Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Something that's been bothering me that I can't quite wrap my head around. Whenever I ask if I pass--both here and elsewhere--I get completely mixed reactions. I know that's to be expected because different people have different opinions, but I've never seen opinions on passability vary to the same extent as with me.

For example: some people have said that I completely pass and they would have had no idea I was trans if I hadn't told them, other people say I'm 100% masculine and don't pass at all. Sometimes I get gendered female even in male mode, other times I get gendered male. Even down to individual features I get mixed opinions. I have relatively large lips and most of the time people say that they're very feminine, but on a few occasions people have said they're masculine precisely because they're large. Some people have said that the fact that I have pronounced cheekbones makes me look masculine, while other people have said the very same feature is feminine and attractive. Some people have said that my nose is very feminine and attractive, while others have said that it looks masculine and prevents me from passing.

This just seems really weird that I would get such a mixed range of opinions. Again, I understand that different people have different opinions, but it seems abnormal that they would vary this much. I'm not really looking for an evaluation on whether or not I pass, I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea of why this happens? Is there something abnormally androgynous about my face or something? It's very confusing and frustrating :(

Here's a few pics to give some idea...

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJYOr2Y8.jpg&hash=a77613fc5d657abc18d04e38c6ec16f42087f844)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHaraIzk.jpg&hash=a4269bec8a554a75b20e86c4d140517a820d3b2e)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9J1wyAh.jpg&hash=156ef4fefc648efebc8f46cb9612072b35c43a82)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCHiizIn.jpg&hash=ecf6e0c536e5effa3543a664e9dcca40d4c2d1be)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqTF2Z6S.jpg&hash=b8aa4059ed8932bb5a1ba4cb6fff23cbdd079751)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FlGYQYup.jpg%3F8893&hash=82147cf7710122170dee0e102a39026bbdf473ff)

First, you are beautiful.

Second, different cultures have different ideas of femininity and masculinity. Therefore, people who were raised in different cultures will perceive your appearance differently. This would explain the different reaction that you are noticing.

Here is the link to an article in which beauty standards were tested in different countries.

http://www.complex.com/style/2014/06/25-countries-photoshop-journalists-photo-to-make-her-beautiful (http://www.complex.com/style/2014/06/25-countries-photoshop-journalists-photo-to-make-her-beautiful)

Quote from: Brooke777 on July 26, 2014, 08:36:06 PM
First, you are beautiful.

Second, different cultures have different ideas of femininity and masculinity. Therefore, people who were raised in different cultures will perceive your appearance differently. This would explain the different reaction that you are noticing.

Thank you...but then wouldn't that apply to everyone? Like I said, I don't see this happening with other people who post here, despite the fact that the people who are evaluating them are presumably from a variety of cultures. It seems to indicate that it's something about my face in particular :/

I think the difference would be if you smile, your face is too serious in your pictures which is making me perceive you as male.

Quote from: Neospector on July 26, 2014, 08:47:41 PM
I think the difference would be if you smile, your face is too serious in your pictures which is making me perceive you as male.

I've heard a number of people say that. But that confuses me as well because don't most women who were born women also have serious faces sometimes? And wouldn't it be perceived as weird if I was constantly smiling in public?

This is true, and there is no obligation to smile for women. I will say though that, yes while you are quite pretty an overly serious face might be interpreted as angry, glum or scary by some. I realised I used to get that reaction from people which changed when i switched to at least a neutral, slightly happy look.

Quote from: riversong on July 26, 2014, 08:41:15 PM
Thank you...but then wouldn't that apply to everyone? Like I said, I don't see this happening with other people who post here, despite the fact that the people who are evaluating them are presumably from a variety of cultures. It seems to indicate that it's something about my face in particular :/

This does apply to everyone. About 95% of the time I pass. However, there are a few people who clock me. Especially when they see how strong I am. I can still lift far more that cis females of my same size. Plus, I weigh a lot more than women who are larger than me due to all of my muscle.

You have a very pretty face,
I think what would help most is keeping a more happy facial expression? Raising your eyebrows and smiling helps a lot, for me anyways

Quote from: riversong on July 26, 2014, 08:52:35 PM
I've heard a number of people say that. But that confuses me as well because don't most women who were born women also have serious faces sometimes? And wouldn't it be perceived as weird if I was constantly smiling in public?

Some women have it easy but you have to make do with what you have.  :-\
I don't mean smile all the time but have a more friendly demeanor in your facial expression and lips.

Firstly I am seeing female andro from these photos here. Now for your question.

I think some of us are being a little bit biased from our surrounding areas, age, pre concived beliefs on what you should do if you are male or female. (not all guy's walk around with a scowl on there face, and not all girls walk around with big cheesy grins on there faces).

When we ask for advice on do we pass and people suggest this and that all they see is a photo of us. Part of the trick to passing is to blend into the surrounding area, it would be impractical to wear a top with spaghetti straps when the sun is out but there is a high wind chill factor.

As for your lips they can go either way straight up in photos they can be perceived as masculine, add make up to your face they can be a godsend you have more to enhance to achieve fuller more feminine lips.

(now excuse me I'm going to bend over and light and darkened room, because sometimes I believe the light shine out my. ...

Quote from: Neospector on July 26, 2014, 09:03:04 PM
Some women have it easy but you have to make do with what you have.  :-\
I don't mean smile all the time but have a more friendly demeanor in your facial expression and lips.

What I meant though was that not smiling doesn't seem to be an exclusively male trait.

Quote from: immortal gypsy on July 26, 2014, 09:03:43 PM
Firstly I am seeing female andro from these photos here. Now for your question.

I think some of us are being a little bit biased from our surrounding areas, age, pre concived beliefs on what you should do if you are male or female. (not all guy's walk around with a scowl on there face, and not all girls walk around with big cheesy grins on there faces).

When we ask for advice on do we pass and people suggest this and that all they see is a photo of us. Part of the trick to passing is to blend into the surrounding area, it would be impractical to wear a top with spaghetti straps when the sun is out but there is a high wind chill factor.

As for your lips they can go either way straight up in photos they can be perceived as masculine, add make up to your face they can be a godsend you have more to enhance to achieve fuller more feminine lips.

(now excuse me I'm going to bend over and light and darkened room, because sometimes I believe the light shine out my. ...

What is it that's making you perceive me as andro rather than full female, if you don't mind my asking? The thing that confuses me is that everything that I've read says that larger lips are more feminine, and I haven't ever read or heard anyone say that it's masculine, and yet when I see my pictures I can somewhat see how someone could perceive them as masculine and I've sometimes found myself even wishing they were smaller :/

Gah, it's so weird...

Sometimes little things like a touch of make up, hair style will make all the difference in the world.

Quote from: riversong on July 26, 2014, 09:12:54 PM

What is it that's making you perceive me as andro rather than full female, if you don't mind my asking? The thing that confuses me is that everything that I've read says that larger lips are more feminine, and I haven't ever read or heard anyone say that it's masculine, and yet when I see my pictures I can somewhat see how someone could perceive them as masculine and I've sometimes found myself even wishing they were smaller :/

Gah, it's so weird...

From the photos you are closer to female then andro, if you came to my counter I would mam you better lighting and more of a body shot more of an honest answer and critique. Don't worry about your lips, in life we all have some aspect about our body that we don't like.  If your lips are the only thing that are bothering you (and just now I saw women at the shops with lips of all sizes), you're golden

Quote from: immortal gypsy on July 26, 2014, 09:59:57 PM
From the photos you are closer to female then andro, if you came to my counter I would mam you better lighting and more of a body shot more of an honest answer and critique. Don't worry about your lips, in life we all have some aspect about our body that we don't like.  If your lips are the only thing that are bothering you (and just now I saw women at the shops with lips of all sizes), you're golden

Well, it's not really something I don't like, since all my research says that large size makes them feminine, and I've never heard of a woman being less attractive because of their lips. I was just saying that I was confused as to how someone could see them as masculine for being large and full.

When you are serious or angry usually your browridge seems more masculine, while if you are happy you tend to open your eyes wider and reduce the appearance of the brow ridge.

Emily makes a really good point. I don't think it is as much about smiling or wahtnot but a general expression of openess. Like widening your eyes, raising your brow a little.

Yup, first thing I thought is that you dropped something...

YOUR SMILE!!!

Pick it up, don't looks so serious, give everyone something to smile about

I agree with everyone about the whole smile thing, 6 months ago (I hadn't even started to make progress in transition yet) I never really smiled and at that time i thought I'd never pass but after looking at girls i realized smiling, or at least being sorta happy looking, and opening my eyes more to have a more wide eyed look helped a lot. Like it feels strange at first but eventually it just becomes how your face rests and it helps a lot!

You look really good.  You have a mix of somewhat masculine/feminine features which I think the right clothes/accessories could push perception toward one or the other.  Your bowline is slightly masculine, but your eyes very feminine.  The rest of your face is very androgynous leaning toward feminine.  I agree with others, just a small smile may help slide the perception toward the feminine.  Try tensing your cheeks into a very slight smirk and I think any chance of being perceived as male would be nullified

The girls are right about the smile thing.  You don't need to have a grin like a Cheshire Cat all the time, but... ok actually maybe I could put it a slightly different way - you need to soften your face.  You can still look serious but in a gentler, softer sort of way, if that makes any kind of sense?  I didn't see any mention about if you're on HRT or anything yet, but if you're not (or you're just starting), then that will most likely do most of that work for you too :)  In the meantime try what the others said about the subtle "girly smirk" because it does help a lot :)

What I think is really the problem though is your hairline - it's got that male squareness to it and exposes a lot of your forehead (female hairlines are lower and have a more rounded shape to them, whereas mens are higher like yours and either square or M shaped (my unfortunate affliction, so you're doing better than me at least lol :P ).  If I cover up your forehead / hairline with my hand, I'd say you pass 100% in all those pics in spite of that "hard" look I mentioned above.

FFS of course can sort out the hairline and in your case it certainly doesn't need much work, but in the meantime you may have to consider working in some bangs to your hairstyle to cover the hairline / forehead.  Alternatively there are clever visual tricks you can do with makeup to distract attention away from it.

As for exactly why you get such mixed opinions, it may be as simple as the pics you're showing people / the pics various individuals are choosing to focus on.  In the pics you've posted here, some of them you'd pass and others you wouldn't.  Take these two for example:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCHiizIn.jpg&hash=ecf6e0c536e5effa3543a664e9dcca40d4c2d1be)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqTF2Z6S.jpg&hash=b8aa4059ed8932bb5a1ba4cb6fff23cbdd079751)

In the first one, the light source is behind you and you're silhouetted quite a bit.  The contrast between your forehead and hairline is quite low which makes it a lot less noticeable, which in turn (if what I've said above is correct), makes you look more fem.  In the second one the light is in front and the contrast between your forehead and hairline is quite high, highlighting the more masculine shape of your hairline far more than in the first pic.  If I'd chosen to focus on that first pic, I'd have said you pass.  If I'd focused on the second, I'd say you wouldn't.  Hope that makes sense :)

Anyway hope that helps and point you in the right direction hun <3 *hugs* <3 :D

Quote from: riversong on July 26, 2014, 08:26:51 PM
Something that's been bothering me that I can't quite wrap my head around. Whenever I ask if I pass--both here and elsewhere--I get completely mixed reactions. I know that's to be expected because different people have different opinions, but I've never seen opinions on passability vary to the same extent as with me.

For example: some people have said that I completely pass and they would have had no idea I was trans if I hadn't told them, other people say I'm 100% masculine and don't pass at all. Sometimes I get gendered female even in male mode, other times I get gendered male. Even down to individual features I get mixed opinions. I have relatively large lips and most of the time people say that they're very feminine, but on a few occasions people have said they're masculine precisely because they're large. Some people have said that the fact that I have pronounced cheekbones makes me look masculine, while other people have said the very same feature is feminine and attractive. Some people have said that my nose is very feminine and attractive, while others have said that it looks masculine and prevents me from passing.

This just seems really weird that I would get such a mixed range of opinions. Again, I understand that different people have different opinions, but it seems abnormal that they would vary this much. I'm not really looking for an evaluation on whether or not I pass, I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea of why this happens? Is there something abnormally androgynous about my face or something? It's very confusing and frustrating :(

Here's a few pics to give some idea...

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJYOr2Y8.jpg&hash=a77613fc5d657abc18d04e38c6ec16f42087f844)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHaraIzk.jpg&hash=a4269bec8a554a75b20e86c4d140517a820d3b2e)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9J1wyAh.jpg&hash=156ef4fefc648efebc8f46cb9612072b35c43a82)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCHiizIn.jpg&hash=ecf6e0c536e5effa3543a664e9dcca40d4c2d1be)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqTF2Z6S.jpg&hash=b8aa4059ed8932bb5a1ba4cb6fff23cbdd079751)


[img width=3 those 00 height=400]http://i.imgur.com/lGYQYup.jpg?8893[/img]

In all honesty, you will probably need FFS in order to pass all of the time time, as your forehead and browline have male traits, but that's just my opinion, go with what your heart is telling you.   

Quote from: KiraD on September 24, 2014, 04:35:11 PM
The girls are right about the smile thing.  You don't need to have a grin like a Cheshire Cat all the time, but... ok actually maybe I could put it a slightly different way - you need to soften your face.  You can still look serious but in a gentler, softer sort of way, if that makes any kind of sense?  I didn't see any mention about if you're on HRT or anything yet, but if you're not (or you're just starting), then that will most likely do most of that work for you too :)  In the meantime try what the others said about the subtle "girly smirk" because it does help a lot :)

What I think is really the problem though is your hairline - it's got that male squareness to it and exposes a lot of your forehead (female hairlines are lower and have a more rounded shape to them, whereas mens are higher like yours and either square or M shaped (my unfortunate affliction, so you're doing better than me at least lol :P ).  If I cover up your forehead / hairline with my hand, I'd say you pass 100% in all those pics in spite of that "hard" look I mentioned above.

FFS of course can sort out the hairline and in your case it certainly doesn't need much work, but in the meantime you may have to consider working in some bangs to your hairstyle to cover the hairline / forehead.  Alternatively there are clever visual tricks you can do with makeup to distract attention away from it.

As for exactly why you get such mixed opinions, it may be as simple as the pics you're showing people / the pics various individuals are choosing to focus on.  In the pics you've posted here, some of them you'd pass and others you wouldn't.  Take these two for example:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCHiizIn.jpg&hash=ecf6e0c536e5effa3543a664e9dcca40d4c2d1be)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqTF2Z6S.jpg&hash=b8aa4059ed8932bb5a1ba4cb6fff23cbdd079751)

In the first one, the light source is behind you and you're silhouetted quite a bit.  The contrast between your forehead and hairline is quite low which makes it a lot less noticeable, which in turn (if what I've said above is correct), makes you look more fem.  In the second one the light is in front and the contrast between your forehead and hairline is quite high, highlighting the more masculine shape of your hairline far more than in the first pic.  If I'd chosen to focus on that first pic, I'd have said you pass.  If I'd focused on the second, I'd say you wouldn't.  Hope that makes sense :)

Anyway hope that helps and point you in the right direction hun <3 *hugs* <3 :D

Oh thanks for the help :) I felt like my hairline was bad, but I wasn't entirely sure. I can feel it starting to come forward now after having been 3 weeks on hormones, but it'll probably be a while before it grows in enough to be noticeable. I hope some more time will make the difference :)

Quote from: missymay on September 24, 2014, 05:45:57 PM
In all honesty, you will probably need FFS in order to pass all of the time time, as your forehead and browline have male traits, but that's just my opinion, go with what your heart is telling you.   

Aren't you supposed to wait until you've been on HRT for a while before deciding if FFS is necessary? I think I've heard that a few times from people. I believe it was like a year on hormones that you should wait, but I'm not entirely sure.

It's true that HRT will feminize your face, but it will not change bone, and there's not much soft tissue covering our forehead and brow bone areas, so these areas usually aren't changed very much. 

Quote from: riversong on September 24, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Oh thanks for the help :) I felt like my hairline was bad, but I wasn't entirely sure. I can feel it starting to come forward now after having been 3 weeks on hormones, but it'll probably be a while before it grows in enough to be noticeable. I hope some more time will make the difference :)

Aren't you supposed to wait until you've been on HRT for a while before deciding on FFS? I think I've heard that a few times from people.

Yes, your best bet is to take things step by step, see a Dr., get on HRT, smile more, and then decide for yourself the direction you wish to go from there

Hugs

Quote from: missymay on September 24, 2014, 06:25:19 PM
It's true that HRT will feminize your face, but it will not change bone, and there's not much soft tissue covering our forehead and brow bone areas, so these areas usually aren't changed very much.

Oh yea, I know that, I'm just going by one of the posters said above--that hairline is also a big factor when it comes to the forehead. It's been coming forward a bit for the few weeks I've been on HRT :) How much it will come forward will just be a matter of luck, I guess...

Quote from: riversong on September 24, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Oh thanks for the help :) I felt like my hairline was bad, but I wasn't entirely sure. I can feel it starting to come forward now after having been 3 weeks on hormones, but it'll probably be a while before it grows in enough to be noticeable. I hope some more time will make the difference :)

Don't mention it hun, glad I could help :)

And don't get me wrong, it's not "bad" - at least it's not the M shape which is the male extreme.  More than anything it's the corners and the general height that gives it away, but even then it's only on a subtle level.

Quote from: riversong on September 24, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Aren't you supposed to wait until you've been on HRT for a while before deciding if FFS is necessary? I think I've heard that a few times from people. I believe it was like a year on hormones that you should wait, but I'm not entirely sure.

Yes, definitely wait for HRT to do its work and settle down first.  That way you can see exactly what needs more work and to what extent.  Otherwise you could end up making changes that aren't needed / not making changes that are needed etc, and no one wants to have any more surgery than is absolutely necessary.  I only mentioned it because - as far as I'm aware - HRT doesn't do much in changing your hairline.  Then again that's just what I've read - I'm very early in this whole process myself so I could be wrong there :) x