Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So, my wife came home from work last night, and she started discussing with me the repetitive (and frustrating) topic: what if we can't afford you to transition. Tbh, we aren't in a fantastic financial state right now, but we're working our way out of it.
The plan (deal, whatever you like to call it) was that we would have a second child, and during my wife's pregnancy, I would start my therapy back up.
Part of the problem I have is that a child costs considerably more than the steps I want to take to transition right now. No FFS, NEVER GRS (unless I hit the freakin' lottery), no boob job, planning on doing laser myself with an at home method. So, really, only need therapy, doctor's appointments, and hormones. Honestly, with that, I had roughly calculated it, and it isn't all that expensive in my mind.

We've had this convo several times. She constantly asks me if I'm going to leave if we can't afford to transition, to which I replied no. She says she has dreams, like remodeling the house, or buying a boat. I guess the thing that hurts is that these things are expensive... and to me it comes off as my happiness is second rate to making our house look really nice. I'm not suicidal. My dysphoria is.... hm, "bearable for now." I put it that way, because knowing I can transition sometime in the near future makes it not so bad. But taking that off the table.... the last time that happened, I went downhill quickly. Again, not suicidal, but my work ethic went down, I was very depressed, and I had lost interest in almost everything, even my marriage. Short of suicide, I felt like giving up on life.

I do not want to put my family into bankruptcy. Being female but living on the streets would be a nightmare for me. But... again, putting our house before me.... it sucks. I know my wife has dreams about our house, and things we'd like to do, etc. etc. I just wish that THIS was important to her as well.

Tbh, no, I hadn't thought about what would happen if we couldn't afford it. But, again, my wife constantly tells me that when we can afford it, this is what she'd like to do to the kitchen, and she'd like to close in the garage to make a playroom, etc. etc. And here I sit, a man who can't stand what he looks like, waiting for a woman to appear in the mirror one morning....

Help...

I can't speak for your wife, only she can do that, but from hints in your message it sounds like she wants to make sure you're there for the long haul. Also, changing the house is "nesting behavior". Is she expecting now? These things are for her happiness and she may hope, for yours.

I'd suggest making up a budget, necessities first, then your transition and the house mods as equal priorities, then a little for the boat. Present it to her as a POSSIBLE budget, then negotiate calmly. Calmly EVEN IF she doesn't stay calm.

It sounds like she is one thing in your life you don't want to lose and I fully sympathize with that.

ChelseaAnn

You have my sympathy as does your wife.  I can feel your pain and your frustration.  As a couple you have both your individual dreams and those shared dreams that you have as a couple.

Unless you can talk this through and negotiate an agreement, which you can both live with, there is a risk that your resentment will continue to grow.  Excessive and prolonged resentment rarely ends well.

Not knowing either of you perhaps some time with a relationship counsellor may help.  It sounds like you both need to be heard and respected.  A good therapist will help you develop these skills and improve your relationship.

It's funny now, but for a very long time I unfairly blamed my wife for a lot of my unhappiness.  The real culprit  was closer to home - it was me.   I needed to improve my communication skills and fix myself rather than try to fix my wife or our relationship.  Fixing myself created the possibility of a better relationship.

Hope this helps

Aisla

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 22, 2014, 08:55:28 AM
She says she has dreams, like remodeling the house, or buying a boat. I guess the thing that hurts is that these things are expensive... and to me it comes off as my happiness is second rate to making our house look really nice.

Favoring remodeling and toys over a necessary medical procedure or procedures for a partner? That's messed up. That has to be a devastating hurt that those things matter to her more than your health.

Things like getting professional laser done I found key to becoming the successful woman I am today. So I would include laser as necessary medical and finding a good stylist as necessary medical. Or, since insurance isn't going to pay for those things, necessary expense. It's a big challenge diving into the deep end of the other gender pool later in life. On this forum that last feels like stating the obvious.

Have you told your wife how her priorities make you feel? How the treatments you need are for your very life, not just to have something to show off?

I sort of hear that the "Cost" was figured out in a vacuum, the wife had no input. Nor were the wife's plans discussed in the grand scheme of things by her. I hear a whole lot of denial going on. The wife thinks just a little therapy will 'Fix' things. Life back to normal, perhaps? ChelseaAnn thinking "well I told her____ and she knows what my real plans are". Add in a little the new baby will 'Fix' things also. And to think life is not not going to change with HRT is a tad unrealistic.

I say a whole lot of honest and open talking needs to be done before there is an explosion.

Well, I see your point. I'm not helping things. But my big problem is she keeps asking me what if I have to live my life as is. I dress around house, and go out with friends sometimes. But, my wife is talking about not affording therapy (aka fix it yourself). As far as dressing, there is no point in getting ready at all if I have to go out at all. I can't go out as female, because I have to take my son, and my wife doesn't want me taking him out alone as Chelsea. What's more, she is still uncomfortable going out with me alone.
In short, I don't understand how she honestly can ask me "what if we can't do it?" I mean, I wouldn't leave her... But I may as well go back in the closet. All I would have gained since being in the closet is the ability to go out with friends, and not hide my wardrobe. I hardly think of that as a victory... Am I wrong?

Reading this I think it is pretty clear that she wants you to stay as father and husband and not as her female partner. You will need  a lot of communication to try and change that view but I fear the alternative is separation, I would really have a deep thought about the potential future together and of that of the next child.

I'm very sorry to say that, but I fear it may be the reality.

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 22, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
All I would have gained since being in the closet is the ability to go out with friends, and not hide my wardrobe. I hardly think of that as a victory... Am I wrong?

I don't mean to demean you but do you realize just how many would die for "All that I have gained is...." Like that is huge. Just  dressing around the house is huge. Dressing with your son and wife around is huge.

My wife lives in fear of an unknown future. In fear of me leaving her as the affects of HRT and my personal growth and development continue. Some fear of my life going out of control, as well her's, if I decide to transition now before we are on better financial footings. I live in constant fear of all this hurting her. We both place the others happiness above our own.

If you want more than what you have now, some serious talking needs to be done, now. If you do start HRT even low dose, it will affect how you think and feel. Any promise you make today may get broken if you don't simply keep things as they are, short of perhaps therapy. I've been on/off low dose HRT several times, stopping after my "Brain Reset". Got about 5 years of relief each time, with faking normal guy aided with a monthly or so CD'ing.  With my 3Ds of Diversions, Distractions, and Denial I got a good 30+ year run before the dysphoria hit my like a sledgehammer after the excrement hit the air handler big time in my life

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 22, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
In short, I don't understand how she honestly can ask me "what if we can't do it?" I mean, I wouldn't leave her... But I may as well go back in the closet.

Why wouldn't you leave her?

Quote from: Cindy on June 22, 2014, 06:01:18 PM
I would really have a deep thought about the potential future together and of that of the next child.

I have to agree with Cindy.

I think that you each have a very different and perhaps incompatible view of the future. The fact that you wife wants to remodel the house and have another baby is worrying to me considering that you have huge things on your horizon that have not been discussed in detail yet. It may also be that your wife knows about your situation and has simply shrugged it off in favor of things that she wants, putting you and what you need dead last. There may not even be a stable future in which to raise that baby when all is said and done.

I think that you both need to spend a lot of time discussing things and come to an agreement before either of you takes one more step.

Well, see, we did have an agreement... I honestly didn't want a second kid. The first is very stressful on me, and he's a good little guy in very good health. My wife and I almost split up when I told her that I didn't want a second one. She asked me if there was any way to have a second one.
I thought about it, and told her I would agree to having a second child if I could begin my therapy after she is so many months along. She did agree to that.
Given my estimates, we have paid more in hospital bills for my son's birth (after insurance) than what it would cost for the things I deem necessary for my transition (therapy, hrt, and at home laser). I mean, maybe I'm not seeing something, but I didn't think that was too bad.
It really sucks when SOs don't see how hard this is on us. I mean, if you asked the SO of a cancer patient to pay $4000 so the patient would be cured and not have to suffer ever again, I'm sure 99% of them would go out and max out 2 credit cards. I'm not saying that's what I want to do to my family, but it isn't much of a cost if people really look at it.
Add on things like FFS, or breast augmentation, and especially GRS, then we're talking big money. I could cover what I want to do in 3 paychecks.

Maybe she is just afraid and wants everything to be okay?

It sounds like she doesn't understand what being trans actually means, that it's not a whim or a preference so much as it is a reality you can't wish away.

Most people who transition don't have a lot of money. Some of us save up or use insurance or both to get whatever treatment feels most urgent, but even the brokest transperson usually faces more social hurdles than financial barriers. You need your wife to be supportive of who you are. You have to find a way to make her believe you when you tell her who you are, and you have to decide together how that fits with your future together.

I was a pregnant woman once. After the first few months, I was very keen on everything being okay. The other parent left, but if he had been around I think I would have vociferously objected to transition if he had brought it up. Back then I didn't know what a transsexual was, and all I wanted for us to have a stable home and a good plan going forward. I would have done anything for my fetus and I didn't accept any compromise.

Maybe you can explain to your wife that being who you really are is important for your children? I tried to wait until my kid was an adult, but what finally pushed me to take the plunge was realizing that I was teaching my daughter a shameful lesson by staying closeted. Your kid will grow up in a world full of all sorts of out lgbt people, and you can't keep the existence of people like you a secret even if you manage to keep your orientation a secret. Do you really want your kid to see you as someone who tells lies in order to keep others happy? Have you decided what you will tell your kid once they are an adult? This "problem" doesn't go away. It's okay to decide not to transition, but doing it just for your wife or kids is unhealthy if they aren't told why.

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 23, 2014, 12:23:05 AM
Well, see, we did have an agreement... I honestly didn't want a second kid. The first is very stressful on me, and he's a good little guy in very good health. My wife and I almost split up when I told her that I didn't want a second one. She asked me if there was any way to have a second one.
I thought about it, and told her I would agree to having a second child if I could begin my therapy after she is so many months along. She did agree to that.

I don't get why you're negotiating with your own healthcare as a bargaining chip. I also don't get why you won't let leaving your wife be on the table. Your relationship, and by extension you, sound miserable after all.

As it stands now, your wife has nothing at risk in this situation since you aren't prepared to leave or otherwise prepared to impose consequences on her for saying no. So, being mindful that she cares more about owning a boat than you, what's her motivation to be there for you?

Misato

Not sure if you have been in Chelsea's (Chelsea I apologise for referring to you in the third person on your thread and don't intend to be rude) situation but if you haven't it isn't a simple decision.  When you marry you both commit to each other, take a journey with each other and now one of the parties has a significant change in priorities.  Giving an ultimatum may work but it is a high stakes call and I think that timing is critical.

Having said this I did give an ultimatum to my wife a few months back, but it was more along the lines of "As I don't feel respected, I don't feel that you understand what I am dealing with and that I can't and won't stop HRT, this relationship is not working for me, it is an unhealthy relationship  and we need to discuss our separation.... 24 hours later my wife said that she wanted 'us' to work, that she 'chose us' and wanted to know if I would reconsider.  I agreed and she is now a big supporter and protective of me.   If I had had this conversation 3 years ago when I was first diagnosed as TG then it would have been all over as we hadn't worked the issues or even started the first few steps on our journey.

There is nothing wrong with people changing or reassessing their priorities but if Chelsea or any spouse wishes to keep the relationship it has to be renegotiated.   It is tough enough in an ideal situation but where dysphoria hits hard and fast; where both spouses have not discussed this and it is a surprise to one; where one doesn't understand the distress caused by dysphoria; where expectations/promises/shared dreams are suddenly challenged/threatened etc and the party who hasn't changed really doesn't fully understand just what is happening to them, their family and their relationship; and where treatment options, possible outcomes, objectives, limits etc have not been discussed then the situation is likely to be fraught with emotion and disappointment/hurt/anger etc

If Chelsea isn't invested in the relationship then it may be best to - leave early and respectfully.  If Chelsea is invested then there is a lot of work to do in sharing understanding, resetting expectations and negotiating/agreeing priorities.  Now for some, this is too hard, too difficult and they will move on fairly quickly.   Others will see much promise if they can reset and recommit while addressing the dysphoria and the possibility of full or partial transition.

Having spent the last few years on a similar and currently successful journey it is still inappropriate to overlay my narrative on Chelsea.  This is something which Chelsea and her wife will need to address with appropriate therapist support and truly authentic, respectful and effective  communication.

I wish them both well and I don't presume to advise Chelsea to leave or to stay.  It is Chelsea's call, it is a difficult call and it is even harder to transform a relationship.  However for those of us who have succeeded or given it our best shot we won't die wondering, what if...?

Safe travels

Aisla

Thank you aisla. I did need that.

it is definitely an invested relationship. 9 years. And a 1 year old.
I do believe she cares, but I honestly don't know what I'd do if we couldn't afford it. It honestly isn't much, so idk... As for an ultimatum, I don't give her one because of timing. If I was about to start hrt, and a similar conversation happened, I'd have to question her reasoning behind stopping me.

One of the many things I learned with my transition was I was co-dependent on my partner of then 8 years. I thought losing her would destroy me and I thought losing her couldn't compare to the gains I'd get with transition. I did everything I could to put no pressure on her, going so far as to sign a statement that I would never transition so I made promises to her I couldn't hope to keep and I compromised on things I never should have. I did a lot of damage because I just could be honest with her and tell her what I needed because I was so terrified of losing her.

Happily, we have survived thus far.

But I did have to make myself get to a place where I was prepared to lose her. I had to learn to assert my needs as important. I had to let her fight for our relationship too. That's when things started to get really good between us.

Whatever your reasons for holding on the way you are (Cause I also don't want to presume mine) getting your wife into the thick of matters is important.

I gather I didn't craft my questions well and that I regret. My questions were not intended to drive you two apart, rather, they were to try and find the heart of the ill in the matter as the picture painted was very troubling. As I bristle at the idea of launching into my experiences as I just did above (and I don't think I constrain myself well enough) because I don't like how it feels like I'm "grabbing the mic" as it were to talk about myself when you came here with an issue you're facing.


So, my apologies, and I do wish you and your family the best of luck. But I do also hope you get to take care of your needs soon.

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 22, 2014, 08:55:28 AM
So, my wife came home from work last night, and she started discussing with me the repetitive (and frustrating) topic: what if we can't afford you to transition. Tbh, we aren't in a fantastic financial state right now, but we're working our way out of it.
The plan (deal, whatever you like to call it) was that we would have a second child, and during my wife's pregnancy, I would start my therapy back up.
Part of the problem I have is that a child costs considerably more than the steps I want to take to transition right now. No FFS, NEVER GRS (unless I hit the freakin' lottery), no boob job, planning on doing laser myself with an at home method. So, really, only need therapy, doctor's appointments, and hormones. Honestly, with that, I had roughly calculated it, and it isn't all that expensive in my mind.

We've had this convo several times. She constantly asks me if I'm going to leave if we can't afford to transition, to which I replied no. She says she has dreams, like remodeling the house, or buying a boat. I guess the thing that hurts is that these things are expensive... and to me it comes off as my happiness is second rate to making our house look really nice. I'm not suicidal. My dysphoria is.... hm, "bearable for now." I put it that way, because knowing I can transition sometime in the near future makes it not so bad. But taking that off the table.... the last time that happened, I went downhill quickly. Again, not suicidal, but my work ethic went down, I was very depressed, and I had lost interest in almost everything, even my marriage. Short of suicide, I felt like giving up on life.

I do not want to put my family into bankruptcy. Being female but living on the streets would be a nightmare for me. But... again, putting our house before me.... it sucks. I know my wife has dreams about our house, and things we'd like to do, etc. etc. I just wish that THIS was important to her as well.

Tbh, no, I hadn't thought about what would happen if we couldn't afford it. But, again, my wife constantly tells me that when we can afford it, this is what she'd like to do to the kitchen, and she'd like to close in the garage to make a playroom, etc. etc. And here I sit, a man who can't stand what he looks like, waiting for a woman to appear in the mirror one morning....

Help...

It always disturbs me when children are involved.  Your post is all me me me but what about your child.  This kind of thing can devastate a child yet you sound like you are only concerned about your transition.  If it were me the only thing I'd be concerned about is what is this going to do to my kid.  Of course if it were me I wouldn't force this on a kid until they were grown.  Sorry for the harsh criticism but kids come first. Even at the expense of personal happiness.

Quote from: Amy1988 on June 24, 2014, 06:30:21 PM
It always disturbs me when children are involved.  Your post is all me me me but what about your child.  This kind of thing can devastate a child yet you sound like you are only concerned about your transition.  If it were me the only thing I'd be concerned about is what is this going to do to my kid.  Of course if it were me I wouldn't force this on a kid until they were grown.  Sorry for the harsh criticism but kids come first. Even at the expense of personal happiness.

This post comes off as incredibly transphobic to me.  As if there's something empirically wrong with being trans or transitioning.  Would you care to explain why it is exactly that you think transitioning is harmful to ones children?   I don't have children, but I would have still transitioned if I did.  For me it was a matter of life and death.  If either one of my parents had transitioned when I was growing up, it would have been far better than losing one to an early grave or having them drunk or otherwise emotionally unavailable. 

Big picture...

Quote from: Jill F on June 24, 2014, 07:49:09 PM
This post comes off as incredibly transphobic to me.  As if there's something empirically wrong with being trans or transitioning.  Would you care to explain why it is exactly that you think transitioning is harmful to ones children?   I don't have children, but I would have still transitioned if I did.  For me it was a matter of life and death.  If either one of my parents had transitioned when I was growing up, it would have been far better than losing one to an early grave or having them drunk or otherwise emotionally unavailable. 

Big picture...

You don't think that a child seeing their father turn into a women wouldn't have profound emotional effects? 

 :police:
Everyone, please mind your tone when responding to others, certain blunt statements/questions usually result in the original point going by the wayside and an argument erupting instead. Thanks...
  :police:

I think you both have extremely valid points, but let's please definitely keep an eye on the spicy meter cause it is getting hot hot hot

I think ultimately it depends on the unique situation, everyone is going to have a different best course of action depending on one's individual circumstances- it's impossible to say which would be right or wrong. Depending on the family, things can be completely different in terms of how to manage anything.

To the OP- it seems to me like she maybe does not understand the gravity of gender dysphoria. To me it sounds like she needs more convincing of how much of a necessity it might be for you to seek treatment. Perhaps if you first try to educate her and lay out potential hypothetical results of given scenarios, she might be much more understanding to how dire treating gender dysphoria really is. HRT is considered a medical cure for gender dysphoria. How you outline this and present this to her is of key importance, because if you do it just right then you will have her full support (which is probably what you need and want not only for yourself but also for your children).

Perhaps attending therapy together would be a great way to allow her to understand the medical nature of the predicament. I think this is possibly one of the most helpful things for family members to hear from a doctor- and I believe quite common.

Anyway I hope your journey stays dialed in your favor. Gender dysphoria is no easy battle, and we all know you need as much help as you can get right now. Hopefully you find being here helpful as I did. It surely is a wonderful place here for that reason. Hugs & good luck, Chelsea :)

I don't chime in very often here. And for that I am sorry to all, for this is a shared experience in which we all learn.  It seems to me that you are searching here for what path to take, an equitable solution to your problems. One thing that is fact: The passage of time is merely going to complicate, not simplify. Life becomes harder and more complex as more variables enter into play. With no significant other, the decision becomes rather easy. As time progresses dreams become shared. Children become added to the mix, making the inevitable all that more indecisive.  Whether it is next week, or ten years from now, you will still be transgendered. Do nothing and you make a conscious decision to live your life as such, perhaps in misery, to bring happiness to others. That action will show however in how you carry yourself and ultimately take a toll on you, your inner being, your soul. You are and always will be the same person, only your outward appearance changes. Who you are inside always will remain. Children are pretty resilient; they adapt and bounce back pretty well. Years ago, we would never divorce for the sake of the kids, the damage it would cause. We learned that more often damage was caused by staying together. A little bit of love goes a long way.  Material things are just that: material things. Meaningless objects that can be replaced. Everyone on this planet deserves happiness. Everyone. Everyone on this planet deserves dignity. Everyone. These are basic human rights.  I'd share my story with you, but this is about you. Transitioning isn't always easy. It's a real test of courage, perseverance and will. There's a lot of collateral damage. Lots of tears and soul searching. I think you know your path here. I'm here to tell you that you'll be okay.

Quote from: Felix on June 23, 2014, 01:11:28 AM

Maybe you can explain to your wife that being who you really are is important for your children? I tried to wait until my kid was an adult, but what finally pushed me to take the plunge was realizing that I was teaching my daughter a shameful lesson by staying closeted. Your kid will grow up in a world full of all sorts of out lgbt people, and you can't keep the existence of people like you a secret even if you manage to keep your orientation a secret. Do you really want your kid to see you as someone who tells lies in order to keep others happy? Have you decided what you will tell your kid once they are an adult? This "problem" doesn't go away. It's okay to decide not to transition, but doing it just for your wife or kids is unhealthy if they aren't told why.

This exactly. I have the kids, and I keep playing the "I'll wait till their grown" game.  But that's not fair. I'd you teach your children to hide who they are, and that is not normal by hiding yourself, you are planting those seeds. I don't care if my child is a boy, girl, non binary, gay straight bi pansexual asexual,  I want them to be comfortable with themselves, and the only way that can happen is if we are comfortable with ourselves.

Quote from: SandraB on June 25, 2014, 09:53:53 AM
I don't chime in very often here. And for that I am sorry to all, for this is a shared experience in which we all learn.  It seems to me that you are searching here for what path to take, an equitable solution to your problems. One thing that is fact: The passage of time is merely going to complicate, not simplify. Life becomes harder and more complex as more variables enter into play. With no significant other, the decision becomes rather easy. As time progresses dreams become shared. Children become added to the mix, making the inevitable all that more indecisive.  Whether it is next week, or ten years from now, you will still be transgendered. Do nothing and you make a conscious decision to live your life as such, perhaps in misery, to bring happiness to others. That action will show however in how you carry yourself and ultimately take a toll on you, your inner being, your soul. You are and always will be the same person, only your outward appearance changes. Who you are inside always will remain. Children are pretty resilient; they adapt and bounce back pretty well. Years ago, we would never divorce for the sake of the kids, the damage it would cause. We learned that more often damage was caused by staying together. A little bit of love goes a long way.  Material things are just that: material things. Meaningless objects that can be replaced. Everyone on this planet deserves happiness. Everyone. Everyone on this planet deserves dignity. Everyone. These are basic human rights.  I'd share my story with you, but this is about you. Transitioning isn't always easy. It's a real test of courage, perseverance and will. There's a lot of collateral damage. Lots of tears and soul searching. I think you know your path here. I'm here to tell you that you'll be okay.

"Children are pretty resilient; they adapt and bounce back pretty well"

Yes to normal things that pop up in life but not when dad becomes a women.  That's something most kids are not going to be able to adjust to.  Just imagine your own father in a dress, make up high heel shoes. It's a very disturbing thought.  Even as an adult I could not even imagine that.  I'm sorry for being blunt but kids are too important to gamble with their emotional well being.

Quote from: Amy1988 link=topic=167589."Childrmsg1458299#msg1458299 date=1403714139

Yes to normal things that pop up in life but not when dad becomes a women.  That's something most kids are not going to be able to adjust to.  Just imagine your own father in a dress, make up high heel shoes. It's a very disturbing thought.  Even as an adult I could not even imagine that.  I'm sorry for being blunt but kids are too important to gamble with their emotional well being.

Love is unconditional. If you don't, or can't grasp that concept, allow me to break it down quite simply for you. It means without condition.  Just as our parents when each and every one of us came out. Some were able to adjust, some were not. It's not what we were raised as, but what we are. And again, unconditional love.  Love is much more important to children, perhaps only secondary to food. My own children, although now adults, are at this very moment imagining their own father in a dress. One has seen that already, a couple more may see that very sight in a matter of weeks; one may never. (Actually, I don't really like dresses all that much, but one is getting married in Jan. and I will have to wear one then). How they deal with it is up to them. One has quite well. Two are coming along. The other may never. But while we're being blunt, let me be forthright, blunt also: I am proud of who I am. I don't try to hide myself. I'm also a bigot, by definition. For I hate bigots, they nauseate me. They reuse to be educated, feel that they know all there is to know, are very narrow minded and spew there hate and misunderstanding of what is. Their only saving grace is that their numbers are dying off as they themselves die off and the world, as society changes and progresses towards more tolerant people.
For myself, I have nothing more to say.

Quote from: SandraB on June 25, 2014, 12:09:44 PM
Love is unconditional. If you don't, or can't grasp that concept, allow me to break it down quite simply for you. It means without condition.  Just as our parents when each and every one of us came out. Some were able to adjust, some were not. It's not what we were raised as, but what we are. And again, unconditional love.  Love is much more important to children, perhaps only secondary to food. My own children, although now adults, are at this very moment imagining their own father in a dress. One has seen that already, a couple more may see that very sight in a matter of weeks; one may never. (Actually, I don't really like dresses all that much, but one is getting married in Jan. and I will have to wear one then). How they deal with it is up to them. One has quite well. Two are coming along. The other may never. But while we're being blunt, let me be forthright, blunt also: I am proud of who I am. I don't try to hide myself. I'm also a bigot, by definition. For I hate bigots, they nauseate me. They reuse to be educated, feel that they know all there is to know, are very narrow minded and spew there hate and misunderstanding of what is. Their only saving grace is that their numbers are dying off as they themselves die off and the world, as society changes and progresses towards more tolerant people.
For myself, I have nothing more to say.

No love is not unconditional.  If you believe that then you are not living in reality.  There is no such thing as true unconditional love.  If it were, human beings would be perfect which they are not.   human beings are really all about themselves.

Hi. You said SO input was welcome, so I hope you don't mind.

My spouse is currently questioning, and for me just knowing that he has the question has been terrifying. I've had multiple emotional breakdowns where I cry and beg him to figure it out already because the ambiguity feels like too much to handle; other days,  I am calm and remember that he is still here, he will always be the same personality and person, that the wrapping paper is less important than the gift inside. But overall, I'm just as confused as he is. I've done a lot of research and education on what it must be like for him, but I can't truly know beyond anecdotal evidence. I don't think your wife is trying to be any more selfish than you are; she is in denial that this is happening right now and nothing she wants to do will stop it from happening. Everyone goes into a marriage with some sort of "plan" for the future, and to one day find out or be told that that happy little imaginary path is not the one that you are going to take is, in short, terrifying. Myself and a lot of the other SOs that I have met online and in support groups struggle with the ambiguity of the situation, and the idea that "I don't REALLY know you." It's uncomfortable, and it does not mean that your feelings or experiences are invalidated. But, sometimes it feels like as an SO who is in love with someone who isn't really in love with himself, we are supposed to stand strong and stoic and just...wait. It's really, really, really hard to wait. It seems like you wife is struggling to make sense out of what seems like chaos, and by making plans about remodeling or having a baby, it gives her a sense of order and concrete future. It's not going to be easy for her, because it isn't easy for anyone on either side, and it still isn't even close to being easy for me, but she is going to have pull up a chair in ambiguity land. I applaud her that she is at a place that she's not freaking out about your dressing, because even that little change of clothes can be a complete shockeroo and emotional trigger for a lot of people. Would she consider going to a counselor to talk about her emotions and her fears? It really helps find balance and footing.

Amy, I am sorry, but I have seen some of your posts before, and I believe you have responded to one of my topics before. Are you a supportive member or not? All of your posts on this topic are first of all not advice, simply"you can not transition because you have a child". I would wonder how many members on here would hear this and laugh at you, as many have had success with their children.
honestly, you sound like my in laws. They told me that"marriages in this situation never work, we did our research". Yet some of the most known trans people survived this.
Honestly, "children come first". I have someone you should contact to maybe get a little perspective, and to get off the view I believe Jill is correct about: Jennifer Boylan. If you don't know her, she is a transwoman who transitioned when her two boys were young. She is still married to her wife, and both of her sons love her. So I ask you, what exactly happened to you that you are so set on this view that people can't transition if they have children? You keep trying to make this point, but the evidence of the contrary is all around you on this site.
seriously, contact Jennifer boylan. Or read her books. But otherwise, if you're not going to help, just for all our sakes, STOP.
Everyone else, thanks for your input. My wife and I talked and she is still supportive of me transitioning. It was just a misunderstanding.

Quote from: Amy1988 on June 24, 2014, 06:30:21 PM
It always disturbs me when children are involved.  Your post is all me me me but what about your child.  This kind of thing can devastate a child yet you sound like you are only concerned about your transition.  If it were me the only thing I'd be concerned about is what is this going to do to my kid.  Of course if it were me I wouldn't force this on a kid until they were grown.  Sorry for the harsh criticism but kids come first. Even at the expense of personal happiness.

My son is having no problem with it at all. Even the Therapist says he is doing well so until you are a parent maybe these kind of statements should be avoided in the future. Questioning it is OK, judgment is not. My kids were the first one's who I made sure were mentally prepared. As for unconditional love, yes it does exist and when you get some life experience you will learn this is very true. In my career I risked my life literally for people I did not know at all and I did it because all human life is valuable. In the ambulance and helicopter I worked myself to death to make sure all could survive and see their family members once again. Why did I do this? Unconditional love. :)

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 25, 2014, 02:08:12 PM
Amy, I am sorry, but I have seen some of your posts before, and I believe you have responded to one of my topics before. Are you a supportive member or not? All of your posts on this topic are first of all not advice, simply"you can not transition because you have a child". I would wonder how many members on here would hear this and laugh at you, as many have had success with their children.
honestly, you sound like my in laws. They told me that"marriages in this situation never work, we did our research". Yet some of the most known trans people survived this.
Honestly, "children come first". I have someone you should contact to maybe get a little perspective, and to get off the view I believe Jill is correct about: Jennifer Boylan. If you don't know her, she is a transwoman who transitioned when her two boys were young. She is still married to her wife, and both of her sons love her. So I ask you, what exactly happened to you that you are so set on this view that people can't transition if they have children? You keep trying to make this point, but the evidence of the contrary is all around you on this site.
seriously, contact Jennifer boylan. Or read her books. But otherwise, if you're not going to help, just for all our sakes, STOP.
Everyone else, thanks for your input. My wife and I talked and she is still supportive of me transitioning. It was just a misunderstanding.

I can't be supportive when kids are involved.  Jennifer Boylan is one person.  You can't look at a few exceptions and conclude that no kids are ever negatively effected by seeing a parent change genders.  I think a lot of transgender people who have young children are so self absorbed they can't see the potential harm and want everyone around them to enforce the denial.  I know that sounds harsh but I'm going speak on behalf of the kids.  I also find it strange that I'm the only one here who seems concerned about the kids. 

Quote from: Amy1988 on June 25, 2014, 04:17:05 PM
  I think a lot of transgender people who have young children are so self absorbed they can't see the potential harm and want everyone around them to enforce the denial. 

I am going to be as delicate as I can here, but how can you say this at all? You are constantly on here wanting an orchie even if you have to do it yourself. How is your Dysphoria any different from ours? Your desire for an orchie is just as bad as ours to transition. You are willing to risk your life for it. This is plain hypocritical, period. I see all kinds of people with kids posting saying they are doing very well with it.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 25, 2014, 04:22:43 PM
I am going to be as delicate as I can here, but how can you say this at all? You are constantly on here wanting an orchie even if you have to do it yourself. How is your Dysphoria any different from ours? Your desire for an orchie is just as bad as ours to transition. You are willing to risk your life for it. This is plain hypocritical, period. I see all kinds of people with kids posting saying they are doing very well with it.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 25, 2014, 04:22:43 PM
I am going to be as delicate as I can here, but how can you say this at all? You are constantly on here wanting an orchie even if you have to do it yourself. How is your Dysphoria any different from ours? Your desire for an orchie is just as bad as ours to transition. You are willing to risk your life for it. This is plain hypocritical, period. I see all kinds of people with kids posting saying they are doing very well with it.

The difference is I don't have kids.  My transition only effects me. 

Quote from: Amy1988 on June 25, 2014, 05:16:55 PM
The difference is I don't have kids.  My transition only effects me.

I have kids and they are doing very well. So your transition does not affect your parents, grandparents, friends, work associates, etc?

Quote from: SandraB on June 25, 2014, 09:53:53 AM
Whether it is next week, or ten years from now, you will still be transgendered. Do nothing and you make a conscious decision to live your life as such, perhaps in misery

THIS! Yes!

Like I said everyone has a unique circumstance, with one exception... We will always be trans no matter what we do, and we all know how much of a damper it can put on life if you try to ignore it or "cope". Full transition may not be right for everyone, but chances are if you want to now you will only want it more and more and more. It is at that point you put not only yourself at great risk but also everyone you are connected to.. Kids would be no exception.

A good friend of mine has a transgendered MtF parent. I would have never guessed it. She is just as fun and loving as any other girl :)

Quote from: Amy1988 on June 25, 2014, 04:17:05 PM
I can't be supportive when kids are involved.  Jennifer Boylan is one person.  You can't look at a few exceptions and conclude that no kids are ever negatively effected by seeing a parent change genders.  I think a lot of transgender people who have young children are so self absorbed they can't see the potential harm and want everyone around them to enforce the denial.  I know that sounds harsh but I'm going speak on behalf of the kids.  I also find it strange that I'm the only one here who seems concerned about the kids.

I know a couple who live in rural western Maryland, AKA the boonies. Pretty much an identical situation as ChelseaAnne. They had a 2 or 3 y/o and one on the way when the T-Bomb got dropped. 3 years later they are still together, the eldest is fine, the youngest was barely born when transition occured.

I too am.... concerned. At first I too was horrified hearing what was going on. Very young kids seem to be quite resiliant. Society didn't beat the life out of them yet. Older kids will likely have issues and is proven so all too often as testimony here on Susan's will attest to

It just goes to show that every family has it's own unique circumstance. There is no way to predict what will work well for the kids and what will not. It all depends on the personalities, location, visibility of parental units, and familial love.

I think it's okay that Amy has a strong viewpoint on this topic, it is by no means "wrong" or unjust to say. But perhaps a little bit discouraging.

ChelseaAnn- I still think it would be smart for you AND your wife to seek therapy together at some point. I have a feeling that if she registers the medical nature of the gender dysphoria condition she might be much more understanding of the ramifications of trying to ignore it or sweep it under the rug / letting it fester.

Quote from: Jennygirl on June 25, 2014, 06:13:59 PM
I think it's okay that Amy has a strong viewpoint on this topic

I agree until it leads to condemnation of those of us with children. Blanket statements against parents with kids as a whole is not healthy or cannot lead to a meaningful dialog on the subject.  :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 25, 2014, 06:20:25 PM
I agree until it leads to condemnation of those of us with children. Blanket statements against parents with kids as a whole is not healthy or cannot lead to a meaningful dialog on the subject.  :)

Yeah I agree, I do see her point though. It will certainly not make things any easier to have kids to factor in, but in many cases it's inevitable because kids are forever. We have to do the best with what we have- and that is why I agree with you. There is a difference between being cautious and being unsupportive- it seems to be a fine line. I'm not sure that what Amy is saying is necessarily unsupportive, perhaps a bit... I would like for Amy to truly hypothetically place herself in the shoes of a parent and imagine what that would be like considering the urge to be witnessed as one's true self is so intense & unchanging.

Quote from: Jennygirl on June 25, 2014, 06:24:49 PM
I would like for Amy to truly hypothetically place herself in the shoes of a parent and imagine what that would be like considering the urge to be witnessed as one's true self is so intense & unchanging.

I think she will get there with more life experience. Things while black and white as a young person drift into more gray area's as we age.  :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 25, 2014, 06:29:24 PM
I think she will get there with more life experience. Things while black and white as a young person drift into more gray area's as we age.  :)

I can definitely feel that happening to myself as well :) It's actually a nice feeling.

Though I have been pretty tolerant and hopeful my entire life!

Quote from: Amy1988 on June 25, 2014, 05:16:55 PM

The difference is I don't have kids.  My transition only effects me.

I'm in the same situation. There were no kids, no spouse to deal with my transition. And it's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of those who do have a spouse and kids going through transition.

But people give kids too little credit, especially younger ones. Everybody said divorce was terrible for kids. And sure, when my parents divorced, I was upset. I acted out, cried, etc. But that temporary pain I experienced was better than the alternative. My parents were not happy together. It really was better for all involved. And I think if my mother or father transitioned when I was a kid, I would be upset. There may be some embarrassment and confusion. And it'd be something to cope with. A child looks up to its father, so revelation that he is a woman could be troubling. But I love my father. And if he was struggling with this, I really wouldn't want him to suppress himself for me. Really.

And also - every adult child comes to realize that their parents are human. That they are human beings with their own issues and faults and deserve happiness. So, while I think there may be some pain and confusion and possibly embarrassment  in the beginning, most kids come to understand this soon enough. And see their parents as human beings who have the right to be happy. We're all just human after all.

Quote from: Amy1988 on June 25, 2014, 05:16:55 PM
The difference is I don't have kids.  My transition only effects me.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Yes, you don't have kids, but you are in the same boat as the rest of us. Your transition does not affect "just you." It affects your friends, your parents, your coworkers, every person you meet on a semi-daily basis, the cashier at the coffee shop, the person at the mall who figures out you are not a cos girl, your future spouse / SO when you have to tell them your past... The list goes on. So no, do not act like you're better than us because you don't involve kids. One day you will. Whether it be your own, your SO's, your nieces or nephews, a friends child, the kids in your neighborhood, whatever. Just because they are not biologically yours doesn't make the effect different.

While I understand your feelings, they have gotten to the point of shoving them down our throats. Honestly, what makes transitioning with children different than divorcing with children, or having to tell a child a parent was killed? What about parents who spend money to go back to college, or those who move across the country when their children have friends they won't ever see again? You say kids are resilient to "normal events." In today's world, define what's normal. In the 1900s, it was normal to have 6 kids. But we're all ok having two, one, or no siblings.

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 23, 2014, 12:23:05 AM
Well, see, we did have an agreement... I honestly didn't want a second kid. The first is very stressful on me, and he's a good little guy in very good health. My wife and I almost split up when I told her that I didn't want a second one. She asked me if there was any way to have a second one.
I thought about it, and told her I would agree to having a second child if I could begin my therapy after she is so many months along. She did agree to that.

Yikes! What an awful situation... if your wife isn't pregnant yet, please think and perhaps put on the brakes before she is... it is not good at all to bargain a child for your wife in exchange for therapy! Just had to throw this in there after reading that statement.

But as for your whole situation, to me it seems like your wife is trying to find some sort of loophole so that you won't have to transition. Makes me think of when my gf wants to go somewhere and I really don't wanna go, I'm like 'yeahhhh... but actually we could do this and this over here and this would be more fun in the long run...yesssss?'.. kinda trying to feel her out and find a way out of it. Sorry she's not totally on board with transition... but try to make it clear to her that this is a NECESSITY. Not a want like house upgrades. If she wants you around hers and yalls childs life, transition is needed.

And I agree with other sentiments.. kids can deal with a lot more than adults realize or give them credit for. It's pretty awful to say that parents should live a lie- which leads to suicidal behavior, depression, etc.--- obviously worse for the child than transition. Kids like happy, healthy parents. That is what matters. And as a person who is also kid-less, I don't think I can understand the devotion parents feel towards their children- but I do know that it is there... I can't imagine any parent would think only of themselves when transitioning. Happiness and sanity matter more than presentation.

But truly, I would like to know what 'harm' comes to children who see a parent transition, Amy? Imo it is more harmful to tell children that because you are born with 'x' between your legs, you must be 'a', never 'b'! Better to show them that it's okay to be yourself, always, no matter what, just like mommy or daddy :)

Oooh ooh, and also- since people are saying transition effects everyone around them, I'd beg to differ. It only effects people who a). Don't understand or b). don't accept. I don't understand why changing appearance/presentation would have an effect on anyone other than the one who is changing? Perhaps I am ignorant, and if so- please inform me. I like learning. :)

Yeah, our culture has sort of turned into 'won't anyone please think of the children?!?' But shielding children from life doesn't do them any favors. When has it ever? I mean, trans people exist, gay people exist, etc. Trying to insulate them from people who are 'different' doesn't help. It's better that they understand people are different. Bigotry stems from ignorance.

I think we forget what a clear palette children start out with. Most kids have no idea that being trans is strange or bad if you don't act like it is strange or bad. They don't add all this baggage that the rest of us usually seem to carry with the topic.

As someone who works with elementary school children, I will say kids are pretty resilient. They don't get enough credit. Child development isn't as cookie cutter as, "omg they will be scared for life". If you take the proper steps to educate a child about the transition, kids will develop understanding and not harmed. I heard similar things about gay/lesbian couples raising children, and look where we are now. Major life changes within a family work different among ages. You won't be talking to a 5 year old about changes within family dynamic in the same way you talk to a 12 year old. Heck, even an 8 year old. I suggest you to read up on some child psychology articles (i specialized more in adolescent development, so my concentration is on 10 - 19 year olds) to learn more about how, in reality, we adults tend to put fears within our own heads.

As there's nothing wrong with being trans, I don't see why kids would need to be "protected" from us or why anyone wouldn't transition with kids in the picture.  I mean, I would imagine the ability to be a good parent would be hampered because of the distraction of being a trans* person out of treatment and because of the guilt and discomfort they feel toward trans* people that this sentiment betrays.

So I would ask Amy: Why do you think being trans or cross dressing is, to use your word from earlier, disturbing? I also hope your find peace with yourself soon.

I struggled with this idea that I need to protect my children from my dysphoria and wait till they were grown to transition BUT, after much research and consulting an LBGT friendly child psychologist, I decided that I would be doing my kids a disservice. They take their cues from us. If we teach them that being born with the wrong parts is somehow shameful,  they will grow up thinking that. If you show your children that it is truly okay to be yourself no matter what that means, they will grow up believing that. The decisions we make in our adult lives have a profound effect on our kids. As an unrelated example, my mother worked a job she hated my entire life. She absolutely hated her job and it affected her at home as well. I would have rather gone without than have a parent who was miserable. Your kids will know you aren't happy. They will know something is wrong. And as an adult child of parents who swept their needs aside till I was grown I can say, they will resent you for your unhappiness during their childhood.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 25, 2014, 05:20:38 PM
I have kids and they are doing very well. So your transition does not affect your parents, grandparents, friends, work associates, etc?

Doesn't matter.  They are adults.

Quote from: JoanneB on June 25, 2014, 06:05:39 PM
I know a couple who live in rural western Maryland, AKA the boonies. Pretty much an identical situation as ChelseaAnne. They had a 2 or 3 y/o and one on the way when the T-Bomb got dropped. 3 years later they are still together, the eldest is fine, the youngest was barely born when transition occured.

I too am.... concerned. At first I too was horrified hearing what was going on. Very young kids seem to be quite resiliant. Society didn't beat the life out of them yet. Older kids will likely have issues and is proven so all too often as testimony here on Susan's will attest to

Again one example but you really don't know what is going through their mind really.  I just believe that kids happiness and well being come before parents.  Why risk that when it can be easily avoided. 

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 25, 2014, 07:25:01 PM
Sorry, but you are wrong. Yes, you don't have kids, but you are in the same boat as the rest of us. Your transition does not affect "just you." It affects your friends, your parents, your coworkers, every person you meet on a semi-daily basis, the cashier at the coffee shop, the person at the mall who figures out you are not a cos girl, your future spouse / SO when you have to tell them your past... The list goes on. So no, do not act like you're better than us because you don't involve kids. One day you will. Whether it be your own, your SO's, your nieces or nephews, a friends child, the kids in your neighborhood, whatever. Just because they are not biologically yours doesn't make the effect different.

While I understand your feelings, they have gotten to the point of shoving them down our throats. Honestly, what makes transitioning with children different than divorcing with children, or having to tell a child a parent was killed? What about parents who spend money to go back to college, or those who move across the country when their children have friends they won't ever see again? You say kids are resilient to "normal events." In today's world, define what's normal. In the 1900s, it was normal to have 6 kids. But we're all ok having two, one, or no siblings.

All adults. Not the same thing.  Adults can deal with it.  Kids are a different situation.

 :police: Ok , we are not going here today. Transphobic and intolerant statements are only causing more hurt to the community. It will not be allowed. This topic had settled down and will not be allowed to inflame again today. :police:

Yeah, I agree. You just can't change some people's mindsets.

Can a mod lock this thread? It's long lost its original discussion.

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 26, 2014, 12:47:23 PM
Yeah, I agree. You just can't change some people's mindsets.

Can a mod lock this thread? It's long lost its original discussion.

I'm so sorry this happened. 

Bug hugs and all the support in the world,
Jill

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 26, 2014, 12:47:23 PM
Yeah, I agree. You just can't change some people's mindsets.

Can a mod lock this thread? It's long lost its original discussion.

I'm sorry. You should be able to ask questions without it getting out of hand. Best wishes.

Per OP request topic is locked. Thank you for your patience ChelseaAnn!  :)