Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have been crying on the shoulder of a friend recently, a very new friend who understands and is/has gone through the same things I am. My friend suggested I post my confusion regarding my faith here, so here goes...I am a Bible Christian as I like to call myself, I left the church about 8 years ago, I saw the church moving away from the Bible and I didn't agree so I stuck with the Bible. My faith is very strong, I relate my life to the teachings of the Bible both old and new testaments. I believe and accept the Word in its entirety, from cover to cover even the parts that condemn me. The issues I am having are me being trans M2F, I am in direct conflict with The Word of God! I don't want to be in conflict with The Word, I want to be in God's Grace and be loved by God. My major issue or battle is I cannot accept or approve of me being like this.

I cross dress...
In Deuteronomy 22:5 (KJV) it states "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."     

I desire to be with men...
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I imagine my self as a woman...
James 1:24 (KJV)  "For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was."

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.   

Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Who's sin am I paying for?
Exodus 20:5--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

This is only the beginning, how do I come to terms with this? Every day of my life I pray for forgiveness, I am on the verge of another breakdown...

This might be a little simpler if you remember that you are a woman, plain and simple. We come in all shapes and sizes hun but we are women!

I keep trying to reason this out, I know we were all born under the original sin and subject to the things of this world. I also know this is not my choice to be like this, I did not have a say in accepting it. I also keep telling myself God forgives everything for those who love Him. I have asked and prayed for some pretty big favors over the years and they have been granted. I prayed for understanding and an answer as to why I am like this, I also asked to be female. I believe God has shown me this website to help me understand, I also believe He has led me to therapy to find the answers that I asked for. But still I worry and stress...it don't make sense, I should be so happy that He has heard my prayers and answered letting me start to find the answers...I am confused...very confused...

Another thing that may be worth remembering is that ultimately the bible was written by the hand of man.

Your faith is your own, develop your own relationship with god and let the formalised written stuff look after itself.

xx

This is the way I understand it- the Old Testament is no longer followed because it is no longer in effect. The Old Testament was fulfilled with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do you eat pork or shellfish?  Wear blended fabrics?  Work on the sabbath?  These are all forbidden and abominations according to the OT.

Did Jesus ever say anything about transgender people?

Some of us were born with intersex conditions, and having a female brain and a male body qualifies as one in my opinion. 

I'm pretty sure you're good to go here.

I will have to take a step back here, I don't know enough about the OT or the NT to give you an informed opinion.

Plenty of humans on this green earth of ours who will love you and accept you though!

The bible says god created us all, god is infallible so he made you the way you are and loves and accepts you as you are, he can't make mistakes. SO if you are Transgendered then that was his intention.

xx

First sweetie I study as well and attended regularly before the hypocrites of love and compassion threw me out for being trans. Remember the Old Testament Law was given to the Jewish believers. In the new Testament Jesus said all we had to do was profess a belief in God and state it and believe it and we would be in the heaven of God. The Old Testament laws were repealed when he said that. If you believe in a triune G-D (father, son, holy spirit) like I do why would it be a stretch for G-D to possess the attributes of male and female? I mean if he can be man and G-D on earth it is not a stretch that both genders would be contained within G-D. A lot of people ask me what they think G-D would say about my transition. I tell them simply I feel like this has been laid out for me long ago. Looking back the pain, anguish and my career helped to prepare me for this journey and help others just like us. I seriously do not think if G-D hated those who transition he would provide us with medical providers, medications and incredible surgeries to assist us. Surely harm would befell them all. As for sin's of the previous generation, no. He would not make us pay the sin for actions of others, Only he was able to that for us sinners.  :)

You need not worry, there is so much good info out there about trans people in the bible..

http://www.chicagonow.com/trans-girl-cross/2012/07/the-bible-being-transgender-and-me/

http://www.transchristians.org/people/trans-saints

Today's gospel and homily in my church were actually quite relevant to this. It was about God's promise for all of his children, not just the most "deserving."

The way I see it, Jesus surrounded himself with sinners. These are really the foundation of the church. God is perfect. We are not. God also welcomes all of his children as long as they accept his Son, Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. It doesn't matter if you're the most pious person in the world. God loves you.

Wow what great answers! I needed so much to hear this so much. Thank you for the wonderful replies, I can feel the love here. I know the problem lies with me and not with God. I never thought about God also having female tributes, he did make them male and female in His image, I always applied that to humans having a soul. I know there is nothing I can do about who I am, I have been trying for decades not to be me, so far it hasn't worked. All I could do was hide myself and feel shameful and guilty. I can't fight this fight anymore, the perfect storm had developed in my life with multiple issues all closing in at one time. The trick will be to hold onto my sanity while trying to get through all these issues. I prayed for help and answers, He led me to therapy, I started last week, I asked The Lord to search my heart and soul and to finally after all these years let me be who I am, let me be your daughter. He led me to HRT, tomorrow I go for the blood work, I start HRT in November. I made an off the cuff remark to God one day in the shower, " I wish I had a better job" the following week I was offered one of the highest paying hourly positions from my employer. I know without a doubt He hears my prayers, I know His child has major issues to deal with. Thank you my friends ((hugs))...I wish we all lived next to each other...sigh...

To make a long story short, Deuteronomy 22:5 is almost certainly referring to women pretending to be men so they can go to war while their husbands pretend to be women in order to avoid it. Many people, myself included, believe Leviticus 20:13 can be explained and does not apply to modern gay couples, but if it concerns you, you are not a man. 1 Samuel 16:7 - "For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."

I left the church and do not associate with any Christian group, yet I still (try to) adhere to the most important, Luke 10:25-37, referencing the Torah's similar commands.  Christianity is more about transformation and doing than mere believing. With the fear of G-d be kind to others and simply repeat until mastery is learned. At that point you just might end up like Elijah, walking into heaven.

Thanks everyone for the input and advice, I really need to hear all this. I like this conversation and these answers. I am certainly not an expert on the Bible. I do need to come to terms and find a place where I can stop beating myself up and maybe even find peace with myself until I am called home. I don't want to offend God. I need to try to understand.

(((HUGS))) :-*
Frankie

Not to throw a total bomb into things, but Original Sin, is not something the Bible teaches, it was a doctrine formulated by the Church six hundred years after Christ's death and about 200 or so after the Canon of the Biblical writings had been accepted, and it was heavily fought by the various segments of the church at the time, but for some "worldly" reasons became part of tradition against the good thoughts of some Church Fathers.  It's contrary belief was a doctrine of Original Love.   

The passages that are most often thrown our way, refer to practices of religious beliefs that existed in the non-Hebrew beliefs that were around them.  The passages also refer ONLY to the Tribe Of Levi whose members were the Priests and other Temple leaders. Human, especially infant sacrifice was practiced in the cultures around the Hebrews in honor of war deities.  Women were warriors in those eyes, and thus would wear some form of it in religious ceremonies.  Paul actually made up two words in Greek  (no other Greek writings known to anyone contain those words!!) to describe a religious connection between very young males and much older males that some of his converts were looking to, and taking part in.  It was a situation that was basically  religion condoned child molestation by the older people that was carried on under the heading of religious worship.  Not too pretty, and gives us a distorted view of what Paul was really talking about. Stuff your Sunday School teacher did not cover.

There is more to understanding the Bible than just its words on a page.  In my life, God has been more than accepting of my Trans* nature (HE was the one that put it there) and has guided me through my daily meditations that contain more than the Bible's writings, they contain awe at the beauty of creation in all of its reaches, including the genetic and physiological origins of our GD which are microscopic and for now uncertain in many ways,  and sorrow at the acts we do against our fellow men in the name of religion, especially when they and we reject the true scope and loving power of ALL creation as we attempt to limit a concept of a Deity to human narrowness and weakness. 

This is how I see my "trans" (hate this term because it always comes with derogatory connotations in society).

1. Gender dysphoria is a result of sin. It is not sin in itself, but rather a result of it. Just like people are born disabled without an arm, we are born disabled without a natal vulva but instead a P.
2. By God's grace, and his allowance (medical intervention), we are able to "fix" this condition" to the extent of having surgery. Just like disabled people need prosthetic limbs or arms to function in live, God (a miracle worker) is able to allow medical intervention to develop to this level of expertise to create in us a "neovagina"

If you take these two points in consideration, and remember that being a Christian (or someone who has faith in God) is more about loving others and forgiving others than whether or not you're masquerading as a female in your head (because you shouldn't... people with gender dysphoria are simply female and they are not 'trying to dress up').

God cares more about how you treat your neighbours and love others, as well as having faith in Him than anything.

here is another view
god created the spirit, that is what lives on in heaven and on earth. the spirit has no sex, if we are created in the image of the lord then why is there no female god in the written verses, because he does not see us in our physical form he sees us in our spiritual form and in our actions and lives. for me living as a male was certainly without a relationship with crist and now that I am free to express and live as me I am able to walk with him and live as he would live. it has taken a good bit of explaining my position to the church leaders but am finding some who are accepting of my position and have been blessed with a wonderful relationship with the church and crist which I was never allowed before

something to think about anyway

xo Jerri

Quote from: Jerri on October 21, 2014, 08:19:10 AM
here is another view
god created the spirit, that is what lives on in heaven and on earth. the spirit has no sex, if we are created in the image of the lord then why is there no female god in the written verses, because he does not see us in our physical form he sees us in our spiritual form and in our actions and lives. for me living as a male was certainly without a relationship with crist and now that I am free to express and live as me I am able to walk with him and live as he would live. it has taken a good bit of explaining my position to the church leaders but am finding some who are accepting of my position and have been blessed with a wonderful relationship with the church and crist which I was never allowed before

something to think about anyway

xo Jerri

Jerri, this has been my thinking as well.  The book of Genesis, the garden of eden, shows us the separation of the way God's Plan is for us, without sin, vs mankind going alone without God, in sin.

Ever since that fateful moment of disobedience, mankind is subject to so much crap via dysfunction and sin.  God's Plan was for us to live with him, in his spirit, not bound by time or space.  When Adam & Eve sinned, suddenly the spirit realm was gone and they found themselves living only in the third dimension, void of the 4th and 5th dimensions--outside of time and outside of God's kingdom.

So when people say "THIS ISN'T GOD'S PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE!"  I say, "you're right!" then tell them this story.  Then tell them how God is using me and will use me in the trans community.  Then I ask them "How are YOU ministering to the trans community?  Where is your outreach program to the transgendered people in this town?"

So yeah, God has a plan for me, it's in motion.  It's not one I would have ever chosen, but it's the path I'm on now, finally. 

I only go by what the son of god, the light of the word tells me to do and that is to love

Hi Frankie! 

First off, let me commend you on interpreting your identity through the lens of the Bible instead of the other way around.  I know that can be extremely hard to do. 

My initial reconciliation between my faith and my trans status happened when I talked to God.  I asked him for signs (bad idea) to see if this path for me or not.  Ultimately, I felt Him say "Whether you transition or not, I will still love you."  That was the confirmation I needed.  Also, another big factor was realizing that this was not an issue of salvation.  There are plenty of scriptures that tell me all I need to do to get to heaven is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and I will be saved.  If I tried to "repent" in being transgender in order to go to heaven, then that will be done of my righteousness, which will be as a filthy rag unto Him (Isaiah 64.6).

Before I came out to myself, it was extremely difficult to relate to the Bible as being a "woman".  I felt that it probably even pushed me away from God.  It felt very unnatural to me trying to conform to that.  However, after I got saved, I got my spirituality on the right back, I started to look to the Bible on a guide for Biblical manhood and as I Christian, I seek to follow that and it felt more "natural to me", even the parts where I feel like my personality doesn't fit some of the trains where the Bible talks about manhood, but I accept it all and reject none, and strive to be a better man in those areas.
At the end of the day, you are a woman, and as a Christian woman in particular, you should seek Biblical womanhood and strive to live as such to the best of your abilities.

Ask yourself this: Will you be more fruitful as a Christian if you live as a woman or if you live out your life as a man?  Do you feel closer to God as a woman, or as a man?

There is no right or wrong answer.  The important thing is to build the kingdom of God.  For me personally, I feel closer to God as a man.  I feel I can get the work of the Lord done better as such.

I will be praying for you.

Quote from: Alice Rogers on September 21, 2014, 04:58:03 PM
This might be a little simpler if you remember that you are a woman, plain and simple. We come in all shapes and sizes hun but we are women!

Alice is so right...

Think about it: what makes you who your are... what is between your legs, or what is between your ears?

Hi people,

Just wanted to say that your answers were what I was looking for too. I had been tortured by the church and family members in the church. Even told that people like me were not wanted in the church.

I am so thankful to have found you all. :) :)

You ALL are a blessing from the Lord!! Your answers give me hope. My personal struggle was making my faith weaker and weaker, day by day. I've struggled with this since I was 15. I'm 30 now.

Thank you so much for your enlightening words.   :D  :)

Speaking as one who is going back down this path, I felt I had to throw my 2 cents in. In my research, experience, and debates with other Christians, I have not found one verse in the bible thus far that holds any water. So as far as the verses already quoted, I will respond in kind.

I cross dress...
In Deuteronomy 22:5 (KJV) it states "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

Okay lets not even take into consideration the fact it was written for a different people, different time, and different culture. The only thing this tells me is that I am currently IN sin when my employer makes me dress as a man. Because I am in fact a woman. So I'm not worried about I'll go to hell because I put on a dress.

I imagine my self as a woman...
James 1:24 (KJV)  "For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was."

This is almost laughable as when you look at the full context of this passage, it is about someone who looks into a mirror and immediately forgets what he looks like as soon as he divirts his gaze. This is about forgetting that you are a child of god.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.   

Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Yes he did... in the beginning. In the beginning, I started out with blue and yellow paint. So of course I would never have green paint?

Who's sin am I paying for?
Exodus 20:5--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Not sure how this applies.

I desire to be with men...
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Being trans has nothing to do your attraction.

Romans 4:

There is a few things said in Romans 4.

With that being said I will close with a verse of my own.

1Sam 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Why is everything to do with Christianity is a matter of the heart; except this one thing?

Quote from: Gadgett on December 19, 2014, 08:18:54 AM
Why is everything to do with Christianity is a matter of the heart; except this one thing?

Actually conservative Christians seem to only care about controlling who has sex with whom from my perspective.

Quote from: Gadgett on December 19, 2014, 08:18:54 AM


I cross dress...
In Deuteronomy 22:5 (KJV) it states "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

Okay lets not even take into consideration the fact it was written for a different people, different time, and different culture. The only thing this tells me is that I am currently IN sin when my employer makes me dress as a man. Because I am in fact a woman. So I'm not worried about I'll go to hell because I put on a dress.

I wrote extensively about Deuteronomy 22:5 here:
Poisonous Attitudes and Platitudes of stoic Christianity
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,177398.0.html

I plan on writing about Romans 1 as well. 

I'm a Christian but I much prefer to label myself as a Jesus Follower so people see there is a clear line of demarcation between standard-issue Christianity and actually believing and following Jesus.

God loves all of His children, please remember that. one "sin" is not greater than the other. you could compare being trans to a divorce, a tattoo, adultery, or even cutting your hair/having it longer. i truly respect your strong faith, but please please keep in mind that the Bible is VERY old. some things could've been lost within the translations.

I have a passion for Theology as well.

I was baptised Catholic at Easter Vigil mass, 2014. I had long been feeling God's presence.

---

Why did I approach the Church? Well ... it was because I was alone. Family have disowned me since I came out. But that's their battle, not something for me to fix. I was at church almost daily, praying for some kind of guidance.

The day of my baptism, I felt terrible, because I was still living a double life. Me being trans was a big secret back then. So, I made a phone call first thing, and told them everything.

They did not even blink. I was welcomed and baptised that night. By the RCC, of all places.

I think the Church is finally beginning to grow again, despite ongoing efforts from within to keep it rigid.

---

Certainly, there are passages in the Bible that, when read alone, seem to be very set in stone.

As another user pointed out though, when we focus on a sentence, we lose the context of the paragraph.

I reconcile inflammatory parts of scripture by trying to capture what is really being said, what is really meant, through reading those parts alongside the surrounding text.

I guess, since I began treating the Bible with humanity - I can also see humanity in the Bible.

---

Of course, there are deeply entrenched social mores out there, regarding what the Bible means.

But you know - why was the Bible translated, printed, and shared with the laity to begin with?

It is because we realised one should read it for themselves. Spirituality is deeply personal. Let nobody ever speak for God. Let Him only speak to you.


Sarah x