Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi,

   I am trying to get a sense of how Men & Woman think of us tweeners & niethers.

   There is NO WRONG answer or vote.  It is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE to vote that you do not consider Androgyne to be a valid gender alternative to male or female. You will not hurt our feelings.

  The purpose of this poll is to determine all points of view concerning Androgynes.  We are working to define ourselves to ourselves. We have no vast mountain of knowledge from which we can easily learn who we are.  References are scarce when you are in the androgyne business.

   I know you all love us and you can be sure that we love you too.  Don't be afraid to vote that we are deranged if that is your point of view.


Love and smiley huggies,   :)


Your friend,

Rebis

Quote
I accept Androgyne as a gender alternative. - 1 (100%)

So, that is the only opting I get eh?

Do I accept things I am not familiar with? Yes. An I certainly have no reason to think gender must only be male or female.
From my point of view an Androgyne has the potential to be far neater than any one else, however I have not known anyone who identifies as such that I am aware of so that is kind of a best/educated guess. This said from those I have met briefly the odds are not in favor of that notion, but that is more of differing personalities and differing opinions, I think. After all, to be Androgyne is to be human... (I.e. Diversity is grand, don't you think?)

Hey Rebis,

Nice to see you made this poll anyhow. And, hey, it doesn't appear 'mean' to me! 8)

Maybe allow people to suggest more options so they feel less awkward voting if they do? :P

Fers views:

QuoteI really just think its a phase. A place of safety while working out Gender issues

Quote from: no_id on August 05, 2007, 03:15:41 AM
Maybe allow people to suggest more options so they feel less awkward voting if they do? :P

I think we need at least two more options. The 'accept Androgyne' only has one option, and the 'don't accept' has three. We need more shades of grey here.

Some suggestions:

'It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.'

'Undecided'

'Don't understand it or know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other.'

'I somewhat believe it's a valid gender identity.'


Now I normally don't include an 'unsure' option in my polls, because it's a non-answer.
But in this case, when you're trying to get an idea of people's opinions here, I think it'd be useful.
Because at this point, it's basically an 'accept or don't accept' choice here.
That's not going to give an accurate reading on the consensus of opinion here.

I was/am M2F before figuring out that I'm androgyne, so I voted. You can probably guess that I recognize and accept androgyny as a viable option ;D

Nero's suggestion of adding undecided, and need more info is a good idea.

Zythyra

Although I can't personally relate to the feeling of being either/neither gender I can easily accept it as a valid identity.  Who am I to say otherwise and negate someone else's perception?

hugs & smiles
Emelye

Not a huge fan of labels, people are people and should do what makes them happy  ;D  Unless killing people or something makes them happy, then they are a bad person...

Hi,

   I added Nero's suggestions as they do provide for more variations in the answers.


   I want to thank Fer for being honest.

   

I only have the word of androgens to go by and what little research there is, but I can only conclude that how they feel about themselves is no less valid than how I feel about myself. Because of that, I feel it is a gender identity. This also has caused me to form the belief that gender is more of a spectrum than a "this or that" kind of thing.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Speaking for myself, I voted that androgynous peeps are deranged.

Quote from: Rebis on August 05, 2007, 12:54:05 AM

   There is NO WRONG answer or vote.  It is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE to vote that you do not consider Androgyne to be a valid gender alternative to male or female.

I hope so.  I just don't understand why some people would create threads in a form of a question and get all defensive and rude when our opinions are expressed.  Anyway, I voted for the following option: (My personal opinion)

QuoteIt's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Thundra on August 05, 2007, 11:41:14 PM
Speaking for myself, I voted that androgynous peeps are deranged.

We're coming to get you, Thundahraaaa!   - twist on 'Night of the living dead' early graveyard scene.

Posted on: August 06, 2007, 12:21:31 AM

---

Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 11:54:21 PM

QuoteIt's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity

tink :icon_chick:

good answer, Tink.  I appreciate the honesty.

I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.

Quote from: Kat on August 05, 2007, 11:06:47 AM
Not a huge fan of labels, people are people and should do what makes them happy  ;D  Unless killing people or something makes them happy, then they are a bad person...

now your putting bad people in a box.

People can´t be un-boxed, understanding and perception are box-shaped. The trick is to find the best, comfiest and most appropriate box for what´s inside.

Expression form, not identity, its entirely valid, but i feel, and considering how my very good friend feels, its a comfort zone to them, (female born) they use it as a happy intermediate while they decided and work things out without needing to deal with the other transition rubbish. but thats just them.

R :police:

I believe everyone has the right to believe.

I can readilly accept that Androgyne exists along the axis of the gender spectrum.

Buffy

Good work everybody.  Let's keep the votes coming.

It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.

I would have to plead ignorance on this one. 

I really don't know enough about it, and I don't like to form opinions without proper understanding. ^_^

That being said, I have nothing against it.

QuoteI really just think its a phase. A place of safety while working out Gender issues

While this is a valid POV, I just love that it is so similar to other similar opinions I hear all of the time, such as:

She doesn't really want to be a boy, it's just a phase they are going through.

He's not really gay, it's just a phase he is going through.

There are no switches, everyone is either a top or a bottom (because I said so)

And, my favorite: there are no such things as bisexuals, they are just sitting on the fence until they fall onto one side or the other.

And then there is this one I saw posted yesterday on Craig's List:

QuoteThere are only two genders, male and female. All the rest of you are freaks.

I just wanted you to know that you are in good company with your view that gender expression is binary in nature, and that everyone else is weird cause they are not like you.

Who ever thought that transitioning people and white supremacists would have so much in common!  ROFL!!!!

thats how i feel about my bisexuality, im exploring how i feel, and considering i dont ever wish to have a relationship with a female, my interest in them intimately might die off.
R :police:

Quotemy interest in them intimately might die off.

Sounds like wishful thinking. Nobody asks to be queer-identified. Or Bi-sexual. Not for the squeamish, that's for sure.

Then again, you might be str8 all your life and then ::bling:: suddenly you are not, or vice versa. It happens everyday all over the world to people just like you.

But just because you view your bisexuality as possibly temporary does not mean that other folks feel the same way. In fact, I know a BI-gal that is just as militant in her view that all people are really bisexual and that we just need to allow ourselves to express it.

Which is equally obnoxious to people that view androgynous people as non-existant.

I am utterly bemused constantly by the fact that Susan created this site to make a place where everyone can feel safe and welcomed, and yet, it is constantly used instead as a platform to express people's own internalized transphobia, homophobia and now, androgynophobia.

OK.  Time for a break.  ::phew: they all sigh in relief.

like in my post, i said its how i view MY bisexuality, not everyones, its a valid sexual identity, but for me, its an intermediate while i work things out.

Quote from: Rachael on August 06, 2007, 11:30:41 AM
like in my post, i said its how i view MY bisexuality, not everyones, its a valid sexual identity, but for me, its an intermediate while i work things out.

I have the same kind of bisexuality.  I can only see myself spending my life with a woman.  But the interest in intimacy with males is not going to drop off.  I'm okay with it, though.


Now, get back on topic, You!    >:(

QuoteDon't understand it or know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other.

Look kids, I don't even understand MYSELF!  No, I don't understand, and I don't care.  I really don't.  I don't mean this in a mean spirited way.... It doesn't matters to me.  I am firmly of the opinion that you need to lead your life in the way you best see fit.  As long as you don't trample the law or peep in my windows, it matters not to me. I don't feel uncomfortable being around others who are of questionable gender.  I usually don't even do any questioning.  I just accept people for who they are.

All of these discussions of this label or that label, the elitists and the whatever, do however twist my sensibilities some. That does give me negative vibes.

Cindi

QuoteWho ever thought that transitioning people and white supremacists would have so much in common!  ROFL!!!!

ROFL and Oy vey es mir!

I'd rather hear hateful comments from right wing supremacists than from my fellow trannies, at least I know where the right wing supremacists are coming from.  ::)

Zythyra

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 06, 2007, 04:27:52 PM

QuoteDon't understand it or know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other.

Look kids, I don't even understand MYSELF!  No, I don't understand, and I don't care.  I really don't.  I don't mean this in a mean spirited way.... It doesn't matters to me.  I am firmly of the opinion that you need to lead your life in the way you best see fit.  As long as you don't trample the law or peep in my windows, it matters not to me. I don't feel uncomfortable being around others who are of questionable gender.  I usually don't even do any questioning.  I just accept people for who they are.

All of these discussions of this label or that label, the elitists and the whatever, do however twist my sensibilities some. That does give me negative vibes.

Cindi

Hi Cindi,

   This poll is not meant as a challenge in anyway.  We are trying to gather information that is not available to us from the outside world.  I thought it would be interesting to gather this point of view from people I know and trust.  No elitism here.  I'm sure that the others would agree it would be hysterical if everyone agreed we don't exist.
   We androgynes, as a group, are in a place that you are not.  You can say "I'm a woman".  You can check off a box on a form that says "Male or Female". These things are not so important here on Susan's where all people are welcome, but out in the world, it is awkward.  We are trying to build a floor in a spot we are standing on.

    This poll is definitely not meant to indicate that any group is above or not above another.

    I did start a religier than thou thing somewhere, though.  Only because I am religier than all of you put together  :laugh:

  ***  I hope I didn't offend any of my siblings when I used the term 'we'.  I'm not trying to usurp the position of spokesperson for androgynes.  Do we have a spokesperson?  ???

I AM THE SPOKESPERSON!!!

I CAN FIX BICYCLE SPOKES...

Oh... you meant being the voice of the androgynes? 

Fat chance I'm taking that job!  You can have it, Reeb.  You can lead the revolution!

I'm barely capable of leading myself to the bathroom.

You do it, though.  I had to have Sophie basically carry me last night.

I swear, I am NEVER drinking that much at a go again!  EVER!

Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 05:43:17 PM
***  I hope I didn't offend any of my siblings when I used the term 'we'.  I'm not trying to usurp the position of spokesperson for androgynes.  Do we have a spokesperson?  ???

Uh.. *backs off slowly*...........................

I dont really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.  Its a way to test the soils

I voted for full acceptance and the way I look at it is as such.

Androgynes are a valid gender identity and any transsexual that treats them as invalid has no right from this point on to take any offense if a cisgendered person calls them a "chick with a dxxx", a "->-bleeped-<-", "confused" or various other offensive painful things. Any transsexual that engages in this hypocritical disrespect towards our androgyne siblings has no right to complain when other people tell them that their transsexuality is a phase or that they're deranged and insane.

You can have whatever opinion you want, but its not excuse to disrespect their gender identity.
[/rant]

Posted on: August 06, 2007, 07:40:34 PM

---

Quote from: Thundra on August 06, 2007, 11:07:21 AM
Who ever thought that transitioning people and white supremacists would have so much in common!  ROFL!!!!

I almost lol'd my pants off.

;D

Quote***  I hope I didn't offend any of my siblings when I used the term 'we'.  I'm not trying to usurp the position of spokesperson for androgynes.  Do we have a spokesperson?

Rebis,

I know of people who were appointed to boards of directors when they didn't show up to a meeting once. Better watch out, you might get elected, hehe  >:D

Zythyra

PS, I'm spokesperson for one androgyne only, moi.

This has been an interesting poll. Thank you everyone for being honest with us. I have to admit it doesn't seem very straightfoward to many unless they can go with the "I am who I am and thats all that I am, you be who you'll be because thats who you be".

I'm happy for who we are and nothing anyone else could say will change that. Just because you may not believe in us doesn't mean we'll disappear. Atleast I don't think we will.

Marq and Mia
Just wait till its time to pick out a movie to rent
And why do I keep walking into the wall between the mens and womens restrooms?

Quote from: zythyra on August 05, 2007, 10:01:23 AM
I was/am M2F before figuring out that I'm androgyne, so I voted. You can probably guess that I recognize and accept androgyny as a viable option ;D

Hmm, I thought this was a poll to figure out what TS's thought of androgynes.  I wonder how many androgynes actually voted, which would skew the results if you only wanted TS's opinions. ???  Oh well.

Quote from: Marq and Mia on August 06, 2007, 11:19:00 PMJust because you may not believe in us doesn't mean we'll disappear. Atleast I don't think we will.

*claps her hands and believes in Marq and Mia*

Now you won't die!

:D

[/peter pan references]

Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 12:40:26 AM
Hmm, I thought this was a poll to figure out what TS's thought of androgynes.  I wonder how many androgynes actually voted, which would skew the results if you only wanted TS's opinions. ???  Oh well.

Uh huh.  Like you said.  Oh well.  Or like I say.  Whatever!  ;)

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 05:43:17 PM
Do we have a spokesperson?  ???

We do now. My condolences.  :)

  Nfr

I'm going to refer to the very first sentence (after 'Hi') of this thread:

QuoteI am trying to get a sense of how Men & Woman think of us tweeners & neithers.

This sentence means a lot since it is the one phrase that explains everything and all about this poll with sincere, and rightful expectations.

Would the outcome be blurred if Androgynes voted? Naturally, and I expect none did, and I even expect that Z would remove their vote if it made others feel more at ease and/or if they believed it would increase the reliability of this poll's outcome.

This, however, isn't a battefield; not a place to drive people up the fench or whatsoever.. If someone asks you which icecream flavour you like better; chocoloate, strawberry or vanilla, then you don't punch your neighbour down for liking a different flavour, right? Although the question asked is of  a more serious nature, it as well doesn't represent a thesis.
And, even though I enjoy how some and several are reflecting on their answers, I hope they keep in mind not to offend anyone, and that the purpose of this thread is to gather information for a report rather than a research paper.

Honestly, when I look through this thread I encounter some sour taste, and I'm not even looking at the votes while experiencing this. Additionally, I don't know where it is coming from or why it's even there. Nevertheless, if at any point this somewhat escalates I ask for Rebis to delete this thread since its integer intention would be lost, disgarded and unrecognisable.

These were the two cents of a peacekeeper, not a soldier, and perhaps to only serve as a prevention.

Cheers.

QuoteWould the outcome be blurred if Androgynes voted? Naturally, and I expect none did, and I even expect that Z would remove their vote if it made others feel more at ease and/or if they believed it would increase the reliability of this poll's outcome.

Yes, I'll remove my vote if people wish... sorry... I didn't mean to mess up the results. Of course, for all I know, my electronic vote was counted for Buchanon instead of Gore >:D

While it's hard to read posts of people who feel we don't exist, for the most part I'm pleased to see results that most people either believe who we are or are interested in learning more about us.

One reason I voted. In 1993 I was diagnosed TS and a couple of years later I made a difficult choice not to proceed further. I've been other/neither gender ever since. Recently I've identified as androgyne, since it seemed to best explain this non-gender space I'm in. Like many other androgyne persons, I continue looking deeper and questioning everything. At any point in time I could decide to transition again, get the letter from my old therapist updated and proceed. So maybe I'm androgyne, maybe not. Maybe I'm TS, maybe not. I'm still trying to figure it all out... I'll let you know when I get there, lol.  ;D

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on August 07, 2007, 06:59:43 AM
I've been other/neither gender ever since. Recently I've identified as androgyne, since it seemed to best explain this non-gender space I'm in.

This seems to fit with both the position that 'androgyne' is a possible gender identity and the one that it is merely a matter of gender expression. It also shows that 'identity' is not that clear-cut a term, either.

To take myself as an example (because it's much harder to look into someone else's mind), there is a part in me that is quite decidedly female. That part feels like what has been described as 'gender identity'. On the other hand, after quite a bit of introspection, both intellectual and emotional, I've come to a conclusion that there are also several traits in me that are male, and that both the female and the male traits really are me, not just a fake. In that sense, I identify as some sort of a mix of the two genders. It's not just gender expression, but it's not quite what is usually meant by gender identity either.

That said, there seem to be also people who really consider themselves androgyne in terms of 'gender identity' in the classical sense. I'm not one of them, though; like some others I've just given up trying to become purely either gender. But then, I often have more than one flavour of ice cream at once, too.  :)

Returning to the topic, I'd really like to know why some here don't accept the possibility of androgyne identity. Anyone want to share their opinions in a bit more detail?

  Nfr

QuoteThis seems to fit with both the position that 'androgyne' is a possible gender identity and the one that it is merely a matter of gender expression. It also shows that 'identity' is not that clear-cut a term, either.

For me it's more of an identity, how I feel on an internal level, and also ways in which I relate to other people. I live in a rural area, so expressing a flamboyantly androgynous appearance isn't a reality, much as I would enjoy expressing myself that way.

QuoteReturning to the topic, I'd really like to know why some here don't accept the possibility of androgyne identity. Anyone want to share their opinions in a bit more detail?

Even as an androgyne, it took me years to realize that the definition encompassed the internal sense of self, as opposed to only appearance.

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on August 06, 2007, 10:30:46 PM
PS, I'm spokesperson for one androgyne only, moi.

I'm sorry, Zythyra,  I only heard you say "I'm spokesperson".  I guess you're it.

Hee hee hee hee hee

QuoteI'm sorry, Zythyra,  I only heard you say "I'm spokesperson".  I guess you're it.

Hee hee hee hee hee

Rebis, You could regret this  >:D

Hear ye, hear ye! Now that I, the honorable Zythyra (all bow down on one knee, no, the other knee silly, and send cash) am the official grand androgyne spokesperson.... blah blah blah... I pronounce that in my quingdom, no, in my keendom, hmmmm, well anyway, everyone shall renounce all gender, for there is no male, there is no female, all for none and none for all! Also in this fabulous quingdom, we reject all things vanilla in favor of chocolate, the one true flavor...............   ;D ;D ;D

OK, sorry everyone, the power was starting to go to my head. I'll stop now. :embarrassed:

Zythyra

PS, I have removed my vote.

Quote from: no_id on August 07, 2007, 03:19:09 AMIf someone asks you which icecream flavour you like better; chocoloate, strawberry or vanilla, then you don't punch your neighbour down for liking a different flavour, right?

You mean you aren't supposed to beat up people for liking different ice cream flavors?!?

OH NOES!

*hides from the cops*

;)

Quote from: Sophia on August 07, 2007, 02:37:58 PM

Quote from: no_id on August 07, 2007, 03:19:09 AMIf someone asks you which icecream flavour you like better; chocoloate, strawberry or vanilla, then you don't punch your neighbour down for liking a different flavour, right?

You mean you aren't supposed to beat up people for liking different ice cream flavors?!?

OH NOES!

*hides from the cops*

;)

[Mental note 3.6: bring kevlar and helmet when running into Sophie.]

Quote from: zythyra on August 07, 2007, 08:57:34 AM
Also in this fabulous quingdom, we reject all things vanilla in favor of chocolate, the one true flavor...............   ;D ;D ;D

Can I have a special exemption and a permit for vanilla-flavoured chocolate? Pretty please?

  Nfr

I had fig ice cream today. Nearly got punched by a spaniard who preferred the kiwi.

I didn´t vote, but I made a comment so I wouldn´t lose this thread. If I were to vote I would say it can be a gender identity, but it is one that would have to be learned and adopted. Like being a musician or a painter or a writer. There are natural inclinations but they have to be worked and explored and internalised before they become identity.

So I would say it is an expression, my identity at present is male. I was born such and raised such, and having no real example as a child of any androgynes, I learnt myself to be such. Now I am learning that I am much better fit as androgyne, and am so learning to internalise that expression.....

Also, I can accept TS not believing in androgyny. If you had lived with your life focused for your desire to jump a huge gulf in gender, would you believe there are some people happily living in the dark down there? I wouldn´t.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 07, 2007, 03:07:00 PM
I had fig ice cream today. Nearly got punched by a spaniard who preferred the kiwi.

There's fig and kiwi ice cream????

*wants to try it so bad!*

Quote
Also, I can accept TS not believing in androgyny. If you had lived with your life focused for your desire to jump a huge gulf in gender, would you believe there are some people happily living in the dark down there? I wouldn´t.

Maybe I'm just surprisingly open minded?

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 07, 2007, 03:07:00 PM
I had fig ice cream today. Nearly got punched by a spaniard who preferred the kiwi.

   I thought I told you to carry a sword.  They come in handy for uses other than stabbing dough nuts.  I just don't know what I'm going to do with you.   :icon_no:

   Well have fun, but keep your fists up high.

Quote from: Ell on August 07, 2007, 09:23:06 PM

Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 12:23:45 AM
'Night of the living dead' early graveyard scene.

that was a good scene!!!

in some ways androgyny seems to be the easiest thing to be, and also the hardest. it would be a big plus if you didn't have the same kind of extreme identity crisis that many transsexuals have.

Personally, I do have that kind of crisis.  Every day.

Quotei define that kind of crisis as 'the self rejecting the self'. it's an extremely painful sort of...depression, i guess you'd call it, clinically, but really it's more like self torture, which is both extremely painful and very difficult to shut down.

Been there.  Done that.  Ask my fiancée.  I spend a lot of time in that mental state.

Quotei believe it was this specific aspect of suffering that led Doctor Benjamin to the conclusion that transsexuals could not really be cured, per se, without allowing them to transition. so if you've never experienced that kind of suffering, i salute you.

I have, unfortunately.

Quoteon the other hand, where is androgyny covered in the SOC?

It's not.

Quotewhat legal (and medical) remedies do you need, if any, to transition to androgyny?

I'd KILL for my gender identity to be legally recognised so that my sex marker could be removed from my birth certificate, my passport, my driver's license...

I desperately need a hysterectomy.  I want top surgery to remove my breasts.  I am gender neutral, in my head.  The idea of being male feels wrong.  The idea of being female feels wrong. 

Quotedo any such remedies exist?

Since it's not covered in the SOC, I'm subject to the same difficulties women have in pursuing hysterectomy.  General rules for elective hysterectomy?  30 years old.  Other methods of birth control have failed.  3 or more children.  In a stable relationship, preferably married.  Some doctors will do it without meeting those standards, but because apparently women cannot know their own minds, hysterectomy increases risk of malpractice suit.

As far as top surgery goes... I'm pretty much screwed.  I'd have to get diagnosed ftm. 

I don't believe in lying.  At all.  So that is impossible.  My other option?  Black market.

Disclaimer: Nero's opinion and his alone.

Yes, I do believe Androgyne is a valid gender identity. If a person can be born with the opposite gender brain to their body, why couldn't a person be born with a mixed gender brain?
Everything, especially in biology is not absolute.
I believe it may actually be more common than most people think. I think a lot of people identifying as TS are in fact androgynes, who knew they weren't their birth gender, so the only other alternative they were aware of was the opposite gender.
Zythyra and DeanO are examples of this. People who believed at first they were TS because they knew for a fact they weren't their birth gender, and then later realized that Androgyne suited them much better. Easier access to information on Androgyne and the acceptance that it is a valid gender identity may help people like Zythyra and DeanO come to a realization of themselves much easier and sooner.

That being said, I do think some androgynous males and females mistake behavioural traits for being androgyne, when it's nothing more than the person being their birth gender with an androgynous personality.

I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative

Quote from: Ell on August 07, 2007, 09:23:06 PM

Quote from: Rebis on August 06, 2007, 12:23:45 AM
'Night of the living dead' early graveyard scene.

that was a good scene!!!

in some ways androgyny seems to be the easiest thing to be, and also the hardest. it would be a big plus if you didn't have the same kind of extreme identity crisis that many transsexuals have. i define that kind of crisis as 'the self rejecting the self'. it's an extremely painful sort of...depression, i guess you'd call it, clinically, but really it's more like self torture, which is both extremely painful and very difficult to shut down. i believe it was this specific aspect of suffering that led Doctor Benjamin to the conclusion that transsexuals could not really be cured, per se, without allowing them to transition. so if you've never experienced that kind of suffering, i salute you.

on the other hand, where is androgyny covered in the SOC? what legal (and medical) remedies do you need, if any, to transition to androgyny? do any such remedies exist?

-ell

   Hi Ell,

    I understand what you are saying.  I've been through that terrible pain and depression.  For some reason, i am in a good place right now.  I think it's because I'm here on this site and working with like minded individuals to understand myself.
    It helps knowing there are others like me.  I just wish they didn't have to suffer too.  I also am beginning to think that aging is helping me, but I'm not certain if it is or how it may be helping.  I am hoping my testosterone levels are dropping even though my doctor said they are normal (darn it).
   
   I used to NEED to have certain parts removed, but that seems to have calmed down at this time.  I still don't care if I have those parts or not, though.  I understand how Tay really does need medical attention because of how I've felt about myself.  I think the medical community doesn't really have an understanding of us.


Have fun,

Rebis

Quotein some ways androgyny seems to be the easiest thing to be, and also the hardest. it would be a big plus if you didn't have the same kind of extreme identity crisis that many transsexuals have. i define that kind of crisis as 'the self rejecting the self'. it's an extremely painful sort of...depression, i guess you'd call it, clinically, but really it's more like self torture, which is both extremely painful and very difficult to shut down. i believe it was this specific aspect of suffering that led Doctor Benjamin to the conclusion that transsexuals could not really be cured, per se, without allowing them to transition. so if you've never experienced that kind of suffering, i salute you.

I don't know how it is for other androgynes, but my levels of dysphoria were extremely intense, which is why I transitioned in the first place. FWIW, my therapists' diagnosis at that time was that I was/am TS, no question about it. When I made the decision to simply try and live as a non-op ts/andro/whatever and honor who I am, although my body is what it is, and my mind/spirit is something else, things seemed to get better. I still have my days of crisis though. How much of that is gender identity and how much is simply due to my feelings of not being able to safely be myself in a binary society? No easy answer.

Quoteon the other hand, where is androgyny covered in the SOC? what legal (and medical) remedies do you need, if any, to transition to androgyny? do any such remedies exist?

There is overlap regarding remedies. There are androgynes who opt for surgeries or HRT. There is currently no legal recognition of other genders besides m or f. I'd love if I could choose other for all my legal documents, passport, drivers license, etc.

QuoteCan I have a special exemption and a permit for vanilla-flavoured chocolate? Pretty please?

Sure thing, since you asked nice. I'm a benevolent ruler. ;D Now I'm really curious about fig and kiwi ice cream. They sound like androgynous flavors.

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on August 08, 2007, 10:32:00 AM
Now I'm really curious about fig and kiwi ice cream. They sound like androgynous flavors.

Zythyra

I think that too.

Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2007, 11:23:44 PM
That being said, I do think some androgynous males and females mistake behavioural traits for being androgyne, when it's nothing more than the person being their birth gender with an androgynous personality.

Somehow this really seems to add up funny to what happened to me today.
To pull out a context: I was working at a company today to figure out whether or not I want to work there in the future, and somehow ended up cleaning things with some random girl I had never met before.

Somewhere along the conversation she asked me if I was good with technical things, and I just noted that I wasn't too bad at fixing things if they had to be fixed. She then questioned if perhaps I had a lot of T in my body, and I countered it stating that although my walk's more masculine, and I can fix things it probably had little to do with hormones. As I put it "I figured my parents just dumped a lot of everything in me to create one joyful chaos wherin I could decide for myself whether I'm a girl or a boy. In the end I'm really just neither, floating inside and outside as some lose projectile"

She took it as it was, without asking any questions (miracle, miracle although it's worth noting that she came from a large city, and easily chit-chatted about transsexuals and homosexuals), and I sensed that she really didn't see me as a butch lesbian or a boi or whatsoever at any point. However, she did bring up my androgyny by observing my behaviour and placing it in the stereotypical male and female boxes. That said; they really just are my personal skills, and I walk the way I feel comfortable, but it's still a funny notion one way or the other ;)

no_id is now done rambling...

Quote from: Blanche on August 08, 2007, 12:46:19 AM
I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative

Any particular reason why?

i don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.

reason:  i just don't

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
i don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.

reason:  i just don't

I already knew that.

I also knew your reason would be brief.

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

:o

Quote from: Ell on August 08, 2007, 02:42:47 PM

Quote from: Tay on August 07, 2007, 11:09:08 PM
I desperately need a hysterectomy.  I want top surgery to remove my breasts.  I am gender neutral, in my head.  The idea of being male feels wrong.  The idea of being female feels wrong.

Tay,

you may not be transsexual, but you are obviously transgender, and you should not have any more difficulty than any other transgender patient in getting a letter on that basis. the letter does not need to specify that you are FTM, just that you have Gender Dysphoria.

as for changing your documents, that may be a little tricky. but perhaps not impossible.

Trouble lies in the fact that the DSM and the SOC both only include the binary as examples.  Finding someone who is willing to think outside of those boxes and take the risk of malpractice suits?

Not easy.  And I'm not allowed to go black market.

   Yeah.  Don't go black market, Tay. It could not only destroy you, but it will not contribute to getting the system to work better.

   I wish I could help you.

Quote from: Rebis on August 08, 2007, 10:56:20 PM
   Yeah.  Don't go black market, Tay. It could not only destroy you, but it will not contribute to getting the system to work better.

   I wish I could help you.

Error and Sophie would kick my butt from here to kingdom come and back again, before stringing me up by my toenails, telling me off and forbidding me from masturbating or having sex for the rest of my life.

Quote from: Ell on August 08, 2007, 11:20:20 PM
i think you should get Rebecca (the activist) to petition the SOC and get androgyny included on the schedule.

Unfamiliar with this Rebecca.

Ah.  Was unaware of Reeb's activism.

Quote from: Ell on August 09, 2007, 12:53:43 AM

Quote from: Tay on August 09, 2007, 12:05:13 AM
Ah.  Was unaware of Reeb's activism.

still, however, i cannot believe that a gender therapist will not give you a letter. i can't believe they would consider you a greater risk than a TS. that just doesn't make sense. since the surgery you need is typically regarded as FTM, then get close to some FTM's and get recommendations regarding good gender therapists. then be up front with the therapist, explain your situation, and get an answer from her on the first session, whether you getting a letter would be out of the question. if she says it would be unlikely, then graciously end the session and see another therapist.

The therapist thing tends to be complicated by my dread fear of all forms of shrinks.  (Yay for being the subject of psychological experiments as a child!)  Error and Sophie are going to preview the therapist they're planning on going to, to see if she'll be at all interested in trying to help me, but the SOC are there to protect doctors, as much as anything else...  Makes things hard.

I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative

QuoteTrouble lies in the fact that the DSM and the SOC both only include the binary as examples.

Exactly! The DSM and SOC are completely informed and constructed around the belief that there are two and only two genders. They really haven't figured out how to deal with gender awareness and expression outside the binary. At this time, the best one can hope for is to find sympathetic health care practitioners to receive the services and treatments we desire for ourselves. Either that, or lie, which for me isn't an option.

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on August 09, 2007, 09:16:12 AM

QuoteTrouble lies in the fact that the DSM and the SOC both only include the binary as examples.

Exactly! The DSM and SOC are completely informed and constructed around the belief that there are two and only two genders. They really haven't figured out how to deal with gender awareness and expression outside the binary. At this time, the best one can hope for is to find sympathetic health care practitioners to receive the services and treatments we desire for ourselves. Either that, or lie, which for me isn't an option.

Zythyra

There is good reason that these documents are set up to deal with the binary.

Both are set up to deal with practitioner diagnoses and procedures. They are not set up to define ranges of human behavior/being.

DSM, of any designation, is a way for practitioners to communicate with one another about what they see in clientele and to form a lexicon that llows them, rgeardles of language and training, to speak sensibly about those clients.

It is not meant to validate or invalidate a particular form of human being or behavior.

Since the binary is true to life for the vast majority of human beings, the documents use the binary as a reference point for their statements about such people and our behaviors.

I find androgynes to be gender expressionists rather than a gender identity. 

Quote from: NicholeW. on August 09, 2007, 01:05:04 PM
I find androgynes to be gender expressionists rather than a gender identity. 

No, no: for some it is clearly an identity, not just a matter of expression -- or in some cases, it can even be just an identity, without any clearly visible androgyne gender expression.

Also, gender identity may not be all that uniform either. It's entirely possible to identify as androgyne with respect to social gender (again, with little actual expression) yet have a clear binary gender preference about the anatomy. Or, I have to assume, any combination.

The SoC acknowledges this in a way, to the extent that the desire to reassign anatomical sex to match social gender identity is what defines a transsexual, relative to other flavours of transgendered. That isn't the whole picture, though, especially since it assumes there are only two choices for either (of course with the proviso that the intersexed should be corrected to a real sex).

  Nfr

QuoteDo FtM's & MtF's think androgynes are wierd or crazy?

they aint crazy or wierd. I accept androgyne as a gender alternative.

QuoteNo, no: for some it is clearly an identity, not just a matter of expression -- or in some cases, it can even be just an identity, without any clearly visible androgyne gender expression.

Also, gender identity may not be all that uniform either. It's entirely possible to identify as androgyne with respect to social gender (again, with little actual expression) yet have a clear binary gender preference about the anatomy. Or, I have to assume, any combination.

The SoC acknowledges this in a way, to the extent that the desire to reassign anatomical sex to match social gender identity is what defines a transsexual, relative to other flavours of transgendered. That isn't the whole picture, though, especially since it assumes there are only two choices for either (of course with the proviso that the intersexed should be corrected to a real sex).

  Nfr

No, No?

Sorry. I thought I was supposed to give my opinion. That was my opinion about androgynes and about why DSM/SOC are set up the way they are. 

I surely did not mean to sound omniscient or dismissive. And I imagine none of us intentionally tries to sound stoopid. I surely was not.

Maybe as I post more I will learn to better word my responses.  :icon_redface:

Nichole

crazy or weird? not all of them, but this goes for m2f, f2m, and non trans people too :P

R :police:

Quote from: NicholeW. on August 09, 2007, 03:44:32 PM

QuoteNo, no: for some it is clearly an identity, not just a matter of expression -- or in some cases, it can even be just an identity, without any clearly visible androgyne gender expression.

Also, gender identity may not be all that uniform either. It's entirely possible to identify as androgyne with respect to social gender (again, with little actual expression) yet have a clear binary gender preference about the anatomy. Or, I have to assume, any combination.

The SoC acknowledges this in a way, to the extent that the desire to reassign anatomical sex to match social gender identity is what defines a transsexual, relative to other flavours of transgendered. That isn't the whole picture, though, especially since it assumes there are only two choices for either (of course with the proviso that the intersexed should be corrected to a real sex).

  Nfr

No, No?

Sorry. I thought I was supposed to give my opinion. That was my opinion about androgynes and about why DSM/SOC are set up the way they are. 

I surely did not mean to sound omniscient or dismissive. And I imagine none of us intentionally tries to sound stoopid. I surely was not.

Maybe as I post more I will learn to better word my responses.  :icon_redface:

Nichole

No no, Nichole. You worded it fine. You answered the question asked with the poll choice you voted. That was the whole purpose of the poll, for posters to state their honest opinions on Androgynes and not hold back.
Your post is fine and entirely appropriate given the question asked. :)

Thanks for telling me, Nero. :)

I was worried I had missed something.

Nichole

Quote from: Chris on August 09, 2007, 03:09:42 PM

QuoteDo FtM's & MtF's think androgynes are wierd or crazy?

they aint crazy or wierd. I accept androgyne as a gender alternative.

Hi Chris,

   You make me proud.  I don't think you've ever made a statement I haven't agreed with.  Thanks.

Posted on: August 09, 2007, 07:51:35 PM

---

Quote from: NicholeW. on August 09, 2007, 03:44:32 PM
No, No?

Sorry. I thought I was supposed to give my opinion. That was my opinion about androgynes and about why DSM/SOC are set up the way they are. 

I surely did not mean to sound omniscient or dismissive. And I imagine none of us intentionally tries to sound stoopid. I surely was not.

Maybe as I post more I will learn to better word my responses.  :icon_redface:

Nichole

Don't sweat it, Nichole.
   Your opinion really really is appreciated.

Posted on: August 09, 2007, 07:54:24 PM

---

Quote from: Tay on August 09, 2007, 12:05:13 AM
Ah.  Was unaware of Reeb's activism.

       I'm barely aware of it myself.  I try to write letters when possible.  I truly would love to be a serious full time advocate for people like us.  Maybe as time passes, I'll learn the skills.

       Sometimes, I forget I was Rebecca.  I miss her.   :'(

So far a pretty large number of people consider androgynes to be valid in their identity. Those that don't see it as valid (either because they consider it gender expression, being weird, just a phase or for reasons unknown) almost come up to equal with those that do.

46.5% as compared to 39.6%

and then we've got about 13.9% of the iffy ones. Unsure or admits they don't know enough, or thinks its valid but isn't certain.

So not noting the ones that are on the fence essentially, its a semi even split between acceptance and non acceptance (with almost a 10% boost for acceptance). And that's just in the trans community itself. I shudder to think of the poll numbers for the cisgendered world. Probably more like 90% non accepting and 10% accepting. Still gonna fight for my fiancée to get acceptance though, as daunting as the odds may be.

:icon_dizzy:

Just to pose a question to those who don't see androgyne as a valid gender identity.
No judgment, just discussion. Reasons why you don't see it as valid? Is it that you believe being born with a mixed or neither gender is impossible? Again, no judgment, honesty is what's wanted here.

*Sophie chains herself to the doghouse and makes a solemn promise to not attack*

:D

Quote from: Ell on August 09, 2007, 11:36:11 PM

Quote from: Tay on August 09, 2007, 01:02:48 AM
The therapist thing tends to be complicated by my dread fear of all forms of shrinks.  (Yay for being the subject of psychological experiments as a child!)  Error and Sophie are going to preview the therapist they're planning on going to, to see if she'll be at all interested in trying to help me, but the SOC are there to protect doctors, as much as anything else...  Makes things hard.

hmm, though you said you were desperate to have the surgery, the biggest obstacle to getting anything done seems to be...yourself!

you are putting up obstacles rather than jumping a few hurdles to reach your goal.

you are holding back, not committing; maybe even procrastinating.

i'm guessing you haven't even reached a solid decision as to which way to turn next in this issue. and that's ok. i would say, just bask in your confusion for a while, (it's a heady elixir, isn't it?) and don't look for an answer just yet.

-ell

Ell, the sarcasm is kind of unnecessary. Tay has a solid and real phobia of psychologists and doctors, enough of one to cause panic attacks in their presence. In fact I'd say having me and Err preview a psychologist beforehand (and check over other good psychologists to preview) is the most solid plan Tay has come up with yet to combat the problems with the SOC and Tay's own mental issues.

I sincerely doubt breaking down into a panicking screaming mess or going into a silent blackout episode around an unchecked psychologist will help Tay get surgery any faster will it?

Fact is, I've been looking through medical contacts and biology folk to find doctors that will perform a hysterectemy for Tay at a price that won't destroy us financially (a plan Tay formulated with me). Err and I will find a psychologist that won't put Tay into hysterics or a breakdown as well as being androgyne-friendly, which is also a plan Tay devised.

If Tay did not have these non-neurotypical reactions to shrinks and doctors, anyone could think Tay was just procrastinating out of fear. But with the knowledge I have of Tay's breakdowns from these people I can tell you that's not the case.

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 12:16:00 AM
Ell, the sarcasm is kind of unnecessary.

i wasn't being sarcastic. my feeling is that sometimes it is better to step back and get comfortable with the idea that sometimes we don't have all the answers, and we shouldn't always force them.

Quote from: Sophia on August 09, 2007, 09:19:07 PM
I shudder to think of the poll numbers for the cisgendered world. Probably more like 90% non accepting and 10% accepting. Still gonna fight for my fiancée to get acceptance though, as daunting as the odds may be.

:icon_dizzy:

Trans people are often those with the most invested in the idea of binary gender, the idea that even though your gender can end up the complete opposite of your body and chromosomes, any other mix-up is somehow completely impossible.  Most cisgendered people will be completely clueless about androgyne/intergender identities but a fair proportion will accept they exists when its explained to them.  If we explain it as another form of gender dysphoria they have no reason to think it's any less likely to be real than transsexualism.

(Yeah I know a lot of people don't believe TS exists either, but it's probably not as many as 90%)

Quote from: Sophia on August 09, 2007, 09:19:07 PM

<snip...>

So not noting the ones that are on the fence essentially, its a semi even split between acceptance and non acceptance (with almost a 10% boost for acceptance). And that's just in the trans community itself. I shudder to think of the poll numbers for the cisgendered world. Probably more like 90% non accepting and 10% accepting. Still gonna fight for my fiancée to get acceptance though, as daunting as the odds may be. *

:icon_dizzy:

And best of success in that, Sophia!  It's scary, and it seems as though the odds aren't great, but I wish you well in the try!   :)

( * Bolding emphasis mine...)

Scott

Quote from: Ell on August 10, 2007, 01:38:52 AM

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 12:16:00 AM
Ell, the sarcasm is kind of unnecessary.

i wasn't being sarcastic. my feeling is that sometimes it is better to step back and get comfortable with the idea that sometimes we don't have all the answers, and we shouldn't always force them.

I dunno the last line of your post seemed kind of absurd in the way it was written, so it just screamed sarcasm to me. So confused....

Feel free to state your own opinions. I havent responded to this post since I am not TS, and am someone that can be called androgyne among other "labels". The poll and remarks to me is a little curious. The results of acceptance doesnt really matter to me personally, though it does answer a popular question for those that worry about the binary vs spheres/spectrum debate.  It just quantifies the TS view.

I am not going to comment on anything except to restate to feel free to state your real honest opinion.

And I think the urge for androgynes at least to jump in and defend or debate any views should be limited. Unless doing so is intent on bringing out more information on one's view.

Non-androgyne however feel free to debate.

Thank you for posting this poll Rebis, and those that have answered it honestly and truthfully. And thanks to those with comments.

Quote from: Nichole W. on August 09, 2007, 03:44:32 PM
Sorry. I thought I was supposed to give my opinion.

So you were, and thank you for doing so. If I sounded like I was attacking that opinion or reading too much into it, I'm sorry.

Quote from: Nichole W. on August 09, 2007, 03:44:32 PM
Maybe as I post more I will learn to better word my responses.  :icon_redface:

You do fine, just don't follow my lead.  :-\

Cheers,

  Nfr

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 03:39:09 AM

Quote from: Ell on August 10, 2007, 01:38:52 AM

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 12:16:00 AM
Ell, the sarcasm is kind of unnecessary.

i wasn't being sarcastic. my feeling is that sometimes it is better to step back and get comfortable with the idea that sometimes we don't have all the answers, and we shouldn't always force them.

I dunno the last line of your post seemed kind of absurd in the way it was written, so it just screamed sarcasm to me. So confused....

   When I first read Ell's post, I had a sense that it could be sarcastic.  However, I read it again and I realized that it was not being snarky. I think it was phrased in a way where the tone could be misinterpreted.  But I know Ell was trying to be sympathetic and so took it as that.
   Sometimes, when we write something, we know we're getting our ideas across but it's not immediately clear if we are expressing our intentions.  When in doubt, I like to reread the post with a positive view to see if my first impression was off.
   I'm happy to see that you two talked it out.  I have an intense aversion to conflict.  I like people to be happy, or if they are in a bad place, I like them to feel safe.
   

Posted on: August 10, 2007, 07:58:55 AM

---

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on August 10, 2007, 04:12:08 AM
I am not going to comment on anything except to restate to feel free to state your real honest opinion.

And I think the urge for androgynes at least to jump in and defend or debate any views should be limited. Unless doing so is intent on bringing out more information on one's view.

Non-androgyne however feel free to debate.

Thank you for posting this poll Rebis, and those that have answered it honestly and truthfully. And thanks to those with comments.

   Thank You K/K

I think, even as an androgyne, that it is easier to not accept it as a genuine identity as to accept it. I mean, look at all the mind twists we have to play, the names we have to change, the sheer number and varience of information we have to gather just to get an inkling of what we ourselves are on about...However I think there are a lot of ´normal´people who are unidentified androgynes, who never had a crisis to throw them into questioning themselves to that extent. I reckon I know I got dozen or so. And they wouldn´t accept it.

Quote from: Andra on August 10, 2007, 01:57:56 AM
Trans people are often those with the most invested in the idea of binary gender, the idea that even though your gender can end up the complete opposite of your body and chromosomes, any other mix-up is somehow completely impossible.  Most cisgendered people will be completely clueless about androgyne/intergender identities but a fair proportion will accept they exists when its explained to them.  If we explain it as another form of gender dysphoria they have no reason to think it's any less likely to be real than transsexualism.

(Yeah I know a lot of people don't believe TS exists either, but it's probably not as many as 90%)

That's a really good point Andra, I imagine the results probably wouldn't be similar to the cisgendered world due to the lack of personal investment in a binary.

Quote from: Mallard500 on August 10, 2007, 03:20:48 AM
And best of success in that, Sophia!  It's scary, and it seems as though the odds aren't great, but I wish you well in the try!   :)

*hugs*

:D

Quote from: Rebis on August 10, 2007, 08:02:32 AM
   When I first read Ell's post, I had a sense that it could be sarcastic.  However, I read it again and I realized that it was not being snarky. I think it was phrased in a way where the tone could be misinterpreted.  But I know Ell was trying to be sympathetic and so took it as that.

Yeah. It was really confusing because the post seemed such a huge switch from Ell's previous posts to Tay. So I didn't know how to respond at all.

:icon_dizzy:

Quote from: Ell on August 10, 2007, 02:43:24 PM

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 01:33:00 PM
Yeah. It was really confusing because the post seemed such a huge switch from Ell's previous posts to Tay. So I didn't know how to respond at all.

:icon_dizzy:

as the discussion between Tay and i progressed, it seemed to me that we were arriving at the truth of the situation, which i perceived as confusion. i have been deeply enthralled by confusion myself, at various times, and it seems to me that if you fight it, it will take you down, and possibly hurt you. but if you just relax and go with the feeling as a natural part of being human, it is much less painful, and, in its own way, relaxing. i do have a habit of sometimes whacking people with a wake-up stick, and it may seem abrupt and curt. but the intention is not to harm, but to wake someone up.

So a kind of not fighting the river of confusion until it washes away sort of thing?

I really just think it's a phase. A place of safety while working out Gender issues.

QuoteTrans people are often those with the most invested in the idea of binary gender, the idea that even though your gender can end up the complete opposite of your body and chromosomes, any other mix-up is somehow completely impossible.  Most cisgendered people will be completely clueless about androgyne/intergender identities but a fair proportion will accept they exists when its explained to them.  If we explain it as another form of gender dysphoria they have no reason to think it's any less likely to be real than transsexualism.

Great point Andra! I do think however that society and many cisgendered people are also invested in perpetuating the binary system and police it. Otherwise, there'd be more freedom for people, within, in between or outside the gender binary to express who they are without discrimination.

Zythyra

Quote from: Yvonne on August 10, 2007, 06:23:20 PM
I really just think it's a phase. A place of safety while working out Gender issues.

For some it is, however some of us have transitioned full time into the other gender role then realised that the other binary gender option wasn't right either.  You could say that given how much I hated being male, female was a place of safety while I figured out exactly what I am  ;)

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 09:41:10 PM
Just to pose a question to those who don't see androgyne as a valid gender identity.
No judgment, just discussion. Reasons why you don't see it as valid? Is it that you believe being born with a mixed or neither gender is impossible? Again, no judgment, honesty is what's wanted here.

honesty?, ok. :laugh:  well i'm afraid that the owner of this thread didn't request an explanation for our votes.

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:45:05 PM

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

:o

oh i have my reasons, yet i'd hate to break the site rules by saying something inappropriate ;)

Quote from: Katia on August 11, 2007, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 09:41:10 PM
Just to pose a question to those who don't see androgyne as a valid gender identity.
No judgment, just discussion. Reasons why you don't see it as valid? Is it that you believe being born with a mixed or neither gender is impossible? Again, no judgment, honesty is what's wanted here.

honesty?, ok. :laugh:  well i'm afraid that the owner of this thread didn't request an explanation for our votes.

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:45:05 PM

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

:o

oh i have my reasons, yet i'd hate to break the site rules by saying something inappropriate ;)

lol :laugh:

Quote from: Katia on August 11, 2007, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 09:41:10 PM
Just to pose a question to those who don't see androgyne as a valid gender identity.
No judgment, just discussion. Reasons why you don't see it as valid? Is it that you believe being born with a mixed or neither gender is impossible? Again, no judgment, honesty is what's wanted here.

honesty?, ok. :laugh:  well i'm afraid that the owner of this thread didn't request an explanation for our votes.

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:45:05 PM

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

:o

oh i have my reasons, yet i'd hate to break the site rules by saying something inappropriate ;)

Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

Quote from: Katia on August 11, 2007, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:45:05 PM

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

:o

oh i have my reasons, yet i'd hate to break the site rules by saying something inappropriate ;)

Awwww come on. Humor us. As long as you don't phrase in a really awful way, it shouldn't be a problem, right?

I wasn't sure what to select in the poll, so I didn't select anything... Let me try to explain. Apologizing in advance... It's hard for me to think about objectively, just because I'm so wrapped up in my own TS problems right now, it's hard to think of what it means to the other individuals, because I worry too much about how it might impact me. My apology is for approaching this in such a self-centered way, when the question isn't about me at all.

I have been accused of perpetuating the oppressive gender binary simply because I identify strongly as one gender to the exclusion of the other. Intellectually, I get what people mean when they advocate there should be no gender at all--but I don't feel it. All I can feel is that I'm a woman. I have been facing so much difficulty in winning acceptance for my transition that I feel constantly on the defensive.

If you had asked me half a year ago, I would have said unhesitatingly, Yes, I'm all for androgynes, genderqueers, anyone who helps to break down the rigid gender binary that keeps us all in prison. But now that my transition is picking up momentum, it takes so much of my attention and concern to defend who I am, I can't spare much thought for people with different problems. I don't like being so self-centered, because I idealistically believe in the value of altruism--but circumstances right now force me to focus on my own problems.

Intellectually, I readily agree that androgynes exist, your existence is perfectly valid, and you deserve to be recognized for your authentic identity same as anyone else. I cannot feel what it would be like to be androgyne. At the same time, I very much respect the need and the right to identify as androgynous. Because I'm so sick of clueless cissexual people who put down transsexual people saying "I don't know what you mean, you feel like a woman, cause I don't feel I have anything invested in my gender, I don't care about it, it's just my body" and stuff like that. The cluelessness of privilege, unable to conceive of what it's like to be deprived of that privilege. I don't want to turn around and inflict the same cluelessness on other people who have to struggle for their identity.

My former therapist tried to make me accept being "two spirit" by which I think she meant "half male." Well, screw that! Maleness is so abhorrent to me, all I can think is "get it awayyyy!" I was so depressed and suicidal by her insistence on my part-maleness, I fired her and found a therapist who supports my womanhood and my need to get free of the gloomy prison of maleness. I resent that all TS people should be forced to accept any compromise identity like "two spirit" just because some people are that way.

Julia Serano wrote about problems with the non-gendered ideal in Whipping Girl:

QuoteThis sort of thinking, when taken to the extreme, can privilege those people who are predisposed toward being bigendered and bisexual. In this scenario, someone who feels comfortable identifying outside the male/female gender binary, expressing combinations of both femininity and masculinity ... may falsely assume that their "bi" inclinations represent a natural state that is present in all other people. From this "bi-sexist" perspective, people who identify exclusively as either female or male, feminine or masculine ... are assumed to have developed such preferences as the result of being duped by binary gender norms and socialization. This view has also led to the creation of another oppositional binary of sorts, pitting those transgender people who identify outside the gender binary (and who are therefore presumed to challenge gender norms) against transsexuals (who are accused of supporting the gender status quo by transitioning to their identified sex).

Serano warns against the discrimination that may be implicit in "such arguments--that bi-gendered and genderqueer people are more 'radical' or 'queer' than transsexuals..." Her argument is balanced, because she also argues against privileging single-gender-identified people like me over the ambiguously gendered; in other words, she argues for doing away with all such notions of a queer pecking order that privileges any one tendency over the others. I strongly agree with her.

I fully accept the validity of androgyny for those who need it, I just don't want it being used against my womanhood. Apologizing again for my totally self-centered point of view.

It's okay, Hypatia,

   We have no intention of assaulting your womanhood.  We have no qualms, however, concerning assaulting your refrigerator.   ;D

   I believe that the ambiguously gendered here on this site entirely respect the condition of totality in those who are female or male.  We are only trying to understand ourselves.

   I understand how hard you are working on your transition and you have no need to apologize about being self centered.  The very nature of transitioning requires a great amount of concentration due to the necessity to keep your eye on the goal while taking each small step to get you there.  Probably like walking a tightrope across an extremely windy canyon.

   I hope you have some moments of true peace in your journey.


Rebis

Quote from: tay
Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

yea i'm incapable of phrasing a criticism politely.  sad, innit? ::)

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 06:26:50 AM

Quote from: tay
Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

yea i'm incapable of phrasing a criticism politely.  sad, innit? ::)

Knock it off, Katia, you're scaring me.  :'(

Quote from: Rebis on August 17, 2007, 06:56:51 AM

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 06:26:50 AM

Quote from: tay
Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

yea i'm incapable of phrasing a criticism politely.  sad, innit? ::)

Knock it off, Katia, you're scaring me.  :'(

my honesty scares you?  i know i'm blunt but i'm honest.  i seldom sugar coat my opinions so i'd better keep them to myself.

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 07:00:18 AM

Quote from: Rebis on August 17, 2007, 06:56:51 AM

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 06:26:50 AM

Quote from: tay
Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

yea i'm incapable of phrasing a criticism politely.  sad, innit? ::)

Knock it off, Katia, you're scaring me.  :'(

my honesty scares you?  i know i'm blunt but i'm honest.  i seldom sugar coat my opinions so i'd better keep them to myself.

No, my Dear, your avatar scares me.

what's wrong with it?  she's a woman, isn't she?  would you rather see pam anderson on my avatar?  >:D

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 07:05:16 AM
what's wrong with it?  she's a woman, isn't she?  would you rather see pam anderson on my avatar?  >:D

   I don't mind strong or mysterious women.  But, at first glance, your avatar is dark.

   I would rather see 7 of 9 before being humanized than see Pam Anderson.  I like strong woman and they don't need to be human, just not... dark.

Thanks, Rebia. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I went for
"I accept Androgyne as a gender alternative."

Because my transition has been proceeding so slowly, and because physically I wasn't the most promising material to womanize in the first place, my appearance has generally been de facto genderqueer or androgyne, even though I don't identify that way. So to just be able to live my daily life out there, I necessarily sympathized with the problems of androgynes. Now that I've begun passing, I'm more focused on my ultimate goal. But I will always support the rights of androgynes to be who they are. Even though I'm not one.

Couldn't help noticing that all of those who went against androgyny are of the same type. Wondering what that says about us as a people...

Quote from: Ell on August 18, 2007, 03:37:18 PM

Quote from: Rebis on August 17, 2007, 07:12:59 AM

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 07:05:16 AM
what's wrong with it?  she's a woman, isn't she?  would you rather see pam anderson on my avatar?  >:D

I don't mind strong or mysterious women.  But, at first glance, your avatar is dark.

  I would rather see 7 of 9 before being humanized than see Pam Anderson. I like strong woman and they don't need to be human, just not... dark.

R, i've been scared by some of Katia's avatars, too. but i like this one. it reminds me of one of the underworld characters from the Throne of Bhaal.

-ell

It's not Katia's avatars you should fear, young one, it's Katia herself that you should fear.  >:D

katia is a goff, and therefore, in my good books :D
R :police:

Quote from: Ell on August 19, 2007, 07:06:04 PMthere is physical IS, certainly. is it unreasonable to suggest that IS may also exist on a purely psychological basis?

Certainly. That seems like simple common sense.
That's my reason for accepting androgyny's validity (in other individuals, not myself, I'm very much a woman).

I accept androgyny because I have a pretty good background in biology and by consequence a mediocre background in neurology and through personal interest an adequate background in psychology.

Its not just the knowledge of IS people for me, but the fact that more and more neurologists are realizing that neurological disorders and abnormal functionality is not black and white. Disorders come in varying degrees with varying symptoms.

OCD can range from extreme germaphobia to simple compulsions to touch a doorknob before leaving the house.

Attention Deficit Disorder can involve hyperfocusing (the compulsion to focus so totally on something that nothing else is registered in one's mind) defocusing (a loss of any particular focus and a spreading of mental resources so thin one appears scattered) or blendings of both.

Its unsurprising to me that GID would have varying degrees of symptoms (after all some people are crossdressers and others need to transition to avoid suicide). The fact that the gender binary is a human construct for the most part (gender expression and gender roles are entirely made by cultural and social ties and make up the majority of our binary, whereas gender identity and sex are the only truly biological aspects and make up very little in terms of real differences) makes me disinclined to believe that the human mind is constrained by it.

And quite seriously, the instincts that determine body structure do not only work on our sex based features. BIID, for instance, is a disorder that makes one feel that their body should be missing one (or more depending on the symptoms) limbs. Its oftentimes one leg (left maybe can't remember) and just below the knee. However their are very likely to be variations on that.

Its very likely, in my slightly educated opinion, that BIID, GID, and a few other disorders all arise from similar parts of the brain and similar instincts to keep our bodies intact and recognize injury (change of state from natural state, based off visual and tactile clues).

Why wouldn't there be a variation of body instincts that stated that someone should have a mix of male and female characteristics or no defining sex characteristics at all? Its not like the brain is going to follow cultural views or physicality exactly, after all if it did, mtfs and ftms wouldn't exist.

I guess I just see it as horribly unrealistic to not accept androgynes, especially if one has learned a bit of bio and such. And for transsexuals especially, our attitude of dismissal and lack of acceptance is really very ironic.

After all if someone called mtf and ftm a cop out (Real quote: "You just don't like the gender roles and are escaping your body form. You can take any role you want, why would you want to change your body? Its such a cop out"), or claimed we were just in a phase (Real Quote: "You'll get over this when you figure out that gender roles don't matter and you can wear bras and stuff whenever you want. Trust me its just a phase. Don't do something irreversible.") we'd react really badly wouldn't we?

Hell I've had a few people make the claim that transsexuality is entirely gender expression, and I've seen us react like rabid weasels to that. Yet we find ourselves able to claim that androgynes are just a facet of gender expression? How does that explain the feelings of pain they have about their bodies that match exactly our feelings of pain? The parts that cause the hurt and the solution to that hurt may be different, but the basic system is still the same.

I guess maybe you need to be around androgynes to truly get it. Which is funny because cisgendered people often don't get mtf and ftm until they know someone with it. Shocking bunch of parallels isn't it?

Is it so hard to put ourselves in the shoes of the androgynes and realize how much we hurt them with these things we say? Is it so hard to see the irony of our views when we're going through the exact same thing, just with different solutions and slightly different variations?

The worst part is, Androgyne isn't a "safe alternative" to work out gender issues. Its in many ways even worse then anything we can go through.

Admittedly the feelings of dysphoria may be slightly less for many, based on the fact that bigendered people are happy at times with their bodies (or happy with some of the characteristics), female nuetrois can easily pretend that they lack genitals, and male nuetrois have a strong lack of sexual characteristics everywhere but the genitals (and can get hair removal without need of therapist and such).

However, the sad fact is, for the mass majority of androgynes there is no viable methodology for eliminating their dysphoria. We have the hope of a solution to cling to. The androgynes have nothing. They also receive even less social acceptance then we do as the gender binary is strongly enforced in society. So social pressures we claim to be struck with are nothing compared to the vicious treatment androgynes receive (especially the nuetrois, as some of the bigendered can use crossdressing to reduce the pain)

They have it far worse off then we do, and pretending otherwise is simply engaging in foolish pissing contests for the emo prize.

Nuetrois is an unfamiliar term to me. All I know is, in French it means 'nude three'.

I actually misspelled it.... (http://neutrois.0catch.com/defin.htm)

:icon_redface:

have a look at the androgyne GID thread, brings up some interesting inconsistencies.

Speaking as an androgyne I never even knew about the terms "Androgny" until a few months ago. I once thought I was the opposite sex in some way or another but I definately wasn;t fully TS(MTF) so being an androgyn proviodes me a common ground of labeling myself both male and female which I think I am. I think I communciate like female but i am a male externally(that explains my new avator.) I have thought about HRT(I guess being a pre-op TS)but its not for me because I kinda like who I am although its hard to live that way. I don;t want to change the way I think completely although I have heavily thought about FFS and I have thought about a voice change to along with the FFS. I'm going to see where the path leads me.....

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 21, 2007, 06:46:41 AM
have a look at the androgyne GID thread, brings up some interesting inconsistencies.

Well there's interesting inconsistencies in GID level and symptoms for mtf and ftm transsexuals (and past a certain threshold you hit mtf ftm crossdressers and such).

I'd imagine that it would be intriguing from an outsider's viewpoint, but I doubt it would lead to any conclusive evidence of nonexistence of androgynes, or a lesser degree of existence.

*shrug*

Quote from: Sophia on August 23, 2007, 12:22:24 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 21, 2007, 06:46:41 AM
have a look at the androgyne GID thread, brings up some interesting inconsistencies.

Well there's interesting inconsistencies in GID level and symptoms for mtf and ftm transsexuals (and past a certain threshold you hit mtf ftm crossdressers and such).

I'd imagine that it would be intriguing from an outsider's viewpoint, but I doubt it would lead to any conclusive evidence of nonexistence of androgynes, or a lesser degree of existence.

*shrug*

Probably not, wouldn't want it to be, but it may add more shape to discussions.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 23, 2007, 02:03:03 PM

Quote from: Sophia on August 23, 2007, 12:22:24 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 21, 2007, 06:46:41 AM
have a look at the androgyne GID thread, brings up some interesting inconsistencies.

Well there's interesting inconsistencies in GID level and symptoms for mtf and ftm transsexuals (and past a certain threshold you hit mtf ftm crossdressers and such).

I'd imagine that it would be intriguing from an outsider's viewpoint, but I doubt it would lead to any conclusive evidence of nonexistence of androgynes, or a lesser degree of existence.

*shrug*

Probably not, wouldn't want it to be, but it may add more shape to discussions.

I'll give it a look. Maybe we can make add an octagon to the discussion

[/bad puns]

:D

Many of those options might be truth. My vote was based on my experience  of the people that makes all to be an androgyne.

Ooooh! I missed this one! Thanks for digging it out goingdown!

I voted that it's a valid gender alternative. Who am I to say otherwise?

~Simone.

yeah. To ME <--- (note that I speak for myself here for once  ;) ) it's fluid. Sometimes, it directs me and other times, I'm the driver. Mostly, though, I'm along for the ride.

It's become a good ride because of my friends here.   :)

Hmm very interesting read. First of I would like to say that I hold no predjudice views towards any part of the LBGT community and I respect everyones right to an opinion so long as they do not try to impose that opinion on me forceibly. I do not personaly know any people who indentify as androgyne. Hell I only know two other ts people in real life and one of them is still questioning. Scientificaly since nothing is truly black and white and all things tend to come in degrees and variables I definatly lean towards androgyne being a valid gender alternative. However I did vote don't understand it or know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other. My reasoning for this is I hate to give any strong stance on a subject that I have not researched and that I lack suffiecnt data in. So while I do lean toward complete aceptance I will not make a strong stance until I learn more on the issue.

One other thing I would like to bring up though is I do think that comparing some TS and white supremacist was a tad excesive. While there may be some similarity of viewpoint as far as I know ive never heard of a case of a person who identifies as TS physicaly hurt or attempt to make life living hell to a person that identifies as Androgyne. However I have heard many acounts of white supremacist comminting acts of inhumane atrocity toward all different members of the LBGT community and our supporters. This poll was supposed to be an unbiased research experiment and all every participant has the right to an opinion so long as it that opinion isn't being forced on another individual in any way. Yes in the exterme sense this does mean that I rescpect the right of a person to have their opinion even when I think it's completely stupid. This includes the most hateful anti LBGT person who thinks we are pure evil and sacrifice babies to the devil in our heathen rituals so long as that opinion stays just an opinion and is not forced on me.

I voted I somewhat believe it's a valid gender identity, but don't know for sure.  I don't know enough about androgynes.  Just as Bios don't know enough about Trans people.  But I am more than willing to learn.  After all you are still are brothers and sisters, if one can say that.

Janet

Quote from: Fox on December 09, 2008, 11:49:16 PMI definatly lean towards androd being a valid gender alternative. However I did vote don't understand it or know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other.

It should be straightforward enough to tell-- do you have electronic circuits instead of a nervous system? You're an android. If your body is entirely organic, you're not. If you have a bionic combination of both, I think the term is "cyborg."

Cute, Hypatia
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.btinternet.com%2F%7Ereg.joy%2Fimages%2FRobots%2Fcylon1.jpg&hash=cb8211aa31a9eceff2ebbfc1ef804963b76d095c)

"By your command"

My statement would be something like ''legimitive/valid form of gender expression''.

Some backround
Genetically there are many genders. However primary gender stairts as genitals could be divided to two male and female. The classification shoud be done by the status of external genitals. And the word identity is a very strong. So I see androgynes more as from of gender expression that is totally ok.
We come this to question about intersexed people. The treatment of those people is very controversal issue. I have my own liberal but not pro-genderdiversity views that I am not going to state here. Many ''untreated'' intersexed people became very unhappy later in their lifes. So I favor ''least harm for the most''-model at this issue.

Do I believe androgynes are weird or crazy? No.

Do I believe that some people who happen to be androgyne may be weird or crazy? Perhaps, but no moreso than some people who identify as male or female.

I believe angrogyne identification is as equally valid as male or female identification. No more, no less. If it's who you are then it's who you are. That's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: Fox on December 09, 2008, 11:49:16 PM
I only know two other ts people in real life and one of them is still questioning.

That person who is questioning may wind up sifted to the bottom of the bowl like the rest of us Non binaries.

Sure, like an upside down cake, we're the first thrown into the bowl, but when it's dropped from the pan, that's us at the top, Babies.   ;)

I'm assuming that upside down cakes are actually upside down.

Quote from: Leiandra on December 10, 2008, 06:10:49 AM
Do I believe androgynes are weird or crazy? No.

I take umbrage at this statement.   :P



I forgot to say that all opinions are okay

even if there is a rhyme within their reason

I accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.

Honestly, I don't see why I should disbelieve someone's sense of identity. You are who you are IMO, and no one knows that better than yourself.
That some people embrace the Androgyne identity out of fear of going forward and an impossibility of going backwards there's no doubt, but the problem is fear and rejection, not the validity of Androgynes themselves.

That some people embrace the ________ identity out of fear of going forward and an impossibility of going backwards

Couldn't you say that, fill in the blank, with lots of words, TS included?

Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2008, 12:24:41 PM
That some people embrace the ________ identity out of fear of going forward and an impossibility of going backwards

Couldn't you say that, fill in the blank, with lots of words, TS included?

Uh, I guess. "Barfly" maybe? We're talking about androgynes though.
I don't think it applies to TS as TS is something that requires a much greater sacrifice and a more sustained commitment.

Disclaimer: This applies to people who identify as being Androgyne for fear of the hardships or sacrifices of a full transition.

I think that many European MTF's have different view on this issue. Perhaps we have more ''androgynes'' here. I really do not know.

But androgyne leaning feminists have not been friends of MTF-women.

Interesting reading.

I don't know if there are any people that identify as androgyne for fear of transitioning. I don't doubt that some people are undecided about their gender and find androgyne a convenient rest stop. I have used the term MTF in a similar way - I found it much easier to say I was a transexual than to recognise that I actually was an androgyne. I was not a man and so it was very easy to assume I was a woman. I should add that we also transition, e.g. people like andra who are on hormone therapy and have surgery to correct their 'birth defect'.

I find it interesting that there is a suggestion that it is an easy path. I suppose our jokeing around masks a lot of pain. Where I am concerned I suffer quite badly, to the point where I feel like I am dieing - both from social preasure and internal body dysphoria.

Perhaps Androgyne is a convenient label but it is not something that is particularly easy to be if you are one. There are times when I envy the transexuals for their clear destination. You have the rules to follow, a defined path, a place to potentially fit into. That would be good to have.

Androgyne as an expresion could mean many things. If you know what that is please let me know because myself as an Androgyne have no idea how to express myself recognisably as one.

I would really like to thank those that see the truth in the matter - that identity is a personal thing and as such is as valid as anything.

My phase has lasted 32 years. When will it end?  ;)

Well Jesus Hell, I didn't even really know about androgynes until a couple of days ago when I joined this site.
Seems like a perfectly valid state of affairs to me.
Hell, by comparison, I'm the crazy one - they don't want to have their genitals cut up and stuffed inside them, amirite?

Quote from: Vexing on December 10, 2008, 09:36:29 PMHell, by comparison, I'm the crazy one - they don't want to have their genitals cut up and stuffed inside them, amirite?

ROTFL

I know two people who have transitioned to a neutrois/intermediate sex. Some androgynes want to transition, it's just that it's a lot harder to find a willing set of mental/medical professionals who recognise it and are willing to help.

~Simone.

For transmen and transwomen it is usually difficult to get medical help. In case someone would like to transition  physically somewhere between sexes it is nearly impossible. I do not know enough about that kind of people to think anything.

However those kind of operations may at end risk rights of the ''normal transsexuals''.
I can write more to Just for Us in case somebody is interested.

Quote from: goingdown on December 11, 2008, 07:53:59 AMHowever those kind of operations may at end risk rights of the ''normal transsexuals''.

I can't see how androgynes being recognised and provided a path to transition would impact on us. Transsexed people have an established history in the medical field, and with all the research that has been coming out about us over the last few years, I cannot see how anybody can rationally argue anymore that we don't have a legitimate natural variation/condition/whetever.

~Simone.

 I cannot see how anybody can rationally argue anymore that we don't have a legitimate natural variation/condition/whetever.

~Simone.
[/quote]

There are lot of people arguing that. For example Dr. Zucker, chair of the DSM-V  committee that writes the diagnoses of the ''gender indentity disorders''.

Quote from: goingdown on December 11, 2008, 11:12:35 AMThere are lot of people arguing that. For example Dr. Zucker, chair of the DSM-V  committee that writes the diagnoses of the ''gender indentity disorders''.

I agree that there are a lot of people still arguing that we're sick/twisted/sinful/mentally ill/etc. but the weight of evidence undermines their arguments by the day. Just because somebody puts Dr. ahead of his or her name does not mean that they don't have their own personal biasses, or that they stay up to date on all the latest research. I mean, everybody's favourite gender therapists are Blanchard and Bailey, after all. ;)

~Simone.

or that they stay up to date on all the latest research

Or not, the latest research might well be a big steaming crock if you know what I mean.

Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2008, 11:27:47 AM
Or not, the latest research might well be a big steaming crock if you know what I mean.

Yeah true. But gene sequences and autopsied brains tend to be a bit tough to argue with. ;)

~Simone.

Quote from: Vexing on December 10, 2008, 09:36:29 PM
Well Jesus Hell, I didn't even really know about androgynes until a couple of days ago when I joined this site.
Seems like a perfectly valid state of affairs to me.
Hell, by comparison, I'm the crazy one - they don't want to have their genitals cut up and stuffed inside them, amirite?

Some do.  But then, some of those who do, don't have the drive that demands it be done.

Quote from: Vexing on December 10, 2008, 09:36:29 PM
Well Jesus Hell, I didn't even really know about androgynes until a couple of days ago when I joined this site.
Seems like a perfectly valid state of affairs to me.
Hell, by comparison, I'm the crazy one - they don't want to have their genitals cut up and stuffed inside them, amirite?

We seem to like ours without stuffing  ;). Though there is a big range in the grey. I would love to drive my own Vulva (I can feel the phantom their now), at the same time I don't mind tooling around this world with my own Pagero. Probably a good assumption that more of us don't have as much drive to change our ride, though some of us do.

Hey, just got to 333 posts. That's like the number of the semi-beast is it not!

Half-a-Beast, like Eric, the Half Bee.

On another note, I find the whole Androgyne paradigm to be utterly fascinating and I'm very jealous of you all. Rest assured that if I had any inclinations down that path, I'd join you.
Alas, I'm just a vanilla MTF girly girl.  :(

Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2008, 01:59:27 PM
Half-a-Beast, like Eric, the Half Bee.

I love you carnally tekla...semi carnally :D

It is a rather loose paradigm me thinks. Though I guess it is quite a departure from the accepted binary one.

I like vanilla MTF's. I think FtM's would be chocolate and Andro's are orange and full of jubes, or an empty cone (they would be the low calorie variety of androgyne).

I don't know that its loose.  Its just very undefined, as most things are on the frontier.  As Jim Morrison said "Out here on the perimeter there are no stars.  We are stoned.  Immaculate."  Its just sort of couture sans frontieres

After considering the issue I change my statement to that Androgyne is a valid form of gender alternative.

Chalk up another one for our crowd.


Now we need to convince another 4 billion people.

The slogan is:

To choose, is to lose.


How 'bout that one?

I guess that's okay.  But don't you feel it might be dangerous to tell billions of people they are losers?

Quote from: tekla on December 14, 2008, 10:18:13 PM
The slogan is:

To choose, is to lose.


How 'bout that one?

Are you implying that my gender is a choice? >:(

Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2008, 03:28:22 PM
Are you implying that my gender is a choice? >:(

I definitly think this is what they are implying  ::)

Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2008, 03:28:22 PM

Quote from: tekla on December 14, 2008, 10:18:13 PM
The slogan is:

To choose, is to lose.


How 'bout that one?

Are you implying that my gender is a choice? >:(

I'm just going to come out and say it.  From our androgyne perspective it is sometimes possible to choose.

People are always telling us that gender is not a choice, but when you float around in the gender pool (ick!) the way we androgynes do, whether it's a choice or not borders on irrelevance.

in my view.


I am in no way inferring that gender is a choice for you, Hypatia.   :)

Interesting comment about it sometimes being possible to choose. Personally I don't feel I have any choice. But perhaps it is possible to take a side and live mostly on that side or just live on the side you have been asigned. I do know some androgynes are comfortable enough in their assigned gender roles and expression that it is not worth the effort and hastle of going against the grain of society. Unfortunately I don't seem to be one of those, the need is too strong.

For me the the slogan says - It is not good for an androgyne being required to choose a side. I would agree with that. Perhaps deeper than this is choosing a side is denying a big part of yourself.

That's what I thought too.

Perhaps implicit in the slogan is that there is no choice - thinking you can make a choice will only hurt you (or at least Rebis will  ;)).

What a kick arse slogan!

OK, I get it. The slogan is only referring to you guys. Thanks for clarifying. As stated above, I sometimes have a hard time seeing gender objectively because my own gender issues have consumed so much of my attention and energy. This shows the value of a forum like this, where all different sorts can compare notes and learn to see beyond their own individual perspectives.

we should rename ourselves (androgynes) The Rolling Thunder Gender

Despite all the stuff, even the TS stuff, with its SOC, WARPH stuff - and that's a lot of stuff there.  The simple truth is...

We're just all making it up as we go.

And if we're making it up, defining it as we go, if we're exploring, growing, moving, shifting then its never going to stay the same. The constants are vanishing, the frontier, the wilderness, the starless and bible black perimeter, the abyss are all growing and waiting to be found, to be explored, to be named and defined.  Andryogen is just that far edge, the people who are wandering into terra incognigta, who are stepping into the void and asking, 'humm, wonder what's in here?"

And its OK to do that, because we're just making it up as we go, after all. 

Though I do get for some people how life or death serious it all is, how expensive it all is, how painful, how difficult, how labor intensive it all is, for others here, it is a place to explore - and everyone begins in the beginning by exploring gender in some way - and for others its a nice place, or a fun place, or both, and we like to play here.

For us gender is fluid, shiftable, changeable.  Gender is not as much a construct as it is a construction.  We each are able to design our own blueprints for that, or we can accept the standard levit town model that society gives us.  But as long as We are building it, then we can build it however we like.  For some its a simple shift, for others perhaps the Winchester Mystery House, a never ending process.  Still, even if it is that.  It's still a way cool house.

And even if we are at play here, I can assure you that we only got to the play level after walking a long way up that same hill, and we, in our play, are just as serious as anyone else.  It's a hard job having fun, which is why most people are so frickin unhappy don't 'cha know. 

And for those who find a space to explore, how magical is that?  That this crack is opening, and there's a lot going on inside there than the old "You're A or B, and must be one or the other and the differences are thus:...."  And exploring is very serious, and often deadly work, so I don't discount that either. 

And in it being fluid, so are we.  Things are not the same when you 50 or 15 as turns out (at least you better hope it turns out that way).  I know where I am now, and have some idea of where I've been - and that give shape and contour to it all, but the meaning of it is still up to me.

Hmmmm, I see this thread has come back while I was away.

Re, choice. The way I see it, I didn't choose to be who I am, but I do have a choice to either accept or deny who I am. I accept this strange gift, and so the journey is to figure out how to live that honestly, and also stay alive to tell the tale. Some androgynes seem OK with living as birth gender, I've done that for quite a while, and it doesn't work for me.

Z

for those who are still undecided, or who have decided that nonbinaries need more therapy, I direct you to this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster)

It describes me better than I have yet to do myself.

Quote from: Rebis on January 01, 2009, 06:22:52 PM
for those who are still undecided, or who have decided that nonbinaries need more therapy, I direct you to this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster)

It describes me better than I have yet to do myself.

oh, jeez. i like that.

I know. It rocks.