Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I just want to complain about dysphoria for a bit if that's ok. I don't want advice on what I could do to look more masculine because most of that advice tends to steer away from how I want to look and then I feel even worse. The things I want to change are things that I can't do anything about right now. I can't fix my chest, I can't make fix my waist, I can't fix my face, etc.
Whenever I see guys I want to look like (to an extent and/or the general idea), I feel good because I like knowing what I want to look like, so I keep looking. But I also feel really dysphoric because I know I look far too effeminate and I hate that.
I just saw a picture of one of the guys I want to look like when he was younger and had hair my length. It's the same kind of hair as mine. This gives me hope.
http://sp4.fotolog.com/photo/20/21/124/amaliahietala/13313026054471_f.jpg (http://sp4.fotolog.com/photo/20/21/124/amaliahietala/13313026054471_f.jpg)
What's funny is I look at pictures of guys I really want to look similar to and I feel like crap because I think I'll never be able to look that masculine. The thing is though that I am only a little under ten months on T. I'm technically still in adolescent phase when it comes to physical changes. When they were at this stage, they either did or probably did look as effeminate. Even though I know this, I still feel really dysphoric and like I will never look how I want.
http://photo1.ask.fm/970/930/010/710003018-1rqh4j4-ad8lgoplgtgp9lk/preview/avatar.jpg (http://photo1.ask.fm/970/930/010/710003018-1rqh4j4-ad8lgoplgtgp9lk/preview/avatar.jpg)
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnll8qn09y1qhql5mo1_500.png (http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnll8qn09y1qhql5mo1_500.png)
Anyway. Thanks for letting me rant.

It doesn't help that people keep rubbing it in my face how cute and effeminate I look, accidentally calling me "she" even though they met me as a guy, expressing disbelief that I will ever look masculine, and/or dismissing my dysphoria.

Just for you brother!  :icon_hug: :-* Hope it helps.  :)

Internet hugs, mate.

Hey Edge, sorry to hear how you're feeling. I can relate to how you feel except I get more envious of females. I was at a group program that I attend yesterday and I was presenting female and I think this new guy thought of me as male even though people were referring to me as a girl. The reason I think this is because when we said bye he shook my hand and we were with another girl and he didn't shake hers as we said bye. He didn't directly call me a guy or anything in that matter but it still hurt my feelings. :( It really sucks that's happening to you I know I'd get really upset too.

It's definitely okay for you to vent about your problems. We're all here for you.

Marco's face is not so masculine. Of course a man's face, but nothing extreme. The beard helps a lot.
You can certainly keep your hope alive.

Thanks for the hugs, empathy, and reassurance Chimæra, Valleyrie, devention, and Jessica and thanks for letting me talk about it. Most of the time, I keep it all bottled up inside, but it just got too much tonight.
I can't wait a few years for top surgery. I'll go insane. I have a surgeon in mind I'll call sometime next week and ask about info and payment plans.

Planning always makes me feel a little better, edge. I don't follow through with them half the time, but just having a plan makes me calmer. Sort of having a light at the end of the tunnel.
Good luck with your inquiries!

Sort of early in my transition I had about an hour to wait and just sit and watch. So I decided to watch the gender presentation of men and see how "male" they presented. It was a very interesting exercise. Men have all sorts of gender presentations.

It's interesting who you selected as "models' as I thought both of them were masculine but did have some feminine aspects. I think it isn't so unusual from what my experiment told me. I think having brought up with female socialization, for the most part, we don't really get a chance to look at guys like that.

But men are not sort of one unitary load of masculinity, indeed it's a range and there are lots of differences. Everybody from the hyper masculine to some very nerdy types (say someone like Malcolm Gladwell). Every see Jackson Galaxy, now there is some interesting gender presentation!!!

I'm glad I did this experiment. I am not the most masculine looking but I still read as male almost all the time (more so than when my avatar was taken for sure).

BTW, if you have long curly hair you are going to be misgendered. I think it happens to cis guys, and I would be very surprised if either of these two you showed weren't misgendered. If you want to keep the curly hair like that, you are just going to have deal with that experience and decide which is most important.



--Jay

That sucks that people are being disrespectful about your gender. I have mixed feelings about looking at pictures of guys I wish I could look like. It's fun and it can be useful in shaping my goals, but I have to be pretty grounded or it just makes me feel hopeless. The guys you linked seem like they might have attainable looks other than the long beard detail, but I don't know how that goes for you. Some transguys get impressive growth.

I was like you about top surgery. Good luck with trying to work that out.

Ranting is always good and fine here.

Quote from: devention on August 01, 2014, 10:51:02 PM
Planning always makes me feel a little better, edge. I don't follow through with them half the time, but just having a plan makes me calmer. Sort of having a light at the end of the tunnel.
Good luck with your inquiries!

Thanks, devention. Yeah I started feeling better when I decided to act. I will follow through with it. It may still take awhile to save up enough money, but at least then I'll have a better idea of what my options are.

Quote from: aleon515 on August 03, 2014, 02:01:19 AM
Sort of early in my transition I had about an hour to wait and just sit and watch. So I decided to watch the gender presentation of men and see how "male" they presented. It was a very interesting exercise. Men have all sorts of gender presentations.

It's interesting who you selected as "models' as I thought both of them were masculine but did have some feminine aspects. I think it isn't so unusual from what my experiment told me. I think having brought up with female socialization, for the most part, we don't really get a chance to look at guys like that.

But men are not sort of one unitary load of masculinity, indeed it's a range and there are lots of differences. Everybody from the hyper masculine to some very nerdy types (say someone like Malcolm Gladwell). Every see Jackson Galaxy, now there is some interesting gender presentation!!!

The thing is, I want to have my gender presentation. Not the gender presentation I'm forced into because I look ridiculously feminine because my body is all wrong. Yes, metalheads tend to have feminine aspects, but they are also obviously masculine. They have the gender presentation I want and can't have because I look like a f-ing chick. (Sorry. I feel like complete crap right now. Dysphoria sucks. Being trans sucks.)

Quote from: aleon515 on August 03, 2014, 02:01:19 AMI'm glad I did this experiment. I am not the most masculine looking but I still read as male almost all the time (more so than when my avatar was taken for sure).

BTW, if you have long curly hair you are going to be misgendered. I think it happens to cis guys, and I would be very surprised if either of these two you showed weren't misgendered. If you want to keep the curly hair like that, you are just going to have deal with that experience and decide which is most important.

For the curliness, right now I either straighten it or tie it back (exceptions being when I don't have time or for a costume) and I'm growing it out. Once it gets past a certain length, it will weigh itself down.
Looking like myself means having long hair. Having short hair means looking like a butch woman which (no offence to butch women) is a look I absolutely despise on myself. There is no question that having long hair is more important than despising how I look even more. I know having long hair is likely to get me misgendered. I'd rather be misgendered due to long hair than because I have boobs a binder can't hide, a really effeminate face, and other things about my appearance I hate.
And before people say that I pass in my pictures here, I know, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've passed in real life and it really just hurts when people claim I pass here because I know I can't. I also want to repeat that I do not want advice on how to pass here. For one, no, it won't help me pass. For two, it tends to be along the lines of "look like someone who is not you" and the biggest reason I'm transitioning is because I want to avoid that because it makes me feel like crap. Neither do I want to hear that it's ok for men to look effeminate. Just because it's ok doesn't mean I want to.

Quote from: Felix on August 03, 2014, 02:37:30 AM
That sucks that people are being disrespectful about your gender. I have mixed feelings about looking at pictures of guys I wish I could look like. It's fun and it can be useful in shaping my goals, but I have to be pretty grounded or it just makes me feel hopeless. The guys you linked seem like they might have attainable looks other than the long beard detail, but I don't know how that goes for you. Some transguys get impressive growth.

I was like you about top surgery. Good luck with trying to work that out.

Ranting is always good and fine here.

Thanks, Felix. Yeah. Right now I want to yell and rage. I hate this.

I'm sorry to hear what you're going through, man. Warm hugs to you, and I hope it gets better. I'll keep it short and simple and finish it off with a piece of advice: Rock your mane and don't let anyone get you down. It'll get better,  I promise.

It really does suck. I'm not good with hugs but I'll send some support your way. Ranting is good.

Thanks, Maleth and Christopher.

Sorry if you got the idea I was trying to give advice on passing. I wasn't really it was a side note that I think cis guys with curly long hair are misgendered and that you are also right that short hair can read as butch lesbian. (Of course, it's no offense to butch lesbians, but obviously we aren't.)

My point really is that there is a range of what is male/masculine and that it helps to see that in cis men. Gender presentation is a huge big thing that really varies a lot more than I think those of us raised as girls in this society (for the most part) don't usually see.

I think being read as male is very complicated, and what has helped me more than anything is correcting people. Perhaps it sounds rude and obnoxious. (Okay guilty!) I don't like having assumptions thrown my way so that correcting people has been good. But over time it has gotten less and less necessarily. The other thing is that there is intentional misreading. I really have come down hard on that one.

It's kind of genetics, good luck, and even where you live. It's really true that a LGBT friendly place, while likely to be safer for us, isn't without it's difficulties. They do see more gays and are used to seeing gays and just assume we are too (which we mgiht be of course) except that's not what they are seeing.

Hang in there buddy.


--Jay

Sorry. I'm a bit more tetchy than usual and just wanted to make sure.
Again, the problem isn't a lack of range in cis men or any men who are not me. The problem is that I'm not in my range.

Quote from: Edge on August 03, 2014, 08:08:02 AM
Looking like myself means having long hair. Having short hair means looking like a butch woman which (no offence to butch women) is a look I absolutely despise on myself. There is no question that having long hair is more important than despising how I look even more. I know having long hair is likely to get me misgendered. I'd rather be misgendered due to long hair than because I have boobs a binder can't hide, a really effeminate face, and other things about my appearance I hate.

And before people say that I pass in my pictures here, I know, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've passed in real life and it really just hurts when people claim I pass here because I know I can't. I also want to repeat that I do not want advice on how to pass here. For one, no, it won't help me pass. For two, it tends to be along the lines of "look like someone who is not you" and the biggest reason I'm transitioning is because I want to avoid that because it makes me feel like crap. Neither do I want to hear that it's ok for men to look effeminate. Just because it's ok doesn't mean I want to.

I understand and agree. My hair is a little past my shoulders and naturally curly (though I usually straighten it), and I'm not at all effeminate. My father has long hair as well (metal and rock musician). At one point, tired of being frequently misgendered, I cut most of it off in an attempt to have my gender read properly. That backfired. I was no longer misgendered 75% of the time - it escalated to 100% - and being mistaken for a butch woman was a hell of a lot more dysphoria-inducing, and came with assumptions about my sexuality.

I still try to talk other FTMs with longer hair out of cutting it short when I see they're considering it. If you're not already passing, getting it cut is probably not going to help. In my case, it made the situation worse. With long hair, if I corrected someone about my gender, they were apologetic and insisted it was because of my hair. Even though it wasn't (I wasn't passing as cisgender at that point), they thought it was, which was good enough for me. With short hair, they gave me the side eye, and I could tell they thought I was transgender.

I also prefer to have longer hair. I am currently trying shorter styles, and while "butch lesbian" is a step up from how I was presenting a few months ago, it's not what I'm going for.

One of my hair models: http://www.world-art.ru/img/people/70000/62690.jpg

(The more I read your threads, Edge, the more I feel we have in common)

Quote from: Edge on August 03, 2014, 02:19:10 PM
Sorry. I'm a bit more tetchy than usual and just wanted to make sure.
Again, the problem isn't a lack of range in cis men or any men who are not me. The problem is that I'm not in my range.

No problem buddy, just felt that I wanted to say I don't actually like "passing tips" or hints or whatever, and wasn't offering those. You didn't post because you were feeling really happy about stuff. Hang in there, is all I can say.

--Jay

I've experienced a similar situation.

During the school year I had a specific friend that was of the your on the wrong path type. I do still care about this person, but it is important to realize when people aren't likely to change. Since it is summer I have gotten away from people like my friend and my disphoria has improved. You need to find way to distance yourself from the people that dismiss your feelings or outright disrespect you. I don't know exactly how to do that or how to make it easier to do though as I'm not great at this.

I also understand some of the hair stuff. I have scar which makes the hair cuts I would like impossible in a professional setting. As a result I have a more butch hair cut and the wavy/curliness doesn't help.

Thanks, Declan. I don't pass 99% of the time no matter what I do, so I figured I might as well at least work towards the hair I want for when I do pass instead of having that on top of the gender dysphoria.

Thanks, pianoforte.

Quote from: pianoforte on August 03, 2014, 04:44:49 PM(The more I read your threads, Edge, the more I feel we have in common)

That's interesting. Why do you say that?

Thanks, aleon.

Thanks for the response, David.
Actually the friends who are doing this are ones who support me. The ones who call me "she" correct themselves and apologize. It still hurts though. Whenever I try to explain that I hate being called cute and/or effeminate, they argue that guys can be cute and/or effeminate too and I don't know how to explain it to them so they get why it hurts me. When they point out that I currently look effeminate and don't pass, they don't understand how much that hurts me and are not meaning to on purpose. The one who expressed disbelief that I would ever look masculine was (I hope) because he doesn't know how much testosterone can change things and because I look so effeminate even I have trouble believing I will ever look masculine.

I feel very angry and like complete crap right now and I can't make it stop.

I also get fairly curly hair when it grows out, and ironically, I actually passed better when it was long. Especially from behind. I never quite understood this phenomenon, given typical gender preconceptions, but I sure never complained about it.
ETA: I'm sorry your friends are being so... tactless, I guess, Edge. That's just rude to do if they can tell it makes you uncomfortable. I'm in a situation where one of my friends always uses my right name but frequently messes up pronouns. She always corrects herself, but she only knew me a couple months as my birth name and says she "sees (me) totally as a guy". It's great and all, but it's just a little off to me. She also always says "you're such a boy" which I KNOW she says to make me feel better, but feels kinda condescending. I'm not quite sure how to approach that one.
Just trying to get at the fact you're not alone. My inbox is always open and I try to answer promptly if you ever need to talk or vent.

Thanks, devention. I don't know what I'd say. Right now, I want to vent, but I'd just be saying the same things over and over. I kind of want to roll up in a ball and cry, but I still can't cry.

:( I'm sorry, dude. I hope you feel better this morning.

A little I guess, but still very dysphoric. Tomorrow's T day though and I might have time to call the surgeon I have in mind with questions, so maybe I'll feel better then.
I hate to do this, but I think I'm going to have to lay things out for my friends. Mind if I paste it here and get feedback over whether it's assertive and coherent enough?


I hate to do this, but there are some things I really need to ask people not to do. As in doing these things will result in me hating people and showing it. If you've already done these things, then don't worry about it, but don't do it again.
1. No, it is not ok to out me without my permission. No matter how open I am about it, no matter how little I pass (ouch), no matter if I previously gave permission to tell someone else, no matter how ok you think this new person will be, no matter what, it is not ok to out me without my permission. The only time that is necessary is if there is a medical emergency (like I'm unconscious and paramedics need to be told). Any other time, ask me first and respect my wishes if I say no.
2. I am aware of how ridiculously effeminate I look and sometimes act, what my body looks like, that I come across as "cute," etc. Stop rubbing it in my face. If you want to give me a compliment, go with more masculine ones and not ones that refer to either my looks which I hate or broken defense habits which I also hate. If you want to give me tips on how to look or act more masculine, tell me what I am doing right instead of pointing out how effeminate I am. Then I know what to do aside from feel completely hopeless.
3. I am aware that guys can be cute and effeminate. Just because other guys are, that doesn't mean I want to be or even am. Definitely not to the extent that people think I am/should be. I don't want to have so much of me ignored and I don't want to transition only to put a mask back on. I want to be me. If you want me to be some cute, effeminate guy, go find someone else.

Quote from: Edge on August 05, 2014, 01:23:01 PM
A little I guess, but still very dysphoric. Tomorrow's T day though and I might have time to call the surgeon I have in mind with questions, so maybe I'll feel better then.
I hate to do this, but I think I'm going to have to lay things out for my friends. Mind if I paste it here and get feedback over whether it's assertive and coherent enough?


I hate to do this, but there are some things I really need to ask people not to do. As in doing these things will result in me hating people and showing it. If you've already done these things, then don't worry about it, but don't do it again.
1. No, it is not ok to out me without my permission. No matter how open I am about it, no matter how little I pass (ouch), no matter if I previously gave permission to tell someone else, no matter how ok you think this new person will be, no matter what, it is not ok to out me without my permission. The only time that is necessary is if there is a medical emergency (like I'm unconscious and paramedics need to be told). Any other time, ask me first and respect my wishes if I say no.
2. I am aware of how ridiculously effeminate I look and sometimes act, what my body looks like, that I come across as "cute," etc. Stop rubbing it in my face. If you want to give me a compliment, go with more masculine ones and not ones that refer to either my looks which I hate or broken defense habits which I also hate. If you want to give me tips on how to look or act more masculine, tell me what I am doing right instead of pointing out how effeminate I am. Then I know what to do aside from feel completely hopeless.
3. I am aware that guys can be cute and effeminate. Just because other guys are, that doesn't mean I want to be or even am. Definitely not to the extent that people think I am/should be. I don't want to have so much of me ignored and I don't want to transition only to put a mask back on. I want to be me. If you want me to be some cute, effeminate guy, go find someone else.

I think it's fine as-is. It's assertive and clear, but doesn't come off as overtly blunt. I'm going to have to post something like #1 myself later on today - I'm encountering the same problem, left and right.

It sounds good to me, dude. Gotta be assertive and tell them what's what.

Thanks Declan and devention. I've posted it now.
If I may rant a bit more. That first one. It makes me so mad. The people who most adamantly claim to see me as a guy are the ones who do it too. If they really only see me as a guy, why do they feel the need to tell people I'm trans?
Also, I automatically (as in I don't do it on purpose) act more effeminate the more nervous and uncomfortable I am. That doesn't help matters.

Update:
I did post what I wrote and talked to the friends who had done the first one individually as well. They now feel horrible about it because, although I was relatively nice about it, I was also pretty clear on how I feel about it. So that went well.
I just got off with the secretary for the surgeon I have in mind. I now know about how much money I need to save up (plus travel) and what to do for a consultation.
I went to the bank today and opened a second (free) account specifically to save up money, so I'll make sure I put any money I have left over after rent, bills, groceries, etc in that. It's going to be a lot easier to save up money if it's separate from the rest of my money and I can see it going up.
I still feel really dysphoric, but I feel good and productive about having a plan and starting to put it in motion.

Quote from: Edge on August 05, 2014, 09:42:27 PM
Thanks Declan and devention. I've posted it now.
If I may rant a bit more. That first one. It makes me so mad. The people who most adamantly claim to see me as a guy are the ones who do it too. If they really only see me as a guy, why do they feel the need to tell people I'm trans?

I don't know if this will make you feel any better, but in my case, all the people who out me are attention seekers. Being transgender is a novelty to many, and being associated with someone in the midst of transitioning is like knowing a celebrity in the minds of some people. They want to be asked questions and fussed over, and if the person they told reacts badly, they get an ego boost for defending you. It's possible your friends are doing this for some of the same reasons and that they aren't outing you because they don't consider you male.

Maybe, but I don't like being considered a novelty either.