Susan's Place Transgender Resources

If someone who isn't trans (but might think they are) takes hormones, what would be the result?  Some kind of immediate realization that something is horribly wrong, or would the hormones make the person think they are trans after all?

Hormones don't make you feel trans, in many cases they will help relieve dysphoria in trans people. I have only heard of studies, none that I can verify, that when cis people take hormones opposite to their identified gender, they do not feel great at all.

Cool.  Just checking...:)

I also think it would be interesting to definitively know what happens to non-trans people when they take hormones. I know that a lifetime of producing my own testosterone wasn't enough to make me want to be male, so I can only assume that if a cis-male took estrogen it shouldn't do anything to make them want to be female, but I don't know of any real research that would confirm that assumption. If such a thing existed, it might actually help convince my parents I really am trans, because that's something I'm still struggling with.

Quote from: Miyuki on July 19, 2014, 06:43:18 AM
...it might actually help convince my parents I really am trans, because that's something I'm still struggling with.

That's what I was getting at, although you phrased it so much more clearly.  I too am trying to avoid the situation where I say the HRT is making me feel better (comfortably feminine) and my SO says, "Well duh, of course taking estrogen would make you feel more feminine.  It would make anyone feel more feminine and it's not proof that you're actually trans."

Well it doesn't make me feel more feminine anyway - it just makes me feel normal.

It is a darn good question.  I would love to see the results of such a study.  The concept of a female structured brain requiring estrogen to function smoothly gives me great solice- but I have not researched it.

Quote from: Brenda E on July 19, 2014, 07:15:24 AM
That's what I was getting at, although you phrased it so much more clearly.  I too am trying to avoid the situation where I say the HRT is making me feel better (comfortably feminine) and my SO says, "Well duh, of course taking estrogen would make you feel more feminine.  It would make anyone feel more feminine and it's not proof that you're actually trans."

Brenda, I'm really, really troubled by this.

No on, NO ONE, should ever ask you to "prove" you're trans.

Anyone who does, doesn't understand and needs SERIOUS education.

Whether you are trans or not is UNIMPORTANT. What's important is that you feel the need to move your physical and/or social being in a female direction. That you'll be very unhappy if you don't.

That's pretty much the ONLY test for being trans. There is no other proof.

Why is your SO demanding proof of your being trans?

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 19, 2014, 08:38:46 AM
Brenda, I'm really, really troubled by this.

No on, NO ONE, should ever ask you to "prove" you're trans.

Anyone who does, doesn't understand and needs SERIOUS education.

Whether you are trans or not is UNIMPORTANT. What's important is that you feel the need to move your physical and/or social being in a female direction. That you'll be very unhappy if you don't.

That's pretty much the ONLY test for being trans. There is no other proof.

Why is your SO demanding proof of your being trans?

you hit that right on the nail! In my opinion if you think your trans then your probably trans... Its such a subjective thing that's different for everyone...You definitely shouldn't have to "prove" it!

Quote from: Annabolton on July 19, 2014, 08:43:41 AM
You definitely shouldn't have to "prove" it!

Yes, I agree...and was thinking EXACTLY the same. Just do what feels right and screw those that need proof.

I imagine if a non-trans person took hormones, it would be a lot like what I felt going through the wrong puberty.

Hormones mess with your head. Like, I always felt like my mind was programmed to work one way, and yet in real life it never worked like that. I was way shorter-tempered than I wanted to be. I was never able to cry when I felt like I should be crying. I looked in the mirror and the big male shape with the body hair and the male musculature just felt wrong. The male sex drive felt wrong. I felt short-tempered, constantly on-edge, never able to truly relax, unnaturally obsessive with things, and almost like I was constantly fighting against myself. And I had no idea that hormones would fix these things. But they did. All of them.

Hormones made me feel normal again, and made me feel like the circuits in my head were finally "right" again, for the first time since I was 12 years old.

So yeah... I imagine for someone who takes the hormones of the opposite sex, it would make them too feel like their mind was working "wrong," their body was becoming "wrong," and like the wiring was off for some reason.

I really don't know.  Maybe you should ask one of the people here who detransitioned for that very reason.  I'm sure they can give you more insight than we who feel are on the right path with hormones.  But even then I bet it'll be different with every person.

People who aren't trans of course will question and scrutinize every little aspect about you if you give them the oppurtunity.  Especially those close to you.  I'd imagine because they want you to be the same person you've been for years, however miserable you were.  A lot of people don't like change.  Its unfortunate, but if they see you are happier for transistioning and are still being a jerk....well then they've got some issues of their own.

You're all exactly right.  I shouldn't have to prove it to anyone.  I think my SO is genuinely looking out for me and trying to make sure I'm not making a mistake, and having me justify my feelings in rational terms is her way of dealing with this logically.  It's hard, though, to put these feelings into words, and it's hard to figure out any logical tests for my own trans-ness that seem appropriate.

The hormones were supposed to be something conclusive.  They've worked; I like them - a lot!  But instead of making peace with the diagnosis that I'm definitely trans because only a trans girl would react to hormones in such a positive way, it's become another situation where she's worried that the hormones would have the same pleasant effect on any guy who takes them.

I can't win.  But as you both rightly say, I need to stop playing by someone else's rules.  I'm the one who decides who I am, not anyone else, and I have nothing to prove.

When I started hrt i felt relief like a nail had been pulled out of an old wound. Feminity came out with time as i let myself out little by little. A lot was learned behaviors, things little girls learn in there youths i had to learn at the age of 30 something.

So a non trans taking hormones might feel the exact opposite, meaning like i felt before (putting back the nail in the wound)

Quote from: Brenda E on July 19, 2014, 09:25:08 AM
You're all exactly right.  I shouldn't have to prove it to anyone.  I think my SO is genuinely looking out for me and trying to make sure I'm not making a mistake, and having me justify my feelings in rational terms is her way of dealing with this logically.  It's hard, though, to put these feelings into words, and it's hard to figure out any logical tests for my own trans-ness that seem appropriate.

The hormones were supposed to be something conclusive.  They've worked; I like them - a lot!  But instead of making peace with the diagnosis that I'm definitely trans because only a trans girl would react to hormones in such a positive way, it's become another situation where she's worried that the hormones would have the same pleasant effect on any guy who takes them.

I can't win.  But as you both rightly say, I need to stop playing by someone else's rules.  I'm the one who decides who I am, not anyone else, and I have nothing to prove.

Tell her to take testosterone for 2 weeks and watch her face as you tell her that

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Tell her to take testosterone for 2 weeks and watch her face as you tell her that
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Wouldn't recommend but good reply!

Actually, they do.

Males are given estradiol and antiandrogens to reduce prostate swelling, and certain types of prostate cancer.

In nearly all cases the male body feminizes as would be expected from what we MTF's refer to as HRT.  However, the males who receive this treatment, who have not been diagnosed as transsexual, regularly feel depressed, sad, and angry from the loss of their manhood.  The depression can become quite severe and require anti-depressants in addition to the cross hormone therapy.

The do not become calm, they become quite agitated.  They do not feel more feminine, they feel that they have been deprived.  Conversely, trans women often times become more calm and serene.

It is not conclusive proof of being trans, but it is statistically significant.

Unfortunately, there is no common cross hormone therapy for women that has any clinical basis, so it is difficult to say if this would be true for trans men.

-Sandy

Quote from: Brenda E on July 19, 2014, 09:25:08 AM
You're all exactly right.  I shouldn't have to prove it to anyone.  I think my SO is genuinely looking out for me and trying to make sure I'm not making a mistake, and having me justify my feelings in rational terms is her way of dealing with this logically.  It's hard, though, to put these feelings into words, and it's hard to figure out any logical tests for my own trans-ness that seem appropriate.

The hormones were supposed to be something conclusive.  They've worked; I like them - a lot!  But instead of making peace with the diagnosis that I'm definitely trans because only a trans girl would react to hormones in such a positive way, it's become another situation where she's worried that the hormones would have the same pleasant effect on any guy who takes them.

I can't win.  But as you both rightly say, I need to stop playing by someone else's rules.  I'm the one who decides who I am, not anyone else, and I have nothing to prove.

You're not asking my advice, so please ignore everything I say if it's not helpful.

IMO trying to please your SO by convincing her you're trans is not helpful. Her concerns come from a place of anxiety and are not going to be calmed by any demonstrations of your "transness". You can, of course, educate her what it means to be trans, how transgender is diagnosed (pretty much, if you want to transition and can't think of any other reason why, you're trans), etc. But in the end, cisgender people have such a horror of transitioning, that they will generate this anxiety that we'll be very unhappy. You can't control/change/fix that. That's up to her.

As I said above, please ignore all this if it's not helpful.

Suzi, you're always helpful. ;)

  From what I gather, HRT in the wrong person would feel much like how I did without it.  In a normally-functioning system it would throw off the balance similar to what happens at menopause or 'manopause'.  It would also result in the person feeling they were losing their identity due to physical changes rather than gaining or confirming their identity as in a transperson.  (I would describe my experience in transition and on HRT more as "gaining" or "learning" my identity starting out on a strong hunch.)

Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 19, 2014, 09:02:36 AM
Hormones mess with your head. Like, I always felt like my mind was programmed to work one way, and yet in real life it never worked like that. I was way shorter-tempered than I wanted to be. I was never able to cry when I felt like I should be crying. I looked in the mirror and the big male shape with the body hair and the male musculature just felt wrong. The male sex drive felt wrong. I felt short-tempered, constantly on-edge, never able to truly relax, unnaturally obsessive with things, and almost like I was constantly fighting against myself. And I had no idea that hormones would fix these things. But they did. All of them.

Hormones made me feel normal again, and made me feel like the circuits in my head were finally "right" again, for the first time since I was 12 years old.

  I think this sums up my own experience well-enough that I won't have to repeat my own story in great detail.  As a natural-born skeptic I went into HRT with high hopes but no expectations.  The results were so abruptly strong in turning my mind and body around that I cannot dispute the need for HRT in my system and can say with great certainty that there is little to no placebo-effect.  I went from the complete bottom of despair and discomfort to calm, cheerful and overwhelmingly physically at peace in my nerves and my gut.

  Removing my depression restored my ability to look forward to the future instead of just dragging myself through day-by-day.  I have quite literally left behind a very different person.  I used to feel I looked so awkward smiling that it appeared a strained expression and eventually I just looked miserable all the time.  Now I feel fully natural cracking a big grin and do it often.

  Since I only know my own experience I can't be certain of how HRT would affect a non-transperson but I have to believe it would be along the lines of reversing my transition process.  I can't imagine that being anything other than definitively negative for a non-transperson.

Quote from: Brenda E on July 19, 2014, 04:57:37 AM
If someone who isn't trans (but might think they are) takes hormones, what would be the result?  Some kind of immediate realization that something is horribly wrong, or would the hormones make the person think they are trans after all?

First thing is boobs.  If they are not trans then they probably won't like having boobs.  I love mine even as small as they are.  It also mellows you out which I also love.  The only thing that bothers me is that I have lost some hand eye coordination and I have trouble visualizing things in my mind when I'm doing CAD work. 

Quote from: Brenda E on July 19, 2014, 04:57:37 AM
If someone who isn't trans (but might think they are) takes hormones, what would be the result?  Some kind of immediate realization that something is horribly wrong, or would the hormones make the person think they are trans after all?

OK, I realize this is an N of 1, but Alan Turing did not do so well on estrogen. Back in the dark ages (the 1950s) in England, he was convicted of homosexuality (yes, it was a crime then) and to avoid prison, he accepted estrogen injections. About two years into his imposed HRT, he developed a profound fondness for cyanide.

I feel the same as Grace, it didn't make me feel more feminine, it makes me feel normal.

Now that you mention it, I remember hearing about that. I first learned about Alan Turing in a computer science class, but they usually don't discuss that part of his story... But why on earth did they think it was a good idea to give someone who was homosexual estrogen? If anything I would have thought they'd try to increase his testosterone levels, or something like that.

Regarding Turing, I think it was a case of using oestrogen to kill the deviant sex drive, or something along those lines.  It wasn't too long ago that HRT was given willy nilly to women as the fix it all drug.  (Look up some stuff on HRT history, the mind boggles reading some of it)

Sad to say, Turing was an example of how poor practice can arise due to poorly understood mechanics of both "disease" and "treatment".

And I mean "disease" as in the historical context before someone accuses me of anything.

I definantly know where your coming from with this issue before my x wife left me for a "real man " as she puts it she would always ask me to prove that I am trans, I told her that I have no real proof other than the feelings that I have inside me telling me that something isn't right with me and that I am not the person that I was supposed to be. Now she just calls me crazy and thinks that I am a freak but her opinions don't really bother me I am who I am and that is that I am happier within myself since starting to transition so I must be heading in the right direction.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 19, 2014, 07:17:45 AM
Well it doesn't make me feel more feminine anyway - it just makes me feel normal.

Ditto this ^^______^^!

Allie :icon_flower:

Quote from: Allyda on July 20, 2014, 03:47:49 PM
Ditto this ^^______^^!

Allie :icon_flower:

Agreed!

This is truly awful that one's medical professional would "fight" you for "proof-positive" you are trans....sounds like a medical professional from the Dark Ages, and maybe consider switching to a more CORRECT and enlightened medical professional ASAP if you continue to "fight" with her...

To me, it almost sounds like she is similar to a "fundamental religious advocate" who insists that is "against God's will to change what God gave you for a physical gender."  Hogwash!

Something like the Boy Scouts trying to "talk gay teenagers out of being gay by engaging in more masculine activities."  Hogwash!

Or the Iranians, who apparently support trans surgery, but only as a "cure" for homosexuality.  Hogwash!

I am only 5 weeks in, but I am seeing astounding physical and mental results here that I have discussed in much more detail in the Introductions section.

WOW...do I feel great!

WOW...do I feel happy.

If we breast development forces me to "come out" at my University professor position, I suppose I will just have to deal with that.

The only people I have "come out" to so far, are my 6 year old daughter, and my beautiful genetic girlfriend.  She is 32B and age 26 while I am age 56, and I want that size or more!!!  She painted my toenails bright red a week ago, so obviously she accepts me.

I would guess that someone who is an alpha-male on hormones would be terrified of no longer being able to have much in the way of erections, and terrified in the daily obsession about "getting p---y, to get laid."

I have almost no erections now just 5 weeks in, and I am good with that.  I still feel strongly attracted to the breasts of females...but now I want those breasts for myself!

I would think an alpha male would feel terrified.

Female hormones made the gay British scientist in the early 1950s suicidal, because the British government had a Dark Ages medieval mentality at that time.  He wanted to take cyanide to kill himself he felt so "wrong."

I would suppose that my unbelievably positive reaction to 5 weeks of strong medical grade E and P probably simply confirms I am heavily female, even if I feel that my life as a male has been reasonable.

I feel SO great, especially when taking micronized progesterone.  WOW I am sometimes mildly euphoric with happiness...

I solve problems now with calm and INTUITIVE FEEL instead of just pure masculine analysis...

Wow wow wow wow wow do E and P make my physical body and my mind feel RIGHT!!!

QuoteDitto this ^^______^^!

Ditto this ditto.

I had a conversation with a cis male friend explaining how it felt to be transgender- how I knew I wasn't male.
It really brought home how not male I was.  It really freaked at the idea of losing erections and growing boobs.

Quote from: Emmaline on July 21, 2014, 05:58:35 PM
I had a conversation with a cis male friend explaining how it felt to be transgender- how I knew I wasn't male.
It really brought home how not male I was.  It really freaked at the idea of losing erections and growing boobs.

This is so true. When I tried talking to my brother about my plans to get an orchiectomy, he really started to freak out about it. The thought of having testicles surgically removed made him feel physically ill. It made me realize that I don't think about my body the same way a cis male would at all, because for me an orchiectomy is on the same level as an operation to remove a cancerous growth from my body.

Quote from: Sandy on July 19, 2014, 09:47:14 AM
Actually, they do.

Males are given estradiol and antiandrogens to reduce prostate swelling, and certain types of prostate cancer.

In nearly all cases the male body feminizes as would be expected from what we MTF's refer to as HRT.  However, the males who receive this treatment, who have not been diagnosed as transsexual, regularly feel depressed, sad, and angry from the loss of their manhood.  The depression can become quite severe and require anti-depressants in addition to the cross hormone therapy.

The do not become calm, they become quite agitated.  They do not feel more feminine, they feel that they have been deprived.  Conversely, trans women often times become more calm and serene.

It is not conclusive proof of being trans, but it is statistically significant.

Unfortunately, there is no common cross hormone therapy for women that has any clinical basis, so it is difficult to say if this would be true for trans men.

-Sandy

I would fall under that category.  Prostate problems was the trigger in my case to start HRT for my dysphoria and to treat the prostate, same meds.  Being transgender going into it, I had the calming effect occur.  Female HRT for prostate and testicular cancers is usually the last resort treatment.  It is usually applied to men over 70, few younger.  It is the younger cis males ones who have more difficulty handling the changes caused by the HRT.  Some menopausal women and men over 50 would experience traits of the other gender.  In older men, the T levels drop naturally and some grow "moobs", experience a lower sex drive/erectile dysfunction and depression. Some women experience hair growth on the face and chest due to the lower E and P levels.  Tiny amounts of T applied to some post menopausal women is known to increase their sex drive. That study is still ongoing. 

  Joelene

I've been looking all over the internet for answers to this question. Not much luck, does anyone know of any studies done? My therapist, and I had a few, all wanted me to start HRT to furthr confirm what we knew I was. The answer was provided by 2 therapists in that we are born with estrogen and testorone brain receptors and in Trans people the dominant brain receptors are not driven by their preferred hormones. Thus when a MTF like me starts HRT it is pure bliss, our estrogen starved brain receptors are finally getting their way. I did have a very high T count (over 1,000) and that made the change wonderful. Today its all part of my normal new perspective and I am ver so happy.

So I don't know the answer but my therapist considered this to be the Litmus test of a TG, would love to read studies - maybe I will ask my therapist for some research references tomorrow when I chat with him.

Well now I'm curios. I mean, hormones more kinda just change how you look mostly, but not sure if they can severely change your feelings. But then again, scientifically speaking, one is usually trans due to having unbalanced hormones, and to much from the opposite sex. So perhaps it can change your thinking. Would be neat to find out, but testing on a non-trans person would be hard, considering they probably wouldn't want to volunteer, cuz if it works, they probably don't want to be trans :/

Quote from: Sam314 on July 22, 2014, 12:24:48 AM
Well now I'm curios. I mean, hormones more kinda just change how you look mostly, but not sure if they can severely change your feelings. But then again, scientifically speaking, one is usually trans due to having unbalanced hormones, and to much from the opposite sex. So perhaps it can change your thinking. Would be neat to find out, but testing on a non-trans person would be hard, considering they probably wouldn't want to volunteer, cuz if it works, they probably don't want to be trans :/

Hormones do more than just change your appearance.. They do also have a neurological influence.

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 21, 2014, 11:51:59 PM. . . my therapist considered this to be the Litmus test of a TG . . .

Mine too.  I was never really convinced at all that there was any physiological basis for my trans issues (I thought I was just a pervert who let his fantasies take control), but after taking estrogen for a week, I'm absolutely convinced that there were some kind of receptors that were starved of estrogen.  The speed at which I felt better (even on the lowest dose) was crazy!  So yes, I think that if your trans feelings are caused by something chemical missing in your system, a bit of estrogen to use as a diagnostic tool is a quick and effective means to cut through the years of therapy and get a more conclusive, scientific answer.

Not to diminish the relevance of therapy, because I would be dead right now without it, but once the patient has demonstrated feelings of gender dysphoria, a trial of low dose HRT is a good follow up step.

It's hard to uncouple feelings of relief and expectations from the estrogen itself - though I did hear of double-blind placebo tests giving significant results,  from my own experience it goes beyond my expectations- effects such as color sense, emotional responses beyond the range I was aware of possible, and most significantly clear thinking and lifting of fatigue.  I have to say it does give weight to the receptor theory in my mind.

  My HRT started with Spiro first so it is much harder for me to isolate estrogen effects.  The best I can describe it is reducing my T-level immediately calmed my nerves and relieved my near-chronic fatigue and daily stomach discomfort.  Basically testosterone was acting like a poison in my system and was also driving my metabolism out of control.  Feeling physically better combined with the t-drop cleared my depression.  Erections have not gone away entirely although that 'area' is notably more relaxed almost all of the time.  This should continue to improve as my dosage in progressively increased.

  When I later started Estrace there was no pronounced change.  It really just slowly filled in the rest of the missing pieces in transitioning my body.  It does serve to boost my mood though as I'm significantly more cheerful and also more tolerant of stressful and confrontational situations.  In short order my nipples started hurting strongly and this has never quite stopped throughout my subsequent breast development.  I just had an increase in my E dose and they are hurting more again.  Thankfully this is the only discomfort I experience any longer.

  Other changes I have noticed in the long term are facial shape, body hair thinning and reduction, lost scalp hair restoring, testicle shrinkage and minor body weight gain.

"(I thought I was just a pervert who let his fantasies take control" Brenda, thats exactly how I felt. For me the mental changes were and still are occuring and its all been good. Being a female starts with the mental changes that HRT brings, the physical side happens naturally.

Quote from: Emmaline on July 22, 2014, 06:08:07 AM
It's hard to uncouple feelings of relief and expectations from the estrogen itself - though I did hear of double-blind placebo tests giving significant results,  from my own experience it goes beyond my expectations- effects such as color sense, emotional responses beyond the range I was aware of possible, and most significantly clear thinking and lifting of fatigue.  I have to say it does give weight to the receptor theory in my mind.

YES YES YES YES YES

right on your comments about "emotional responses beyond the range I was aware was possible" THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

I hadn't even thought of a way to express this part of the mental change until I read your post...

I now can FEEL this...just 5 and a half weeks into this journey on P (micronized) and estradiol valerate.

Johanna

Hiding tucked away for years from the world was the true me. I always saw myself as who I am today the pretty Lady deep with in me in the shell that would not fit. My T-levels was low for a time and it never help that I was given more! I felt worst! Now I feel like myself and watching the butterfly slowly coming out into this world is the best!!! ;D

Quote from: LadyStaci on July 24, 2014, 10:54:48 PM
Hiding tucked away for years from the world was the true me. I always saw myself as who I am today the pretty Lady deep with in me in the shell that would not fit. My T-levels was low for a time and it never help that I was given more! I felt worst! Now I feel like myself and watching the butterfly slowly coming out into this world is the best!!! ;D

I know exactly how you feel Ladystaci

So I spoke with my therapist on this subject and the response was that in most cases a cis male that takes female hormones would in most cases have NO negative impact. However, they would not experience the euphoria that most TG experiences. As far as the plecebo effect it would only be true if before you started HRT, the mental euphoria was explained or that you read it somewhere and you wanted it to work so much. Personally, I had no idea that the mental changes would be such a major part and I just thought that it was all about physical changes. Hope this helps

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 25, 2014, 04:23:11 AMI had no idea that the mental changes would be such a major part and I just thought that it was all about physical changes.

Interesting.  I too wasn't expecting the mental changes to be so significant.  A few weeks ago, even after being on spiro for a while, I would wake up and being trans would be the first thing I would think about and it would be an uncomfortable feeling that lasted all throughout the day.  From a few days after taking low-dose estrogen, it's like I've forgotten I'm trans.  The mental calming effects are just absolutely incredible, far above and beyond anything I could have possibly imagined beforehand, and far above and beyond what I think any kind of antidepressant or mood stabilizer could have provided.  Such a simple, cheap, effective way to immediately take the edge off the pain caused by being trans.

The physical changes definately made me feel different in my head too

I dont what exactly is caused by HRT, physical changes making me happier or just placebo: the idea I am actually having HRT already is a little boost

Hard to dissect really