Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Quote from: Wendy on July 25, 2007, 11:47:51 PM
Females question everything.  Males just say come on let's get it done. ;)

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 26, 2007, 07:27:31 AM
i'm already bad at math  :laugh:

This is just my observation.  I find these kind of statements interesting coming from TS.  To be honest, these kind of statements are just generalizations and since every person is an individual, you *will* find exceptions to any rule.  In other words, there ARE going to be males who question everything and females that just say "Come on let's get it done."  You will find some females excellent at math (including myself, plus I knew quite a few growing up) and some males terrible at it.  Just because someone tends to fall into certain stereotypes does not alone make them male/female.

I know with HRT, the brain actually changes.  You can feel the changes taking place.  You know you start thinking differently the longer you are on it.  I honestly cannot choose a poll answer to this question, because I honestly am not sure of a good answer.  On one hand I have always identified as female and many of my thought processes fell into a line that was typically female.  But I also had thought processes that fell into a male line of thinking (i.e. I was direct, saw women sexually, tended to be more selfish, etc.).  This is one reason I took such an introspective look at myself when I was at the beginning of transition.  I found there's was also a lot of male thought processes I didn't posses (valuing genitals, instincts, adapting to the role of a pursuer, etc.)  The fact that I identified as female was what made all the difference. 

So, I took the leap and transitioned.  Since going fulltime, I have been SO much happier living as a woman.  I can function so much better once again with the dysphoria so diminished.  Getting rid of the male thought processes was largely a mental exercise to change how I thought--in fact, many changes came immediately just through self acceptance.  HRT had reshaped my thought processes as I've gone along.  I've had many people tell me they see my aura and the way I go about life largely as female (which is very encouraging).

I can use my memories of certain ways I thought to help me understand the male mind better.  I still question how strong those processes were as a male and how much I deluded myself about that.  Another aspect to consider is that the younger a person transitions and starts HRT, the more dramatic the physical changes are.  I believe the same thing happens with the brain.  Statistically, many older MTFs may still act largely male (which I personally believe is a combination of brain development and living in the role longer).  It still makes sense and as anyone who has been on HRT for a long time could attest to, the mental changes you go through are much more dramatic than the external changes and they are also more than you would ever imagine beforehand.

So, there is evidence to support both theories.  I would theorize that we begin with a brain structure closer to out target gender than a cisgender person, but not a completely developed brain of the target gender.  If we started with brains fully developed of the target gender, then in theory, there would be either little or no mental changes from HRT.

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 08:36:11 AM
If we started with brains fully developed of the target gender, then in theory, there would be either little or no mental changes from HRT.

I've still yet to see any evidence that supports the 'mental' changes from HRT. Now whether certain brain matter 'looks' different after HRT is still up for debate.
Most of the studies and articles I've read on HRT strongly suggest that any 'mental' changes on HRT are most likely the result of depression and dysphoria lifted from finally living in your correct role. I concede that estrogen makes one more emotional, if that's what you meant by your statement.

Not to challenge you personally or anything, but if you didn't 'think' like a woman prior to HRT, what did you think like?

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 09:11:35 AM

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 08:36:11 AM
If we started with brains fully developed of the target gender, then in theory, there would be either little or no mental changes from HRT.

I've still yet to see any evidence that supports the 'mental' changes from HRT. Now whether certain brain matter 'looks' different after HRT is still up for debate.
Most of the studies and articles I've read on HRT strongly suggest that any 'mental' changes on HRT are most likely the result of depression and dysphoria lifted from finally living in your correct role. I concede that estrogen makes one more emotional, if that's what you meant by your statement.

Not to challenge you personally or anything, but if you didn't 'think' like a woman prior to HRT, what did you think like?

Nero, unless you have been on HRT, you would not understand.  I am not not referring to studies at all, but rather a consensus of observations of a number of TS people who have been on HRT long term.  As I said in my prior post:

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 08:36:11 AM
...as anyone who has been on HRT for a long time could attest to, the mental changes you go through are much more dramatic than the external changes and they are also more than you would ever imagine beforehand.

Also, I DID describe how I thought.  I knew I was female and I knew that I didn't possess the impetus to behave like a typical male, yet I did have it to behave like a typical female.  If anything, I may have acted like a very feminine male, but a lot of it was both acting and trying to take advantage of expectations of my role.  Anybody who has been around on Susans the entire time I have, has seen me go through the HRT induced mental changes.  A change in sexuality is one example of the changes.  Anyhow, I get along much better with other women than I ever did with men.  Some mental changes I went through include: I tend to consider other's feeling more than I did before.  I can cry now.  I am much more social.  I am much more verbose in my responses to people.  I'm sure there are many more to come.

At least I'm being honest.  I bet most people (regardless of observational evidence) would not admit that they had any thoughts or behaviors of their birth gender.

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 09:26:26 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 09:11:35 AM

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 08:36:11 AM
If we started with brains fully developed of the target gender, then in theory, there would be either little or no mental changes from HRT.

I've still yet to see any evidence that supports the 'mental' changes from HRT. Now whether certain brain matter 'looks' different after HRT is still up for debate.
Most of the studies and articles I've read on HRT strongly suggest that any 'mental' changes on HRT are most likely the result of depression and dysphoria lifted from finally living in your correct role. I concede that estrogen makes one more emotional, if that's what you meant by your statement.

Not to challenge you personally or anything, but if you didn't 'think' like a woman prior to HRT, what did you think like?

Nero, unless you have been on HRT, you would not understand.  I am not not referring to studies at all, but rather a consensus of observations of a number of TS people who have been on HRT long term.  As I said in my prior post:

Oh Ok. You're the expert here. ::)
I've never taken HRT, but know women personally who have. A relative taking androgens for a medical condition, and a woman with a hormone disorder which causes HUGE amounts of testosterone to flood her system. Neither reported feeling any differently or acting any differently other than a huge increase in libido. Both had had normal levels before they developed the conditions.
That's why I've been saying this. The latter woman with hormone disorder cracked up at all the questions and assumptions I had had about testosterone. I interrogated her for details once I learned of her condition as you can imagine.
That and there is no evidence to back up the claim that HRT 'changes' your mind to the other sex.

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 09:26:26 AMSome mental changes I went through include: I tend to consider other's feeling more than I did before.  I can cry now.  I am much more social.  I am much more verbose in my responses to people.  I'm sure there are many more to come.

This 'evidence' you cited is all emotional stuff, just as I said. A surge in estrogen levels does make one more in touch with their emotions or whatever. As any woman who's ever had PMS will attest to.
So, if this is all you meant, you're correct.

I agree with Melissa. I am much more emotional after I've gotten on hormones. I also communicate in a more feminine way, for example, I would use phrases like "I don't think" before I say something, because the feminine way of talking  is less confrontational. I can definitely see a mental change going on,, I couldn't talk or act the way I do now before I was on HRT. The way I act toward men has definately changed alot. (although I was always very feminine, but not *like* this)

I really don't know if TS process the brain of their target sex. From reading some of the comments here, I really have to disagree. There are probably a lot of females who has a *masculine* brain and a lot of males with a *feminine* brain, I think it is ridiculous to suggest that women are this way and men are that way, although there is certainly truths to some of the stereotypes about men and women, I like to think that humans are much more diverse and unique and do not always act according to the stereotypes.


If you see people like Madonna, she is not very feminine in a lot of ways. She is confrontational, she is direct, she is dominating and she makes sure people know exactly what she wants. There has to be feminine guys who are more feminine than Madonna.

Saying that men have to be this way and women have to be that way because they are just people with different brain sounds a bit like biological essentialism.

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 26, 2007, 07:27:31 AM
i'm already bad at math  :laugh:

So is my son.

But both of my daughters are math stars.  And when I was in college the first time, 2/3 of us math majors were girls.  (And no, we were not studying to be teachers.)   >:D

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 26, 2007, 10:02:23 AM
I agree with Melissa. I am much more emotional after I've gotten on hormones. I also communicate in a more feminine way, for example, I would use phrases like "I don't think" before I say something, because the feminine way of talking  is less confrontational. I can definitely see a mental change going on,, I couldn't talk or act the way I do now before I was on HRT. The way I act toward men has definately changed alot. (although I was always very feminine, but not *like* this)

I really don't know if TS process the brain of their target sex. From reading some of the comments here, I really have to disagree. There are probably a lot of females who has a *masculine* brain and a lot of males with a *feminine* brain, I think it is ridiculous to suggest that women are this way and men are that way, although there is certainly truths to some of the stereotypes about men and women, I like to think that humans are much more diverse and unique and do not always act according to the stereotypes.


If you see people like Madonna, she is not very feminine in a lot of ways. She is confrontational, she is direct, she is dominating and she makes sure people know exactly what she wants. There has to be feminine guys who are more feminine than Madonna.

Saying that men have to be this way and women have to be that way because they are just people with different brain sounds a bit like biological essentialism.

Typical feminist response. (and I say that with the utmost adoration)

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 10:24:58 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 25, 2007, 07:23:45 PM
That's what I was referring to - the mind, the the inner workings, the way things are processed.

Nero, no fair, that's kind of spinning the question around to a different place. When you said 'brain' like that, I'm just thinking 'piece of meat',  but...

Do I feel as if trans people as a larger group (???!!! whoever they are) have the brains of the their target gender in terms of inner workings, processing, ways of viewing the world... ? As a group, I'm going to say NO. I've met too many people who seem more like their assigned gender than the gender they identify with. I've met a lot of other people who seem more like somewhere in between (eg transgirls who seem more like femmy boys than girls, transmen who seem more like butches than men, transwomen who seem like men, but are perhaps more empathic and in touch with their emotions than men). I don't know what part hormones play in this. I tend to think if you're a transwoman who had a lot of female stuff going on inside pre-hrt, it will be intensified by estrogen. But I've met people who've been on hrt for decades and, I swear, still seem more like their assigned gender than their target genders.

Are there some people who DO think like their target gender... sure there are. There's a lot of diversity out there. There are people born in male bodies who are totally incapable of thinking like men but get no encouragement to understand the strength and power of how they do, in fact, think. They try to connect with others of their birth gender and find a total disconnect and lack of common ground. I feel as if I'm somewhere in that spectrum (but natch, I'M one of the ones who thinks they have a female brain... soo-prize, soo-prize).

For 10 years (!) I was in a weekly men's psychotherapy group making a desperate effort to see if I could connect to men in some way, and explore some comfortable definition for myself as to what it means to be male. I loved most of the men in that group (who were sweethearts and 'sensitive' guys) and cared about them deeply but, for the life of me, felt like such an odd fish. I experienced practically every issue the group talked about in a very different way than the rest of the group. They liked me and felt deeply about me, but sometimes got really frustrated because I tended to reframe everything the group talked about, pick it to death, and kept wanting to talk about certain issues (like sex, insecurity, body image, not feeling loved) that none of the others were comfortable bringing up. Sometimes members of the group got totally pissed at me the way a guy gets frustrated by women... because I wouldn't let certain subjects alone, kept asking a lot questions, kept asking how someone felt about stuff, kept switching the perspective on issues, yadda, yadda, yadda. Again, much as they cared about me, at some point I had practically every member of the group yelling at me because I wouldn't leave him alone. It was totally the equivalent of when guys turn to their girlfriends/wives and spew out "will you just SHUT UP and leave it the F**K alone!". Now I'm not saying some of that was because I'm just an annoying person, but I do believe a lot of it had to do with my brain working very differently than the rest of theirs. Long answer.

ciao,
Gina M.

You're skipping ahead, doll.  :laugh: Yes, I am going somewhere with this.

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 10:24:58 AM
I don't know what part hormones play in this. I tend to think if you're a transwoman who had a lot of female stuff going on inside pre-hrt, it will be intensified by estrogen. But I've met people who've been on hrt for decades and, I swear, still seem more like their assigned gender than their target genders.

Thanks. That's what I've been trying to explain to those certain ladies who think estrogen turned them into women mentally. Estrogen does make one more emotional. Females notice this when they get the strong surge during PMS.
They start crying for no reason, and they can't explain why they feel all emotional all of a sudden. It's the increase in estrogen. And I'm not so macho that I won't admit I know this firsthand. :laugh:
Estrogen can't make you 'feel' and 'think' female. It can only cause you to feel more emotional than you would probably without it.

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 09:26:26 AM
Some mental changes I went through include: I tend to consider other's feeling more than I did before.  I can cry now.  I am much more social.  I am much more verbose in my responses to people.  I'm sure there are many more to come.

I was empathetic before I started HRT, not to everybody (if I don't like you, I don't like you and its tough for me to be empathetic towards someone I dislike).  I cried before HRT, quite a bit.  In all sorts of occasions (watching happy movies, watching sad movies, in personal conversations, at concerts, it has been easy to move me to tears), the only difference I noticed is it happens faster instead of building up and then happening.  The only differance from HRT I noticed is I don't get as angry, instead well...i get more passive aggressive. 

I was extremely verbose before HRT, and pretty social, though more social in small group settings.  But I had times where I was quiet as well.  But I could chat for five or six hours straight and rarely stop.  I could write long documents without blinking an eye.  I have a very good grasp on language.  I make mistakes, but I write better than 90% of the general populace, and I have a better vocabulary as well.
But this comes from years of education, not brain structure.  I could go on and on. 

I am average at math.  Not my strong suit, but I have genetic women who had a great grasp on it. 

But I don't really know the whole brain sex issue and how it applies to me.  All I know is who I am, I quit asking why when I started to try to be more comfortable with myself.   

The scientific reasons behind this could be various.  It could be that some of our brains are closer to our target sex, it could be different wiring, it could be undiscovered IS conditions, and it could be hormonal reactions.  All of these things are possible.  The fact is a human condition as complex as this one often cannot be explained through just one solitary explanation, no matter how hard we try to search for one. 
The truth about whether TS have the brain of their target sex is more of a maybe in my mind.  Or a "we may never know". 

I voted yes.

No, my brain does not have the XX chromosomes.  I also have a larger head than most females.

But my mind and thoughts are female. It's not typical female to be sure.  I am more interested in many "manly" areas of study than many men.  But that is not relevant to the way I think, the way I feel, or the way I rationalize.

Cindi

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 10:35:10 AM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 26, 2007, 10:02:23 AM
I agree with Melissa. I am much more emotional after I've gotten on hormones. I also communicate in a more feminine way, for example, I would use phrases like "I don't think" before I say something, because the feminine way of talking  is less confrontational. I can definitely see a mental change going on,, I couldn't talk or act the way I do now before I was on HRT. The way I act toward men has definately changed alot. (although I was always very feminine, but not *like* this)

I really don't know if TS process the brain of their target sex. From reading some of the comments here, I really have to disagree. There are probably a lot of females who has a *masculine* brain and a lot of males with a *feminine* brain, I think it is ridiculous to suggest that women are this way and men are that way, although there is certainly truths to some of the stereotypes about men and women, I like to think that humans are much more diverse and unique and do not always act according to the stereotypes.


If you see people like Madonna, she is not very feminine in a lot of ways. She is confrontational, she is direct, she is dominating and she makes sure people know exactly what she wants. There has to be feminine guys who are more feminine than Madonna.

Saying that men have to be this way and women have to be that way because they are just people with different brain sounds a bit like biological essentialism.

Typical feminist response. (and I say that with the utmost adoration)

Just so you know, sir.  I am a feminine feminist! And I enjoy chivalrousness, I like to have my cake and eat it too. :D

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 10:24:58 AM
There's a lot of diversity out there. There are people born in male bodies who are totally incapable of thinking like men but get no encouragement to understand the strength and power of how they do, in fact, think. They try to connect with others of their birth gender and find a total disconnect and lack of common ground.

I was like this since I was four.  I didn't understand it until later. 

I wouldn't bother talking to a mens group, I would not even try to connect with men in such a psychotherapy group.  By 15 I was stating on a regular basis that I could not relate to most men and had a total disconnect.  "I don't get guys and I don't think I ever will." 

With that being said there is nothing that is typically male or typically female.  I have noticed a wide amount of variation in both sexes that pinning down certain social behaviors is actually close to impossible.  I know shy women who do not talk to men or women that much and very outgoing and chatty men. Trying to pin down brain sex based on stereotypes is almost impossible. 

I have also met my share of both men and women who do not really fall with men or women and have adopted the social behaviors of neither or both.  I would not call them gender variants, because in many cases they are not.

Trying to pin these things down... is difficult at best. Social behavior has more to do with upbringing and history sometimes then genetic variations or brain sex. It depends heavily on the way you are socialized and the culture you were socialized into. 

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 10:47:34 AM
Estrogen can't make you 'feel' and 'think' female.

But what does it mean to 'feel' and 'think' female?

I really can't answer your original question, cuz I can't figure out a way to "sex" my mind or thoughts. We could start listing masculine and feminine traits, but we know that doesn't make someone male or female. I honestly have no idea what sex my brain is, anymore than than I know the sex of a stapler, lol. I always shy away from the "I'm woman trapped in a man's body!" spiritual stuff, as for me it's just a metaphor, not a literal truth.

I like to stick to what I DO know:

1) I was born male (as far as I know)
2) I have an unrelenting need to live as a female, though I have no idea why
3) Unless I do what I can to fix that, it'll torture me until the day I die

Everything else is just conjecture.

Does that need make my mind female? I have no idea, lol...

~Kate~

After reading all of this stuff about how HRT makes people more emotional, I really have started to wonder about this. Ever since I come out I have been FAR more emotional than I was in the past, and I am not even on HRT yet. Once I am on it I am going to be a total emotional wreck.  :D Or maybe just more content with myself and my life.   ;D

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 09:49:26 AM
This 'evidence' you cited is all emotional stuff, just as I said.

It's actually anecdotal evidence I was using.  There is no solid scientific data to prove it either way.

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 09:49:26 AMA surge in estrogen levels does make one more in touch with their emotions or whatever. As any woman who's ever had PMS will attest to.
So, if this is all you meant, you're correct.

Perhaps these changes in ourselves and our thinking come as a result of being more in touch with our emotions.  Don't forget, a female brain has a much larger emotional and speech center than a male brain does.  Getting more emotional and more verbose would likely be natural consequences of a brain that feminizes.  Many of the finer details will have been there all along.

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 10:24:58 AM
As a group, I'm going to say NO. I've met too many people who seem more like their assigned gender than the gender they identify with.

And this is very true as well.  One thing I've noticed is that the older you are when you start HRT, it seems the more *likely* (but definitely NOT without exceptions) a person is to still act like their assigned gender.  However, this phenomenon may actually be a result of many people with less severe GID transitioning at a later age (again, some exception just couldn't due to circumstances) and thus start with a weaker female identity.  Or possibly it could just be a result of trying to be in the role too long.

This is all speculation and not meant to offend anybody.  For the record, I've noticed that most of those "exceptions" I mentioned are actually on here due to being serious enough about their transition.  Most later transitioners I refer to are people I have met offline.  It's also possible that if these people were online and had access to more terms, they may actually identify as androgynes (which is not nearly as commonly known as a TS).

Ironically, I've noticed the ones who act more like their assigned gender tend to actually seem happier living that way than ones who have needed to do a full transition.  But perhaps that's because they didn't have to give up nearly as much of their old lives.

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 10:24:58 AM
I tend to think if you're a transwoman who had a lot of female stuff going on inside pre-hrt, it will be intensified by estrogen. But I've met people who've been on hrt for decades and, I swear, still seem more like their assigned gender than their target genders.

And that could be an explanation to the observations I described above.  What you described correlates well with what I have seen too.

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 10:24:58 AM
Are there some people who DO think like their target gender... sure there are. There's a lot of diversity out there. There are people born in male bodies who are totally incapable of thinking like men but get no encouragement to understand the strength and power of how they do, in fact, think. They try to connect with others of their birth gender and find a total disconnect and lack of common ground. I feel as if I'm somewhere in that spectrum (but natch, I'M one of the ones who thinks they have a female brain... soo-prize, soo-prize).

I learned I could connect with very few men, but I could connect with *some* of them to *some* degree.  However, as I went along in transition, I connected to a lesser degree.  Perhaps I don't know what it's like to truly connect with a man.  I went around without many real friends--just acquaintances for the most part.

Anyhow, that was very thought provoking.  If anyone was offended by anything I said, it was not intended to be, and these were merely educated guesses.  I know there's always exceptions to the rule and so these may be completely inaccurate.

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 12:39:10 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 09:49:26 AM
This 'evidence' you cited is all emotional stuff, just as I said.

It's actually anecdotal evidence I was using.  There is no solid scientific data to prove it either way.

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 09:49:26 AMA surge in estrogen levels does make one more in touch with their emotions or whatever. As any woman who's ever had PMS will attest to.
So, if this is all you meant, you're correct.

Perhaps these changes in ourselves and our thinking come as a result of being more in touch with our emotions.  Don't forget, a female brain has a much larger emotional and speech center than a male brain does.  Getting more emotional and more verbose would likely be natural consequences of a brain that feminizes.  Many of the finer details will have been there all along.

We're on the same page then. My apologies. I mistook your meaning in your original post.
I had a looooong debate about this recently in one of my other threads. If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

Yeah, part of being a *guy* is about not being emotional. That is why it is hard to understand them, because they are interested in "logic" and "abstract ideas". >>

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Well, they probably can to some degree if somebody was on them long enough.  However, it doesn't mean that the person will like having those thoughts if it is not the same gender.  Now, where I'm fuzzy on is: How much of a person's behaviors and mannerisms are caused by hormones and how much is caused by adoption of the social role? 

For instance, before transition, I tended to be somewhat lazy regarding housework because of the expectation that women should take more responsibility for housework (a notion that was instilled in me by my parents).  When I started transitioning, I got out of this rut and started doing more work.  It was only an adopted aspect of the expected role from my perception.  I underwent many changes in the first couple of months prior to transition including becoming more emotional.  This was before I ever started HRT!!!  It means that many of these female aspects resided in me before I ever underwent any physical changes.

However, as I was on HRT, I noticed things would change mentally all by themselves that I had no control over.  It was very disconcerting to realize that you do not have as much control over yourself as you thought you did.  Some of these changes affect your entire outlook on the world.  Here's a good analogy of what it feels like:  It's like looking at a puzzle and having one piece at a time replaced over a long period of time.  Each one affects your picture of life and how you process information.  As the picture itself constantly changes, you are trying to figure out what the puzzle is a picture of.  One day you notice that all pieces have been replaced and the entire puzzle has completely changed.  Then you realize that you are seeing the original picture you started with, it's just that now you are interpreting it completely differently and thus you see an entirely different picture than you did before.

Here's a pictorial example of my analogy:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coolopticalillusions.com%2Foptical_illusions_images_2%2Fimages%2Fboatman.gif&hash=037222ffad08b2074404e306ace32e3f7b0e78b4)

To divert this topic in a whole other direction...

"Do TS possess the brains of their target sex?"  Why, yes.  I keep them in these jars here on this shelf.

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 26, 2007, 03:17:07 PM

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 26, 2007, 07:27:31 AM
i'm already bad at math  :laugh:

WARNING:  watch for these symbols:   :laugh:  and   :D

they are heralds of an incoming attempt at *humor*

do not, i repeat, do not, under any circumstances, take any of ashley's comments which precede the :laugh: and :D seriously.

said comments *may* or more likely *may not* actually be funny. 

your mileage may vary.  void where prohibited.  objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are.

I understand it was humor and the way that it read was "I'm bad at math and females are stereotypically bad at math, so therefore I must possess a female brain."  That's the only way it makes sense to me at least while still fitting within the topic of discussion.  I was taking your inference of your joke and using that as an example because it was readily available.  It was the same with Wendy's comment.  My observation was merely stated to elicit thought about what people write and that some things just shouldn't be assumed.  That's it.

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

YEP!

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM
Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

NOPE!

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

You're WAY out on a limb here, and I doubt I can reach you to rescue you. It's hopeless. You're a sweet, pretty kitty, but I give up. You're going to perish in that tree.

This is one of my biggest beefs with our community.
I'm just going to be frank here. The vast majority of transpeople have no clue what a man is and what a woman is.
I give up. Sorry, but I'm not climbing that ladder again. :icon_no:

exactly nero....
most trans people play steriotypes, and its laughable...you would think they had never met real women or men.


for one: hugging anyone you just met on the internet, even if it is /me hugs x, is personal space invasion, women dont hug everyone they say hello to. women arnt all lovehearts, swooning romantics, pacifists, and feminist. manbashing, is a largely ->-bleeped-<- pasttime...

really possess the brain of your target gender? or just really wish you do?

i sorta agree gina, except for the techie bit. i know natal females that go on like that... thats not male thinking, its geek thinking...

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 02:00:33 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Well, they probably can to some degree if somebody was on them long enough.  However, it doesn't mean that the person will like having those thoughts if it is not the same gender.  Now, where I'm fuzzy on is: How much of a person's behaviors and mannerisms are caused by hormones and how much is caused by adoption of the social role? 

For instance, before transition, I tended to be somewhat lazy regarding housework because of the expectation that women should take more responsibility for housework (a notion that was instilled in me by my parents).  When I started transitioning, I got out of this rut and started doing more work.  It was only an adopted aspect of the expected role from my perception.  I underwent many changes in the first couple of months prior to transition including becoming more emotional.  This was before I ever started HRT!!!  It means that many of these female aspects resided in me before I ever underwent any physical changes.

However, as I was on HRT, I noticed things would change mentally all by themselves that I had no control over.  It was very disconcerting to realize that you do not have as much control over yourself as you thought you did.  Some of these changes affect your entire outlook on the world.  Here's a good analogy of what it feels like:  It's like looking at a puzzle and having one piece at a time replaced over a long period of time.  Each one affects your picture of life and how you process information.  As the picture itself constantly changes, you are trying to figure out what the puzzle is a picture of.  One day you notice that all pieces have been replaced and the entire puzzle has completely changed.  Then you realize that you are seeing the original picture you started with, it's just that now you are interpreting it completely differently and thus you see an entirely different picture than you did before.

Here's a pictorial example of my analogy:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coolopticalillusions.com%2Foptical_illusions_images_2%2Fimages%2Fboatman.gif&hash=037222ffad08b2074404e306ace32e3f7b0e78b4)

Another kitty stuck up the same tree. ::)

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

[/font]

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

I am sure we can find cisgender people that overlap each personality trait of the opposite gender.  I do believe that.  Is that your final answer? Yes that is my final answer.

As an aside hormones have removed some of my depression and I am devilish. >:D   I do see flaws with the following statement: "That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender." 

None of us will argue that emotions change when hormones are administered.  I also think that administering female hormones to a male does not create a female brain.  However can changed emotions influence your behavior?  (Kate I like your analysis.)  Well some of my experiences seem to indicate that my emotional shift has influenced my behavior!

Here is an example:
Hormones have not dramatically changed the size and shape of my body.  However I do feel more vulnerable and my behavior is more cautious.  (It hurts to get punched in the chest.)  Physical (less strength and painful boobs) and emotional (more cautious and less aggressive)  changes  have influenced my behavior.  If we change our behaviors will we influence the chemistry of our brain?  Of cause we have!  The average man has 50% more skeletal muscle than the average woman.  Women by genetics are more vulnerable than men.  Therefore if a behavior is changed which in turn changes the chemistry of the brain "and" that new behavior is expressed more frequently in the  targetted gender then it might be reasoned that the HRT brain is more closely mimicking the targetted gender brain! 

A similar experience can happen between a sexual relationship between a genetic male and a genetic female if the male takes female hormones.  The male becomes less aggressive sexually due to the hormones which influences behavior, which changes the chemistry in the brain.  We can easily have two people not initiating sex feeling "nobody loves me".  :'(i  (I am not sitting here crying but rather using a icon to express the emotion given in this example.)

The bottomline is my male brain on females hormones has not become a female brain but numerous aspects of my brain are emotionally and in turn behaviorally influenced.  These behavior changes chemically altered my brain and in some cases appear to mimic a common behavioral trait exhibited by the targetted gender.

In conclusion hormones have influenced certain emotional and physical changes in me that have influenced my behavior.  These new behaviors are learned and chemically alter my brain.  These new behaviors are not very diffferent from behaviors I have noted in cisgender females (such as seen in my wife) which supports the argument that some of my brain has been altered to mimic the targetted gender.  Therefore in some circumstances hormones seen to have altered the HRT brain to think and act like the other gender.

heres an interesting concept: since starting hrt, ive naturally picked up female manerisms, behaviour, speach patterns, heck, even my voice is natrual female now. does that mean my brain has the right hormonal fuel now?

Quote from: Wendy on July 26, 2007, 04:36:14 PM

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

[/font]

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

I am sure we can find cisgender people that overlap each personality trait of the opposite gender.  I do believe that.  Is that your final answer? Yes that is my final answer.

As an aside hormones have removed some of my depression and I am devilish. >:D   I do see flaws with the following statement: "That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender." 

None of us will argue that emotions change when hormones are administered.  I also think that administering female hormones to a male does not create a female brain.  However can changed emotions influence your behavior?  (Kate I like your analysis.)  Well some of my experiences seem to indicate that my emotional shift has influenced my behavior!

Here is an example:
Hormones have not dramatically changed the size and shape of my body.  However I do feel more vulnerable and my behavior is more cautious.  (It hurts to get punched in the chest.)  Physical (less strength and painful boobs) and emotional (more cautious and less aggressive)  changes  have influenced my behavior.  If we change our behaviors will we influence the chemistry of our brain?  Of cause we have!  The average man has 50% more skeletal muscle than the average woman.  Women by genetics are more vulnerable than a man.  Therefore if a behavior is changed which in turn changes the chemistry of the brain "and" that new behavior is expressed more frequently in the  targetted gender then it might be reasoned that the HRT brain is more closely mimicking the targetted gender brain! 

A similar experience can happen between a sexual relationship between a genetic male and a genetic female if the male takes female hormones.  The male becomes less aggressive sexually due to the hormones which influences behavior, which changes the chemistry in the brain.  We can easily have two people not initiating sex feeling "nobody loves me".  :'(i  (I am not sitting here crying but rather using a icon to express the emotion given in this example.)

The bottomline is my male brain on females hormones has not become a female brain but numerous aspects of my brain are emotionally and in turn behaviorally influenced.  These behavior changes chemically altered my brain and in some cases appear to mimic a common behavioral trait exhibited by the targetted gender.

In conclusion hormones have influenced certain emotional and physical changes in me that have influenced my behavior.  These new behaviors are learned and chemically alter my brain.  These new behaviors are not very diffferent from behaviors I have noted in cisgender females (such as seen in my wife) which supports the argument that some of my brain has been altered to mimic the targetted gender.  Therefore in some circumstances hormones seen to have altered the HRT brain to think and act like the other gender.

3 cats stuck up the same tree. Dammit! I have fires to put out! Lives to save! You all can stay up there for all I care!

EARTH TO WENDY AND YOU TWO OTHER KITTIES STUCK UP THAT TREE

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,16858.0.html

Why do so many transpeople feed into male and female stereotypes? Most natal females would laugh at these ideas.
Men can be passive and women can be aggressive. Men can be empathetic and women can be bitches.
For the last time.
It's not what hormone flows through your veins!

You're either a woman or you're not. End of story!

aye, i was a woman without hrt, hrt is a means to a phsical ends. it hasnt changed who i am, im a girl, and i was one from the day i was born. just in funny wrapping paper ready to pop out 20 years later going 'lol suprise!'

im a tomboy, i dont ACTUALLY own a dress, and have two skirts, only one pair of heels. and 4 pairs of mens jeans and hoodies i wear regularly. Clothes dont make the man or woman
they make themselves.

I had to discontinue hormones for medical reasons.  Other than the pains of going through menopause, it hasn't changed my life at all.  My thinking is still the same.  I still experience the same highs and same lows.

When I transitioned, I thought that the estrogens helped me some but I was never quite sure.  I don't know that they made me more stable emotionally.  Just getting out of Utah was a big stress release to be sure, so I can't really say if the hormones were helpful at that point to me or not.

Cindi

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 04:11:01 PM


The vast, vast, vast majority of geeks (I've unfortunately met) are guys. Even the women I know who are into computer stuff don't talk like that all the time. But maybe I don't know them because I don't want to know them. I can't be objective, I think the geek mindset is boring. (and don't come after me with your ninja swords).

ciao,
Gina M.

I have to agree with Gina here.  I could go into details. 

Most women I know are feminist, but I regular progressive circles...where most women are feminist, and finding one who is not is next to impossible.  I work in the progressive nonprofit field, so this is expected. 

  Most women however are not lovehearts or swooning romantics.  Manbashing is rare. 

(Just because I don't get men, doesn't mean I bash them, I literally can't understand the complete mindset.  I don't hate them, I just can never understand where they are coming from.)

I really don't know if I contain the brain of my target gender...and I am not about to split open my head to find out.  I could speculate, but thats it, speculation.

I would like to add, I don't think acculturation is being discussed enough, because it really does have a huge part to play in this discussion.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 26, 2007, 05:02:29 PM
I had to discontinue hormones for medical reasons.  Other than the pains of going through menopause, it hasn't changed my life at all.  My thinking is still the same.  I still experience the same highs and same lows.

Exactly. And you haven't suddenly turned into a man because of lack of estrogen.

Ok.
Women generally cry more easily and are more emotional.
Men generally have a higher libido and are more aggressive.
And part of this is due to hormones.
But there is so much more to being a man or a woman than that.

yeah, quite true. i know im more emotional now, but thats due to my hormones. they change the outlet of my emotion, with tesosterone, i bottled it up, or channeled it differently. with estrogen, i feel it, i ride the wave. and its much more expressive i feel.
more aggressive? heh, works both ways
more libido? i have some natal female friends who would dissagree. men are more sexually obsessed, women just hide it better ;)

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 06:06:26 PM
But there is so much more to being a man or a woman than that.

Such as...?

~Kate~

Posted on: July 26, 2007, 07:27:57 PM

---

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 04:54:49 PM
Why do so many transpeople feed into male and female stereotypes? Most natal females would laugh at these ideas.

Awl geez, Nero, I'm saying that too... that chasing definitions is great fun, but ultimately pointless aside from creating groups of "true" and "real" TSs and men/women.

I'm not saying being emotional makes someone a woman, or being sexual makes someone a man... I AM saying that if hormones do anything mentally, it seems to be those two influences. Simple as that. I stop there. All the other stuff about who is real and who is pretending and true TSs and... ick.

Ya know, TSism isn't that complicated. Some people feel a need to change their sex. No one knows why. There are some pretty effective solutions to do it. Some do it, some don't.

But then humans and their insecurities get pulled into the picture, and start twisting and warping everything around them... searches for justification ("I'm a woman inside and always have been!"), searches for validation, avoidance of fears... it all just gets so MESSY and complicated.

It's kinda ashame, as I fear it keeps so many people from just FIXING this silly problem, wasting away years trying to justify to themselves that's it's OK to do so.

QuoteYou're either a woman or you're not. End of story!

How? Defined by what? Or more importantly... by WHO?

I swear sometimes I'm not TS. I just don't relate to this sorta thing anymore where people finally "know" that they're a man/woman, which gives them the strength to transition. I went the other way, and *unlearned* all the baggage that was yanking me around. If you constantly worry about what you are, and if others are "real" men and women, you end up in this constant war and struggle to maintain the definitions you're using to justify your identity and actions. That's just no fun, not for me anyway :(

~Kate~

I don't knoooow, (chewing gum and twirling my hair)

I picked yes. Either you are male or female. I don't know why a normal male would transition hoping to get a female mind.

Nero good thread but my brain is exhausted.

Excuse me Nero but the off topic caught my attention:

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 04:01:13 PM
Here's a big generalization: on average, I can imagine more masculine-behaving people tend to pick themselves apart less than feminine-behaving people. (thoughts on that?)

Regina I look very much like a male and no one questions my gender except me.  I can not imagine many people on this forum being as brutal on themselves as me.  I do not even consider myself effeminate.  A sample of 1 would say no.

The sad reality for me is that I am approaching insanity.   If no then insane.

you are either a male or a female or both or niether period!

Quote from: Ell on July 27, 2007, 02:28:12 AM
i read in a British TS site that, aside from the reproductive organs, there is actually very little difference between males and females, except in regards to hormones and the effects that hormones have on the body and mind.

i am distressed to hear lots of trans people say that hormones have little effect on the mind. the research says otherwise. it states that being on a hormone regimen for a year will cause significant, irreversible changes in the brain.

and you make it sound as if you don't care whether you ever go on hormones!

hmm...i think you're scared. well, maybe you are right to be. maybe you sense that T is not for you. not that i'm trying to steer you along, one way or another. take whatever route you see fit, take your time. but i think you're the one who's way out on the limb on this issue.

Believe what you will. There's no evidence. I resent that you're making this issue personal.

T will not make me or break me. When I go on it, it will only be to become more passable. No more, no less.

(And I'm not addressing you specifically, Ell. I won't stoop to your level and make my argument personal)
To be frank - from my observations, the TS who wax poetic about the 'mental' effects of HRT are the ones hoping it is a magical cure to make them feel and behave as their target gender, because they don't already.
They don't feel like men and women, they only want to be. They put all their faith into a pill, and assume the emotional and sexual effects are what it's like to be men and women.

I shared with my mother last night some of the notions and comments on this thread. She was insulted. Who she is -  is not dependent on some hormone. She said the notion that a testosterone injection would make her think and feel like a man was laughable, absurd, and offensive.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 08:15:02 AM
Believe what you will. There's no evidence. I resent that you're making this issue personal.

no offense was intended. but if that's the way it sounded i apologize. i just thought we were having an open and honest discussion.

Open and honest, yes. But about the topic, not the person. This is the second time in a week someone had to make the topic of one of my threads into a personal issue about myself.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 08:52:44 AM
Open and honest, yes. But about the topic, not the person. This is the second time in a week someone had to make the topic of one of my threads into a personal issue about myself.

well, i'm not going to sit here and say i wasn't talking about you. but please trust me, i didn't intend it in a mean-spirited way, ok? i was trying to be helpful and constructive, though it may not always seem that way.

Quote from: Ell on July 27, 2007, 09:37:59 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 08:52:44 AM
Open and honest, yes. But about the topic, not the person. This is the second time in a week someone had to make the topic of one of my threads into a personal issue about myself.

well, i'm not going to sit here and say i wasn't talking about you. but please trust me, i didn't intend it in a mean-spirited way, ok? i was trying to be helpful and constructive, though it may not always seem that way.

Okay. :)

I didn't vote but I believe there are some that possess the brains of their target sex and some that don't.....you can usually define the one's that do...

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 08:15:02 AM
To be frank - from my observations, the TS who wax poetic about the 'mental' effects of HRT are the ones hoping it is a magical cure to make them feel and behave as their target gender, because they don't already.

But isn't it true that in general, men are more sexual and women more emotional?

And isn't it true that in general, HRT makes M2Fs more emotional and F2Ms more sexual?

So... doesn't it make sense that in general, these effects would be welcome?

I'm not suggesting HRT or these effects "make someone a man/woman." But they sure seem to change SOME aspects of the personality to be more in line with one's gender identity.

A number of us have said that given a choice between the mental changes and physical ones, we'd pick the mental ones. I still stand by that. My post-HRT experience of the world is far, FAR different than what it was. Now, maybe a LOT of that is from the inner growth I've done this last year too, but STILL... I am not the same person I was. Whether I'm a "real" man or woman I leave up to others to judge me for if it makes them feel better about themselves and THEIR insecurities, but I do know I feel RIGHT in my head for the first time in my life, however you explain it.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on July 27, 2007, 09:55:57 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 08:15:02 AM
To be frank - from my observations, the TS who wax poetic about the 'mental' effects of HRT are the ones hoping it is a magical cure to make them feel and behave as their target gender, because they don't already.

But isn't it true that in general, men are more sexual and women more emotional?

And isn't it true that in general, HRT makes M2Fs more emotional and F2Ms more sexual?

So... doesn't it make sense that in general, these effects would be welcome?

I'm not suggesting HRT or these effects "make someone a man/woman." But they sure seem to change SOME aspects of the personality to be more in line with one's gender identity.

A number of us have said that given a choice between the mental changes and physical ones, we'd pick the mental ones. I still stand by that. My post-HRT experience of the world is far, FAR different than what it was. Now, maybe a LOT of that is from the inner growth I've done this last year too, but STILL... I am not the same person I was. Whether I'm a "real" man or woman I leave up to others to judge me for if it makes them feel better about themselves and THEIR insecurities, but I do know I feel RIGHT in my head for the first time in my life, however you explain it.

~Kate~

::) *sighs heavily*

Dammit! My work is never done.

I'm climbing up the ladder. Here kitty kitty! Here kitty kitty kittyyyyy!
Check your pms for impending rescue.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 10:12:32 AM
I'm climbing up the ladder. Here kitty kitty! Here kitty kitty kittyyyyy!
Check your pms for impending rescue.

Dear Nero,

Yes I am/was hoping I would find a magic pill and everything would go "puff" and all would be fine. However one of the issues with this stuff is that you become illogical and look for rational explanations for a condition that seems at best illogical.  I happen to agree with Kate and I am also in the tree.

Why would your mom be upset with people trying different things in hopes that it will be repaired or things will be crystal clear?  I seem to remember a recent survey in which people could switch their bodies to the target gender.  No less were the responses overwhelmingly in favor of doing the operation, they were also willing to accept a huge risk of death in the procedure!

Quote from: Wendy on July 27, 2007, 10:45:30 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 10:12:32 AM
I'm climbing up the ladder. Here kitty kitty! Here kitty kitty kittyyyyy!
Check your pms for impending rescue.

Dear Nero,

Yes I am/was hoping I would find a magic pill and everything would go "puff" and all would be fine. However one of the issues with this stuff is that you become illogical and look for rational explanations for a condition that seems at best illogical.  I happen to agree with Kate and I am also in the tree.

Why would your mom be upset with people trying different things in hopes that it will be repaired or things will be crystal clear?  I seem to remember a recent survey in which people could switch their bodies to the target gender.  No less were the responses overwhelmingly in favor of doing the operation, they were also willing to accept a huge risk of death in the procedure!

My mom was insulted because she's a woman, not a machine that runs on estrogen.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 11:07:02 AM

---

Quote from: regina on July 27, 2007, 11:06:12 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 08:15:02 AM
Believe what you will. There's no evidence. I resent that you're making this issue personal.

This is a personal subject. How can it not be personal. Nero, when you use terms like 'wax poetic,' which is a putdown to people who've had a certain experience with hrt (even if I didn't share that experience).

QuoteT will not make me or break me. When I go on it, it will only be to become more passable. No more, no less.

You haven't been on it yet, and until then, you don't know what it will and won't do specifically for you. Anything else is just conjecture, isn't it?

Quote(And I'm not addressing you specifically, Ell. I won't stoop to your level and make my argument personal)
To be frank - from my observations, the TS who wax poetic about the 'mental' effects of HRT are the ones hoping it is a magical cure to make them feel and behave as their target gender, because they don't already.

As I mentioned in another post, what they might be experiencing is freedom from the 'inappropriate' hormone they feel are kind of lashing them to their assigned gender. To an mtf, suppressing T  and boosting estrogen is a very real affect, in terms of allowing one to more objectively deal with your gender. It doesn't magically turn people into something they're not, but it does afford them a freedom to allow whatever is inside to come out and to accept socialization in your target gender without your body rebelling against it. Some people get profoundly, outwardly changed by that experience and others don't seem to be.

QuoteI shared with my mother last night some of the notions and comments on this thread. She was insulted. Who she is -  is not dependent on some hormone. She said the notion that a testosterone injection would make her think and feel like a man was laughable, absurd, and offensive.

It's not laughable because she hasn't done it. You don't get to laugh at it until you've gone through that one and been there. And by the way, isn't laughing at someone else's deeply felt experience kind of a personal attack, Mr. 'no-personal-attacks'?

Gina M.

It don't matter one bit whether I've been on HRT or not.
One main reason I hold this view is:

I have a sex drive that rivals most men I know (and no I ain't saying this for machismo purposes because I actually find it a nuisance.) Like an itch that needs to be scratched a dozen times a day.

When I was institutionalized in a teen psych ward, one of the things written in my file and discussed with my folks was: Patient is overly aggressive, combative, and over-sexed.

Now they probably felt that was significant and abnormal for a 14 year old girl, which is probably why they made it an issue.
Basically all the mental stuff ftms have reported from T are things I already experience, which makes me believe it ain't the T, but a placebo effect for these guys.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 11:18:46 AM
Basically all the mental stuff ftms have reported from T are things I already experience, which makes me believe it ain't the T, but a placebo effect for these guys.

You don't believe that T generally increases sex drive and aggression in people?

You don't believe that women generally become more emotional at certain times of the month because of fluctuations in E?

I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, I really am! I understand that gender identity is independent of one's physical makeup, and that HRT doesn't "make" anyone into men or women. But for SOME people, HRT certainly seems to induce certain male-like or female-like behaviours and responses. And not just in TSs, but I swear I read that some women take small amounts of T to increase their sex drive... and aren't some rapists and whatnot offered castration as a "cure" for their impulses? And women go on HRT to stop the insane mood swings of menopause, right?

~Kate~

Quote from: regina on July 27, 2007, 11:35:59 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 11:18:46 AM
It don't matter one bit whether I've been on HRT or not.
One main reason I hold this view is:

I have a sex drive that rivals most men I know (and no I ain't saying this for machismo purposes because I actually find it a nuisance.) Like an itch that needs to be scratched a dozen times a day.

When I was institutionalized in a teen psych ward, one of the things written in my file and discussed with my folks was: Patient is overly aggressive, combative, and over-sexed.

Now they probably felt that was significant and abnormal for a 14 year old girl, which is probably why they made it an issue.
Basically all the mental stuff ftms have reported from T are things I already experience, which makes me believe it ain't the T, but a placebo effect for these guys.

And I'm sorry you can't admit that you don't totally know the answer yet.

ciao bambino,
Gina M.

::) One more time.
I also know a woman with a severe hormonal condition which causes her body to produce massive amounts of testosterone at normal levels for a man. When she told me she had the condition, we talked at length about it.
Because I wanted to know what it does to a genetic female. I had all the questions.
She said she doesn't feel any differently from before, doesn't think any differently, and certainly doesn't feel like a man. The only non-physical thing she noticed was an increase in libido.
She hates that she has to wax her body and that her hair falls out, but the only changes are aesthetic ones.
She's also very girly I might add.
It seems the only ones reporting all this mental stuff are the ones who are looking and expecting to feel them.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 11:56:45 AM

---

Quote from: Kate on July 27, 2007, 11:48:50 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 11:18:46 AM
Basically all the mental stuff ftms have reported from T are things I already experience, which makes me believe it ain't the T, but a placebo effect for these guys.

You don't believe that T generally increases sex drive and aggression in people?

You don't believe that women generally become more emotional at certain times of the month because of fluctuations in E?

I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, I really am! I understand that gender identity is independent of one's physical makeup, and that HRT doesn't "make" anyone into men or women. But for SOME people, HRT certainly seems to induce certain male-like or female-like behaviours and responses. And not just in TSs, but I swear I read that some women take small amounts of T to increase their sex drive... and aren't some rapists and whatnot offered castration as a "cure" for their impulses? And women go on HRT to stop the insane mood swings of menopause, right?

~Kate~

If you'll look at my earlier posts, that's exactly what I did say. That estrogen makes one more emotional, and testosterone makes one more horny.
One of my pet peeves is when someone replies to a post without reading the rest of the thread beforehand.  :icon_anger:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 11:56:45 AM
The only non-physical thing she noticed was an increase in libido.

But a few posts ago, you mentioned that you always were oversexed, and suggested that F2Ms who claim T made them feel that way were just experiencing a placebo effect...?

~Kate~

Quote from: regina on July 27, 2007, 11:06:12 AM

QuoteI shared with my mother last night some of the notions and comments on this thread. She was insulted. Who she is -  is not dependent on some hormone. She said the notion that a testosterone injection would make her think and feel like a man was laughable, absurd, and offensive.

Tell mom it's not laughable because she hasn't done it. You don't get to laugh at it until you've gone through that one and been there. And by the way, isn't laughing at someone else's deeply felt experience kind of a personal attack, Mr. 'no-personal-attacks'?

Gina M.

Okaaaay. So a genetic woman doesn't have the right to find the notion that her gender is nothing more than a chemical running through her veins and if replaced with the opposite chemical she'd be for all intents and purposes, a man, laughable and highly insulting?

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 04:06:12 PM
Another kitty stuck up the same tree. ::)

Well, I speak from personal experience.  You speak from you observations and theories.

Quote from: Kate on July 27, 2007, 12:05:33 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 11:56:45 AM
The only non-physical thing she noticed was an increase in libido.

But a few posts ago, you mentioned that you always were oversexed, and suggested that F2Ms who claim T made them feel that way were just experiencing a placebo effect...?

~Kate~

No. It's a fact that testosterone increases libido and estrogen makes one more emotional.
But

Horny does not equal man.

Emotional does not equal woman.







Posted on: July 27, 2007, 12:24:40 PM

---

Okay. I'm not addressing anyone personally, so don't start.

But I'm going to be frank: If you didn't already think and feel like your target gender before HRT, then you are not that gender.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 12:26:34 PM

---

If you think feeling more emotional equates to thinking and feeling and acting like a woman, you are sadly mistaken, and any gg who happened onto this thread is positively ROLLING right now.

im with nero, hormones express  characteristics in us, that are symptomatic of the male and female gender. because they generally have these hormones... if you catch my drift.
men are men
women are women, with or without drugs.  post menapausal women are still women, pre pubecent boys are still men, dispite not having the same levels or hormones. people are people, and if nobody was a girl before hrt, then they sure as hell wont be afterwards...

Hormones are catalysts... nothing more.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 12:24:14 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 04:06:12 PM
Another kitty stuck up the same tree. ::)

Well, I speak from personal experience.  You speak from you observations and theories.

Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucigenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:05:31 PM
Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Or prejudice.  Oh, wait!  That's sometimes another word for "theories."

Quote from: regina on July 27, 2007, 01:12:06 PM
ps. I think I know who you take after in your family.

Lol I am Mama's boy! :laugh:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:12:14 PM
And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucegenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

But even you said that the sexual and emotional effects of HRT are real...

Then say that those of us who claim to have experienced these effects are just experiencing a placebo effect...

Do you see why I'm getting lost?

~Kate~

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 27, 2007, 01:14:49 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:05:31 PM
Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Or prejudice.  Oh, wait!  That's sometimes another word for "theories."

so is exactly what your doing right now... prejudicince doctors simply on personal views...
pot calling mr kettle?


R :police:

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 27, 2007, 01:14:49 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:05:31 PM
Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Or prejudice.  Oh, wait!  That's sometimes another word for "theories."

Possibly.  Either way, they still have a better grasp of things than the patient.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 01:21:10 PM

---

Quote from: Kate on July 27, 2007, 01:18:57 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:12:14 PM
And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucegenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

But even you said that the sexual and emotional effects of HRT are real...

Then say that those of us who claim to have experienced these effects are just experiencing a placebo effect...

Do you see why I'm getting lost?

~Kate~

Being horny or emotional does not make up the difference between man and woman. There are a lot of over-sexed women and men who cry at the drop of a hat.

I hear you mewing kitty. I'm getting that ladder. I just got distracted for a bit.

these two are characteristics common to the genders. enduced by hormones to some extent. are we saying women cant get horny and men cant be emotional?

R :police:

Hormones...

First of all, since most TS prior to HRT suffer deep psychological disturbance that have a definitite impact on brain chemicals, there's a good change that's its impossible to know the exact effect HRT has had on them since the effect will be intertwined with the lifting of most or all of the psychologic disturbance, depression or anxiety.

Second, women at menopause have a very low level of E and are still women, though the low E has been proven to have some impacts on the brain, mostly in cognitive functions.

Are Hypoganadal men less men, feel less like men, because their T levels are low?

Thirdly, a high level of E induces a high libido in women, the biological reason for that is simple, inducing them to mate when they are fertile.

If a high E level introduces changes in the brain (seemingly so) are those change discernable externally or simply visible through MRI, same thing with T. Does the person's base personality devellopped over X year override any changes that occur?

im sortof tempted to agree. we dont make the best test cases due to our mental turmoils. plus we exadurate, nature of the beast.

So far, there are two ladies posting in this thread that I can't for the life of me figure why they're debating this with me. Because this issue has no bearing on them whatsoever. They must be coming to the defence of other ladies for whom this is an issue.

Seriously, these two ladies trip my detector bigtime. Every post of their's is like a car alarm going off -
Woo woo wooo, eek, eek, eek, nt, nt nt STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!

For it to trip out like that on me, there's no way they haven't always been female. From birth. No way in hades they didn't think, feel, and act like women before HRT (whether they know it or not)
Estrogen does not trip my detector. And I've had ftms who've been on T for years trip my detector with that same message STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!
If HRT really does all you people claim, why are there testosterone oozing ftms tripping my freakin detector?!? And what of the estrogen drenched mtfs who think and behave like Tony Soprano?!?

exactly. Hrt does what we WANT it to do, largely the effects are psycosematic. and what we imagine as changes, and new feelings, have been there all along... Hormone replacement therapy is a treatment in colaboration with therapy, and personal descovery. We may attribute more to it than is physically due.

I for one am glad i started. my body is finally looking good, and like MINE. my mind, largely remains the same, while more emotionally sensative and perceptive. im the same person, ive not magically become some random girly girl. im still Rach, i still airsoft, i still want to join the police, i still long for a husband, kids and a happy life.
If anything HRT has clarified my mind, not changed it.

Here's the main idea I am hearing from you, which I disagree with:

Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

Now, here's some ideas I do agree with:
* The underlying thought processes of the identified gender are always there regardless of which hormones are in a person.  TRUE
* We are our still gender regardless of our hormones.  TRUE
* Our behaviors do not make us male or female, it's how we think that does.  TRUE

Quote from: Rachael on July 27, 2007, 01:19:08 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 27, 2007, 01:14:49 PM
Or prejudice.  Oh, wait!  That's sometimes another word for "theories."

so is exactly what your doing right now... prejudicince doctors simply on personal views...
pot calling mr kettle?

LOL!  No.  "Theory" is a fancy word for "I think this is how it works."  "Observation" is informal collection of non-quantitative information.  When you start talking about "clinical studies" then you finally get to real facts.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 02:59:12 PM

---

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:24:29 PM
Possibly.  Either way, they still have a better grasp of things than the patient.

I think that's an unwarrented conclusion.  The doctor might or might not.  Any number of patients have discovered that over the years.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 03:01:20 PM

---

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM
Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

Or if you had read the clinical studies that have been done over the years.  Estrogen is positively correlated with depression.  Testosterone is positively correlated with anger.  The most significant one that was done last year in the Netherlands and Germany using NMRI shows that the macroscopic structure of the brain is altered by HRT.

theory usually has evidence. prejudice, (ie this) doesnt

Quote from: Rachael on July 27, 2007, 03:11:20 PM
theory usually has evidence. prejudice, (ie this) doesnt

Unh hunh.  You're thinking physics and chemistry.  Doesn't hold for psychology.

empirical evidence no, case evidence, yes.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM
Here's the main idea I am hearing from you, which I disagree with:

Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

it depends on other factors too, but that helps ;)


R :police:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:20:33 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM
Here's the main idea I am hearing from you, which I disagree with:

Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

Would you tell your doctor his diagnosis is wrong because he never 'experienced' your condition firsthand?

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 03:28:48 PM

---

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 02:46:41 PM
So far, there are two ladies posting in this thread that I can't for the life of me figure why they're debating this with me. Because this issue has no bearing on them whatsoever. They must be coming to the defence of other ladies for whom this is an issue.

Seriously, these two ladies trip my detector bigtime. Every post of their's is like a car alarm going off -
Woo woo wooo, eek, eek, eek, nt, nt nt STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!

For it to trip out like that on me, there's no way they haven't always been female. From birth. No way in hades they didn't think, feel, and act like women before HRT (whether they know it or not)
Estrogen does not trip my detector. And I've had ftms who've been on T for years trip my detector with that same message STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!
If HRT really does all you people claim, why are there testosterone oozing ftms tripping my freakin detector?!? And what of the estrogen drenched mtfs who think and behave like Tony Soprano?!?

Hmmm Interesting. Since posting this, I notice there have been no further posts or arguments from the ladies in question.
Hiding in red-faced embarrassment are we?
Alright, you willowy, wispy, wood sprite and you super dignified, highly sensitive, stately mare - come out, come out, wherever you are!!

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:28:48 PM
Would you tell your doctor his diagnosis is wrong because he never 'experienced' your condition firsthand?

Maybe I've missed the point... and I'm over reacting. But I'm sorry, but I would like a clear answer on this...

Are you saying that you're a qualified medical professional, with the appropriate education and experience, to make the sweeping, judgmental, and hurtful statements you've made across the board over the past weeks?

I know... I know I'm not very feminine. I've had a couple guy friends, and not many female ones. I was geeky, aggressive, analytical, argumentative, as a young teen. I played video games, and gorged on science books and magazines. I'm majoring in engineering, after all. My mom always told me how insensitive and cold I am, how I wasn't noticeably feminine as a child.

I don't know how my brain is. I don't know if its feminine or masculine. Or if hormones have helped or changed it. And you know...? That hurts. It hurts to not be sure if I'm really a "woman", by yours, or anyone else's standards, let alone my own. I don't know if I've just convinced myself, or I have a mental condition, or who knows, maybe at some mental level I get some kind of fetishistic satisfaction, and deep down, I'm not really female where it counts.

All I do know, is that all I've ever wanted was a happy, reasonably normal life, and the only way I can do that is by transitioning, and that while hormones have not been a magic pill, they've liberated and changed me in more ways than I can count. Maybe I haven't 'really' been a girl till now, or will never be, but it's better than the alternative.

So I regret if I've intruded on a rational, civil debate with an emotional outburst, but it's just been hard reading through a lot of posts like these days. I suppose I should have just looked away, but I just had to see what people had to say.

~k

Quote from: Kaitlyn on July 27, 2007, 03:52:53 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:28:48 PM
Would you tell your doctor his diagnosis is wrong because he never 'experienced' your condition firsthand?

Maybe I've missed the point... and I'm over reacting. But I'm sorry, but I would like a clear answer on this...

Are you saying that you're a qualified medical professional, with the appropriate education and experience, to make the sweeping, judgmental, and hurtful statements you've made across the board over the past weeks?

I know... I know I'm not very feminine. I've had a couple guy friends, and not many female ones. I was geeky, aggressive, analytical, argumentative, as a young teen. I played video games, and gorged on science books and magazines. I'm majoring in engineering, after all. My mom always told me how insensitive and cold I am, how I wasn't noticeably feminine as a child.

I don't know how my brain is. I don't know if its feminine or masculine. Or if hormones have helped or changed it. And you know...? That hurts. It hurts to not be sure if I'm really a "woman", by yours, or anyone else's standards, let alone my own. I don't know if I've just convinced myself, or I have a mental condition, or who knows, maybe at some mental level I get some kind of fetishistic satisfaction, and deep down, I'm not really female where it counts.

All I do know, is that all I've ever wanted was a happy, reasonably normal life, and the only way I can do that is by transitioning, and that while hormones have not been a magic pill, they've liberated and changed me in more ways than I can count. Maybe I haven't 'really' been a girl till now, or will never be, but it's better than the alternative.

So I regret if I've intruded on a rational, civil debate with an emotional outburst, but it's just been hard reading through a lot of posts like these days. I suppose I should have just looked away, but I just had to see what people had to say.

~k

Whoa Whoa Whoa  You got me all wrong, lady. I'm no doctor, I just play one on TV :laugh: That was just an analogy,
that 'personal experience' doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the medical field. Should men be barred from practicing gynecology? After all they have no 'personal experience'.

I do study every condition I or a someone I know has to the fullest. Reading all the literature, interrogating countless people with the same condition or similar. I eat, drink, and sleep that condition until I know all the ins and outs.
I also study psychiatry as a pasttime.

I don't recall ever debating you on any topic, let alone the past few weeks. I apologize if I've inadvertently said something that upset you.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 04:20:13 PM

---

Still no wood sprite or stately mare.
You girls rollicking together in some posey infested field or some such?
The wispy wood sprite reclining on a mushroom, trading intimacies with the butterflies, the dignified mare shaking off her bridle, taking this rare opportunity to race the wind, wild and free.

I'm good at math & chemistry.  I have to be.  My job involves both.  I'm as well competitive, not very emotional & I'm into Judo.  My world has just ended.  I'm not a woman!  ::)

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:45:01 PM
Hmmm Interesting. Since posting this, I notice there have been no further posts or arguments from the ladies in question.
Hiding in red-faced embarrassment are we?
Alright, you willowy, wispy, wood sprite and you super dignified, highly sensitive, stately mare - come out, come out, wherever you are!!

Oh, I see that missed that one because you split the topic at the same time and I was also posting at that time.  I'll address it now.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 02:46:41 PM
So far, there are two ladies posting in this thread that I can't for the life of me figure why they're debating this with me. Because this issue has no bearing on them whatsoever. They must be coming to the defence of other ladies for whom this is an issue.

Seriously, these two ladies trip my detector bigtime. Every post of their's is like a car alarm going off -
Woo woo wooo, eek, eek, eek, nt, nt nt STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!

For it to trip out like that on me, there's no way they haven't always been female. From birth. No way in hades they didn't think, feel, and act like women before HRT (whether they know it or not)
Estrogen does not trip my detector. And I've had ftms who've been on T for years trip my detector with that same message STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!
If HRT really does all you people claim, why are there testosterone oozing ftms tripping my freakin detector?!? And what of the estrogen drenched mtfs who think and behave like Tony Soprano?!?

*smile*  You make some good points here (at last).  I think we have been both saying the same thing, but miscommunicating.  I agree that the basic underlying thought patterns are very untouched by estrogen.  However, what I didn't agree with is how you have diminished the mental effects of HRT when you have never experienced them yourself.  I did not know how extensive the mental changes were myself until I started it.  What I think happens is that estrogen only amplifies preexisting mental attributes of the brain.  If there is nothing female in the first place, it won't do much.  If a brain is more female, the change will go much further.

I *know* I don't act male.  I know that I never did act completely male.  In fact, when I came out of denial, I was almost instantly able to drop many of the "male" behaviors because they were artificial.  However, I experienced other subtle changes like my visual memory increased, the amount of talking I did increased (if you look at a history of my posts that I haven't deleted, you'll see), my speech patterns changed, my empathy increased, and yes, depression and emotions were also amplified.  Sexuality went down and then eventually came back up again.  These changes didn't occur immediately, but they did subtly slipped in.

Oddly enough, my parents would swear that I have never acted feminine in my life. ::)

Damn! Tried to quote you and hit the modify button. I'm sorry.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:45:01 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:20:33 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM
Here's the main idea I am hearing from you, which I disagree with:

Hormones have no absolutely no effect other than making a person more emotional/sexual.  FALSE They DO affect you more than these 2 effects.  You could only know this if you experienced HRT yourself.

As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

Would you tell your doctor his diagnosis is wrong because he never 'experienced' your condition firsthand?

I don't like you telling me that you know me and what goes on inside my head better than I know myself.  What credentials do you have?

Uh...when did I say that? I hope you didn't think I was calling you mental or something. I was debating the topic, not you.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 06:27:45 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
I don't like you telling me that you know me and what goes on inside my head better than I know myself.  What credentials do you have?

Uh...when did I say that?

Hmm, let's review, shall we?  I started off describing *my* personal experience with hormones.  Then:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:05:31 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 12:24:14 PM
Well, I speak from personal experience.  You speak from you observations and theories.

Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:12:14 PM
And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucigenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:20:33 PM
As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

At this point, you have strongly implied that I hallucinated and was seeing things that were not there.


In conclusion:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 04:57:14 PMI'm no doctor, I just play one on TV :laugh:

Since you are not a doctor (and I'm certainly not one of your "patients"), you have absolutely no credibility--especially regarding HRT--in the subject matter and so it's just your very biased "opinion" that my personal experience is wrong, which based on nothing but you own guesses about me.

I have not been following this topic, but here are just a few coppers I shall toss into the pool...

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
In fact, when I came out of denial, I was almost instantly able to drop many of the "male" behaviors because they were artificial.

My anger was the exact same; I knew that was artificial but I didn't know what else to do at the time. I am SO glad that is gone.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
However, I experienced other subtle changes like my visual memory increased, the amount of talking I did increased

I am more verbose now as well, (imagine that!), and I THINK more coherent on average, albeit I think I still sound like I am out of my mind way to often. (Probably more so now really, but ^*shrug* my life isn't the same as it was then so it is not a fair comparison really.)

My hearing changed I believe, and something of visual changed; as well as facial recognition for me; That part is ... strange really.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
, my speech patterns changed, my empathy increased,

I have not noticed any changes of either really. My speech pattern has changed some but I think something of that should be attributed to concious effort however.

Empathy? Everything still hurts, that one isn't new. (But that is also the depression filtering also; it's not like empathy is a bad thing because really it is a wonderful attribute but... ^*sigh* sure hurts.)

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
yes, depression and emotions were also amplified.

I am not sure if my emotions have amplified rather they are more fluid and ... more free. I would not say MORE just a lot less on solid ground. Course, I don't think anything of being in tears one moment and not the next; Odd actually now that I think of it but ^*shrug* that was like totally natural so, yeah whatever.

As for depression though, meh, something(s) have happened and.. yeah, it's big, it's back, an it's made as all get out! Er no that is the monster from outer space but , yeh, depression is very mean with very large teeth now. An, oh joy of joys, is getting worse for me.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
These changes didn't occur immediately, but they did subtly slipped in.

I am in total agreement.



Anyway, just a few coppers for the wishing well...

Quote from: Kimberly on July 27, 2007, 07:27:29 PM
I have not been following this topic, but here are just a few coppers I shall toss into the pool...

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
In fact, when I came out of denial, I was almost instantly able to drop many of the "male" behaviors because they were artificial.

My anger was the exact same; I knew that was artificial but I didn't know what else to do at the time. I am SO glad that is gone.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
However, I experienced other subtle changes like my visual memory increased, the amount of talking I did increased

I am more verbose now as well, (imagine that!), and I THINK more coherent on average, albeit I think I still sound like I am out of my mind way to often. (Probably more so now really, but ^*shrug* my life isn't the same as it was then so it is not a fair comparison really.)

My hearing changed I believe, and something of visual changed; as well as facial recognition for me; That part is ... strange really.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
, my speech patterns changed, my empathy increased,

I have not noticed any changes of either really. My speech pattern has changed some but I think something of that should be attributed to concious effort however.

Empathy? Everything still hurts, that one isn't new. (But that is also the depression filtering also; it's not like empathy is a bad thing because really it is a wonderful attribute but... ^*sigh* sure hurts.)

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
yes, depression and emotions were also amplified.

I am not sure if my emotions have amplified rather they are more fluid and ... more free. I would not say MORE just a lot less on solid ground. Course, I don't think anything of being in tears one moment and not the next; Odd actually now that I think of it but ^*shrug* that was like totally natural so, yeah whatever.

As for depression though, meh, something(s) have happened and.. yeah, it's big, it's back, an it's made as all get out! Er no that is the monster from outer space but , yeh, depression is very mean with very large teeth now. An, oh joy of joys, is getting worse for me.

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
These changes didn't occur immediately, but they did subtly slipped in.

I am in total agreement.



Anyway, just a few coppers for the wishing well...

I swear this place is infested with wood sprites. Are we in the proximity of an enchanted forest or something?
I'm choking on pixie dust.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 08:19:45 PM

---

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 06:48:29 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 06:27:45 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 05:53:25 PM
I don't like you telling me that you know me and what goes on inside my head better than I know myself.  What credentials do you have?

Uh...when did I say that?

Hmm, let's review, shall we?  I started off describing *my* personal experience with hormones.  Then:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:05:31 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 12:24:14 PM
Well, I speak from personal experience.  You speak from you observations and theories.

Doctors normally don't have 'personal experience' with the conditions they study, yet they know more than their patients.
And guess what! They speak from SURPRISE! observations and theories.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 01:12:14 PM
And as far as the reliability of 'personal experience' - a psychiatric hallucigenic patient will tell you all day that what they are seeing is real, but it doesn't mean it is. Only in their mind.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:20:33 PM
As I stated earlier, a hallucigenic mental patient will insist that what they are seeing is real, that doesn't make it so.
Absolutely no need for the doctor to have 'experienced' hallucinations to know his patient's seeing things that aren't there.

At this point, you have strongly implied that I hallucinated and was seeing things that were not there.


In conclusion:

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 04:57:14 PMI'm no doctor, I just play one on TV :laugh:

Since you are not a doctor (and I'm certainly not one of your "patients"), you have absolutely no credibility--especially regarding HRT--in the subject matter and so it's just your very biased "opinion" that my personal experience is wrong, which based on nothing but you own guesses about me.

I never made anything personal. You kept harping on 'personal experience'. All I pointed out is that that is never reliable and has absolutely no medical or scientific relevance. The hallucigenic patient was just the clearest example of this.

Uh...since when is a license to practice medicine a requirement to state your opinion? I assumed it was a given that all replies on this board are opinions.

Posted on: July 27, 2007, 08:43:20 PM

---

Quote from: Melissa on July 27, 2007, 02:57:09 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 03:45:01 PM
Hmmm Interesting. Since posting this, I notice there have been no further posts or arguments from the ladies in question.
Hiding in red-faced embarrassment are we?
Alright, you willowy, wispy, wood sprite and you super dignified, highly sensitive, stately mare - come out, come out, wherever you are!!

Oh, I see that missed that one because you split the topic at the same time and I was also posting at that time.  I'll address it now.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 02:46:41 PM
So far, there are two ladies posting in this thread that I can't for the life of me figure why they're debating this with me. Because this issue has no bearing on them whatsoever. They must be coming to the defence of other ladies for whom this is an issue.

Seriously, these two ladies trip my detector bigtime. Every post of their's is like a car alarm going off -
Woo woo wooo, eek, eek, eek, nt, nt nt STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!

For it to trip out like that on me, there's no way they haven't always been female. From birth. No way in hades they didn't think, feel, and act like women before HRT (whether they know it or not)
Estrogen does not trip my detector. And I've had ftms who've been on T for years trip my detector with that same message STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE FEMALE!
If HRT really does all you people claim, why are there testosterone oozing ftms tripping my freakin detector?!? And what of the estrogen drenched mtfs who think and behave like Tony Soprano?!?

*smile*  You make some good points here (at last).  I think we have been both saying the same thing, but miscommunicating.  I agree that the basic underlying thought patterns are very untouched by estrogen.  However, what I didn't agree with is how you have diminished the mental effects of HRT when you have never experienced them yourself.  I did not know how extensive the mental changes were myself until I started it.  What I think happens is that estrogen only amplifies preexisting mental attributes of the brain.  If there is nothing female in the first place, it won't do much.  If a brain is more female, the change will go much further.

I *know* I don't act male.  I know that I never did act completely male.  In fact, when I came out of denial, I was almost instantly able to drop many of the "male" behaviors because they were artificial.  However, I experienced other subtle changes like my visual memory increased, the amount of talking I did increased (if you look at a history of my posts that I haven't deleted, you'll see), my speech patterns changed, my empathy increased, and yes, depression and emotions were also amplified.  Sexuality went down and then eventually came back up again.  These changes didn't occur immediately, but they did subtly slipped in.

Oddly enough, my parents would swear that I have never acted feminine in my life. ::)

Actually I was referring to someone else in those posts. Two other girls who've debated me on this.
But you can join the wispy wood sprite and dignified mare in the posey covered field if you want to. :laugh:

If it means anything I commented on what Melissa said and what Melissa said alone; My comments are of how things have been for me. In essence, a data point. Nothing more nor less.

As I mentioned previous, I have not been following this topic and I do not think I shall look at it again.

Quote from: Kimberly on July 28, 2007, 09:41:12 AM
If it means anything I commented on what Melissa said and what Melissa said alone; My comments are of how things have been for me. In essence, a data point. Nothing more nor less.

As I mentioned previous, I have not been following this topic and I do not think I shall look at it again.

lol the wood sprite thing was a joke. I guess my humor doesn't come off very well. I refer to women with a certain 'aura' or 'flair' as wood sprites.

all the bloody ->-bleeped-<-s want to be pretty fairies *sigh* am i the only blood sucking deamoness?  >:D


My hrt changes, (lets bear in mind that ive only been on them 7 months.)

Physical:
massive facial fat changes
body fat changes, hips starting to grow, largely just bone growth right now
lost 4 inches from my shoulder measure, (muscle obviously)
hair grows faster
nails faster
less body hair
facial hair turning velus and dissapearing
voice has became naturally female by all accounts.
what body hair i have is softer and finer.
alcohol tollerance plumpeted, as did apetite.
lost 4 shoe sizes, probably wearing too big (parent bought) and fat.
an inch in hight lost.

mental:
music tastes have massively diversified, i was previously into hard dance and metal/goth, now i like everything from ska, folk, pop, to my old favourites.
more emotional, more firey at times, much more vivid in my feelings.
i can see more colours? (probaby seeing things [badum tisk])
empathy, deffinately.
i think about others feelings more.
im more lonely when alone.

I love being more emotional  , I love the fact that I have more intense feelings , I feel alive. I do get more depressed but that is only because my feeling of sadness and tragedy has been intensified.

I was always a bleeding heart, but estrogen made me into a huge bleeding heart

At the same time, I used to be very argumentative, now I am more concerned about reaching a compromise, or an understanding between people. Instead of changing their opinions, I think changing one's heart and allowing an open discussion and considering how other people think is more important.

That does not mean I have become any less socialist or less passionate about human rights and social/economic rights, but I just feel that being confrontational and argumentative does not always lead to anything.

In terms of my body,  I have always had a feminine figure, now it's only more feminine than before.

My butt gets a lot of comments  , that's all I have to say.
:police:

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 28, 2007, 02:57:55 PM


My butt gets a lot of comments  , that's all I have to say.
:police:

oh yeah, my arse rocks too, ive had many comments about my ass and legs, i look the sex in jeans...


Ashley: i like fairies, dont get me wrong, but thier wings get stuck in my canines...

thats where im going wrong... i rarely play with my food you see... and im usually only interested in big arteries...


R :police:

Why isn't the person with the big arrogant mouth on this thread banned? I wish i could put him on ignore.

Quote from: Diane on July 28, 2007, 05:39:36 PM
Why isn't the person with the big arrogant mouth on this thread banned? I wish i could put him on ignore.

Every board needs her resident expert. Every board needs to hear the voice of reason.

Quote from: Diane on July 28, 2007, 05:39:36 PM
Why isn't the person with the big arrogant mouth on this thread banned? I wish i could put him on ignore.

i hope to atheist god that you're talking about someone who is "male" or else that person could say the same thing about you.

i belive they mean nero, who is un ignoreable due to his global mod status...


and hes not arogant, simply challenging steriotypes loudly, for which i applaud him, and his efforts...
Nero: dont stop doin yo thing mang...

I am still sitting up in the tree and I have a big grin on my face.

Did you know you can see further from the top of a tree than from the grass?

I never said taking female hormones "creates" a female brain; however, taking hormones does effect your brain.

At two years these "mints" and assorted goodies have had profound effects on my mind. 

First the reduction of T seems to have calmed some gender anxiety.  My overall depression can still get very high.

Second the addition of E has made a very emotional person even more emotional.

These changes are influencing how I interact with the world and how the world views me.  These interactions are stored in my brain and I am different. 

Do you think my views of myself are different?  Do you think people view me different?  (Hint: Yes to both those questions.) 

You might say well that is because you look like a girl.  I do not.

I have minimal changes in my appearance.

Bottomline the world views me as a male but is viewing me different simply because I am more emotional when I interact with them.  Both males and females still talk to me.  I have always had a close bond to females emotionally but it it really close now.

But what would I know when I am sitting in the tree?

Quote from: Lori on July 26, 2007, 07:46:15 PM
I don't knoooow, (chewing gum and twirling my hair)

ROFL  ;D  You're too funny, Lori.   :D

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 03:40:51 PM

This is one of my biggest beefs with our community.
I'm just going to be frank here. The vast majority of transpeople have no clue what a man is and what a woman is.
I give up. Sorry, but I'm not climbing that ladder again. :icon_no:

Nero,

I'd go even further and say that the majority of our society has no idea either. From earliest childhood we're all force fed numerous assumptions and stereotypes regarding the "opposite sex". Others who have learned their lessons well police everyone else into conformity, or misery, for those of us who can't adapt. Throughout a lifelong, soul searching journey, I've come to an understanding of my gender as outside the binary. I'm not a man, I've known this since childhood and could never act like one, but that didn't necessarily mean that I'm a woman. I don't know what "sex" my brain is. It probably doesn't matter, I'm just me.

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on July 29, 2007, 05:56:19 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 03:40:51 PM

This is one of my biggest beefs with our community.
I'm just going to be frank here. The vast majority of transpeople have no clue what a man is and what a woman is.
I give up. Sorry, but I'm not climbing that ladder again. :icon_no:

Nero,

I'd go even further and say that the majority of our society has no idea either. From earliest childhood we're all force fed numerous assumptions and stereotypes regarding the "opposite sex". Others who have learned their lessons well police everyone else into conformity, or misery, for those of us who can't adapt. Throughout a lifelong, soul searching journey, I've come to an understanding of my gender as outside the binary. I'm not a man, I've known this since childhood and could never act like one, but that didn't necessarily mean that I'm a woman. I don't know what "sex" my brain is. It probably doesn't matter, I'm just me.

Zythyra

Sometimes I feel like that as well. I really hate being a man and know that I am not one, but I honestly don't know if I am a woman sometimes. Yeah, I said it. Boo Hoo. I still identify with being a female most of the time. Anyone who calls me an "it" will face my wrath.  >:D

QuoteSometimes I feel like that as well. I really hate being a man and know that I am not one, but I honestly don't know if I am a woman sometimes. Yeah, I said it. Boo Hoo. I still identify with being a female most of the time. Anyone who calls me an "it" will face my wrath.

Offered only binary choices, I'd rather be a woman than man, however I'd rather have more options ;D

And anyone calling me "it" or "sir" is going to experience my wrath as well  >:(

zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on July 29, 2007, 06:52:47 PM

QuoteSometimes I feel like that as well. I really hate being a man and know that I am not one, but I honestly don't know if I am a woman sometimes. Yeah, I said it. Boo Hoo. I still identify with being a female most of the time. Anyone who calls me an "it" will face my wrath.

Offered only binary choices, I'd rather be a woman than man, however I'd rather have more options ;D

And anyone calling me "it" or "sir" is going to experience my wrath as well  >:(

zythyra

I can totally relate to these comments.  However we are discussing if hormones effect your brain.  I say they influenced my behavior!  Hormones have not removed all the confusion.  There is no confusion to me if I could pick a gender and wave the magic wand which one I would pick.  The confusion for me is there are some male things I enjoy.  I will miss my strength. It sure is (was?) nice to feel safe.

Quote from: Wendy on July 29, 2007, 07:35:24 PM

Quote from: zythyra on July 29, 2007, 06:52:47 PM

QuoteSometimes I feel like that as well. I really hate being a man and know that I am not one, but I honestly don't know if I am a woman sometimes. Yeah, I said it. Boo Hoo. I still identify with being a female most of the time. Anyone who calls me an "it" will face my wrath.

Offered only binary choices, I'd rather be a woman than man, however I'd rather have more options ;D

And anyone calling me "it" or "sir" is going to experience my wrath as well  >:(

zythyra

The confusion for me is there are some male things I enjoy.  I will miss my strength. It sure is (was?) nice to feel safe.

That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means :o) they're not 'really' female.
I mean - if a cisgendered woman plays golf and has a collection of DeWalts she makes wood thingys with, she never for a moment wonders if she's not female enough. But some transwomen will wonder that, because of all the ridiculous stereotypes and finger pointing in this community.

Quote from: Nero on July 29, 2007, 07:55:05 PM
That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means :o) they're not 'really' female.
I mean - if a cisgendered woman plays golf and has a collection of DeWalts she makes wood thingys with, she never for a moment wonders if she's not female enough. But some transwomen will wonder that, because of all the ridiculous stereotypes and finger pointing in this community.

O.K.,  Nero.   I am coming down from the tree.  Tell you mom I have DeWalts... but I can't play golf.

Yes not fitting a mold bothers me greatly and adds to my confusion.  I agree that hormones do not turn a fully developed male brain into a female brain.  However if some of the wiring is different to start then hormones can help somewhat.  Removing the T seemed to help me with some of the gender confusion but I had to struggle with being without energy for a long time.

QuoteThe confusion for me is there are some male things I enjoy.  I will miss my strength. It sure is (was?) nice to feel safe.

Wendy,

My partner, who happens to have been born w/ female body, once built a house from scratch, fixes things around the house, etc. Zie says, "if guys can do it....". If you like doing something generally associated with being male, why should you have to give it up?

I felt much more vulnerable after I transitioned, and doing things like shopping at a 24 hour grocery store at 2AM haven't felt safe since.

Zythyra

Quote from: Wendy on July 29, 2007, 08:17:49 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 29, 2007, 07:55:05 PM
That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means :o) they're not 'really' female.
I mean - if a cisgendered woman plays golf and has a collection of DeWalts she makes wood thingys with, she never for a moment wonders if she's not female enough. But some transwomen will wonder that, because of all the ridiculous stereotypes and finger pointing in this community.

Tell you mom I have DeWalts...

Ha ha I knew a classy lady like you would only work with the best! :laugh:

not really, there can be male feminists. but f2ms who manbash really arnt are they?

Quote from: regina on July 29, 2007, 11:13:46 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 29, 2007, 07:55:05 PM

That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means :o) they're not 'really' female.

Hmm, this coming from the guy who said any ftm who used the word "patriarchy" isn't a real man.

Was that a joke?

ciao,
Gina M.

It was an exaggeration. That post was intended to be humorous. Men who support the feminist movement are humanists who believe in equal rights for all and probably do know and use the feminist jargon. That's not what I'm talking about. Men should support women. Men should care that women are treated equally. Men should fight for women's rights. I just see that as chivalry. Thing is though, while a man may be saddened or even full of righteous anger at the subjugation of women, a man would not bash or spew hatred toward his own gender. That would be missing the whole point.

You would be surprised at the number of ftms who have some ingrained hatred toward men. They relate to and prefer the company of women and like Rachael said, they man-bash. Constantly. They say they hate all men, and are full of all kinds of stories where men were sexist toward them and how they're violent abusers, etc etc.
There were a few posts on here a while back from ftms demonstrating this very thing. I'll see if they're still on here.

It seems nobody gives a damn about hatred toward men. I may be coming from a vastly different viewpoint than a lot of ftms who've been in the feminist movement around mostly women prior to transition. As a man and one who has almost exclusively associated with men - I take personal offense to ftms who bash men. I am highly insulted each time I hear one do it. And it's like they just take for granted that 'we were all born female, we understand *wink*'. Assuming everyone in the room or on the board comes from a similar background as them and will appreciate their rantings about men. These are the types I have a very hard time believing are men. Or if they do possess a male mind or whatever are certainly unworthy of the title man.

If you were in a room full of mtfs and they started saying horrible things about women, degrading them, talking about them the way men talk about women, giving you a full rundown on their latest conquest complete with degrading language and details about her body parts, and all this with the assumed understanding that 'we were all born male, we get it, we know how women are *wink* *wink*' - would you not be personally insulted?
Would you not be outraged?
Would you say to yourself - 'there is no way in hades these disgusting slobs are female.' I don't know nor do I give  a damn what they are, but one thing is sure they are not women.
Would you feel insulted that people see how they behave and assume most mtfs are like that?
Would the very idea of being lumped with such ogres appall you?

whats more amuseing, is the unwritten rule in #chat, that if you cant tell people they pass, then dont tell them anything. 'telling the truth (if not that they pass) is bad and makeing folk feel bad is unfair as they have suffered so much already *coughsplutterdies*

Quote from: Ell on July 30, 2007, 09:11:03 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 29, 2007, 07:55:05 PM
That's another beef I have with this community. Some TS making others feel that if they're not a female stereotype, if they have interests that aren't 'female' interests (whatever the hell that means :o) they're not 'really' female.

But some transwomen will wonder that, because of all the ridiculous stereotypes and finger pointing in this community.

You're right, it is really bad when people feel that they need to bully others over to their way of thinking.

Get a grip.

Quote from: Wendy on July 29, 2007, 07:35:24 PM
However we are discussing if hormones effect your brain.  I say they influenced my behavior!  Hormones have not removed all the confusion.  There is no confusion to me if I could pick a gender and wave the magic wand which one I would pick.  The confusion for me is there are some male things I enjoy.  I will miss my strength. It sure is (was?) nice to feel safe.

There are very few facts that we know at this time.  You need less than a full hand of fingers to count them:

* Sexual arousal is positively correlated with the amount of testosterone in your system.

* A tendency to depression is positively correlated to the amount of estrogen in your system.

* Cross gender HRT changes the macroscopic structure to the brain to resemble that of the gender matching the hormones.

* Cross gender HRT does not cause changes in your cognitive performance in standardized tests.

That's it.  Until somebody does a study on other effects, the rest is just speculation.

* Sexual arousal is positively correlated with the amount of testosterone in your system. <-- so does estrogen in females, women can get horny too cant they?

* A tendency to depression is positively correlated to the amount of estrogen in your system. so all manic depressive men are full of estrogen and not just depressed? estrogen simply makes moods more vivid, not more of them.

* Cross gender HRT changes the macroscopic structure to the brain to resemble that of the gender matching the hormones.

* Cross gender HRT does not cause changes in your cognitive performance in standardized tests.i dont know, i performed better with my exams recently on hrt than when off. i was more able to sit and learn....

Quote from: Rachael on July 30, 2007, 09:36:59 AM
* Sexual arousal is positively correlated with the amount of testosterone in your system. <-- so does estrogen in females, women can get horny too cant they?

My experience agrees with yours, but scientific studies on that subject are inconclusive.

Quote from: Rachael on July 30, 2007, 09:36:59 AM
* A tendency to depression is positively correlated to the amount of estrogen in your system. so all manic depressive men are full of estrogen and not just depressed? estrogen simply makes moods more vivid, not more of them.

Definition of Correlation (http://economics.about.com/cs/economicsglossary/g/correlation.htm)

Quote from: Rachael on July 30, 2007, 09:36:59 AM
* Cross gender HRT does not cause changes in your cognitive performance in standardized tests.i dont know, i performed better with my exams recently on hrt than when off. i was more able to sit and learn....

As with all statistics, your mileage may vary.

There are men who do support feminism though. (supposedly) No one that I've ever heard of but that's what I'm constantly told everytime I rant about a militant feminist ftm.
I'm not sure if I believe that though. But that's what I'm always told everytime I tell a man bashing ftm off.
Or could be they're just defending themselves for expressing blatant female behaviour. ha ha ha
I think you nailed it, Gina.
So now you agree with me that men do not rant for hours about the patriarchy or man-bash?

I knew plenty of men, who even between each other, no women involved, did debate women's right and issues quite seriously. Maybe its just the crowd you people are around. Not all men are pigs, I swear!

Quote from: Keira on July 30, 2007, 10:10:51 PM

I knew plenty of men, who even between each other, no women involved, did debate women's right and issues quite seriously. Maybe its just the crowd you people are around. Not all men are pigs, I swear!

Well, that's good to hear. Men should care about equal rights for women. While I do strongly believe there are careers women should not do, I think everything else should be equal. I mean I do have a mother after all.

Quote from: regina on July 30, 2007, 10:09:21 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 30, 2007, 09:50:15 PM
There are men who do support feminism though. (supposedly) No one that I've ever heard of but that's what I'm constantly told everytime I rant about a militant feminist ftm.
I'm not sure if I believe that though. But that's what I'm always told everytime I tell a man bashing ftm off.
Or could be they're just defending themselves for expressing blatant female behaviour. ha ha ha
I think you nailed it, Gina.
So now you agree with me that men do not rant for hours about the patriarchy or man-bash?

Man bashing I don't know about. I do believe there are a lot of ftm-self-identified people who are somewhere on that spectrum, but aren't really male (and they'd probably say the same about mtfs. It's complex.) And they'd probably pummel me senseless if they heard me say that.

What I'm still trying to figure out is... do most ftms not hang with natal men because they're disgusted by 'male expression, attitudes and male culture' or is it because they're intimidated by natal men? Whatever it is... it's amazing how many ftms identify as queer and stay within the queer ghetto environment or, even more specifically, within the world of queer women. So is this a political choice or a result of intimidation/fear? Ftms out there... agree/disagree?

ciao,
Gina M.

SHE SHOOTS! SHE SCORES! :eusa_clap:

So you really have witnessed this type of phenomenon. The intimidation/fear thing is something I never considered.
I just assumed that the ones who male bash and pontificate (thanks for the word Kiera, perfect word for guys like this)
about the patriarchy. Common subjects vary from how men have displayed sexism towards them or abused them, etc.
I just always assumed this was ingrained behaviour from their involvement in underground militant feminist groups.
I could never for the life of me get why these types would even transition even if they really were male - they didn't associate with males except for other ftms who shared their man-hating ways, and identify as heterosexual men yet stay in the all queer female world as you've also noticed. I just can't understand why they want to be men if they dislike men and don't wish to be around them. And it was like I could not be comfortable around them and they got upset with everything I talked about (it was always sexist, misogynist, inappropriate, crude, etc) Even when all I was talking about was sex! What in sam hill is 'misogynistic' about sex?

One other phenomenon I've noted with these types is a severe genital preoccupation. They are most often stone butch and on top of that are too disgusted to even touch themselves (meaning they don't even know what an orgasm is ::)). Do most stone butch lesbians go to that extreme? I doubt it. They seem to be highly sexed.
And then there's the bizarre ordeals when you try go out anywhere with them. You go to a strip club expecting to relax and have a good time and after a few beers they start getting weird on you. 'I gotta piss man.' You point them toward the men's. Off they go. Then a few minutes later come back. 'I haven't mastered this stand to pee device. I'm gonna piss all down my legs.'
'Then go in the stall.'
'I can't do that. I pee standing up.'
'If you've gotta piss, you'll sit your ass on the seat and piss!' Goes off back to the men's and by now you're like , this dudes freakin weird. Comes back like an hour later smelling of piss with damp spots on his trousers.
You finally start to relax, and then all of a sudden, he's offended by the music. You're like what the hell's wrong with it? He says he can't bear to hear another note because of all the obscenities and degradation of women. 'I've got to leave. I got to go home now'. It's freakin 11:30!

So yeah these types are just...well I don't have the words.

So you think maybe their behaviour is due to being intimadated/afraid by natal males? Why? If they are male, they would naturally relate better to males, don't you think?

so wait, they are at a STRIP CLUB and are offended by the music? because it is degrading to women? *boggle*  :o

Quote from: regina on July 31, 2007, 01:11:57 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 30, 2007, 11:12:22 PM

So you think maybe their behaviour is due to being intimadated/afraid by natal males? Why? If they are male, they would naturally relate better to males, don't you think?

And my other question: why do so many ftms (but not all) seem to stay within queer communities instead of being a man within the larger society. Is it a political choice, a 'folks like us' or are they intimidated by being men within the larger culture and all that entails. From my outsider's perspective, it seems so limiting (and I feel the same way about transwomen who only hang out with each other... I don't get it.) Is my original assumption not fair or incorrect... am I way off base? I wanna know.

Yeah it's definitely either one of two things. The 'folks like us' thing as you said. They just would rather hang with those who share a common bond and understanding  or trans men and women who don't integrate into greater society with natal males and females are intimidated. And that makes me think they are too insecure in their manhood/womanhood. And may believe they are less than natal males and females. You know, may think they're not worthy or something.

Quote from: regina on July 31, 2007, 01:11:57 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 30, 2007, 11:12:22 PM

So you think maybe their behaviour is due to being intimadated/afraid by natal males? Why? If they are male, they would naturally relate better to males, don't you think?

From what I've seen, if they identify as straight, it seems like most of their partners identify as lesbian, bi, or queer identified ex-lesbians (sometimes sarcastically known here as 'has-be-ans!).

I think sometimes this can't be helped and for some guys it's not really a choice so much as a lot of non-trans straight men and women won't date a TS. And since most ftms don't have bottom surgery, a lot of strictly straight women won't date them because they have a vagina and she's not 'gay'.
But dating a queer woman doesn't mean  he should hold exclusively to that community and not venture out. I don't understand that.

Quote from: regina on July 31, 2007, 01:11:57 AM
It is pretty rare that I see ftms who are comfortable with natal men,

Really? I was hoping it was just the ones in my area. From what I've seen on the ftm boards I frequent, I think you're right though. Especially about the under 40 set. Most of the later transitioners seem more laid back and easy going.
The kind of guys you could actually enjoy kicking it with. Come to think of it, the few ftms I felt I had clicked with were later transitioners. I wonder what that's about. Only on the net though. :( Seems all the ones in my area are early transitioners. Or perhaps for whatever reason the later transitioners integrate into society easier?
I'm curious about that now.

Quote from: Nero on July 30, 2007, 11:12:22 PM
So you really have witnessed this type of phenomenon. The intimidation/fear thing is something I never considered.

"Intimidation" and "fear?"  That's my reality.  I've been accused of male-bashing, but I don't hate them.  I'm scared of them.  I've had too many bad experiences.

Quote from: Nero on July 31, 2007, 02:25:26 AM

Quote from: regina on July 31, 2007, 01:11:57 AM
It is pretty rare that I see ftms who are comfortable with natal men,

Really? I was hoping it was just the ones in my area. From what I've seen on the ftm boards I frequent, I think you're right though. Especially about the under 40 set. Most of the later transitioners seem more laid back and easy going.
The kind of guys you could actually enjoy kicking it with. Come to think of it, the few ftms I felt I had clicked with were later transitioners. I wonder what that's about. Only on the net though. :( Seems all the ones in my area are early transitioners. Or perhaps for whatever reason the later transitioners integrate into society easier?
I'm curious about that now.

I suspect you're right there Nero. The young guys all seem kind of uncomfortable with bio men. Older bio guys too, don't have quite so much macho posturing; they don't seem to feel the need to prove themselves male like young guys do, so they're probably an easier group to hang out with. The crowd I run with are loggers and fishermen, all around my age (40's), and it's been pretty easy for me to fit in.

Also you're probably not going to meet many of the guys who are comfortable in the rest of society because we pretty well just blend in. I don't really feel the need to go to support groups or anything like that. I've got friends. Which is probably why neither you nor Regina sees FtM guys who are comfortable with bio guys. The ones who are are hanging out with bio guys, having a beer and talking about fishing, cars, and women.

Dennis

Quote from: Dennis on July 31, 2007, 12:18:14 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 31, 2007, 02:25:26 AM

Quote from: regina on July 31, 2007, 01:11:57 AM
It is pretty rare that I see ftms who are comfortable with natal men,

Really? I was hoping it was just the ones in my area. From what I've seen on the ftm boards I frequent, I think you're right though. Especially about the under 40 set. Most of the later transitioners seem more laid back and easy going.
The kind of guys you could actually enjoy kicking it with. Come to think of it, the few ftms I felt I had clicked with were later transitioners. I wonder what that's about. Only on the net though. :( Seems all the ones in my area are early transitioners. Or perhaps for whatever reason the later transitioners integrate into society easier?
I'm curious about that now.

I suspect you're right there Nero. The young guys all seem kind of uncomfortable with bio men. Older bio guys too, don't have quite so much macho posturing; they don't seem to feel the need to prove themselves male like young guys do, so they're probably an easier group to hang out with. The crowd I run with are loggers and fishermen, all around my age (40's), and it's been pretty easy for me to fit in.

Also you're probably not going to meet many of the guys who are comfortable in the rest of society because we pretty well just blend in. I don't really feel the need to go to support groups or anything like that. I've got friends. Which is probably why neither you nor Regina sees FtM guys who are comfortable with bio guys. The ones who are are hanging out with bio guys, having a beer and talking about fishing, cars, and women.

Dennis

It's kind of ironic isn't it. It's always assumed the earlier transitioners have such an easier time integrating. But it seems the other way around with ftm. But men are different from women.

Yeah, I guess you wouldn't notice the ones who blend in since most pass after a few years of T.
And you're probably right, the guys who are more comfortable with themselves probably just do the required number of group sessions to get their letters and then they're out of that scene. So there probably are younger guys who are cool, I just don't see them.
It would be really nice to meet some in my area without that big chip on their shoulder that don't get all weird on you after an hour or so of hanging out. They could be 20 or 80, I've always gotten along with all ages, just as long as you can actually hang with them. 

does seem odd that the ballence is inverted, m2fs blend easier earlier, and f2ms later. this is more likely social conditioning of men and women, than hormonal issues though.

3rd world?


as an english 20yo girl, i will tell you now, i may know some trans people (8 in total i belive ive ever met) but i solely hang out with normal people, if someone happens to be trans, then fine, but its not my friendship base. i have male and female friends. i party, i dance, i drink, i socialise.  so far, ive yet to not fit in better... i enjoy the company of other girls (natal yes) and i also enjoy being with men. although, hey, one person doesnt change your view that all young trans girls are un blending...

Quote from: regina on July 31, 2007, 02:39:54 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 31, 2007, 02:25:43 PM
does seem odd that the ballence is inverted, m2fs blend easier earlier, and f2ms later. this is more likely social conditioning of men and women, than hormonal issues though.

And I'm not sure that's altogether a fact... it's possible. I'm a late transitioner and most of my friends are natal women. I know some young transwomen who only seem to hang out with young transwomen.

I have a theory on this. Early or late transitioner - some are more comfortable around natal members of their gender.
And some seem to almost go to extremes to avoid hanging with natal members of their gender.
And I can hear the flames now >:D
I believe those who naturally relate to natal members of their target gender better than they do everyone else are just naturally more male or female than someone who doesn't relate well to natal members of their target gender.

Get your flaming arrows lit >:D
I just don't believe everyone who transitions is their target gender. Especially those who might as well be an alien from Uranus around natal members of their target gender. They've no clue to relate to their target gender, they may as well be speaking a foreign language.
Why someone like this would transition? No clue. You'll have to ask them.

totally agree. some people who transition ARNT TRANSEXUAL (shock) who tell shrinks what they want to hear, becase they think they are right. and the doctor is wrong. then come unstuck and either go back, or are so deep into thier little shell that they keep pretending, yet get dragged into the trans community so heavily, or end up living at thier computer.
feel free to fame me too.  or negative rep me. i dont care. this is a truth, good or bad. and i accuse nobody.

Quote from: Nero on July 31, 2007, 03:28:00 PM
I just don't believe everyone who transitions is their target gender. Especially those who might as well be an alien from Uranus around natal members of their target gender. They've no clue to relate to their target gender, they may as well be speaking a foreign language.
Why someone like this would transition? No clue. You'll have to ask them.

And these are the ones the SoC is supposed to weed out.  It just does a really bad job of it.

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 01, 2007, 10:05:32 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 31, 2007, 03:28:00 PM
I just don't believe everyone who transitions is their target gender. Especially those who might as well be an alien from Uranus around natal members of their target gender. They've no clue to relate to their target gender, they may as well be speaking a foreign language.
Why someone like this would transition? No clue. You'll have to ask them.

And these are the ones the SoC is supposed to weed out.  It just does a really bad job of it.

Yeah it really is a shame. Wish they would employ psychics at the gender clinics to decipher if someone is lying to get a letter or if someone is just very confused about themselves.

Quote from: Nero on August 01, 2007, 10:33:36 AM
Yeah it really is a shame. Wish they would employ psychics at the gender clinics to decipher if someone is lying to get a letter or if someone is just very confused about themselves.

Uff dah!  Shades of Minority Report.

Quote from: morticia on August 01, 2007, 01:01:30 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 01, 2007, 10:33:36 AM
Yeah it really is a shame. Wish they would employ psychics at the gender clinics to decipher if someone is lying to get a letter or if someone is just very confused about themselves.

Why the hell would someone lie about this?  I can't imagine that anyone would WANT to put themselves through all this stuff.
There's nothing at all fun or cool about this, it's HELL. 
That's just crazy..

One word, Fantasy.

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 01, 2007, 10:05:32 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 31, 2007, 03:28:00 PM
I just don't believe everyone who transitions is their target gender. Especially those who might as well be an alien from Uranus around natal members of their target gender. They've no clue to relate to their target gender, they may as well be speaking a foreign language.
Why someone like this would transition? No clue. You'll have to ask them.

And these are the ones the SoC is supposed to weed out.

Why?

Suitability for transition isn't supposed to be a test of femininity, passability or matching some therapist's opinion on how a "real woman" should or shouldn't act.

The idea, IMHO, is just to make sure someone truly knows what they're getting themselves into, seeing the ENTIRE range of consequences of a transition and not just lost in a short-sighted "It'll be fun to dress up every day!" sorta fantasy.

Not that I have any personal objections to someone doing it for those reasons, but it's probably much more likely that they'll have more troubles once they switch teams and realize it was really a package deal, and they don't WANT the other 99% of the order.

~Kate~

Quote from: Lori on August 01, 2007, 01:12:17 PM

Quote from: morticia on August 01, 2007, 01:01:30 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 01, 2007, 10:33:36 AM
Yeah it really is a shame. Wish they would employ psychics at the gender clinics to decipher if someone is lying to get a letter or if someone is just very confused about themselves.

Why the hell would someone lie about this?  I can't imagine that anyone would WANT to put themselves through all this stuff.
There's nothing at all fun or cool about this, it's HELL. 
That's just crazy..

One word, Fantasy.

Yep. People have lied and rewrote their histories to get SRS. Then regretted it.

Quote from: Kate on August 01, 2007, 01:55:44 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 01, 2007, 10:05:32 AM
And these are the ones the SoC is supposed to weed out.

Why?

You said it yourself:

Quote from: Kate on August 01, 2007, 01:55:44 PM
Not that I have any personal objections to someone doing it for those reasons, but it's probably much more likely that they'll have more troubles once they switch teams and realize it was really a package deal, and they don't WANT the other 99% of the order.

the trans communities view of 'therapists are out to get you' has made a culture where you must fake and pretend to be a perfect ->-bleeped-<- to get treated. people who genuinely belive they are. yet arnt, fake it, and wonder why the doctor never told them it was just a midlife crisis..
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on August 01, 2007, 02:55:18 PM
the trans communities view of 'therapists are out to get you' has made a culture where you must fake and pretend to be a perfect ->-bleeped-<- to get treated. people who genuinely belive they are. yet arnt, fake it, and wonder why the doctor never told them it was just a midlife crisis..
R :police:

And they come in with the attitude of "I'm only here because I have to be," which makes for a lot of therapists who stop caring.  You'd think that if somebody is going to spend all that money on therapy they would want to get more out of it than just a piece of paper.

some people only are because they need to be... some people can transition and be sane you know....

i know im female, i dont need someone to analize why, i just want sodding treatment.

R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on August 01, 2007, 03:49:49 PM
some people only are because they need to be... some people can transition and be sane you know....

There's a common stereotype that therapy is only for the mentally disturbed.  People with that attitude seldom get anything out of therapy.

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 02, 2007, 09:12:16 AM

Quote from: Rachael on August 01, 2007, 03:49:49 PM
some people only are because they need to be... some people can transition and be sane you know....

There's a common stereotype that therapy is only for the mentally disturbed.  People with that attitude seldom get anything out of therapy.

Exactly!

And I must admit I went into therapy with the same attitude of, "just give me what I need, I don't need to be psychoanalyzed and judged by some so-called expert!"

And you know what? They DO help. My therapy wasn't at all what I expected. We mostly talk about my fears surrounding transitioning, and how to best work through them, etc. It's not about proving I'm TS or anything like that. More about issues that come up like, "Hey, I have this wedding I have to go to... and I'm terrified people will laugh at me... how can I deal with that?" Or "I need to come out at work... what approaches have worked well for your other clients?" And so on.

~Kate~

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 02, 2007, 09:12:16 AM

Quote from: Rachael on August 01, 2007, 03:49:49 PM
some people only are because they need to be... some people can transition and be sane you know....

There's a common stereotype that therapy is only for the mentally disturbed.  People with that attitude seldom get anything out of therapy.

er? yes? i dont WANT anything out of therapy, but my referal and diagnosis as requireing teh knobchop....


R :police: