Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi everyone. I'm working on an article about the controversy regarding RuPaul's use of the T-word and was wondering if people here have had experiences of the word being used against them. That personally hasn't happened to me but I've been called a s**-**le and also referred to as a man online after I disclosed my trans status publicly. I just want to make the point more tangible that the word is actively being used negatively against trans people. I'm only going to talk about anything people say in summary form and if I end up wanting to quote you I'll ask for your permission and preserve your anonymity. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it in public you can also send me a message. Thanks so much.

To my shocking surprise, this past weekend i met this guy who is originally from California, who happens to know and be friends with at least 2 trans girls... he calls them the T word.... and referred to me as one too... I can't begin to explain the hatred I have for that word merely because of how i've grown up to hear it used only in negative ways.

I would even prefer "T-girl" to the T word, even though i know some people don't like being called that... but all the other words like the T word, the She word, and even the word Ladyboy, all rub me the wrong way, and people seem to have a particular liking to the T word... I don't understand the difficulty with saying Transgirl or Transwoman... or simply "trans".

Another word that for SOME reason people have associated with transwomen, is the word "sissy". The unimaginable loathing I have for being labeled a sissy is beyond any measurable level. Being on tumblr, i follow a few people that post interesting pictures about several different things, and often times they will share a post by another user who specializes in posting pictures of transwomen... and the reblog comments on them are so incredibly disgusting and insulting to transwomen that I can't even believe it. People left and right using the T word and She word and Sissy and being so blatantly and sexually abusive.. and a lot of the times these pictures are not of transwomen in porn (which i have no issue with, its their body) its of regular transwomen posting regular sexy pictures... and people just reblogging them with such offensive comments.

Sorry for the long response, but conclusively, those words (to me) are not only hurtful and spoken in a light of negative connotation, but have also become a sexual label that would seek to identify us as nothing but sexual objects. i know some people don't really care (clearly by the  fact that the guy from cali that I met still uses the word and no one has gone off on him) but to me personally, after living the last 23 years hearing those words being related to a negative view of transpeople, it pierces me in a very bad way.

Yes.  It does sting a bit.  I have a thick skin from all the abuse I took as a kid, so it didn't really get to me, but wow, what a douche.  Oddly my wife has been called that herself, and she's cis.

Never been called that but my best friend she called me a dirty trans once. It really hurt. I don't like any name they have given us even our official one.

Yes,  I was called a ->-bleeped-<- before.  As you may know, I have a very difficult time leaving the house wearing what I want to wear and presenting the way I'd like to look.  One day I decided to experiement a bit and give a more feminine appearance a chance outside the house, since I rarely try going out in traditional female clothes at the moment.  I was getting a lot of positive feedback about my passing potential for those I asked, so I thought why not start small and see the response.  It wasn't going bad at first and no one was really paying me much attention.  However, a couple of teenage boys decided to point out my appearance and start laughing amongst themselves.  It wasn't shouted at me or anything, but they were pointing with laughter and saying "that's a ->-bleeped-<-" pretty audibly.  Now granted, I could have been smarter and wore something more definitively female; however, wearing a tight sweatshirt, female jeans and a little makeup with long straight hair really shouldn't have gotten me called out like that.  In any case, despite the fact that no one else said anything or stared at me while I was out (to the best of my knowledge) I ran out of the store and jumped into my car so I could cry in private.  And I sort of lost it when I got home.  Since then, I haven't tried leaving the house wearing any of my more feminine clothes and am terrified about going full time.  Even though that was really a small little incident that shouldn't have hurt me so much, it was a devastating experience for me and I want to prevent that from happening again. It's likely those kids didn't mean to cause so much hurt and upset.  They probably have no idea how much I obsess over my appearance and fear little things like that.  They probably just caught on that I'm trans and it was something funny or different to them.  But pointing it out and calling me a ->-bleeped-<- hurt a lot.    In any case, the real moral of this story is that I have to toughen up and deal with these things or keep improving my appearance so I won't have to. 

Lastly, I should note that the word itself isn't that important to me.  It's just being made fun of or being pointed at for being trans that gets to me.  If someone pointed and said that's a transwoman or transexual, it would have hurt just as much.  I suppose I still carry around some shame for being who I am and want to hide that from other people.  I suppose that's the real sad part of the story if anything.

->-bleeped-<- always used to mean transvestite, now I am not sure if it still does (RuPaul thinks it does) so I am not sure if someone who is transsexual is called a ->-bleeped-<- does it mean they are being lumped in with transvestite men, or if it is short for any trans*?  I know the cross dressing community has adopted it as a word of pride, kind of like how homosexuals adopted 'gay'.  Should all trans* people be offended then or only non-transvestite trans people?  I was once referred to as a transistor, but I don't feel offended :)

I guess this is where I am different. I have been called so many bad names that the T word or The s**m*** word doesn't even bother me. People really are ignorant to what we find offensive because there are not that many of us. What they know is usually from the rather than "less than respectable" websights. I, in no way absolutely do not judge or begrudge those of us girls working in that industry at all. But unfortunately most people get those names from that industry. That tells me that a lot more guys, whether they admit it find us attractive. Yeah some you may call ->-bleeped-<-s in which they themselves are or could be under the same umbrella as LGBT people are, some may be curious but some may find us just as attractive as ciswomen. Some may even crave the femininity we revel in and that some ciswomen try to deny from themselves in a society that discredits femininity but we embrace it. Again this is just me but if someone finds me attractive I am flattered no matter what attracts them and regardless of if they are male or female. As long as they treat me with respect and not just a one night stand, like even ciswomen experience, then I am good with them.

I really tend to cut people a lot of slack though. I myself say things that people find offensive but in such a way that they can't really be offended. But like I said though I am different and have exerienced the seedy or wild or sleazy side of life so maybe I shouldn't have even replied to this post. But again I am just me and thought maybe it might help for some not to feel bad about themsleves.

The only person who's ever used that word towards me is my brother. And he would like nothing more than to see me six feet under. It was said with so much venom and hatred that the intent and meaning was clear. And the twisted smile on his face when he said it, repeatedly, meant he knew what effect he wanted it to have. It was wholly negative and meant to hurt.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 27, 2014, 12:48:02 PM
The only person who's ever used that word towards me is my brother. And he would like nothing more than to see me six feet under. It was said with so much venom and hatred that the intent and meaning was clear. And the twisted smile on his face when he said it, repeatedly, meant he knew what effect he wanted it to have. It was wholly negative and meant to hurt.

Oh Freakin' Wow. That truly is sad that loved ones can't even accept their own siblings or children. My heart definately goes out to you Sephirah.

I'm withholding my thoughts so I don't bias the conversation, but please know that I'm listening and taking what everyone's saying into account. Thanks so much helping me think through this word.

By people that I don't mind saying that word. I don't get worked up by that word as much as most... She-male, ladyboy, etc... yeah I'd say don't say it (but I don't hear that word in real life). But the only people that say ->-bleeped-<- are the people that I know aren't being mean, so it doesn't offend me.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 27, 2014, 01:45:02 PM
I'm withholding my thoughts so I don't bias the conversation, but please know that I'm listening and taking what everyone's saying into account. Thanks so much helping me think through this word.

I really don't think you would bias the conversation mandonlym but maybe provide how you feel other than your original posting.

I have never been called a ->-bleeped-<- to my face.

When I grew up, ->-bleeped-<- was an abbreviation for Trans-Am, transmission, transvestite and transsexual. Just an abbreviation.

Now, I have been mistaken for someone who just likes to dress in drag, often enough, by friends who are either accepting or trying to be accepting. Usually, they haven't yet seen me. One friend asked what I look like in drag. I said I look like a man. He got the point and apologized.

I have been called, "Sir" or, "He" in the nicest of ways, and, "Woman" in the meanest of ways.

As far as I can tell, "->-bleeped-<-" predates "Transgender" and originated from within the LGBT community. So, I do not think it is rooted in hate.

While the word does bother me, plenty of drag words bother me, calling someone a fish, or fishy? Calling each other bitch all the time? Drag is an art with its roots in inner cities where tough folks with thick skin thrived. I can understand why they are protective of their classic slang.

Not all people who land under the trans* umbrella are as soft, sensitive and feminine as many MTFs tend to be.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 27, 2014, 01:48:46 PM
I really don't think you would bias the conversation mandonlym but maybe provide how you feel other than your original posting.

I'll discuss my feelings maybe at the end and also link to the article when it comes out. I don't want to risk the perception that I'm steering the conversation in the direction I want, since it's a piece for publication so I have to respect journalistic standards and such.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 27, 2014, 02:08:27 PM
I'll discuss my feelings maybe at the end and also link to the article when it comes out. I don't want to risk the perception that I'm steering the conversation in the direction I want, since it's a piece for publication so I have to respect journalistic standards and such.

Allright. gottcha. ;) But don't let it die without satisfying my curiosity OK? We all know what curiosity does to the FEline or FEmale. :)

I'd also like to add that I dislike the word Trap in the derogatory sense. If the word were referring to someone "trapped" in the wrong body, then I would have no issue with it, but seeing as people refer to us as traps because we look like women and then when you see our genitals, "its a trap."... ugh -_- another term that has been growing momentum as i've seen in my adventures.

Quote from: LittleEmily24 on May 27, 2014, 02:17:46 PM
I'd also like to add that I dislike the word Trap in the derogatory sense. If the word were referring to someone "trapped" in the wrong body, then I would have no issue with it, but seeing as people refer to us as traps because we look like women and then when you see our genitals, "its a trap."... ugh -_-

I have never really understood that word either. the word trap is definatley a mystery to me.

It's used to refer to a transsexual that is attractive. The context would be "So and so is gorgeous" "Watch out bro, she's a trap"

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 27, 2014, 02:25:12 PM
It's used to refer to a transsexual that is attractive. The context would be "So and so is gorgeous" "Watch out bro, she's a trap"

OK so now I know. Funny thing is that I have been "trapped" before, F2M and M2F and I never felt actually like it was a trap. Oh well, I wouldn't ever say I was a "trap" but I am definately one helluva catch. ;) :embarrassed: Ok so I have dillusions of granduer. ;)

Quote from: Jess42 on May 27, 2014, 02:30:58 PM
OK so now I know. Funny thing is that I have been "trapped" before, F2M and M2F and I never felt actually like it was a trap. Oh well, I wouldn't ever say I was a "trap" but I am definately one helluva catch. ;) :embarrassed: Ok so I have dillusions of granduer. ;)

Probably because you're informed and more open minded than, say, 75% of society... and thats me being generous.

and i'd say delusions of grandeur are better than delusions of inferiority ;D

I have not been called any of these words, I'm sure I will though, it's just a matter of time .  Those words really hurt though, even when I see/hear them being used against other people.  The ->-bleeped-<- and the trap ones in particular really sting.  Trap is the worst because of the underlying meaning–that we are "fake" women and loathsome and to even touch our skin is reviling.

->-bleeped-<- is more of a straight-up insult, which belies the insecurity of the person saying it more than anything.  But still it is very hurtful, and Ru Paul can kiss my ass.  Maybe don't speak for a marginalized group you don't belong to, eh?

Loads of times,sometimes I ignore it,other times I think you know my reply that starts with F!

Quote from: LittleEmily24 on May 27, 2014, 02:34:28 PM
Probably because you're informed and more open minded than, say, 75% of society... and thats me being generous.

and i'd say delusions of grandeur are better than delusions of inferiority ;D

Oh Emily, do you know how many times I have had to pick up some of my greymatter oof of the side walk, "cause I am so open minded my brain falls out. ;) And oh, yeah 75% is pretty fairly over generous depending on the area of course. But the times, they are a' changin' though.

I won't even go into the second part when someone says' "Oh God." because my answer may even be deemed sacreligious. But hey, all in fun and the surprise factor, Huh?

After comming out, my dad said to me he could rememder when a ->-bleeped-<- was a radio.

I have been called ->-bleeped-<- before, being reffered to as a MAN in drag. But at the time all i was bothered about was if i was being followed by the callers.

But then again iv been called so many thing throughout my life, that my concern is often not what im called but what those calling me might do next.

wear my dads concerned i point out the differences between trans, vestite, gender and sexual. 

With other people i realy do adoped a whats the point mentality about it. Simply because of an unfortunate truth, the kind of person to call my ->-bleeped-<- and beat me, would only call me four eyes and beat me if a wasnt trans. or just beat me for anything portrayed outside the illution of normal.

fatty
geek
nerd
specky
spotty
->-bleeped-<-
homo
(incert racial difference here)
heck ive even been called whore for not crossing the road and talking to a grrop of drunk men at night. (definately not dressed like a prostitute)

So am i bothered im called ->-bleeped-<-? NO. but i am bothered that there are people that will be verbably and in a large percent physical abusive to people, just for being different.

I'd like to add that intent is what matters most for me.  If someone here said the word, as we are, it doesn't bother me so much.  If someone says it to mock or hurts someone, as it's happened to me, then I feel a different way.  I guess the moral is just strive to be a good person and avoid trying to purposefully hurt someone else, at least that's my view. 

As for Rupaul, I'm not against him doing his thing, but I wish he didn't try to speak for our entire community.  Sure, he can be included in the broader transgender umbrella but he isn't a transsexual and should consider how we may feel about these things.  Personally, I don't care what he says, but some do and maybe he should be a little sensitive to it, just like how people seem to be with other insulting words directed at marginalized groups. 

Quote from: learningtolive on May 27, 2014, 03:08:08 PM
I'd like to add that intent is what matters most for me.  If someone here said the word, as we are, it doesn't bother me so much.  If someone says it to mock or hurts someone, as it's happened to me, then I feel a different way.  I guess the moral is just strive to be a good person and avoid trying to purposefully hurt someone else, at least that's my view. 

As for Rupaul, I'm not against him doing his thing, but I wish he didn't try to speak for our entire community.  Sure, he can be included in the broader transgender umbrella but he isn't a transsexual and should consider how we may feel about these things.  Personally, I don't care what he says, but some do and maybe he should be a little sensitive to it, just like how people seem to be with other insulting words directed at marginalized groups.

Yes. All of it. I completely agree with everything. From intent to Rupaul not speaking for an entire community.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 27, 2014, 03:08:08 PM
I'd like to add that intent is what matters most for me.  If someone here said the word, as we are, it doesn't bother me so much.  If someone says it to mock or hurts someone, as it's happened to me, then I feel a different way.  I guess the moral is just strive to be a good person and avoid trying to purposefully hurt someone else, at least that's my view. 

As for Rupaul, I'm not against him doing his thing, but I wish he didn't try to speak for our entire community.  Sure, he can be included in the broader transgender umbrella but he isn't a transsexual and should consider how we may feel about these things.  Personally, I don't care what he says, but some do and maybe he should be a little sensitive to it, just like how people seem to be with other insulting words directed at marginalized groups.

Yeah, me too. He is famous, makes money off of being a drag queen? Maybe. And yeah RuPaul may actually be under the umbrella but is Ru Paul truly trans or is it just a money making thing? He seems not to be really sensitive enough to us to truly be one of us but I ain't gonnna' judge though. But a male with femal features can make a lot of money in the entertainment industry trans or cis... Just sayin'

Quote from: Jess42 on May 27, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
Yeah, me too. He is famous, makes money off of being a drag queen? Maybe. And yeah RuPaul may actually be under the umbrella but is Ru Paul truly trans or is it just a money making thing? He seems not to be really sensitive enough to us to truly be one of us but I ain't gonnna' judge though. But a male with femal features can make a lot of money in the entertainment industry trans or cis... Just sayin'

Rupaul seems to think he has the pass to say ->-bleeped-<- because the history that drag queens have of standing up for LGBT rights. Personally I'd let him call me ->-bleeped-<- on the streets, but I wish he'd refrain from making it seem okay that the word is usable to refer to all transsexuals by everybody.

Exactly.

And yeah intent is everything, but if you are going to be using that word and you don't belong to that group, you probably want to tread very carefully, know for sure it is okay to use in context, and realize that it will be used against you out of context, for sure, just like with all racial or sexual orientaion slurs.  Or do the simple thing and don't say it.

And if you don't belong to a marginalized group, and Ru Paul does not because he said specifically the "transsexual community" was this and that, which he certainly is not TS, then don't speak for them.  Not your place, sorry.

And if he think logo is going to be ok with him using slurs on their channel, yeah probably not.

about twenty years ago I was walking down a street , I had on a nice dress and being that it was winter Ihad on a coat . The coat was a mans coat because at the time I didn't have many female clothes . So , I'm walking down a main street and this guy is coming towards me  and yells out transvestite. I'm still not sure whether it was because of the coat or dress.

Quote from: stephaniec on May 27, 2014, 03:42:58 PM
about twenty years ago I was walking down a street , I had on a nice dress and being that it was winter Ihad on a coat . The coat was a mans coat because at the time I didn't have many female clothes . So , I'm walking down a main street and this guy is coming towards me  and yells out transvestite. I'm still not sure whether it was because of the coat or dress.

Even though I can't ever or seemingly ever keep my mouth shut, it is ashame that some people, when they open thier mouth, always have to try to hurt other's feelings. Hell, summetime's here and I would love to have the freedom, without ridicule, to walk down the street in a sundress wearing a ZZ Top beard with nothing but compliments about my legs. But we all know that ain't gonna happen. Even with cheap sunglasses. ;)

Really though Stephanie, it shouldn't matter. I could make fun of people all day long that I see during day to day life or I could say something that make them feel good about themselves. I usually try to say things that make them feel positive.

Quote from: Jen on May 27, 2014, 03:39:17 PM
Exactly.

And yeah intent is everything, but if you are going to be using that word and you don't belong to that group, you probably want to tread very carefully, know for sure it is okay to use in context, and realize that it will be used against you out of context, for sure, just like with all racial or sexual orientaion slurs.  Or do the simple thing and don't say it.

And if you don't belong to a marginalized group, and Ru Paul does not because he said specifically the "transsexual community" was this and that, which he certainly is not TS, then don't speak for them.  Not your place, sorry.

And if he think logo is going to be ok with him using slurs on their channel, yeah probably not.

This came out on twitter recently "I've been a "->-bleeped-<-" for 32 years. The word "->-bleeped-<-" has never just meant transsexual."

I think our umbrella is so big we get confused ourselves! :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/22/rupaul-responds-->-bleeped-<-_n_5374897.html

This is what he said.  He was absolutely speaking for the "transsexual community" (which is a myth in itself, but that is another story) and says so directly.

Quote from: Ducks on May 27, 2014, 03:54:26 PM
This came out on twitter recently "I've been a "->-bleeped-<-" for 32 years. The word "->-bleeped-<-" has never just meant transsexual."

I think our umbrella is so big we get confused ourselves! :)

Yeah, but I still think that if Ru Paul was truly transgender that Ru Paul would know that most of us find the word "->-bleeped-<-" offensive.

Is Ru Paul out here on susans by the way? Maybe we can get an explainatiuon why tha word is used on the show?

He is a gay man that plays with gender for money and maybe a little fun, but mostly money.  It's his career.  If that type of person is transgender, then maybe the whole world is transgender?

Yes. I write a newspaper column; in the olden days, I got respect when I was writing under a male name. After I transitioned, it was pretty much a guarantee that at least one comment (the column also appears on the paper's web site) would use that word.

now that it's been a few years, granted, I mostly get "liberal bitch." ;)

Quote from: Jess42 on May 27, 2014, 04:04:41 PM
Yeah, but I still think that if Ru Paul was truly transgender that Ru Paul would know that most of us find the word "->-bleeped-<-" offensive.

Not what you meant, but you make it sound like we have some sort of hive mind.

Personally I haven't been called it, but I don't go out much atm and don't really have any 'female' clothes atm. So little provocation.

Though some people I associate with have taken to using 'trap' more frequently to refer to particular female characters in a game they play who look somewhat masculine. Don't seem to realise that they are mirroring how some people will see me. If they did, they would probably use 'it's a joke' or 'grow some balls' as a response. The second one for the humour value, which I would actually find funny.

For now, I find 'trap' worse because of the meaning of the word and what is being implied. '->-bleeped-<-', while the intent is unpleasant, isn't so bad. It's kind of pointing out the obvious to me, I already know I'm trans. The associated 'fake woman' or 'transvestite' connotations wouldn't bother me much. Not much more than someone telling me that I'm stupid for thinking that 2*2 = 4, I know that I'm correct and they are wrong. Hence, I should be able to dismiss them. Maybe my view will change when experiencing it first hand though.

Quote from: Goldfish on May 27, 2014, 04:38:00 PM
Not what you meant, but you make it sound like we have some sort of hive mind.

Personally I haven't been called it, but I don't go out much atm and don't really have any 'female' clothes atm. So little provocation.

Though some people I associate with have taken to using 'trap' more frequently to refer to particular female characters in a game they play who look somewhat masculine. Don't seem to realise that they are mirroring how some people will see me. If they did, they would probably use 'it's a joke' or 'grow some balls' as a response. The second one for the humour value, which I would actually find funny.

For now, I find 'trap' worse because of the meaning of the word and what is being implied. '->-bleeped-<-', while the intent is unpleasant, isn't so bad. It's kind of pointing out the obvious to me, I already know I'm trans. The associated 'fake woman' or 'transvestite' connotations wouldn't bother me much. Not much more than someone telling me that I'm stupid for thinking that 2*2 = 4, I know that I'm correct and they are wrong. Hence, I should be able to dismiss them. Maybe my view will change when experiencing it first hand though.

Most is the key word. I don't find it personally offensive, but some of the other things I have been called "->-bleeped-<-" is the least bad. How about the word "redneck"? I have been called that too just because of an accent.  I personaly believe that any word can be insulting in the right context.

How can I say this without offending anyone.

I Listened to the dialog all the way to the end.
(in no way am i trying to justyfi being hurtfull or marginalise being hurt) but..

Its somthing that was said that made me think. (the loose loose situation)

Do we not, as people in general come to an understanding that we cant please everyone? is this not a loss? knowing that no matter what we say or do, and how much try to please as many people as possible, there will always be those we un intentionaly offend and or hurt.

But that loose loose situation seems to imply that this works both ways. that their will always be people that hurt and offend us?  even IF un intended.

This person pointed out that they can say otherwise hurtfull things to people and because they know them, its not offensive.

Ive seen people here too say that if someone here used the t word they wouldnt feel insulted because they would knew it wasnt ment as an insult.

I Think as people we will unfortunatly always offend some people, and some people will just as unfortunatelly offend us? (the loose loose situation)?

My oldest brother referred to me using the t word once. I quickly told him that if he continued to do so, it would be the last time I would ever be around him, to my knowledge, he has not used it again.  I've been called that a lot online, mostly myspace forums and a facebook page for some people from there. I cut off all contact with the whole group of them.  I just really hate the sound of that word when it refers to a person.  I hear it a lot in relation to transmissions and that's fine, it doesn't bother me then. I'm not fond of t-girl either.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 27, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
Hi everyone. I'm working on an article about the controversy regarding RuPaul's use of the T-word and was wondering if people here have had experiences of the word being used against them. That personally hasn't happened to me but I've been called a s**-**le and also referred to as a man online after I disclosed my trans status publicly. I just want to make the point more tangible that the word is actively being used negatively against trans people. I'm only going to talk about anything people say in summary form and if I end up wanting to quote you I'll ask for your permission and preserve your anonymity. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it in public you can also send me a message. Thanks so much.

I don't really blame people tbh.

The information about transgender to the public is shockingly awful.  The best--if you want to call it that--people representing us is talk show hosts, Hollywood (Who routinely use ciswomen to misrepresent us), and pornography. 

Thoughout the 1990s you had talkshow hosts like Montel Williams, Jerry Springer, etc having episodes of "She's a Man!" or "My husband left me for a Transsexual/->-bleeped-<-!" and this goes on and on.

The RuPaul show irritates me to no end, they'll take men who are CLEARLY drag queens and slap the transsexual label on them.

Pornography, well, it's pornography.

Is it any surprise that your average joe has utterly no clue how to handle being around a transwoman appropriately? 

Seriously, the topic isn't touched in elementary or middle school, barely if at all in high school, and in college you are only exposed to it if you meet a transfolk or you take a field of study that deals with it.

Personally I refer to myself as a ->-bleeped-<- (I'm taking the word back from porn!).  However, I know not all girls are comfortable with that word.

Yes its complicated, yes it is hurtful, and yes it is often inappropriate, but what can one reasonably expect when all the public sees is talk shows, pornography, and Hollywood?

-AM

In SF, there is a pretty well known club, or was anyway, called ->-bleeped-<-shack. I heard some people talking about it in a meeting and I wanted to die laughing. Like "There's a place actually called ->-bleeped-<-SHACK?????"

I have not been called names, yet, anyway. I was out with a friend getting dinner and a table next to us sat down with 3 little kids and I expected them to scream out any second "why is that man dressed like that mommy?" but it never happened. I have been called ->-bleeped-<- and some ->-bleeped-<- screamed "dude looks like a lady!" and another one said "Oh ->-bleeped-<- that's a dude!" but both times were before I started transition and was just in my regular clothes, which was not that uncommon to get gendered female. I am not sure if being insulted like that in that situation can be a humble-brag. But it did hurt my feelings. My experiences are still very limited overall. As a transgirl coming out into the world, this reaction is something that I'm very concerned about.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 27, 2014, 12:48:02 PM
The only person who's ever used that word towards me is my brother. And he would like nothing more than to see me six feet under. It was said with so much venom and hatred that the intent and meaning was clear. And the twisted smile on his face when he said it, repeatedly, meant he knew what effect he wanted it to have. It was wholly negative and meant to hurt.

My brother is a disgusting cretin of a human and I do not speak to him, nor have I for many years. It is likely I will never have the misery of seeing him again for the rest of my life, and I'm good with that. He is the kind of jerk who would love nothing more than to laugh in my face and call me names.

->-bleeped-<- is a word you hear right before the lights go out.  That is the weight it carries and why it is so terrible.  It is also why it shouldn't be used and why a cis person has no right to tell trans people how to feel about it.

Yes, being trans requires being unsinkable and thick skin goes with the territory.  We should certainly be able to handle hearing any word thrown at us, but that doesn't mean you should do it just cause you want to and nobody tells you what to do.  That's being a bully and a boar.

Quote from: Jen on May 27, 2014, 09:52:56 PM
->-bleeped-<- is a word you hear right before the lights go out.

omg you're right.  :(

Quote from: FA on May 27, 2014, 09:55:50 PM
omg you're right.  :(

Your avatar would be much funnier if he were wearing a nazi uniform and a hitler-stash.


I know that is very random and I'm sorry, but I put all that on with my trusty MS Paint application and got a kick out of it.

-AM

Quote from: Jen on May 27, 2014, 09:52:56 PM
->-bleeped-<- is a word you hear right before the lights go out.

This true.
Our problem lays in being a bright anough torch.
So when that word is heard people will see somone worth helping. At the times we cant help ourselvs.

Quote from: FA on May 27, 2014, 09:55:50 PM
omg you're right.  :(

In Time It will be a word more people hear, Right before they turn the light on.

No I've never been called a ->-bleeped-<- and honestly if I did it wouldn't be the end of the world to me. I live above petty name calling. As far as Ru Paul is concerned has anybody on here ever watched a real drag show? I'm not talking about on TV I'm talking real life. Drag queens will make fun of anything they make fun of gay guys straight guys butch lesbians. Nothing is off limits to them. In fact if I did get called a ->-bleeped-<- by a drag queen I would considered myself as gotten off lucky because they will make fun of anything. They are kinda like standup comedians except in outlandish clothes.

Too much would depend on the source and situation for me.  I've heard "chink" so many times it quite literally doesn't bother me.  I think that most people who shout out that crap just want a reaction from you and nothing disarms them like indifference.

I don't get why this is even an argument.   It is so silly.  This is an argument for why it's ok to use a slur?  Really?  Why?  You claim to be an ally of this group?  Why can't you just pick another word?  Is it really that hard?

That is ignoring that his argument seems to be "don't you dare tell me what to say!" and "bitch, get stronger!"  Before going on to misrepresent to a national audience how "true trans" women feel about the word.

Is this what an ally is supposed to sound like?   If so, no thank you.  And if this is typical drag queen behavior, then drag queens can kiss my ass too.  Slurs are lazy shock-value, and never funny.  People only hold onto them for humor because they are hack.  And that goes for all slurs that evolved from innocuous beginnings.  Language evolves and, if you have any empathy, you evolve with it in these cases.

I'm sorry, I mean not to cause an argument or disrespect  any ones point of view. I admit to being very dumb on certain issues so please no one take offense . The problem I have is I truly can't understand why this word provokes so much anger . I'm sure when neanderthals  were living one called the other one some derogatory name to provoke a battle . This stuff been going on as long as species learn to communicate to each other . personally I view the word as  a lazy way to say transsexual  or transgender It just doesn't seem to deserve this much hostility. I'm sorry I'm a transgender , it's just what I am.

Sorry Its a great failing of mine to take things out of context. Its seems some of us here including myself focused more on the word. And not the Context it WAS used and the mis information used to justify its use, and maginalise the negative responce this recieved.

Quote from: Androgynous_Machine on May 27, 2014, 07:11:53 PM
The information about transgender to the public is shockingly awful.  The best--if you want to call it that--people representing us is talk show hosts, Hollywood (Who routinely use ciswomen to misrepresent us), and pornography.

^^^ This is Exacly why we shouldnt forget this vvv

Quote from: Jen on May 28, 2014, 11:47:19 AM
his argument seems to be "don't you dare tell me what to say!" and "bitch, get stronger!"  Before going on to misrepresent to a national audience how "true trans" women feel about the word.

Thank you jen. (for re highlighting the real issue)

I am not upset with anybody in this thread, but I am kind infuriated with Ru and all the cis people rushing to his defense.  So please don't take anything I say to be directed at anybody here.  Trans people have the right to feel however they want about this word.

Quote from: Jen on May 28, 2014, 11:47:19 AM
I don't get why this is even an argument.   It is so silly.  This is an argument for why it's ok to use a slur?  Really?  Why?  You claim to be an ally of this group?  Why can't you just pick another word?  Is it really that hard?

That is ignoring that his argument seems to be "don't you dare tell me what to say!" and "bitch, get stronger!"  Before going on to misrepresent to a national audience how "true trans" women feel about the word.

Is this what an ally is supposed to sound like?   If so, no thank you.  And if this is typical drag queen behavior, then drag queens can kiss my ass too.  Slurs are lazy shock-value, and never funny.  People only hold onto them for humor because they are hack.  And that goes for all slurs that evolved from innocuous beginnings.  Language evolves and, if you have any empathy, you evolve with it in these cases.

Couldn't agree more.

Seriously, it's like a white person arguing for why the n word is okay and then saying bitch get stronger to those that get hurt in the process.  In that situation, they would be crucified, but it's okay to do it to us.  Obviously the situation and context is different, but it's an outsider arguing for why they can use a discriminatory word and showing no sensitivity in the process.  Really the intent and indifference in this case bothers me much more than the word itself.  ->-bleeped-<- to me is just a word, but people should consider the impact there words can have, especially when used in conjunction with specific actions or behaviors. 

And personally, I'm tired of Rupaul being the face of our "community" when he is hardly representative of us in anyway.  I can't fault him for doing his thing, but I'm kind of sick of being lumped in with him all the time. 

Quote from: Jen on May 28, 2014, 12:28:15 PM
I am not upset with anybody in this thread, but I am kind infuriated with Ru and all the cis people rushing to his defense.  So please don't take anything I say to be directed at anybody here.  Trans people have the right to feel however they want about this word.

In a way I feel Ru Paul is right we do need to toughen up a bit. You can't freak out over every person who says something negative about trans people. I'm sure Ru Paul has heard a lot worse over the years than what he has said about about this.

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 12:46:58 PM
In a way I feel Ru Paul is right we do need to toughen up a bit. You can't freak out over every person who says something negative about trans people. I'm sure Ru Paul has heard a lot worse over the years than what he has said about about this.

Whether that is true or not, is it his place to say how we should feel about a slur on our community?  He isn't a transexual and it's a bit annoying being lectured by someone who is an outsider.  Again, it's about his attitude and indifference than it really is about the individual word.  I hold no ill will towards him and he can keep doing what he wants, but I just wish he would consider those things before being self righteous. 

Quote from: learningtolive on May 28, 2014, 12:41:57 PM
Couldn't agree more.

Seriously, it's like a white person arguing for why the n word is okay and then saying bitch get stronger to those that get hurt in the process.  In that situation, they would be crucified, but it's okay to do it to us.

Because we live in a society where it is forbidden to put the shoe on the other foot.  Awhile ago Mr. Cee was found out to be messing with a "transwoman".  I put that in quotations because I've got a very strong suspicion that transwoman was actually a crossdresser or drag queen but nonetheless Mr. Cee--after apologizing profusely which is an insult in and of itself--went on to say that he only likes oral sex from transsexuals.

Imagine for a moment if, let's say Aaron Rodgers of the Green Bay Packers had said something along the lines of "I only like black women for oral sex."  He would be MURDERED by the press. 

Mr. Cee basically implied that transwomen exist to give oral sex and got a pass.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 28, 2014, 12:41:57 PM
Obviously the situation and context is different, but it's an outsider arguing for why they can use a discriminatory word and showing no sensitivity in the process.  Really the intent and indifference in this case bothers me much more than the word itself.  ->-bleeped-<- to me is just a word, but people should consider the impact there words can have, especially when used in conjunction with specific actions or behaviors. 

This is because society allows a huge pass.  In the firestorm of discussion surrounding the repeal of DADT, not in one Senate or House committee, not in the lexicon of the 24-hour news coverage, not in the political discussion, nor in any of the literally dozens of hearings did transfolk come up.  Even if it did it likely would have been used as a repercussion: "Oh if we allow gays the next thing you know transvestites and transsexuals will want in!"

Personally I put the blame squarely at the feet of the various LGBTQ "community".  It's a bad joke to call transsexuals part of that community as almost ALL the juice goes toward the homosexuals never mind that we all share in the squeeze and we are left with parched throats.

You can bet your asses if there was a talk show on national television who routinely misrepresented gays the way they misrepresent transsexuals there would be a figurative war.  That is because while we hold a voice individually we have no voice collectively, and thus are vastly ignored, marginalized, and truncated.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 28, 2014, 12:41:57 PM
And personally, I'm tired of Rupaul being the face of our "community" when he is hardly representative of us in anyway.  I can't fault him for doing his thing, but I'm kind of sick of being lumped in with him all the time.

This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This.

-AM

Quote from: learningtolive on May 28, 2014, 12:51:44 PM
Whether that is true or not, is it his place to say how we should feel about a slur on our community?  He isn't a transexual and it's a bit annoying being lectured by someone who is an outsider.  Again, it's about his attitude and indifference than it really is about the individual word.  I hold no ill will towards him and he can keep doing what he wants, but I just wish he would consider those things before being self righteous.

But I think a lot of this is because a lot of trans women don't spend much time around gay culture. He's actually pretty tame for a drag queen. Drag queens just don't pick on trans women. They make fun of everybody. They are over the top they are not politically correct. They should not be taken seriously when they say stuff because that's what they do when they put on a show. And btw they are trans women who are drag queens so that outsider comment could be offensive to some of them.

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 12:59:56 PM
But I think a lot of this is because a lot of trans women don't spend much time around gay culture. He's actually pretty tame for a drag queen. Drag queens just don't pick on trans women. They make fun of everybody. They are over the top they are not politically correct. They should not be taken seriously when they say stuff because that's what they do when they put on a show. And btw they are trans women who are drag queens so that outsider comment could be offensive to some of them.

The chief difference between your run-of-the-mill drag queen and RuPaul is a International television show. 

-AM

Is Ru Paul A voice of trans community because HIS bullsh*t  smells nice?

He did mention stepping outside of the matrix?

He may as well of said we dont exsist in the real reality, which im guessing would be very fragrant to the CIS opressive?

But if Ru Paul isnt the FACE? who?
Voluntiers Anyone?

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 12:59:56 PM
But I think a lot of this is because a lot of trans women don't spend much time around gay culture. He's actually pretty tame for a drag queen. Drag queens just don't pick on trans women. They make fun of everybody. They are over the top they are not politically correct. They should not be taken seriously when they say stuff because that's what they do when they put on a show. And btw they are trans women who are drag queens so that outsider comment could be offensive to some of them.

They may be part of the broader transgender community, but most of them aren't transexuals, including Ru paul.  The problem is he is telling a bunch of transwomen to stop being weak bitches for being offended by a term that is used against them in everday life that demeans us as people.  That would be like a white person saying "hey black people, the n word shouldn't offend you cause some people say what up n word to me in a friendly way".  It's sort of missing the point about how it's a hurtful word to the group it's targeting.  When an outsider defends the slur, it's sort of a mean indifference that I want no part of.  They may use it in drag culture, but the word is a slur directed at transexual women.  It's not theirs to claim.  I mean, sure they can do it, but don't get all self righteous when you are called out on it.  And I say this as someone who doesn't care about the use of the word.  For me it's all about context with any word that is said out loud.  I just find it funny that Ru Paul is getting all high and mighty without thinking about why people may be offended the same way racists go on about how they want to reclaim racial slurs.  If you can't take the heat, don't say it nor are you in the right because you are anti pc. 

Incidentally, a couple years ago Amanda Bynes (a straight white actress) called RuPaul a nasty slur for a gay man - and he flipped out over it. He was hurt and offended and angry, and said/wrote a bunch of stuff about how that wasn't acceptable at all.

So it's not like he doesn't understand what it's like to be on the receiving end, and he didn't think HE needed a thicker skin at the time. I'm just baffled that he remains so clueless about why people are upset, at this point.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on May 28, 2014, 01:48:53 PM
Incidentally, a couple years ago Amanda Bynes (a straight white actress) called RuPaul a nasty slur for a gay man - and he flipped out over it. He was hurt and offended and angry, and said/wrote a bunch of stuff about how that wasn't acceptable at all.

So it's not like he doesn't understand what it's like to be on the receiving end, and he didn't think HE needed a thicker skin at the time. I'm just baffled that he remains so clueless about why people are upset, at this point.

Thank you :) (Its ok to hurt people as long as its not me) Unfainess. sigh...

Quote from: Jenna Marie on May 28, 2014, 01:48:53 PM
Incidentally, a couple years ago Amanda Bynes (a straight white actress) called RuPaul a nasty slur for a gay man - and he flipped out over it. He was hurt and offended and angry, and said/wrote a bunch of stuff about how that wasn't acceptable at all.

So it's not like he doesn't understand what it's like to be on the receiving end, and he didn't think HE needed a thicker skin at the time. I'm just baffled that he remains so clueless about why people are upset, at this point.

That's a great point and I forgot about it.  One difference, though, is the intent.  Ru Paul, whether right or wrong here, doesn't intend to hurt or upset anyone.  Well, actually I think he does in order to stir up controversy, but at least he hides behind that it's just a casual expression.  Amanda Bynes meant to inflict pain and it was clear that was her intention.  Sort of different scenarios, but you make a great point.

After being called many gay slurs for most of my life, I would be very careful before even kidding around with gay people by using them.  I'm wondering if Ru Paul is giving us the pass that he wants with us?  I'd never call him such names, as they are wrong and hateful, though I would like to hear what he'd say about it. 

Quote from: Androgynous_Machine on May 28, 2014, 12:57:08 PM
Personally I put the blame squarely at the feet of the various LGBTQ "community".  It's a bad joke to call transsexuals part of that community as almost ALL the juice goes toward the homosexuals never mind that we all share in the squeeze and we are left with parched throats.

Sadly a lot of trans people are not apart of the gay community. You want to blame homosexuals but the vast majority of trans never get involved in the gay community. Maybe if more trans decided not to be so closeted about they're lives maybe they would be more willing to fight for trans rights.

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 02:14:31 PM
Sadly a lot of trans people are not apart of the gay community. You want to blame homosexuals but the vast majority of trans never get involved in the gay community. Maybe if more trans decided not to be so closeted about they're lives maybe they would be more willing to fight for trans rights.

totally agree

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 02:14:31 PM
Sadly a lot of trans people are not apart of the gay community. You want to blame homosexuals but the vast majority of trans never get involved in the gay community. Maybe if more trans decided not to be so closeted about they're lives maybe they would be more willing to fight for trans rights.

I agree we aren't very active in the community but I disagree with your reasons.

There are huge psychological, philosophical, emotional, and physical difference between transsexuals and homosexuals.  While yes, there are transfolk who are also homosexual, but the fight of homosexuality amongst homosexual transsexuals is small potatoes in the face of the larger problems of being a transsexual.  Furthermore a University of Minnesota study found that transsexuals are effectively split between the gay, bisexual, and straight orientations.  My point being, the gay agenda means squat to a third of all transsexuals.

-AM

Quote from: Androgynous_Machine on May 28, 2014, 02:23:12 PM
I agree we aren't very active in the community but I disagree with your reasons.

There are huge psychological, philosophical, emotional, and physical difference between transsexuals and homosexuals.  While yes, there are transfolk who are also homosexual, but the fight of homosexuality amongst homosexual transsexuals is small potatoes in the face of the larger problems of being a transsexual.  Furthermore a University of Minnesota study found that transsexuals are effectively split between the gay, bisexual, and straight orientations.  My point being, the gay agenda means squat to a third of all transsexuals.

-AM

And how would you know what problems homosexuals face? I'm very much out in the gay community and I would never say they face less challenges than a trans person. They have hard lives too and don't think for a second they don't.

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 02:14:31 PM
Maybe if more trans decided not to be so closeted about they're lives maybe they would be more willing to fight for trans rights.

And maybe if more who thought this did it, instead off sugesting others should it would achieve the same thing?
Didnt see you say me when I asked who?
This thread is NOT a blame game.
The OP is trying to achieve somthing with this. And keeping this thread going in a helpfull direction will do a lot more for ONE of us to do somthing about the situation.

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 02:14:31 PM
Sadly a lot of trans people are not apart of the gay community. You want to blame homosexuals but the vast majority of trans never get involved in the gay community. Maybe if more trans decided not to be so closeted about they're lives maybe they would be more willing to fight for trans rights.

I think there is an unfortunate mutual animosity from gay and trans people regarding the whole LGBT community.  From what I have seen, gay people want us out and trans people want to break away.  Personally, I think that's the wrong move and we should be more invested in the outcomes of both struggles through a more inclusive community.  However, many vocal elements on both sides seem be against this and that is sad.  Maybe it's because I used to somewhat identified as a gay male in the past (despite the fact that I've always really have been a transwoman) and that's why I will always see a connection with both struggles.  We can do more together as a unit than seperate.  It's just that we need to respect the differences from within as well.  In any case, while I can agree with a broader lgbt community, I'm not sure we are totally at fault for the negative views against us.

And I would like to add, even if we aren't involved enough in gay causes and there are problems with the unity between members of the broader lgbt community , it doesn't give people a pass to use derogatory words either way.  We should all respect each other and part of that is being sensitive to hurting one another and apologizing when we inevitably screwup at times.  And the same can be said when homophobia is embraced in certain trans circles and sadly I've seen that happen at times as well.  Neither transphobia or homophobia are cool. 

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 02:29:20 PM
And how would you know what problems homosexuals face? I'm very much out in the gay community and I would never say they face less challenges than a trans person. They have hard lives too and don't think for a second they don't.

I'm not one for splitting hairs because it's easy to get bogged down with mundane details but it is fair to say that homosexuals have a far, far, far, far, far, better shake in terms of employment, anti-discrimination laws, etc at the State level.  At the federal level it is unlawful to hire or not hire based on sexual orientation for federal jobs.

But hey, let's both agree to disagree that both transsexuals and homosexuals are equal in that regard.

Homosexuals (unless they also happen to be transsexual) do not have to fight tooth and nail to have hormones covered under health plans, electrolysis, FFS, GRS, et al.

It's a matter of priority if you will or rather a matter of self-actualization.  Orientation is an outward force that is explored after self-actualization comes to fruition, transsexualism is part and parcel of self-actualization.

-AM

Quote from: Androgynous_Machine on May 28, 2014, 02:37:38 PM
I'm not one for splitting hairs because it's easy to get bogged down with mundane details but it is fair to say that homosexuals have a far, far, far, far, far, better shake in terms of employment, anti-discrimination laws, etc at the State level.  At the federal level it is unlawful to hire or not hire based on sexual orientation for federal jobs.

But hey, let's both agree to disagree that both transsexuals and homosexuals are equal in that regard.

Homosexuals (unless they also happen to be transsexual) do not have to fight tooth and nail to have hormones covered under health plans, electrolysis, FFS, GRS, et al.

It's a matter of priority if you will or rather a matter of self-actualization.  Orientation is an outward force that is explored after self-actualization comes to fruition, transsexualism is part and parcel of self-actualization.

-AM

Transsexualism??? When did being trans become a belief system? This is why try to keep my distance from the trans community these days.

We both have it bad.  There is no prize given out for having it the worst.

Quote from: Jen on May 28, 2014, 02:47:52 PM
We both have it bad.  There is no prize given out for having it the worst.

ditto

Sighs.....
OP please shed some light on your agenda and other points you would like discussed.

LTL : I agree about intent, up to a point; Bynes was lashing out in hate, and Ru Paul is not. Even so, there comes a point where enough people have said that they *are* hurt by this for him to reconsider whether it's worth taking this particular stand... does he really lose so much by giving up the word that it outweighs the damage people have outright said he's doing to them?

(Not arguing with you, but with him. :) I actually think yours is a brilliant question - would he let a trans woman call him that slur?? If so, y'know, I'd actually concede he's being consistent and I could probably let the whole thing go, personally.)

Quote from: Heather on May 28, 2014, 02:41:24 PM
Transsexualism??? When did being trans become a belief system? This is why try to keep my distance from the trans community these days.

What?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transsexual
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/-ism


I used the appropriate suffix; the act of being a transsexual is transsexualism,  a state of being which falls directly on the self-realization or actualization pyramid:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.lucian-marin.ro%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2Fmaslowself.jpg&hash=e3d0982a03a88d22a828dc794fe88a59df03c59b)

-AM

Quote from: Jen on May 28, 2014, 12:28:15 PM
Trans people have the right to feel however they want about this word.

This is spot on, and it applies to everyone.  We don't get to control how others feel and exercising sensitivity isn't a bad thing.

And I agree with everything L2L has said in this thread, too.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 28, 2014, 02:55:39 PM
Sighs.....
OP please shed some light on your agenda and other points you would like discussed.

I do think we're going a bit off-topic. I want to get a better sense of how people have experienced the word tr***y, since it didn't have the same derogatory connotation when I transitioned so I personally haven't experienced the word used against me in real life. As far as I can tell, the significant majority of people here, whether or not they're personally offended, do not like the term and consider it a slur.

I'm actually finishing an article right now (it's in editing) comparing how trans people are treated now compared to how gays were treated during the AIDS crisis in the 1980's. Funny enough, so much of what was being talked about then is how everyone is talking now, except it was the gay people asking for better treatment. IMO, we do need to fight but gay people are in much greater positions of power compared to us, and if they were in the position of demanding that straight people pay attention in the 1980's, it's reasonable for us to demand that they prioritize us now that they're the ones in positions of power.

And yes, I encourage everyone to be as disclosed as they can, though I also understand that it can be tough to do that. It helps. In just the month or so I've been out, I've seen a significant difference in trans awareness among various people I know, and also in myself in terms of my commitment to work on more rights for trans people.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 28, 2014, 04:18:01 PM
it's reasonable for us to demand that they prioritize us now that they're the ones in positions of power.

You nailed exactly why I refuse to participate in LGBT groups.

I think the transgender community is better off fighting our own battles rather than waiting for the LGB to feed us some table scraps.


-AM

Quote from: mandonlym on May 28, 2014, 04:18:01 PM
I do think we're going a bit off-topic. I want to get a better sense of how people have experienced the word tr***y, since it didn't have the same derogatory connotation when I transitioned so I personally haven't experienced the word used against me in real life. As far as I can tell, the significant majority of people here, whether or not they're personally offended, do not like the term and consider it a slur.

I'm actually finishing an article right now (it's in editing) comparing how trans people are treated now compared to how gays were treated during the AIDS crisis in the 1980's. Funny enough, so much of what was being talked about then is how everyone is talking now, except it was the gay people asking for better treatment. IMO, we do need to fight but gay people are in much greater positions of power compared to us, and if they were in the position of demanding that straight people pay attention in the 1980's, it's reasonable for us to demand that they prioritize us now that they're the ones in positions of power.

And yes, I encourage everyone to be as disclosed as they can, though I also understand that it can be tough to do that. It helps. In just the month or so I've been out, I've seen a significant difference in trans awareness among various people I know, and also in myself in terms of my commitment to work on more rights for trans people.

I think of it like gay is the new black, trans is the new gay, and the new trans is... idk, leftover garbage?  But you see gay people having some very analogous breakthroughs these days to the ones black people achieved in the 50s/60s, and you see very similar reactions by society to the progress (not always the best.)  I think trans people find themselves now, like you say, in a place similar to gay people when they were sitting right there on the cusp of breaking out of the shadows, and if we bide our time (well, and fight for it) it's gonna get better.  In fact it has gotten measurably better- we have achieved higher status than garbage.  That's a start.

I don't really see the point of trying to win the who has it worst contest though.  We have it bad, gay people also have it quite bad, despite the progress.  And we should absolutely root for them, cause it's our turn next.

Can we afford to stand apart?

What is the difference betwwen the.

Racial Movement?
Feminisme Movement?
LGB Movement?

In comparion to Trans?

Everybody in those groops, Have an undenyable sence of unity.

Trans are diverse and as seperated on issues as every cis person. the word cis and trans is the only difference between us. Yet we spend so much time trying to say the word trans isnt relavent.

and a
Trans woman is no differant to a
Cis woman.

People of colour dont say my skin colour is irelavent they said it is relavent. It shouldnt be but it is

Woman dont say being a woman is irelavet they say it is but it shouldnt be.

LGB dont say its irelavent either, they say it shouldnt be but it is.

Why? because it is relavent, it is a difference, it does matter. Not because we want it to be. But because others make it so by treating us different because of it.

And antill we can all band together towards common goals we will never have that same momentem.

Do stealth need to come out? No but those who are need their voices heard. And those that are out need to be the ones that listen. Because stealth are stealth because they face obsticles that some more open are privilaged not to have.

But corecting mis information i believe is our first ultimate war. Acceptence is getting their by its self.

I think the mis information used to justify the words use is what the argument needs to be about.

->-bleeped-<-? as far as i know ->-bleeped-<- means man in drag (transvestite)
Transexuals are called trany because their still seen as such.
M2F transgenders are called ->-bleeped-<- because we too are still seen as such.

Thats my argument about the word.
And the mis information is my reason for being hurt.
(Im not a ->-bleeped-<- im not a man in drag)

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 28, 2014, 10:34:29 PM
Can we afford to stand apart?

What is the difference betwwen the.

Racial Movement?
Feminisme Movement?
LGB Movement?

In comparion to Trans?

Money, sympathy, lobbyists and polititians on thier side. Not to mention a whole lot of activists.

The racial movement? Yeah there are still pockets of racists on all sides but in general from what I see and experience, the racial aspect is getting along fine. sure you will have predominately white, black, hispanic, asian and a whole lot other communities. Doesn't indicate racism as much as people sharing common backgrounds and such.

The feminist movement? Yeah its all on the news how women make less than men. I really don't see this though. As a matter of fact quite a few married people I know, the woman makes more than the man. Yeah they do different jobs of course but the tables can also be turned. In the military, I don't know if it is still this way but was when I served, a male nurse was an enlisted soldier, a female nurse was a commisioned officer. Wow, how fair was that? I may be mistaken though but I believe that is the way it was.

The LGBT movement? Well just my feelings but I think a lot of times we are left out in the cold when the LGB's get something that they want. A lot of times I feel like we are nothing more than a few more numbers tacked onto the LGB to provide a little more strength. There is strength in numbers. the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell" was a big indicator of just how important I believe we are in the equation. They forgot all about us it seems and I think they should have fought a little harder. Yeah I know they are still trying to allow transgenders to serve openly but... Just my opinion though.

No I don't think we can stand apart. I definately understand we need activists and I respect the hell out of them. I love people that stand up and embrace themselves as transgender without apology, regret and shame. But I definately know why we want to be stealth too. Because the world has kicked us around so much, have laughed at us, openly mocked us through entertainement venues, have threatened us, have murdered some of us and in some cases caused us to commit the "S" word. So definatly I can understand why someone would rather just fade into the shadows and become just another man or woman in the world.

You have to be in a privileged position to be publicly disclosed. I don't resent other people for not doing it, even if I do sometimes feel like it would make it better for everyone in the long run. But I was stealth for over a decade before I looked inside myself and realized that I didn't have to be. So I encourage everyone to do the same examination for themselves, whether maybe it's worth the hassle to be able to fight for their and other trans people's rights.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 29, 2014, 08:24:33 AM
You have to be in a privileged position to be publicly disclosed. I don't resent other people for not doing it, even if I do sometimes feel like it would make it better for everyone in the long run. But I was stealth for over a decade before I looked inside myself and realized that I didn't have to be. So I encourage everyone to do the same examination for themselves, whether maybe it's worth the hassle to be able to fight for their and other trans people's rights.

I'm just in a ludicrous  position where I'm transitioning in a small suburb and I've lived in the same apt. building off a major University for the past 20 years. It's pretty ridiculous for me to be stealth. I like where I'm at and have no intension of moving,

Clarification:

The word 'trap' doesn't really apply to transsexuals.  It's more applicable to pre hrt passable cross dressers.  The word for us would be more accurately "newhalf"

Quote from: Hideyoshi on May 29, 2014, 10:51:51 AM
Clarification:

The word 'trap' doesn't really apply to transsexuals.  It's more applicable to pre hrt passable cross dressers.  The word for us would be more accurately "newhalf"

I've heard trap being used quite often about passable transwomen, but you may be right.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 28, 2014, 10:34:29 PM
Can we afford to stand apart?

What is the difference betwwen the.

Racial Movement?
Feminisme Movement?
LGB Movement?

In comparion to Trans?

Everybody in those groops, Have an undenyable sence of unity.

Trans are diverse and as seperated on issues as every cis person. the word cis and trans is the only difference between us. Yet we spend so much time trying to say the word trans isnt relavent.

and a
Trans woman is no differant to a
Cis woman.

People of colour dont say my skin colour is irelavent they said it is relavent. It shouldnt be but it is

Woman dont say being a woman is irelavet they say it is but it shouldnt be.

LGB dont say its irelavent either, they say it shouldnt be but it is.

Why? because it is relavent, it is a difference, it does matter. Not because we want it to be. But because others make it so by treating us different because of it.

And antill we can all band together towards common goals we will never have that same momentem.

Do stealth need to come out? No but those who are need their voices heard. And those that are out need to be the ones that listen. Because stealth are stealth because they face obsticles that some more open are privilaged not to have.

But corecting mis information i believe is our first ultimate war. Acceptence is getting their by its self.

I think the mis information used to justify the words use is what the argument needs to be about.

->-bleeped-<-? as far as i know ->-bleeped-<- means man in drag (transvestite)
Transexuals are called trany because their still seen as such.
M2F transgenders are called ->-bleeped-<- because we too are still seen as such.

Thats my argument about the word.
And the mis information is my reason for being hurt.
(Im not a ->-bleeped-<- im not a man in drag)

From my knowledge of the American Civil right's movement, there was a lot of diversity and lack of unity within it.  It definetly wasn't a coherent movement in it's totality and some civil rights leaders had much different goals in mind (ie, Malcolm X vs Martin Luther King Jr).  And feminists don't seem to always agree amoungst themselves either.  Usually, ideological battles will have some separation to a degree.  It's just important for us to all fight for the bigger picture rather than the small differences.  I've seen some lgbt organizations go out of there way for us, and while they could do more, most of these things are heading in the right direction.

In regards to ending transgender discrimination in the military, it will likely never happen.  Chuck Hagel discussed this recently and said the situation is different because of the medical component involved with most of us, though he said he is open to reviewing the policy. 

Quote from: Hideyoshi on May 29, 2014, 10:51:51 AM
Clarification:

The word 'trap' doesn't really apply to transsexuals.  It's more applicable to pre hrt passable cross dressers.  The word for us would be more accurately "newhalf"

yes, alot of pretty new half's on youtube

Quote from: Jess42 on May 29, 2014, 07:04:19 AM
Money, sympathy, lobbyists and polititians on thier side. Not to mention a whole lot of activists.

The racial movement? Yeah there are still pockets of racists on all sides but in general from what I see and experience, the racial aspect is getting along fine. sure you will have predominately white, black, hispanic, asian and a whole lot other communities. Doesn't indicate racism as much as people sharing common backgrounds and such.

The feminist movement? Yeah its all on the news how women make less than men. I really don't see this though. As a matter of fact quite a few married people I know, the woman makes more than the man. Yeah they do different jobs of course but the tables can also be turned. In the military, I don't know if it is still this way but was when I served, a male nurse was an enlisted soldier, a female nurse was a commisioned officer. Wow, how fair was that? I may be mistaken though but I believe that is the way it was.

The LGBT movement? Well just my feelings but I think a lot of times we are left out in the cold when the LGB's get something that they want. A lot of times I feel like we are nothing more than a few more numbers tacked onto the LGB to provide a little more strength. There is strength in numbers. the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell" was a big indicator of just how important I believe we are in the equation. They forgot all about us it seems and I think they should have fought a little harder. Yeah I know they are still trying to allow transgenders to serve openly but... Just my opinion though.

No I don't think we can stand apart. I definately understand we need activists and I respect the hell out of them. I love people that stand up and embrace themselves as transgender without apology, regret and shame. But I definately know why we want to be stealth too. Because the world has kicked us around so much, have laughed at us, openly mocked us through entertainement venues, have threatened us, have murdered some of us and in some cases caused us to commit the "S" word. So definatly I can understand why someone would rather just fade into the shadows and become just another man or woman in the world.

Did you stop reading my post wear you quote stops?

A lot of the differences these movements have now, they didn't have to start with. (the gained momentum)

If you take my post as some kind of "This would be easier if you wasn't stealth" you couldn't be further from the point I was trying to make. I was hoping that, I was pointing out that we could gain more momentum without this internalised blame game. That we need unity if we are ever going to gain that same momentum. And that, that means listening to those that are stealth because the very reasons they are is because they face problems that those that our out a privileged not to have.

And that most of the problems we face are as a result of misinformation. And that in order to gain momentum the true picture of what its like needs to be painted, and that means tackling misinformation. The public need to be aware of what our problems are before they know how to help.

But we need to stop arguing amongst ourselves, find those common goals, find that unity. (gain that momentum)
Does that mean I'm saying that you have to stop being stealth and march? no. Just the other day a stealth person pointed out a VERY important fact concerning an overlooked factor in this very thread. But they often feel un noticed, I'm saying Its about time we all listened to each other. Because that stealth person made the most important point on this entire issue. And in my opinion if we all took notice of it we wouldn't be arguing about who's right and who's wrong.

We would all be talking trying to find the best solution to our common problem's. And the biggest one by far is misinformation. Because its misinformation that is the main cause of a lot of our other problems.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 29, 2014, 12:14:45 PM
Did you stop reading my post wear you quote stops?

A lot of the differences these movements have now, they didn't have to start with. (the gained momentum)

If you take my post as some kind of "This would be easier if you wasn't stealth" you couldn't be further from the point I was trying to make. I was hoping that, I was pointing out that we could gain more momentum without this internalised blame game. That we need unity if we are ever going to gain that same momentum. And that, that means listening to those that are stealth because the very reasons they are is because they face problems that those that our out a privileged not to have.

And that most of the problems we face are as a result of misinformation. And that in order to gain momentum the true picture of what its like needs to be painted, and that means tackling misinformation. The public need to be aware of what our problems are before they know how to help.

But we need to stop arguing amongst ourselves, find those common goals, find that unity. (gain that momentum)
Does that mean I'm saying that you have to stop being stealth and march? no. Just the other day a stealth person pointed out a VERY important fact concerning an overlooked factor in this very thread. But they often feel un noticed, I'm saying Its about time we all listened to each other. Because that stealth person made the most important point on this entire issue. And in my opinion if we all took notice of it we wouldn't be arguing about who's right and who's wrong.

We would all be talking trying to find the best solution to our common problem's. And the biggest one by far is misinformation. Because its misinformation that is the main cause of a lot of our other problems.

No, I read the whole post and actually though it was interresting. I was just trying to point out that a lot of these other groups have a tremndous amount of backing from sympathisers to their plight to politicians trying to stay or get into positions of power. A lot of backing that we seeming don't have and possibly never will have. Our numbers really aren't that high or high enough to get the attention of the politicians that can change the law. I definately agree that we need to be unified and lobby for what we want. Really the whole LGBT is a good thing but often times it seems that we, the Ts, are often overlooked. Or that's just the way I feel sometimes.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 29, 2014, 12:27:55 PM
No, I read the whole post and actually though it was interresting. I was just trying to point out that a lot of these other groups have a tremndous amount of backing from sympathisers to their plight to politicians trying to stay or get into positions of power. A lot of backing that we seeming don't have and possibly never will have. Our numbers really aren't that high or high enough to get the attention of the politicians that can change the law. I definately agree that we need to be unified and lobby for what we want. Really the whole LGBT is a good thing but often times it seems that we, the Ts, are often overlooked. Or that's just the way I feel sometimes.

we're the minority of the minority

In 2008 there were an estimated 700,000 trans people in the U.S., and that's a conservative estimate given that it's based on people who self-identify. That's a lot of people! Imagine what the numbers are like now that there's more visibility, and imagine if we try to count people who are closeted. That's more than enough for a civil rights movement.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 29, 2014, 05:16:00 PM
In 2008 there were an estimated 700,000 trans people in the U.S., and that's a conservative estimate given that it's based on people who self-identify. That's a lot of people! Imagine what the numbers are like now that there's more visibility, and imagine if we try to count people who are closeted. That's more than enough for a civil rights movement.

so how do we get 700,000 people to activate.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 29, 2014, 12:27:55 PM
No, I read the whole post and actually though it was interresting. I was just trying to point out that a lot of these other groups have a tremndous amount of backing from sympathisers to their plight to politicians trying to stay or get into positions of power. A lot of backing that we seeming don't have and possibly never will have. Our numbers really aren't that high or high enough to get the attention of the politicians that can change the law. I definately agree that we need to be unified and lobby for what we want. Really the whole LGBT is a good thing but often times it seems that we, the Ts, are often overlooked. Or that's just the way I feel sometimes.

It will get moving in earnest once mainstream progressives take up the banner, which, like you say, they haven't yet.  I honestly believe, however, that it is on the verge of happening.  I am not sure what happens when things pick up momentum.  I am cautiously optimistic about how society will handle it, but ofc I am worried too.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 29, 2014, 05:16:00 PM
In 2008 there were an estimated 700,000 trans people in the U.S., and that's a conservative estimate given that it's based on people who self-identify. That's a lot of people! Imagine what the numbers are like now that there's more visibility, and imagine if we try to count people who are closeted. That's more than enough for a civil rights movement.

Is that number trans individuals? as far as a petition goes, id count for 6 votes. unless it was restricted to trans voters. because of course 2 of my sisters would vote, both theirs bfs, not to mention my dad. I could rely on a few good friends too 3/6. so imagine how big that number would be if you added supportive friends and fam to it?

Note, I'm UK. I wouldn't be able to vote US petitions. just pointing out that none trans supporters would defo throw that number into over drive.

Quote from: Jen on May 29, 2014, 09:53:26 PM
It will get moving in earnest once mainstream progressives take up the banner, which, like you say, they haven't yet.  I honestly believe, however, that it is on the verge of happening.  I am not sure what happens when things pick up momentum.  I am cautiously optimistic about how society will handle it, but ofc I am worried too.

Yeah it does seem to be on the edge getting ready to roll downhill but... Will something happen that hijacks the movement the other way? Like you I am warily optimistic.

Quote from: Jen on May 29, 2014, 09:53:26 PM
It will get moving in earnest once mainstream progressives take up the banner, which, like you say, they haven't yet.  I honestly believe, however, that it is on the verge of happening.  I am not sure what happens when things pick up momentum.  I am cautiously optimistic about how society will handle it, but ofc I am worried too.

Working on helping it along... I had my personal breakthrough moment this week when I had to confront my own transphobia about making internal distinctions between cis-normative and non-cis-normative trans people, and realizing that this is exactly how people behaved in the early days of the gay movement. Regardless of how one comes to be trans, everyone deserves to be treated equally. I've been spouting my privileged, exceptionalist bs for years without even realizing it. Time to fight for everyone.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 30, 2014, 09:23:30 AM
Working on helping it along... I had my personal breakthrough moment this week when I had to confront my own transphobia about making internal distinctions between cis-normative and non-cis-normative trans people, and realizing that this is exactly how people behaved in the early days of the gay movement. Regardless of how one comes to be trans, everyone deserves to be treated equally. I've been spouting my privileged, exceptionalist bs for years without even realizing it. Time to fight for everyone.

I think everybody does this at some point. It took me a while to understand how  (girls with guns) could still identify as female without any desire for the op. But what I did know is that before I could even begin to understand this, I would need to hae an idea of what its like in that experience. My viewpoint was (but woman means vagina) and then I realised, cis extremists would say that to me, even though I want the op. So I was essentially guilty of the same mind set some negative and anti trans people have concerning me. And since my defence is but penis is just the body. I realised then, that I still looking at them form the external idea of woman, and not just the internal experience. And was suddenly feeling very silly.

I still don't understand it. but its more in the same way I understand how a cis person couldn't fully understand me.
(even in the same jar sweets have variety). Its this as to why I find it easyer to come away from gender to exsplain ourselves. And focus much more on why we make our choices and not what those choices are.

It is always the WHY behind the what that matters. And that why is because were human.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on May 29, 2014, 10:51:51 AM
Clarification:

The word 'trap' doesn't really apply to transsexuals.  It's more applicable to pre hrt passable cross dressers.  The word for us would be more accurately "newhalf"

It is a 4chan meme that pretty much is synonymous with transwomen and mtf CD's (Usually young and passable).  I don't think it has ever been used to describe drag queens or transmen.  While it is impossible to accurately gauge 4chan do to the nature of the place; I'd say it is more a term of endearment--albeit by ->-bleeped-<-s--than a negative context.

I don't think I've ever heard of that word being used in any context in real life, it's a 4chan thing which--to no surprise to me I might add--became an internet meme.

90% of all memes come from that place, 8% from ->-bleeped-<-, 2% everywhere else on the internet.

-AM

Quote from: mandonlym on May 30, 2014, 09:23:30 AM
Working on helping it along... I had my personal breakthrough moment this week when I had to confront my own transphobia about making internal distinctions between cis-normative and non-cis-normative trans people, and realizing that this is exactly how people behaved in the early days of the gay movement. Regardless of how one comes to be trans, everyone deserves to be treated equally. I've been spouting my privileged, exceptionalist bs for years without even realizing it. Time to fight for everyone.

It's rare that anybody ever changes their mind about how they think of other people.  Even cooler that you came to that conclusion on your own.  That takes not only introspection, but also a nice big helping of empathy.  Pretty cool :).

Since I was composing a blog post about trans slurs when this topic came up here, I decided to share it. Especially since this discussion encouraged me to take my time and step up my game.

Same trigger warnings apply as within this thread. A further warning, there is some NSFW language contained within the post so be warned. Not a lot, but some.

http://passingandfailinginparadise.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/->-bleeped-<-/

Sorry for the long absence everyone. Here's the article I was working on that prompted this thread:

http://prospect.org/article/45-years-after-stonewall-lgbt-movement-has-transphobia-problem

So I read through the entire thread, then I read your article.  The fact that gender does not equal sexuality is really hitting home.  So you have 3 letters, LGB, all sexuality related, then T, gender related.  Gay is gay, lesbian is lesbian, bi is bi, but transgender can mean so many different things to different people. 

I think the first step is to make it clear that not all m2f were gay men before, or all f2m were lesbians, etc.  It should be firmly planted that the T in LGBT should not actually be lumped together in the category of sexuality.  In my own opinion, I don't think the T should be there at all. 

How can we come to gaining all the privileges and rights any opressed group fights for when within our own group there are so may differences on individual basis?  Gays can because it is their sexuality and romantic interest in the same sex.  A very clear and concise thing to understand.  Transgender to me, however, may be different than transgender to you.  In rudimentary form, it is of course, transitioning gender, but isn't so much more than just that?  I may be fine with stopping with just HRT, while you may need to have SRS to feel fine.

Try explaining that to people who aren't trans.  It is simply overwhelming and confusing.  I mean, IM trans, and yet still I get confused from time to time on folks' personal decisions in their own transitions.  I guess I view that T in LGBT as a bit of an anomaly.  it's a very personal experience and literal journey and a hard concept to describe to someone. 

Either way, its a rough road ahead.

Superbly written!

Thank you for sharing this with us.

only half way through your article. didn't quite understand how bad it was thanks for the info.

Thanks everyone! In terms of LGBT I don't think most people constitute the T being there as the T's being formerly lesbians or gay men. It's more that gender and sexuality have an intermingled relationship with each other. Though I agree personally that T needs to develop its own advocacy according to our own priorities, not necessarily against but adjacent to LGB.

The way I see it, the vast majority of trans folk are considered homosexual or bisexual at least before or after transition.

I read your article during my lunch break today and wanted to tell you that I really enjoyed it.  However, while I do think the lgb community needs to get more supportive of the T subgroup, I think things are improving.  A lot of the progress the gay rights movement has made has also led to a lot more acceptance of us.  And I even though the hrc does focus heavily on gay rights, they do care about trans rights to.  For example, they were providing money in NY to fund canvassing/lobbying groups to help get genda passed.  Sure more could be done and it should be, but I think the lgbt community has provided us much more benefits than costs.  Still, I get your point.  It's time the lgbt community realize that we are an equal partner in the movement and not the irrelevant aspect that some see us as.  I'm just not in favor of breaking off from the larger group as it helps us all to be in this together.  It's just time they rallied for us as well as you pointed.