Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey all,

I am out to everyone now and have been on T for 2.5 months but I still look small and feminine. My friends are pretty awesome about names and pronouns and if they slip up I will either let it go or kindly say the proper word [either he, him, his, or my name]. What kills me is when strangers misgender me. It's one thing to be misgendered during a transaction you will walk away from, but what about recurring interactions? For example, when you are out at a restaurant or a bar and the server is misgendering you and you know they will continue doing it for the next hour. How do you correct them? Does anyone have any polite, or funny, phrases they say to correct strangers without sounding like a jerk? Or do you ignore it? Ignoring it is getting harder and harder for me.

I Dont make a fuss, as long as im not being Ridicueld, insulted or worse im fine with it for now.

Out with freinds last mounth, the waitress at the resturant we went to called me he, and continued to do so, however  after a conversation with her about an apropriate toiled for me to use, she swiched to mis maam.

Other times if im being misgendered, i sometime let my freinds answer for me, hearing someone els reffer to you as your preffered pronoune can go a long way to getting the message across without pulling them up over it.

I correct anybody really. It seems to help me. I try to be polite. "That'd be sir, thank you".

--Jay

I just correct them. If they say, "she," I say, "he" and stuff like that. Usually, they're too worried about looking like a jerk themselves to think I'm one.

If you are in a restaurant, you can always put in your order and then stand up and ask where the men's room is.

I usually would say something like "It's he, actually" or "Oops! I'm a guy!"

Once, a clerk called me "ma'am" while I was waiting in line, and I simply said, "Ma'am? ???" in an exaggerated tone. We all had a good laugh over it.

Quote from: aleon515 on May 18, 2014, 01:50:40 PM
I correct anybody really. It seems to help me. I try to be polite. "That'd be sir, thank you".

--Jay

I like this one. Seems polite but also to the point.

Most of the time I was too chicken to correct people. The last time I did (7 or 8 mos ago after a long time of not being misgendered), the woman flat out ignored me. So I pressed the issue because I was in a bad mood. I said "you just called me ma'am. I am not a woman." And she sort of went "oh don't pay any attention to me." lol.

Just correct them politely the first time they say it. I'm still working on my voice and it passes (I guess) for face to face but not so much on the phone. I rang to book a restaurant recently:

Me: Hello, my name is Grace.
Them: Hello, sir, how can I help you?
Me: That's "madam", thank you.
Them: oh sorry, what did you say your name was again?
Me: Grace.
Them: Apologies, madam, I though you said "Chris".

(Not that women aren't called Chris too!! A good reason to avoid using gender neutral names I guess.)

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 18, 2014, 06:50:45 PM
Just correct them politely the first time they say it. I'm still working on my voice and it passes (I guess) for face to face but not so much on the phone. I rang to book a restaurant recently:

Me: Hello, my name is Grace.
Them: Hello, sir, how can I help you?
Me: That's "madam", thank you.
Them: oh sorry, what did you say your name was again?
Me: Grace.
Them: Apologies, madam, I though you said "Chris".

(Not that women aren't called Chris too!! A good reason to avoid using gender neutral names I guess.)

I feel that.

The ironic thing is when my phone company calls, They say Hello madam can i speak with a Mr (old name) (surname) regarding this acount, so i say this is them. They nearly choke on their words thinking they just insulted me.

It only happens with calls concerning anything to do with my old name though.

My name's Chris. Maybe I should use Christopher as my nickname!

One time I'm in Walgreens, and the lady ma'ams me. And I said, "It's sir the last time I checked." And the guy in back of me laughs at this, which I take to mean the two of us are laughing about very different things. :)

--Jay

The last time I was at the store and an old lady said "excuse me oneesan (sister)" and I looked around and asked "who, me?" The lady looked at me, laughed and said "oh sorry about that sonny. You're too handsome to be oneesan, aren't you?"

Of course, here I can use the masculine "boku" or "ore" for I.

I was asked once about a year ago if I was "watashi" or "boku". I laughed and said "ore!" The girl cracked up laughing and told me I wasn't old enough or used up enough to be ore since I was too cute.

I have a lot of misgendering going on as well right now, my voice actually passes me at times until they see me in person (say the drive through) and then it's like oh you're a chick.. *facepalms* I'll get the courage someday to say something, most times I just ignore it.

I would always correct them. Usually politely, and with a bit of humour wherever possible... but if they'd been condescending or misogynistic whilst misgendering me I would give them a rude response. I'm not one for worrying about whether I should spare some stranger's feelings: they've caused the awkwardness by presuming my gender without my permission; if they get a brusque response then that's perfectly reasonable, IMHO.

So I used to do a bit of method acting and put myself in the shoes of a cisguy. As a cisguy, how would I react if somebody called me 'madam'? The answer is: I would probably be a bit stunned that anybody could make such a mistake. I might be offended, I might even get argumentative or violent (although that is not my way, and I don't recommend it)... but I would definitely feel that my manhood had been called into question. After a lifetime of having their masculinity and ego reinforced by society, most cisguys won't just let that slide.

The last time this happened to me was in a busy queue in a coffee shop: I gave a large order to the barista and she said "Would you like a carrier for your drinks, madam?". I stood there shocked for a second and stared at her, wide-eyed and open-mouthed. Then I looked down worriedly towards my crotch area and said "'Madam'?!? I should bloody well hope not!" and I made a joke about now wanting to go to the bathroom to check that nothing important had gone missing. Because you know, that's what a cisguy might do in this situation. Ha ha, oh how I LOLed. Sigh.

Anyway, the beauty of this approach is that my confidence carried it off. I'd only been on T for about 4 months so my voice, whilst dropping, was a bit borderline. And I wasn't packing, so if anybody had actually bothered to check out my crotch there wouldn't have been anything there to back up my swagger. But the other customers in the queue had a laugh with me and backed me up, and the cashier was apologetic. Using humour not only defused the situation, but I left that coffee shop feeling 180 degrees different than I would've done had I not questioned the misgendering.

I must say though: it does get better with time.

Quote from: Ayden on May 19, 2014, 12:02:52 AM
The last time I was at the store and an old lady said "excuse me oneesan (sister)" and I looked around and asked "who, me?" The lady looked at me, laughed and said "oh sorry about that sonny. You're too handsome to be oneesan, aren't you?"

Of course, here I can use the masculine "boku" or "ore" for I.

I was asked once about a year ago if I was "watashi" or "boku". I laughed and said "ore!" The girl cracked up laughing and told me I wasn't old enough or used up enough to be ore since I was too cute.

I like that response Ayden. Are you currently living in Japan?

There's a couple things I try to keep in mind. One, unless it's deliberate misgendering, people are trying to be polite by saying sir or ma'am. Second, cis people get misgendered sometimes too, mouth misfires happen. Example, the last several customers in line were all assumed to be the same gender and the cashier goes on autopilot.

If I think the situation calls for it I try to keep it to something simple, e.g. "How can I help you, ma'am?", "Uhh... [baffled look] thanks, but [it's sir/I'm a guy]."

If the situation doesn't really call for correcting someone, I mentally repeat what they said but with the correct terms, reminding myself it's an honest mistake on their part.

I realize that MOST people are just being polite. I don't try to put them down but it's useful for them to think that they could be using these and misgendering people. I think the assumption that you can easily tell is not true. So call it my little tiny educational campaign. :)
 
There's a special place in hell for those who *intentionally* misgender you. I've had that where I believe the person knows and he/she (usually she for some reason) goes out of their way to misgender you. I think they are telling you they don't approve of your "choice".

--Jay

QuoteThere's a special place in hell for those who *intentionally* misgender you. I've had that where I believe the person knows and he/she (usually she for some reason) goes out of their way to misgender you. I think they are telling you they don't approve of your "choice".

True, Jay -- one level below the surface. But I think if one scratches a bit farther below the surface, one may find someone who's just profoundly uncomfortable with the whole thing. Such people may be educable...

Or perhaps I'm just being optimistic.

Quote from: Tysilio on May 19, 2014, 01:47:18 PM
True, Jay -- one level below the surface. But I think if one scratches a bit farther below the surface, one may find someone who's just profoundly uncomfortable with the whole thing. Such people may be educable...

Or perhaps I'm just being optimistic.

No, I think you are correct re: some people are educable. But some aren't. Not sure I want to stick around and wait for them. IF they are friends or family, I'd give some time. I had one friend who seemed to take some time. She did come around another did not.


--Jay

Quote from: makipu on May 19, 2014, 08:39:40 AM
I like that response Ayden. Are you currently living in Japan?

Yes. I live in Osaka, the kitchen of heaven. :D

This is why I never use "sir" or "ma'am" or similar gender titles. Sometimes you never know, even myself being transgender sometimes I can't tell what sex a person is, not that it matter because its unimportant to me that I know. If you don't use gender pronouns or titles, no problem getting anything wrong and possibly offending anyone, well, except those that expect you to refer to them as such. But I'm not a very talkative sort so with strangers every word out of my mouth is blunt and as few as possible.

I don't get misgendered much anymore and if I have I must've not payed any attention (or simply can't remember). I do remember when first starting on my journey though, I was misgendered a lot, but only very rarely innocently by strangers, it bothered me a lot but its not their fault, they are just calling it as it seems to them, so most of the time while I didn't let it show outwardly, I did take it to heart, it hurt because I wasn't passing well enough, yet. Many times I got me into crying fits once I was alone and still thinking about it. And then of coarse their were those that did it purposely to call you out, mostly ignore those bothersome gnats.

How 'bout this, being misgendered before even coming out and living as the gender you are supposed to be. Got two examples that I can recollect and still amuse me.

There was this one time long ago while at work stocking shelves (toy store), I got mistaken for a girl. But this was at least a couple years before I even did anything towards becoming one. This big muscular dude comes up behind me and refers to me as "ma'am" and asks me about something (I long forgotten what). But when I turned around he was totally surprised to see I was a dude as well, just had really long hair. He apologies (over and over again). I shrug it off, no big deal. But he's like, "That doesn't bother you?, Heck, if someone called me ma'am I'd kick their ass." So after I helped him, I'm thinking to myself, "Does that mean I should've beat the crap out of him?" Silly, nonsense people are.

Another time was when this old lady asked for something (again at work, same job, and again can't remember what now as that was so many years ago), but it was down the arts & crafts isle. Anyway, I found what it was she was looking for, she was so happy. Get this, again not yet even showing my feminine side in any way, but had long hair, as well as some facial hair. After she helped, she replies to me, first telling me how she had asked one of the other guys in the store about where this item was but he didn't know (apparently didn't feel like helping her), several thank you's my way, and "It takes a woman". That one really amused me, she must've had really bad eyesight to not notice all the hair on my face (so I was the bearded lady). But see, that's it, it didn't bother me, not in the least.

Odd how at that time me still outwardly appearing as a guy but being misgendered as a girl didn't bother me in the least, but once I had started to live as one, even one mistaken misgendering tore me up inside, because I was a girl, not a guy, never was.

Quote from: Megan Joanne on May 20, 2014, 01:07:51 AM
Odd how at that time me still outwardly appearing as a guy but being misgendered as a girl didn't bother me in the least, but once I had started to live as one, even one mistaken misgendering tore me up inside, because I was a girl, not a guy, never was.

It's not odd, it makes perfect sense. They happened to correctly gender you despite outward appearances.
I had a few experiences like that pre-transition too. At the time it both brightened my day and confused me. I wondered what was different, what made a few people call me young man, boy, etc. while most people referred to me as female.

I use "sir" and "ma'am" if I know that's what someone prefers, otherwise I try to avoid it.
Some people may be required to use words like that at work for the sake of being "professional".

it depends, i know people dont do it intentionally they are just tryin to be respectful, I actually caught myself for a sec once, a transgenderred woman came into my work, looked totally like a chick until she spoke and the voice gave her away, although I know it was a she, it took me a sec to register to myself, this is a woman not a man, although the second might of felt long to me because I had two other customers waiting for my attention, I managed to say her and mam, so even being transgender, I can see where your mind wants to say something else out of just reflex, then what it should be, so i normally don't get to mad at people who at first might use a wrong pronoun

Quote from: blink on May 19, 2014, 10:30:47 AM
There's a couple things I try to keep in mind. One, unless it's deliberate misgendering, people are trying to be polite by saying sir or ma'am.

I'm sure others will correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that even trans people are aware of this, thanks.

As for actual advice:

I just correct everyone, tailored to the situation.  At this point, about seven years in, I can just laugh it off, most of the time.  There's always that one person every month or so who feels oddly compelled to be an especial donkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_ass) about it, and I'll get rude right back (or at least demand to speak to a manager, etc...), but most of the time it's really not personal, so it's best for me to just laugh it off.  Friends are trying (yes, some are still trying --I'm one of those people who felt it best of fall off the face of the planet for a few years, keeping only a handful of people around, while I got my stuff together), and strangers are usually just making a quick guess based on what they can see --and I'm 4'11½", I have long hair with streaks of violet, and I'm an old-school Goth who feels more naked without eye makeup than without jeans, and i'm fat with the accompanying sof features, so even though (oddly enough) I got gendered *correctly* more consistently after I just gave up on "butching up for the sake of passing" (so I could focus instead on being the kind of man I always saw myself as, and thus be much happier), it does still happen that people will see one or all of those arguably "feminine" features, first, and think "woman" rather than "effeminate man".

And yeah, it does happen to cis- people, as well, but the difference is that when it happens to a trans- person, especially someone pretty early on in the physical/medical transition, it hurts ten times worse.  Cis people are more likely to laugh it off and forget about it, when misgendering happens --but trans people are more likely to feel like this has ruined their entire day or week, cos it's like "hey, I'm doing all this to meet society's standards, and it's still not good enough!"  It sucks, I know, I've been there, and remembering "well, it happens to cis- people, too!" is no real comfort when the fifth person in a row at the store just used the wrong pronoun on you and now your day is ruined.  It took me a good three or four years to get to where I am now, where I *can* laugh it off; hell, I still can't even afford to have my legal name changed in Michigan, so when some-one needs to check my bank card after calling me "sir" and says something about the name, I can *now* just laugh and say "well, Anne Rice's parents named her Howard Allen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Rice), and mine were just as weird, I guess" and no-one seems to notice the "F" three lines down.  It took me years to get where I'm at now, and it was hard deal with everyone else's ideas of what I might be before I got here.  When you get to a point where you're happier with who you are, it'll be easier to deal with.  Maybe therapy will help you before then, or maybe advice on an Internet forum, or maybe just giving up on trying to live up to some kind of "transmasculine ideal".  I know what helped me get to that happier place, but I can't predict that for everyone else.

Until then, I do know that getting angry at everyone who misgenders you won't help, and it's also better to correct people who are wrong than to just let it go.  I say the latter especially cos some studies do show that forcing oneself to be assertive in little ways like that can actually help build real confidence --and it also helps to teach others not to assume things based on a softly rounded face or short stature, etc....  It's tedious work, but based on behaviour modification studies, it seems to help more often than not.

Quote from: Fairy In Boots on May 21, 2014, 04:05:00 PM
And yeah, it does happen to cis- people, as well, but the difference is that when it happens to a trans- person, especially someone pretty early on in the physical/medical transition, it hurts ten times worse.  Cis people are more likely to laugh it off and forget about it, when misgendering happens --but trans people are more likely to feel like this has ruined their entire day or week, cos it's like "hey, I'm doing all this to meet society's standards, and it's still not good enough!"  It sucks, I know, I've been there, and remembering "well, it happens to cis- people, too!" is no real comfort when the fifth person in a row at the store just used the wrong pronoun on you and now your day is ruined.

Yeah because I do this just because I'm too weak not to bow to societies standards, nothing to do with having dysphoria and trying to keep my sanity at all...

Heck, I've been misgendered with my full beard and I look nothing remotely like F any more. Mostly I think it is clerks not paying attention, and I'm short, so if they don't look at me, they might say ma'am, but then are like oops when they finally do look at me.

Otherwise I try to keep it humorous, like Jay (the other Jay) and say I'm a guy, at least the last time I checked, or just a polite, 'That's sir.'

Mostly I get misgendered on the phone because my voice sucks.  It's not feminine, but many women have deeper voices like mine, so I can see how they get confused.  I just say, it's Sir, and they apologize.

And always remember that cis people get misgendered a lot, also.  My own kids do.  We're obviously more sensitive to it.

Now, early transition is a different thing, esp, with family and friends slipping up.  Some  them need more constant reminders, because they're operating out of habit, but also visual cues (I, myself, have inadvertently misgendered a few trans people who were out to me because they were presenting as their old gender - one woman had to for work purposes and it was over a year before I saw her as herself - so brain sees person who looks male and defaulted to he when I knew she was a she.) 

I got a little angry the other day, and just snapped at someone. It was rather funny as the poor guy (haha think he was a guy) started following me around and trying to help me calling me sir about 100 times. Poor dude. :)
I agree. I think my size probably gets me misgendered a LOT, but I still get read as male MOST of the time.

--Jay

Am I the only person who's never really corrected pronouns? Early/pre-transition I didn't exactly want to go around outing myself as trans to a bunch of random strangers, which is what it would have amounted to when I didn't really pass. I mean, some would've taken me at my word, since I got read as male sometimes then, but some wouldn't and it didn't seem worth it. It didn't matter that much to me whether other people saw me as male or female. When I was just starting t I ended up in this weird situation where 90% of the people at my school assumed I was male and then the other 10% assumed I was female, and neither group ever caught on to the other. I overheard a conversation where two people were trying to figure out if they both knew me and they eventually decided I was two different people. And despite this I never felt like correcting the people who thought I was female. I just thought it was kind of funny.

I did ask my family to start using male pronouns in public once I was on t for awhile, mainly because it would've been really weird and awkward for everyone if they didn't. That's the only time I ever asked for certain pronouns.

I'm so glad this thread is around right now. Today, I got a message from the bank that there was fraud on my account. I called the number. They asked me if this was Christopher xxxx. I said yes. But then the lady kept calling me miss and I never corrected her. So then later I had to call the bank again and this time I was talking to a guy. I identified myself and explained why I was calling. He says "your name is Christopher?" even though we just established that.I say yes. Then a minute later he says miss. That was the only time but I didn't correct him. And I was talking in a low voice on purpose. I didn't think my voice was that female. I'm so frustrated with myself. I didn't correct either of them. And yes, I'm early one and it does make me feel like I'll never pass :P

Quote from: Fairy In Boots on May 21, 2014, 04:05:00 PM
I'm sure others will correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that even trans people are aware of this, thanks.

Social cues are badly limited in text, so I'm trying not to assume, but this sounded like unnecessary attitude-slinging to me. What I'm getting from your reply is that you think this was something too basic to be worth a single sentence to mention. As someone who has needed some "basic" social things explained to me that supposedly "everyone knows", I say this. Every piece of advice won't be useful to every person, but there is always someone out there who could use an explanation of something. It doesn't mean that person is stupid, and it doesn't mean the person doing the explaining is trying to be condescending. If something I said isn't useful to someone, they hopefully feel free to disregard it. I mentioned the things I did because they have been helpful to me and might help someone else too.

And intellectually knowing the words are meant to be polite, and actually taking that into account when responding, are two separate things. I've seen too many comments online promoting being rude and nasty as a good response to even accidental misgendering. That means there are people who, at least in that situation, respond to attempted politeness with deliberate rudeness.

Quote from: blink on May 23, 2014, 10:20:18 AM

And intellectually knowing the words are meant to be polite, and actually taking that into account when responding, are two separate things. I've seen too many comments online promoting being rude and nasty as a good response to even accidental misgendering. That means there are people who, at least in that situation, respond to attempted politeness with deliberate rudeness.

Let me guess, Tumblr? I didn't mean to be angry to the guy, it just came out. But I don't think it's a *good* response. That said, we're all human.

--Jay

Quote from: Rossiter on May 22, 2014, 04:51:40 PM
Am I the only person who's never really corrected pronouns? Early/pre-transition I didn't exactly want to go around outing myself as trans to a bunch of random strangers, which is what it would have amounted to when I didn't really pass.

When I was early on T and in the androgynous zone (as I call it), I let strangers call it as they saw it. I figured that when people started seeing me as a man, I wouldn't need to correct anyone. That's exactly how it went.

I remember correcting a stranger only once or twice (a few times, people have corrected themselves). Once, I was standing in line and was called "ma'am" after I had been consistently read as male for a good couple of years--and I had a beard to boot. Turns out the person was just on autopilot. I reacted humorously.

But I did sometimes correct people I knew, people who definitely should have known better--especially if everyone else saw me as male. One person at work I corrected once and then left to her own devices. She wasn't exactly a brain surgeon, so I left her to make her own transition in her own time. This turned out to be exactly the right way to handle the situation although I found it trying at times.

I didn't correct anyone when I was in that gray zone of transition, either.  I didn't bother with family until I had my name change and was passing.  I didn't bother at work until I was passing and legal name change, and it was still a couple of months before I came out to them.  I only corrected strangers later and if it mattered.  I obviously correct people now.

Quote from: aleon515 on May 23, 2014, 11:45:17 AM

Let me guess, Tumblr? I didn't mean to be angry to the guy, it just came out. But I don't think it's a *good* response. That said, we're all human.

--Jay

To clarify, Jay, that remark wasn't meant to be directed at you at all. It did not seem like you were endorsing deliberate rudeness, and you're right. We all snap sometimes without meaning to. But yeah, some of it on Tumblr, some of it elsewhere. Doesn't say great things about Tumblr that it's so quick to come to mind for this kind of thing, huh?

Quote from: lxndr on May 22, 2014, 06:35:41 AM
Yeah because I do this just because I'm too weak not to bow to societies standards, nothing to do with having dysphoria and trying to keep my sanity at all...

So...  what's the biggest reason it wanes on your sanity?  I'm guessing you and your pet (if applicable) seldom have an issue with guessing what gender you are; if you do have issues with guessing your own gender and misgendering yourself at the store, then feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that the standards and expectations of society do play some part in this --if it didn't, I'd seriously go out dressed like Divine every day, but because that would get me misgendered more than now, because the expectation is that men who are Queens only dress like that at certain times and places, and that misgendering at that rate would tear at my sanity and bring the dysphoria back in full force, I don't, because interacting with others isn't just about me, it's about other people, too.  I mean, heck, part of the reason I had so much dysphoria previously (and do still get those moods, on occasion, just no-where near as much as I used to) is because other people, especially those clerks at the stores and hair cutters and what-not, couldn't see the real me, which is male, they saw a 4'11" stature, a 38K bra size, no evidence of having shaved off facial hair, and they heard a voice that sounded like Jeaneane Garafalo's and could sing a clear dramatic mezzo-soprano.

The way people treated me is the biggest factor of what affected me, and they treated me that way because what they saw and heard didn't match their expectations for a "male" presentation by a pretty wide margin.  The external affects the internal, the physical affects the mental/emotional/spiritual, and that's generally true for most people.  If that's not true for you, and how people treat you has genuinely no effect on your mood/sanity/psyche, well, then, clearly you're an exception, but if all that does have an effect on you, then what good is it going to do to deny the role that society's expectations play?  I'm genuinely curious.

And I'm explaining this because everything I've seen to this point in my life, in myself and others, points to its truth.  Yeah, I'm ultimately transitioning more for myself than others (and the same goes for every TS people I personally know), but because humans are social creatures, how our societies react to us does come up and affect how we feel, at least from time-to-time.

Quote from: Rossiter on May 22, 2014, 04:51:40 PM
Am I the only person who's never really corrected pronouns? Early/pre-transition I didn't exactly want to go around outing myself as trans to a bunch of random strangers, which is what it would have amounted to when I didn't really pass.  [...snip...]

I did ask my family to start using male pronouns in public once I was on t for awhile, mainly because it would've been really weird and awkward for everyone if they didn't. That's the only time I ever asked for certain pronouns.

If that's what works for you, great.  It just seems clear that it doesn't work for some, which is where advice on how to deal with the situation comes from.  But hey, if that's honestly what works for you, rock on.  :)

Quote from: christopher on May 23, 2014, 12:47:18 AM
I'm so glad this thread is around right now. Today, I got a message from the bank that there was fraud on my account. I called the number. They asked me if this was Christopher xxxx. I said yes. But then the lady kept calling me miss and I never corrected her. So then later I had to call the bank again and this time I was talking to a guy. I identified myself and explained why I was calling. He says "your name is Christopher?" even though we just established that.I say yes. Then a minute later he says miss. That was the only time but I didn't correct him. And I was talking in a low voice on purpose. I didn't think my voice was that female. I'm so frustrated with myself. I didn't correct either of them. And yes, I'm early one and it does make me feel like I'll never pass :P

If you're less than a year into HRT, trust me, it *will* change your voice.  I still get "miss" or "ma'am" on the phone occasionally, even going on seven years in, but less so when i first wake up (I guess "groggy" sounds like "male" to more people? wtf;idk).  In most people, the vocal chords don't start to thicken until at least six months in (based on my own experiences and what I've noticed from the report of others in various places over the last decade), and the voice doesn't really seem to "mature" until about two to four years in (as a corrolary, most cis- boys start to experience voice changes around the age of 13, so go watch reruns of shows like Malcolm In the Middle, actually, that's a great one, cos you pretty much watch Frankie Muniz progress from the ages of 12/13 to 18, and his voice gets significantly different about every 18-24 months), it's not a fast process at all, but it WILL get better. :-)

Quote from: blink on May 23, 2014, 10:20:18 AM
Social cues are badly limited in text, so I'm trying not to assume, but this sounded like unnecessary attitude-slinging to me. [...snip...]

And intellectually knowing the words are meant to be polite, and actually taking that into account when responding, are two separate things. I've seen too many comments online promoting being rude and nasty as a good response to even accidental misgendering. That means there are people who, at least in that situation, respond to attempted politeness with deliberate rudeness.

Would it be seen as a gesture of good will to assure you that I wasn't slinging unnecessary attitude?

:-)

Quote from: Fairy In Boots on May 24, 2014, 01:32:24 AM
If you're less than a year into HRT, trust me, it *will* change your voice.  I still get "miss" or "ma'am" on the phone occasionally, even going on seven years in, but less so when i first wake up (I guess "groggy" sounds like "male" to more people? wtf;idk).  In most people, the vocal chords don't start to thicken until at least six months in (based on my own experiences and what I've noticed from the report of others in various places over the last decade), and the voice doesn't really seem to "mature" until about two to four years in (as a corrolary, most cis- boys start to experience voice changes around the age of 13, so go watch reruns of shows like Malcolm In the Middle, actually, that's a great one, cos you pretty much watch Frankie Muniz progress from the ages of 12/13 to 18, and his voice gets significantly different about every 18-24 months), it's not a fast process at all, but it WILL get better. :-)

thank you. I don't want to make this thread about me, since I'm not the one that started it but I do appreciate your comment. Intellectually I know it takes time and it will come and all that. It's just been a hard week on a lot of levels. So, I will hold on to "it Will get better" and get through the now.

Quote from: Fairy In Boots on May 24, 2014, 01:32:24 AMthe voice doesn't really seem to "mature" until about two to four years in

I am just going through another fairly significant shift and have picked up some noticeable resonance. For the past two weeks, I have been clearing my throat obsessively, and my voice has been squeaking and grating and cutting out on me. Once again, I have to learn how to speak. It's glorious and maddening all at once.

I'm a bit over five years on T, but I was on finasteride for two of those years. I figure that I had a fair bit of catching up to do; I had a pretty big change shortly after stopping finasteride, then a sequence of very small changes, and now this one. Too many to keep track of, but I'm definitely one of those guys whose voices are continually shifting. I rarely hear from other guys who have had the same experience, so I wonder whether I'm an anomaly.

Quote from: Fairy In Boots on May 24, 2014, 01:32:24 AM
So...  what's the biggest reason it wanes on your sanity?  I'm guessing you and your pet (if applicable) seldom have an issue with guessing what gender you are; if you do have issues with guessing your own gender and misgendering yourself at the store, then feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that the standards and expectations of society do play some part in this --if it didn't, I'd seriously go out dressed like Divine every day, but because that would get me misgendered more than now, because the expectation is that men who are Queens only dress like that at certain times and places, and that misgendering at that rate would tear at my sanity and bring the dysphoria back in full force, I don't, because interacting with others isn't just about me, it's about other people, too.  I mean, heck, part of the reason I had so much dysphoria previously (and do still get those moods, on occasion, just no-where near as much as I used to) is because other people, especially those clerks at the stores and hair cutters and what-not, couldn't see the real me, which is male, they saw a 4'11" stature, a 38K bra size, no evidence of having shaved off facial hair, and they heard a voice that sounded like Jeaneane Garafalo's and could sing a clear dramatic mezzo-soprano.

The way people treated me is the biggest factor of what affected me, and they treated me that way because what they saw and heard didn't match their expectations for a "male" presentation by a pretty wide margin.  The external affects the internal, the physical affects the mental/emotional/spiritual, and that's generally true for most people.  If that's not true for you, and how people treat you has genuinely no effect on your mood/sanity/psyche, well, then, clearly you're an exception, but if all that does have an effect on you, then what good is it going to do to deny the role that society's expectations play?  I'm genuinely curious.

And I'm explaining this because everything I've seen to this point in my life, in myself and others, points to its truth.  Yeah, I'm ultimately transitioning more for myself than others (and the same goes for every TS people I personally know), but because humans are social creatures, how our societies react to us does come up and affect how we feel, at least from time-to-time.

I'm not saying that society doesn't have any bearing on my need to transition at all, but it's not the main motivator in any way, and that's what your post seemed to be suggesting. If I was alone for the rest of my life then I'd still need to transition so that I didn't lose my mind, because of physical dysphoria. Even if I remained in the environment I am in now for the rest of my life where everyone knows that I'm trans but still treats me as male then I'd still need to transition, because of physical dysphoria.

I've never personally felt the desire to dress or present as anything other than the typical male. Not because of what society says but just because it doesn't appeal to me. Even if it did appeal to me I wouldn't be able to do it, not because if what people would interpret me as, but because of what it would highlight to me before I even stepped out of my room.

I still have a crappy voice after nearly 5 years.  It's wimpy, scratchy, and frog-like.  I can't project well.  I hate it.  Not that I liked my voice before, either, but it seems like it's in this constant state of puberty and can't decide what to do.  Some days I'm hoarse, other days alright, but it's never good.  Maybe I should consider a vocal coach.

Quote from: blink on May 23, 2014, 08:44:54 PM
To clarify, Jay, that remark wasn't meant to be directed at you at all. It did not seem like you were endorsing deliberate rudeness, and you're right. We all snap sometimes without meaning to. But yeah, some of it on Tumblr, some of it elsewhere. Doesn't say great things about Tumblr that it's so quick to come to mind for this kind of thing, huh?

I didn't think you were referring to what I said, but I would clarify that I didn't really mean to and wouldn't advocate it, but yes we're all human. Yeah funny thing re: Tumblr. Think of all the obnoxious and hateful  statements and studied rudeness  by trans people and most of them are in Tumblr. I think it's the arm pit of the net, though perhaps that's too generous. :)

--Jay

<tangent alert>

never done tumblr. guess that might be a good choice.

<we now return you to your regular program>

Hey all, I want to thank you for all the helpful comments on this thread. I'm glad I posted it because it looks like something everyone can weigh in on.

Part of my reasoning for wanting to correct people is that I am starting a career while I don't 100% pass. I need to get used to correcting people so my future coworkers don't misgender me for for the first few months before I start passing more often. Also, for my sanity, I'm sick of being referred to with female pronouns and I have no problem speaking up about it. As many people have suggested, I think a quick, polite correction will work the best for me as I don't want to be rude or start an argument with anyone over this topic.

Again, these responses are awesome and have helped me build the confidence to advocate for myself. I'm sorry I seemed to post this and disappear, but that's an unfortunate symptom of being a graduate student.

Quote from: christopher on May 24, 2014, 02:07:25 AM
thank you. I don't want to make this thread about me, since I'm not the one that started it but I do appreciate your comment. Intellectually I know it takes time and it will come and all that. It's just been a hard week on a lot of levels. So, I will hold on to "it Will get better" and get through the now.

Does it help to know that it's completely normal to have "those weeks"?   :)  Barring some inescapable catastrophe (and most catastrophes only seem inescapable), you should do fine.  I'm not saying those day/weeks/etc... will completely go away (they rarely completely go away, and I'm actually suspicious of people who claim they *never* get them, anymore) but you're more likely to get less of them, and less of them still with every year.  If it helps, the mantra of "one day at a time" helps out sometimes, cos until the next day arrives, that's all you have, focus on that and what is within your power to improve your mood --life is more about managing what comes to us in the best ways we can than about "making it happen", like so many insist.  Sometimes bad days, weeks, or months, or even years come at us, and there's little we can do to fix it --maybe you're stuck in a job for reasons, but you can come home and watch a DVD that always lifts your mood a little, or maybe you sold the DVD player of computer to make the rent, so you can at least play with your cat or dog --or maybe you have allergies, so maybe going to the library or "window shopping" at the mall or downtown shops might help.

The misgendering hurts, I'm certainly not going to deny that, but sometimes shifting focus from that to something more pleasant can help.  And for a lot of people, working on being assertive of one's prefered pronouns in public really does help --and if you can't do that at the cashier at Ralph's/Kroger yet, invite a friend to do some role-playing exercises in it, it certainly couldn't hurt.

Quote from: Whynaut on May 24, 2014, 12:38:14 PM
Hey all, I want to thank you for all the helpful comments on this thread. I'm glad I posted it because it looks like something everyone can weigh in on.

Part of my reasoning for wanting to correct people is that I am starting a career while I don't 100% pass. I need to get used to correcting people so my future coworkers don't misgender me for for the first few months before I start passing more often. Also, for my sanity, I'm sick of being referred to with female pronouns and I have no problem speaking up about it. As many people have suggested, I think a quick, polite correction will work the best for me as I don't want to be rude or start an argument with anyone over this topic.

Again, these responses are awesome and have helped me build the confidence to advocate for myself. I'm sorry I seemed to post this and disappear, but that's an unfortunate symptom of being a graduate student.

Oh, working on your studies is an excellent reasoning for neglecting Internet fora for periods of time.  ;D