Susan's Place Transgender Resources

QuoteDeuteronomy 22:5
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
5 "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment; for all who do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

I am interested to see peoples opinion on this part of the bible...

I'm not a man, so I better stop wearing men's clothes!

That helped keep me in denial for over a decade after I stumbled onto it because before I found support groups like Susan's, I found that verse when I first got the Internet. And I knew all the dismissive lines, "People pick and choose what lines they read in the Bible" "The Old Testament isn't for Evangelical Christians like us." but I couldn't dismiss because I couldn't take the risk on being damned to Hell.

I never became an Atheist while working through finding that verse, yet, I did change the God believe in.

The article below is not about transsexual people but can be easily applied to us i.e. this commandment most likely refers to pagan worship.

QuoteDeuteronomy:22:5 says: "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor
shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God." Like many of the statutes, this law had to do with pagan customs of the time, and as we will see, does not refer to women wearing pants. The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary explains:

"Disguises were assumed at certain times in pagan temples. Maimonides...mentions that a man attired in a coloured female dress, in honour of Venus, Ashtaroth, or Astarte, and a woman equipped in armour, worshipped at the shrine of the statue of Mars...

"Asiatics, when they engaged in the worship of Ashtaroth, were accustomed, according to Philocorus, quoted by Townley (in his edition of Maimonides, note 33), to exchange the male and female dresses. In fact, all idolators confounded the sexes of their deities—representing them sometimes as male, at other times as female; and hence, their worshippers, male and female, fell gradually into the custom, which became extensively prevalent, of changing their attire in adaptation to the sex of a particular divinity."

God's command to Israel forbade the people from incorporating pagan religious rites into true worship. In spite of this instruction, today's Christianity commonly mixes paganism in with the worship of Christ.

Does Deuteronomy:22:5 forbid women from wearing pants? No, it doesn't. In fact, even
men in the Middle East through the history of the Old and New Testaments did not wear pants; they wore a robelike garment. However, there is an underlying principle that applies today. Men should dress in an appropriately masculine manner and women should dress in an appropriately feminine manner. Clothing manufacturers make pants designed for men and pants designed for women.

Source: http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/does-bible-forbid-women-wearing-pants

Quote from: ashley_thomas on May 26, 2014, 08:04:52 AM
I'm not a man, so I better stop wearing men's clothes!

A very good point!  :laugh:

Born again Christians are not bound by the specifications of Torah (Genesis -> Deuteronomy or "the Law"). Romans 7 verses 4 and 5 make it clear that Christ died on the cross to release Christians from the law. A Christian still adhering to the law negates His sacrifice.

Regarding Deuteronomy 22:5 - I have read descriptions of this verse that say it pertains to pagan practices, or it may be talking about military service - the avoidance of military service by men dressing as a female, or females dressing as men to be able to fight. I can't find the internet article that I was looking for that describes this very clearly at the moment, but I found another one that is pretty close:

http://pinkessence.com/group/FAITH/forum/topics/deuteronomy-225-crossdressing

Also, don't forget that the admonition in verse 22:5 is very near some other admonitions that are generally not in vogue these days, such as Deuteronomy 22:11 that says, "You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together", and Deuteronomy 14 where there are admonitions about what to eat and what not to eat. And of course in Deuteronomy 22 verses 21-24 talks about stoning family members to death for various transgressions.

The law applied in brutal times to the Jews and not to today's Christians. The law has been replaced by a personal relationship with Jesus Christ by Jesus dying on the cross.

So, if someone throws that verse at you find out if they adhere strictly to the other tenants of Deuteronomy, or if they are just cherry picking verses with context and meaning that they don't understand to use against you.

The old testament laws were brought about specifically by the Hebrews request (later referred to as the Jews) when during their sojourn in the desert following their escape from Egypt they specifically asked Moses for a set of laws they could follow and said, Whatever God wants us to do we can do it!" So Moses went up on the mountain and stayed for awhile and God gave him the ten commandments and told him that their failure to follow would require the issue of blood for forgiveness and that even at that time the Hebrews had already broken the first one as they were worshipping a golden calf that they had just made. The entire gist of the old testament from that time forward was to show how the basic nature of mankind had been corrupted and how no one is capable of keeping the law perfectly. I know this because I have broken every one of them myself, The old testament was a yardstick by which we could all measure our failure at keeping those ten commandments which is the basis for all modern civil law.

The answer to that was portrayed in Eden when the original couple listened to another voice and failed a simple test, they hid from the Lord because suddenly they had become self conscious and knew they were naked, so he slew an animal and made coverings for their nakedness. Whether this is allegory or not is irrelevant as it points out that the cover for mankind's nakedness before the eyes of God would require an issue of blood. This became the basis by which the sins of the Jews were rolled back each year when a lamb without blemish was slain and it's blood dripped on the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies in the temple by the High Priest. This then was regarded as righteousness as the Creator of the universe looked ahead in time and saw His only Son crucified on a cross for the sins of all mankind. It was the beginning of a new contract between mankind and God whereby anyone acknowledging their own faults who believes in His Son and trusts that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient coverage for his/her failures in life, will not be judged by the law and will positionally pass from death to eternal life.

I'm not particularly religious and don't attend church but I believe this in my heart to be true and though the sins of all mankind were paid for at that pivotal moment in time, that great gift is only received by entering into that contract willfully on an individual basis and has absolutely nothing to do with what church or synagog anyone belongs to, being a member of any organization is not God's criteria for mankind's salvation. Jesus made that abundantly clear to the Samaritan woman he met at the well when she said, "You Jews worship in the temple but we worship on yonder mountain," He said, "If you only knew who was standing here before you, the day will come when the Father will no longer meet mankind in buildings made of human hands, but will come to him in spirit and in truth" This is a paraphrase but you can get the gist of it all if you're willing.

That verse, in its original language, is about women masquerading as soldiers and men masquerading as women so they can stay home instead of going to war. It doesn't have anything to do with being transgender. The word "man" in this case is "geber" which is used for warriors and strong men who have the ability to go to war.

My family's church interpreted that verse to mean women couldn't wear pants.  I heard people make a lot of arguments about it, like what it actually meant in context of the time it was written, I heard something about military garb or whatever, or that women's pants weren't men's clothing (duh!) but in any case, I do not think it applies to transsexual people.  Maybe it could be used against crossdressers.  It was definitely used against me by my dad when he caught me wearing female clothing when I was a child.  But I mean read the rest of that chapter.  How many of those things are followed by anybody? Do not wear blended cloth? Tassels on your clothing?  All the rest of it?  Why would a church single out this one verse then and ignore the rest?  Just think about that, I won't tell you my opinion.

Anyway, I don't exactly have faith or consider myself at all religious, so that I am coming from that perspective, which I'm sure colors things.

The New Testament makes Deuteronomy 22:5 a moot point really unless one thinks they can keep the entire old testament law and want to personally submit their life to it rather than acknowledge that Christ is the fulfillment of the law and the answer for all human shortcomings (sin), in which case a person denigrates the person of Christ which is an affront to the Creator. Being a nice person and trying to obey the law isn't sufficient of itself and will not draw anyone close to God, it's couched in selfish motivations in the first place since it runs counter to man's basic nature, doing good to others and obedience to the laws we now live under is instead more properly the outflow of a thankful heart to what God has done for us in Christ. That's the bottom line and where the rubber meets the road.

Having been involved in a GLBT Bible Study yesterday where, as the only T out of 40 people, I brought this passage up.  CrowCrow223's quotation is well along the lines of all of the underpinnings of this scripture and the 6 others we discussed at our session lead by one of the senior clergy of my diocese.  The passages were ALL based on separating the groups to whom the writings were directed in their day and time, from other religions that were flourishing at the time around the Christian and Judaic peoples.

Since Christian GLBT people identify first with our church and while a few of us like myself may also follow other spiritual paths at the same time as following Christ and are using those other paths to better understand Christ, not too many of us are participating in the state religion which denies Christ, as these historic religions denied YHWH as being above their deities.

I don't know if anyone has considered this but there is one mediator between man and God, the "man" Christ Jesus. The church is his bride or "woman."

It says the woman shall not put on that which pertaineth unto a man. Not garment, clothing or pants.

The man Christ Jesus has been given an eternal priesthood. He wears the miter of Holiness Unto The Lord.
The woman shall not be holy of herself or attempt to wear his miter as only he is worthy.

He also wears the breastplate of judgment. We as his "woman" are not to put on his breastplate or in other words judge anyone. Only he has the right to judge us.

As for the woman's garment:

The church is his betrothed, maid, damsel and bride. As his "woman" the Lord our "man" or Husband shall not put on our righteousness (filthy rags) or put himself in subjection unto us (veil himself). Our "woman's garment" goes farther but these are just two examples. He is holy, and has all power and say in how his church is operated. We the woman answer to him and not he unto us.

The things I posted are a few of the spiritual aspects.

I just wanted to add a few things.

The word of God says they that receive him he has given power to be the "sons of God."
It also says that we are "soldiers" for Christ.
Then it also says we are his bride.

Having said thus, in the natural I am a man so I won't wear a woman's garment. Not because I esteem one law more than another but just for conscience sake.

Spiritually, when I pray for a word to speak to point out err I come unto him as a soldier. I am seeking that which will point out an err that someone teaches that may lead a babe in Christ astray or damn them.

Also spiritually, when I pray as his betrothed for guidance and his will I am in a spiritual sense coming unto him as a woman. Not a popular view for most cisgender macho heterosexual men.

With all this in mind I come unto him as both male and female depending on what I seek and how much I abase myself. Therefore, I just do the best I can with what I know and trust in his mercy if I am wrong.

Paul wrote not to get too involved in strivings about the law. Many times it leads to confusion and strife.

Our goal should be to hope others see Jesus in us, behold his glory and share it with others and be obedient unto his word as we can while attempting to edify other Christians.

I hope this helps.

I think everyone makes very good points. The one thing about the bible is that it is written through an Inspiration of God but was actually written by the hands of man with possibly prejudices in the minds of the man that wrote certain passages. What exactly did God make you? Is the human body a devine creation of God or is it the Spirit that is the Devine Creation? Male and female he created them. This is talking about us which he created on the fifth day. He created Adam (from mud and dirt) after the Sabbath or seventh day or day of rest. I may be crazy or just totally insane or just a blabbering idiot when I say I take the "male and female he created them" as that we were created in Spirit with both male and female gender aspects. Not from a physical point of view but more Spiritual. I say this because I believe if it was just male or female it would read, "male or female He created them" or "males and females He created them" if what God created was 100% one or the other genderwise.

Me personally, when it comes to Bible passages like that I interpret it as cismen trying to escape the horrors of war, or cisfemales trying to escape the "horrors" of the hearth and venture. Not necissarily God's law but society's perception in the name of God in forcing the physical onto the Spiritual. Unfortunately it doesn't mention anything about feeling female or male and born in the opposite body. But back then, man also had no concept of the earth being round and revolving around the sun either.

Remember that is just the Bible and there were cultures that actually treated transgenders as the gender they felt to be. Does this mean that they are condemned by God? I mean these same people in these different cultures were Created by the same God that created those that worte the Bible.

Anytime a passage in the Bible is used,one MUST know four things,who is the person that is doing the speaking or the writing,to whom is that passage spoken or written to,and what is the setting,and what is the CONTEXT of the passage. If that is NOT done,people can very easily make that passage say something that it was never meant to say. 

So the first thing that needs to be done is who is speaking or writing Deuteronomy? We are told that

Deuteronomy 1

1 These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the wilderness east of the Jordan—that is, in the Arabah—opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. 2 (It takes eleven days to go from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the Mount Seir road.)

3 In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses proclaimed to the Israelites all that the Lord had commanded him concerning them. 4 This was after he had defeated Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon, and at Edrei had defeated Og king of Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth.

So from that it is Moses speaking to whom and when? These are Moses final instructions from God,spoken to the ISRAELITES just before they enter the promised land,after wandering the wilderness for forty years. Moses is NOT addressing this to the Gentiles. Why? Because this is the COVENANT between God and Israel. Israel was promised that IF they obeyed the law they would receive the blessings of the promised land.

Moses then goes on to tell they the WHY

4 Now, Israel, hear the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land the Lord, the God of your ancestors, is giving you. 2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

3 You saw with your own eyes what the Lord did at Baal Peor. The Lord your God destroyed from among you everyone who followed the Baal of Peor, 4 but all of you who held fast to the Lord your God are still alive today.

5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the Lord my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the Lord our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

5 Moses summoned all Israel and said:

Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:

6 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

32 So be careful to do what the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. 33 Walk in obedience to all that the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.

6 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, 2 so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life. 3 Hear, Israel, and be careful to obey so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the Lord, the God of your ancestors, promised you.

20 In the future, when your son asks you, "What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord our God has commanded you?" 21 tell him: "We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 22 Before our eyes the Lord sent signs and wonders—great and terrible—on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. 23 But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land he promised on oath to our ancestors. 24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."

7 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga->-bleeped-<-es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

7 The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. 10 But

those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;
    he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.
11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors. 13 He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land—your grain, new wine and olive oil—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you. 14 You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor will any of your livestock be without young. 15 The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. 16 You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you.

8 Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land the Lord promised on oath to your ancestors. 2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. 4 Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. 5 Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you.

6 Observe the commands of the Lord your God, walking in obedience to him and revering him. 7 For the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land—a land with brooks, streams, and deep springs gushing out into the valleys and hills; 8 a land with wheat and barley, vines and fig trees, pomegranates, olive oil and honey; 9 a land where bread will not be scarce and you will lack nothing; a land where the rocks are iron and you can dig copper out of the hills.

9 Hear, Israel: You are now about to cross the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and stronger than you, with large cities that have walls up to the sky. 2 The people are strong and tall—Anakites! You know about them and have heard it said: "Who can stand up against the Anakites?" 3 But be assured today that the Lord your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you. And you will drive them out and annihilate them quickly, as the Lord has promised you.

4 After the Lord your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The Lord has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.

Cont

11 Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always. 2 Remember today that your children were not the ones who saw and experienced the discipline of the Lord your God: his majesty, his mighty hand, his outstretched arm; 3 the signs he performed and the things he did in the heart of Egypt, both to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his whole country; 4 what he did to the Egyptian army, to its horses and chariots, how he overwhelmed them with the waters of the Red Sea[a] as they were pursuing you, and how the Lord brought lasting ruin on them. 5 It was not your children who saw what he did for you in the wilderness until you arrived at this place, 6 and what he did to Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab the Reubenite, when the earth opened its mouth right in the middle of all Israel and swallowed them up with their households, their tents and every living thing that belonged to them. 7 But it was your own eyes that saw all these great things the Lord has done.

8 Observe therefore all the commands I am giving you today, so that you may have the strength to go in and take over the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, 9 and so that you may live long in the land the Lord swore to your ancestors to give to them and their descendants, a land flowing with milk and honey. 10 The land you are entering to take over is not like the land of Egypt, from which you have come, where you planted your seed and irrigated it by foot as in a vegetable garden. 11 But the land you are crossing the Jordan to take possession of is a land of mountains and valleys that drinks rain from heaven. 12 It is a land the Lord your God cares for; the eyes of the Lord your God are continually on it from the beginning of the year to its end.

13 So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today—to love the Lord your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul— 14 then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and olive oil. 15 I will provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.



22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow—to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him— 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you. 24 Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the Mediterranean Sea. 25 No one will be able to stand against you. The Lord your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go.

26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse— 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the Lord your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known. 29 When the Lord your God has brought you into the land you are entering to possess, you are to proclaim on Mount Gerizim the blessings, and on Mount Ebal the curses. 30 As you know, these mountains are across the Jordan, westward, toward the setting sun, near the great trees of Moreh, in the territory of those Canaanites living in the Arabah in the vicinity of Gilgal. 31 You are about to cross the Jordan to enter and take possession of the land the Lord your God is giving you. When you have taken it over and are living there, 32 be sure that you obey all the decrees and laws I am setting before you today.

Deuteronomy 29

29 [a]These are the terms of the covenant the Lord commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab, in addition to the covenant he had made with them at Horeb.

Part of this goes into the LAND PROMISES given to ISRAEL.

I have to step out for while but I will come back to this.

You're right but Torah is the blueprint for humanity, it's the only divine text we have to be honest, if we believe in the God of Abraham. We can't derive any facts about the Creator other than from the Torah.

Hebrew word used here is "gibbor or "geber" or strong man (man of war), "ish" is man.  This really is about women not fighting and men not shirking military duty.

Jen

I hate to sound like Jonny One Note but this is not applicable to New Testament Christians.

OK. I may sound stupid, but what has the bible really go to do with what we feel inside? I say a woman is a woman and a man is a man, regardless of genitals.

Quote from: Shantel on May 31, 2014, 06:58:39 PM
I hate to sound like Jonny One Note but this is not applicable to New Testament Christians.

It is part and parcel of the OLD COVENANT. Scripture very plainly shows that God would MAKE A NEW COVENANT with His people.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Jesus tells us

Luke 22

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!" 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

Hebrews go into the detail of the better covenant

Hebrew 7

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

"You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek."[a]
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

"The Lord has sworn
    and will not change his mind:
    'You are a priest forever.'"
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 8

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

"The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

See when God made the Mosaic obsolete with all the rules and regulations,He replaced it with the law of LOVE. Jesus so plainly tells us that they will one is His disciple by the love one shows for another. John writes this over and over

1 John 1

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

1 John 4

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Paul writes this

Galatians 5

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

As Christians we are called to a HIGHER LAW.

Quote from: SarahM777 on May 31, 2014, 08:20:48 PM
It is part and parcel of the OLD COVENANT. Scripture very plainly shows that God would MAKE A NEW COVENANT with His people.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Jesus tells us

Luke 22

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed. But woe to that man who betrays him!" 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

Hebrews go into the detail of the better covenant

Hebrew 7

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

"You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek."[a]
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

"The Lord has sworn
    and will not change his mind:
    'You are a priest forever.'"
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 8

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

"The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

See when God made the Mosaic obsolete with all the rules and regulations,He replaced it with the law of LOVE. Jesus so plainly tells us that they will one is His disciple by the love one shows for another. John writes this over and over

1 John 1

19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

1 John 4

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Paul writes this

Galatians 5

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

As Christians we are called to a HIGHER LAW.

Wow. I really don't know what to say. God made my Spirit in that same image and I just feel more female than male but both aspects are in me. How should I feel? Male or Female? God, I am so confued at times.

god made you in his image alright, spirit. god is spirit, not flesh.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 31, 2014, 09:55:32 PM
god made you in his image alright, spirit. god is spirit, not flesh.

Actually true words of wisdom LordKAT.

Quote from: SarahM777 on May 31, 2014, 08:20:48 PM
It is part and parcel of the OLD COVENANT. Scripture very plainly shows that God would MAKE A NEW COVENANT with His people.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

This law is not in place yet. Look at No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

This covenant will be made at a time when everyone in the whole world believes in God. We're not there yet.

Quote from: crowcrow223 on June 01, 2014, 03:01:15 AM
This law is not in place yet. Look at No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

This covenant will be made at a time when everyone in the whole world believes in God. We're not there yet.

Scripture says otherwise. The writer of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31 twice

Hebrews 8

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

"The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
    after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
    and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear

Hebrews 10

10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
    but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
    I have come to do your will, my God.'"[a]
8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 "This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds."
17 Then he adds:

"Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more."[c]


18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary


The writer of Hebrews testifies that the new covenant written about by Jeremiah has come,not that it is YET TO COME,but it is here and now.

The writer of Hebrews is clearly wrong then. Jeremiah says the covenant will be in place when everyone in the entire world believes in God, period. There's no arguing about it, we're not there yet.

Even if one wants to try to put people back under the Mosaic law,does anyone get one thing that Deuteronomy 22:5 by the letter of the law does NOT address? HOW does that law apply to those born INTERSEXED? Even under the Mosaic law they knew there were those born OUTSIDE the norms. The Mosaic law itself DOES NOT address the application of the law in all cases,that was left up to the judges,if the judges could not decide the case then it was taken before the priests. So the question SHOULD be HOW did they apply the law to those born OUTSIDE the norm? (If one is trying to stay under the Mosaic law in the first place)

Quote from: crowcrow223 on June 01, 2014, 03:01:15 AM
This law is not in place yet. Look at No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

This covenant will be made at a time when everyone in the whole world believes in God. We're not there yet.

Where does that passage say that the New Covenant is at a time when the whole world believes? It's part of the problem when people try to take passages and add things to the text that the text never said.

Quote from: Olivia P on May 26, 2014, 06:37:15 AM
Deuteronomy 22:5
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
5 "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment; for all who do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

God didn't create clothing, man did. God didn't create style of clothing, man did. Man decided on what and how we were to wear it. Those were words from an ignorant human being (a man) who had some serious internal issues within himself. Women shall not wear men's clothing lest they get mistaken as such along with the equal rights of a man, therefore a possible threat to man's dominance. As for the other way around, probably thought if he saw another man dressed in women's attire it'd turn him on and that embarrassed and enraged him, felt his manhood was endangered. Soeth that verse was written. God don't care what we wear, we were given skin and hair, but somewhere along the way be it climate, or shame to show our nudity, we started fashioning clothes for ourselves.

Quote from: SarahM777 on June 02, 2014, 06:35:40 AM
Where does that passage say that the New Covenant is at a time when the whole world believes? It's part of the problem when people try to take passages and add things to the text that the text never said.

I agree Deut 22:5 doesn't apply to transsexual people, don't get me wrong. I referred to the Jeremiah verse.

The passage says the new covenant is at a time when the whole world believes in God in "for they will all know me", does everyone know God at this time in our lives? I am almost certain this verse refers to knowing as believing

This is one reason I no longer attend church, because people can't resist taking something that is simple to understand in the context of the whole bible and then through their own convoluted reasonings and continual bloviating they make it as confusing and difficult as possible for others in order to be seen as knowledgable and well versed and they go beyond the point that which the Holy Spirit reveals willingly to each individual as he's able to receive. This is a human failing that is couched in ego which only serves to drive away those who may be interested in knowing their Creator more intimately.

Quote from: Shantel on June 03, 2014, 11:16:11 AM
This is one reason I no longer attend church, because people can't resist taking something that is simple to understand in the context of the whole bible and then through their own convoluted reasonings and continual bloviating they make it as confusing and difficult as possible for others in order to be seen as knowledgable and well versed and they go beyond the point that which the Holy Spirit reveals willingly to each individual as he's able to receive. This is a human failing that is couched in ego which only serves to drive away those who may be interested in knowing their Creator more intimately.

Easier to act holy to others than to be holy to God.

Too many people worship the Bible, damn few follow Christ.  I try my best to follow Jesus but keep tripping over folks kneeling and bowing and spouting words they have never read who are blocking the true way of the Cross.  The way into Jerusalem was strewn with palm leaves, not book leaves.

Hi. 

Okay try looking at what was said not what is dished up today, apart from a few 1000 years to late and does not concern any one other than who the words were for.

it has nothing at all to do with clothes . there was a war going on and some of the soldiers were cowards and did not wont to fight and keep safe thier women and children and camp. oh and the older people,

So to try and get out of fighting they as we'd say hid behind thier Mothers apron or covered thier armour so they could hide ,

The women were told not to take up arms = armour shield and sword because they were not trained in fighting and battle and would be killed out right  let alone carry the heavy weight.

Plus they were child bearing females,

When reading or study the bible look at .... who was talking , to who , when , why and the time date frame  because if you dont youll never understand what was said .

To day people have and from 1600 to now have in the main an english mind set of thinking and dont look beyound what and how they you or others have been taught how to think  think as they did then 3 to 4 1000 years ago and youll find its very different,

Who translated the bible and why, and allso think about control  of mind go back to 500 ad and look'e there, and see who was doing the manipulating , oh yes.....

The blbe is a very narrow record of history, and a lot is missing so look at archeology, and what has been recorded there and then read the bible itll become more understandible and plan,

...noeleena...

A lot of impressive Biblical knowledge in play and it flushed us out to share, all good

My take on it is that it is one of those problem verses for me that even when rebutted, it destabilizes me.  That unfortunately is not good.  What brings me back is some of the other laws that if in play, would result in a lot of dead people through stoning.  I'll take grace and forgiveness over that any day.

But the idea of being in rebellion for me is not one I care to indulge.  I have to rely on my experience with Christ, and since I feel the connection in prayer in my fully transitioned times, and my hidden transition times living genderqueer, and since I see the evidence of answered prayers, I know the cross has me covered.  I look at the fruit, and in my scenario, I can't possibly live by this law if it applies.  It would destroy me and silence me, clearly this is not God's intent for my life, nor would the depression and angst have anything good for my family as they suffer with my deadly dysphoria in full conflict with me, causing me to be anxious, irritable, and obsessed.

No I will take living a pure life as a nonbinary transsexual instead.  I have been delivered from so much sin since transitioning, so much deception self and otherwise, I must conclude that I am on the right path to meet Jesus, not the crushing path of a legalistic law I cannot possibly live.  And I see the fruit of others forcing that law upon us as very negative, with a root that they are better than us somewhere under the condemnation of us, thereby getting them into deep doo doo with our God, who strongly dislikes self righteousness based on putting other people down.

I have to read more, may comment again.  I am impressed, humbled, pleased to be here in your company.

God Bless, hugs to all.

Quote from: Satinjoy on June 05, 2014, 04:47:24 PM

A lot of impressive Biblical knowledge in play and it flushed us out to share, all good

I am impressed, humbled, pleased to be here in your company.

God Bless, hugs to all.

Yeah me too and I apologize to everyone for being so prickly in my last comment. I just live by the simple formula "Keep it simple stupid!" (KISS) Because anyone looking in and enquiring about these things will get information overload, keep it simple and gospel centered for Christ's sake! (Not cussing here for those who don't know better)

Quote from: Shantel on June 05, 2014, 05:02:04 PM
I just live by the simple formula "Keep it simple stupid!" (KISS) Because anyone looking in and enquiring about these things will get information overload, keep it simple and gospel centered for Christ's sake!

I like simple.  :)

Matthew 6:25 KJV

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat , or what ye shall drink ; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on . Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Matthew 6:31 KJV

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?



This is good enough for me.

  Deuteronomy is part of the Torah, the Law that God gave to man. Jesus has said many times that the Pharisees and Temple heads ignore the law of the Torah and instead succumb to the laws of man given by man.  Read Matthew, chapter 14, with one encounter.  The Torah still is the law as Jesus was concerned.  They had a written type of Talmud that was abridged later as the Babylon section of the Talmud plus the newer Jerusalem Talmud, a multi-volume set.  This was supposed to clarify the Torah.  Over time there were new laws and traditions added, some with vile references to the Gentiles and how they be treated.  This was the mentioning that Jesus gave through his ministry.  Turning the tables of wares and money changing on the Temple grounds and saying "Do you make my Father's House a den of thieves!" is one instance. 
  Some Jews do not use the Talmud at all such as the Messianic Jews.  The Messianic Jews believe in Jesus as the Hebrew Yeshua and read the New Testament, but keep the basic Laws of the Torah.  The changed laws about circumcision and the eating of the "unclean" meats that Paul mentioned in The Acts of the Apostles are applicable to the Greeks, the new converts at the time, according to the Messianic Jews.  The converts to Messianic Judism do not have to get circumcised from this passage.  The converts from the main Judism to Messianic Judism should keep the old jewish customs and dietary laws as mentioned in the Torah. The Torah or Pentateuch as it also as called does apply to those of us that are the "New Testament" types.  This is the grave something that got lost in the nearly 2000 years of Christianity. 

  Joelene

Well dear ones I triggered this morning over a combination of this scripture, my 56th birthday, a pic of myself 2 years ago prior to transition, and my family commenting negatively about my androgyn hair.  I am in a confrontation with dysphoria now over cutting it.  The dysphoria is winning, it does not ever give back ground it has taken.  I rely on Christ as I walk a tightrope balancing the dysphoria with family needs, which is working well, but I cannot look down for a second, the fear crushes me if I do.  Nicely I have not suffered from the fear of dysphoric progression for about 3 weeks now since my last breakdown from it.  And I am ok right now, because you are here.  And because of the key of acceptance, and that acceptance was accepting that Jesus has me and my family firmly in His grasp, as well as my dysphoria.

The problem is I take one scripture out of context and my fear grabs it and beats me to a pulp with it.  I lose the totality of scripture out of fear that I am distorting what the heart of God is in writing this God Breathed insight and instruction.  The other problem I have is that I marry this scripture with the two about effeminacy in the NKJV and heaven being barred from the effeminate, thereby damning me.  But I believe there are major translation and context issues there, and that the frame of reference was the Roman baths and cult prostitutes.  I need help with getting this one debriefed.

If it wasn't for Jesus, I would not have survived nor continue to survive.  That is one of the keys for me when I get into legalistic trouble.  Because I have no hope without Him, every day, every breath.

Can we look at this combination of scriptures so I can have a little more peace about it?  A major trigger for me here, destabilizing the poor little Satinjoy child with hir arms raised to my God and my King for protection and help.

I feel better now just dumping this onto the forum, I trust you and it is so encouraging to have other real deal Christians here on the forum.  Not to exclude anyone that is not, and is drawn here to us too.

Love to all here.

Satinjoy, don't let something as meaningless as a hairstyle make you dysphoric. God how many times I have been told I needed to get a haircut. Or how many times people thought I was a woman than a man from behind. I like that one though. Hair is hair and just like anything else you have a right to have it as long or as short as you want it. Those that don't like it, critisize their hair.

The Bible is a book written with a lot of parrables that have different meanings for everyone depending upon how a person takes it. It was supposedly inspired by God and written by man and that leaves a lot of room for interpretation, especially when you look to how long ago those words were written and what  people's perceptions of God was at the time. I hate when people read something and say with absolute certainty, "that is the way it is!" That may be true for that one particular person but what a lot of people fail to understand is it may pertain to something totally different to someone else.

The absolute laws that I feel are in the Bible are the Ten Commandments which is nothing more than how we should treat others and perceive God.

The Bible is meant to inspire us in our own unique ways. It is also a great mystery because of the so called Bible Codes that predict bits and peices of the future in it's original texts. The King James version came about in the 1500s and I have a tremendous feeling that a lot of things were either misinterpreted and or things left out and added in for control purposes. But it is just a book. It is not supposed to replace your own unique relationship with our Creator, that my dear is what you should have in your heart, mind and Spirit. Not memorized word for word Biblical passages. Besides the Bible ended around 1500 years ago maybe and stuck in time, we are not. In other words, our Spirits are still evolving and perceptions of God today may not be the same from long ago. Unfortunately though most religions and therefore perceptions are still in the same time frame as the Bible.

Take God in the very beginning of the Bible, all the way up to Christ's teachings. There is a big difference of perceptions from a vengeful God that takes sides to a Loving and Forgiving God that gave us Freewill. God hasn't changed but rather our perceptions of God have changed and the Bible is proof of that. So in the last 1500 years, how has our perceptions of God changed? Some have and some are still stuck in the past and that is why teachers come to us about every 2000-2800 years. Spirituality in the physical forms of religions become stale, abussive, controlling, and pretty much a negative and we need a kickstart from a much older and wiser Spirit than ourselves. This is where and why Jesus came some 2000 some odd years ago to try to change perceptions and understanding of Spirituality. There were many before Jesus and there will be many more to come if we can keep from self destructing.

So really, take what is in the Bible with a grain of salt because a lot of so called "Laws of God" are actually more laws of man. Follow the Ten Commandments because that will make you a good person, and follow Christ's teachings from your heart and Spirit. And remember the passage in Genesis, we know the differrence between good and evil so it is deeply instilled within us and we don't need a book to recognize those two opposites and what we should do.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 31, 2014, 08:32:27 PM
Wow. I really don't know what to say. God made my Spirit in that same image and I just feel more female than male but both aspects are in me. How should I feel? Male or Female? God, I am so confued at times.

First what is male and what is female?

Second the answer to me is - Happy, genuine, authentic and who you are. 


Jess dear thanks for these and so many other comments in other areas of the forum where you have helped me.  For the hair - cutting it to male will probably trigger a feeling similar to being violated, if I am forced to it, regardless of if I am GQ non binary or not.  It goes against the honest core.  I may become willing to try it for a while momentarily to play a theater role or in a very hostile environment (later this month...) but the feelings get rough and my dysphoria rebounds in a very unhealthy way if I disturb it too much

As to the scriptures, very quickly, where I am at with it when fully sane is that they are meant for the time and place and people of that time and social condition, re effeminate is actually either a temple prostitute or the younger member of a male to male physical relationship where the other partner is much older, back in that time period where anything that moved could be had for intercourse.  Or in revelation where it is to indicate someone so in the flesh that it becomes over the top, when you see someone utterly controlled by lust.   I could be dead wrong on all of this I am no translator.

Having said that, the idea for me is to get the heart or the spirit of the unchanging God's law and love, see through the scripture to the other side and find out from Him what He feels about it all.  So it becomes paramount to understand what is said in original language, who it is for, why it is there, and the fundamental truth that is its foundation.

And I very much enjoy your comments and your wonderful instinct to protect my right to have the hair that matches my core gender.

God bless you dear...

I do believe that scripture is truly God Breathed.  I also believe that some of the stuff in there is not applicable in our current social scenario, specifically with regards to cis-women.  So I do take it not literal in the sense of rigid law, but spiritually, in the sense of How does this apply Today?  What is it's fruit?  What is the witness of the Spirit saying as it relates to me and how I apply this, and is the enemy of our souls doing the same thing he did to Jesus by misusing specific scripture to his own selfish ends..... to bring us under condemnation and fear.

Many thanks... many many thanks.

I know about the hair part. I would be tremendously crushed to have to get a haircut. I have invested almost two years and now it is finally long enough to where more and more people are commenting about it. I have noticed guys that I see often seem to be letting theirs grow a little bit longer than before. Never thought I would ever be a trendsetter. I think it is mainly because of the comments I get from women and these guys kind of feel left out. :-\ I woulndn't even cut it for a play or anything else. I really need it guy or girl.

Like I said, to me the Bible in it's original text is a mystery. There does seem to be a code if you have ever seen anything on it or read anything about it that foretells events. The only problem is that we haven't a clue right now until after the events using key words. But translated I believe it loses that code like structure. Still though, even translated it is extrememly useful and inspirational in our day to day lives. You're right though it was written in different times and so much has changed.

Sometimes though, especially when it comes to Spirituality, we need other's perpective in order to gain control on our own perspective. But those perspectives are just as unique as you and I are as people.

You are welcome and definately think before you cut 'cause it seems to take forever to grow back out. Especially that dreaded awkward stage. I still have awkward hair days even as long as it is but at least it looks awkwardly good though. ;)

Eh, let us not forget about how even men are supposed to wear a lacy pattern on their shirt/clothing yet no one does that anymore and such a pattern design these days are woman only patterns/designs/clothing. I believe there was one more thing in/around that same passage I was going to point out but I forget.

I will say that even eunuchs were allowed to dress in female attire and were even at times treated as woman. Food for thought. Oh and just to be clear, we as trans are not eunuchs as the two while similar, are vastly different.

I owe everyone here especially Sarah, Jess and Satinjoy an apology for my snarky comment about the length of their responses, it was not right and I am grieved by my attitude. It was brought to my attention that I have stepped on peoples's feelings and it's not like me to be that way please forgive me!

Forgive what dear?  You speak from the heart and we know that... but its great you cleared your mind and settled the concern of offending or hurting feelings in here.  That's important for the one hurt and the one who did the hurting.  Its never out of malice, we know that too.

You are loved in this place and always will be.  All of us are, we are unique and united together in a common adversity like nothing else others can understand.  A seat at the feast is reserved for you... I really wonder what our bodies will be like up there.  I'd like to have my androgyne physiology in heaven.

Love to all here.

Each of those I named has responded in loving kindness and I do appreciate it and love you all thank you dear friends!

Quote from: Shantel on July 16, 2014, 12:14:44 PM
Each of those I named has responded in loving kindness and I do appreciate it and love you all thank you dear friends!

Oh Shantel who could be mad at you?

Quote from: Jess42 on July 16, 2014, 01:38:18 PM
Oh Shantel who could be mad at you?

Me for being an occasional grumpy curmudgeon, probably partially age related and the fact that I am a type-A personality, the two makes for a bad combo and we both know that short fuzes and HE are a bad mix to have on a mission op-plan.

Everybody has an occasional bad day Shantel. Even you! You are a very helpful, upbeat, encouraging person and everyone knows that, and no one is carrying a grudge against ya. Carry on! :)

Quote from: Eva Marie on July 16, 2014, 02:50:35 PM
Everybody has an occasional bad day Shantel. Even you! You are a very helpful, upbeat, encouraging person and everyone knows that, and no one is carrying a grudge against ya. Carry on! :)

Thanks hon!

Quote from: Shantel on June 05, 2014, 05:02:04 PM
Yeah me too and I apologize to everyone for being so prickly in my last comment. I just live by the simple formula "Keep it simple stupid!" (KISS) Because anyone looking in and enquiring about these things will get information overload, keep it simple and gospel centered for Christ's sake! (Not cussing here for those who don't know better)

I'm going to throw down the gauntlet at you Shan!  >:-)

At a basic level, the gospel and core beliefs are beautiful and simple.  There are core beliefs that are common to all denominations, whether it be catholic or whatever brand of Protestants.

Then there are the peripheral issues, the grey areas which may not necessarily affect ones salvation.

The position one takes on a given issue, boils down to ones systematic theology (a systematic study of God) - how one has read through all scripture in a given issue, and the translated through the prism of ones personal, and cultural bias.

From theology comes ones doctrine, ones belief on a given issue, and practical application of such.

Keeping the gospel Truth as something simple is important, but the walls of text here, are expressions of posters systematic thoughts on the bible to come to a position on an issue.  When something isn't clear cut (this isn't a case of "thou shalt not kill") then it is necessary - even if a consensus is not reached.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!  That's a lot of walls of texts that I sure didn't read.

~ ~ ~

Quote from: Olivia P on May 26, 2014, 06:37:15 AM
I am interested to see peoples opinion on this part of the bible...

I shall refer thee to another part of the Old Law:

Quote from: Leviticus 11:12 (ESV)"Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is detestable to you."

And, boy, do I sure love shellfish!  I refuse to accept and deny the Old Law by what pieces I like and don't like.  That is a huge, glaring problem that the modern day church is doing and, quite frankly, is turning away/damning more people than witnessing to them.  Jesus fulfilled/succeeded the Old Law and gave us two commandments, which I do my best to live by:

Quote from: Mark 12:29-31 (ESV)Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Everything else falls in to place with those two.  Bring on the crab legs and some butter, please!

Toodles from TN,
Ales

Quote from: luna nyan on July 17, 2014, 05:57:30 AM
I'm going to throw down the gauntlet at you Shan!  >:-)

When something isn't clear cut (this isn't a case of "thou shalt not kill") then it is necessary - even if a consensus is not reached.

Challenge accepted!

And though it's a meaningless waste to carry this any further for the sake of arguing about peripheral stuff
"Thou shalt not kill" is more rightly translated as thou shalt not murder as in what Cain did to his brother Able out of black hearted malicious intent. Rather than being confused and wondering why God approved of David slaying tens of thousands while protecting Israel and then assuming that God is somehow sanctioning the breaking of His own laws, this killing is justifiable in God's eyes just as it would be for a husband dispatching someone who was intent on killing his family and it could never possibly be misconstrued as murder. The commandment was translated as "Thou shalt not kill" in the King James bible initially as it may have been politically expedient for the monarchy to have it stated in such general terms rather than the more specific term "Murder," I don't know that for certain and am just speculating, but it would make sense.

Quote from: Alesium on August 12, 2014, 01:59:02 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa!  That's a lot of walls of texts that I sure didn't read.

~ ~ ~

I shall refer thee to another part of the Old Law:

And, boy, do I sure love shellfish!  I refuse to accept and deny the Old Law by what pieces I like and don't like.  That is a huge, glaring problem that the modern day church is doing and, quite frankly, is turning away/damning more people than witnessing to them.  Jesus fulfilled/succeeded the Old Law and gave us two commandments, which I do my best to live by:

Everything else falls in to place with those two.  Bring on the crab legs and some butter, please!

Toodles from TN,
Ales

I'm with you sister!  :D

God didn't make me as a woman or a man, so I don't feel it applies to me. It doesn't apply to most transgendered people either, just cross dressers. Even then I don't believe we have to follow it. Read Deuteronomy 22:12, it states that you must sew tassels in to your clothes or you are violating the same set of laws that once forbade cross dressing. Until people also go around shouting at tassel-less sinners to repent, they have no right to tell people to stop cross dressing. I say once forbade, because Peter decided that we wouldn't have to follow the laws of the Jewish people as Christians. Many Jewish people I know don't even follow the laws of the Jewish people.