Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello I'm a trans gay man although my transition has thus far gone very smoothly I'm having a very interesting situation where I feel more acceptance from the trans community than the LGB community is this normal? Have other people experienced this? I've always been very active in the LGBT community especially the LGB part so I don't quite understand it. ???
Kyle

There is a bit of a rift between the LGB segment and the T segment. It is not unusual. I think we would be better off standing together but there are times when it feels the T gets the shaft when it comes to legal/political progression.

Quote from: LordKAT on June 09, 2014, 12:50:55 PM
There is a bit of a rift between the LGB segment and the T segment. It is not unusual. I think we would be better off standing together but there are times when it feels the T gets the shaft when it comes to legal/political progression.

Most definately this. I feel almost like we are used as a numbers thing but when the LGB get what they fight for, we seem to be forgotten. Maybe not but just how I feel sometimes. Even in the LGBT community I think even they find it hard to accept that we aren't or feel comfortable as the gender we were born as. But then again I guess it is just as confusing on their part as it is on ours not understandeing how a person can be comfortable as their birth gender. But at least we have each other.

I think as a marginalized people, it is highly important that we stand together. However, I'm glad that T specific places such as here exist because being LGB does not mean being T friendly, sad enough.

Quote from: PoeticHeart on June 09, 2014, 01:16:34 PM
I think as a marginalized people, it is highly important that we stand together. However, I'm glad that T specific places such as here exist because being LGB does not mean being T friendly, sad enough.

This is not a T specific site, it is all inclusive.

Quote from: LordKAT on June 09, 2014, 01:21:29 PM
This is not a T specific site, it is all inclusive.

My apologies.

I actually have avoided a lot of LGBT places around my city for the whole push away effect. I haven't had the best of experiences even when I presented as Bisexual to the community. Got a lot of water under the bridge comments and pretty much told I needed to pick a side and stay there...

I personally get that feeling of being the outsider and it actually frustrates me a lot seeing as the big main prerogative for LGBT is equality and acceptance but even in the community there doesn't seem to be that ideal. I once caught the back handed comments from a few men I once knew saying that the BT was forced on the LG and they've just been told to deal with it even though they are nothing like the BT. It's appalling how close minded individuals can be even where they stand in stance to the rest of the world.

I think the reason why the T feels like it 'gets the shaft' in political progression is because LGB has to do with sexuality, and T has to do with gender identity. While the problems between sexuality and gender identity can sometimes cross over, not everything that helps the LGB will also help the T, and vice versa. There are just so many more LGB people than T people, so their voices will of course be louder and more influential, so naturally, their problems get fixed faster.

Sadly, the "T" is still mostly treated as the red headed stepchild of the LGBT movement.  Some simply don't want us because we are another albatross around their necks that impede and complicate the progress of the LG and B, which of course applies to many T people as well. 

A few months back I really let an older gay guy have it.  Because he could finally marry his partner of 30+ years, he told me that as far as he was concerned, the fight was over and won.   I had to disagree and tell him that as a transwoman, I necessarily have his back no matter what, and the fact that he didn't have mine was a travesty, even if he, as he put it so coldly, "didn't have a dog in that fight." 

Thnx for all the comments! And hex ya I used to present as a bisexual but it was very off putting as well, i have lots of LGBT friends and I've always been able to converse more with the BT side than the LG. I think that  the LG side feels like they have to conform more at least from the ones I've known.  The BT side seems a lot more aware of gender and sexuality issues I feel like whenever I bring up BT stuff with my LG friends they aren't as aware of their own gender and sexuality oppression.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on June 10, 2014, 03:52:03 PM
I think the reason why the T feels like it 'gets the shaft' in political progression is because LGB has to do with sexuality, and T has to do with gender identity. While the problems between sexuality and gender identity can sometimes cross over, not everything that helps the LGB will also help the T, and vice versa. There are just so many more LGB people than T people, so their voices will of course be louder and more influential, so naturally, their problems get fixed faster.

You may be on to something here with the fundamental difference.  I had always assumed that the reason for the apparent marginalization had to do with the perception (I'm not making statements on reality, but that's one perception I've run across) that those of us who are T often want to complete transition and then go "stealth" trying to fit in and get lost in all the cisgender people, rather than continuing to make a statement.  That, and as you point out we're just not that common. 

I've never understood why we're lumped in with the LGB part in the first place... I can't see what gender identity has to do with sexual/romantic orientation, and to be honest, I think I get more flack from cis LGB people than cis straight people. It doesn't feel like the LGB community has my back at all. And this is in spite of me being gay in addition to being trans. *sigh*

Oh well... I guess maybe it helps us out politically to be grouped together. Although I'm skeptical of even that. It almost seems like it may be hurting us more than helping, by causing even more confusion over the difference between identity and sexuality.

I live in the Southern US, and I have a lot to say on this. However I'm on my phone, so bear with me!

Inside of supposed LGBT spaces, I've experienced a great deal of transphobia, mostly from gay men. They seem to think I'm a self-hating homophobic gay man even though I'm in a long term relationship with a woman. They continually call me "->-bleeped-<-" "->-bleeped-<-" and "that confused dude who thinks he's a woman". I asked, politely for awhile, to not have those terms used and for the blatant misgendering to stop. No such luck there, but they sure expect me to show up at the state house for marriage equality protests... to hell with 'em.

Online my experience has been almost as bad. I don't like LGBT groups, they really mean LG...b. T isn't even an afterthought most if the time.

While I think there is immense value in alliance, as we have historically had similar experiences (facing familial loss for coming out, job loss, discrimination, etc) the attitudes have changed in the past 2 decades to where LGBs have a majority of mainstream support. Homophobia sees the same level of disapproval as racism did in the 80s, so in another 5-10 years they'll just be a regular part of society. Activism for them is a lot different than it is for us... while we still largely face discrimination in the workplace, they only have minimal problems with the issue. Violence against them is seen as an actual crime - violence against us is still riddled with transpanic defenses which on the whole are still successful. We cannot expect their help, though I regularly try to take them to task for their hypocrisy.

I feel a lot of "LGBT" events/spaces are more like LGGGGGGGGGGG, but it's getting better from when I was younger and ID'd as bisexual and later genderqueer (and now a man).

I've been harassed by men in these clubs, touched by gay men without my consent, I've had fatphobic comments too. I know people who have experienced racism in clubs too (but can't speak for them).

Quote from: Jill F on June 10, 2014, 04:37:19 PM
Sadly, the "T" is still mostly treated as the red headed stepchild of the LGBT movement.  Some simply don't want us because we are another albatross around their necks that impede and complicate the progress of the LG and B, which of course applies to many T people as well. 

A few months back I really let an older gay guy have it.  Because he could finally marry his partner of 30+ years, he told me that as far as he was concerned, the fight was over and won.   I had to disagree and tell him that as a transwoman, I necessarily have his back no matter what, and the fact that he didn't have mine was a travesty, even if he, as he put it so coldly, "didn't have a dog in that fight."

"Not having a dog in the fight."  I see this too much when it comes to basic human rights, and I don't understand it.  I'll admit that I'm beginning to realize that some of the fights I've taken up in my life are more motivated by an identity I'm only now beginning to understand, but even when I didn't understand my transgender feelings or how that affected my sexual orientation, I still believed in human rights.  It'd hurt me to know that a religion I was raised in, and those in it who preached of love and forgiveness the loudest were almost always the first to deny that love to gays, women, and trans folk.  So much so, I'd eventually leave that religion altogether in no small part because I couldn't see these people as humane, loving or compassionate in any real way.  "Oh, God loves you no matter what... except if you love someone you're not supposed to, or have female parts and act 'out of your station', or if you're a boy who think he's a girl because God doesn't make mistakes."  At least the Westboro types are honest about their hate.  A lot of religious types try to have it both ways, that God loves us but doesn't love who and what we are.  Like... make up your mind. 

Maybe I only did all of this because I was, in fact, a gay trangendered woman who feels she has a right to all the same rights as any other person to love, to be seen, heard, and validated the way anyone else expects to in life.  But even when I didn't know that, I still cared about it  I still felt I had a dog in the fight, because these were fellow human beings who suffer in ways I may never truly understand.  And what right do I have as an alleged cis-gender straight male, the person I tried to tell myself I was for decades, to ignore that injustice?  What right do I have to call myself human when I deny my own kind the same rights I was lucky to have because I was able to convince the right people that I fit neatly into one of their boxes?  Never mind that I actually don't. 

Sorry for the ongoing ramble.  I just hate it when people have that "it doesn't involve me" crap when it comes to basic human rights.  If it doesn't involve you, what species are you?  Because if you're human, it involves you.

This Monday is our national holiday celebration of Martin Luther King in the USA.  It seems fitting to then to consider his message that basically none of us are really free while others remain in chains; "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." MLK

It amazes me that people who have suffered the crimes and indignities of discrimination and prejudice can still turn around and discriminate hurtfully within their own community.  How many minority people seek out support and solidarity within a group only to find they are not gay, black or trans enough?

It is changing for us.  I am old and have been out in the LGBTQ world since the early 70's and before we even had all those neat categories.  I am also queer or Bi and we, along with the Ts, have been thrown under the bus way too often.  People want to keep it simple and to rank each other in terms of status and value.  Way too simple and seductively easy to live in an us and them world.  Trans people have always been part of the civil rights and justice movement.  We were there at Stonewall and we deal with the same oppressors who come from places of privilege, prejudice and power.  I felt it from people who talked about Bi people as wannabes, incapable of commitment who sleep with and steal our partners.  I have felt it from other trans people here and IRL who are so ready to let me know how wrong I look or act.

It is getting better and part of that is the increasing numbers of us who are willing to be out and openly educate the masses simply by living our truth in public.  This implies no mean judgment or disrespect for those who need or choose to be stealth or blend in.  We work with the tools and strengths we have today and can aspire to grow in confidence and influence.  We make a difference every day in where we spend our time and other treasures.  Janet Mock was on MSNBC this morning and she was there as a guest discussing the challenges of race relations in this country.  We and some better informed people may also know her courageous story of living as a transwoman.  Her profile as a woman of color and trans identified celebrity are significant to me partly because she is so totally passable and capable of stealth while she did, in fact, make a conscious decision to be open about herself.  We can make that descion too and help break down the foolish stigmas that find us tearing each other apart.  It can't just be celebrities and heroes making change happen.  Our collective and united efforts can challenge the dominant paradigms and reveal the truth that this is a multicultural world where we are all entitled and deserving of basic civil rights.  We make a difference every day by just being out.

Thnx for all the posts, before I started my transition I identified mainly as a straight woman with a brief period identifying as bisexual before I figured out I was transgender and later gay, so a lot of the LGBT politics go right over my head sometimes,  ???, but I'm figuring it out!   :)
Kyle

Through my LGBT group and the contacts it's made for me I see some great support from LGB for those of us who are T.
Unfortunately it's human nature to remember the bad things, whilst shopping a few weeks ago I had some transphobic abuse from a group of schoolgirls, for the next week if I saw a group of schoolgirls I'd have to fight the urge to walk the other way. I have to tell myself again and again that I've walked past countless groups of schoolgirls with no abuse, no pointing and no laughing.

Now apply that to LGB, the vast majority accept and support us but if one or two don't it's all too easy to think the majority feel that way, I for one keep in mind that the vocal few are not speaking for the majority

I think most LGB support the struggle but that they really do want to differentiate themselves from us.

I also think that way.

I think it is dangerous to look for division, but I've seen it.

BTW SCOTUS is hearing the marriage case today (right now, in fact). I fully support them on that.

Ya I do too :) It'll be interesting to see what the decision is!

My own opinion, just from some observations, as to why the distancing is somewhat because our current movement for rights is being partially backed by 'intersectional feminists/anarchists' and because said movement seems to be more about getting kids diagnosed with 'gender dysphoria' or getting our surgeries to be covered by insurance rather than the angle LGB went for, which was a little more along the lines that 'what we do in our bedrooms shouldn't be anyone else's business'.

This is probably going to sound like a very unpopular opinion because I'm a bit of a libertarian in my philosophy I've found (left-leaning, but nonetheless libertarian) and I'm a transman, but I imagine that we'd get better results fighting for our rights if we simply wanted to be legally recognized as who are and not discriminated for or against in work, yet willing to work for and pay for physical changes as we see fit; as opposed to our current situation where intersectional feminists are trying to educate young children to not be offensive to these people who could explode into suicidal tendencies if they're not privileged to be sick enough to be allowed to get bottom surgery. And before you say that last sentence sounds cold, let me ask what sounds more encouraging of a way to grow up.

Would you feel more confident about life if you couldn't transition until you were an adult, but when you reached, say, the legal age to vote, you could legally change your name and gender, and while hormones and surgery required money out of your pocket, you wouldn't have the risk of being fired from your job and you wouldn't earn the ire of your peers because being transgender was part of why you're still kept around, and while you had to accept that not everyone will want to sleep with you, you could still be yourself and have complete autonomy? Or being slapped with a diagnosis for the rest of your life, getting your hormones and surgery covered by insurance, acquiring a job just because of a quota enforced by people with a half-hearted interest in your well-being, and being secretly hated by people because you have some connection to a group of people who will ruin your lives just because they don't use the right language around you?

Mod Edit- no profanity please.

Edit: Apologies for profanity.

There is a lot of confusion about the T from the LGB. 

First is What does the T stand for to you?  Does it mean ->-bleeped-<-?  or Transexual?

One is a fetish that is satisfied by dressing in female attire.  The other is someone dressing to be their authentic self.

Both are related to identity, but not in the same way. 

I think many are often left aghast when listening so many gay men tell us how we fee. 

Quote from: Neshkav on August 11, 2015, 03:04:01 PM
My own opinion, just from some observations, as to why the distancing is somewhat because our current movement for rights is being partially backed by 'intersectional feminists/anarchists' and because said movement seems to be more about getting kids diagnosed with 'gender dysphoria' or getting our surgeries to be covered by insurance rather than the angle LGB went for, which was a little more along the lines that 'what we do in our bedrooms shouldn't be anyone else's business'.

This is probably going to sound like a very unpopular opinion because I'm a bit of a libertarian in my philosophy I've found (left-leaning, but nonetheless libertarian) and I'm a transman, but I imagine that we'd get better results fighting for our rights if we simply wanted to be legally recognized as who are and not discriminated for or against in work, yet willing to work for and pay for physical changes as we see fit; as opposed to our current situation where intersectional feminists are trying to educate young children to not be offensive to these people who could explode into suicidal tendencies if they're not privileged to be sick enough to be allowed to get bottom surgery. And before you say that last sentence sounds cold, let me ask what sounds more encouraging of a way to grow up.

Would you feel more confident about life if you couldn't transition until you were an adult, but when you reached, say, the legal age to vote, you could legally change your name and gender, and while hormones and surgery required money out of your pocket, you wouldn't have the risk of being fired from your job and you wouldn't earn the ire of your peers because being transgender was part of why you're still kept around, and while you had to accept that not everyone will want to sleep with you, you could still be yourself and have complete autonomy? Or being slapped with a diagnosis for the rest of your life, getting your hormones and surgery covered by insurance, acquiring a job just because of a quota enforced by people with a half-hearted interest in your well-being, and being secretly hated by people because you have some connection to a group of people who will ruin your lives just because they don't use the right language around you?

Mod Edit- no profanity please.

Edit: Apologies for profanity.

You obviously aren't a intersectional feminist due to the fact that you are spreading huge misinformation on intersectional feminism. first off Intersectional feminist don't even think trans people should be diagnosed with any mental disorder and they try to get bills passed that say we don't need surgery to get our id's changed. They are also strongly against gender policing so that's fighting against the idea that surgery is necessary for a trans person to be the person that they want to be.

The ones I work with are trying to build a United queer community in Lansing. Because as every one on this post agrees there is a huge gap between lgb and t. The only queer people that are interested in trans rights that aren't trans are the intersectional feminist so quit blaming our biggest allies for causing a rift between the lgb and the t. That was done by cis people when they decided the queer movement was gonna focus on same-sex marriage and all the time that non discrimination laws for sexual orientation were pushed for without mention of gender identity. 

We police the language because we are trying to teach people to be respectful and to have empathy of other people's lives regardless of how well you can relate to what they say.

I am bothered by you saying intersectional feminist are to blame for us being apparent from the rest of the queer community because second wave feminist( non-intersectional feminist) and early gay rights advocates are literally the reason that trans people got left behind in the first place. Despite the fact that trans people were very much a part of the initial gay rights movement.

Quote from: Oliviah on August 21, 2015, 12:56:51 PM
There is a lot of confusion about the T from the LGB. 

First is What does the T stand for to you?  Does it mean ->-bleeped-<-?  or Transexual?

One is a fetish that is satisfied by dressing in female attire.  The other is someone dressing to be their authentic self.

Both are related to identity, but not in the same way. 

I think many are often left aghast when listening so many gay men tell us how we fee.

Both of those terms are outdated. Using this kinda language promotes the idea that some people's gender is more valid then others which is total b.s. all genders are valid so we use the inclusive terms transgender or trans. Most people in the lgb community are aware of this but now.


The t stands for neither it stands for the umbrella term transgender.

Quote from: amber roskamp on August 21, 2015, 02:04:09 PM
Both of those terms are outdated. Using this kinda language promotes the idea that some people's gender is more valid then others which is total b.s. all genders are valid so we use the inclusive terms transgender or trans. Most people in the lgb community are aware of this but now.


The t stands for neither it stands for the umbrella term transgender.

The terms are not outdated they are out of fashion.  The terms are still the only applicable ones that describe what they describe. 

The fact is that cross dresser.  The new preferred term for ->-bleeped-<- is someone who generally identifies as strait and male.

Transsexual mtf is not someone who identifies as male. 

That is the problem.


http://www.lgbt.ucla.edu/documents/LGBTTerminology.pdf

http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender

This is Susan's Place, and these are the terms and definitions we use here:

Quote from: Susan on January 26, 2009, 10:04:38 PM

Community Definitions:

Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Androgyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Drag kings: performers, usually gay women or transgendered men - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the male gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag kings often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Drag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Intersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Significant other: for the purpose of this site, someone close to a person who is transgender. This may be a mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, family member, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Other terms:

Post-Ops: Transsexuals who have had surgical procedures to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex. For MTF transsexuals this is generally considered to be after Genital surgery (GRS, orchiectomy, and/or penectomy), for FTM transsexuals it is generally considered to be after top surgery.

Pre-ops: Transsexuals who desire to to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex, but have not yet had the surgical procedures for whatever reason.

This is not intended to be a glossary of all tg related terms. This just defines the make-up of the community on this site.

Proper Pronouns

Always use proper gender terms and pronouns based on the person's expressed self identity. Intentionally misgendering someone will result in a ban no matter what provocation you think you experienced.

For Male to Female Transsexuals: Male to Female transsexuals are women, and should be addressed in the feminine,  Brava instead of Bravo. recommended pronouns include She, Her, and Hers.

For Female to Male Transsexuals: Female to Male transsexuals are men, and should be addressed in the masculine Bravo instead of Brava. Recommended pronouns include He, Him, and His.

Gender Neutral: Whenever possible avoid the use feminine or masculine forms. Recommended pronouns include Them, They, and Their.

Note: ->-bleeped-<- and ->-bleeped-<- are considered extremely pejorative and should not be used on this site. Terms like Ladyboy should be limited to use in their specific cultural reference.

Crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s are not the same, there are distinct differences but both groups are transgender.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 21, 2015, 02:21:37 PM
This is Susan's Place, and these are the terms and definitions we use here:
 

Crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s are not the same, there are distinct differences but both groups are transgender.

Hugs, Devlyn

The jargon is confusing. 

I think it doesn't serve us well to have blurred the distinction between dysphoria and sexually motivated cross dressing.

It leads to debates about such topics as true trans, which going by this set of terms is really a debate about motivation.


I say this because when our right to exist is on the line I know that people understand a medical condition and don't mind sharing a bathroom with a cancer patient.

If you phrase it as a sexual fetish that support turns to yuck.  No people don't want to share the bathroom with someone who is engaging in a sexual fetish.   

Quote from: Oliviah on August 21, 2015, 02:26:17 PM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 21, 2015, 02:21:37 PM
This is Susan's Place, and these are the terms and definitions we use here:
 

Crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s are not the same, there are distinct differences but both groups are transgender.

Hugs, Devlyn

The jargon is confusing. 

I think it doesn't serve us well to have blurred the distinction between dysphoria and sexually motivated cross dressing.

It leads to debates about such topics as true trans, which going by this set of terms is really a debate about motivation. 

Your comments are drifting towards TOS #10. Crossdressers, ->-bleeped-<-s, Drag Queens are all vibrant parts of our community. We welcome them all with open arms here.  :)

10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:◾Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term. The same restriction applies to advocating the removal of the T from GLBT.
◾Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others
◾Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive no matter the provocation.

Please respect all of our members and guests.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 21, 2015, 02:34:22 PM
The jargon is confusing. 

I think it doesn't serve us well to have blurred the distinction between dysphoria and sexually motivated cross dressing.

It leads to debates about such topics as true trans, which going by this set of terms is really a debate about motivation. 


Your comments are drifting towards TOS #10. Crossdressers, ->-bleeped-<-s, Drag Queens are all vibrant parts of our community. We welcome them all with open arms here.  :)

10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:◾Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term. The same restriction applies to advocating the removal of the T from GLBT.
◾Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others
◾Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive no matter the provocation.

Please respect all of our members and guests.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I am not bashing at all.  I point out our real life struggle with identity and legitimacy. 

Several very separate things are included together in one Letter.  That letter is T.  I have no honest problem with that, but it isn't bashing when we say that Hey people have become confused. 

Much of the reason for the rash of bathroom bills is that people have confused terms.  They oppose the idea of someone who identifies as a male in the female bathroom for purposes of sexual pleasure  where as they don't oppose someone who is living their life authentically using the bathroom with them. 

That is the issue. 

Tell me about one person you know who uses the female restroom for sexual pleasure.

As you see in my avatar, I am a crossdresser. I don't dress for sexual reasons. I use female restrooms.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 21, 2015, 02:46:50 PM
Tell me about one person you know who uses the female restroom for sexual pleasure.

As you see in my avatar, I am a crossdresser. I don't dress for sexual reasons. I use female restrooms.

Under your set of definitions a cross dresser doesn't have sexual pleasure as a motivation a ->-bleeped-<- does.  So I am addressing that group.  However in the broader sense most these days use cross dresser to mean ->-bleeped-<-.  ->-bleeped-<- has a the motivation of sexual pleasure via dressing.

This thread is locked. This discussion is going nowhere except to argue.