Susan's Place Transgender Resources

If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

To answer your questions with one word, "YES." Because, I feel, it is NEVER

Quotea viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable.

So, that said, it hurts less when transitioning. The hurt is different, an by and large honestly better. Instead of it being massively internal the problems are external. No, the situation still <ahems>, so what are we to do? ... I can only answer for me but NO, I WILL NOT GO BACK. Perhaps that will explain it a bit for you dear. Besides, there is more to life than being cute. An life is SO MUCH BETTER then ever second does not hurt.

So, um, yeah.

I think transition is viable in all cases, I really, honestly do.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM


I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Suicide should never be a viable option until you have at least tried. Wouldn't you want to at least try transition? Nothing is certain. Well death and taxes are, but besides those two things nothing is certain. You have no idea if you can pass or not or find love or not.

Suicide is never a viable option over fears that are in your head. There is no way to be certain about anything. You don't know...you may think you know, but you don't know. You have not tried yet. Sit down at the mall sometime and do some people watching. I look all the time at women. I constantly tell myself, if she can pass I certainly can. There are some odd looking women out there. Very large ones as well. Tall and wide.

You are going to burn out one day. It may take until you are 60 but one day you are going to realise your head is your biggest enemy and you are fighting yourself.

What if I told you it takes 1/8th the energy to deal with this issue and be on estrogen than it did to fight not being on it? I feel great. I really do. I spent I don't know how many years going through what you are going through now. You are wasting a great deal of time arguing and fighting. Its your life. If you are happy (I don't think you are) living like you are then go on whining about it. The fact is you are not going anywhere. You are in the same place. Talking is not action. Posting on a forum is not going to fix you. Blowing your head off is stupid when you have not even tried. It is easier to give in and try and until you do that, you will never know how good it feels to get that weight lifted off your shoulders.

Quote from: Lori on July 24, 2007, 06:10:19 PM
Suicide should never be a viable option until you have at least tried. Wouldn't you want to at least try transition? Nothing is certain. Well death and taxes are, but besides those two things nothing is certain. You have no idea if you can pass or not or find love or not.

Right. Look Jessica, I see it like this...

I knew how suicide ended. That's pretty depressing and doesn't solve anything. It's just an avoidance of responsibility, IMHO.

And I knew what plodding on forever as I had been would be like. Miserable, empty, pointless. That would never change. "Because you have been down there Neo, you know that road, you know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be."

The ONLY variable, the only chance I saw was transition. It's the ultimate Do Over, you just have NO idea how things will turn out. It might be horrible. But it might NOT be horrible too. Maybe you'll lose everything you hold dear right now. And maybe you'll then find new loves and a life you can't even begin to imagine from *here*.

It's not a guarantee, but it IS a *chance*. That's more than the other options offered.

~Kate~

When a person is in their last stages of transition, I believe you will always be in transition, you have answered all those questions. I know I have and I have tried the suicide part as well, I'm not very good at it. I think one of the questions I answered to a dear friend of mine. I asked the question then answered it to her as to show my feelings. I told her that I'm going to transition into a woman, I maybe the  ugliest woman around, but I will be a woman. She looked at me and gave me a hug and said that I would never be ugly. You have to answer all those questions and more,honestly to yourself. If you can't, then don't try and transition, you will only make yourself depressed.
Sheila

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?...

I would answer yes to all of them except the last about suicide. Why, if I'm in the catagory you describe, the realistic possibility I won't be fully passable? Because, after all the years living with the alternative, it wasn't working, and changing directions was the choice I made. The reality is that you don't know what the future is in your transistion (Read Daniel Gilbert's book Stumbling on Happiness), so you to think you won't or can't transistion, expand your hoizons and experience to rethink your choices.

Suicide isn't an answer, not because it resolves things, but because it's final, and there is no changing your mind. As for, "It's just an avoidance of responsibility, IMHO.", it is one opinion, and having been at the threshold of suicide twice in my life, it's not, in my opinion, a fair response to anyone who's been there. Your whole mind and perspectives changes where reality isn't there to understand what others see but don't understand your view.

Suicide isn't about avoiding anything, or denial, or whatever anyone wants to think about it. To someone thinking about it, or worse, in the process, you need understanding with them than challenging them about life. Sorry to wander off topic, but this is a sensitive subject, beside myself having lost relatives and children of friends to it.

Take care.

--Susan--

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

How can anyone be certain about these things?

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

Searching and wondering about the exact cause of my gender dysphoria is ultimately nothing more than a mental exercise.  I know I have it and I know it needs to be treated.  Knowing what really causes it makes no difference to how I deal with it right now.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Once again, I cannot fathom how anyone can know these things ahead of time with any kind of certainty.  I suppose that if all other options were exhausted then suicide might be justified but I truly believe, no - I know- that as long as I'm breathing that there are options.  Some may be harder to recognize than others, especially if I'm very depressed, but I still know they're there.

I agree with Kate that transition is something whose ultimate effects cannot be predicted.  It's also, if you think about it, an expression of extreme optimism, a path taken with the goal of being yourself and being truly complete for the first time in your life.  If you have nothing else to lose, why not try it and see?

hugs & smiles
Emelye

"If you quite before you even try, you don't deserve to dream." Words my grandma told me before she died. I refuse to believe that this road only will lead to more pain. I started because I felt that not doing so would lead me to take my own life, so therefore I already have nothing to lose. I would transistion regardless of the knowlage of how much pain it will bring because I want to be me, not a mask.

If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable.

>My answer to all of these questions was I don't care, I need to do what is right for me. Hoping that they won't come true, but knowing that there is a possibility that all or some will.

>As far as suicide goes. My therapist told me about what I have heard here and other places. Give transition a chance, what do you have to lose? If I would have completed my suicide mission then I would have lost without even trying. I'm glad I listened as I'm not depressed anymore and if you have read any of my other postings, you will know that I'm doing just fine. If I can transition then anyone who is trans can to. I never resembled any female when I had male parts. I looked like a big redneck farmer. I was a meatcutter for 35 years.
Sheila 

Quote from: Emelye on July 25, 2007, 04:53:09 PM

I agree with Kate that transition is something whose ultimate effects cannot be predicted.  It's also, if you think about it, an expression of extreme optimism, a path taken with the goal of being yourself and being truly complete for the first time in your life.  If you have nothing else to lose, why not try it and see?hugs & smiles
Emelye

The way I see it, the choices are quite clear and so are the outcomes:

1-Stay stuck and miserable. Result: become more depressed and unhappy.
2-Give up and end it all. Result: what a waste, you surely deserve better.
3-Be yourself and go for what your heart wants. Result: you risk to have to give up the old destructive patern of self-pitying victim and marthyr and finaly be free to live your life to your full potential.
As Emelye says why not take the chance?

Good luck on your journey of self discovery and realisation.

You are very lucky, with access to this forum you know you are not alone. Others here have gone through similar feelings and moved on. Their personal paths and experiences might give you other perspectives and dissipate your uncertitudes, their  struggles and achievements might give you courage and hope, their care and support might lighten your burden, their honesty might chalenge your paterns, their love and concern might give you strength.

IT IS ALL THERE FOR YOU!

Do you really think so little of yourself to believe that you don't deserve any of it?
Can you find in yourself the compassion to give yourself the chance of accepting it?
Have you been hurt so much in the past that to protect yourself you had to close your heart and your mind?
Can you try to be gentle on yourself and step by step move towards hope and healing?

In My Humble Opinion I think these are the crucial questions that you need to consider before you can make any decisions.

Hope, Light, Love & Respect

Maebh

PS. By posting on this forum I think you have already made the first step. Keep going, don't give up!

There are all sorts of men who wish they were more masculine, had more muscle and were more handsome. Likewise as with women we all wish we were a little bit prettier and a little bit younger and more petite, except the lucky few. Say a man has to live with being picked on because he's effeminate, it will in all probability not be as serious to him if he is truly happy being male. Before I transitioned I tried to fit in as a man and when my masculinity was called into questioned I would try as hard I could to act pissed off, but that was just an act. You're unhappy now and you think you will be unhappy when you transition so maybe the question should be what will make me happier with an emphasis on the er. Who's totally happy anyway?

Those are fair answers.

Where did you find the courage to move forward? To get past these questions?  These are the big issues on my mind and I'm just not sure I can move past them.

Jessica, I have decided to answer you in a PM rather than here.

Quote from: Jessica on July 26, 2007, 08:37:41 AM
Where did you find the courage to move forward? To get past these questions?

IMHO, the only real way to put these questions to rest is to transition and find out.

Yea, I know. Bit of a tragic catch-22 there, huh? But seriously, you can ponder and wonder and fear until you're 120, but you'll never KNOW until you try.

But how do you find the courage to move forward in spite of the doubts? I guess it's different for everyone. In my case, it was finally realizing that I was running out of time, and unless I DID something about all this, I would never, ever live a single day as a female. For 42 years I put it off thinking, "someday, somehow..." and hitting middle-age made me realize I was being really stupid and wasting my life away in daydreams and wishing.

I also realized that no matter how hard we tried, my marriage was never going to be what we tried to FORCE it into being. No amount of effort or workarounds would make me a guy, either to myself OR my wife. We were just both exhausted and miserable of trying to find SOME way to make it all work as a normal, heterosexual couple.

So it was time to grow up, face facts, and try to FIX things as best I could. Yes, that meant creating new damage and hurt in the short term, but that's BETTER to me than spending another 30 years making myself and my wife miserable. It was time to accept WHAT IS and drop the delusion of WHAT WE WANT IT TO BE.

~Kate~

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

Yes. Although, I'm biased because I do and I knew before that I would. I was cute then, and even sexier now. LOL

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

At this time I find acceptance easy (even with people who know my past people just can't see me being anything other than female, whether they know or not -- my femininity isn't questioned). Saying that, however, I fully accept that I won't be acceptable in some people's eyes. I have family members who do not and may not ever accept me. But I'm not transitioning for them or for anyone else. For a very long time I lived my life trying to live up to others expectations, but I've been ripping that out of my psychie and starting to live according to my own. It has taken me years to do that. The result is that I'm much more comfortable and confident with myself than I have ever been.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

Yes. This kind of ties in with the last question.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

Oui. (yes)

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

Yes. Believe me, I tried the route of not transitioning. I've even been in the church anti-gay program. I held off for a while, but then started to realize that I had to be who I was or be miserable forever. It took years to de-brainwash and to build up the confidence to go through with the change. My family has known about my gender since I was quite young, and now I'm 27. They've been fighting against it for a long time. My mom was even told by concellers on how to deal with me, which included trying to find me male role models, forcing me to do male activities, play with male toys, etc -- back then it was believed that socialization caused someone to be trans and/or gay.

Oddly enough, they used to believe that using the left hand was bad. In school I was forced to use my right hand when I was left handed. Strangely enough, that created a dysphoria on it's own -- dyslexia. Although my dyslexia has improved since I was young, it used to be very bad. I just find it interesting that when someone takes your natural position and force changes it and the issues that come because if it.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

Yes. Although, I'm bias here, too. I have a girlfriend. And even if we broke off it wouldn't be hard for me to find anyone else. You don't want to know how easy it is for me to get into trouble and how many people seem to be attracted to me. It's kind of strange in a way, I didn't have this my entire life until the last couple of years when I started gaining confidence. Now that I've transitioned, it's even more so. Then my other trans firends are jealous of it and keep saying, "send them my way!" But it doesn't work that way in real life.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

Okay, this ties into the last question. But if you had issues finding love beforehand, transitioning isn't going to magically change that. Even very beautiful women can have a very difficult time finding love. Believe me, I know some hot women who can't find anyone because they aren't confident, clingy, and disparate. Those issues can be solved, and those issues should be solved if you want to find "love." It's something that needs work and time.

I've been there before. I know what it's like. I was there for a long time until I started working on my issues and confidence. Before everyone would throw the cliche's at me (useless  and trite).

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Been there, done that, got the mental ward wrist band. :P  These are valid fears that a lot of people go through with. There are times when I really wonder if  I didn't have all that I have if I would survive. In all honestly, I probably would have done my final act a long time ago. I

'll have to say that one should not let fear control them and decide there fate. Transitioning is a difficult thing to do where you face many of your fears. Anyone who attempts it is very brave and is doing something that most people couldn't ever do -- be themselves. So many people put on the fake smile in life and never even attempt to be who they are because of fear.

Anyone who transitions (whether I like them or not), has a degree of my respect because they are facing there fears, being who they are, and doing what so few do.

For me, transitioning is a very important part of my life. I'm breaking down walls and barriers, I'm doing stuff I've never done before, and most importantly I'm learning to be myself. It's not an easy process -- there are a lot of ups and downs -- but it's a worthwhile process. I am growing into me.

Jessica,

I had the courage to transition yes, but then I wasn't living in Alabama so I don't know what you're up against. If you can build an emotional support system with as many friends and family you can get that will help with courage. A councilor will help sort things out.

Good luck,
Jonie

Unfortunately, transitioning is filled with uncertainty and thats what makes it so hard to undertake.  But I like your fun little quiz...

QuoteIf you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

I don't know, that's a good question because passing is important to me.  I would try to settle on an existence where there is the least amount of suffering for all concerned. 

But, I pass, so this doesn't pertain to real-life.

QuoteIf you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

Absolutely.  I pass most of the time but not 100%.  As long as people don't want to engage in violent or verbally abusive actions, I don't mind some whispering here and there.  In fact, I kind of enjoy the attention sometimes.  But most people are too busy wrapped up in their own lives to be bothered though.

QuoteIf you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

I still don't know what Gender Dysphoria is, but its not a bad description of my experience.  Trying to compartmentalize it into mental/physical is not an argument I am willing to entertain.  Mental/physical is entirely a thought in itself.

QuoteIf you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

see above

QuoteIf you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If no one wants to be with me, then I have bigger problems than my GID.  Do you mean no one that wants to have sex with me?  Oh, I'm definitely going to have sex, there is no negotiating there  :P  I'm certain. 

QuoteIf you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable.

Pretty much the same as the previous question.

QuoteI know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Suicide?  My advice is not to do it.  You only live once, just f***ing go for it and see what happens.  If you've known all your life that you are trans and been too chicken, as I was, then maybe its time to do something about it.  I would rather transition than commit suicide, absolutely.

I feel that suicide should be a personal choice, although one that should have a very good justification. I don't feel that any or all of these reasons would be enough. I have feared or thought about all of them, but fear is a very poor justification.

I greatly feared not passing, to the point where I didn't come out until my early 50's. But then I discovered that there are different ways to pass, and that the manner in which I present myself is far more important than physical details.

I greatly feared being alone, and yet two weeks after I transitioned outside of work (I did the work part later), I found my partner. What if I hadn't taken that chance?

There has only been one time during my transition that I seriously considered the possibility of suicide. This last April, four months into "full time", while consulting with an SRS surgeon, I learned I had tumor. It proved to be testicular cancer. Cancer has been one of my great fears, and for two months between the diagnosis and the final post-surgery pathology report I did not know for certain exactly what the tumor was or what my prospects would be. I started out assuming the worst and feeling suicidal, but I gradually felt my way through each possible outcome that I knew about and eventually decided that I could indeed go on if it turned out to be any of those.

After all of that worry, it turned out to be one of the best possible outcomes, classic seminoma that had not spread. I just finished 3 weeks of radiation treatments, and hopefully that will be all (97.5% chance). I am back to planning for SRS.

While it was an awful experience--what pre-op wants to be treated for that--it did wonderful things for my assertitiveness and self-confidence and showed me once again that giving up is just not a very good idea.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass,  be accepted, were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, or physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

I never thought I would pass, I thought I would never be accepted, and know many I work with still see as my birth gender,  and do think GID is entirely mental and physical.

My answer is:  here I am now, unrecognizable as a man to most, even though the workplace is a problem, though one I can live with, or change.  I don't need to look for love, for in my particular case, I am blessed, and loved now for who I am, by my wife.

Suicide is a reckless solution for personal pain, and you will never really know the wreckage you may leave behind as a result of 'checking out'.  It's trite, but there are so many stories of 'what would the world be like if I had never been born?'.  The ending of all such stories along those lines show that it would be a tragedy. I have no idea now what the world would be like without Beverly.  I know the impact would be greatest on my wife, my soul mate, and my children and grandchildren.


I will never agree that suicide is a justifiable.  I have yet to see over all the horizons, and cannot inflict such pain on my family.

Bev

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

If I had transitioned, not passed and could not live as I do now, then yes Suicide would have been my prefered option.

I did not go into this aiming just to survive or looking like a guy in a dress, I wanted total integration, total acceptance and a life like any other woman. I did not transition to be a transsexual, that was my worst fear, if that had happened, then I would have ended my life.

Buffy

Quote from: Buffy on August 09, 2007, 11:44:53 PM

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

If I had transitioned, not passed and could not live as I do now, then yes Suicide would have been my prefered option.

I did not go into this aiming just to survive or looking like a guy in a dress, I wanted total integration, total acceptance and a life like any other woman. I did not transition to be a transsexual, that was my worst fear, if that had happened, then I would have ended my life.

Buffy

I was not certain of anything, except I was a woman, not a transsexual. I am not an activist or a hero. I am simply another woman, making her way through the world as best she might.

I was over 45, take note Renee Richards, and things have gone well. Voice is passable in person and on the phone. Yah!!

My ex had told me when I was preparing that she thought that softening with E would make my never very strongly male features fall within a female range. She was right.

Breast growth is adequate. Hips have spread (yikes, and they continue to do so! No sugar, no sugar ... ok, just a smidge of chocolate, if you insist!)

So I am fortunate. I know others who have not been. They struggle badly in some cases.

I cannot know what I would or might have done. Only what I have done: I now lead the life of a woman.

My friends and sons and lover love me. As do our pets!

I have worked since transition with one gg who, although I find her very petite, totally gg, is often queried about whether or not she is T. Go figure. I was standing with her when that occurred and was shocked. The person had me pegged as gg.

So, I am lucky and hate the thought of anyone suiciding. Nor would I ever advise a person to do so.

Yet, if I had been less fortunate .... I do not know. Maybe. I do not want to imagine anymore what pain that must be.

These answers are based on the claims being true, not just me being silly and believing them.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

Yes.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

Yes, although avoid social contact.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

Yes. There are always such nuts out there, why should I care what they think?

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

Yes.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

Yes.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

Would choose suicide.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

Would choose suicide.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

I don't think suicide is wrong. Just that doing it so that it will not hurt loved ones is hard (but in the scenarios with no loved ones that is not a problem).

Fear is only a manifestation of ego. Lose the ego and fear will go away. If you are choked up with so much ego based fear that you feel that you will end your own life, you have more to work on than just having your body match your inner self.

No matter how well or poorly you think you pass, or can pass, you cannnot control how others see you and how others see you is irrelevant to your core self i.e. the true self once the ego is stripped away, the true self that existed before you entered this particular sojourn and will be with you on the next.

One can replace fear, attachment, anger, pride and jealousy with love, compassion, contentment and understanding. It is not easy though, it takes almost as much work to let go of one's ego as it does to transition. Learning that how others see us is beyond our control and is irrelevant has been one of the most difficult tenets of Buddhism for me to put into practice. Most of us allow ourselves to let events control our happiness. We are driving to work, the light is green. Boom! We are happy! The light is red and doesn't want to change to greed. Boom! We seethe! We have to find a parking place, the guy to our left cuts in front and steals the space! We are about to explode! We haven't even started our workday and we are already mentally destroyed. But who destroyed us. The traffic lights? The guy? No, we destroy ourselves.

Here, the author of the thread is setting out to destroy herself by asking the wrong questions.

Posted on: August 10, 2007, 08:15:27 AM

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Quote from: Sheila on July 24, 2007, 06:38:41 PM
When a person is in their last stages of transition, I believe you will always be in transition, you have answered all those questions. I know I have and I have tried the suicide part as well, I'm not very good at it. I think one of the questions I answered to a dear friend of mine. I asked the question then answered it to her as to show my feelings. I told her that I'm going to transition into a woman, I maybe the  ugliest woman around, but I will be a woman. She looked at me and gave me a hug and said that I would never be ugly. You have to answer all those questions and more,honestly to yourself. If you can't, then don't try and transition, you will only make yourself depressed.
Sheila

Your beauty shines through even in your avatar, Sheila.

Posted on: August 10, 2007, 08:18:53 AM

---

When I clicked on this thread, I didn't get past the first question, which, quite frankly, struck me as ludicrous.

So I went back and read more:

QuoteIf you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable.

In all due respect, I find it astounding that anyone would turn their own power over to others and let others dictate the very nature of their being. But this attitude is so reflective of the superficial, vacuous Western culture, I should not be surprised at all, I guess.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Really Good questions Jessica and one's I have also asked myself from time to time. I still have a lot of doubts and worries about how well I pass but there's no way I want to be male...

I sometimes go through it all with a fine tooth comb and I am aware there's so many things I need to have done surgically and cosmetically to look completely female. I know I'm not the worst and I know I'm not the best either and I continue to struggle with myself wondering if it's all worth it. But I just can't live with the alternatives...

I think we all feel suicidal at one point or another and your feelings are normal but try and think about other things and not think of your gender all the time.

I TOTALLY agree with Melissa

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 08:31:50 AM
If you are choked up with so much ego based fear that you feel that you will end your own life, you have more to work on than just having your body match your inner self.

SO TRUE!

Quote
No matter how well or poorly you think you pass, or can pass, you cannnot control how others see you

EXACTLY

Quote
Most of us allow ourselves to let events control our happiness.
In all due respect, I find it astounding that anyone would turn their own power over to others and let others dictate the very nature of their being. But this attitude is so reflective of the superficial, vacuous Western culture, I should not be surprised at all, I guess.

Eleanor Roosevelt did say something similar once. But who listened to her?

Hope, Light, Laughter, Love & Respect

Maebh

PS And of course I would also totally disagree with Taru.
In My Humble Opinion suicide is NEVER a solution. It is not a choice: on the contrary it the ultimate surrendering of your power.
Believe me I had my share of trials, pains and tribulations: Even before birth I survived a botched abortion attempt, was rejected by my mother, sexualy, physicaly and mentaly abused by the people who were supposed to care for me and later-on I was tortured and emprisoned for no other reason than my ethnic origin. But believe me never ever would I contemplate suicide and let them win. Oh no! And if you don't mind me being blunt I will always see suicide at the last desperate expression of a totally selfish and frustrated Ego who can only assert itself in an immature, cowardly and destructive manner.

PS And of course I would also totally disagree with Taru.
In My Humble Opinion suicide is NEVER a solution. It is not a choice: on the contrary it the ultimate surrendering of your power.
Believe me I had my share of trials, pains and tribulations: Even before birth I survived a botched abortion attempt, was rejected by my mother, sexualy, physicaly and mentaly abused by the people who were supposed to care for me and later-on I was tortured and emprisoned for no other reason than my ethnic origin. But believe me never ever would I contemplate suicide and let them win. Oh no! And if you don't mind me being blunt I will always see suicide at the last desperate expression of a totally selfish and frustrated Ego who can only assert itself in an immature, cowardly and destructive manner.

Maebh,
   I love what you wrote. I have not heard it put so well. If my therapist or I should say my first one who I fired had said what you did, I would have not even thought of suicide ever again. Thank you.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on August 10, 2007, 04:34:28 PM
PS And of course I would also totally disagree with Taru.
In My Humble Opinion suicide is NEVER a solution. It is not a choice: on the contrary it the ultimate surrendering of your power.
Believe me I had my share of trials, pains and tribulations: Even before birth I survived a botched abortion attempt, was rejected by my mother, sexualy, physicaly and mentaly abused by the people who were supposed to care for me and later-on I was tortured and emprisoned for no other reason than my ethnic origin. But believe me never ever would I contemplate suicide and let them win. Oh no! And if you don't mind me being blunt I will always see suicide at the last desperate expression of a totally selfish and frustrated Ego who can only assert itself in an immature, cowardly and destructive manner.

I don't think there is  a need to win anything. Just to be happy. If being happy is impossible then change circumstances/mindset and find a way to be happy in the future. If that is also impossible in an objective way and there is a long enough period of time to assess that then I think that suicide is a good option if there are no people who would be hurt (as is the case in those hypothetical scenarios).

Quote from: taru on August 11, 2007, 01:10:00 AM

I don't think there is  a need to win anything. Just to be happy.

Again the limited Western/American Dream's vision of life! Is there nothing more to life than just being happy? What about the cost of it? What about responsibility? If driving a big gaz guzling SUV is what makes you happy why care about polution and the destruction of the environment? In the extreme if hurting or putting other people down is what makes you happy why care about their pain or their rights?

Quote
If being happy is impossible then change circumstances/mindset and find a way to be happy in the future.

Yes exactly, happiness is a state of mind, if you cannot change the circumstances you still can change your outlook.

QuoteIf that is also impossible in an objective way and there is a long enough period of time to assess that then I think that suicide is a good option if there are no people who would be hurt (as is the case in those hypothetical scenarios).

With due respect, how do you define objective way? How can anyone be objective when they are in the grips of deep depression? How can someone be objective when  blinded by fear, pain or despair, believe me I know...  I have been there. To be objective one would have to be able to look from the outside and balance the multiple blessings one is graced with against the subjective perspective of the victim mind-set.

Finally how would you know that no-one would be hurt or miss you?

There I step down from my soap-box.

HLLL&R

Maebh

PS. Of course, being an Old (and, thank God, not yet Wary) Warrior I do believe that either the light or the darkness will win or loose. You just need to know wich side you are on.

I can't imagine how much bad karma suicide would bring to the next life!



The Four Noble Truths

Quote
1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.



1. Life means suffering.

To live means to suffer, because the human nature is not perfect and neither is the world we live in. During our lifetime, we inevitably have to endure physical suffering such as pain, sickness, injury, tiredness, old age, and eventually death; and we have to endure psychological suffering like sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, and depression. Although there are different degrees of suffering and there are also positive experiences in life that we perceive as the opposite of suffering, such as ease, comfort and happiness, life in its totality is imperfect and incomplete, because our world is subject to impermanence. This means we are never able to keep permanently what we strive for, and just as happy moments pass by, we ourselves and our loved ones will pass away one day, too.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things and the ignorance thereof. Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas, and -in a greater sense- all objects of our perception. Ignorance is the lack of understanding of how our mind is attached to impermanent things. The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardour, pursuit of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

The cessation of suffering can be attained through nirodha. Nirodha means the unmaking of sensual craving and conceptual attachment. The third noble truth expresses the idea that suffering can be ended by attaining dispassion.  by removing the cause of Nirodha extinguishes all forms of clinging and attachment. This means that suffering can be overcome through human activity, simply suffering. Attaining and perfecting dispassion is a process of many levels that ultimately results in the state of Nirvana. Nirvana means freedom from all worries, troubles, complexes, fabrications and ideas. Nirvana is not comprehensible for those who have not attained it.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

There is a path to the end of suffering - a gradual path of self-improvement, which is described more detailed in the Eightfold Path. It is the middle way between the two extremes of excessive self-indulgence (hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism); and it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth. The latter quality discerns it from other paths which are merely "wandering on the wheel of becoming", because these do not have a final object. The path to the end of suffering can extend over many lifetimes, throughout which every individual rebirth is subject to karmic conditioning. Craving, ignorance, delusions, and its effects will disappear gradually, as progress is made on the path.

Guys, attachment is the cause of all suffering, all the questions at the beginning of this thread are tied to attachment, there is a path to the cessation of suffering, this path takes as much work as the path to transition, nothing is easy, sometimes I wonder if bad Karma put me in a male body this time, sometimes I think good karma did, in a way, I consider this (transsexuality) as a gift. Whatver it is, not many people have lived a life like mine and I have finally achieved what I set out to do. I never thought if I don't pass absolutely I will kill myself, I never let negative thought s like that enter into my mind, plus I don't set myself up with delusional expectations, I discovered Buddhism after I began transition, I wish I had fond it before. Still, I always determined to be "the best I could be" that is all you can do. 

Others perception of you is their perception only and completely beyond the individual's control.

The sooner we learn that the better, there is already enough suffering in life and in transition, I would beg people who are in the process (for the most part, I am done) not to let others define them, or worse yet, give them the power over teir life. This is very dangerous thinking.

So we have to work on ending clinging and craving rather than not only craving and clinging oursleves but encouraging that others do so and then suggesting suicide when the predictable outcome of suffering results from craving, clinging, ignorance and delusion.

Quote from: Maebh on August 11, 2007, 02:19:02 AM
Again the limited Western/American Dream's vision of life! Is there nothing more to life than just being happy? What about the cost of it? What about responsibility? If driving a big gaz guzling SUV is what makes you happy why care about polution and the destruction of the environment? In the extreme if hurting or putting other people down is what makes you happy why care about their pain or their rights?

This was an argument against the need to "win" anything. Much of the problem of pollution and hurting others comes from competition and trying to win things. (I do have strong stances e.g. on private cars and cities not being compatible, but that is offtopic)

Quote

QuoteIf that is also impossible in an objective way and there is a long enough period of time to assess that then I think that suicide is a good option if there are no people who would be hurt (as is the case in those hypothetical scenarios).

With due respect, how do you define objective way? How can anyone be objective when they are in the grips of deep depression? How can someone be objective when  blinded by fear, pain or despair, believe me I know...  I have been there. To be objective one would have to be able to look from the outside and balance the multiple blessings one is graced with against the subjective perspective of the victim mind-set.

I think we have understood the original posters views a little differently. I was referring to a scenario where the pretexts were objective truths e.g. "nobody will ever love the person" etc, the whole scenario is vastly different if the person just feels that "nobody will ever love me".

In the real world getting a more or less objective viewpoint would probably involve e.g.
* ask lots of people
* scourge the net for tips
* ask some professionals
* do lots of soulsearching
* change country and/or wait a few years
* if nothing else works and noone has a solution and every day is suffering - then at somepoint suicide will make more sense than further suffering.

Quote
Finally how would you know that no-one would be hurt or miss you?

In the given scenario that was given as a pretex (i.e. no-one loving). In the end it comes down to how much should people suffer before the "selfish" option. Also the people trying to keep someone alive "no, you may not kill yourself" are selfish from an another viewpoint - they put their feelings before the pain the person is facing.

Quote from: taru on August 11, 2007, 04:31:56 PM
kes you happy why care about their pain or their rights?This was an argument against the need to "win" anything. Much of the problem of pollution and hurting others comes from competition and trying to win things. (I do have strong stances e.g. on private  cars and cities not being compatible, but that is offtopic)

I would agree that co-operation is better than competition. Also that unbrided competition can lead to excesses.
But I also think that sometimes you cannot walk from the fight and have to take a stance.

Quote
I think we have understood the original posters views a little differently. I was referring to a scenario where the pretexts were objective truths e.g. "nobody will ever love the person" etc, the whole scenario is vastly different if the person just feels that "nobody will ever love me".
In the real world getting a more or less objective viewpoint would probably involve e.g.
* ask lots of people
* scourge the net for tips
* ask some professionals
* do lots of soulsearching
* change country and/or wait a few years
* if nothing else works and noone has a solution and every day is suffering - then at somepoint suicide will make more sense than further suffering.

Fair enough! I have no gripes at all with this interpretation.

Quote
In the given scenario that was given as a pretex (i.e. no-one loving). In the end it comes down to how much should people suffer before the "selfish" option. Also the people trying to keep someone alive  "no, you may not kill yourself" are selfish from an another viewpoint - they put their feelings before the pain the person is facing.

I know exactly what you mean there. Only a month ago today I stood by my moribond mother and told her that she could go in peace as there was nothing left to pardon or forgive. The proof was that we (my brother, step brother and step sister) had all travelled to be with her and were all there with her now. As she had asked the drips had been removed, she couldn't eat or drink but survived for a week. She had put on a brave fight and we were all proud of her. My other dead brother and step-brother would be with her too. In the end she passed away peacefully free from pain and mental anguish.

HLLL&R

Maebh

PS. I'm glad for these very important clarifications and hope that all misunderstandings have been resolved.

I still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option.

QuoteBuddhism and Suicide

Dukkha

Ultimately, the Buddhist perspective on suicide needs to be seen in the context of the four noble truths. The first of these sees life as generally a state of suffering or dissatisfaction (dukkha). Someone contemplating suicide is, in one way or another, in a state of suffering, presumably seeking a way to end that suffering. Death, they believe, will bring such suffering to an end. From the Buddhist perspective, however, committing suicide will only lead to further suffering - a worse state in fact.  Consequently, suicide is futile as it only makes things worse. The answer to suffering is to uproot one's innate craving (tanha) and to tread the eightfold path to nibbana or nirvana, a 'state' beyond suffering. In the early Buddhist sangha (community of monks/nuns), attempting suicide or aiding someone to commit suicide was an offence that carried with it expulsion from the order.

Solution

The Buddha's rational solution is to work with what we are and not try to take short cuts out of suffering. This is not to underestimate the terrible suffering that anyone contemplating suicide must go through when usually emotions are strong and persuasive. Support, counselling, help -  in all their various forms - are what someone in a suicidal frame of mind needs most of all.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 11, 2007, 09:09:59 PM
I still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option.

Buddhism and Suicide

The Buddha's rational solution is to work with what we are and not try to take short cuts out of suffering. This is not to underestimate the terrible suffering that anyone contemplating suicide must go through when usually emotions are strong and persuasive. Support, counselling, help -  in all their various forms - are what someone in a suicidal frame of mind needs most of all.

I totally agree with this outlook. May be I wasn't clear about what happened with my mum. She had terminal cancer which had spread to her kidneys, liver and bones. She couldn't speak, eat or drink anymore, her lungs were filling up with fluid. She didn't commit suicide per se, she just asked the doctors to let nature take its course and we supported her decision. We had all travelled from far and wide to be with her. We were all there around her to support her, talk to her*, stroke her, wet her lips (with Whiskey at the end)**, make her as confortable as possible and generally reassure her that she was not alone but loved and at peace. I don't know a lot about Buddhism but I think that compassion is one of its core value and that the way you die is as important as the way you lived.

HLLL&R

Maebh

*Even make her laugh, telling her about antics we had been up to when growing up and that she never knew about.
** When she was semi-conscious: she would then stick her tongue out and smile contently.

QuoteI still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option.

Maybe not everyone is a buddhist and believes like you do?

Although I appreciate your responses. They seem to have a heavily personal religious outlook, as such, not everyone is going to agree with them Melissa.  Personally, I believe certain precepts found within the buddhist philosophy to be true, but, I do not believe all of it.

Anyone who can get rid of all attachments (Positive and Negative) looses what it means to be human.

I understand Your stance and I respect Your right to believe what makes you happy.

It's like the Christian shouting, "But You will GO TO HELL if you suicide!  Don't you get it?"

I don't believe that either :)

Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on August 16, 2007, 04:14:25 PM

QuoteI still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option.

Maybe not everyone is a buddhist and believes like you do?

Although I appreciate your responses. They seem to have a heavily personal religious outlook, as such, not everyone is going to agree with them Melissa.  Personally, I believe certain precepts found within the buddhist philosophy to be true, but, I do not believe all of it.

Anyone who can get rid of all attachments (Positive and Negative) looses what it means to be human.

I understand Your stance and I respect Your right to believe what makes you happy.

It's like the Christian shouting, "But You will GO TO HELL if you suicide!  Don't you get it?"

I don't believe that either :)

Jessica

Had I said, "I still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option. Don't they know that they will be doomed with bad karma for several lifetimes," your point would have validity. But I did not say that, did I?

Regardless of religious beliefs, most people would not consider suicide a rational option unless they were suffering a painful and slow death due to a terminal disease.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 05:12:52 PM
Had I said, "I still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option. Don't they know that they will be doomed with bad karma for several lifetimes," your point would have validity. But I did not say that, did I?

Well, it seemed *implied* to me as well.

QuoteRegardless of religious beliefs, most people would not consider suicide a rational option unless they were suffering a painful and slow death due to a terminal disease.

You mean like GID?

True, it's not *physical* death. But it is a spiritual death, IMHO.

It's a perfectly rational option to me. It's not a protest, acting out, looking for attention, bitterness... it's just that I've lived a pretty good life thus far, done and seen and felt pretty much everything I could in this lifetime, EXCEPT the one thing I really needed to do and be. Four decades of rationalizing, justifying and hiding in pretty poetic philosophies have run out for me. I have nowhere else to go except transitioning now. I'm glad you've found comfort in buddhism now, but ya gotta understand... I've BEEN there, DONE that. I've gone through religions and spiritual systems like other people go through drugs and alcohol. Sure, I learned a lot of neat things few people will ever realize.

But in the end, nothing... and I mean NOTHING: no amount of wisdom, secret knowledge, love, money, acceptance, kindness... can ever, EVER compensate for the fact that I'm not female. Everything else was just a distraction, a desperate attempt to avoid facing that awful truth. If God Himself offered me eternal life in Heaven, or a mortal life as a woman filled with all the usual pain and suffering... I wouldn't hesitate a moment to take that normal life I deserved. Nothing in existence means more to me. That's sad, and even insane, but... it just is.

I keep saying I "have to make it work" now. But ya know, I'm getting worn out from that too. From *making* things work. I kinda need the world to meet me half-way and LET things work now. Just let me be a woman. No more needing to be some kind of mega-enlightened superhero just to survive the day without having my self-esteem crushed flat. I just want a normal life, normal problems, no better or worst than any other woman. I can't keep waging this war simply to EXIST forever. For now, I'm hangin' in... but I have my limits.

~Kate~

Kate,

In all due respect, you make yourself look shallow and thoughtless by exclaiming, "Buddhism, been there, done that." It is not possible to have reached any minimal level of mindfulness and awareness and reject it so callously.

I am still astounded that we are presenting suicide as a rational option here, knowing that newbies come here looking for guidance. It is irresponsible.

I hope you can find peace, Kate.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 08:39:30 PM
In all due respect, you make yourself look shallow and thoughtless by exclaiming, "Buddhism, been there, done that." It is not possible to have reached any minimal level of mindfulness and awareness and reject it so callously.

I speak for myself only. I realize others have found great comfort and peace in religion. For me, it didn't hold. A mirage that melted in my hands.

QuoteI am still astounded that we are presenting suicide as a rational option here, knowing that newbies come here looking for guidance. It is irresponsible.

It's a tricky balance. I'm not comfortable in pretending many if not most people here don't seriously contemplate suicide. I'm also not comfortable in seeming like I/we advocate it - I don't. There HAS to be another way. But it IS a reality of this condition, and *understanding* how it can become a rational choice for some of us is important, IMHO. Platitudes and poetry and nirvana just don't cut it once you get past a certain point.

This is how *I* feel. Are you telling me I should keep that inside and not bother everyone with it for fear of encouraging them to feel likewise? I don't disagree necessarily, and usually bite my tongue on the subject. I really don't know Melissa, this whole thing is just SO bloody confusing and conflicted, it's like you can't take a breath without hurting SOMEone.

~Kate~

Buddhism isn't a religion the way Westerners define religion.

Kate:

QuoteI speak for myself only. I realize others have found great comfort and peace in religion. For me, it didn't hold. A mirage that melted in my hands.

But you haven't been there, Kate.

And I will repeat, promoting suicide as a rational option to end GID is beyond irresponsible. You backed off of this a little in your last post, that is good.

QuotePlatitudes and poetry and nirvana just don't cut it once you get past a certain point.

Kate, this is a really shallow view of Buddhism or any spiritual belief if that what is if you are alluding to. As long as we place such high import on superficiality, and ignore our true self, our spiritual self, we will suffer immensely. And I am not referring to any religion when I speak of finding oneself spiritually.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 09:07:19 PM
promoting suicide as a rational option to end GID is beyond irresponsible.

I'm not promoting suicide in any way, nor suggesting it as a means to "end the GID." I'm describing how I feel, and why I feel this way. It has nothing to do with avoiding suffering, or ending the GID, or finding an easy way "out." Doing something so drastic and permanent as suicide in an emotional outburst is just plain stupid, IMHO. I GET why, I know that feeling too... but I ALSO know that moods pass, even the most dispairing, darkest, hopeless ones. Been there, done that TOO: up, down, up, down, euphoric, suicidal... on and on. I don't take ANY moods serious anymore. Just more clouds passing in my sky.

And suicide before even TRYING to transition? Geez, people owe themselves to at least give it a shot. Yea, it's terrifying to even think about it. But like it or not, YOU ARE GOING TO DIE someday. Leaving this life as some sort of a martyr, now or in old age by avoiding this "for the sake of others"... well, to me it's just yet ANOTHER invented delusion to avoid facing oneself, and one's Truth.

But... I'm TIRED. Spiritually and emotionally exhausted. I stopped running because I just couldn't anymore. I stopped looking for refuge in every distraction I could find. I'm not bitter. I'm not angry. Just kinda sad, but in a bittersweet way.

It's like this huge, scary dragon has been chasing me all my life. And I ran and ran, hiding behind rocks for a time, behind trees on occasion.... but always running, terrified, on and on...

And now I just said enough already! And stopped and faced the stupid thing. And here she stands now, looming over me, scary as heck. I feel her hot breath. I see her claws scraping the dirt. And I just don't know now what's going to happen. This is IT. This is my fate. This is THE moment my life has been leading up to.

I just can't figure out if she's getting ready to kiss me or swallow me whole. Either way, I'm not budging an inch. No more running. No more hiding. Either way, I've surrendured to my fate.

~Kate~

Kate, I hope you are getting help.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to get funding to set up a trans hotline, where trans man and women can call during periods of crises and get immediate help.

Posted on: August 16, 2007, 09:51:28 PM

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Quote from: regina on August 16, 2007, 09:15:46 PM

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Jessica... rather than asking a lot of abstract questions and our opinions and making a loaded judgment about how we feel about suicide, I would rather hear what's going on with you that compelled you to write this post? Is this where you are recently? Do you feel hopeless about your life and transition? Sorry, I don't know your story, but how far have you gone into transition? Don't dance around it, please talk to us, I want to hear.

XO
Gina M.

Nice, Gina, that tact is often used in group therapy. Use "I" statements.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 09:53:48 PM
Kate, I hope you are getting help...

It's entirely up to me now. Everyone else... you, the beautiful people here, my wife, my therapist... all got me to where I needed to be. But now I gotta find my own way.

And hey, I don't mean to demean Buddhism. It's a beautiful religion... or Path I guess is a better word, yes? I studied it, and liked it, but it quickly led me to Zen which REALLY caught me... until I got the irony, lol. Zen is cool. Keep it in mind. No pun intended, rofl.

If it gives you peace, then I'm happy for you.

But this GID thing... THATS my "religion." That's my world, my reality, my EVERYTHING. All my answers lie within it, all the truths of this world, or at least of MYSELF *are* the GID. For me, there IS nothing else. Everything comes from it, everything is an expression of it, every leaf and breeze and thunderstorm is a manifestation of my not being a girl.

Yea, I know... lock me up in a padded room already, but it is what it is. I have no idea how or why things happened this way, but I can't deny it anymore. Nothing... no religion, no therapy, no philosophy surpasses GID - they all exist WITHIN in. It created them.

And it created ME.

~Kate~

A topic that formulates the question;  Is it better to die or live in vain? If one had nothing to look forward to except pain, semi-consciousness due to a disease, inability to communicate with loved ones, and devastating the family finances to stay alive in a drugged, semi-conscious state, then maybe one could contemplate suicide as an option.  If not the case, I'd rather keep living. There is always some chance of better times ahead.

Quote from: Kate on August 16, 2007, 10:27:00 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 09:53:48 PM
Kate, I hope you are getting help...

It's entirely up to me now. Everyone else... you, the beautiful people here, my wife, my therapist... all got me to where I needed to be. But now I gotta find my own way.

And hey, I don't mean to demean Buddhism. It's a beautiful religion... or Path I guess is a better word, yes? I studied it, and liked it, but it quickly led me to Zen which REALLY caught me... until I got the irony, lol. Zen is cool. Keep it in mind. No pun intended, rofl.

If it gives you peace, then I'm happy for you.

But this GID thing... THATS my "religion." That's my world, my reality, my EVERYTHING. All my answers lie within it, all the truths of this world, or at least of MYSELF *are* the GID. For me, there IS nothing else. Everything comes from it, everything is an expression of it, every leaf and breeze and thunderstorm is a manifestation of my not being a girl.

Yea, I know... lock me up in a padded room already, but it is what it is. I have no idea how or why things happened this way, but I can't deny it anymore. Nothing... no religion, no therapy, no philosophy surpasses GID - they all exist WITHIN in. It created them.

And it created ME.

~Kate~

Kate, you really seem to be going off the deep end, and I hope you get some help, really. And there is help out there for those who are willing to recognize they have a problem.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 11:08:43 PM
Kate, you really seem to be going off the deep end, and I hope you get some help, really. And there is help out there for those who are willing to recognize they have a problem.

Well, THAT's not so helpful.

It's ironic how people can believe an omnipotent, supernatural being impregnated a mortal woman, who had the son of God who walked on water, died and rose from the dead... and that's the measure of sanity and realism in our culture.

But try to explain myself, how I truly feel inside, what this means to me... I mean finally really just saying it like it is... and I'm "off the deep end."

I didn't just dive off into the depths yesterday, Melissa. This has been my LIFE. I evolved this way. GID was and is my seed and my womb. I've always wondered if anyone else felt this way about it all - if they had this particular "take" on it. But it doesn't seem so. Your response is kinda what I figured.

But whether I'm totally nuts or not, it IS what I feel and believe and know. And if you can now see how GID *is* me, in my mind anyway, you might understand my *personal* view on suicide.

And maybe you can help someone else because of that. I dunno. But it's a thought I offer.

~Kate~

Quote from: Butterfly on August 16, 2007, 10:59:25 PM
A topic that formulates the question;  Is it better to die or live in vain? If one had nothing to look forward to except pain, semi-consciousness due to a disease, inability to communicate with loved ones, and devastating the family finances to stay alive in a drugged, semi-conscious state, then maybe one could contemplate suicide as an option.  If not the case, I'd rather keep living. There is always some chance of better times ahead.

My Mother died two years ago now, she had Dimentia and had several massive strokes. She was unable to breath on her own and had no future.

I took the decision to turn off her life support, my Father could not bring himself to to make that decision. I viewed this as a release from a suffering she would never recover from, some view this as assisted suicide.

I tried my own suicide twice, when I was struggling with the fear and paranoia of GID, but then realized that there was hope for the future. I agree that if there is any chance of better times ahead, a chance at a fulfilling life then it should be taken. I made that choice for my Mother because she couldn't.

Buffy

Kate, I think it might help you to be telling this to a professional.

Melissa, You believe in the Buddhist philosophy, that's fantastic.  It really is wonderful when someone finds a compatible life philosophy that clicks perfectly for them. I wish I were that lucky.  Like Kate, I've read about it quite a bit about it and have found some wonderful things about it.  I also found some things I didn't particularly like much, but overall it does have some very good insights into life. With that said, I echo Kate's thoughts almost identically.  Maybe I've slipped off the deep end too, but I can't imagine a better person to slip off the deep end with than Kate.

Regina
I would rather hear what's going on with you that compelled you to write this post?
Hopelessness regarding any possible future.  I don't see any possible future where I can even potentially be happy.

Is this where you are recently? Yes, for three years.

Do you feel hopeless about your life and transition? Hopeless is just a word, it honestly and truely doesn't even begin to describe how I feel.

What compelled me to write this was that at some point there has to be an end.  I think I am being pretty realistic about my future possibilities.  I've been through counselling, I've told my family about my issues, and after a few years of thinking about my options; I am pretty certain that my best option is the one that everyone seems to dismiss.  I wanted to see how others felt looking at life through my lenses, hence the questions. To see if they would reach the same conclusion.  Apparently, suicide is so reprehensible in most belief systems and / or philosophies, that few would choose it.  Maybe that's why I don't like those belief systems.  To me, that is the one door that I'll always have which provides some small comfort in a comfortless situation.

Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on August 17, 2007, 01:00:46 AM
... Maybe I've slipped off the deep end too, but I can't imagine a better person to slip off the deep end with than Kate.

... I don't see any possible future where I can even potentially be happy.

What compelled me to write this was that at some point there has to be an end.  I think I am being pretty realistic about my future possibilities.  I've been through counselling, I've told my family about my issues, and after a few years of thinking about my options; I am pretty certain that my best option is the one that everyone seems to dismiss.  I wanted to see how others felt looking at life through my lenses, hence the questions. To see if they would reach the same conclusion.  Apparently, suicide is so reprehensible in most belief systems and / or philosophies, that few would choose it.  Maybe that's why I don't like those belief systems.  To me, that is the one door that I'll always have which provides some small comfort in a comfortless situation

How would anyone pretend to know your pain, Jess? I can't. I don't credit the smartest, most philosophical, most compassionate, most empathic beings on this board with having even the remotest clue about the interior and exterior struggles you are making. Simply said, we walk in our own shoes.

You think, from your statements, that perhaps you share the deep end with Kate. Yet, what I thought I read Kate say was that she isn't ready to end her current life. Instead, she seems to be saying that rather than do so, she is ready to go ahead and dive into the pool of transition without really knowing how deep or wide it is. She will trust her ability to swim; as she realizes her ability to stand ashore and think about swimming will no longer pass as a solution.

We never know what will ensue when we begin therapy, hrt, endo visits.

We never know what will ensue when we find someone we love, who says he or she loves us. We look for, hope for, and expect an unconditional love, one that will enfold us no matter what. That seems to be a difficult achievement for conditioned human beings to complete. Few of the current six plus billion seem to make it there.

Okay, all of your questions are good ones. Eight little questions. Rather simple ones, yes? 

How are they answerable, good though they are? Some of the questions one can never be certain about. Others require a deeply personal searching that can only be done by the answerer. Most require a thing I have never been very good at: prognostication. Knowing ahead (of time.) My range has never traveled that far before me.

I didn't know how my transition would go beforehand. In fact, it has not gone in any way as I imagined it might. Some of it has gone as I hoped. Other things I have had to navigate with a brand new plan. Sometimes three or four new plans before I hit on one that wasn't changed by an unforeseen circumstance.

Love left, and returned in a different form. Employment left and returned in a different form. The old acceptance has mostly gone, but has also returned in a different form. There was no ability on my part to predict with any certainty. Some days I predicted based on my own worst fears and suppositions. Other days I predicted based on my own most delusional hopes and dreams.

I think what is always incumbent on me is that I realize, every day, which one of those predications I am using to decide what my future might look like. And adjust my views accordingly.

I really do hope that you do not end your own life. The reflection and the struggle you go through show me what I would judge as a sensitive and thoughtful person. Perhaps not a philosopher or a big thinker: the world has plenty of those enough already.

But, a deeply compassionate and caring person: the sort the world never seems able to stockpile enough of.

Do not despair of having love come to you. If you love, love cannot help but seek its own. Do not despair of ever being wanted, for want seeks to make itself whole. Do not despair of ever being seen as who you are, for releasing oneself to oneself finally means that everyone will see you as who you are. (Just recall that none of us is, physically, anyone other than the pieces that have coalesced to form us. Those may be changed in some ways, but not in others.) Do not despair that your dreams will not come true. Dreams are dreams, they may enhance life, they may participate in life. They are not life.

I always try to remember what Thoreau (one of those philosophers ;)  ) said about dreams: Build your castles in the air, just build foundations that touch the ground.

I have worked with people before who were suicidal. Some completed their ideas of doing away with their current lives. Others never made it quite to that point.

I have no lecture, no plea for you to mull over. Dying comes to each of us. We all pass when it comes to death. Sometimes we might choose the when, within limits; but all of us are heading that way from the very moment we are born.

I hope you choose to live a while longer, as long as is possible. For your value shines: even through the medium of pixels and aether. I hope you are able to see that you do make a difference in the world, just as you are right now. Just as you will be if you do join Kate in that dive into the pool. Standing at the edge and thinking that you will never survive the plunge will not work anymore, will it?

:-* I wish that I, or someone, could bring you comfort right now. This very second. But, you would have to accept that comfort, wouldn't you? No way to enforce your acceptance by anyone but yourself.

It's good to talk with you. I hope to do so again. Hugs,


Nichole 

Jessica posted:


  News and Information / Introductions / Re: Hello       on: June 24, 2005, 01:24:56 PM

QuoteThank you for the warm welcome, I needed that Smiley



As long as no one minds life stories, feel free to skip it all if you do.

Somehow it is much easier to use the Internet for me.  I don't have to face anyone's reaction that way I guess.  I think I just need to know that someone out there knows how I feel and what I am going through.  That will make me feel so much better.

I am a 30 year old male and I am married with no children.  My wife is my best friend in the world, we have known each other for 6 years and have been married for 2.  Before we were married I told her, the first person I have EVER told, about my incongruent gender feelings.  I felt she had a right to know. I also told her that I was marrying her because she is my best friend and I love her, but that I never forsee me being happy with my life because of those feelings.  I was as honest as possible with her.  She took it suprisingly well.  Basically, she doesn't understand, she doesn't want me to talk about it, and she pretends it doesn't exist.

Well, 4 months ago she wanted me to see a therapist for depression.  I have been depressed for as long as I can remember, but it had gotten to the point where it is affecting our relationship.  All I do is go to work and come home and go to sleep.  Things are getting more and more difficult to deal with.  Anyway, I have been seeing a therapist for the last four months. I was diagnosed with Severe Chronic Depression  I started taking Paxil and I am doing all of the things he has me do for depression.

Every session he asks me if I am still doubtful whether or not therapy will work, and every session I tell him that I am more than willing to try the therapy, but I have my doubts as to its effectiveness.  Well my last session I guess he got perturbed, or upset, I am not sure which, he may have just been curious, I don't know, but he said, "The combination of therapy and drugs works to cure depression in a very statistically significant number of cases, what makes you so different?"  I don't know what happened within me, I guess I broke down, but I started crying and had to have a 5 minute break.  After I had collected myself a little bit, I went back in and with 5 minutes left in my therapy session, I told him about me... the real me.  To which he responded basically, "So do you prefer men? I work with homosexuals all the time."  I really don't think he understands at all where I am coming from or what my life has been like.

That was two days ago.  I have been suicidal for a long time but I have never acted on it and have never attempted it because I care very much about my family and I know how it would hurt them.  However, in the past two days I haven't slept and have eaten very little.  I don't have very many friends at all, and certainly noone I can talk with about these kinds of things, not even my wife because she wants to pretend this doesn't exist.

I can't help but think that just maybe it's my time to go.  I mean, my mother passed away about 10 years ago, my father would be devastated if I told him how I feel, my wife and I have an uncomfortable feeling between us because of my depression which is only getting worse not to mention the fact that we have this HUGE issue that affects my life and every part of it that can't be discussed, and my therapist has no idea how I feel and I don't think he really cares to know.  My brother would miss me horribly.

There HAS to come a point where suicide is a viable option.  Where is that point?  If I were to tell my dad and brother the absolute truth it would hurt them more then if I were to have died.  If I were to die, my wife would be sad, but at least she would be able to get on with her life.  My work would miss me, but only because I am really good at what I do, but they could hire someone else.  The only thing it's not best for is my puppy.  I would never be able to go through the transition, I have read on how difficult it is, and I am not a strong enough person to do that, nowhere near strong enough. Not to mention the fact that I look like an ogre in a dress.  I hate the way I look, I hate the way I feel, I hate being me, and I can't stay the way I am, I am a wreck, and it's only getting worse.

I guess my question is, where do I go from here?

So you need FFS. You have a good job apparently. Before you kill yourself if you can't afford DR O, take a chance with one of the bargain doctors, there is a solution to everything. I successfully transitioned in my fifties, when I began, I was on unemployment!

So while you have been wallowing in self-pity, you have lost two years that if nothing else, you could have been doing hair removal and HRT and saving for FFS.

Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 10:27:54 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 17, 2007, 09:34:50 AM
So while you have been wallowing in self-pity...

are you really bringing this up because you have any plan to make positive changes in your life, or is this just another excuse to 'discuss' suicide as a viable option?

I saw...

Quote from: Jessica on July 26, 2007, 08:37:41 AM
Where did you find the courage to move forward? To get past these questions?  These are the big issues on my mind and I'm just not sure I can move past them.

... as an encouraging sign that perhap a slight crack is developing in her stand. She asked for help and hope. She deserves both, no matter how frustrating or exasperating it seems at times. Tree roots crack even the biggest boulders... in time.

I'll say it again Jessica: TRANSITION = HOPE

~Kate~

Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 10:27:54 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 17, 2007, 09:34:50 AM


So you need FFS. You have a good job apparently. Before you kill yourself if you can't afford DR O, take a chance with one of the bargain doctors, there is a solution to everything. I successfully transitioned in my fifties, when I began, I was on unemployment!

So while you have been wallowing in self-pity, you have lost two years that if nothing else, you could have been doing hair removal and HRT and saving for FFS.

Ah well, whatever else, that 'suicide as a viable option' line has been floating around for at least 2 years in her life (and I suspect many more)... waaay outliving its usefulness. The other bit I take from that quote (thank you for that, Nicole) is how down on psychotherapy she is without really giving it much of a chance. See, despite her life being an unhappy mess, she seems to think she's smarter than the person who's willing to sit with her and help her untangle the messy knots of her existence. Our girl has already decided what can and can't be done, so, yup, maybe we're not talking about someone who plans on changing anything, much less her attitude. What I would want to ask her is, 'are you really bringing this up because you have any plan to make positive changes in your life, or is this just another excuse to 'discuss' suicide as a viable option? As I wrote earlier, that discussion is a waste of my time, very much enabling someone who clearly needs help, and I ain't going there. She's still rather young and, I hope, has more years in which to make a difference in her life. She doesn't know how lucky she is to even have the chance to transition this early in her life. I wish I could have back some of those years she's so willing to throw away with her 'viable option.'

ciao,
Gina M.

I remember in my late twenties how I first heard about sex change I was under the impression that I would not be allowed to transition because I was too tall and that I would not be accepted because I couldn't pass. Well, I don't regret having to wait, it sure does strike a nerve when I see this "woe is me" attitude from younger Transwomen.

Whatever you do, dont kill yourself.  Its tempting at times.  Been there done that.  Get help.  Call somebody.  Get yourself into a hospital.  Just dont do it.  Every day is a new door and the possibilites are endless.  A fact that you wont know if you  are dead.

Kate,

I know how you feel, and am sorry for some of the responses here that seem to put you down and make you feel even worse.  That's so unfair.



(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on August 17, 2007, 10:05:09 PM
Kate,

I know how you feel, and am sorry for some of the responses here that seem to put you down and make you feel even worse.  That's so unfair.

No one is trying to put Kate down, feeling victimized is not healthy. Whatever it takes to jolt people out of their victim syndrome, is justified IMO. Remember, it is not all about Kate, or Kristi, or Nicole (me) It is about the community of people reading this forum. And I will continue to speak out against the victim mentality that pervades many of these threads.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 17, 2007, 10:44:39 PM
No one is trying to put Kate down, feeling victimized is not healthy. Whatever it takes to jolt people out of their victim syndrome, is justified IMO. Remember, it is not all about Kate, or Kristi, or Nicole (me) It is about the community of people reading this forum. And I will continue to speak out against the victim mentality that pervades many of these threads.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 17, 2007, 10:44:39 PM
Kate, you really seem to be going off the deep end...

While I agree that the victim mentality is not helpful, neither is talking down to people and making condescending statements like this.  Nor is invalidating another's religious experience.  Neither Kate nor I said it was all about either of us.   Please don't put words in our mouths.  That does not help this discussion, or any other.  I try hard (albeit imperfectly) to exemplify what it means to care for others here.  I do agree that it is all about community.  Towards that end you might careful think about how you phrase things.  You have some really good things to say, but they often come out sounding like insults.  I do not think you intend for it to be this way.  Often how you say things is at least as important as what you say.  Do you want people to listen to you?  If so, instead of putting people on the defensive, treat them as adults.  You may wish to explore some of the old transactional analysis literature to help you discover how to do this.

Peace, please!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 17, 2007, 10:44:39 PM

No one is trying to put Kate down, feeling victimized is not healthy. Whatever it takes to jolt people out of their victim syndrome, is justified IMO. Remember, it is not all about Kate, or Kristi, or Nicole (me) It is about the community of people reading this forum. And I will continue to speak out against the victim mentality that pervades many of these threads.

Well said Melissa. I am not saying it is Kate's or anyone else's case but I think and know from experience that pampering to the victim syndrome does not help at all but only confirm and reinforce the despair. If I can use a nautical analogy again, when your boat is stuck in the mud the only way to refloat it again is to jetison old stuff overboard and rock the boat to break the suction that hold it there even when the tide comes in again. Sitting there pulling your hair, lamenting, or complaining about the lack of proper charts won't change anything.
Empathy and simpathy alone are not enough either. They can help only to break the feeling of isolation but to change the situation positive and decisive suggestions and actions are needed too.

Quote from: Kristi on August 17, 2007, 11:51:26 PM

While I agree that the victim mentality is not helpful, neither is talking down to people and making condescending statements like this.  Nor is invalidating another's religious experience.  Neither Kate nor I said it was all about either of us.   Please don't put words in our mouths.  That does not help this discussion, or any other.  I try hard (albeit imperfectly) to exemplify what it means to care for others here.  I do agree that it is all about community.  Towards that end you might careful think about how you phrase things.  You have some really good things to say, but they often come out sounding like insults.  I do not think you intend for it to be this way.  Often how you say things is at least as important as what you say.  Do you want people to listen to you?  If so, instead of putting people on the defensive, treat them as adults.  Peace, please!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

I totally agree with Kristi too. Sometime the victim is so much locked and, in some perverse sense, comfortable into that role that anything said or done to help will be misinterpreted and seen as an other attack in order to confirm and strenghten that feeling of victimisation. So yes it is very important to be clear not only about what one says but also how one says it. Since this is about community I think that while being frank and honest one has to think about the impact of what one is sharing will have on others. We are all supposed to be responsible adults and while jettisoning ones old baggages might help, dumping on other won't and can be very damaging.

HLLL&R

Maebh.

Quote from: NicoleNo one is trying to put Kate down, feeling victimized is not healthy. Whatever it takes to jolt people out of their victim syndrome, is justified IMO. Remember, it is not all about Kate, or Kristi, or Nicole (me) It is about the community of people reading this forum. And I will continue to speak out against the victim mentality that pervades many of these threads.

Quote from: Maebh... I think and know from experience that pampering to the victim syndrome does not help at all but only confirm and reinforce the despair. ... Sometime the victim is so much locked and, in some perverse sense, comfortable into that role that anything said or done to help will be misinterpreted and seen as an other attack in order to confirm and strenghten that feeling of victimisation. So yes it is very important to be clear not only about what one says but also how one says it. ...

Quote from: ReginaA big issue in suicide prevention is that other people's sympathy and empathy are can be manipulated by SOME people who use their suicidal intentions as a way to get attention and to have people take them seriously. It's a way of gaining power when they feel otherwise powerless. ...

People who are caregivers getting too wrapped up in a suicidal person's issues will not stop them from making an attempt but they will make those caregivers very quickly get burnt out and often angry. ...

... an endless stream of generalized offered support creates support junkies and people who can only feel special when others fawn over them and acknowledge their victimization. If anything, it can paralyze those people into being unable to take action in their lives unless the lifeline of support is going into their veins and framing oneself as a victim is placing oneself in a passive role. To throw in another cliché, it becomes a classic enabler situation which happens so often on Internet forums that are supposed to be helping people. Giving support isn't quite as simple as 'nice people give support' and 'mean people don't give support.' (I'm NOT saying anyone directly said that here, but it's a statement you see on practically every Internet support forum). Moreover, without both parties actively listening to each other, support just isn't going to happen.

Some excellent points. Especially the one I bolded.

Tough love, in my experience, is a couple of things. 1) A frustration on the part of the giver that the receiver is not to the point that the giver has reached. I have seen that most often in AA/NA support groups where confrontation, another designation for building resistance, is often the order of the day. 2) Trying to smash my way to victory over the irrational and frustrating.

Think about it this way: if someone attempts to push you out of their way in a crowd, do you resist their push and even push back? Second Law of Thermodynamics: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

To overcome resistance I have found with many years of practice that the so-called confrontational approach seldom works, and that when it does, it works for a brief period and is generally followed by a relapse of the person so confronted. Most of us do not have life-changing epiphanies that last when we are being yelled at. Generally, we will do what is necessary to stop the yelling and go about our business as usual when the shouters have departed.

Listening means a couple of things. 1) Shutting my thought flow and attempting to hear what the other is saying. Rather than, say, maintaining a constant stream of my own thought with markers made for points to go back and undermine. Or, repeating within myself a constant mantra of conversation about how this is the way and that isn't.

In other words, listening means hearing what and how a person talks or writes without prejudicing my ability with my own slant on what they are talking/writing about. (Which is why I have read this and then left it alone for about two hours now. I needed time to jettison my initial responses.)

2) Listening also involves reflection. By that, one attempts when she does speak, to attempt to get the other to see whatever conflicts the other may have shown in what she did say. A good listener is a mirror to the other, not a tv screen that sends things to the other.

Change does not, in my experience, come through winning over someone rationally. How many anorexics have I worked with who rationally are severely underweight, but can only see themselves as bloated and obese? Rationally for them simply means that they need to lose more weight in order to look good. Anorexia, addiction, and a plethora of other ills we see are not amenable to rational argument. If they were the sufferer would probably not suffer with the ailment.

Change does come when the dissonance of one's behavior with what they conceive of as a goal becomes too great to tolerate for the sufferer. Not for me, but for the sufferer.

I am not certain that everyone on this thread is MTF, but think back to where you were, if you can, to just before you made a decision to change the way yourself and others viewed your gender. Turmoil, doubt, frustration? Some may have been in despair.

If I am in despair the absolute last place I am able to go directly is to well-adjusted and peaceful. Instead, as Kate pointed out so very well, a much smaller step is necessary to get me on the road to well-adjusted and peaceful. Perhaps, from despair I could go to resentment. Then I might get angry. Then I might question. Then I might get frustrated. Then I might want revenge. In that progression I might be able to effect some change as I move up the scale and away from despair. I may eventually get to well-adjusted and peaceful.

Change is always incremental. I credit Kate for being able to see some movement with Jessica. But, Jessica and all of the rest of us still exhibit signs of resistance whenever we have a life-event that presses on us. Two years may not be wasted. I may wish I had two extra years of full-time, or two extra years of post-op, but the fact remains I am not the one who is contemplating the merits of suicide.

Internet forums are good for some types of support. They are not good for suicidal ideation prevention and suicide prevention. Often what the person at that edge requires is a safe place to be able to take one step in the scale of well-being. None of us are able to employ a crisis unit to go see that person on the edge and evaluate her or him. We are not caregivers on internet. At best we can be caring and try to evoke a state that might allow that person to move slightly away from the edge while still having the abyss in sight and well within her reach.

Yes, caregivers sometimes do identify too closely with their patients. Yes, those that do very often burn out. But, self-identifying can also be displayed by anger and frustration with a person that I cannot win over to peace and well-being through the agency of my own written experience. Through the tough love approach.

I hope Jessica talks some more with us. I would like to hear what she feels about the viability of the questions she has posed us. I hope she is able to listen to and talk with herself.

In areas of the soul (psyche) all of the work is done within the person herself. The rest of us needn't be overly concerned with what a difference to Jessica we are going to make. She WILL make the difference.

Radical responsibility needn't be angry and aggressive. Most often I find it to be quiet and unassuming, having a recognition of the difference between possibility and impossibility. Jessica has not found that yet. She is viewing possibility as much more limited than it is; and, imo, is allowing her fears and her view of what she thinks her circumstances are to cloud her ability to reach toward her next possibility.

It's a long road, Jess. It's a long road for us all.

Nichole

   

QuoteI feel as if they were statements, not questions. More like the 'hit and run' I mentioned earlier... say something to get some needed attention, then control it by not really communicating with the people who are being affected by it.

You think that you know me Regina? 
You think that you can psychoanalyze me?

After this turned into a buddhism, follow the path, give up all of your desires thread and after... what I consider... a pretty blatent verbal attack on my friend Kate for expressing her ideas and opinions.  I decided to let this drop. I mean, what good is it to discuss yourself when other people are getting attacked for that very same thing.

QuoteI would encourage her to talk, in detail, about one smallish piece of her life or transition that isn't working for her. Much more connecting that someone saying "life is bad" "transition is bad."

Fine.  The root issue is fear, exactly like the title of this thread.

I'm terrified of looking like a man in a dress. Even some of the ones who claim to pass 100% of the time look exactly like that. I would rather die.

I am waiting on more advanced biological / technological solutions.  That sounds silly to most of you I am sure, but that hope is what keeps me going.  Hopefully, it will come before my ability to cope internally with this wears out.

Do I want to die? No.

But, in my mind, I would rather do that than look like a man in a dress, or live the rest of my life believing that I will never find anyone to love who loves me.  I also don't believe that through any of the surgical techniques available today that I would ever pass.  Nor will I delude myself into believing that it doesn't really matter if I pass or that if I don't pass, it's other people's problem.

Additionally, I am terrified that they will find that this is a mental issue, not a physical one.  I know this shouldn't matter, I had this discussion with my therapist, but it does.  If this is a mental issue then I am crazy.

The questions I asked were, I thought, pretty honest.

I'm sorry that you believe that they weren't and I was just making statements to cry for attention.

Quote from: Jessica on August 20, 2007, 10:56:40 AM
I'm terrified of looking like a man in a dress.

Me too! But keep in mind it's not always a black-or-white thing. If someone doesn't pass, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone sees them as a "man in a dress." There's no way I pass right now beyond a glance or two, but people don't seem to care. I may get a curious look or two, but my nightmare of everyone laughing and pointing just never materialized. People who read me seem to be "pleasantly amused" somehow. They smile at me. They don't laugh.

I won't lie to you: it IS awkward, and IS stressful out there not passing 100% right now. But it's also not the hostile, demeaning environment I expected either. So far, the awkwardness and embarassment has been *entirely* my own.

Or put it this way: if I could magically erase ALL my insecurities and worries about "what are they thinking?"... then it'd be perfect. No one (aside from people who knew me as a male) treats me as anything other than a female, whether they read me or not. And people who read me don't CARE. So far, the "problems" have only been the ones I bring with me.

QuoteI am waiting on more advanced biological / technological solutions.

You don't think that FFS could make you passable? I've seen to many unbelievable before/after pictures... it's pretty darn amazing.

Still though, if I could reach back and talk to my pre-trans self, I'd tell her passing isn't going to be her main concern. It may SEEM that way now, but... it's much more about resolving the emotional damage wrought by growing up with GID.

QuoteNor will I delude myself into believing that it doesn't really matter if I pass or that if I don't pass, it's other people's problem.

Well again, in my experience, it's not entirely delusional. It's bloody *awkward* at times for me, but not humiliating. You get used to things which right now seem impossible. A few years ago, the thoughts of telling ANYONE I had GID was insane... I couldn't do it. But now... god, it's almost an emotional release to tell someone now. It's almost fun, lol. And the idea of anyone seeing me wearing so much as a bracelet? OMG... couldn't do it. But, well... lol, I'm a bit past bracelets now, lol.

QuoteAdditionally, I am terrified that they will find that this is a mental issue, not a physical one.

Yea, I thought that too. Two years ago, I said ENOUGH! I WILL FIGURE THIS OUT ONCE AND FOR ALL! And I poured through everything I could find... every article, journal, medical report... and I started therapy with the "hope" of realizing, once and for all, I was just nuts.

And darn it... all I did was prove to myself that I had to do this. Crazy or not, I still had to do it. If, on my deathbed at 105, I suddenly realize this whole GID thing was an insanity, and my transition a total delusion... well, I die content knowing that. It was a worthy gamble. But if I find myself on that deathbed, having NOT transitioned, and wondering if only.. if only... that's just too terrible to even consider.

I don't mean to seem like I'm pushing you one way or the other, just sayin' I can relate to your fears, and this is how I've dealt with them.

The thing is, we can get caught up in trying to avoid what we fear... or we can address the fears themselves, directly. You can chase being 100% passable and 100% sane to satisfy those fears (though there will alway be more)... or you can try to work THROUGH those fears and move beyond them.

Transition needs and creates a CONTEXT SHIFT like nothing else in our lives. The YOU you are now... the one with all these very valid fears... can CHANGE. And that new person may not have the same fears at all.

But taking that chance... rolling those dice... yea, I know. I KNOW...

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on August 20, 2007, 12:31:40 PM

[I don't mean to seem like I'm pushing you one way or the other, just sayin' I can relate to your fears, and this is how I've dealt with them.

The thing is, we can get caught up in trying to avoid what we fear... or we can address the fears themselves, directly. You can chase being 100% passable and 100% sane to satisfy those fears (though there will alway be more)... or you can try to work THROUGH those fears and move beyond them.

Transition needs and creates a CONTEXT SHIFT like nothing else in our lives. The YOU you are now... the one with all these very valid fears... can CHANGE. And that new person may not have the same fears at all.

But taking that chance... rolling those dice... yea, I know. I KNOW...

~Kate~

Dear, dear Kate...

Thanks for bringing back the "I" into that thread and moving it away from sweeping general statements. Thanks too for sharing so candidly your own experience and how YOU dealt with these fears. It is a breath of fresh air, rooted into a reality we can all relate to one way or an other. I, and I am sure other, can hear better what you have to say without feeling threatened, attacked or misunderstood.

If what I said did sound like "though love" born of frustration I am sorry about it, it was never meant that way, it was just an analogy that I find very helpfull for myself when I am at risk of falling back into the powerlessness of the victim syndrome. I too have battled with depression and I still battle with it, but I have learned that:

- I am not mad fot and alone to feel that way
- It is only a transitory frame of mind
- Ignoring it won't make it go away, aknowledging it and allowing myself to feel and share the feeling helps to lifts the weight of it.
- I can choose to let it control and paralyse me or contradict it by paying attention to the positive in my life.
- The more I practice pulling myself out of it the easier it gets.
- I might never be completly free  of it, but by now we are more like old sparing partners with a hefty respect for each other and a well rehearsed routine.

Anyway these are only MY TRUTHS based on MY OWN EXPERIENCE, They work for me but they might not be universal and I am allways ready to hear from others.

Hope, Love, Light & Respect

Maebh

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

I went ahead and transitioned assuming any and all of those would be true.

YES! to all of the above. First and formost, if you truly know you are a women in the wrong body. Then everything else will take a back seat, till you can bring your body and mind as one. Stealth, love, etc. Would never complete me, and make me whole, without SRS.

Posted on: August 25, 2007, 01:04:29 PM

---

Except suicide...I'm sorry I forgot about that one. I don't think anyone should feel such despair that they would entertain the idea of suicide. Life is a gift no matter what. Find the strength and the will to be who you are. I believe there is a path or a reason for all of us. We were put here for a reason, I don't believe it should be suffering. There is a rainbow for all of us.

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 20, 2007, 06:33:41 PM

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

I went ahead and transitioned assuming any and all of those would be true.

Hear! Hear! That's the spirit Lisbeth!  :eusa_clap: 
I knew I always liked and respected you very much. I know why now. You're a gem and an inspiration.  :icon_bunch:

Love, Light and Respect

Maebh

When I began HRT, it wasn't a choice, I had the luck to have found a great therapist, I was pretty rough at first, I never knew if I would even come close to passing. Now less than four years later, even with big hands, chest and shoulders, I pass 100% (based on how those on this forum define it) Even those who I have disclosed to treat me 100% as a woman and seem to admire me even more.

It really is astounding to me that it turned out this well. And outwardly, it is only going to get better, I notice that my hair is getting thicker just a month after cutting off the Testosterone completely. This all may sound egotistical but I am just stating facts, if I can do it anyone can.

Life is far better than I ever thought it would be. Yesterday, I had brunch with a bunch of people I met on a political forum. I found myself having to make a lot of stuff up about my past as I decided to stay stealth. What a pain. Of course, I won't be seeing these people in person for awhile again...but now I have to remember what I told them. I am really re-evaluating the wisdom of being stealth with some people and not with others. Maybe others can pull this off, personally, I wonder if it's worth it as people don't think more or less of you either way.

BTW I won't be responding directly to anything anyone says on these threads, if you wish to have a discussion directly PM me or you can even telephone me (that goes for everyone on this forum)

Quote from: Katie on July 26, 2007, 10:52:03 AM
IMHO, the only real way to put these questions to rest is to transition and find out.

Yea, I know. Bit of a tragic catch-22 there, huh? But seriously, you can ponder and wonder and fear until you're 120, but you'll never KNOW until you try.

But how do you find the courage to move forward in spite of the doubts? I guess it's different for everyone. In my case, it was finally realizing that I was running out of time, and unless I DID something about all this, I would never, ever live a single day as a female. For 42 years I put it off thinking, "someday, somehow..." and hitting middle-age made me realize I was being really stupid and wasting my life away in daydreams and wishing.

I also realized that no matter how hard we tried, my marriage was never going to be what we tried to FORCE it into being. No amount of effort or workarounds would make me a guy, either to myself OR my wife. We were just both exhausted and miserable of trying to find SOME way to make it all work as a normal, heterosexual couple.

So it was time to grow up, face facts, and try to FIX things as best I could. Yes, that meant creating new damage and hurt in the short term, but that's BETTER to me than spending another 30 years making myself and my wife miserable. It was time to accept WHAT IS and drop the delusion of WHAT WE WANT IT TO BE.

~Kate~

This is right on the mark, Katie.  This is exactly where I'm at now.  You've obviously "been there and done that," and, you're right ... It is not worth it!  I'm now 53, in the situation you describe, and am darned tired of it.  It's Now or Never Time for me ... at this age. 

I'm nearly certain that I'm going to go for it.  Only finances really stand in the way.  Thanks for your encouragement by means of your post which I've quoted here. 

Hugs!