Susan's Place Transgender Resources

What Is a Woman?



The dispute between radical feminism and ->-bleeped-<-.

BY MICHELLE GOLDBERG


http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2


On May 24th, a few dozen people gathered in a conference room at the Central Library, a century-old Georgian Revival building in downtown Portland, Oregon, for an event called Radfems Respond. The conference had been convened by a group that wanted to defend two positions that have made radical feminism anathema to much of the left. First, the organizers hoped to refute charges that the desire to ban prostitution implies hostility toward prostitutes. Then they were going to try to explain why, at a time when transgender rights are ascendant, radical feminists insist on regarding transgender women as men, who should not be allowed to use women's facilities, such as public rest rooms, or to participate in events organized exclusively for women.

The dispute began more than forty years ago, at the height of the second-wave feminist movement. In one early skirmish, in 1973, the West Coast Lesbian Conference, in Los Angeles, furiously split over a scheduled performance by the folksinger Beth Elliott, who is what was then called a transsexual. Robin Morgan, the keynote speaker, said:

I will not call a male "she"; thirty-two years of suffering in this androcentric society, and of surviving, have earned me the title "woman"; one walk down the street by a male transvestite, five minutes of his being hassled (which he may enjoy), and then he dares, he dares to think he understands our pain? No, in our mothers' names and in our own, we must not call him sister.

Such views are shared by few feminists now, but they still have a foothold among some self-described radical feminists, who have found themselves in an acrimonious battle with trans people and their allies. Trans women say that they are women because they feel female—that, as some put it, they have women's brains in men's bodies. Radical feminists reject the notion of a "female brain." They believe that if women think and act differently from men it's because society forces them to, requiring them to be sexually attractive, nurturing, and deferential. In the words of Lierre Keith, a speaker at Radfems Respond, femininity is "ritualized submission."

WOW. ??? This is just personal opinion but I believe that radical feminist hate femininity so much that we as transwomen who embrace and love it so much that they resent us leading to hate? I don't know how else to put it.

What do radical feminist think of transmen? Do they share the same hate for them as they do for us?

Quote from: Jess42 on July 30, 2014, 10:28:06 AM
WOW. ??? This is just personal opinion but I believe that radical feminist hate femininity so much that we as transwomen who embrace and love it so much that they resent us leading to hate? I don't know how else to put it.

What do radical feminist think of transmen? Do they share the same hate for them as they do for us?

I wonder the same thing Jess.  Why hate on us transwomen?  There are so many bigger issues that feminists can work on.  I mean just off the top of my head, workplace inequality. 

I wouldn't put a lot of effort into wondering why they do or say anything about us. The more our community tries to fight it and sometimes how some in our community respond to it just seems to make things worse. Best to just smile, shrug and leave groups like that to their own devices for the most part.

Quote from: Lara the Lover and the Fighter on July 30, 2014, 10:31:21 AM
I wonder the same thing Jess.  Why hate on us transwomen?  There are so many bigger issues that feminists can work on.  I mean just off the top of my head, workplace inequality.

I would really be interested in seeing their opinion on transmen though and that was something that seemed to be left out. I don't get like this too many times but I just really don't get it.

But I definately find this extremely disturbing:
"I will not call a male "she"; thirty-two years of suffering in this androcentric society, and of surviving, have earned me the title "woman"; one walk down the street by a male transvestite, five minutes of his being hassled (which he may enjoy), and then he dares, he dares to think he understands our pain? No, in our mothers' names and in our own, we must not call him sister"

WTH does this woman think we go through? She really said we enjoy the negativity? My freakin' god. I don't know if they are feminist or sadist or a little bit of both. I just get really disgusted when people go out of thier way to make someone feel bad about themsevlves or just blatently show their hate for others.

I transitioned to stealth over 40 years ago and spent the vast majority of my working life in a non-traditional (for a woman) occupation. I can not count the number of times I have pursued anti-discrimination action against companies, individuals, and employers, actions ranging from the local to the national level and I have seen the number of women in non-traditional fields rise from a fraction of a percent to almost 25% in some areas. I would like to think that my actions opened the doors for other women in SO many areas!

One of the reasons I never "came out" publicly in the last 40 years is that I fear that would undo some of the progress I have made in women's rights.

To hear Rad-Fems imply that I am not a woman because I was born abnormal just cuts to the quick. Fortunately I know better!

Quote from: Northern Jane on July 30, 2014, 11:37:24 AM
To hear Rad-Fems imply that I am not a woman because I was born abnormal just cuts to the quick. Fortunately I know better!

Yeah it does kind of hurt don't it. You may have done even more than they have to further women's equality because I seriously don't see how people like this can even be taken seriously.

Quote from: Robin Morgan
No, in our mothers' names and in our own, we must not call him sister.

Well, that's a relief.  I don't think we'd enjoy being related to them, even notionally.

Growing up male, I always found it weird that I was expected to show solidarity with people who treated me horribly and whose values and behavior I found abhorrent, merely because we shared certain anatomical features.

It's worth noting that a number of radical feminists are supportive of trans people.  (A few radical feminists are themselves trans.)  Feminists who are supportive of trans people (the majority, I believe) use the term "TERF" (trans-exclusive radical feminist) to describe those radical feminists who have the attitudes described in the excerpt above.

Quote from: Lara the Lover and the Fighter on July 30, 2014, 10:31:21 AMWhy hate on us transwomen? 

It's very simple. We're challenging their ideas of what it means to be a woman, and they're trying to protect their franchise.

It's the same reason some people hate gay rights, same sex marriage, abortion rights or anything else that gives freedom to others and at the same time does not take anything away from them. It's because this represents a change to their accepted ideas of what is, and they fear change.

Anyone who has ever challenged the prevailing orthodoxy has been vilified, denounced and dismissed. Same thing happened to Jesus, and look how that went down!

Quote from: Michelle-G on July 30, 2014, 02:42:27 PM
It's very simple. We're challenging their ideas of what it means to be a woman, and they're trying to protect their franchise.

It's the same reason some people hate gay rights, same sex marriage, abortion rights or anything else that gives freedom to others and at the same time does not take anything away from them. It's because this represents a change to their accepted ideas of what is, and they fear change.

Anyone who has ever challenged the prevailing orthodoxy has been vilified, denounced and dismissed. Same thing happened to Jesus, and look how that went down!

Are you trying to say there are quite a few people out there that have the incessant need to control others? Or dictate how others should live theirs or the need to define people in what they think is best? How dare you? All they have is our well being, freedom and happiness in their hate. OOPs I meant to say hearts.;) ;D

Seriously though Michelle I agree with you.

Quote from: Jess42 on July 30, 2014, 10:28:06 AM
What do radical feminist think of transmen? Do they share the same hate for them as they do for us?

We get called traitors for "trying to gain male privilege".  Because you know, transmen have so much privilege.  It's not like there's an actual serious issue with our bodies that needs to be corrected, we just hate being disadvantaged.  Others say we're always welcome to go back to being who we really are, which is such bullcrap.  I am a man, and denying that fact only made my issues worse.

Its all a load of crap.  Man, Woman, Transgender, whatever.  We are all human.  Thats all that matters.

Quote from: Lara the Lover and the Fighter on July 30, 2014, 08:21:17 PM
Its all a load of crap.  Man, Woman, Transgender, whatever.  We are all human.  That's all that matters.

True.

BUT I will say that I would separate ALL people into two groups: People that are cool, just want to live their lives and be happy. Then you have the jerks who totally suck since they seem to enjoy making trouble for the people on the other side.

I've seen quite a few people in my social circle mention this piece but I avoided reading it until now because I generally can't read anything related to this form of radical feminism without it ruining my day via a pervasive sense of dread. I spent quite a wee bit of time reading their writing in the past for the sake of awareness and the mere thought of it drains me.

This time was very different though. This time I actually laughed a little at the blatant bias and some of the ridiculous claims. From the way these radicals are portrayed as victims of censorship despite a history of using power to harm others to the way every single reference to the perspective of trans people is an obvious straw-man. The writer doesn't even attempt to hide it.

With regard to the content: While almost any violence and threats are repugnant to me, I still think it's entirely possible for one side in an argument to be totally wrong and I believe that's the case here. I value the positive things some of these radical feminists continue to do in other domains but, on the whole, they seem to be clinging to a One True Womanhood that never had any validity in the first place. In my mind, they constructed a version of sisterhood that's reliant on excluding anyone that isn't an able middle-class white woman. They cling to it despite decades of thought and experience from women of colour, disabled women, poor women, trans women, femme women, straight women, and many others. If that weren't bad enough, they extend their Western definitions to the entirety of the planet in an appalling display of supremacy.  For me, it's somewhat similar to suffragettes like Christabel Pankhurst only focusing on votes for wealthy white women and nationalism during the First World War. In a century, they've learned nothing.

If something doesn't agree with their outmoded worldview then many of them will ignore it, dismiss it, misrepresent it, or invent lies about it. For instance, if you have somebody on your side that tries to use speculation about the smell of trans women's post-GRS genitals as a legitimate argument, as Jeffreys does in Gender Hurts, then you might want to question whether you're being intellectually honest. :P

Personally, I'll stick with forms of feminism that are constantly trying to adapt to diversity of experience and embrace it rather than erase it.

QuoteFirst, the organizers hoped to refute charges that the desire to ban prostitution implies hostility toward prostitutes.

Apologies for the aside but this quote from the article made me laugh with shock because it's so brazen. I can never understand the mental acrobatics necessary to maintain that position. As far as I'm aware, the typical claim is that they're focusing on penalising male clients and misogyny while providing alternatives to sex work but the reality is that their sacred models are being revealed as emperors with no clothes.  They yield increased poverty, abuse, murder, removal of children from loving mothers, and prosecution of women for simply keeping each other safe to name just a few things. Their position is sustained by reliance on dehumanising sex workers, silencing sex workers that object, enforcement of laws by violent patriarchal institutions, and low quality research that often blatantly warps fact to fit pre-determined conclusions.

By banning sex work they impose utter misery on many so how can they not be hostile to sex workers? Hostility doesn't need to be overt, for me. I'd suggest it can simply be callous disregard for existence. These overwhelmingly middle-class white women are willing to do anything in the name of their vision of the greater good. They're necessarily hostile to sex workers since these radical feminists handed patriarchal society a way to justify its treatment of the most vulnerable on a silver platter. In my view, this is where their exclusionary definition of womanhood tends to lead and why this form of radical feminism is always outright dangerous. They use the same tactics on anyone that doesn't aim to be identical to them whenever they have any power. They aren't some poor censored minority, they're rightly feared egotists.

Anyhoo, sorry for rambling... again. :D

Quote from: OreSama on July 30, 2014, 07:58:00 PM
We get called traitors for "trying to gain male privilege".  Because you know, transmen have so much privilege.  It's not like there's an actual serious issue with our bodies that needs to be corrected, we just hate being disadvantaged.  Others say we're always welcome to go back to being who we really are, which is such bullcrap.  I am a man, and denying that fact only made my issues worse.

Thanks OreSama. Seem like ya'll get it just as bad from them as we do. It really confuses me even more though. You guys are considered traitors for embacing masculinity and we are considered nothing more than dillusional for embracing femininity. Do the rad femenists of this caliber really like anyone but themselves? Or accept anyone but themselves?

Quote from: Lara the Lover and the Fighter on July 30, 2014, 08:21:17 PM
Its all a load of crap.  Man, Woman, Transgender, whatever.  We are all human.  Thats all that matters.

I definately agree, but unfortunatley just being human isn't good enough it seems. :-\

Quote from: Jess42 on July 31, 2014, 07:59:24 AM
Thanks OreSama. Seem like ya'll get it just as bad from them as we do. It really confuses me even more though. You guys are considered traitors for embacing masculinity and we are considered nothing more than dillusional for embracing femininity. Do the rad femenists of this caliber really like anyone but themselves? Or accept anyone but themselves?

(no)*2

Quote from: stephaniec on July 31, 2014, 08:11:10 AM
(no)*2

Well I was hoping for a more optimistic answer, but sadly I think you're right.

And this is why I prefer the word egalitarianism to feminism.  I have yet to see a bigoted self-proclaimed egalitarian, but bigoted "feminists" are all over the place.  And if you dare argue with one aspect of feminism, you either get yelled at or told "But that's not real feminism!"