Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi hi

Recently I got into a conversation with a fellow transitioner (MtF) and we got to the topic of self-identification: transgender vs transsexual. She sees herself as transsexual and thinks transgender is a misnomer and for me its vice versa, it's just that I am not judgemental about people using either and getting to know someone personally is a better way to avoid the label altogether

It's hard when I get called transsexual because to me that term would mean something completely different: sexual attraction to (trans-people). I thought this was about gender, so I adopted TG.

While I am typing this I feel its more of a non-issue than I sometimes read it is. Some people are really adamant to point out the difference. Sure I know TG is more of an umbrella term and TS falls under it but for me they mean the same ...in my case

Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Sexual preference or attraction does not figure into it. :)

I'm not confused about it, its the 'they are false transsexuals' I get from some people when the word transgender is uttered

Quote from: YinYanga on August 09, 2014, 12:32:53 PM
its the 'they are false transsexuals' I get from some people when the word transgender is uttered

Huh??? ???

I agree with Jessica's definitions. 

Someone who is attracted to trans people would be a transophile or something like that (I just made that word up).  Examples: "Androphile" (people attracted to men), "Gynephile" (people attracted to women), and I think we all unfortunately are aware of "Pedophile"

I tried making my post understandable but I guess it needs work ^^

Perhaps yes

Jessica's nailed it, but I think there's also a political issue behind the 'transgender' vs. 'transsexual' debate... and the OP has hinted at it.

In the minds of a lot of people who aren't familiar with trans* issues, the use of 'sexual' in 'transsexual' lumps it into the same category as 'heterosexual' or 'homosexual'; i.e. they think of it as being a sexual orientation or fetish. And because they (generally) don't understand other people's sexualities and they think anything outside their own narrow experience is 'deviant', they tend to think of transsexual people as being a bunch of perverts.  ::)

Now, transsexuals have as much right to be perverted as anyone else >:-) but of course that's not at all what the the term means. The term is about transitioning from being recognised as a member of one sex, to being recognised as a member of the other sex. It's got nothing to do with who you're attracted to.

But people who are unfamiliar with trans* issues just don't get that and they find it confusing. So the term 'transgender' is preferred by those who have experienced trying to get past other people's knee-jerk responses whenever the word 'sex' is mentioned.

I get it now. the PUBLICS perception. not yours. Thanks FTM! Yes, the public is very ignorant of the proper terms. That is one reason I never thought about going stealth at all. So I could help educate the public by being a visible source of information. Problem is I pass too well.  ::)

Thats exactly what I felt aswell but I missed my point a little, couldn't word it rightly and I dont want to get into a silly fight about this

It's more of an internalized issue for me, hard to explain but I prefer the term I'm most comfy with.

No real right or wrong, just worry that outsiders might perceive me wrongly

Quote from: YinYanga on August 09, 2014, 12:50:13 PM
No real right or wrong, just worry that outsiders might perceive me wrongly

As long as you are happy and comfortable with yourself who caress what they think!  :) They will always find something offensive or strange from clothes, to shoes, to hair style, etc. You can't please them so quit trying. Their opinions should not affect or guide your happiness.  :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 12:54:48 PM
As long as you are happy and comfortable with yourself who caress what they think!  :) They will always find something offensive or strange from clothes, to shoes, to hair style, etc. You can't please them so quit trying. Their opinions should not affect or guide your happiness.  :)

I actually do care about it....and its non-sensical, but I keep doing it. Physicially transitioning might be easier for me than some others but you need to have the right mindset too, it's something I need to keep working on sadly

Anyway, topic was lively enough for me  ;)

In some circles "transsexual" has fallen out of favor because of the "sexual" root that misleads people into thinking this has something to do with sexual behavior.

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 09, 2014, 02:35:42 PM
In some circles "transsexual" has fallen out of favor because of the "sexual" root that misleads people into thinking this has something to do with sexual behavior.

This is why, initially, I used transgender. But if we go by definition, I'm a transsexual, and that's generally the word I use now.

While I expect it will be technically accurate post-transition, I doubt I'll ever use transsexual because I dislike quite a few of negative associations. While there's the 'sexual' aspect already mentioned, I've watched far too many people use the term as if it makes them more legitimate and superior to others. While I have no doubt that's only a teeny tiny minority and totally respect personal choice to use it as a descriptor, it sullied the word for me. I would think of people like True Transsexuals or other vicious exclusionary transsexual people every time I use it. I don't want that link to them, no matter how small, because I reject such mentalities wholeheartedly. I also dislike the fact that it seems to lend itself to use as a noun far more than transgender does but I expect my perception may be totally inaccurate there. I like words that are more commonly used as adjectives so that it is a part of who I am rather than what I am.

Personally, I prefer transgender because I think it'll be a more accurate descriptor of me and will allow me a nice sense of being a bit unified with the rest of a diverse umbrella at all times. Of course, my preference is probably due to the fact I don't really see a distinction between sex and gender, I see them as a giant reflexive wibbly wobbly thingy so regard my transition as one of largely gendered things, even the physical.

Quote from: Lonicera on August 09, 2014, 03:22:21 PM
I would think of people like True Transsexuals or other vicious exclusionary transsexual people every time I use it.

I thought we were all trans regardless. True Transsexuals? Is there a false one? I could be missing something here though.  ???

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 03:26:47 PM
I thought we were all trans regardless. True Transsexuals? Is there a false one? I could be missing something here though.  ???

I agree entirely but they do not from experience, they regard themselves as legitimate while declaring other people are illegitimate if they don't conform exactly to their standards. They are 'true' and others are false or fake. I've seen incredibly nasty and insidious attacks from them on other trans people that they're willing to throw under the bus because they see them as a political disadvantage.

Quote from: Lonicera on August 09, 2014, 03:34:07 PM
they regard themselves as legitimate while declaring other people are illegitimate if they don't conform exactly to their standards.

Oh I get it now. I have seen this once or twice, but I don't let it get to me. They are just shallow transier than thou types. ::)

I think that anyone should be able to "identify" just any way they choose.  However, I think that it is wrong and prejudicial to slander those who do identify as transsexual (or even post transsexual), just because some idiot gve you a bad time.

Also I think that choosing to see no distinction between sex and gender and choosing to 'identify" it as just "some giant reflexive wibbly wobbly thingy" is just choosing to be willfully ignorant.

I might be "MtF Transgender'  and you might like the label 'MtF Transsexual' more

Slightly different font on the wrapping, same essence

Quote from: Susan522 on August 09, 2014, 03:38:12 PM
I think that anyone should be able to "identify" just any way they choose.  However, I think that it is wrong and prejudicial to slander those who do identify as transsexual (or even post transsexual), just because some idiot gve you a bad time.

I'm afraid I can't see where I defame them in any way. I said "While I have no doubt that's only a teeny tiny minority and totally respect personal choice to use it as a descriptor, it sullied the word for me." It's my choice not to use the word due to my experience and I entirely support others that do use it for things like personal sense of accuracy or a desire for a specific identity. Anything else would be rather conceited of me.

QuoteAlso I think that choosing to see no distinction between sex and gender and choosing to 'identify" it as just "some giant reflexive wibbly wobbly thingy" is just choosing to be willfully ignorant.

Well I won't insult you by calling you 'wilfully ignorant' but I'm afraid we'll have to disagree. The highly interlinked definitions of sex and gender I use are based on my personal reading of things like queer theory and I'm going to continue using them. If you prefer another perspective on the nature of sex and gender, such as identifying one as social construction whereas seeing the other as strictly biology, then that's your right. Nowhere did I say you have to use mine, it's a personal choice.

Thinking of changing this topic title to: "Clash of the Titans"!  :)

Never knew I had 'blockbuster' directing potential!

:laugh:

Quote from: YinYanga on August 09, 2014, 03:58:09 PM
Never knew I had 'blockbuster' directing potential!

:laugh:

See what can happen by transitioning?  ;D

Touché, mon ami  :P

The problem for me with saying transgender is different people have different definitions.  Some say it's an umbrella term, others say it only applies to people who have dysphoria, etc.  I just refer to myself as trans to avoid that because I don't like the word transsexual. I really only refer to myself as a transsexual when I'm joking around with my girlfriend...

I've always known transgender as an umbrella term and someone that is transsexual are ones that medically transition whether they are non-op, pre-op or post-op.  But the way things fall in and out of favor depending on which way the social and political winds blow, no telling what will come up next week.


Just stay clear of "true transsexuals" and "HBS'ers", they can be quite insistent on their view over anyone else's and damn the torpedoes and all that jazz...

I did what I had to do back in the bad ol' days to live an authentic life, long before there were support groups, the internet, readily available quality medical resources, etc. for those of us whose birth anatomy and expected social role were at odds with who we knew ourselves to be.  For the record, I prefer "transsexual" but I have always regarded it as an adjective, never a noun.  I don't like "transgender" as an adjective to describe me personally.  I didn't change my gender, but I did have a sex change so that I could experience the world in a more appropriate anatomical context.

I totally respect & support everyone's individual choices regarding their personal journey, and I expect the same in return.

Carol

I thoroughly dislike the term Transgender. It allows the listener to place me in any classification THEY chose - drag queen / cross dresser / gender queer / whatever - and none of those are me.

I do not like being a transsexual but I would rather be thought of as transsexual than something that I am not.

Quote from: Jaime R D on August 09, 2014, 04:45:00 PM
Just stay clear of "true transsexuals" and "HBS'ers", they can be quite insistent on their view over anyone else's and damn the torpedoes and all that jazz...

I've heard of the 'true transsexuals' but who are the HBS'ers?

Quote from: OreSama on August 09, 2014, 05:03:14 PM
I've heard of the 'true transsexuals' but who are the HBS'ers?

An acronymed variety of the species "true transsexuals."   They call what they have "Harry Benjamin Syndrome."  Mostly just more the same bs , but with a golden calf, lol.

"I might be "MtF Transgender'  and you might like the label 'MtF Transsexual' more...Slightly different font on the wrapping, same essence"

A.) I don't do labels.

B.) Gender does not equal or mean the same as Sex

C.) TS does not equal or mean the same as TG

Just my own personal opinion but it does seem to take into consideration the actual meaning of the words.  No politics involved.

I was diagnosed by Dr. Benjamin as a "Type VI Transsexual" in 1966 at the age of 17 and back then anyone who had heard the word know what it meant - someone who's assigned gender at birth was at odds with their mental gender. I was born a transsexual and sought treatment to fix that, which was done in 1974. I was born transsexual but that was 'cured' by modern medicine an I am now just a woman with an odd medical history.

I don't use the term transgender as I don't feel it is applicable and is too broad in definition.

Can we please stop calling each other "false" this or that, just because someone under the TG umbrella  term disagrees if someone is sincere about being TS or TG or not. That happens when we are in the womb.
It is bad enough that society calls us this and that without us adding to it. We should display a united front against mainstream society that does not fully accept us yet.

WHY BE OUR OWN WORST ENEMY?

All this does is cause us to look like a bunch of fools to society.

I personally don't like using labels. I am a woman who happens to have a very serious defect with her genitals. There are plenty women who were born with XY chromosomes, but are women nonetheless on the exterior. This idea of whether to call us transgender or transsexual is simply another means of dividing an already divided group of people.

Quote from: aaggat on August 09, 2014, 05:02:55 PM
I thoroughly dislike the term Transgender. It allows the listener to place me in any classification THEY chose - drag queen / cross dresser / gender queer / whatever - and none of those are me.

I do not like being a transsexual but I would rather be thought of as transsexual than something that I am not.

Homestly i think you're over thinking it a bit. Most people out there have exactly zero idea about the difference between the two terms, other than the fact "transsexual" has a vaguely sinister and prurient overtone. Most non-Trans* people simply aren't that educated enough to understand the nuances.

Ive found people understand exactly what  I'm trying to say when i say transgender, so i stick with that.

Just for the record I consider myself transsexual because I am currently under going medical procedures to obtain the goal of full transition. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 06:54:52 PM
Just for the record I consider myself transsexual because I am currently under going medical procedures to obtain the goal of full transition. :)

are you implying that "medical procedures" are a requirement in order to obtain "full transition" ?

I do not like either of them,,, I am just a woman...

Are you implying that you are "cis"?

Quote from: peky on August 09, 2014, 09:24:38 PM

are you implying that "medical procedures" are a requirement in order to obtain "full transition" ?

No. I was just explaining why I consider myself transsexual. Jeesh!  ::)

The more I read this thread the more I think "I'm just some woman with issues. Everyone has them"

'Transgender/Transsexual' is more of a label I use for people who arent familiar with my background. Most trans people don't need that explaination, since a few words just about YOU is enough, no labels, just  who you are, not what you are

Quote from: Susan522 on August 09, 2014, 09:30:53 PM
Are you implying that you are "cis"?

Where does the "cis" designator resides ? In other words, which part of the human anatomy defines an individual "cis" ?

That is between your legs ? or what is between you ears ?

Medically and by necessity all of us are gendered by what is between our legs, but sooner or later all human define themselves by what is between their ears.

Based on the premise stated above, I know I was wrongfully gender at birth because the poor doctors have nothing to guide their decision but the nature of my genitals. Yet, I was born with a perfectly fine brain that tells me I am a female, and who am I to disagree with my brain.

We should be talking about cis-genital or trans-genital, the defect is not in our brain but rather in our genitals.

I know this position is rather unorthodox and that may not be considered or accepted but it is "mine" and I live by it. For me it has a very deep and important connotation in the sense that makes me no better, worst, or different that any other human female on earth.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 09:51:15 PM
No. I was just explaining why I consider myself transsexual. Jeesh!  ::)

Just asking for clarity....  ::)

Quote from: peky on August 10, 2014, 09:42:27 AMWhere does the "cis" designator resides ? In other words, which part of the human anatomy defines an individual "cis" ?   Where does the "cis" designator resides ? In other words, which part of the human anatomy defines an individual "cis" ?That is between your legs ? or what is between you ears ? ...I know this position is rather unorthodox and that may not be considered or accepted but it is "mine" and I live by it. For me it has a very deep and important connotation in the sense that makes me no better, worst, or different that any other human female on earth.

Gee.  I honestly don't know.  Apparently this is a term invented by the trans* "community", defined "at will" and used to identify someone as different from the rest of society.

IMHO it resides in the minds and hearts of people like yourself and is used in such a way as to appear somewhat confusing and contradictory. 

In this case, it has turned this thread into a total derail from the OP and so I apologize and will simply state that for me. I needed to transform my genitals so that I could live and enjoy and experience my life as a relatively normally bodied woman.  This is what I needed.

I personally prefer the term "transsexual" for what I am, because to me the problem wasn't so much with my social gender, it was always more with my physical sex. It was a problem of not having a female body.

I still have issues with the gender part of transition... sometimes I don't feel like I'm male or female socially, and that both gender roles are just social constructs, and it's picking your poison to try and fit in either. I didn't like being shoehorned in to the male "dudebro" expectations and being treated like a guy, but I don't really like the female beauty-standard expectations either. But in terms of physical sex, there's no doubt in my mind, I identify as female, I'm WAY happier as a girl, and would NEVER want to go back to having a male body.

So yeah... for me, the physical sex part of it is way more important, with gender as a secondary concern, so I self-identify as transsexual.

I think mostly people who don't like the term, it's because they think that the word "sex" in it makes people think it's about the act of having sex, rather than being about secondary sexual characteristics.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on August 10, 2014, 02:15:16 PM
I personally prefer the term "transsexual" for what I am, because to me the problem wasn't so much with my social gender, it was always more with my physical sex. It was a problem of not having a female body.

I still have issues with the gender part of transition... sometimes I don't feel like I'm male or female socially, and that both gender roles are just social constructs, and it's picking your poison to try and fit in either. I didn't like being shoehorned in to the male "dudebro" expectations and being treated like a guy, but I don't really like the female beauty-standard expectations either. But in terms of physical sex, there's no doubt in my mind, I'm WAY happier as a girl, and would NEVER want to go back to having a male body.

So yeah... for me, the physical sex part of it is way more important, with gender as a secondary concern, so I self-identify as transsexual.

I think mostly people who don't like the term, it's because they think that the word "sex" in it makes people think it's about the act of having sex, rather than being about secondary sexual characteristics.

I think this is an excellent analysis and clear demonstrates the difference between the meaning of the two terms, TS vs. TG.

I am pretty sure that your personal issues with your changing gender roles will diminish with time, especially after you are made physically whole.

I think that the difference between the meaning of the terms TS vs. TG,is the difference between the change in gender roles and physical characteristics.

I honestly don't care what I am called, transexual, transgender, trans or ->-bleeped-<-. As long as it's not disrespectful way then Im ok. Let's be real, our gender is Female but we were born with male genetalia. Their are way bigger issues and I've been called worse. If being called a ->-bleeped-<- bothers a girl so much, idk how she got through transition because thats just a prick compared to what we went through.

"If being called a ->-bleeped-<- bothers a girl so much, idk how she got through transition because thats just a prick compared to what we went through."

Well said.

I use transgender, because:
1. Confusion of what the difference between sexuality and gender. I consider it an inherently confusing term, though I fully understand what people mean when they use the term.

2. I don't consider myself, however much I'm transition to be completely one gender or another. I consider myself non-binary, at least in my brain.

OTOH, I feel that people can use whichever terms they want to identify. The only thing I have no use for is people who use terms like "true transsexual". Geeze. :)


--JaY

Quote from: Susan522 on August 15, 2014, 02:46:14 PM
"If being called a ->-bleeped-<- bothers a girl so much, idk how she got through transition because thats just a prick compared to what we went through."

Well said.

I never understood why that word bothered us so much. Then I heard someone say that "->-bleeped-<-" is the last word you hear right before they knock you to the pavement to kick the $#!+ out of you.

Now I understand.

to be completely honest, i'm not any kind of trans* at all. i'm just me.
but when labels are needed, i use transgender. just to say approximately in which way i differ from most other people.
and i only use transsexual to talk about f64.0. i hate the word, but only because "true" transsexuals are the only ones who are admitted any kind of treatment in norway. unless they find a rare and great doctor, or go outside the country.

I only use transsexual, as it relates to the medical condition; put more simply, a high intensity transsexual medical condition. Alternatively, there is the self-descriptor using Benjamin's scale as Type VI, psychosexually inverted. This condition is curable with SRS. As such, the terms trans*, trans, or transgender, simply do not apply to me; I am changing sex, not gender, because my problem is with sex identity; correcting my genitalia. My gender was always female, given that gender is between the ears; as I knew I was a girl at age three, it hasn't changed. Compared with sex, however, which is between the legs, which, well, next summer it will be all better there. :)

It's not my place to push my beliefs on anyone else, so my intent here is to only share what I believe about myself. That said, I do love dissent, to further spur conversion, consider others' opinions, and perhaps learn thing or two. Furthermore, and perhaps naturally so, I maintain that a better discussion is had with someone who disagrees with you, and is sagacious with respect to their position, contrasted with a personage who is nescient about their presuppositions.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 09, 2014, 12:28:59 PM
Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Sexual preference or attraction does not figure into it. :)

. 
That's a really helpful description, thank you..
I tend to use the word Trans in a group when I don't know all individuals and how they identify, I've not been corrected yet for using that term.?
I wish there were not all of these labels, and people could just be people, but I guess its necessary..

Quote from: GorJess on August 20, 2014, 11:35:28 AM
I only use transsexual, as it relates to the medical condition; put more simply, a high intensity transsexual medical condition. Alternatively, there is the self-descriptor using Benjamin's scale as Type VI, psychosexually inverted. This condition is curable with SRS. As such, the terms trans*, trans, or transgender, simply do not apply to me; I am changing sex, not gender, because my problem is with sex identity; correcting my genitalia. My gender was always female, given that gender is between the ears; as I knew I was a girl at age three, it hasn't changed. Compared with sex, however, which is between the legs, which, well, next summer it will be all better there. :)

It's not my place to push my beliefs on anyone else, so my intent here is to only share what I believe about myself. That said, I do love dissent, to further spur conversion, consider others' opinions, and perhaps learn thing or two. Furthermore, and perhaps naturally so, I maintain that a better discussion is had with someone who disagrees with you, and is sagacious with respect to their position, contrasted with a personage who is nescient about their presuppositions.

The Benjamin scale is a SEVERELY outdated piece of work, though. It's basically a "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" scale which says that nobody can be a "true" transsexual unless they were exclusively attracted to men pre-transition, SRS is their primary transition goal, and they have had high-intensity dysphoria from a young age.

I appreciate that the scale works for you, but just acknowledge that you're in a minority on that. And those of us who don't live up to Benjamin's standards can feel oppressed by having those standards applied to us, because we're basically being made to feel like lesser trans people because we weren't attracted to men and didn't know that we were girls from our first memories. Again, that scale basically says that we're inauthentic and not "true" transsexuals.

(Also, it makes the claim that nobody who was heterosexual pre-transition should get SRS at all, which, I'm sorry, is really inaccurate.)

I like that word "transophile" but I think it might be a little inaccurate. How about trans gynephile?

It's fascinating, true transsexual (which both sides of this mess up) refers to anyone planning on SRS; if not, you are labeled nonsurgical transsexual, according to Dr. Harry Benjamin's The Transsexual Phenomenon. Furthermore, as I understand it, the word true, in the phrase true transsexual, means 'truly in line with symptoms X, Y, Z', as opposed to true or false transsexual. None of the types are better than the other; in fact, I'd go so far as to say the smaller type number you are is more fortunate, as it just means less worries. After all, if one is not interested in SRS, well, then the concerns about having a vagina, that one who is pre-op would have, as I understand it, is not there. If the previous sentence is incorrect in any way, I would be happy to be corrected.

I will say though, the orientation bit I disagree, in reference to that text, and agree with you there, without question. Dr. Benjamin believed one could have a same-sex orientation, and still have a transsexual medical condition. As I've read, he thought it existed, certainly, but only in numbers and percentages of the natal female population. Now what that number is, is quite likely different from the 1960s, as gay and lesbian acceptance has expanded manyfold, and as such, greater numbers than the "4% exclusively homosexual" are likely the case today, in both natal individuals and those with a transsexual medical condition.

And yeah, I've come to realize it's a minority view, but it fits my narrative, so it makes the most sense to me, if only with respect to myself.

Quote from: Pinkkatie on August 20, 2014, 12:52:47 PM
I like that word "transophile" but I think it might be a little inaccurate. How about trans gynephile?

Can't say I like such terminology, but you should probably use more specific ancient Greek, as opposed to Latin, as trans is, for across, on the far side, beyond, which almost sounds like the individual orientation has changed there from male to female.

Why use ancient Greek? Gynephile does, from gunḗ, meaning "woman", and -phile, φίλος said phílos,  meaning "dear, beloved" (works with andro, too, for man). Ancient Greek is used in medicine because they were the first to do medicinal studies, namely Hippocrates, who you might recall the oath of. This trend continued with the Romans (who used Ancient Greek to get Latin words) and their enormous empire, and you get the picture. Last but not least, you can't mix a Latin root with an Ancient Greek one. If you wanted to use 'trans' as your prefix there, you'd need amāns rather than phile, as your suffix as it's the equal present active participle for the term loving.

As such, there's μετάβασις, said metavasis, meaning 'going from one place to another'; this could easily be synonymous with the definition, with the aforementioned 'places' one is going to is rather obvious (female or male). So maybe metavasiphile as a new, more dictionary-like, name for ->-bleeped-<-s?

Quote from: GorJess on August 20, 2014, 01:29:22 PM
It's fascinating, true transsexual (which both sides of this mess up) refers to anyone planning on SRS; if not, you are labeled nonsurgical transsexual, according to Dr. Harry Benjamin's The Transsexual Phenomenon. Furthermore, as I understand it, the word true, in the phrase true transsexual, means 'truly in line with symptoms X, Y, Z', as opposed to true or false transsexual. None of the types are better than the other; in fact, I'd go so far as to say the smaller type number you are is more fortunate, as it just means less worries. After all, if one is not interested in SRS, well, then the concerns about having a vagina, that one who is pre-op would have, as I understand it, is not there. If the previous sentence is incorrect in any way, I would be happy to be corrected.

I will say though, the orientation bit I disagree, in reference to that text, and agree with you there, without question. Dr. Benjamin believed one could have a same-sex orientation, and still have a transsexual medical condition. As I've read, he thought it existed, certainly, but only in numbers and percentages of the natal female population. Now what that number is, is quite likely different from the 1960s, as gay and lesbian acceptance has expanded manyfold, and as such, greater numbers than the "4% exclusively homosexual" are likely the case today, in both natal individuals and those with a transsexual medical condition.

And yeah, I've come to realize it's a minority view, but it fits my narrative, so it makes the most sense to me, if only with respect to myself.

Okay, guess I haven't read it, then. But again, yeah, we have come a long way socially since then, where now it's acknowledged that women can easily be feminine, masculine, straight, lesbians, femme, butch, and it's no difference to their identity as female.

Guess I'll just say that I think the scale is an oversimplification that doesn't cover the full range of trans experiences then and leave it at that.

(And I kinda have a vested interest in this, because in every single one of his writings, on the difference between heterosexual and homosexual trans people, early versus late transitioners, SRS-wanting versus non-op, I can never figure out where I fit. Because for me it was very much a sex thing, correcting my physical body, going on hormones and getting SRS, and I never really crossdressed, but at the same time I was heterosexual pre-transition and didn't even start having dysphoria until I was 13 or so. And in his scale, there's basically no place for someone like me. I end up in the middle, not quite fitting in to any box, in just about every generalization of trans people. And I also know a LOT of early-transitioning "homosexual" trans women who are non-op, which also bucks Benjamin's classifications. So yeah...)

Funny, isn't it, when some theory of statement doesn't "work for you", it must be wrong.  I would like to thank and acknowledge "GorJess" for making well worded corrections to the inaccuracies about Dr. Benjamin's "outdated" research.

It has always offended me how the majority of transgender activists have demagogued this seminal work, as was done in this total agenda driven mischaracterization, and frankly mis-statement of the simple facts.

"It's basically a "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" scale which says that nobody can be a "true" transsexual unless they were exclusively attracted to men pre-transition, SRS is their primary transition goal, and they have had high-intensity dysphoria from a young age."

This is not even close. to the truth!   You really might want to read  Benjamin's work before drawing so many erroneous conclusions.  It has been years since I read The Transsexual Phenomenon, (1966) .  Perhaps I have forgotten his mention of "homosexual/heterosexual" transsexuals ala Bailey/Blanchard. 

I was going off of the following article on the Benjamin scale:

http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html

If this is not an accurate representation of his scale, then by all means correct me. If it is accurate, then unless I'm reading it wrong, one must be at least a "4" on the Kinsey scale ("predominantly homosexual but more than incidentally heterosexual") in order to fit the classification of a "true transsexual" who seeks SRS.

The rest of my post, I might be wrong about, you're right, I was indeed confusing Benjamin with Blanchard.

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 19, 2014, 04:01:25 PM
I never understood why that word bothered us so much. Then I heard someone say that "->-bleeped-<-" is the last word you hear right before they knock you to the pavement to kick the $#!+ out of you.

Now I understand.

.   

When I was first learning about this stuff, I said that word once, and it felt so much like an insult or degrading term, I will never say it ever again.. Maybe cuz I was so bullied in school, or just cuz I'm old enough to know better now..?

I just want to add.

Are not all these things guidelines and not requirements.

The scales themselves show difference in examples of the scale.

I was Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)

Kinsey Scale: 6
6 Exclusively homosexual, with no heterosexual experience

But i was as stated
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse. (totally different then the scale)

So again we all have to remember these are just suggested guides to help.

So many take everything as black and white. Nothing is that easy in life.

As long as each person gets the treatment they need and is happy, who cares what some paper might say.

Back to the topic at hand The "Transgender" vs "Transsexual" terminology

I personally prefer transsexual because trans, in Latin, means moving across and I'm moving across my sex - my gender is staying the same.  However, I tend to just say trans and often transgender because when I say transsexual people tend to assume it's a sex thing/fetish or something.

Why can't we all just be queer?

Quote from: YinYanga on August 09, 2014, 12:27:08 PM
Hi hi

Recently I got into a conversation with a fellow transitioner (MtF) and we got to the topic of self-identification: transgender vs transsexual. She sees herself as transsexual and thinks transgender is a misnomer and for me its vice versa, it's just that I am not judgemental about people using either and getting to know someone personally is a better way to avoid the label altogether

It's hard when I get called transsexual because to me that term would mean something completely different: sexual attraction to (trans-people). I thought this was about gender, so I adopted TG.

While I am typing this I feel its more of a non-issue than I sometimes read it is. Some people are really adamant to point out the difference. Sure I know TG is more of an umbrella term and TS falls under it but for me they mean the same ...in my case

You should call yourself what feel right and people should respect it.
I dont like the word transsexual. because for me Sex and sexual make it sound like it something
sexually or has anything to do with sexuality.
I prefern transgender, or just trans, or transperson. its a more wide term but I feel it a good alternative.

I dont get those who tell you transgender are "fake transexuals" transexual are under the umbrella of transgender which include many diffrent people who feel there gender identity dose not fit complitely on how they where asigned at birth, so its a large mix where transexual are more specific, on the other hand it can be easy to make clear "what kind of transgender you are, by saying "im mtf" "im ftm" "im genderqueer" "binary" "non-binary" or whatever label you identify with.
-
maybe you are in a comunity where certain word are being used in certain ways. the terms change alot from where you are, exemple can ladyboy be an accepted word and a shamefull word. But I think it most important you use a word who feel describe you the best.

Before this gets out of hand - not suggesting it will ;D

Terms used on this site

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html

Quote from: Natkat on September 18, 2014, 03:54:23 PM
I dont like the word transsexual. because for me Sex and sexual make it sound like it something
sexually or has anything to do with sexuality.
I prefern transgender, or just trans, or transperson. its a more wide term but I feel it a good alternative.

That's why I never use the term.  Enough people already project sexual themes upon transpeople, so I try avoid language that makes that easier.