Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I just read an article by a trans woman who has gone to Michfest a few times since 2011 and says she's noticed a more prominent number of radfem supporters at the festival. I was just wondering how potentially damaging you feel this group is to trans rights

It comes with the territory. Trans people were more invisible before, so there was less need for people who didn't support us to make their voices heard. Now that we're slowly getting more and more media exposure, and our rights issues are coming to the forefront, the backlash is inevitably going to get stronger.

I don't think it's going to work. We have science on our side. So unless some new study comes out that shows definitively that we're not who we say we are, and that there is some sort of alternate therapy than gender transition, I don't think any amount of campaigning from radfems is going to change anything. Especially since I believe there are way fewer TERFs than trans people. I have a lot of feminist friends, and all of them have welcomed me with open arms.

Yeah just like religious extremest, they are the minority and have nothing to back their claims against us. Plus they contradict themselves by being against us, if they are so for women's rights, they should be our biggest supporters. They use nasty political tactics that just make the entire feminist movement look bad. Which is sad because a lot of people think feminism is about man hating, which couldn't be further from the truth.

They are damaged haters. They're usually massive misandrists and are marginalised within feminism anyway, so no.

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on August 07, 2014, 02:34:20 PM
Yeah just like religious extremest, they are the minority and have nothing to back their claims against us. Plus they contradict themselves by being against us, if they are so for women's rights, they should be our biggest supporters. They use nasty political tactics that just make the entire feminist movement look bad. Which is sad because a lot of people think feminism is about man hating, which couldn't be further from the truth.

They don't really contradict themselves on the women's rights thing because they do not see us as women.  They think our desire to adhere to stereotypical gender traits hurts women, because those same stereotypical gender ideals have been used to oppress women and they also think that it oversimplifies what it means to be a woman.  They don't believe in inherent gender at all, so i can see where their logic is.  Do I agree with it?  Some yes, some no.  If you can look past all of their namecalling and examine their philosophy, some of it is actually understandable.  Other parts are delusional, but then they think we are delusional so who is to say.  All i know, is as long as they are preaching no p in v sex, no feminist i know that isn't a lesbian is looking to join up.

Quote from: Kylie on August 07, 2014, 03:14:31 PM
They don't really contradict themselves on the women's rights thing because they do not see us as women.  They think our desire to adhere to stereotypical gender traits hurts women, because those same stereotypical gender ideals have been used to oppress women and they also think that it oversimplifies what it means to be a woman.  They don't believe in inherent gender at all, so i can see where their logic is.  Do I agree with it?  Some yes, some no.  If you can look past all of their namecalling and examine their philosophy, some of it is actually understandable.  Other parts are delusional, but then they think we are delusional so who is to say.  All i know, is as long as they are preaching no p in v sex, no feminist i know that isn't a lesbian is looking to join up.

The problem is that they don't understand body dyshphoria. They hold the (wrong) belief that in a world without gender expression, where men and women were equally free to be masculine/feminine without stigmatization, that trans people would not exist at all. They don't understand that for so many of us, it's not about being "feminine" or "masculine," it's about feeling like our bodies are fundamentally wrong, and that we'd still want to physically be the opposite sex even in a world where men could wear dresses and shave their bodies and be completely accepted and appreciated for it, and in a world where women could wear business suits, bulk up and be muscular, and be handsome and masculine and be completely accepted. Even if that happened, we'd still feel like our bodies were wrong.

I feel pretty strongly speaking against this, because, well, pre-transition I had the exact same "revelation," that the problem wasn't my sex, the problem was just that I needed the freedom to be as feminine as I wanted completely without shame, and let society deal with it. It was them that was wrong, not me. But then when I actually tried it, I ended up proving myself wrong. Because no matter how feminine I let myself be, it didn't fix the fundamental problem that my body felt wrong. I still had the body hair which I hated, I still had the thick male skin and facial features which I hated, I still had genitals that I hated, my sex drive still felt wrong, and (as I would soon come to learn once I started HRT,) testosterone made my brain feel like it was in a perpetual fog. And I basically had to admit to myself, the problem really was my gender. It had nothing to do with being feminine. And I realized I'd rather be the butchest most masculine female than the twinkiest most effeminate male, as long as I could be female.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on August 07, 2014, 03:17:33 PM
The problem is that they don't understand body dyshphoria. They hold the (wrong) belief that in a world without gender expression, where men and women were equally free to be masculine/feminine without stigmatization, that trans people would not exist at all. They don't understand that for so many of us, it's not about being "feminine" or "masculine," it's about feeling like our bodies are fundamentally wrong, and that we'd still want to physically be the opposite sex even in a world where men could wear dresses and shave their bodies and be completely accepted and appreciated for it, and in a world where women could wear business suits, bulk up and be muscular, and be handsome and masculine and be completely accepted.

Actually the rad fem I was emailing about this would be completely in line with what you just said.  She explained it as they do think sex/body dysphoria is very real.  They do not think it is a fetish for transsexuals, but that it is a fetish for someone who is just transgender. It didnt make a whole lot of sense to me as I don't see how you can separate the two in our society, but i guess you can always theorize the separation.

This is one of the most ridiculous things.. The idea that transgender people aren't "real" women, and transexual people are, not only completely ignores the many social, economical, and health reasons that someone who is fully mentally female may not "fully" transition, but perpetuates them. I don't get how TERF's can claim to be pro-diversity and yet have such pro-binary thinking.. >_<

There's been so much backlash on them from other feminists and ciswomen that I actually think that they might be having a positive overall effect in the long term. Yeah, it's going to suck that they can shut us out from some places and things, but mostly people seem to react to their hateful attacks much the same way as most react to the Westboro Babtist nutcases. People are actually getting on our side and against them. And it's not a wonder with their "you're never going to be real women" and "sorry about your penis" attacks.

Overall, it is often a good sign that people feel threatened enough by our emerging visibility and rights that they react with so much hate and contempt. It's a natural part of the evolution of our rights, pretty much all minorities have had to go through.

What is meant by transgender versus transsexual. Because I thought they made no distinction. I do very much dislike being refered to as transgender and correct anybody when they do. I started idetifying as transsexual at around 12 when I saw some show on Maury and saw that it could be done. Before that, I identified as hermaphroditic mutant and wanted to kill myself and tried to when I was 10 by hanging and it wasn't an attempt. I lept off the ledge I tied the rope to and tried to snap my neck or at least suffocate myself to death. The rope and pole that was bolted into the wall that it was tied to broke, and I saw it as a sign from God. So I strguggled on and whren I saw this show I identified as transsexual. I still do.

I guess what they mean by transgender is people who for whatever reason don't want surgery but just the clothes and access to women's spaces or something? I don't know and dont waste much time thinking about them since there's like what 100 of them. And anyone who is against P-in-V sex isn't getting very far with 95 percent of women. In fact, it will prolly help us. Most women are pretty pro-trans or at least act that way.

I hope it's acceptable to say that I know of many inclusive, cis and trans, radical feminists that have reputations as wonderful people so I think it's important to realise that it isn't the entirety of radical feminism that is a threat to our rights.

With regard to the topic, I expect the vast majority of us are all too familiar with the damage trans-exclusionary feminists have done in the past by creating dehumanising caricatures of trans people or leveraging any social advantages they have to gain support from  the patriarchy they claim to loathe.

In the present, I still regard them as a threat, though greatly diminished, because many trans-exclusionary feminists retain advantages that existed in the past. I believe there are quite a few respected academics or journalists that are linked to figures in governments, equality organisations, charities, and left-wing media. Some seem to be part of the type of elite social networks that most trans people are excluded from. Of course, that's largely based on me speculating and probably entirely depends on locale.

For instance, in the UK it seems likely to me that exclusionary thinking from civil servants and politicians greatly impacted the then government doing the absolute minimum deemed necessary by the ECHR when creating the Gender Recognition Act 2004. Similarly, the influence of their thinking seems to have caused the insertion of specific trans exclusion from rape shelters or counselling provision in the Equality Act 2010.

Nonetheless, I think significant progress has been made despite their best attempts to stifle it by aligning their own ideology with mass bigotry. I hope I'm never proven wrong when I say that I think they're losing and will continue to lose.

Ultimately, I think their own dogma dooms them to failure since it attempts to police or eradicate too many groups. Weirdly, it often seems authoritarian in nature to me rather than liberating. They often target trans people, sex workers that don't comply with them, women that aren't political lesbians, femme women, and innumerable other groups that they seemingly see as intellectually inferior to their clarity of vision. When they patronise and alienate so many of their own natural allies as well as their oppressors, I doubt they'll succeed in fighting back against the present political tide any more than social conservatives have succeeded in fighting against the acceptance of sexual diversity in many places.

In my view, their ideas stagnated decades ago and have been mainly on repeat ever since. Their ideology isn't evolving to accommodate changing environment so it's being selected for. They'll repackage ideas, generate facades of reason by citing nonsense theories like  ->-bleeped-<- to substantiate their predetermined conclusions, and even make concessions to oh so kindly include True Transsexuals while shifting all their accusations of being deviants, perverts, sex offenders, etc to all other trans people but I don't think they're adapting fast enough to survive as a group. I really truly hope it stays that way.

Personally, my real concern isn't with harm from ardent exclusionary radical feminists but those I characterised elsewhere (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,170615.msg1488883.html#msg1488883) as the 'public relations agents' of radical feminism. I fear the power of those in the political class that are skilled enough to knowingly or unknowingly use respectability, appeals to false moderation, appropriation of liberation language, cherry-picking, misrepresentation, false claims of persecution, and innumerable other things to gain sympathy from large groups of people. They're insightful enough to present their case against our rights as being about protection of other oppressed groups and not about attacking oppressed groups. On top of that, they can point at the real exclusionary feminists to prove they're moderate and reasonable. Hopefully I'm just a wee bit unreasonably fearful in this area!

Quote from: stephaniec on August 07, 2014, 01:43:17 PM
I just read an article by a trans woman who has gone to Michfest a few times since 2011 and says she's noticed a more prominent number of radfem supporters at the festival. I was just wondering how potentially damaging you feel this group is to trans rights

I think the idea that you can declare yourself trans, put on women's clothes, and declare yourself a woman is one that takes some getting used to. The natural inclination is to say "doesn't matter what you say you are, you're still a man".

Only when we tell our stories and people understand what it feels like to be us that they understand and accept us.

So my answer to your excellent question is that it depends on how well WE tell our stories. If we explain in such a way that the cis world understands, there is no way the TERF ideas will take root.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 07, 2014, 04:01:55 PM
I guess what they mean by transgender is people who for whatever reason don't want surgery but just the clothes and access to women's spaces or something? I don't know and dont waste much time thinking about them since there's like what 100 of them. And anyone who is against P-in-V sex isn't getting very far with 95 percent of women. In fact, it will prolly help us. Most women are pretty pro-trans or at least act that way.

Yeah, I didn't get that part either.  It seemed as though they completely disavow gender dysphoria, but i don't see how it would be possible to have sex dysphoria without some degree of gender dysphoria because of how sex and gender are intertwined in our society.  They just really don't like gender or p's in v's.  The average person will probably find it easier to relate to us than them with those ideas.

It seems the only people who take TERFs seriously are other TERFs. 

When they try to belittle us publically, all I see is them shooting themselves in the feet.  Go ahead and alienate as many people as you want, then see where that gets you.  If anything, I think the TERFs are unwittingly doing us a favor by raising awareness of our plight.

Quote from: stephaniec on August 07, 2014, 01:43:17 PM
I just read an article by a trans woman who has gone to Michfest a few times since 2011 and says she's noticed a more prominent number of radfem supporters at the festival. I was just wondering how potentially damaging you feel this group is to trans rights

No, radfems, skinheads, kkk, religious extremists etc. should be watch but no the changing tide, tsunami is a better qualifier, is totally irreversible

Jill

I hope that you are right, but my sense is that as per Lonicera's post and my sense that TERF's are masters at distorting the debate and appropriating our language to demonise and invalidate us, makes them an ongoing danger. 

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on August 07, 2014, 06:53:20 PM
Jill

I hope that you are right, but my sense is that as per Lonicera's post and my sense that TERF's are masters at distorting the debate and appropriating our language to demonise and invalidate us, makes them an ongoing danger. 

Safe travels

Aisla

They do not have any political to affect any legal or cultural change... the average American and the media at large totally ignore them if not despise them

Peky

You know the US better than I, but it always makes me uncomfortable when I see the TERF line trotted out by supposedly main stream media like the New Yorker.  It is a democracy so alternate views, even if nonsense, will still get air time

Aisla

No. They've been at this for literally decades (most of them are leftover 60s radicals) and are clearly not having much long-term success. Most open-minded people don't listen to them, and conservatives - well, they don't exactly like violently outspoken feminist women who argue for "hating men."

I don't like to read what they say because it makes me sad... but I don't think they're winning.  Even MichFest is dwindling every year, to a handful of angry women sitting in a field and sulking.

Peky/Jenna Marie

Just goes to show that I am either paranoid or a drama queen, or perhaps just a little bit of both.  Appreciate your replies.

Safe travels

Aisla

I had never heard of them until two weeks ago if that makes you feel any better, and no one i asked after i found out had heard of them either.  It doesn't seem like most people who aren't trans or deeply into feminist theory have ever heard of them.

I don't think so. Sure, maybe things will get worse for trans women in the lesbian circles for a while as these radfems come out more...but very few people actually take these women seriously in day to day life. They just see them as angry man hating lesbians.

Quote from: birkin on August 07, 2014, 09:35:03 PM
I don't think so. Sure, maybe things will get worse for trans women in the lesbian circles for a while as these radfems come out more...but very few people actually take these women seriously in day to day life. They just see them as angry man hating lesbians.

this is the first I ever heard of them. The articles that have been popping up on Huffington Post, but some of the statements I've seen about their views on transgender people is like there's been no social progress for the past 50 years and their implication of what transgender means comes straight from the sewer. I do pray they are ignored and seen as perpetrators of hate and bigotry.

I myself know little about the TERF's, mainly because I can't see wasting any of my time on people like that.  But my impression is that they're a (very) minor irritant and nothing more, especially compared to other threats such as religious fundamentalists.  I can't imagine that anyone outside academic circles would pay any attention to them.  E.g., in the little town I live in people are very friendly to me, very accepting.  You're talking about plain old people--post office clerks, supermarket cashiers, that sort--who don't have anything to do with any sort of feminism, let alone the radical crowd.  If the TERF's came into this town trying to stir up opposition against me, people would think they're the crazies, not me.

I came across one measure of their support not long ago.  Now you probably know of organizations like All-Out that often start up petitions in support of various LGBT causes.  They've got their act together, and whatever the petition, they can get tens of thousands of signatures in a matter of days.

Yet there was once an incident in which Catherine Brennan got tossed out of an LGBT pub.  Her supporters tried to get a petition of protest going.  When I saw the petition, it had been posted on line for a year and yet had only about 50 signatures.  Fifty in a year, compared to the tens of thousands our side can get in a few days.  That's the measure of support the most famous of TERF's has worldwide.

Aisla : Oh, not at all! Well, maybe a *little* paranoid, but it's really hard not to be when there's people who genuinely are out to get us...

When I look at the my circles of friends/social media, they're actually pretty often a subject, but I figure that's disproportionate to the bigger picture - that people who are worried about TERFs focus on them a lot, and so they are taking up a bigger part of the conversation than they deserve relative to how much genuine influence they have.

To me:

People who fight for rights but also deny another group rights.
Just to not have a moral  ground to stand on.
They are just as bad as the group who is denying them any rights.
They therefore will lose any desire on my part to support their rights.

TERFs are becoming more and more marginalized thankfully. But you have to remember that thirty years ago, it was TERFs who convinced the Reagan administration to remove the right to have SRS as a valid medical procedure from Medicare, and shortly thereafter all insurance companies did likewise.

They aren't that powerful now but it's always wise to keep an eye on haters because they will always try again and again to harm an oppressed group, in this case us, as trans people.

Most people recognize that radical feminists are as crazy as religious fundamentalists.  Both groups have a lot of members that say things that are absolutely insane.  When they say things such as, "Men who refuse to call themselves feminists are worse than rape threats" it's pretty clear that nobody is going to take them seriously except for other radical feminists.

I pretty much give these people the same response that I would to any other group that hates us:

Screw you
Get a life
Take a long walk off a short pier.

These wankers don't mean crap to me.

Unfortunately they do still get a hearing, sometimes in places that pride themselves on their impartiality. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04cfgrj (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04cfgrj) from about 10 minutes in.  Please don't follow that link if you are feeling at all delicate.

Rosie

Yeah, I'll avoid clicking on that link.  I don't go out of my way to get annoyed.

Quote from: Ms Grace on August 07, 2014, 02:53:01 PM
They are damaged haters. They're usually massive misandrists and are marginalised within feminism anyway, so no.

This reflects my exact thoughts.

Quote from: H, H, H, Honeypot! on August 09, 2014, 01:14:30 AM
Unfortunately they do still get a hearing, sometimes in places that pride themselves on their impartiality. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04cfgrj (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04cfgrj) from about 10 minutes in.  Please don't follow that link if you are feeling at all delicate.

Rosie

thanks, wow, that one lady sure could talk fast

After taking a class on feminism, or two (technically the first one wasn't a feminism class, but that's what our teacher taught ;P) I can say that to the best of my knowledge, TERFy people don't really understand what feminism actually means, or what the people like Beauvoir actually were aiming for when they formulated the ideas of feminism. Feminism has never been solely about women being made equal with men, its purpose is to analyze and affect change towards the reduction and alteration of othering in the modern class system.  It is about treating people as human beings, regardless of anything else, and that any traits upon this are not inherently indicative of some sort of superiority, nor of any other trait.

Will it wipe out progress? Only if we let it.

I fear the trans movement fights TERFs rather than the larger issues, because they feel it is a battle that can be won. That is also, why I feel TERFs fight trans folk.

We actually have separate causes, that only barely overlap.

The TERFs would love to abolish gender. Good luck with that. But it would not hurt trans folk to live in a genderless society. I would still want a vagina. But...

I am sure it varies a lot by location. I have not followed these intellectual debates too closely. But from what I hear from average people , read in the mainstream media and hear from politicians , the attitudes about our community have improved tremendously just in the last decade or so. Most of these terfers seem to be of older generations , often having been active in that field for decades. They still might voice their views but generally younger people coming onto the whole feminism scene are less likely to have those views at all.

Quote from: stephaniec on August 07, 2014, 01:43:17 PM
I just read an article by a trans woman who has gone to Michfest a few times since 2011 and says she's noticed a more prominent number of radfem supporters at the festival. I was just wondering how potentially damaging you feel this group is to trans rights

No damage at all really. We were here before them and we will be there after everyone has had enough of their ridiculous ideas. We have medical issues that we are dealing with. They have political/hatred/ignorance issues to deal with. We have endured whereas they have burned out some time ago and the remaining hardcore few are looking at other outlets (us for one) to hate.

Nothing to worry about. I pity them as I am moving on with life as are most of us here on Susans. I guess you would call that progress ?

Quote from: H, H, H, Honeypot! on August 09, 2014, 01:14:30 AM
Unfortunately they do still get a hearing, sometimes in places that pride themselves on their impartiality. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04cfgrj (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04cfgrj) from about 10 minutes in.  Please don't follow that link if you are feeling at all delicate.

Rosie

*shudders* Oh my goodness, I was listening when that popped up. It utterly stunned me. As somebody that has tried to read parts of Jeffreys book for the sake of knowing the opposition, I wrote a complaint containing some of the most horrendous quotes, asked them whether the BBC would give airtime to somebody that wrote a book claiming gay people are likely to be sex offenders or paedophiles, compared it to inviting somebody that uses cherrypicked studies to advocate for reparative therapy for sexuality, and tried to highlight the dangerous habit of equating impartiality with absurd arguments to moderation. Sadly, I expect I'll get a nonpology, if I get anything at all, or something generic if lots of people complain but I think it's worth trying, isn't it? :)

I'm glad you made it through the beebs somewhat tortured complaints process Lonicera. I did as well, picking on a couple of (hopefully different) quotes that I found particularly objectionable. I felt that the most unfortunate part of the debate was Jenni's uncritical acceptance of Prof Jeffreys (provably wrong) statements. Unfortunately Jenni has some form in that she engaged in some  slut shaming about a month ago.  I would hate to come across as ageist but it seems (to me) as though Jenni's ideas about feminism calcified about 30 years ago.

Rosie

My big worry would be TERFs joining forces with religious extremists.  Politics does make for strange bedfellows after all.  The TERFs need allies, and the religious extremists might find themselves using the TERF presence to validate their transparent denials that they are anti-woman.

If we see these two groups joining forces, it's going to be bad news for our community!

Quote from: Rose City Rose on August 09, 2014, 08:27:52 PM
My big worry would be TERFs joining forces with religious extremists.  Politics does make for strange bedfellows after all.  The TERFs need allies, and the religious extremists might find themselves using the TERF presence to validate their transparent denials that they are anti-woman.

If we see these two groups joining forces, it's going to be bad news for our community!

Huh religious extremists embracing lesbians to fight transsexuals.  Don't see it happening, but it would certainly be interesting

Quote from: Kylie on August 09, 2014, 08:38:29 PM
Huh religious extremists embracing lesbians to fight transsexuals.  Don't see it happening, but it would certainly be interesting

it would be pretty interesting far right ministers riding on the back of Harleys  driven by Dykes on bikes in the Pride parade with signs denouncing the  transgender.

Please do not try to deal with TERFs. They stalk transwomen. They make up lies about transwomen which they then report to your employer and even local police. They actually attempt to destroy transwomen. Several leaders, when confronted with the high trans suicide attempt rates, stated they wished we would all kill ourselves. These are vile, reprehensible people who will do harm to you if they can. Do not give them that opportunity.

Quote from: LizMarie on August 09, 2014, 09:55:21 PM
Please do not try to deal with TERFs. They stalk transwomen. They make up lies about transwomen which they then report to your employer and even local police. They actually attempt to destroy transwomen. Several leaders, when confronted with the high trans suicide attempt rates, stated they wished we would all kill ourselves. These are vile, reprehensible people who will do harm to you if they can. Do not give them that opportunity.

Yeah this is where I think TERFs are bad for trans people, even ftm people.

The main issue from radical feminists is that they are man hating or give off the image that all feminists are man hating. It makes the word feminist have negative connotations, which it shouldn't because I believe that feminism is about gender equality.

Quote from: Kylie on August 09, 2014, 08:38:29 PM
Huh religious extremists embracing lesbians to fight transsexuals.  Don't see it happening, but it would certainly be interesting

Regrettably, I believe it already has happened in some cases. For instance, a group of exclusionary feminists supported the Pacific Justice Institute, a right-wing faith legal group, in a shockingly dishonest 'bathroom panic' case. Similarly, those same exclusionary people often seem to happily use or add to resources created by the most odious of Men's Rights Activists. The enemy of their enemy really is their friend, which says a lot about them.

In the University of Adelaide and the University od South Australia we got to analyse these sorts of extremists works. The outcome was the same throughout the campuses, radical feminism is out-dated, harmful and within an another decade or so is going to be place on the shelf with phrenology. Indeed, we did not use their reviews/articles again as the lecturers (all feminists) stated that the works are cautionary tails of what happens when a few less than stable people managed to get a degree in the 1950-80.