General Discussions => Education => Gender Studies => Topic started by: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 02:13:56 PM Return to Full Version

Title: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 02:13:56 PM
I am currently putting a lot of thought into the idea of binary privilege... I think it exists, it certainly explains a lot of the tension between the binary and non-binary parts of the trans community. I believe it exists because we live in a world that places more worth on identities that fit the narrowly enforced narratives of binary identities, we see it when women benefit from benevolent sexism and when men are punished for not fitting a standard narrative of masculinity. Now this privilege works regardless of whether you're cis or trans - if you fit within the existing narrative you are less likely to be punished by kairarchial cistems of control.

Obviously being trans is something that goes against the cistem... But, because we all know at some level that fitting in makes you less of a target, we now have an assimilation narrative that permeates the trans world where blending and fitting in is not just seen as a good outcome, but the desired one. How often do you here chatter where people are actively being judged on their ability to fit in to the cistem?

Yeah, it happens all the damn time.

Trouble is, if you are non-binary and/or gender non conforming, you don't fit any of those narratives. Trying to navigate a community infused with a binary assimilation narrative is actually quite toxic if you don't fit neatly, I've noticed countless little micro-aggressions that make it very easy for non-binaries to appear defensive. I've also noticed binary identified individuals who appear to feel threatened by people who don't fit those narrow binary definitions that seem to be held in esteem (obvs the true trans and HBS mob are an extremely militant version of that way of thinking).

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 02:44:18 PM
Sure, let's throw up another term or definition to divide us.  ::)
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 03:11:41 PM
Conflict between binary and non-binary has already been flagged as a problem, all I'm doing is applying some radical feminist critique as to the reasons why it might be. I'm not claiming it's right, or telling people how to think, I'm trying to build a discussion about something that is an issue.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dee Marshall on September 22, 2014, 04:34:44 PM
I'm not sure if you're right or wrong but I see what you're saying. I feel you need to be careful how you apply it. You bring it up in quite a few threads and it sometimes seems more divisive than explicative, almost like you're throwing up your hands. Can you apply it to propose solutions? If not, is it doing any good?

I remember the Beatles writing in a similar context, "if you go 'round carryin' pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow."

If you're sure of your theory, then now is the time for education, not criticism or blame.

I truly hope you'll take this as an attempt to help and not as mere criticism.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: stephaniec on September 22, 2014, 05:41:36 PM
I define myself as  a pre-op bisexual  MTF transgender 90% want-a-be binary little red book carrying 60's radical hippi Jesus freak who's not going to make it with anyone any how,, so where do I fit  in  the cistem. I say hey Jude just let it be all you need is LOVE
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 05:48:30 PM
Well acknowledging that it exists would be a start, but at this point I can't say with certainty that it's absolutely a thing. More people need to talk about their experience and if those experiences back up what I've been saying then we can think about moving forward.

I want to get a conversation going about this, to add more voices to it and then try and find a way forward. 
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Ltl89 on September 22, 2014, 06:29:17 PM
I'm sure there certainly is privileged involved as it's harder to be understood, accepted and/or get proper medical treatment as a non-binary (at least I assume this).  Personally, I don't feel threatend or upset by the idea of non-binary individuals and their identity.  I will say that it confuses me at times, but personally I'm a binary who hates the enforcement of gender roles in general.  I just wish we could all be accepting of each other's identities and desires rather than dictate how other's should feel which happens in both camps way too often.   Still, I confess that I don't understand non-binaries as well as I would like as it's often that their are many diverse feelings and it differs from person to person.  Because of this, I'm sure I have said things that were ignorant or catered stricly to a binary audience, but I try to learn as I go and reduce my ignorance when I mess up.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jill F on September 22, 2014, 06:38:43 PM
I don't understand the conflict.  We are all gender variant with common needs and goals. 

I initially ID'd as non-binary, but after some serious soul-searching with a clear head and estrogen in my veins, I discovered that I was actually pretty darn binary.  I still think androgyny rocks.

And I don't feel privileged in any way.  In fact, the opposite.  Last I checked, one of the last things you'd ever want to be in this world is transgender.  I guess it's better than being dead, and I'll take that.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 06:56:05 PM
Please understand that when I talk about privilege I'm talking about systems which grant groups and narratives preference. Being trans absolutely puts us all at odds with the cistem, but I also know that historically the medical community has definitely placed greater worth on trans lives and narratives which fitted into narrow heteronormative definitions of gender.

Like I said I'm trying to start a discussion around the topic, with a hope of moving things forward.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 07:05:15 PM
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 06:56:05 PM
Like I said I'm trying to start a discussion around the topic, with a hope of moving things forward.
People ARE discussing it. You keep discounting what is said.

This topic is being watched VERY closely.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 07:09:08 PM
Clarifying points of misunderstanding is not the same as discounting an opinion.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 07:14:26 PM
There is nothing like binary privilege out there. People are treated the same or doctors face malpractice and legal entanglements. There was no binary privilege on my Ambulance, Helicopter or any Emergency Room I ever worked in. I have never seen anything closely resembling special care for binaries. Where this binary privilege idea came from is anybody's guess and has no merit at all. What next? People who eat creamy peanut butter get preference in treatment over those who eat chunky style?
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Ltl89 on September 22, 2014, 07:36:14 PM
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 07:14:26 PM
There is nothing like binary privilege out there. People are treated the same or doctors face malpractice and legal entanglements. There was no binary privilege on my Ambulance, Helicopter or any Emergency Room I ever worked in. I have never seen anything closely resembling special care for binaries. Where this binary privilege idea came from is anybody's guess and has no merit at all. What next? People who eat creamy peanut butter get preference in treatment over those who eat chunky style?

Jessica,

Do you think access to hormones, Srs and many other things that gatekeepers try to keep from us is as easy to access for non-binaries as it is for binaries.  Discrimination doesn't always have to be as draconian as not giving somone cpr, sometimes it could be a matter of access to care which can be quite as lifesaving for many of us (it was for me).  Think about it this way.  There are so many roadblocks in the life of a trans person, you don't think fiting the binary model doesn't make social acceptance and understanding easier as well as starting a transition and making progress in it.  It's almost like someone born into wealth saying that it was just as   easy for the poor person to start and grow their business as it was for them.  Sure, the rich man had roadblocks and may have worked for their sucess, but their is a "privledge" that may have made it easier for them to suceed.  Doesn't make them a bad person, nor does it make us in the binary camp bad either.  But there must be acknowledgement that it does exist.  I can't speak for non-binaries and they probably have better points than I but I would urge you to really consider it before saying it doesn't exist. 
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Ltl89 on September 22, 2014, 07:39:53 PM
Quote from: learningtolive on September 22, 2014, 07:36:14 PM
Jessica,

Do you think access to hormones, Srs and many other things that gatekeepers try to keep from us is as easy to access for non-binaries as it is for binaries.  Discrimination doesn't always have to be as draconian as not giving somone cpr, sometimes it could be a matter of access to care which can be quite as lifesaving for many of us (it was for me).  Think about it this way.  There are so many roadblocks in the life of a trans person, you don't think fiting the binary model doesn't make social acceptance and understanding easier as well as starting a transition and making progress in it.  It's almost like someone born into wealth saying that it was just as   easy for the poor person to start and grow their business as it was for them.  Sure, the rich man had roadblocks and may have worked for their sucess, but their is a "privledge" that may have made it easier for them to suceed.  Doesn't make them a bad person, nor does it make us in the binary camp bad either.  But there must be acknowledgement that it does exist.  I can't speak for non-binaries and they probably have better points than I but I would urge you to really consider it before saying it doesn't exist.

My anology wasn't stated in the best way, but my point is sometimes people are in a more favorable position or have more resources to their disposal than another group.  Doesn't make the person in the privledged group bad, but it can make them privledged.  I think my econmic background made my life easier than it could have been had I come from a poorer background and I feel the same way about being binary.  I esily got hormones, and acceptance outside my family has been easier than it would have been had I not fit into a binary label. 
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 07:43:47 PM
Thank you for your insightful comments  :)
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: TeeBoi on September 22, 2014, 08:56:05 PM
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 07:14:26 PM
Where this binary privilege idea came from is anybody's guess and has no merit at all. What next? People who eat creamy peanut butter get preference in treatment over those who eat chunky style?

I'm new to this forum, so I'm not sure what the "unwritten" rules are, but I'm massively shocked to see someone (least of all a mod) be so dismissive and derisive of other people's experiences. I am literally having to pretend to be male identified at the moment in order to get treatment for my dysphoria, because non-binary identities are seen as less valid. How can you not see that as a disadvantage?  Every time I fill out a form and there's a box next to "F" and a box next to "M" and there's nowhere for me to put my little tick, I am reminded that society doesn't believe I exist. I have been excluded from trans spaces before because I was seen as "not trans enough"! A binary identified person saying binary privilege does not exist is EXACTLY the same as a cis person saying trans people are not discriminated against, or a white person saying racism is a thing of the past. So yeah, I'm shocked that a fellow trans person could be so blinkered, and I'm even more shocked that, as someone of stature in this online community, you would see the struggles of a whole section of that community as comparable to a food preference. Particularly as this is in the gender studies section, even if you disagreed with a point, I would have expected a (frankly) more grown up response.

I normally close with ciao peeps, but I'm feeling decidedly less cheerful than that right now
Tee
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jill F on September 22, 2014, 09:14:50 PM
Quote from: TeeBoi on September 22, 2014, 08:56:05 PM
Every time I fill out a form and there's a box next to "F" and a box next to "M" and there's nowhere for me to put my little tick, I am reminded that society doesn't believe I exist. I have been excluded from trans spaces before because I was seen as "not trans enough"! A binary identified person saying binary privilege does not exist is EXACTLY the same as a cis person saying trans people are not discriminated against, or a white person saying racism is a thing of the past.

I used to check both boxes, but the plight of some NBs is well stated here.   As a transwoman, I certainly don't feel privileged at all for more or less fitting into the binary, but I think it sucks that you have been shat upon by the "more trans than thous", of all people (who should know better).   I used to think a non-binary ID had the potential for "best of both worlds" and enjoy its own sort of advantages, but now I'm not entirely sure of that.  I can see how cispeople might not get it, but I am shocked that people in the trans community don't either. 

Again, we gender variant people will not achieve our goals in a timely fashion unless we embrace each other.  I don't want to see those who want to hold us back use this apparent rift to their advantage.  Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book, and if it happens to us, our rights will take much longer to be granted.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 10:16:15 PM
Quote from: learningtolive on September 22, 2014, 07:36:14 PM
Do you think access to hormones, Srs and many other things that gatekeepers try to keep from us is as easy to access for non-binaries as it is for binaries. 
Yes I do, but since my OPINION is not with the status quo of this topic MY opinion is invalid. If you really wanted to get people together you would consider and ask the person WHY they feel this way, not vilify them in topic. I do not care what non binaries do or believe because that is their prerogative and kind of what freedom is all about. It is when binaries are accused of being special or privileged that things turn. Enough of the pity party as a lot of us see non binaries with the same access and respect for treatment we binaries have. Both groups have to prove themselves just to get care they need just the same. YOU are placing a division when you say another group has privilege, not me.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: TeeBoi on September 22, 2014, 11:56:50 PM
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 10:16:15 PM
Enough of the pity party as a lot of us see non binaries with the same access and respect for treatment we binaries have. Both groups have to prove themselves just to get care they need just the same.

Firstly, you seem to be forgetting that the vast majority of "binaries" don't need to seek treatment at all as they're cis. Secondly, it is incorrect that non binary people have equal access to treatment, and it isn't about opinion, it is about fact; I was refused treatment for dysphoria as ftgq (as per policy), and granted access to the exact same treatment when pretending to be ftm. Finally, when discussing the oppression and suffering of a marginalized section of society, the term "pity party" is highly disrespectful (again, you're a moderator, you should be setting an example).

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 10:16:15 PM
YOU are placing a division when you say another group has privilege, not me.

By that logic, we can blame racism on people of colour because they're "placing a division" when they point it out. What utter nonsense!

Why do you find it so hard to accept that the kyriarchy looks favourably on heteronormative gender identities? Every, and I mean EVERY aspect of our society is dominated by a binary heteronormative narrative. How can anyone deny the inherant privilege that engenders? I think the question should not be if it exists, but rather WHY are we only now starting to talk about it?
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: androgynouspainter26 on September 22, 2014, 11:57:13 PM
Jessica,

No, we are not trying to create a division any more than anyone who recognizes that a problem exists and wants to fix it is trying to create a problem.  The fact is that very, very often, people who don't fit into the standard narrative.  Because I don't always present in a stereotypically "feminine" way, I was denied my HRT letter by the first therapist I saw.  And I do feel unwelcome in a lot of trans* spaces, because we can't seem to have a nice, calm discussion without things turning into a flame war.

I feel like the word "privilege" is not a very good descriptor in general.  Rather, life is simply easier in a lot of ways for binary folks, especially when it comes to accessing medical care and trans* spaces.  I'm not accusing binary identified people as being better, worse, special, or anything else.  I'm saying that their lives happen to be a bit easier than ours-and the solution here is to come together as a community.  This is an important thing to talk about not to create devision but to bring us all closer together, so that we might better understand and advocate for the needs of others who are different from us.  It's not meant to be an accusation at all!  This is meant to be a topic for us to share our experiences and work, together, to expand the minds of people with different experiences.  So please-don't call this a division, because it shouldn't be one.  It's simply another set of obstacles to overcome, and one we think the trans* community should be working to do as one-not in divided parts. 
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 12:06:16 AM
The simple reason you may have been denied treatment for transition is based on WPATH SOCs. It was not me setting these policies, but a world wide group of medical professionals. I am not trying to say this is right or wrong how the SOCs were written. I am only trying to say that their is no privilege as providers go by the SOCs, that's all. They may deny care by the participant failing to meet the criteria currently in place. People here are saying they should be included, well, ok I agree with that. I have never said they should not. I am just saying policy may be blocking treatment, not identifying as one class or group or another. Treatment is based on current care protocols, period. Do you disagree this is the real issue (the SOCs) and not special favor to one group or another??
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: androgynouspainter26 on September 23, 2014, 12:14:26 AM
Well.  The SOCs (inadvertently) favor some people over others.  Which is what I mean by privlage.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 12:17:07 AM
They do not favor some people. If a person does not meet the criteria, no transition. It is not my fault at all as I had no input into the SOCs. It is just providers following a set protocol. Take it up with them, but don't say I am privileged because I meet the criteria and follow the published, current protocol.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: androgynouspainter26 on September 23, 2014, 12:23:18 AM
But that is what privilege IS!  It is fitting into these protocols.  Nobody ever once said you were responsable for any of this!  Of course they favor some people over others-their policies are obviously make it so people like me are going to have a harder time getting a vaginaplasty than you.  You aren't being denied care because you fit into their system.  That is a privilege I do not have.  And yeah, the SOCs need to change.  I'm not saying any of this is your fault, just that it exists.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Ltl89 on September 23, 2014, 12:25:47 AM
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 10:16:15 PM
Yes I do, but since my OPINION is not with the status quo of this topic MY opinion is invalid. If you really wanted to get people together you would consider and ask the person WHY they feel this way, not vilify them in topic. I do not care what non binaries do or believe because that is their prerogative and kind of what freedom is all about. It is when binaries are accused of being special or privileged that things turn. Enough of the pity party as a lot of us see non binaries with the same access and respect for treatment we binaries have. Both groups have to prove themselves just to get care they need just the same. YOU are placing a division when you say another group has privilege, not me.

Jess,

This isn't a fight and I'm a little surprised I'm seeing terms like "vilify" and "pity party" in your response.  Your opinion is your right and it doesn't make you invalid.  I just wanted everyone to consider a different perpspective as the challenges for some of us in the community differ based on own situation.  You don't have to agree with how I see it.  Personally, I have little doubt that access to things such as hrt is much different hrt can be very different when you are binary and non-binary.  That isn't vilifying, it's recognizing that there is a systematic approval of one narrative over another in order to get treatment approved.  Sure, this isn't true of all providers, but it does happen often.  And the fact is privledge is a term often misunderstood.  It's not meant to be negative against those with it, but rather having an upper deck that can be beneficial or more advantagous to a situation.  I don't see how that is vilifying.

Anyway, it's not a fight and I'm leaving this topic because I think things are going to take an unintended turn and that wasn't my intention.  If you don't see it the same way as I do, then that's your opinion and right (which I disagree with but never stated was invalid). I just can't agree with you on this topic as I do think my somewhat fitting the trans narrative was beneficial to getting treatment so quickly and may be why others had to fight just to get hormones (and I've seen it before.   Let's face it, in terms of our treatment in the world, there is a lot of work to be done in many places.  Because of that, I would agree it's better to come together than tear each other down.  There is no point in that, but recognizing diversity and unique challenges among those in the same community doesn't have to be a divisive issue.  At least that's how I see it and is just my opinion. 
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 12:28:28 AM
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on September 23, 2014, 12:23:18 AM
But that is what privilege IS! 
I do not agree with this term at all. Privilege would occur if you and I met the criteria, but I got the surgery because I could afford it and you could not. THAT is privilege. I do not have privilege if I follow the criteria and meet it where you do not for the same surgery.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: androgynouspainter26 on September 23, 2014, 12:35:23 AM
Privlage, advantage, whatever you call it.  Doesn't it seem a bit unfair to you that I do not fit that criteria?  That whomever wrote these rules happened to give you an advantage I do not have?  The advantage of being able to get surgery because you meet those standards?

This is like a white person telling a black one that racism doesn't exist.  I'm sorry, but this system is unfair to me.  That's MY experience.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 12:37:25 AM
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on September 23, 2014, 12:35:23 AM
Privlage, advantage, whatever you call it.  Doesn't it seem a bit unfair to you that I do not fit that criteria?  That whomever wrote these rules happened to give you an advantage I do not have?  The advantage of being able to get surgery because you meet those standards?

This is like a white person telling a black one that racism doesn't exist.  I'm sorry, but this system is unfair to me.  That's MY experience.
How is it an advantage to follow the rules? I have no advantage, I am working for it. If the system is unfair to you change it, don't say I have an unfair advantage is all.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: mrs izzy on September 23, 2014, 12:37:40 AM
I guess being in the states most can get a gender marker changed with just a letter does now make them privileged class over so many who had to spend thousands of dollars to get the same done.

Its as I said before if everyone wants to whine over binary, non binary, or what ever label you wish to place on your self for just trying to make a argument then you all deserve the conflict.

I and many have been fighting for gender identity rights for years so today and tomorrow thing get better as a community.

Maybe we need to drop all the labels and talk as one community.

Tired of my ball is better then your ball.

Oh for some who can not determine between GM actions or forum member, this is a members rant on how childish this is becoming.

Isabell.....
 
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: androgynouspainter26 on September 23, 2014, 12:49:27 AM
I'm out of this topic.  It's amazing how much ignorance I'm finding on a forum for people who are some of the most understood in the world.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: TeeBoi on September 23, 2014, 01:03:27 AM
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 12:28:28 AM
I do not agree with this term at all. Privilege would occur if you and I met the criteria, but I got the surgery because I could afford it and you could not. THAT is privilege. I do not have privilege if I follow the criteria and meet it where you do not for the same surgery.

The primary definition of privilege is "a right or benefit that is given to some people and not to others".  This definition is appropriate enough, but let's not forget that this is the education/gender studies forum, so (as I think someone has said already) we are using the academic term, which has been widely assimilated into lay discussions of social inequality.

I don't think it's appropriate that this topic is getting flamed simply because you don't understand the language we are using.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: TeeBoi on September 23, 2014, 01:09:20 AM
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 12:37:25 AM
If the system is unfair to you change it,

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO!

The first step to changing an unfair system is POINTING OUT THAT THE SYSTEM IS UNFAIR. This thread is trying to do that very thing, and yet you keep popping up trying to shut down/derail the conversation, and denying the problem exists.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Sammy on September 23, 2014, 01:52:19 AM
Hmmm, I am contemplating (quite seriously) to start kicking my lazy ass out of comfort zone and get a Master's degree in gender studies...
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: stephaniec on September 23, 2014, 02:36:57 AM
so, let me get this straight because I'm only 11 months in. cis are  more privileged then gays, gays are more  privileged then bisexuals who are more privileged then  transgenders FTM's have it easier then MTF's with the effects of HRT, trans binary's are more privileged than trans non- binary's, wow, you need at least a masters degree  to understand this and all I wanted was to look great in heels and an expensive dress.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Sammy on September 23, 2014, 02:47:01 AM
Your sarcasm is appreciated.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 03:50:56 AM
Quote from: TeeBoi on September 23, 2014, 01:09:20 AM
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO!

The first step to changing an unfair system is POINTING OUT THAT THE SYSTEM IS UNFAIR. This thread is trying to do that very thing, and yet you keep popping up trying to shut down/derail the conversation, and denying the problem exists.
I am posting as a member. If you have a problem with that their are ways to properly report it. The public forum is not one of them.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: LordKAT on September 23, 2014, 04:05:06 AM
I am the most privileged of all, I'm just a KAT. I am the one and only uniquely me.


That is about the end of that advantage.

There is a binary privilege actually, The world expects you to have/be a boy or a girl, giving any other answer isn't even thought of. It definitely matters to getting treatment from what most all of you have said.


As to following rules, there used to be a rule about women and voting. Sure people had to follow it, but it needed changing. It would never have changed if some women didn't demand to have the same right as men, or the rules about which drinking fountain to use. If those rules which were actual laws can be changed, so can the SOC. I agree that you have to show how it is unfair in order for it to be changed.

I also think that the post op regret part would rise dramatically if there were no therapists involved or RLE of a sort.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: suzifrommd on September 23, 2014, 07:10:46 AM
The WPATH standards of care is set up to address the needs of binary trans people. Non-binary trans people were not on the minds of WPATH professionals when they authored them or when they treat them. Therefore, non-binary people have more trouble getting treatment.

OK, for those who would claim that this ISN'T a privilege, then what is it?

What word do we use when one group has easier access to treatment than another? If we're not to use the word "privilege" to refer to that, what word do we use?
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Sammy on September 23, 2014, 07:40:16 AM
Are we battling over semantics or trying to get to some point? Because if former then I can easily throw in some other terms to discuss and provoke and by the end of the day, there will be some warnings issued, +/- assigned, lots of confused people and satisfied trolls.
But... let's not, ok?
Binary privilege... to me it derives from the same source as cis-privilege, those are two sides of the same coin. If I am not mistaken, there are no cis-people who would at the same time be also non-binary, yup? They are are all strictly into binary, male and female, born that way and sure about their identities. And from here comes that many faceted cis-privilege towards transgender population, which by its existence (both - binary and non-binary trans), per se, defies the binary and cis- world as the only alternative and the associated privilege. Oh sh... I said that again.
But, I still find it quite ironical that while being a part of population whose existence comes in terms with binary perceptions of gender... same people would still fight tooth and nail to upkeep it... I just dont get it.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 23, 2014, 08:20:43 AM
Cis privilege absolutely results in trans lives being viewed as other, this has never been in doubt. But at the same time, the binary thinking that underpins cis privilege treats binary identities as more valid. Gender non-conforming cis individuals face harassment based on the fact they don't fit into a binary narrative.

Our trans lives have to go through (mostly) cis gatekeepers, who are almost always binary identified, which means that they can and do place more validity on binary trans lives than non-binary. People have shared their experiences of this happening to them. Is it genuinely that hard to believe that binary thinking doesn't permeate the trans world just as it does in the cis? We don't exist separately from the rest of the world, we're a part of it and dominant cultural narratives run through every facet of society. 

No ones life is any less valid than anyone else's, being binary is no worse or better than being non-binary. Not being the same =/= being less.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: EchelonHunt on September 23, 2014, 11:39:35 AM
We have a long, long way to go if we cannot discuss a topic about privileges without getting offended, defensive or throwing sarcasm around.

Privileges are a touchy subject, no doubt about that. Saying there is binary privilege should not be considered an attack on anyone's transition or their identity. Saying that transgender binary individuals have easier access to transitioning than non-binary should not invalidate your experiences nor should it make you feel compelled to defend yourself.

Because really, it's not about you, me or anyone else here. It's never been personal, only if you make it such. Binary privilege is about society, the binary rules that have been shoved down people's throats as the norm, the backwards thinking that if you act a certain way, you will be accepted and if you identify as anything else that is not accepted as the norm, we will either tear you down, make sure you fit our stifling standards or claim you do not exist and reject you.   

It is not about being better or being less than anyone. Having a privilege means as a group in general, people are granted a right that others aren't privy to.

Transgender binary individuals are granted the right to have access to transitioning, as long as they fit the SOC.

Non-binary individuals are ... sort of given that right, there is access to HRT and some surgeries available but as far as I am aware, bottom surgeries are completely off-limits to non-binaries unless they pretend to be binary to achieve those surgeries.

But nobody should have to pretend to be binary, nobody should have to pretend to be something they are not in order to receive the surgeries they require to elevate body dysphoria. It is a harsh reality for many of us, it is something real that people go through and suffer because they are not binary, because they do not fit perfectly in one box.

That's the society we live in now. The doors are open if you present as binary but if you present as non-binary, they will give you limited options. God forbid if you want a complete transition as a non-binary, you'll get laughed out of the office and the door slammed behind you. Alternatively, you can fight the system or die trying.

I have suffered this myself, even being raised as a biological female - I was denied mastectomy and hysterectomy because I had a healthy body and the view was, "Well, you're a young woman, you're going to have children one day, it's inevitable so no, you cannot have those surgeries." I was not allowed to control what I could do to my body, the decision had already been decided by doctors who were not the least bit sympathetic to my troubles and instead more concerned about their reputation.

The same thing happened again with my psychiatrist. I was very feminine in appearance and he would suggest I get a masculine haircut. Because yanno, there are no cis-guys who have long hair or anything. But I understood why my psychiatrist was suggesting to conform to gender stereotypes, it's so that the binary-populated society won't mistake me as a woman, it's so that the society can look at my gender expression (flat chest, short hair, male clothing, etc) and assume I am a man based on that.

I have had partners attempt to force me to be somebody who I am not. Being a feminine transguy, one partner expected me to be a walking example of a stereotypical sexist, hyper-masculine cis-guy. She expected me to be the "man" in the relationship, the one who initiates sex and who is highly sexual. If I did not wear traditionally male clothing, she would look horrified. If I expressed wanting to be on the receiving end of sex, she would be horrified. A heterosexual cis-female who was so incredibly close-minded by her views on binary and gender... well, it's no surprise that my relationship with her prompted me to question my identity as a male and whether or not I cared about fulfilling binary roles.

Turns out I don't care about binary roles whatsoever. Like rules, they are made to be broken and changed into rules that will allow me my freedom as an individual, not what society dictates.

In regards to the community, support and compassion for one another is crucial. The us vs. them mentality will not help anything except further divide the gap between us. We are all in this together, if we separate from one another, become apathetic about each other's troubles... What's the point? What's the point of being in a community together if we cannot empathize with each other's plights as human beings but instead continue to keep treating each other as two different sides of the same coin?

What will that achieve?

Absolutely nothing but endless bickering.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: skin on September 23, 2014, 01:14:39 PM
Yikes, this thread is making me sad.  Everyone has some sort of privilege.  Acknowledging that you have an advantage in one aspect of life over another group isn't saying you have it easy.  I would expect someone who is already in an marginalized group would be able to have a healthy discussion about other people's experiences without trying to tell them that they are wrong.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 01:31:19 PM
Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 23, 2014, 11:39:35 AM
Privileges are a touchy subject, no doubt about that.
Where I live being told you are privileged is an insult. This is why I am so triggered and defensive as the word privilege is a derogatory comment here. I respect others rights to do what they will and always have. I have supported members anytime and as long as they needed it and been there for them. Sadly I now see the reverse respect does not come to me. I am triggered by the word "privilege". I have explained why. Support for me in a tough time, non existent as I am being judged and slammed for trying unsuccessfully to explain why this triggers me so much. I suppose my feeling do not matter as others do.  :'(
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dee Marshall on September 23, 2014, 01:46:21 PM
Jessica, I'm so very sorry you're being triggered. I didn't catch on that you were although it was obvious that the topic bothers you. Please feel better. You're a valuable person here.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 01:51:00 PM
Quote from: Dee Walker on September 23, 2014, 01:46:21 PM
You're a valuable person here.
Thank you Dee, but not according to everyone else.

Yes, this topic hurt me, but smites and reports are what I get, not someone asking if I am OK. I was stupid to think support was a two way street.  :'(
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: skin on September 23, 2014, 02:19:11 PM
You keep saying respect and support are a two way street, but you have shown none of it in this thread.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 07:14:26 PM
There is nothing like binary privilege out there. People are treated the same or doctors face malpractice and legal entanglements. There was no binary privilege on my Ambulance, Helicopter or any Emergency Room I ever worked in. I have never seen anything closely resembling special care for binaries. Where this binary privilege idea came from is anybody's guess and has no merit at all. What next? People who eat creamy peanut butter get preference in treatment over those who eat chunky style?

This is not explaining why you are triggered by privilege discussions.  This is telling people that they are wrong and you know their experiences better than they do.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 10:16:15 PM
Yes I do, but since my OPINION is not with the status quo of this topic MY opinion is invalid.

Again, what you stated in that first quote was invalidating their experiences.  To turn around and accuse others of stomping out what you say is rather hypocritical.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 10:16:15 PM
I do not care what non binaries do or believe because that is their prerogative and kind of what freedom is all about.

You're right, respect and support should be a two way street.  If you don't care what other people think, why do you expect them to support you?

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 22, 2014, 10:16:15 PM
Enough of the pity party as a lot of us see non binaries with the same access and respect for treatment we binaries have. Both groups have to prove themselves just to get care they need just the same. YOU are placing a division when you say another group has privilege, not me.

They are discussing their challenges and you accuse them of having a pity party.  After they are (rightfully) offended, you expect them to have sympathy for you now?  First off, I am sorry you have a bad history that causes privilege discussions to be triggering.  Maybe in the future you should excuse yourself from them?  At the very least, if you do participate, clearly explain that you have a past that makes it a sensitive topic for you so people can work with that.  Because you do not get a free pass to disregard other people's experiences because you are triggered.

I highly recommend taking a step back, acknowledge you are going about this in an unproductive manner, and commit to learning from it.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Deinewelt on September 23, 2014, 07:06:25 PM
I think in some respects it could be related to the fact that a personal preference, which falls on the binary spectrum, attempts to more closely conform to the gender roles produced by the culture of our society; on the other hand, non-binary is much more non-conforming to this.  People may conform because that is how they identify and wish to present or because it is required in order to get something they need.  When I first decided to be trans, I wanted to get an orchi and just remain a guy.  After researching this, I found that it would be pretty difficult to do this.  The thing is, I identify with female so more research opened up my mind to trying more.  At the same time that I want to be defined as female, I have a complete utmost respect for not wanting to conform to the *ahem* guidelines if you identify yourself as being somewhere in between because I think that the fact that gender is so rigid is a root cause for the problems that we all experience.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 07:23:46 PM
OK, please don't jump me here as I am only asking a question. Let's say there is a bias against non binaries which is rooted in the WPATH SOCs. How do you get it changed when stealth is a big component in transgender people? If I don't totally understand it (non binary) and I am under the same umbrella how do you get medical professionals to acknowledge and write protocols for treating it? How would you be able to satisfy therapist's of stability to pursue surgery? If therapist's were out of the loop would post op regret non binaries sue surgeons for damages and how would that impact other trans people who may not be able to get surgery because of doctors exiting the field do to judgments being paid out by malpractice suits?  ???
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: androgynouspainter26 on September 23, 2014, 07:36:47 PM
Firstly, nobody is going to exit this field any time soon-if you havn't noticed, people will pay insane amounts of money for SRS.  Also, I'm not sure what it's like in the UK but stateside you sign away the right to sue if you regret anything.

Ok, so let's say stealth is a big component for many transexuals.  Well, what about trans women who don't pass?  I'm sure you've been clocked at least once since having your surgery.  Does not going stealth mean one should not have surgery?   Anyhow, that's not really the point.  What we need to do is expand the current umbrella to anyone who feels body dysphoria. Obviously we should have evaluative procedures, make sure people know what their getting into-we just need to do this on a more case-by-case basis.  For example, we should not require someone to live as what we percive as "female".  Rather, we should have a general period of commitment where someone takes steps to gain the body they feel they ought to have even if it doesn't involve fitting into someone else's idea of gender.  After that period of time, a therapist evaluates the case and gives them their letter if the therapist likes what they see.  Simple as that-it doesn't discriminate against people who may not have the same story as the majority of trans* people, and it's still far from easy to slip through the system if you aren't ready.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Kaelin on September 24, 2014, 12:41:49 AM
I'm going to park binary to the side for a moment.

Differential treatment within a community is common.  Feminism's origins were well-intentioned, but the face of the movement was overwhelmingly middle/upper class, white, Christian, heterosexual, and cisgender, and some of its early work provided no benefit to "other" women until other barriers were lowered and those other circumstances were taken into account ("intersectionality" is a key word with feminists for good reason).  Race movements, GLB movements, class movements, non-denominational movements, they've all experienced shortcomings in protecting "others," but they have had members with a broader vision to better-empower *all* people.  TG-support movements are not above this problem, even their relatively-fringe nature may make them more-aware of other struggles compared to other groups.

"Privilege" is a label, and while labels can provide convenience, that convenience is sometimes too slick for people to appropriately respond to.  Using a label tends to stop conversation rather than start it.  Furthermore, I think the privilege label is (typically) focused on the wrong place: what many people call privilege is usually not a case of the majority/power group enjoying a special benefit but instead the minority/outsider group being denied a right.  The segregated fountains/restaurants/schools up to the 50s did little to support white people -- rather, they subjugated and harassed racial minorities.  In that light, it is worth considering whether a particular issue is a denial of a right to the outsider or a special perk for an insider.

Binary privilege in particular seems to be an extreme example of this issue.  As a rule, I don't think that many people favor binaries as much as hurt (or simply overlook) non-binaries.  If we can look to elevate non-binaries so they can properly participate in society (selecting an appropriate gender box, having an appropriately-labeled bathroom to use if needed, expressing their identity, having a reasonable expectation of respectable pronouns being used, not being denied service, etc), that would constitute us getting the job done.  Challenging binaries to "get it right" will be a part of that process, but we don't have to take away anything from them (other than a little time and effort) to do it.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: skin on September 24, 2014, 02:53:45 AM
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 07:23:46 PM
OK, please don't jump me here as I am only asking a question. Let's say there is a bias against non binaries which is rooted in the WPATH SOCs. How do you get it changed when stealth is a big component in transgender people?

Stealth is a big component for some transgender people.  To those who wish to be stealth, changing the SOC to be less focused on living in a rigid gender role would not negatively affect them.  On the other side of the coin, I don't think being successfully stealth proves stability.  Even those of us who are pretty much shifting from one binary role to the other are still challenging gender norms, so the idea that successfully conforming to a different gender role is what determines whether we can get our ticket punched to do so is pretty illogical to me.  I think the "If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be well controlled" bullet point sufficiently encompasses the stability for surgery without needing the 12 month in a role requirement.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 24, 2014, 07:06:32 AM
Unfortunately WPATH has been set up so that while anyone can join, only professionals in the fields of transgender health have a vote. I won't pull figures out of thin air, but I'm willing to bet that their largely cis and binary identified. It's a problem but not one that can be easily solved, though I think we can do stuff from within the community. Certainly respecting non-binary paths as valid is a good start, and we should all be careful and respectful of people's paths when offering advice, it can be a habit for sure, but if people take a bit of time thinking about what they've said before posting things might flow more smoothly. Obviously we have the mod team for when that goes awry.

Blending in is obviously a huge goal for many trans people, but as a forum and as a wider community we need to push back against the culture of judging people's worth as trans by their appearance and ability to blend in. Obviously this has it's source in WPATH, which is going to be harder to change, but hopefully we could lead the way. No one should have to live visibly if they don't want to, but people also shouldn't feel less for not wanting to or being able to. Again, all paths are valid, being different =/= being less.

In hindsight binary privilege was a provocative descriptor, but it incited real discussion over the issue which is what I wanted.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: suzifrommd on September 24, 2014, 08:47:01 AM
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 01:31:19 PM
Where I live being told you are privileged is an insult. This is why I am so triggered and defensive as the word privilege is a derogatory comment here. I respect others rights to do what they will and always have. I have supported members anytime and as long as they needed it and been there for them. Sadly I now see the reverse respect does not come to me. I am triggered by the word "privilege". I have explained why. Support for me in a tough time, non existent as I am being judged and slammed for trying unsuccessfully to explain why this triggers me so much. I suppose my feeling do not matter as others do.  :'(

I'm so sorry that this has been insulting to you. I'll try to use different language in the future. I asked about that earlier in this thread but the post was buried before it got answered.

Is there another term I could use that wouldn't be insulting? I.e. what word means "having the system set up (through no fault of one's own) so that one has an easier time getting what they need" without using the word 'privilege'? What other word is preferable?
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jaime R D on September 24, 2014, 08:56:52 AM
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 24, 2014, 08:47:01 AM
I'm so sorry that this has been insulting to you. I'll try to use different language in the future. I asked about that earlier in this thread but the post was buried before it got answered.

Is there another term I could use that wouldn't be insulting? I.e. what word means "having the system set up (through no fault of one's own) so that one has an easier time getting what they need" without using the word 'privilege'? What other word is preferable?
How about "binary biased system"
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Cindy on September 24, 2014, 09:08:42 AM
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 24, 2014, 07:06:32 AM
Unfortunately WPATH has been set up so that while anyone can join, only professionals in the fields of transgender health have a vote. I won't pull figures out of thin air, but I'm willing to bet that their largely cis and binary identified. It's a problem but not one that can be easily solved, though I think we can do stuff from within the community. Certainly respecting non-binary paths as valid is a good start, and we should all be careful and respectful of people's paths when offering advice, it can be a habit for sure, but if people take a bit of time thinking about what they've said before posting things might flow more smoothly. Obviously we have the mod team for when that goes awry.

Blending in is obviously a huge goal for many trans people, but as a forum and as a wider community we need to push back against the culture of judging people's worth as trans by their appearance and ability to blend in. Obviously this has it's source in WPATH, which is going to be harder to change, but hopefully we could lead the way. No one should have to live visibly if they don't want to, but people also shouldn't feel less for not wanting to or being able to. Again, all paths are valid, being different =/= being less.

In hindsight binary privilege was a provocative descriptor, but it incited real discussion over the issue which is what I wanted.

Well I have to disagree. WPath and all the *PATHs were originally set up by medical providers from the Benjamin model. They were set up as discussion groups because medical providers had no way of quickly communicating to each other. The need to have community members has been recognised but there is still a need for private areas for medical providers, this has been and continues to be beneficial. I feel there is also disinformation as well as far as gender identification, I know that the executive secretary of ANZPATH is a transwoman - me!  and I personally know the executive of WPATH and the other *PATHS and while not outing anyone, there is not a majority of cis and the gender variance in fact reflects the community.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Deinewelt on September 24, 2014, 09:30:07 AM
It seems like non-binary is just more confusing to the system because it doesn't fit their narrative.  It would make sense to try to create a non-binary narrative that is acceptable to the majority of non-binary transgender in order that they can receive the support they need.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jaime R D on September 24, 2014, 09:35:35 AM
Quote from: Deinewelt on September 24, 2014, 09:30:07 AM
It seems like non-binary is just more confusing to the system because it doesn't fit their narrative.  It would make sense to try to create a non-binary narrative that is acceptable to the majority of non-binary transgender in order that they can receive the support they need.
But the issue is that there is no one narrative that is acceptable. And I do believe they can be supported without the whole universal narrative being necessary. Just view them as individuals and go from there, not as a group with a one experience fits all approach.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Dread_Faery on September 24, 2014, 09:43:51 AM
Quote from: Cindy on September 24, 2014, 09:08:42 AM
Well I have to disagree. WPath and all the *PATHs were originally set up by medical providers from the Benjamin model. They were set up as discussion groups because medical providers had no way of quickly communicating to each other. The need to have community members has been recognised but there is still a need for private areas for medical providers, this has been and continues to be beneficial. I feel there is also disinformation as well as far as gender identification, I know that the executive secretary of ANZPATH is a transwoman - me!  and I personally know the executive of WPATH and the other *PATHS and while not outing anyone, there is not a majority of cis and the gender variance in fact reflects the community.

I freely admit that I was speaking from a position of conjecture, knowing that what I said was wrong makes me feel better about this.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: EchelonHunt on September 24, 2014, 11:24:49 AM
Jessica, I am sorry that you got triggered by the topic. As hard as it may be to believe, I do respect you and value your opinion highly. It's just the way you went about it in this topic has made me disappointed, to say the least.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 07:23:46 PM
How do you get it changed when stealth is a big component in transgender people? If I don't totally understand it (non binary) and I am under the same umbrella how do you get medical professionals to acknowledge and write protocols for treating it?

I am glad you brought this point up.

Cisgender (Majority) <-> Lesbian, Gay and Bisexuals (Minority)
Lesbian, Gay and Bisexuals (Majority) <-> Transgender umbrella (Minority)
Transgender umbrella (Majority) <-> Non-Binary (Minority)

This crudely done scale displays the existing problem - non-binary are a minority within a minority within a minority.

I do not know what the community's stance in these forums are about same-sex marriage and gay rights but let's say for example, as a community, we supported same-sex marriage and gay rights. Everyone, including the supportive cisgender folks. That would be enough people to gain awareness and more than likely, there will be family members of many lesbian, gay and bisexual individuals who will support the cause as well. We can already see this happening as many states have allowed same-sex marriage to be legalized as each day passes.

Imagine if the non-binary group tried to raise awareness for non-binary rights and adjusting the SOC to support full transition for non-binaries on their own. It would be the equivalent of a single person shouting in the middle of a raging storm. It would be very difficult unless the entire community joined forces and shouted altogether, hand in hand.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 23, 2014, 07:23:46 PM
How would you be able to satisfy therapist's of stability to pursue surgery? If therapist's were out of the loop would post op regret non binaries sue surgeons for damages and how would that impact other trans people who may not be able to get surgery because of doctors exiting the field do to judgments being paid out by malpractice suits?  ???

Non-binaries will have to go through the same protocols you do to get the surgeries you desire which would be therapy to ensure there are no underlying psychological issues or mental disorders and to make sure the person is of a stable mind. I'm not expecting non-binaries to get a free-pass, bypass therapy entirely and given a letter for HRT/surgery because I would not agree with that process at all. It would be unfair and it would certainly make NBs privileged - that is not the aim here.

The chances of post-op regret would be greatly diminished if therapy is involved and deep introspection on the individual's part, analyzing every bit of their inner core to ensure that the surgery will elevate dysphoria and improve their life greatly. NB are not fickle, they do not impulsively wake up one morning and go, "Yes, I want a penis/vagina."

It is very similar to the process you go through yourself. You know deep within yourself what you need and you take the steps towards your goal, you will trek through forests, swim through many oceans, stagger through deserts, brave the blizzards and conquer mountains, whatever possible to attain your end goal. We, the non-binaries, the ones who pursue surgery to align our bodies with our mind, just like you, are walking a similar path.

The lack of post-op regret would mean you do not need to worry about how it will negatively affect you and your sisters/brothers. Your fears are valid, I can completely understand the distress and mere thought of having transitioning and the rules being made more tightly than ever before, maybe even losing members to suicide because they are being denied surgery/transition due to the tightened rules.

To clarify, I am not discrediting your fears. I want to point out the fact that your fears appear to be only focused on you and your transgender binary sisters/brothers, fears about how the consequences of non-binaries accessing full-transitioning and backpedaling can negatively hinder you in your/their destinations, fears about your right to surgery/transition will ultimately be taken away from you, fears of respectable surgeons bowing out of the field due to malpractice suits, fears that you and others will never get the body you have been fighting to get your entire life.

This is what closes your heart to us, this is why probably why you will continue to struggle to understand because your fears are closing your heart and casting your eyes away from what really matters. Do you you see us as an obstacle in your path? A threat to you and your sisters/brothers? You say that you are supportive and respectful of others here but your responses and presumptions in this thread say otherwise.

We are not the enemy, there is no need to keep fighting us because we are fighting the same battle. We are not going to take away your right to transition or your right to surgery - that has never been our aim. We just want to be on equal grounds with you, to share the same right as you as equal individuals on similar paths. Why is that so hard to understand..?

Instead of fearing the worst, why not suggest ways we can work together so we can both receive that equal right - ways we can both be happy without giving up anything? We need to come together as one and discuss a solution we can all help work towards, how we can raise awareness together, how we can find out the best way of educating society that non-binaries exist and from there, we can only hope that enough support is raised that we can bring it to the medical board and finally, the SOC can be modified to allow non-binaries to have complete transition.

It will be a long battle but it will be worth it and I truly believe as we work together to reach that goal, fears will be dismantled and our resolve as a community will become stronger.

Again, I am sorry you got triggered. I hope you will take it easy and recover soon. I do not hate you, I do not think of you as the enemy, I just think that you were getting defensive for all the wrong reasons instead of looking at the bigger picture. I do thank you for the questions you have raised though, it brings more to the discussion to talk about.

Kind regards,

Jacey

Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Deinewelt on September 24, 2014, 01:39:38 PM
Quote from: Jaime R D on September 24, 2014, 09:35:35 AM
But the issue is that there is no one narrative that is acceptable. And I do believe they can be supported without the whole universal narrative being necessary. Just view them as individuals and go from there, not as a group with a one experience fits all approach.

I totally agree, I just hope this is possible.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 02:27:06 PM
Privilege isn't a bad word. Having privilege doesn't make you a bad person.
It just means that things are unfair for other people.

And I think that there is privilege for people in the gender binary.
It's very hard for people to be genderqueer, like agender and stuffystuffs like that when most people are expecting you to be a man or a woman.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jen72 on October 07, 2014, 03:23:52 PM
I feel the perfect solution would be an evaluation by a therapist and the individual to discover the path to which they should proceed.  However there are two points that really make this not perfect.

Fear:

Society what ever group faction or whatever fears other groups and breaking those fears takes time a lot of it. As to conforming to a binary aspect one would fit into the general population better then non binary so from the mental aspect of the person a non binary would struggle more due to societal fear of something different/unknown. Which is probably why the current system leans to binary more so there for yes privilege.

Honesty:

Lets face it how many are going to be 100% honest to their therapist and the therapist to the individual as well as the individual to themselves.  From my perspective I have not been totally honest with myself getting better mind you. In order to counter dishonesty however it comes a criteria is set forth to weed out said dishonesty.

Really yes things need to change the tricky part is the how to set forth criteria that fit. Only things I can think of is to make sure the person is of sound mind of course and they are truly honest with themselves and evaluator. Lastly to spend some time to at least research and look at what that change will really mean (RLE). As for the RLE for non binary it should work in such away to fit them not as it sits. Perhaps a MTF must wear prosthetic breasts for 6 months to experience it before they get real ones. Bottom aspect well that of course more difficult not sure what maybe again MTF wear chastity or FTM wear a packer as experience to what that really feels like before said surgery/change.

As far as privilege itself to some degree it will always exist and some not so I can think of one in Canada that is a funky example of what should or should not be allowed.  East Indian males are religiously allowed to wear a ceremonial dagger all the time.  However in Canada you are not allowed to be carrying a weapon.  So which is right the privilege of religion or the privilege of societies safety. Unless this has changed society safety has the privilege over religion in this matter. So to some degree rights and privilege should be warranted and some denied. I emphasize to some degree as what should perhaps be done with non binary is a more detailed evaluation as far as how they can cope with not fitting into general society. This is not to make the non binary any less privileged due to more intense evaluation but to better prepare for the life they are about to embark upon which is to fight society more so then a binary transgender. Since a binary transgender in theory blends into society.

Lastly to be honest my path is just begun but I can see both sides and make a decision from what others have said and think upon said issue.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: helen2010 on October 07, 2014, 03:45:11 PM
Jen

I think I know what you are saying and agree that binary society (cis and Trans) struggles with understanding NB.  While it is right for this to be questioned and explored by the individual and by their therapist, this is just as true for the binary identified trans.

Therapy and the journey for self discovery and acceptance is the search for authenticity, for the tools and confidence to live your truth.  If the discomfort experienced by others appears to be of concern there are a number of mechanisms and skills that can be applied or developed.

In society it has never been a good idea to force integration with the majority, whether it has been with religious, political or indigenous groups.  Harm results when diversity is forcibly attacked.

We have to be very careful that a patriarchal approach which seeks to achieve conformity is not just lateral violence in disguise.  I am uncomfortable with the example of the dagger that you have used.  The presence of NB does not pose a physical threat to any part of binary society.  Education is needed for the majority, not misguided attempts at 'reeducation' or forced conformity with the binary model.  Indeed such an approach isn't too dissimilar to that which CIS society originally tried to apply to the broader trans community, reeducate, deny and hide, because we made them uncomfortable, and in some cases were perceived as a threat to the staus quo of cis society.

Safe travels

Aisla
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Taka on October 07, 2014, 05:30:15 PM
i see no ned for rle as far as i am concerned. but then again, i've already worn green hair, and even pink as a teacher. can i cope with not fitting in? totally. in my case i'm more likely to not even remember that i stick out until someone reminds me. and i won't let them get away with doing it impolitely.

the lack of available treatment options is still what worries me most, and feels most unfair.

great to have grown up at the bottom of every kyriarchy... the fight for equal rights never ends for me. hopefully it will be easier for my daughter, but with the way these discussions seem to take, i fear for her generation as well.
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Jen72 on October 07, 2014, 07:51:56 PM
Sorry perhaps bad example with dagger but was not my point to be about threat.  '

Actually transgender in a sense do pose a threat to CIS In that they fear what they cannot comprehend which is why someone is so different from themselves. I am not saying transgender intend this whatsoever but some peoples ego can get threatened by something that throws them off guard and then in a sense they have a fear that their own identity is threatened (insecurity). However in reality the threat is truly non existent but fear is in the mind not truly real if that makes any sense. This will probably change in time to a degree as people learn what transgender really are but some will always be threatened such as an alpha male looking at a MTF going why/how could you do that?

My point was basically when two sides clash a compromise must be met and within that compromise most likely one party will face some degree of privilege or disadvantage.

On the conformity yes not my intent to assimilate but NB being able to cope with oppression from the majority (if need help). On the latter I see Taka can and does cope well with it my idea was for someone who needs help to get to that stage if need be of course.

I hope this clarifies things a bit. Sometimes bad at conveying what I mean:)
Title: Re: Binary privilege.
Post by: Taka on October 08, 2014, 02:32:26 AM
when you put it like that... part of successful treatment may be help to not only be oneaelf, but also find ways to meet society that don't make a person break down in anxiety. finding out what the needs really are and consodering pros and cons of different presentations, as well as having support while trying it out, would be a good strategy.

but hormone treatment may be necessary even before changing presentation. finding out if this is necessary, and whether side effects, like changing voice or breast growth are acceptable to a person, is also of importance. but many don't really know until they've tried. there really is no one size fits all for non-binary, and every treatment must be worked out between the person and their doctors.

but health authorities are unfortunately not yet willing to take this step, not in all states and countries. it's frustrating and damaging to an already marginalized group. and many binary transsexuals unfortunately care more about what rights they may lose (unlikely to happen) or the possible invalidation they may face, than the benefits that also many binary transsexuals would get with a possibility for better tailored treatment.