Susan's Place Transgender Resources

What is a person supposed to do if they realize they are transphobic?

I have been thinking abt it and... well i definitely have internalized transphobia but I think I have transphobia in general too, and I think this is ultimately the reason I can't see myself not detransitioning in the future. I feel like it is eventually gonna end up as pretty much detransition or die. I don't want to be trans and don't want to be perceived as trans at all. It causes me so much grief. It is pretty nearly unrelenting.

I'm not trying to be awful by posting this here. I'm trying to learn and grow. But.. even if i want to stop being transphobic I don't feel like I can. Obviously i have tried, I have stuck around here for like 3? 4 years now? And seen a lot of people's transitions and talked to a lot of people about how they feel. I've even come out to a few people IRL about myself being trans when i used to swear I would never tell anyone. But, somehow I still feel all this subconscious negativity towards transition and being trans, and some part of me just cannot accept it.

Help? I don't want to be like this. What can i do? :(

It's so bad i can't even talk to therapists about it. I don't even want to be associated with trans things to someone i pay to not judge me... It got to the point that i was thinking of making some TERF friends who could hate on me just to have an outlet for how I feel. I mean, I know that transphobia is stupid and unacceptable but that doesn't make it go away. I'm feeling stuck in my own closed mind...

Hatred of any kind starts from inside, but from your post it sounds like you're already well aware of that. Transitioning is about loving yourself enough to be who you are. If you choose not to transition, don't let it be because loving yourself is too difficult. The fact that you've considered specifically seeking out the company of people who hate you strongly suggests that's the reason. In my experience, the only people who hate others for being themselves are projecting self-hate.

There's no easy way to change, but it's definitely possible if you get to the root of why you have such negative feelings towards yourself. I'm not just talking about transition-related feelings, either. If you can't discuss those things with your therapist, I'd at least be honest with her about the way you feel about yourself if you haven't already. If you decide not to transition, do it because you love yourself. If you decide to transition, do it because you love yourself. Eradicating your transphobia from the outside in is pointless, but if you start from inside where the root of the problem is, hating other transgender people is going to become a non-issue.

I wish you the best. Being open to change is a step in the right direction.

Cis centric society makes being trans out to be something beyond abnormal so it's no wonder trans people find themselves in such a conflicted place.

After I detransitioned in 1991 (for a whole range of reasons, one of which being I felt like a freak) I pretty much decided that "being trans was a mental illness that I had overcome"... :( yeah, pretty appalling. I never said that out aloud about other trans people although I know I thought it. Whenever I spoke about my trans history, which was very rarely, I framed it that I had only done it because I'd lost my marbles for two years and that I was "OK" now. Internalised transphobia or what??

Following my gender melt down in February last year I knew I wanted to transition to female, knew that I was female and knew that I had to do this and yet I was fearful of and loathing the idea of doing so. I was speaking to my gender counsellor and he simply challenged me on my inner transphobia. I couldn't deny it. I knew that anyone who was openly transphobic would disgust me, so why should be internalised position and posturing be any different, it deserved to be roundly condemned and evicted from my psyche, spat out like the vile toxin it was. And in that moment I felt OK about myself and about transitioning and other trans people. Yeah, that simple. Why? How? Because I wanted to. I refused to hate on myself for who I was, screw what cis centred society thinks.

Sad panda, I understand how you feel.

Everyone wants to be accepted and loved.
If you are from a social background where being trans is being part of a freak show, a child of the devil, insane, etc, then it is perfectly possible to be trans yet trans phobic.  It takes great conviction to leave a social group one has been part of for many many years.

I said to myself over 10 years ago, yes you are trans, but you're not trans enough to need to transition, go on HRT, and have surgery.  Most certainly, even now, I would admit that, but I have to recognise the fact that part of my decision at the time was due to my own internal trans phobia.  The one time I went to a meetup, I felt uncomfortable.

In the end, I could not deny myself completely and am on HRT for my sanity.  I've come to make peace with who and what I am, and have realised there is no pleasing some people and their prejudices.

Quote from: Klaus on June 17, 2014, 02:59:18 AM
Hatred of any kind starts from inside, but from your post it sounds like you're already well aware of that. Transitioning is about loving yourself enough to be who you are. If you choose not to transition, don't let it be because loving yourself is too difficult. The fact that you've considered specifically seeking out the company of people who hate you strongly suggests that's the reason. In my experience, the only people who hate others for being themselves are projecting self-hate.

There's no easy way to change, but it's definitely possible if you get to the root of why you have such negative feelings towards yourself. I'm not just talking about transition-related feelings, either. If you can't discuss those things with your therapist, I'd at least be honest with her about the way you feel about yourself if you haven't already. If you decide not to transition, do it because you love yourself. If you decide to transition, do it because you love yourself. Eradicating your transphobia from the outside in is pointless, but if you start from inside where the root of the problem is, hating other transgender people is going to become a non-issue.

I wish you the best. Being open to change is a step in the right direction.

Wow Klaus, thank you. That was a really heartfelt reply.

I do think that you're right... it is self-hate. I wasn't bothered by trans-related things until I actually allowed myself to transition and it became a stain on my own being.

I grew up in a family that valued being normal more than anything, and yet more than anyone else i was always out of reach of being normal. I felt and was treated like a criminal for existing because i couldn't just be normal...

So it took a long time to allow myself to transition and ever since I did I have been in constant pain over how being trans makes me feel. And i started nitpicking myself and other trans people and all the ways they're not normal. I have tried to learn to love myself but it hasn't stuck yet. I don't love myself, nothing has helped me do that yet, and i want to believe that someday I will but, I don't know. :c

It's just like, if I'm never gonna love myself anyway at least I could make life easier by hiding in a cis boy presentation right? Idk. Unfortunately who I am is very not normal for a cis boy too.

Quote from: Ms Grace on June 17, 2014, 04:52:22 AM
Cis centric society makes being trans out to be something beyond abnormal so it's no wonder trans people find themselves in such a conflicted place.

After I detransitioned in 1991 (for a whole range of reasons, one of which being I felt like a freak) I pretty much decided that "being trans was a mental illness that I had overcome"... :( yeah, pretty appalling. I never said that out aloud about other trans people although I know I thought it. Whenever I spoke about my trans history, which was very rarely, I framed it that I had only done it because I'd lost my marbles for two years and that I was "OK" now. Internalised transphobia or what??

Following my gender melt down in February last year I knew I wanted to transition to female, knew that I was female and knew that I had to do this and yet I was fearful of and loathing the idea of doing so. I was speaking to my gender counsellor and he simply challenged me on my inner transphobia. I couldn't deny it. I knew that anyone who was openly transphobic would disgust me, so why should be internalised position and posturing be any different, it deserved to be roundly condemned and evicted from my psyche, spat out like the vile toxin it was. And in that moment I felt OK about myself and about transitioning and other trans people. Yeah, that simple. Why? How? Because I wanted to. I refused to hate on myself for who I was, screw what cis centred society thinks.

I can't accept a screw cis society mentality... I mean, I want to be a part of cis society. Were you self-aware about your transphobic feelings before the therapist called you out on them?

Quote from: luna nyan on June 17, 2014, 05:43:54 AM
Sad panda, I understand how you feel.

Everyone wants to be accepted and loved.
If you are from a social background where being trans is being part of a freak show, a child of the devil, insane, etc, then it is perfectly possible to be trans yet trans phobic.  It takes great conviction to leave a social group one has been part of for many many years.

I said to myself over 10 years ago, yes you are trans, but you're not trans enough to need to transition, go on HRT, and have surgery.  Most certainly, even now, I would admit that, but I have to recognise the fact that part of my decision at the time was due to my own internal trans phobia.  The one time I went to a meetup, I felt uncomfortable.

In the end, I could not deny myself completely and am on HRT for my sanity.  I've come to make peace with who and what I am, and have realised there is no pleasing some people and their prejudices.

So just going on HRT made you feel better? That's one thing I never quite got, what's the body dysphoria like? People act like it's hardwired into their brain when most trans people go a long time in life without hating their bodies and only start to when they get attached to being a different sex.

(I mean I get some body dysphoria, but it's out of fear of being rejected by people over how my body is)

QuotePeople act like it's hardwired into their brain when most trans people go a long time in life without hating their bodies and only start to when they get attached to being a different sex.

That might be true for some. But others have this strong sense of body 'wrongness' even before they know what being trans is or that transition is an option. Like, my dysphoria during puberty was much more than just - 'I feel like a boy, so I shouldn't have tits and bleeding'. Much more visceral than that. Something inexplainable.

Some people do develop new dysphoria while transitioning, but I think that has a different cause. Like some guys start to get bottom dysphoria once the rest of them looks male.

Quote from: FA on June 17, 2014, 01:08:10 PM
That might be true for some. But others have this strong sense of body 'wrongness' even before they know what being trans is or that transition is an option. Like, my dysphoria during puberty was much more than just - 'I feel like a boy, so I shouldn't have tits and bleeding'. Much more visceral than that. Something inexplainable.

Some people do develop new dysphoria while transitioning, but I think that has a different cause. Like some guys start to get bottom dysphoria once the rest of them looks male.

Hmmm... yeah, though I wonder, do you think that "I feel like a boy" could have later become an outlet for those feelings too, even if they were a little different than that, or more complex? I mean, a lot of cis people feel wrong about or hate certain body parts as well, and a lot of cis girls are horrified by puberty, you know? Without identifying as a boy or anything.

Sorry I'm not assuming anything though, just some thoughts, plus I know you're not really holding onto any insecurities about this so sorry if I'm being too nosy :D

I'm just trying to figure stuff out... I don't know. :/ I still don't even know why I transitioned anyway, at this point I kinda hate my past self for acting like I have to affirm gender roles and be a girl just to be me, even if the real alternative was pretty unforgiving too.

Quote from: sad panda on June 17, 2014, 02:31:16 PM

Quote from: FA on June 17, 2014, 01:08:10 PM
That might be true for some. But others have this strong sense of body 'wrongness' even before they know what being trans is or that transition is an option. Like, my dysphoria during puberty was much more than just - 'I feel like a boy, so I shouldn't have tits and bleeding'. Much more visceral than that. Something inexplainable.

Some people do develop new dysphoria while transitioning, but I think that has a different cause. Like some guys start to get bottom dysphoria once the rest of them looks male.

Hmmm... yeah, though I wonder, do you think that "I feel like a boy" could have later become an outlet for those feelings too, even if they were a little different than that, or more complex? I mean, a lot of cis people feel wrong about or hate certain body parts as well, and a lot of cis girls are horrified by puberty, you know? Without identifying as a boy or anything.

Sorry I'm not assuming anything though, just some thoughts, plus I know you're not really holding onto any insecurities about this so sorry if I'm being too nosy :D

I'm just trying to figure stuff out... I don't know. :/ I still don't even know why I transitioned anyway, at this point I kinda hate my past self for acting like I have to affirm gender roles and be a girl just to be me, even if the real alternative was pretty unforgiving too.

No, it's okay. I don't think physical gender dysphoria is something one can understand if they haven't had it. I mean, yeah most cis girls hate their bodies or aspects of their bodies. This is different. And I really don't know how I came to be trans - maybe happened in the womb, maybe not. I'm not really attached to any theory. But it's been there as long as I can remember. From at least 4 years old (and earlier, from relative accounts). I didn't really have genital dysphoria, but I had genital confusion at a young age. Puberty is where it got bad.

One of the issues being ftm is the fear or possibility of ingrained misogyny. I mean, we live in a world where being female is the inferior state of being and has been for all of recorded history. Instead of just dismissing that angle, I've tried to explore it. Is the physical dysphoria a symptom of internalized misogyny? All I know is whatever happened to make me trans, happened very early in life for me (and no I wasn't abused or anything). And I have no doubt that I was meant to transition, no matter how it came to be.

I know a lot of people might disagree with that, and I would have early in transition as well. But well, I've come to a point that the why doesn't matter anymore. If they autopsy my brain and discover I was never 'really' trans, that doesn't matter to me (deceased or otherwise lol). I still know I made the right and only choice I could have made.

Quote from: sad panda on June 17, 2014, 12:49:22 PM
I can't accept a screw cis society mentality... I mean, I want to be a part of cis society. Were you self-aware about your transphobic feelings before the therapist called you out on them?

Definitely. I knew I was being a real douche but because I kept it secretly tucked away in my brain that apparently made it "alright". Being challenged on it just forced me to realise I was being duplicitous.

So Sad Panda, do you dislike other trans people? Is that why you want to join cis centric society, so you can jeer at us? If your answer is yes then you do indeed have transphobia, if the answer is no the question you should be asking is why do you hate yourself so much for existing...forget about whether it has anything to do with being trans or not.

Quote from: FA on June 17, 2014, 02:58:24 PM
Hmmm... yeah, though I wonder, do you think that "I feel like a boy" could have later become an outlet for those feelings too, even if they were a little different than that, or more complex? I mean, a lot of cis people feel wrong about or hate certain body parts as well, and a lot of cis girls are horrified by puberty, you know? Without identifying as a boy or anything.

Sorry I'm not assuming anything though, just some thoughts, plus I know you're not really holding onto any insecurities about this so sorry if I'm being too nosy :D

I'm just trying to figure stuff out... I don't know. :/ I still don't even know why I transitioned anyway, at this point I kinda hate my past self for acting like I have to affirm gender roles and be a girl just to be me, even if the real alternative was pretty unforgiving too.


No, it's okay. I don't think physical gender dysphoria is something one can understand if they haven't had it. I mean, yeah most cis girls hate their bodies or aspects of their bodies. This is different. And I really don't know how I came to be trans - maybe happened in the womb, maybe not. I'm not really attached to any theory. But it's been there as long as I can remember. From at least 4 years old (and earlier, from relative accounts). I didn't really have genital dysphoria, but I had genital confusion at a young age. Puberty is where it got bad.

One of the issues being ftm is the fear or possibility of ingrained misogyny. I mean, we live in a world where being female is the inferior state of being and has been for all of recorded history. Instead of just dismissing that angle, I've tried to explore it. Is the physical dysphoria a symptom of internalized misogyny? All I know is whatever happened to make me trans, happened very early in life for me (and no I wasn't abused or anything). And I have no doubt that I was meant to transition, no matter how it came to be.

I know a lot of people might disagree with that, and I would have early in transition as well. But well, I've come to a point that the why doesn't matter anymore. If they autopsy my brain and discover I was never 'really' trans, that doesn't matter to me (deceased or otherwise lol). I still know I made the right and only choice I could have made.

I don't really know what to say other than that I wish I felt that sure of anything :D hah.

I don't have anything grounding me in my trans identity, other than that I have a lot more in common with girls and I'm more accepted as a girl, and I have a pretty deformed body for a guy... though it feels ugly for a girl to me too, but I know that's colored by feeling invalid.

I mean, I had a lot of very very intense body dysphoria in puberty, but it had more to do with being fat. I never had to think about how it would feel to look particularly masculine in any one way, though I don't think I would have minded either as long as I could have my own style... idk.  :-\ actually in spite of how un-guyish I looked, I felt better about my body as a boy because I didn't really look like anyone, there was nobody to compare to. I did still compare to other girls a lot, but I didn't think they expected me to look pretty in a conventionally female way at least.

Quote from: Ms Grace on June 17, 2014, 03:32:41 PM
Definitely. I knew I was being a real douche but because I kept it secretly tucked away in my brain that apparently made it "alright". Being challenged on it just forced me to realise I was being duplicitous.

So Sad Panda, do you dislike other trans people? Is that why you want to join cis centric society, so you can jeer at us? If your answer is yes then you do indeed have transphobia, if the answer is no the question you should be asking is why do you hate yourself so much for existing...forget about whether it has anything to do with being trans or not.

No, it's not like I'm gonna run a trans hate campaign or deny trans people any rights, but I'm honestly not that optimistic about trans people ever finding acceptance and respect in the cis world, actually especially when cis people become more familiar with trans people, I just feel like trans people are usually pretty different than cis people of the same gender, that's honestly how I feel, I'm not trying to be mean or anything.

Not that being different is wrong, but I think it would be harder for cis girls to find common ground with trans girls than with other cis girls for example and that is a barrier to cis people empathizing with trans people.

But... I'm frustrated with the whole concept of gender in the first place... so, sigh :(

I hate myself for a lot of reasons, probably ultimately because I was raised by people who made me feel hated, but it's hard to get rid of core beliefs like that just b/c I am aware of them, you know?

Quote from: sad panda on June 17, 2014, 03:33:07 PM

I don't really know what to say other than that I wish I felt that sure of anything :D hah.

I don't have anything grounding me in my trans identity, other than that I have a lot more in common with girls and I'm more accepted as a girl, and I have a pretty deformed body for a guy... though it feels ugly for a girl to me too, but I know that's colored by feeling invalid.

I imagine the uncertainty would be tough. But you're young still. A lot of people don't know who they are at your age.

QuoteI mean, I had a lot of very very intense body dysphoria in puberty, but it had more to do with being fat.

Well, that makes sense. Kids can be really nasty. Overweight kids are an easy target. Weight can cause some dysphoria as overweight women are made to feel they're too big and unfeminine. And overweight men are seen as unmanly sometimes. Really, it's just a bias. Being thin works the same way - it can be seen as weak and effeminate on men and not womanly/curvy enough on women. Hardly anyone has the ideal male or female body.

Well, I'll put that question back to you - do you think being heavy as a kid and having dysphoria about it played any part in your gender issues?

QuoteI never had to think about how it would feel to look particularly masculine in any one way, though I don't think I would have minded either as long as I could have my own style... idk.  :-\ actually in spite of how un-guyish I looked, I felt better about my body as a boy because I didn't really look like anyone, there was nobody to compare to. I did still compare to other girls a lot, but I didn't think they expected me to look pretty in a conventionally female way at least.

This could well be a result of living perceived as female. Women are so scrutinized and so judged first and foremost on their appearance. By men and women. Everybody. It's sort of the female version of men being judged on behavior. A man has to act right. A woman has to look right.

Quote from: sad panda on June 17, 2014, 03:43:25 PM
But... I'm frustrated with the whole concept of gender in the first place... so, sigh :(

I totally understand. Me too.

Quote from: sad panda on June 17, 2014, 03:43:25 PM
I hate myself for a lot of reasons, probably ultimately because I was raised by people who made me feel hated, but it's hard to get rid of core beliefs like that just b/c I am aware of them, you know?

Hug. :)

Quote from: FA on June 17, 2014, 04:07:16 PM
I imagine the uncertainty would be tough. But you're young still. A lot of people don't know who they are at your age.
Well, that makes sense. Kids can be really nasty. Overweight kids are an easy target. Weight can cause some dysphoria as overweight women are made to feel they're too big and unfeminine. And overweight men are seen as unmanly sometimes. Really, it's just a bias. Being thin works the same way - it can be seen as weak and effeminate on men and not womanly/curvy enough on women. Hardly anyone has the ideal male or female body.

Yeah, I was judged a lot for my weight, mainly by my family, kinda made to feel less than human for a long time.

QuoteWell, I'll put that question back to you - do you think being heavy as a kid and having dysphoria about it played any part in your gender issues?

Probably not, I was pretty girly before I gained the weight too. I do think my body influenced my gender issues though, I mean, I wouldn't have transitioned if I were more physically masculine, and my weight may have influenced how my body turned out (being fat raises your estrogen levels, though it's nothing like being on HRT, probably just something like reverse PCOS, in fact I think that's actually the cause of PCOS if I remember right... extra estrogen shutting down the ovaries), so in a way I guess it could have. But then who knows, I could have suddenly gained so much fat in puberty because my body had some problem that also made it less masculine.

I mean, my body also probably influenced my identity, I was treated different than a lot of men, or often outright mistaken for a girl and stuff. And online I was usually just assumed to be a girl, and I never had guy friends. All the while I wasn't socializing as a boy really so it's hard to feel meant for either world, but somehow I never doubted that I was allowed to be a boy like I doubt that I'm allowed to be a girl. Or rather, I didn't worry that people would reject my status as a boy, or that I would be judged for saying I was a boy, or thought of as an invader into the world of boys, or whatever people would think.

QuoteThis could well be a result of living perceived as female. Women are so scrutinized and so judged first and foremost on their appearance. By men and women. Everybody. It's sort of the female version of men being judged on behavior. A man has to act right. A woman has to look right.

Well, I mean I always felt I had to look right... I especially developed an intense, nagging sense of that when I was overweight, which turned into all out agoraphobia for a long time, but before I felt I had to look right as *myself*, now I feel I have to look like something I can't actually be.. I have to disguise my natural appearance. that's why it's so hard, I feel like the unwanted/lesser fake version. So even in my worst phases of stressing over how I looked before... I never hated my body nearly as much or on as fundamental of a level as I do now, you know?

Cuz for a cis girl, there's this message... (it's not a good one of course but there's this message) just fix yourself up and you can be pretty, if you live up to the standards of beauty set for girls, you will be loved... but for me, that's never possible.

Quote from: paula lesley on June 17, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
We can never be " cis " if we choose to change. But who the f**k cares anyway ?

I'm sorry but, I care.

There's not much to say. I don't know why everybody is trying to motivate you when you're not stupid, you know life sucks and you know exactly why it sucks for you and you know how you react to the suckiness and you know why you react that way, and you know that theres really very few alternatives to your personal sucky reality. Some things you can fix and others just..are.

Everybody trying to motivate you its like...its like trying to keep a feather in the air. You blow and blow and blw but gravity us bringing it down, because gravity is an uncheangeable reality. So unless you can change gravity somehow why not just let the feather fall to the ground? You'll never be able to fly, you ain't a bird, you ain't even *attached* to a bird no more...so just let it drop and let it chill with the dustmites. It's a weird analoigy, I know.

Point is trying to get better just adds exhaustion to the sadness. Cuz it's never gonna be alright. It's always going to be painful. Nothing you can do about that. But don't listen to the people who are trying to bring you up because if you do you'll just end up lonesome because people learn pretty quick who can and can't be saved, and they stop caring until it's too late (then after that they love you again and everybody scrambles to make like they never stopped).

But yeah. Hey at least you're a swans feather, tho. Grade A ->-bleeped-<-. You're beautiful so at least let yourself not be too extremely insecure about that...you do need SOME solaces after all.

Quote from: Abbyxo on June 17, 2014, 06:06:52 PM
I don't know why everybody is trying to motivate you when you're not stupid

We do it because this is a support site and we are there for each other in good AND bad times. I personally have no problem talking to someone who has questions so my time is not WASTED at all. I would be offended if someone called me a grade A ->-bleeped-<- if my topic was about possibly having transphobia.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 17, 2014, 06:29:10 PM
We do it because this is a support site and we are there for each other in good AND bad times. I personally have no problem talking to someone who has questions so my time is not WASTED at all. I would be offended if someone called me a grade A ->-bleeped-<- if my topic was about possibly having transphobia.

Ohh, peshaw. I use "->-bleeped-<-" endearingly and SP knows that. It's just shorthand of transgender and way overblown imho.

And as for the other...umm okay. But what people don't realize is platitudes can make you feel isolated. The funny thing is it seems like 99% of people giving support give it more for themselves than the person they're giving it to. Sometimes girl needs reaal talk...not "it gets better" "you can do it" etc over and over.

What is it about transgender/transsexualism that you feel uncomfortable with or do not like?

I dont like spiders, im arachnophobic but every now and then lately I do find myself looking an that minute black spec on the wall and wandering: "why?"

In doing so I feel alot more conscious of it but oddly, less scared of it.

Maybe internal questioning of the phobia could lead to either reasons for these feelings  or alleviation of some of these feelings.

Another interesting question is, would you be ok being trans if there were no one else in the world or is it others perception and judgement? (even if they dont say anything)

I would personally say that talking to a professional about this is usually the best way to go but I understand that you feel that you cant.
x

Quote from: Abbyxo on June 17, 2014, 06:06:52 PM
There's not much to say. I don't know why everybody is trying to motivate you when you're not stupid, you know life sucks and you know exactly why it sucks for you and you know how you react to the suckiness and you know why you react that way, and you know that theres really very few alternatives to your personal sucky reality. Some things you can fix and others just..are.

Everybody trying to motivate you its like...its like trying to keep a feather in the air. You blow and blow and blw but gravity us bringing it down, because gravity is an uncheangeable reality. So unless you can change gravity somehow why not just let the feather fall to the ground? You'll never be able to fly, you ain't a bird, you ain't even *attached* to a bird no more...so just let it drop and let it chill with the dustmites. It's a weird analoigy, I know.

Point is trying to get better just adds exhaustion to the sadness. Cuz it's never gonna be alright. It's always going to be painful. Nothing you can do about that. But don't listen to the people who are trying to bring you up because if you do you'll just end up lonesome because people learn pretty quick who can and can't be saved, and they stop caring until it's too late (then after that they love you again and everybody scrambles to make like they never stopped).

But yeah. Hey at least you're a swans feather, tho. Grade A ->-bleeped-<-. You're beautiful so at least let yourself not be too extremely insecure about that...you do need SOME solaces after all.

Thanks Abby, you know how it is. :laugh: I think it would be easier if I felt beautiful... hah, but I don't. I feel like a walrus. I'm gonna get skinny again and see where that gets me at least. last time I was skinny... yeah, I was basically pre-HRT. I'm tried of feeling like a blob of human. Right now I'm sorta just at the point of skinny or die, literally, if I can't start enjoying something in life it's going to stop being worth it, this is just painful, and not in a fun way.

Quote from: autumnwind44 on June 17, 2014, 08:11:54 PM
What is it about transgender/transsexualism that you feel uncomfortable with or do not like?

It's a whole lotta things, but the main thing would be how it is basically an identity revolving around being an incomplete version of something that's already normal. I don't like how it can carry subhuman status to people. I don't like how it makes life way harder. I don't like how it plays into/reinforces gender norms either, it puts them on a pedestal even when most trans people don't really fit their target gender's roles anyway. It causes people to change themselves to fit some stupid norm, and people can say they don't change but they do.

QuoteAnother interesting question is, would you be ok being trans if there were no one else in the world or is it others perception and judgement? (even if they dont say anything)

Well, it is people's judgment, or like, how I think they will judge me, but I wouldn't be trans if there were no one else in the world. I wouldn't care what my body is like if I'm never going to see people again anyway. I only want to look good for other people. I spend most of the time in dumpy PJs with my hair in a sloppy topknot, looking horrid. It just doesn't matter to me if nobody's going to see me anyway.

QuoteI would personally say that talking to a professional about this is usually the best way to go but I understand that you feel that you cant.
x

I could probably talk to a gender therapist about it but I don't know if they'd be able to help me and normal therapists seem unsure of themselves on this issue. :(

But yeah I would talk to a gender therapist if there were one in my area (there's not)

I think being aware that you have transphobic feelings (and that they probably are internally rooted in things you don't like about yourself) is the first step to getting over them.   It's not the last step, obv, but most people that have that kind of phobia (seen a ton with homophobia) don't even have that a whiff of that kind of introspection and, like, actually think their passion for that issue exists because it's some kind of a righteous cause.   So that's how I know you'll get over it.   Well I don't know-know, but I think you will.

A couple kind of pointless things I want to say, that I just feel like I need to say idk why—first, i know it's the narrative we're "supposed" to have, and I am sure many trans people claim it when it's not true, idk, but I really did know I was the wrong gender pretty much when I first understood the concept of it.   Many super early memories I won't go into because this already is boring, but just wanted to say that.  Maybe I'm just being defensive, but it is true.

Second, well, nah I won't talk about that, I've been defensive/making this about me enough in this response lol.

SP it seems like if you could just redefine "normal" your quality of life would improve dramatically.

From what you have said I don't see how detransition or anything else really is going to make you happier until you come to grips with this strong desire to be normal. I would also assume that this transphobia and self loathing are deeply connected to this desire for normality.

The irony is wanting to be normal that badly is actually abnormal in and of itself for most people feeling like they fit in somewhere is enough because normal is usually connected with an ideal that is unattainable.

Good luck, I really think you and a therapist should explore those feelings but your life is yours to live so do with that advice what you will.

Quote from: Jen on June 18, 2014, 12:39:10 PM

A couple kind of pointless things I want to say, that I just feel like I need to say idk why—first, i know it's the narrative we're "supposed" to have, and I am sure many trans people claim it when it's not true, idk, but I really did know I was the wrong gender pretty much when I first understood the concept of it.   Many super early memories I won't go into because this already is boring, but just wanted to say that.  Maybe I'm just being defensive, but it is true.

Second, well, nah I won't talk about that, I've been defensive/making this about me enough in this response lol.

I think there is a tendency, especially with trans people, to project our feelings onto others. If we've never experienced something and it seems foreign to us, we try to rationalize it any way we know how. For instance, there are some things other trans guys go through that I don't understand. I don't understand bottom dysphoria extreme enough to have surgery. I don't understand guys like Thomas Beatty. But I don't have to. I don't experience life the same way, and that's ok.

From what I understand, SP, your dysphoria is almost entirely social. So, you're just not going to understand physical dysphoria. And I think there's probably an awareness spectrum.  People who have known all their lives and people who haven't. People very invested in their identity as male/female. And people who aren't, but still needed to transition.

I wonder how much of this identity confusion you're having is just transphobia. Or perhaps, you really are just an androgynous soul without a strong leaning either way.

Yeah totally, it's hard to understand something without contextualizing it with your own experience, impossible even.

I think projection is something everybody on earth does almost every single moment of being conscious.  It's just how we deal with everything outside of ourselves, for that same reason—contextualization through our own personal frames of knowledge and experience.   Everybody is a mirror.  We look at them, we see ourselves.  We look at them and see something about ourselves we hate, we hate their guts.

Quote from: Jen on June 18, 2014, 12:39:10 PM
I think being aware that you have transphobic feelings (and that they probably are internally rooted in things you don't like about yourself) is the first step to getting over them.   It's not the last step, obv, but most people that have that kind of phobia (seen a ton with homophobia) don't even have that a whiff of that kind of introspection and, like, actually think their passion for that issue exists because it's some kind of a righteous cause.   So that's how I know you'll get over it.   Well I don't know-know, but I think you will.

A couple kind of pointless things I want to say, that I just feel like I need to say idk why—first, i know it's the narrative we're "supposed" to have, and I am sure many trans people claim it when it's not true, idk, but I really did know I was the wrong gender pretty much when I first understood the concept of it.   Many super early memories I won't go into because this already is boring, but just wanted to say that.  Maybe I'm just being defensive, but it is true.

Second, well, nah I won't talk about that, I've been defensive/making this about me enough in this response lol.

Thanks Jen, it's okay to talk about yourself :)

I'm not trying to say I don't believe you or that trans people can't know from a young age or anything. I just can't personally judge anyone else's subjective experience, which is heavily influenced by personal biases and interpretations, even false memories are pretty easy to create, or real ones easy to repress. And most trans people weren't begging their parents as kids, consistently, to transition. Which is what most kids do when they want or need something, they don't really bottle things up or compartmentalize their feelings. There are trans kids out there, but they're a lot rarer than trans adults. I think most people's trans feelings are more complex. It's just my opinion though, I could actually be wrong, but who's gonna prove anything anyway? Most trans people already decided that science is going to vindicate their experiences, even though they don't understand the science and scientists don't actually understand the brain.

And I don't mean that any of this really matters to me, in any case, I would still believe that gender roles are crap and that transitioning reinforces them. I still believe you shouldn't have to change your gender to change your body or your interests or whatever, for whatever reason you choose to, and maybe that's not reasonable in today's world but I think being trans is used as a not so great solution to a whole spectrum of different problems. I just see a future where transition is totally unnecessary. For pretty much anyone, it's like getting a combo meal when you just want the fries. Why should you have to pretend you wanted the drink too? And this is a combo that doesn't need to exist anymore anyway.

Quote from: Hikari on June 18, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
SP it seems like if you could just redefine "normal" your quality of life would improve dramatically.

From what you have said I don't see how detransition or anything else really is going to make you happier until you come to grips with this strong desire to be normal. I would also assume that this transphobia and self loathing are deeply connected to this desire for normality.

The irony is wanting to be normal that badly is actually abnormal in and of itself for most people feeling like they fit in somewhere is enough because normal is usually connected with an ideal that is unattainable.

Good luck, I really think you and a therapist should explore those feelings but your life is yours to live so do with that advice what you will.

Yeah I think you're right, I've never felt like I fit in anywhere, I probably can't stand to just see people feeling like they belong to something. Honestly it makes me incredibly jealous but also makes me feel even more fake in acting like I really feel like something, because I don't, and I'm sad that I have to pretend I do just to get through life.

Quote from: FA on June 18, 2014, 01:06:18 PM
I think there is a tendency, especially with trans people, to project our feelings onto others. If we've never experienced something and it seems foreign to us, we try to rationalize it any way we know how. For instance, there are some things other trans guys go through that I don't understand. I don't understand bottom dysphoria extreme enough to have surgery. I don't understand guys like Thomas Beatty. But I don't have to. I don't experience life the same way, and that's ok.

From what I understand, SP, your dysphoria is almost entirely social. So, you're just not going to understand physical dysphoria. And I think there's probably an awareness spectrum.  People who have known all their lives and people who haven't. People very invested in their identity as male/female. And people who aren't, but still needed to transition.

I wonder how much of this identity confusion you're having is just transphobia. Or perhaps, you really are just an androgynous soul without a strong leaning either way.

Yeah, I think I'm just tired of being stuck in this limbo. It's not like I want to tell anyone what to do, or need their experiences to be any particular thing I just don't know what to do with myself and can't live with feeling so out of place everywhere. I just want to be myself :( Thanks FA.

Ohh there's one thing I'm very sure of is I was very young when I knew. When I'm going through trans self hatred that makes it even harder because of how definitive that is...like firmly age 7, can't say before then cuz I don't remember much and it was pretty ungendered.

Anyway all I know is my whole life within memory it's been there...like a constant daily thing and it's always been like the one major thing I associate myself. Which I guess hurts and helps at the same time because while it doesn't give me room for excuses it also forces me to accept my decision to transition.

But yeah now its MY turn to apologize for talking about myself. I guess to me it personally seems funny anybody would even doubt that because of what a major thing its been throughout my entire life...like just one fact of my existence like having brown eyes

Edit:

Also, I do have concrete stuff from other people like my grammar said she knew I was going to be like this because when I was little I'd play with her jewelry and talk about being a girl when I grew up and my sister said I'd always make her call me Stefani. Not that I need proof cuz again its just kinda a basic tenant if my identity unfortunatelt  more than something that's really up for debate.

But yeah I remember when I was really little I thought it was a sin. I thought it was called Feminism and I thought that's why my mom hated feminists lol. And I saw it on Oprah and Dateline and my mom and dad made fun of it so I knew it was a no no.

The only time I told my mom was when I said I wanted to be like I Dream if Jeannie and she yelled at me and told me I couldn't watch it anymore because it was making me weird lmao

SP, in the end, I have to believe in my own reality and I suppoooooose I will let you believe in yours :).

Abby, i try to imagine what life would be like feeling fine/good with your sex from birth and I try thinking of how I feel now, which is not great, but okay with who I am in the world and how I look, and then try to imagine feeling this way my whole life, and then I get sad and jealous of cis people.  But then I realize I have a layer that cis people don't–of spending so much time being anywhere from uncomfortable to (later on) being tortured by living a wrong existence.  I think that layer makes my imagination of a cis existence different from what it really would be like anyway.  So I just have given up on imaging what it's like to be cis, or to have lived GD-free, because I don't think i can do it.   But I did learn that my jealousy is more rooted in how it felt to live a lie than it is in some kind of supposed great experience I missed out on.

Idk, just some over-analyzation for ya there...

@abby

Yeah I'm really sorry if what I'm saying seems invalidating. I mean I really don't know what it's like for anyone else, or for you, even though we're similar in a lot of ways, I just never had that feeling, or if I did, I don't remember it, I mean nobody remembers my past anyway so nobody would have mentioned it. I just mainly think it should be ok for everyone to be exactly like themselves, I guess b/c I'm so aware that I can't be.

@jen

That's interesting. I don't know if it helps but I feel like my childhood was a normal cis existence most of the time... or just, I mean, like it didn't matter. I had friends, we would do stuff. I was out at a sleepover every friday night. Actually, I was out all the time. Me and my best friend would do everything together--parties, hanging out somewhere all day, doing weird trendy crafts (y'know like cat's cradle, origami fortune tellers, bead animals, stuff like that), drawing, gossiping, listening to songs on repeat all night, going to theme parks or swimming or whatever. He was gay but he never told me. I had a crush on him. When he was 10 he got a cell phone so I did too to fit in, then he got a girlfriend so I did too to fit in, but I don't think I even remember her last name, we basically never saw each other and had agreed that kissing was gross. All that time I really wanted to kiss my friend. I had my first experiences with other boys right around then, never told my friend. I was around a lot of boys actually--I never liked boyish things but it didn't matter, I didn't have to like them, I just had to be nice and go along with it. I never joined sports, but I went to a training day with one of my friends who did once, it was awful to be honest but it was just a thing you do when you have friends. I had a friend who liked hunting, it scared me but I tried shooting his BB gun once. I had a friend who loved inuyasha, so I would help her print out pictures of him for this binder she had. Most if not all of my female friends got crushes on me and then got hurt by me being indifferent though. And I didn't even think about why I was indifferent, I hardly even thought about my sexuality, I went through a long asexual phase as a teen.

Getting fat around puberty ruined my life after that point but I mean, I had all these experiences where I just never thought about gender, it was just like a thing, I don't know. So I guess that's what a cis person's experience is like? It's something you just take for granted, really no matter what happens. It took going through puberty and then also having a very different body than guys to really push me to transition I guess, and even then, it was just something I sort of fell into doing, Idk. But yeah, just for me, as a kid I wasn't nearly self-aware enough to analyze it or identify myself as anything. Like when I envied something girls had/did, I didn't turn that into envying the fact that they were girls, I just envied that thing. I mean I never felt different than girls though or like I was stuck in boy land and they were going off into girl land where I belonged. I wasn't really interested in connecting any dots like that.

When I was younger, I used to feel fairly intense internalized transphobia.  The older I get, the less I feel it.  Tbh at this point it's just an echo of an echo. 

I can identify with a lot of that too, SP.   Just the whole thing of going with the flow when I was young and trying to fit in best I could with my friends and stuff.  Sometimes failing, often kinda making it work.

But that was mostly gender stuff, which I think of as being a separate thing from the feeling I had that I was/should have been/wanted to be a girl.  The two were definitely related, and I acted inauthentically in both areas for the same reasons (fear) but still they stand very separate in my mind.  One was this business of trying not to act like a girl (which never caused me too much internal discomfort, but some), and the other was the effort I was making to try to not BE a girl.  That was the one that was trouble.  It scraped at me and tore away at me bit by bit in such an erosive fashion.  Where I could handle it when I was really young, but the more time went by, the more pain it caused, until finally I was destroyed.

I don't know how else to describe it to anybody that never felt it.  i'm sure it doesn't make sense.  But idk, there was just this internal understanding i had that I was the wrong sex, and that is the thing that eventually broke me.   It was always there, though for sure the pain I felt from it intensified over time.

Quote from: sad panda on June 18, 2014, 02:17:47 PM
And most trans people weren't begging their parents as kids, consistently, to transition.

There is a reason us older transitioners didn't beg for transition. Quite simply the times were VERY different and instead of acceptance some of us were subjected to awful and sometimes very abusive reparative therapy. It ranged from hypnosis to corporal punishment. I was subjected to it myself and was basically beaten into submission and accepting what I was born at, period. That is I think one of the reasons for so many older transitioners here.

Quote from: Jen on June 18, 2014, 07:35:44 PM
I can identify with a lot of that too, SP.   Just the whole thing of going with the flow when I was young and trying to fit in best I could with my friends and stuff.  Sometimes failing, often kinda making it work.

But that was mostly gender stuff, which I think of as being a separate thing from the feeling I had that I was/should have been/wanted to be a girl.  The two were definitely related, and I acted inauthentically in both areas for the same reasons (fear) but still they stand very separate in my mind.  One was this business of trying not to act like a girl (which never caused me too much internal discomfort, but some), and the other was the effort I was making to try to not BE a girl.  That was the one that was trouble.  It scraped at me and tore away at me bit by bit in such an erosive fashion.  Where I could handle it when I was really young, but the more time went by, the more pain it caused, until finally I was destroyed.

I don't know how else to describe it to anybody that never felt it.  i'm sure it doesn't make sense.  But idk, there was just this internal understanding i had that I was the wrong sex, and that is the thing that eventually broke me.   It was always there, though for sure the pain I felt from it intensified over time.

I actually read this post earlier and then I thought of it while I was watching one of my shows with a lot of gay romance... like, I don't know why, but I want to be a boy. I really want to. I really want to be like the characters in this show and have a lovely romance like that.

Then I was like, but how can I be a boy? What can I do? Should I cut my hair? Should I stop hormones? Save for top surgery? I mean I want to be a boy but it's hard to accept change. Mostly, I don't want to have to tell everyone. And I'm confused if what I want is realistic. I looked up some boy clothes but didn't know what I should get. Why can't I just wear girly clothes? Anyway, I mean these shows are made by girls, for girls. I'd love to have a romance like that but would it ever happen in the real world? PRobably not. Grrr. Guys would be grossed out by another guy falling in love with them right? I mean normal straight guys. Guys you meet everyday. Why would they be grossed out if I was a boy but not if I called myself a girl? It's stupid. Yeah.. I want to have that kind of love but it will probably never happen..right?

Yeah, I don't know if it's the same, but these feelings are so painful. I don't know what to do with myself, all I feel is this intense lack of something.  I really feel like I should be a boy but I don't know how to do that or if it will be real/

Straight guys might not be into you if you came onto them as male, but gay guys that are into femmish boys, for sure.  I mean I've seen some very feminine (acting and looking) gay dudes than seem to do great with guys.

QuoteWhy would they be grossed out if I was a boy but not if I called myself a girl?

Such an interesting and thought provoking question, esp because it's coming from you and I know your situation somewhat.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 18, 2014, 09:15:54 PM
There is a reason us older transitioners didn't beg for transition. Quite simply the times were VERY different and instead of acceptance some of us were subjected to awful and sometimes very abusive reparative therapy. It ranged from hypnosis to corporal punishment. I was subjected to it myself and was basically beaten into submission and accepting what I was born at, period. That is I think one of the reasons for so many older transitioners here.

^This.

My first furtive forays were in the infancy of the internets.  Netscape 2.0 and lynx browser anyone?
There was some stuff around, but being trans was like yeah, I'm gonna go be a showgirl, sex worker, or go on Donahue.  The implication being, you're headed for the poor house.

I'm so glad it's better for the younger ones coming up now, positive role models abound.

Jessica, add exorcism to the list as well...

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 18, 2014, 09:15:54 PM
There is a reason us older transitioners didn't beg for transition. Quite simply the times were VERY different and instead of acceptance some of us were subjected to awful and sometimes very abusive reparative therapy. It ranged from hypnosis to corporal punishment. I was subjected to it myself and was basically beaten into submission and accepting what I was born at, period. That is I think one of the reasons for so many older transitioners here.

Most definately. I shudder to think what would have happened if I told my mom or dad that I wanted to be a girl when I was five. Trans was something that just did not exist in the minds of people with their children back then especially in the area that I grew up. That was something that was limited to movies and TV shows and fairy tale places like New York,  Los Angeles and San Francisco.

Quote from: luna nyan on June 19, 2014, 07:11:46 AM

My first furtive forays were in the infancy of the internets.  Netscape 2.0 and lynx browser anyone?
There was some stuff around, but being trans was like yeah, I'm gonna go be a showgirl, sex worker, or go on Donahue.  The implication being, you're headed for the poor house.

I'm so glad it's better for the younger ones coming up now, positive role models abound.

Jessica, add exorcism to the list as well...

My mom was a devout Pentecostal, so I can just imagine what would have happened to me. That church used to scare the crap out of me with people talking all funny and jumping whooping and hollering and dancing. So I can just imagine how in the mid seventies and I metioned that I wanted to be a girl instead of a boy with a mother so embedded into a radical religion. An exorcism might have been a leasurly ordeal compared to what may have happened.

In relation, though we dinosaurs can compare now to back then, but I don't think it is any easier. Definately safer and yeah there are a lot more role models and it is more accepted than it was definately depending upon what area you come from. But I think it is still just as emotionally and psychologically as hard on the young ones as it was, has been and still is on us. I still don't think people can understand what we feel when the internal and external gender is so out of synche with one another. Especially when most people's self identities internal and external match. I think most people can understand the LGB better because that is a sexual preference and what turns us on sexually is a lot easier to understand and explain away than a disassociation with internal feelings and external characteristics. I think a lot of us such as in relations to sad panda's OP can't even understand it, I know I don't. I go back and forth like a pendulem from day to day. Trying to keep both in harmony with one another gets confusing, exhausting and a lot of other feelings I just don't have words for. I wish that "pendulem" would run down and stick in the middle or one extreme side or the other. Even though I am not internally transphobic, I have experienced too many people from all across the spectrum for that, you are not alone in your confusion.

Quote from: luna nyan on June 19, 2014, 07:11:46 AM
There was some stuff around, but being trans was like yeah, I'm gonna go be a showgirl, sex worker, or go on Donahue.  The implication being, you're headed for the poor house.

I'm sorry but again, honestly what kind of child thinks this way? Or are we still talking about children? I'm confused  ???

Quote from: Jen on June 19, 2014, 12:02:05 AM
Straight guys might not be into you if you came onto them as male, but gay guys that are into femmish boys, for sure.  I mean I've seen some very feminine (acting and looking) gay dudes than seem to do great with guys.

Such an interesting and thought provoking question, esp because it's coming from you and I know your situation somewhat.

Yeah, and I don't know if it even matters actually... at least I'd have the fantasy. I'm just feeling like I really want to be a boy, it's weird. I know it's not really based in reality but I want the comfort of being cis so badly lately. But then there's gender roles, and I really still can't find the answer for what I'm supposed to do. I miss not being aware of how limiting the presence of gender is. It's just not something you can up and change about yourself one day because you feel like it. I don't even know what it IS, beyond paperwork and a whole lotta expectations. The reason I want to be a boy so bad is because I want to drop out of this stupid gender parade that the whole world is in love with. But, it's really a sin to do that isn't it? Maybe famous people can get away with it, because they don't live an ordinary life. But I'm not famous or a saint, or even really an adult, I'm just a boring, plain average, lost person and I hate feeling like I have to fight a losing battle against the world's stuff just to be myself. I hate feeling like I have to become some kind of provocateur just to wear some freaking pastels and do my hair without pretending to have a uterus, you know? And by acting like they need to be called and recognized as a certain gender to look, feel, think or act a certain way, trans people are reinforcing all these roles that are leaving people to fall through the cracks. It's just like with sexuality... there are lots of essentially bi guys who might be interested in a femme boy like me but would tell themselves, "no, I have to be straight, that's how it is, it has to be a guy and a girl." They feel like they need some imaginary permission to like another guy. But people are easing up on sexuality and a lot of guys are realizing like, wow, I don't necessarily have to identify as gay to kinda like penises, I don't have to swear off women, I can just be me. When will people realize and feel able to act like they can just be themselves, look like themselves, act like themselves without having to be called he or she, or recognized as a he or a she? I refuse to believe that anyone needs those things because they're always tacked on to how a person REALLY feels. Like how I felt... "I want to act like a stereotypical girl.... so I need to be called she and her and pretend I have a uterus"

Maybe for someone else it's... "I feel like I'm really supposed to have a vagina so I guess I also need to be called she and her and amend my birth certificate"

But there's always this obvious discomfort with simply wanting something for what it is without deferring to the institution of gender to validate it. What would be the difference if we simply accepted men who just wanted to take hormones, get SRS and BA and FFS, and do whatever else, maybe date men, maybe paint their nails, whatever, and didn't judge them for it? What would really be lost if they didn't have to legally transition to do those things? Tons of shame and fear over passing/not passing? Being treated like a criminal for using a public bathroom? Social rejection and isolation? A ton of administrative nightmares? Serious dating and sexuality issues?

But, sigh, I'm just ranting at nobody and nothing in particular. I just feel like the world is made for people who are not me. I feel like I'm a foot tall in a world of normal-heighted individuals, and the worst thing is that if I don't hide being a foot tall, people will mostly either act like I should hide it or otherwise shame me as if I chose to be, because they're not. There are a few other people like me, but they don't really get me, cuz they all walk around on goofy stilts and peer down at me as if I'm really different than them. As if they're not just wearing goofy stilts. They're actually trying really hard to forget. I mean I know they have a lot of reasons and feel like they need to, and admittedly it can be hard for me to reach things, cuz nobody planned the environment around short people. But I still think those stilts are goofy as heck and that they're hurting themselves by desperately trying to pretend they were born tall. They're hurting short people, because they're trying so hard to make it look like short people don't exist, or being short is a mistake, so people don't adjust to and nothing is made to serve the needs of short people. Even though people just honestly think it's goofy that a bunch of short people are walking around on stilts anyway. I mean at best, they go, "wow, it's like you're actually tall! You can be one of us." When there shouldn't have been a separate us in the first place. I mean even tall people come in different heights, even if they're a lot closer to the average. Everyone's still a person though.

This is why, in my daily life, I personally will hide being trans as long as I am stuck in transition... it's not because I'm afraid or ashamed that people will think I used to be a boy... it's because I'm afraid people will realize I'm actually pretending to be female. I just feel goofy as heck about the whole thing.

I don't really know what advice to give, it seems like everything is going to lead to a sort of circular logic of keeping you unhappy and on the outside looking in. The ideal of being normal or even authentic that you seem to harbor doesn't seem very realistic.

Do you have a sense of self? I mean what is wrong with accepting that no matter if it is agendered, bigendered, male, female, etc? No matter who you feel you are people will have a problem with it from Christian to Muslim to geek or jock someone will hate you. So why not just be true to however you feel since you have to know you can't win acceptance from everyone.

Perhaps it is hard for me to understand but it should be simple, accept who you are and let the chips fall wherever they do. I felt female, so I decided to embrace that, maybe that makes some people dislike me and may make others like me but what does it matter I just embrace it and let people feel about it however they do; if they are with me great if they are against me then screw em.

Quote from: Hikari on June 19, 2014, 01:32:57 PM
Do you have a sense of self? I mean what is wrong with accepting that no matter if it is agendered, bigendered, male, female, etc?

No, I  don't  :(

If it was anything it would be agender but I  get so wrapped up in what people think bc it's literally all I have to define my self. Esp when I spent a long time isolated..  I wasn't even human. Honestly I still don't feel human.  I'm basically just a thing. So no wonder it's not making sense to me :/ I  guess it's not fair of me to ask when I  can't even understand the answer.

Sorry if I'm really irritating. Ultimately I am an outsider looking in. :(

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 01:49:40 PM
Honestly I still don't feel human.  I'm basically just a thing.

I feel sad for you. You find no joy at all in being alive and a unique human being with feelings and emotions? How is that even possible? I have to say it, but you have bigger issue's than just gender identification. Please find a competent Psychologist or Psychiatrist and see if they can unravel the mystery which binds you into an existence and not life.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 19, 2014, 02:12:25 PM
I feel sad for you. You find no joy at all in being alive and a unique human being with feelings and emotions? How is that even possible? I have to say it, but you have bigger issue's than just gender identification. Please find a competent Psychologist or Psychiatrist and see if they can unravel the mystery which binds you into an existence and not life.

Uh,  it's not easy to get that way. It takes a long time of actually learning that your life means nothing to anyone, your days have no goals or purpose and nothing you do is capable of changing your situation.

I feel a little meaningful when I can be things for other people but yah as soon they leave it's like you said. I didn't feel trans until I took that role with my bf

I see a therapist but this stuff is hard to make progress on.  :( I lose hope a lot.  Also she's gone for the summer so it's been double hard,  I'm  losing a lot of the progress I made I think. Sorry I know I'm blabbering way too much about myself.

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 02:53:55 PM
Sorry I know I'm blabbering way too much about myself.

Don't apologize for what's on your mind ever. I just hope talking about it with us helps. I felt the same way as far as just existing before I began transition and HRT. Now it is like everything makes sense now and I can express myself and grow as a person and a human. Being unhappy with myself made all my other issue's almost impossible to deal with. I can definitely tell a change when I have to miss therapy for a week or two so I totally get you there. It is like the rock becomes quicksand again. The only real problem I see with you is you need to break the pattern of acting and doing what others expect of you and find the real you and express it.  :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 19, 2014, 03:25:32 PM
Don't apologize for what's on your mind ever. I just hope talking about it with us helps. I felt the same way as far as just existing before I began transition and HRT. Now it is like everything makes sense now and I can express myself and grow as a person and a human. Being unhappy with myself made all my other issue's almost impossible to deal with. I can definitely tell a change when I have to miss therapy for a week or two so I totally get you there. It is like the rock becomes quicksand again. The only real problem I see with you is you need to break the pattern of acting and doing what others expect of you and find the real you and express it.  :)

Thanks, yeah that topic comes up a lot.... I'm not really sure what the real you is supposed to feel like though :S

i think i can understand the thought of you might be transphobic. for some reason, every time i hear about a trans person or even read the boards, i get this ping. maybe its more so on an envious state that turns to serious dislike. being in my position, i cant help but to feel this way. i honestly think because of our environment that has the most impact. sry if this isnt helping. these past few days have been somewhat rough and as i was reading, i began to notice somethings lol

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 04:00:20 PM
Thanks, yeah that topic comes up a lot.... I'm not really sure what the real you is supposed to feel like though :S

Quite simply how would you act, live and do if there were no societal impacts on you? How different would you be if you were free to do anything or live as you wanted? If we were all not assigned at birth what would you have chosen to be? The only way I can see to answer these questions is to imagine yourself in a whole new city or state where no one knew you. How would you live and present? That little exercise should give you some clue as to what you need to do.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 19, 2014, 04:23:45 PM
Quite simply how would you act, live and do if there were no societal impacts on you?

Honestly I would probably either just want to die, or just sleep all the time.

It reminds me of when I took wellbutrin, I stopped thinking about what people thought/expected of me for a while, and at that point I pretty much stopped getting out of bed altogether, I didn't even feel like spending money, which is usually an outlet to me. I just felt really dead, and didn't really mind either way. Sometimes I think that's how I actually am deep down and I just am living life because I feel like I'm supposed to/owe it to people.

QuoteHow different would you be if you were free to do anything or live as you wanted? If we were all not assigned at birth what would you have chosen to be? The only way I can see to answer these questions is to imagine yourself in a whole new city or state where no one knew you. How would you live and present? That little exercise should give you some clue as to what you need to do.

I actually moved to a new town, but I still just presented how I thought people would expect me to, so I'm still not sure, but yeah if I could do it again I'd be a boy just because I wouldn't have all these worries about feeling fake.

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 04:40:48 PM
Honestly I would probably either just want to die, or just sleep all the time.

I was around death every day for 28 years and I can tell you only now there is life out there. I wish you lived near me because I can only talk to you about it. I would LOVE to show you there is a happy life out there for you. I did not believe it either, but now I am living it. It did take some work though, but it is so worth it. I have new friends I never thought I would have and my whole way of thinking has changed to be more tolerant and forgiving instead of condemning.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 19, 2014, 04:52:32 PM
I was around death every day for 28 years and I can tell you only now there is life out there. I wish you lived near me because I can only talk to you about it. I would LOVE to show you there is a happy life out there for you. I did not believe it either, but now I am living it. It did take some work though, but it is so worth it. I have new friends I never thought I would have and my whole way of thinking has changed to be more tolerant and forgiving instead of condemning.

Aww, well that is sweet of you.  ^-^ We probably don't live near each other, I'm sorta in the boonies now lol... worst place for me to be. Though it's busier around here for the summer at least. I'm good at being tolerant at least just not good at defending my boundaries. If there's any good thing about being trans it has kept me out of the hospital in crisis because my boyfriend knew that, being trans, getting committed would just traumatize me even worse than stopping whatever I was going to do to myself. I grew up around suicide though, so I'm sadly just in home territory that you sound familiar with too, from the other side. :/

You do have the power to break that cycle in your life though. I had patients that should not have survived and their mental state pulled them through. It was really amazing sometimes. You have the total power to say "enough I am going to change things". You are not predestined to fail or live a life of misery at all. Do you think it was easy at all for me to transition after making a reputation as an Alpha Dog Paramedic/Firefighter? I had a 28 year history as the most unlikely trans person on the face of the Earth. I could have stayed depressed, isolated and lived every day thinking about ending myself, but after all those years of helping strangers I realized it was time for me to be happy and worry about myself for a change. I had the choice to break the cycle and so do you. What you do from this point on is up to you and not society or the expectations of others. If you fail it is all on you now. Are you up to the challenge or will you just wither away and never live a single glorious day?  :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 19, 2014, 07:07:39 PM
You do have the power to break that cycle in your life though. I had patients that should not have survived and their mental state pulled them through. It was really amazing sometimes. You have the total power to say "enough I am going to change things". You are not predestined to fail or live a life of misery at all. Do you think it was easy at all for me to transition after making a reputation as an Alpha Dog Paramedic/Firefighter? I had a 28 year history as the most unlikely trans person on the face of the Earth. I could have stayed depressed, isolated and lived every day thinking about ending myself, but after all those years of helping strangers I realized it was time for me to be happy and worry about myself for a change. I had the choice to break the cycle and so do you. What you do from this point on is up to you and not society or the expectations of others. If you fail it is all on you now. Are you up to the challenge or will you just wither away and never live a single glorious day?  :)

Well, I do get motivated to change a lot, and like I said I was making a lot of progress, it's just very hard to hold onto. My moods change like crazy, and just when I think I am really going to be able to change, I'll be hit by an unbearable wave of depression that literally makes me desperate to just be unconscious or worse. I've done some pretty insane things in those moods that I would never normally do. I've gotten better at being more productive thru those bad times, but it's like... it's just hard when you don't honestly have any real hope or dreams to draw on and your world has become so small and empty. I really want to believe in what you are saying and I can totally see that it would have been really hard for you. Though, if I'm honest with myself it's still just that I think I'm supposed to feel that way, I haven't actually found a source of real hope and faith in life. I'm really trying to get there though. Thank you for your support! :) and sorry again if I'm being irritating lol. :(

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 07:28:51 PM
and sorry again if I'm being irritating lol. :(

Quit already! you are not irritating. You have an issue and are trying to find help or advice to deal with it. As for the other, do you have any career ambitions or interest's that could help? There has to be something you want to do or dream about. Isn't there anything you want to do at all? Career? Travel? Family of your own? Anything?

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 19, 2014, 07:34:36 PM
Quit already! you are not irritating. You have an issue and are trying to find help or advice to deal with it. As for the other, do you have any career ambitions or interest's that could help? There has to be something you want to do or dream about. Isn't there anything you want to do at all? Career? Travel? Family of your own? Anything?

Well, I was kinda inspired to be a doctor or nurse, something where I could help people (I'm too messed up to be a therapist/psychiatrist) I just didn't think I could do it, also in reality I don't think I should be responsible for people's health, it would destroy me inside if I made any mistakes at all or hurt anyone. If I had to face a lawsuit or something... yeah, I wouldn't be able to cope with that pretty much ever I think.

I am trying to go back to school though, hoping to just do biology for now but they're stalling on changing my tuition and I might have to drop my late summer classes at this rate =/ but hopefully at least I will start that in the fall! I'm really scared though tbh. :( I'm always afraid that I'll make friends and get stuck between tell/not tell about my gender stuff. I feel like my transphobia makes it impossible to let people close, cuz I'm so paranoid of seeming fake to them.

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 09:10:45 AM
I'm sorry but again, honestly what kind of child thinks this way? Or are we still talking about children?

This was me in the mid 1980s.  There was no internets, only what you could glean from sensationalist articles in print media and television.

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 08:22:33 PM
Well, I was kinda inspired to be a doctor or nurse, something where I could help people (I'm too messed up to be a therapist/psychiatrist) I just didn't think I could do it, also in reality I don't think I should be responsible for people's health, it would destroy me inside if I made any mistakes at all or hurt anyone. If I had to face a lawsuit or something... yeah, I wouldn't be able to cope with that pretty much ever I think.

I would disagree with that.  If you have the passion for the work, you will learn and become competent, if not great at it.  Registered nurses work under the auspices of a supervising doctor, so it is rare they are the ones at fault.

You have a very beautiful mind panda.

People are people. I get about as frustrated at gender as you do :) (Loving your view point on it)

To me gender doesn't mater :) its irrelevant :p, yet I'm still hoping to transition why? because boy or girl or neither and both, I still want to try it. And do I "FEEL" like a girl? no. but I associate with woman on an emotional level. (When I say woman I mean my experience of people I've perceived to be woman) Never wanted to fight and take part in anything categorised male. Its just so not me.

I Like the clothes, I do, and all the other categorised female things about me, even developed stronger body dysphoria, as my bodies female features began to diminish.

So I'm doing an awful lot of talking about gender for having said its irrelevant. But truth be told is It only mattered once we start getting treated differently for being one or the other. Because I like must if not all people faced prejudices and violence for "Being ME" I wasn't supposed to do this or wear that because I was supposed to be a MAN? Its completely useless, I'm not supposed to be anything but me. Just wish the world could understand that.

So why transition at all? Because I believe my life would be easier, but from what it seams like for you it wouldn't be easier for you :). Not yet anyway.

And I'm a whatever :p I say M2F because that's what a man that wants to go through a transition to female is supposed to be called. (LOL another supposed to be) So yes as far as any terminology and or pronouns for me are concerned, I am to you what you see me as, But I, to I, am me, and me to me, is what I see. :)

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 08:22:33 PM
Well, I was kinda inspired to be a doctor or nurse, something where I could help people (I'm too messed up to be a therapist/psychiatrist)

I definately disagree with that statement 100%. Who better to help people with psycholgical problems than someone that knows what and how those probelms feel like and exaclty how they affect a person? To be a psychiatrist though be ready for college and then med school because they are indeed and MD and have to do everything a regular doctor has to go through. But one thing about that is that there are few and they are quite busy.

Sad panda, I really agree with Jessica, it sounds like you have a lot more going on than just gender issues. Whatever it is it may be exacerbating those issues but definately you need to talk with someone.

Quote from: sad panda on June 19, 2014, 04:40:48 PM
Honestly I would probably either just want to die, or just sleep all the time.

I know that feeling all too well. This statement kind of worries me. This sounds like a symptom of major depression which could be manifesting itself in gender issues or transphobic issues and issues of low self esteem. You are not irritating anyone yet believe you are, self esteem. You are just as important as anyone else. You really need to talk to your therapist and then a psychiatrist about this because you do not have to live that way.

@luna nyan

You must have been a really smart kid then lol :o

@butterflyvickster

Thanks. Yeah, just doing what you want to do regardless of gender is SO important I think. I'm bad at it but I think it is really important!

@Jess42

Well I probably have some kinda MDD like thing but it was just all rolled up into BPD which is kind of an all-encompassing garbage bin dx. It doesn't matter though, I do know all these distortions are a problem, it's just I still have to live with them every day and make choices knowing that I'm still gonna be living with them tomorrow. Like I have to force myself to keep living life as trans even though I know it will never feel good anyway.

I remember being really jealous of a psychiatrist I met once. She was like in her 20s, already a psychiatrist, and she was sooo pretty. I sort of just feel like a gross trans blob who won't even tolerate being trans. I mean maybe if I get about 5 or 6 surgeries I'd feel a little bit okay about myself, but there's still so many reasons it's not enough, it's like I can't bear to care about my social presentation when I've already given up on it so much anyway.

Quote from: sad panda on June 20, 2014, 01:25:06 PM
@Jess42

Well I probably have some kinda MDD like thing but it was just all rolled up into BPD which is kind of an all-encompassing garbage bin dx. It doesn't matter though, I do know all these distortions are a problem, it's just I still have to live with them every day and make choices knowing that I'm still gonna be living with them tomorrow. Like I have to force myself to keep living life as trans even though I know it will never feel good anyway.

I remember being really jealous of a psychiatrist I met once. She was like in her 20s, already a psychiatrist, and she was sooo pretty. I sort of just feel like a gross trans blob who won't even tolerate being trans. I mean maybe if I get about 5 or 6 surgeries I'd feel a little bit okay about myself, but there's still so many reasons it's not enough, it's like I can't bear to care about my social presentation when I've already given up on it so much anyway.

Yeah, I know. I suffer from major depression but according to my psychiatrist she diagnosed with Bipolar too. How the hell can I have Bipolar when there are no highs? Just extreme lows in which I am unable to crawl out of? She figures since my depression manifests itself as anger and rage that that is a form of mania so manic depression which is another name for bipolar depression. So it is legit and I have the Tshirt to prove it or at least diagnosis, I am a freakin maniac. ;) I maybe halfway insane but I really don't care. I am who I am, accept it or bite me. I make no apologies.

Hon, I really don't know what to say. We are all who we are. Trans or cis, acording to your avatar this one now and the one you had earlier and a couple of pictures in another thread, you should be proud of your looks. You are extremely pretty. You may be trans hon, but you are not a gross blob, far from it, I usually don't give too many compliments about appearences 'cause it seems so shallow and true beauty lies on the inside but you are a beauty as far as appearances go. To be completely honest I would give anything to go back twenty some odd years ago and go the path you went and turn out with that kind of beauty you have. But I ended up taking a different path but we all are different. I can honestly identify with how you feel about wanting to sleep all the time or die. But we have to pull ourselves out of the muck somehow. You are trans and decided to be brave and to become a woman, I am trans and and a coward and stayed a guy or as much of a guy in outward appearences as comfortably possible. I am not happy about that either and it causes me probably as much trouble as it causes you and the older I get the more regrets that I have that I didn't go the route you did. But then again we are all different.

As for transphobic not to mention racist and homophobic, if anyone grew up in a family in an area that was predestined to be all three, that was me. Yet I am not any of those. I overcame and if my simple mindedness can overcome something like that anyone can. I am me. I think the way I want to think, I feel the way I want to feel. What I want to feel is friendships or the ability to make friends with anyone regardless of anything about them. I love who I want to love as long as they love me whether or not that is within the so called norm. Whether trans, gay, bi or a little green man or woman from Mars. I have done a lot of living in my life, sometimes fast, sometimes hard sometimes easy and sometimes sleazy and have experienced a lot of subcultures which probably has made me way more accepting of others and myself. I pride myself as being not "normal" but rather look at myself as extremely unique. Good or bad, you or anyone else decide. You don't have to go that route but it takes all kinds of people, cis, trans, gay, lesbian, skinny, fat, ignorant, dumb, intellegent, open minded, closed minded, and most important of all in your life, you .

Please sad panda, never give up. Be who you want to be but never give up. I have been to that point and come so close to it, but never did it. When we go through things like what you are experiencing right now, no matter how painful, it builds character and when we overcome we become stronger for it. I like sad panda. You are smart, you have helped people here and I hope that you can come to accept and then like and eventually love yourself because you really deserve it.

It makes me sad to read your threads. It's not fair someone as beautiful and genuine ax you should be so unhappy. I'm here for you ofc, and you can text or hmu on Skype or whatever any time <3

I think you're too intelligent and too self aware for your own good and it's making you overly introspective, contemplative and insecure. I think you'd do best to stop worrying and just let go. Everything in life is relative...nothing really means anything by default..in the end we're just sort if blobs of tissue floating around a speck in the universe right? Things only have meaning that we give them and you're giving way too much to things that make you unhappy.

I think you should quit fighting the sadness and pain and let yourself feel it but keep your eye open for the little things that'll make you feel good and direct your energy there...ya know, mindfulness and all that ->-bleeped-<-.

Ive been seeing life like a black comedy lately and for whatever else it's sure made life easier to handle.

Just my two cents. I think you spend your life constantly plucking weeds but leaving the roots

Quote from: sad panda on June 20, 2014, 01:25:06 PM
@butterflyvickster

Yes your absolutely right :)

I mention my feeling about things, and focus on that :).

As said before, I like everything girly well not everything, But a lot of things, and liking and expressing myself in a male exspectasional presentation causes me a lot of grief, But seen as trans makes that easier, even if its only that I'm no longer expected to, make any hole a goal, I got so fed up of being accused of hitting on a girl just because I gave a compliment. Or being looked at like I just suggested playing football with a babies head, because I mention that I wish I looked like this girl or that girl, or had breasts.

What's the difference between, a girl that wants to look like this famous actress and a boy that wants to look like the same actress? absoloutly nothing.  A person isn't a gender a person is their emotions, their hopes desires and dreams. :)

And you cannot know a person in a brief moment of looking. So say a question, that boy and girl and ask them why they want to look like this person,

What if they both say because she is really pretty and they want to be as pretty as she does?
So say I ask them why they want to be so pretty, and they both say, Because I want to be an actress and get to wear all those beautiful clothes?

Are they still any different? To them selves no, to another yes. say they grow up and meet the guy of their dreams, that man being the same for both. And the boy is accepted for having a penis, and the girl is rejected for having a vagina?

The boy would be happy and the girl wouldn't. It might make the girl wish she was born a boy.
And its goes the same the other way. If the girl was accepted and the boy rejected.

So are any of us any different? ONLY IN THE EYES OF OTHERS :)

Which is why I Hate gender :( people expect too much of us according to external presentation. And judge us on our likes and dislikes in accordance with these expectations. So do I Need excuses? no. Because regardless of gender I still like and dislike what I like and dislike. But many of these dislikes are caused by external pressures. Point is, would I be as depressed about my body if it wasn't for external reactions to it when it came to self expression?

So for me as it stands, my like is dis satisfactory because of liking and expressing categorised female  desires in an outwardly perceived male presentation. I'm treated with distaste because of it. Of course it could be said that liking all this cross gendered stuff is as a result of being transgendered. But if I was allowed to get married to a awesome guy while wearing that awesome dress would I have a problem? would I be as depressed? I think almost all the depression comes from being told you cant have anything you like because its for this gender and your that one. Go do all this stuff you don't enjoy and be miserable for the rest of your life because that what your supposed to be.

For me the word MAN is irrelevant to how I fell, But the expectations of it, the roll I'm forced to play because of it. Its those expectations I want rid of. And although I might only ever be seen as a man In a dress. I'll be happy as long as being seen like that means it lessons other male expectations. If I'm more likely to be included in girls nights out, less likely to be included in lads night out ect. If I can give compliments and advise to a woman without coming across as creeping for sex, or a sexist pig.

But Gender, is the biggest pain in the butt possible. I take it out of the equation when it comes to reasoning.
Iv had things said to me.
Like even I'm not that girly.
Or eh girls don't play video games?

But when woman fought for the right to be a soldier it was because being a girl doesn't stop them from wanting to fight to protect their country. And when men fought for the right to be with a man, it was because being a man doesn't stop them from liking men sexually.

And when I do what I do, it is because my external presentation doesn't stop me from being miserable because of how it looks. In todays society. man or woman I still like and want what I like and want. And without them my life is worthless :P

I Think a girl forced into a dress feels the same as a man forced out of one. Because at the end of it you have a person wearing clothes they don't want to, because that's what society says is normal.

I don't think trans people are the problem, I think its society in general. I have one cis fem friend that wishes she was born male. So she could be a cross dresser without having to change her wardrobe.

Wow I'm ranting. Sorry about that panda. Just supposed Maybe I could make things a little easier, if I listed some none gender related processing I use. But then One thought led into another and boom a rant.

Quote from: Abbyxo on June 20, 2014, 03:24:34 PM
It makes me sad to read your threads. It's not fair someone as beautiful and genuine ax you should be so unhappy. I'm here for you ofc, and you can text or hmu on Skype or whatever any time <3

I think you're too intelligent and too self aware for your own good and it's making you overly introspective, contemplative and insecure. I think you'd do best to stop worrying and just let go. Everything in life is relative...nothing really means anything by default..in the end we're just sort if blobs of tissue floating around a speck in the universe right? Things only have meaning that we give them and you're giving way too much to things that make you unhappy.

I think you should quit fighting the sadness and pain and let yourself feel it but keep your eye open for the little things that'll make you feel good and direct your energy there...ya know, mindfulness and all that ->-bleeped-<-.

Ive been seeing life like a black comedy lately and for whatever else it's sure made life easier to handle.

Just my two cents. I think you spend your life constantly plucking weeds but leaving the roots

This ^^^

Quote from: Abbyxo on June 20, 2014, 03:24:34 PM
It makes me sad to read your threads. It's not fair someone as beautiful and genuine ax you should be so unhappy. I'm here for you ofc, and you can text or hmu on Skype or whatever any time <3

I think you're too intelligent and too self aware for your own good and it's making you overly introspective, contemplative and insecure. I think you'd do best to stop worrying and just let go. Everything in life is relative...nothing really means anything by default..in the end we're just sort if blobs of tissue floating around a speck in the universe right? Things only have meaning that we give them and you're giving way too much to things that make you unhappy.

I think you should quit fighting the sadness and pain and let yourself feel it but keep your eye open for the little things that'll make you feel good and direct your energy there...ya know, mindfulness and all that ->-bleeped-<-.

Ive been seeing life like a black comedy lately and for whatever else it's sure made life easier to handle.

Just my two cents. I think you spend your life constantly plucking weeds but leaving the roots

I like these thoughts.

@jess42

Thanks. Just to clarify I meant borderline PD and not bipolar depression, I'm not sure if you thought that or not but just clarifying. I can't even begin to define my moods and my feelings about life because they're so crazily unstable, except yeah... rarely positive.

But anyway, thank you for your positivity. I'm really trying not to just reject everything you said. It's honestly hard for me to take positivity seriously a lot of the time. I'm used to faking positivity just to not be a debbie downer everywhere I go (I am aware that this thread isn't exactly a shining example of that) so I honestly have to stop and really try to process all these positive ideas.

Though, please don't think my life is rainbows and sunshine because I look like a girl. I mean you said you'd trade anything to look like me (I'm sorry but it's hard to even type that because it sounds so wrong to me, I'm just repeating what you said though), but would you trade everything?

Not that I know for sure I would have had a stabler life if I didn't transition... but, since most of my problems moving forward in life are feeling stuck about this trans stuff, yeah I think I would be way better off on almost every count. And again, I wish I could believe people saying I'm pretty but, it just doesn't sound real to me. I'm sorry :-X

@Abby

Yeah... what Jen said. You are awesome.

And I definitely agree, I mean... I think what you said made complete sense and I've told myself that or something like that so many times.

I was just thinking about it but really, a lot of what I am suffering from is that at any given moment, my whole world is pretty much like... my environment + my current train of thought, which is also externally focused. I'm like missing the inner part that ties everything together and checks if it's valid or if I agree with it. Smth like that.

Actually it's just like when I was fat... I don't know if it was like this for you, but I mean most people are ashamed of being fat but can still live their life somehow... but for me, I couldn't cope with it. I had become my own trigger, so I basically completely disconnected from the world in order to not have to even be aware of myself. That was the only way to become remotely stable while still being fat, and I didn't become able to socialize and trust people again until I had stopped being fat, which mostly removed "me" from my list of triggers. Or at least simple, surface-level triggers.

Since I transitioned, I've been really trying not to allow myself to isolate as a way of dealing with this pain, because I already learned that would rob me of a future, not just the present. I really do want to pull up those roots. But that has meant that I'm always conscious of myself, and basically living in one giant trigger. I am my own walking trigger, and the thought patterns causing it haven't changed a bit since 10 years ago. I don't know how to deal with it. I don't know what I can do this time around to make it stop being an intense trigger other than obviously detransitioning. Really trying to find the answer, and when I think I've accepted being a crazy ->-bleeped-<- or whatever, it lasts about until I'm going to be around someone who has nothing to do with trans people. Then I start wanting to die because I have a belly or my voice sounds a little weird. It's not even that I overthink this, it's just that I keep coming back to it because it's never gone away.

I don't know. I'm really starting to think my brain is broken and meds are the only way this stuff is gonna change. :-\ It WAS different on wellbutrin, I stopped caring nearly as much (or even thinking about) what people think, but then I was confronted with not having any reasons to do anything anymore. I had completely stopped wanting anything from life. It was peaceful but really really hollow.

@ButterflyVickster

Yeah, I think you are pretty much echoing my thoughts on this. I don't have much to add because I agree, but, I didn't want you to think I missed your post! Thank you.

do i have to sing the happy song to you panda lol

Quote from: Vampire Brianna Terryal Onyx on June 21, 2014, 01:26:16 AM
do i have to sing the happy song to you panda lol

Uhhh, yes. Yes you do. =3=

Actually better make it the happy trans chick song  :D

Yeeaaaah... by the way after my last big post (sorry I was kinda drinking tonight) I've gotten significantly irritated with how I'm being in this thread. I really didn't mean to just shoot everything down with negativity. I just want to say thank you again to everyone who has helped me in this thread and in others! You guys are all truly beautiful people, really, and I don't say that enough. It sucks that there are people like me caught up on labels and stuff who can't just accept it all as is, I mean even just in terms of accepting myself. So, hopefully this is the last time I'm gonna need this. I don't know. Anyway love you guys <3 you are all amazing.

l

Quote from: sad panda on June 21, 2014, 02:14:20 AM
Uhhh, yes. Yes you do. =3=

Actually better make it the happy trans chick song  :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLNK86_nAWA
or do like i do. i'm a basket case so i just jump around until my legs go into shock xD

Sorry I made you come up with a song even though I can't listen to it right now! :D don't want to wake a certain sleeping somebody right now and no clue where my headphones are ;o;

Oh and yeah, I do a lot of jumping around surprisingly :3 I'm like, five.

Quote from: sad panda on June 21, 2014, 02:57:59 AM
Sorry I made you come up with a song even though I can't listen to it right now! :D don't want to wake a certain sleeping somebody right now and no clue where my headphones are ;o;

xD haha! well when you do, lemme know xD warning, this song is highly addictive o:

I don't have any advice for you, just an apology. I know we have clashed a little in the past - perhaps not as much as some others have - but I didn't realize you were burdened with these feelings, and I truly apologize if I ever contributed to the way you feel about yourself and your situation.

I don't know where you live, and I don't know if it is a possibility, but try to change your location to one where being trans, even openly trans (ie non-passing) is perfectly fine, normal and sort of a who-cares-didn't-notice sort of thing. Or at least visit some of these places... Once you find a community where you are just "you" and your gender is not important and/or taken as you present it without question or comment you might find your transphobia melting away. Although I don't strive to pass, I couldn't imagine living in so many places where I would absolutely be considered outside enough of the norm to be a "freak" in the average person's eyes... that would be tiresome, though I could and have handled it for shorter periods of time. But put me in my favorite places (New Orleans being the number one for me personally, but your mileage may vary), and I am surrounded by love and acceptance.... it may be trite, but (as many gay and lesbian teens can attest I think) if you can change your surroundings, you might get a different outlook.

Quote from: Declan. on June 21, 2014, 03:32:13 AM
I don't have any advice for you, just an apology. I know we have clashed a little in the past - perhaps not as much as some others have - but I didn't realize you were burdened with these feelings, and I truly apologize if I ever contributed to the way you feel about yourself and your situation.

Wow, thank you Declan. That is really sweet of you. I have to be honest, I did get to be sort of intimidated because I really felt that you didn't like me. But, it's not your fault at all. Even then, I completely could understand why you would feel that way, or even just a little irritated--I don't mean to speak for you. I mean, this stuff, I'm really not happy about any of it. I'm really sort of locked in this battle with what I feel vs what I want to feel and maybe know in my heart should be right, but I ultimately waver on everything. I can tend to say things I don't mean or not say what I mean right, just out of the stress of it. And a lot of times I regret what I did say. Even just on susan's... every little thing matters to me a lot. And I care about everyone here, a lot, even if I'm pushing people away, as confusing as that sounds. So I'm really, really sorry if I act kinda crazy sometimes, or say things that are hurtful... and frankly I'm honored that you went out of your way to understand that.  :)

Quote from: sad panda on June 20, 2014, 01:25:06 PM
@luna nyan

You must have been a really smart kid then lol :o

Sort of! *lol*
Was fascinated by health care from a young age, and I did do very well at school without studying much.  The trans stuff - wow - my first exposure was Tim Curry in Rocky horror show!

Back to topic though, I've thought myself trans phobic on occasion.  I look at trans culture, and I go, "That's not me" and the cringe happens - for Aussies, it's kind of like the Aussie cultural cringe.  But in my heart of hearts, I know what I am in my core, and I have to accept it.

Quote from: sad panda on June 21, 2014, 01:15:25 AM
@jess42

Thanks. Just to clarify I meant borderline PD and not bipolar depression, I'm not sure if you thought that or not but just clarifying. I can't even begin to define my moods and my feelings about life because they're so crazily unstable, except yeah... rarely positive.

But anyway, thank you for your positivity. I'm really trying not to just reject everything you said. It's honestly hard for me to take positivity seriously a lot of the time. I'm used to faking positivity just to not be a debbie downer everywhere I go (I am aware that this thread isn't exactly a shining example of that) so I honestly have to stop and really try to process all these positive ideas.

Though, please don't think my life is rainbows and sunshine because I look like a girl. I mean you said you'd trade anything to look like me (I'm sorry but it's hard to even type that because it sounds so wrong to me, I'm just repeating what you said though), but would you trade everything?

Not that I know for sure I would have had a stabler life if I didn't transition... but, since most of my problems moving forward in life are feeling stuck about this trans stuff, yeah I think I would be way better off on almost every count. And again, I wish I could believe people saying I'm pretty but, it just doesn't sound real to me. I'm sorry :-X

Borderline PD? Well I really have no personality disorders other than two distinct personalities. One that is the real me that is on this sight and in private and the other the one I face the real world with face to face people everyday. I have been assured this is psychologically normal by quite a few professionals. I guess it is normal for me but to the extent that the differences between the two is 180 degrees.

Sad panda, no life is all rainbows and sunshine. It is an experience and one hell of a roller coaster ride with many ups and downs and much like a roller coaster the downs are far faster and more than the ups. And the ups just take so long to reach the top.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get at or I might have worded it wrong. I would trade everything to have transitioned young and be as pretty and so on to be able to live as I would love to have lived from a much younger age. And yes Hon, if I could I would take your pain too. I have wrestled with my own demons and have won quite a few battles with them. Whether yours would beat me or not, I can't say. But I have been at the rock bottom more than I would like to have been. I won't lie climbing out is sometimes painful and seemingly impossible, but just from replies to your post there are plenty of people that are throwing you a rope. Hell if I could I would climb down so you could stand on my shoulders to get out. Like I said, rock bottom is nothing new to me.

Don't apologize. Especially for being honest. What life holds for us is a total mystery and sort of like an adventure some positive and some negative. If you think about it, if I took the same route you did and transitioned young I may have been facing the same feelings and problems you are right now. Also if you think about it and would have chosen the path I did, you may be facing some of the problems and negatives that I do now and one of those is regret and another is anger at myself. We just really don't know how things will effect us in the long run but we make choices and we have to do the best we can to try to be the best person that we can be regardless of anything else. We all have demons, we just have to figure out how to beat them.

Quote from: sad panda on June 21, 2014, 04:30:05 AM
Wow, thank you Declan. That is really sweet of you. I have to be honest, I did get to be sort of intimidated because I really felt that you didn't like me. But, it's not your fault at all. Even then, I completely could understand why you would feel that way, or even just a little irritated--I don't mean to speak for you. I mean, this stuff, I'm really not happy about any of it. I'm really sort of locked in this battle with what I feel vs what I want to feel and maybe know in my heart should be right, but I ultimately waver on everything. I can tend to say things I don't mean or not say what I mean right, just out of the stress of it. And a lot of times I regret what I did say. Even just on susan's... every little thing matters to me a lot. And I care about everyone here, a lot, even if I'm pushing people away, as confusing as that sounds. So I'm really, really sorry if I act kinda crazy sometimes, or say things that are hurtful... and frankly I'm honored that you went out of your way to understand that.  :)

I've never disliked you, but I can see why you thought I did - I can be rather crabby and insensitive. What you said makes sense, and there's no need to apologize. Many of us have gone through periods where we push people away and wage wars with ourselves. I doubt even one person would try to blame you for that after reading your posts here.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 21, 2014, 09:08:26 AM
Borderline PD? Well I really have no personality disorders other than two distinct personalities. One that is the real me that is on this sight and in private and the other the one I face the real world with face to face people everyday. I have been assured this is psychologically normal by quite a few professionals. I guess it is normal for me but to the extent that the differences between the two is 180 degrees.

Sad panda, no life is all rainbows and sunshine. It is an experience and one hell of a roller coaster ride with many ups and downs and much like a roller coaster the downs are far faster and more than the ups. And the ups just take so long to reach the top.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get at or I might have worded it wrong. I would trade everything to have transitioned young and be as pretty and so on to be able to live as I would love to have lived from a much younger age. And yes Hon, if I could I would take your pain too. I have wrestled with my own demons and have won quite a few battles with them. Whether yours would beat me or not, I can't say. But I have been at the rock bottom more than I would like to have been. I won't lie climbing out is sometimes painful and seemingly impossible, but just from replies to your post there are plenty of people that are throwing you a rope. Hell if I could I would climb down so you could stand on my shoulders to get out. Like I said, rock bottom is nothing new to me.

Don't apologize. Especially for being honest. What life holds for us is a total mystery and sort of like an adventure some positive and some negative. If you think about it, if I took the same route you did and transitioned young I may have been facing the same feelings and problems you are right now. Also if you think about it and would have chosen the path I did, you may be facing some of the problems and negatives that I do now and one of those is regret and another is anger at myself. We just really don't know how things will effect us in the long run but we make choices and we have to do the best we can to try to be the best person that we can be regardless of anything else. We all have demons, we just have to figure out how to beat them.

Thank you. I want to say more but I think I just need to shut up and listen sometimes without getting negative towards myself. Again, I really appreciate your support.

But I do want to say just, please don't envy me or my situation. I just don't like being envied by older transitioners. No matter what my attitude is... I have a physical disfigurement, you know? It's painful either way, I'm just coping the best I can.

Quote from: Declan. on June 21, 2014, 02:48:37 PMI doubt even one person would try to blame you for that after reading your posts here.

Thank you so much Declan, that really means a lot to me.  :)

Quote from: sad panda on June 21, 2014, 09:35:27 PM
Thank you. I want to say more but I think I just need to shut up and listen sometimes without getting negative towards myself. Again, I really appreciate your support.

But I do want to say just, please don't envy me or my situation. I just don't like being envied by older transitioners. No matter what my attitude is... I have a physical disfigurement, you know? It's painful either way, I'm just coping the best I can.

Thank you so much Declan, that really means a lot to me.  :)

I can understand that sad panda. But Hon, I am nontransitioning. I am trying to do the best with what I got and me too. I'm just trying to cope. I guess what I am more or less trying to do is to find a way both sides can exist in harmony regardless of anything else. It's just something for whatever reason feels like the path I should have traveled. Anyway I am not the perfect male specimen, maybe nature trying to tell me something, and that helps at times with dysphoria. But my choices comes with its own set of problems though. All choices we make do.

One word of advice sad panda. There are enough people in this world that will think negative of you no matter whether you are trans, cis, gay, staight, skinny, fat, beautiful or ugly or a million other things. But you of all people, really shouldn't be thinking negatively about yourself. I have many antifans of myself and way more people could care less about me than do care about me but I could care less. The people that do care about me are the ones that are important to me and me to myself. No one else really matters.

Quote from: sad panda on June 21, 2014, 09:35:27 PM
Thank you. I want to say more but I think I just need to shut up and listen sometimes without getting negative towards myself. Again, I really appreciate your support.

But I do want to say just, please don't envy me or my situation. I just don't like being envied by older transitioners. No matter what my attitude is... I have a physical disfigurement, you know? It's painful either way, I'm just coping the best I can.

Thank you so much Declan, that really means a lot to me.  :)

Darling,
Please allow me to be me. I love you, in all those non romantic ways, but I love you and the pain from your posts is staggering........me.
Transition was so tough for me, and scary because of extreme social, family and religious pressures. It happened anyway, and today I had some slight problems with my memory reaally, but I didn't know that at first. So, instead doubt, self revulsion when it should never ever have been there, started to creep in. I then found this: http://www.bustle.com/articles/7727-im-a-transgender-woman-and-this-is-what-its-like
My original question to myself, and I am a scientist so this is how we think: Why is it estrogen maked me feel sane. Never should I have asked myself that, as there is so much out there, but somehow today I wanted to look that up, to see if what the doctor ever said to me was true. She and I say, Estrogen makes a mtf transgender person feel normal, and even healthy for the first time in their whole lives. I was 66 when I finally caved in, in my mind, to the effects of being transgendered, plus mstical, medically they tell me, and to realease another great secret in my life.
This is next year, and it is amazing how mentally healty I feel for the first time in my life, and that is personal, as more than five psychologists over the years, two with full psychatric exams, have always then and now pronounce me as totally sane. The most recent one, for the Government to issue drugs for being transgendered said, and she/I/Kate is transgendered.
Now, they also said two other things which might help. I am also in a mystical marriage in which He, yes He, asked me and I said YES!, eventually. I also lead my life constantly by what God says I should do, mystically most of the time. THE REASON I SAY THIS, is if you have any issues with The Christian version of God, that God, what they refer to as The God, asked me a transgendered woman, in a mans body, to marry. So, if you have that issue, can you have it now, if you can believe all the civilian experts (Psychologists), and the formal religious test I was put through for this (A fleece type of test), to say it is true.
Now, last week as this sometimes closeted brainiac, (I hide it, from most everyone all of the time. I think I will be rejected by everyone for it.), is delivering her solution to a Ph.D. who outed her that way in front of everyone, I was so sick that day, also, that when I told them they could also use other techiniques in the future to keep me alive, in front of an to the big tough ex marine fighter pilot and my boss I said: but don't let them see my bra. This guy was not told by me yet, the others were. I was so sick that this came out, and also. I don't want them to see my chest. I meant onlookers. The paramedics who were there, of course I don't mean them. This marine says to me. At your age, we will just call it a man bra. Then he adds after I talk about my chest, being larger: At your age we will call them moobs. He meant to others.
I have always incorrectly assessed other's views of my trangenderness as horrid, disgusting, not normal, in my off and unthinking or in my female moments. This is bad, even in those female moments, I was complaining that I look male, there is no guy ever who will see the girl inside of me. The totally straight guy speaks up and says basically, In whose mind only is that true? Yes, in my mind only. How deviant can I get from the truth sometimes? It is large.
Comfotably now, I work looking male and knowing not only do guys see through all this maleness, but they also, even the women, have zero problems with this.
...Katerina.

I had also internalized transphobia :(

What helped me was getting in touch with energy healers. People who do stuff like reiki.

I also had the opportunity to try a psychoactive substance (DMT, in a legal setting) a few times, and it greatly helped me to accept myself.

DISCLAIMER: I would not suggest you try any substances in an illegal setting without the guidance of a professional. Also, there are phony/inexperienced energy workers. If you choose to have a reiki session, you should be able to feel the "electricity," if you don't feel it, you didn't actually get reiki.

Also, I understand some folks might think energy stuff like reiki is pseudo science or bologna. That's cool and I support you having your own beliefs, please reciprocate.

Quote from: jojoglowe on November 29, 2014, 12:50:24 PM
I had also internalized transphobia :(

What helped me was getting in touch with energy healers. People who do stuff like reiki.

I also had the opportunity to try a psychoactive substance (DMT, in a legal setting) a few times, and it greatly helped me to accept myself.

DISCLAIMER: I would not suggest you try any substances in an illegal setting without the guidance of a professional. Also, there are phony/inexperienced energy workers. If you choose to have a reiki session, you should be able to feel the "electricity," if you don't feel it, you didn't actually get reiki.


Also, I understand some folks might think energy stuff like reiki is pseudo science or bologna. That's cool and I support you having your own beliefs, please reciprocate.

Dear Sad Panda,
Even above this, she was able to make progress. That doctor, psychologist, I went to also handled mystical things other than from my perspective it seemed to me, and she totally handled my internalized transphobia. Yet, she totally saw what was in me and with me mystically. She also knew I also loved being a female. If Reiki, works and always in a good way, never a bad way, then it also is really from God, and it is for your benefit and help to be healed, if you need healing. Girls need help we always do.
Transphobia, exists to some extent briefly in many many many transgendered people, and it usually passes as they transition. Mine is almost totally gone. If yours is exceptionally strong and resistant do what you need to in order to defeat this lie. However as you spoke of your future, mine went to zero, in a year and a few months more after transitioning and telling everyone I am trans. Letting those TROLLS exit after revealing themselves, is an amazing experience. Also, noting that TROLLS, in any area of life are TROLLS in all areas of life, excepting in acting and trying to present themselves as perfect loving people to the public, helps. My present inverstment advisor, who wanted nothing ever to do with a certain person, (A  closeted Troll. ), told me he would never ever deal  with this person I am talking about now, who horribly would Troll me, not only on being transgendered but in two other areas of my life also. This investment advisor said, all of my clients are nice and are my friends, I don't need nor want the others, No, I will not deal with that man again. I tried and tried, and was going to really make him take this man back again, until he outed himself to me, Horribly. Then I had to apologize to my investment advisor and handle this 'man' appropriately for his condition.
Trolls are never right, they just tell you they are and expect you to follow and believe them. They are the equivalent of Hitler-wanna-be's. That is an analogy, but horribly accurate.
Hating trans, or hating homosexuals, almost always stems from one source. It is that you are trans, and you don't want to be. Hating homosexuals is the same thing in studies. Some of which were done in emergency situations because some teenagers had done horrors to a homosexual. In that case, they found the teenagers had homosexual feelings, hated them probably, and then when faced with the awful truth of that, attacked the homosexual person who recently gave them those feelings.
Also hating actions is allowed like stealing, hating people is not allowed, you can't hate the thief it is incorrect, you hate the act. Trans is no act, you are no act after transitioning, you cannot hate yourself, you hate the act. If you hate anything regarding being trans, hate what you present as falsely, a guy in a girl's body or a girl in a man's body, for you are not your body in those cases, you are what you are inside, anything else is not true.
So, if that is correct, you are really fighting being disgusted over who you are, when the whole world is not disgusted at all by who you are, if they do not have your problem.
Recently, over and over again, the educated are fascinated by my issue, where I am still not entirely happy with it. I am learning to set aside those wrong emotions, and see myself correctly. When I am totally objective, in my situation, I am accepted and loved by the world and someday because I am a straight transgendered girl, some guy will think I am great and want to marry me for real.
It takes though work to realize I am fine. It is ever so common to think it would be easier, to not be trans and to hate everyone in the world for my horrible situation, when hatred of others for anything, is wrong. Hating, even the world for making me trans can easily morph over to hating myself because I am trans. Remember though, you are only doing that in your down moments, when your emotions take over too much, which also is totally female. In time you will know you are wrong, not only on yourself, but the world. In time you will find the wonders also of being trans, as they are there also, in time also you wil realize that being trans is not the best thing in the world that there could ever be, it has some drawbacks also, but, those drawbacks are just being female, and every female has those same issues.
I don't think I have helped one little bit. I am sorry.
...Katerina.