Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi, I've kind of discovered I'm a girl. I'm transwoman. Deep down in my heart, I've always felt like a girl.

But sometimes I wasn't sure, or I didn't feel that way. Like for instance, I don't want boobs or curves. I would be unhappy if I had boobs or wide hips. I want to be feminine, but in other ways.
So I'm worried about HRT because I don't want to grow boobs. I hadn't used HRT yet because I've seen so worried about curves. But I heard there's a medicine I can take that I can do HRT stuffs without growing breasts, and that it will block breast development.

But I don't know much about this, what it's called and how good it will be at stopping me from being curvy. What's it called and what all does it do? Is it really good at stopping breasts and curves or... is it p... could I still grow curves?

if you don't mind me asking what do you want the estrogen to do.

Quote from: stephaniec on September 29, 2014, 10:20:46 AM
if you don't mind me asking what do you want the estrogen to do.

I want to have a more feminine face. Well, I want to be more feminine in every way I can other than being curvy.

A lot of things I would like to be able to do I can't do very well with the technology right now sadly... like I would like to be shorter and have smaller feet and smaller shoulders.
Unfortunately, there aren't any safe surgeries for bones. So I'm stuck with having bigger feet than I would like for a while.. ;_;

But I hope that maybe HRT could make my face and my shoulders look a little more feminine. I.. I would hope.

I have never heard of anything that can stop breast development. Basically if you want to start HRT you are going to have to deal with developing breasts and all the other secondary characteristics. I have known more than a few women over the years who DON'T like the fact that they have breasts.

Your bone structure will never change. This is a reality we must all accept whether we like it or not. Now your shoulders might shrink some from muscle loss but nothing major from what I've seen.

Oh... I guess I heard wrong, then...

Maybe HRT isn't for me... ;_;

HRT has benefits besides physical changes.

Well, I believe the odds are in your favor. As I understand it, bust growth is often minimal with g-males on HRT, so there's a fair chance you'll get lucky and not develop much. It would be worthwhile to discuss this desire with your physician. She/he might have some ideas about adjusting your prescriptions for this. At the worst, you could do what g-women sometimes do when they feel their breasts are too large-- have reduction surgery. Those seem to me to be your options.

Quote from: Lyric on September 29, 2014, 11:53:11 AM
Well, I believe the odds are in your favor. As I understand it, bust growth is often minimal with g-males on HRT

I don't know about that. I developed A to B cups just on low dose HRT. You just never know what you are going to get.

I would suggest to the OP that you find a Therapist preferably with gender experience and explore this more. If facial changes are all you want you need to find some other approach like Facial Feminization Surgery. HRT is a funny thing and you cannot pick and choose what developments you want, it just does not work that way. Seeing your primary care doctor is fine, but unless they have experience with hormones in Mtf transitions would be in my opinion a waste of time.  :)

I'm definitely trying to see a therapist, thank you! It's a little bit hard, but I'm trying!

Maybe HRT isn't the best. But I do want face feminization surgery. Maybe that's all I'll need.

And maybe therapies and surgeries and things will get better in the future. I'm really hopeful for technology.
Thank you for the help, everyone.

I don't know what's your objective, do you don't want breasts because you don't like them or because you don't want to socially transition? Because it's different, I'd guess. If you want to socially transition and not having boobs or being curvaceous to an extent, then it'll make social transition much harder, if not almost impossible. There are women who are almost completely flat-chested, but they usually have a hard time and end up wearing push-ups or paddings.

Besides, if you take HRT, you'll most likely have feminization to some degree in all your body, not just face. It's impossible to monitor and choose changes, what you'll get will depend on how your body reacts to hormones. You could be one of the lucky ones who gets really busty, but in your case, unlucky since you don't want them. Or you could get minor breast development, huge hips and a very femininized face. The combinations are endless. If you really want to transition, then maybe the risk will be worth it. In the end if you're not happy with how busty you've become, you can always undergo breast reduction surgery. That could be an option for you. Most t women want breast agumentation, not reduction, but that doesn't mean you have to as well. For me, I'd really like to become very feminized face and then average to small breasts and a low Waist-To-Hip ratio, but that's me, I'm sure many feel different. And it's okay, we don't have to want all the same things.

It sounds to me like you could be non-binary.  But that's definitely something you'll want to talk through with a therapist who specializes in gender issues.  And that's an important point...don't just go to any therapist.

You might want to explore the possibility of taking anti androgens but not any form of estrogen.  That could help you block any further male development, but not grow boobs.

You may also find more help in the non-binary boards. (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,57.0.html)  The MTF board is filled with transwomen who tend more to fret about not having enough breast development.  :)

Quote from: katiej on September 29, 2014, 12:59:37 PM
It sounds to me like you could be non-binary.

Well, I used to identify as genderqueer but not a transwoman. But now I identify as a transwoman.

I can identify as a woman without wanting breasts, right?

Quote from: katiej on September 29, 2014, 12:59:37 PMYou might want to explore the possibility of taking anti androgens but not any form of estrogen.  That could help you block any further male development, but not grow boobs.

That sounds really nice. I was thinking of that, thank you!

Maybe not estrogen, but anti-androgens sound nice!

I haven't started HRT yet, but it would seem like anti-androgens might be a possibility for you. It doesn't actually help with the development of female features, but blocks the effects of testosterone. I haven't heard of anti-androgens helping with feminizing the face though, and usually you would need estrogen to gain any female traits.

I don't know, though. I'm unsure what your goal is. Not every girl wants huge breasts, but it seems like you may be wanting to be more androgynous or non-binary. If that is the case, then you really shouldn't be thinking about hormones, since that is going to drastically change your body. This sounds complicated and you should really talk to a professional to help you figure out the right path for you to take.

It is hard to say how large you may get from hrt.  How large are the women in your family, mother, sisters, cousins, aunts, etc, with about the frame size/built as you; that can give you an idea of what size you can expect to be someday with hormones.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 01:55:19 PM
Well, I used to identify as genderqueer but not a transwoman. But now I identify as a transwoman.

I can identify as a woman without wanting breasts, right?
That sounds really nice. I was thinking of that, thank you!

Maybe not estrogen, but anti-androgens sound nice!

*leans over fence to offer relevant anecdote*
Sorry if this makes me a downer, but I have a feeling it would be difficult to get a doctor who would allow this. I was told that I couldn't go on hormone blockers to stop estrogen because adults needed some form of hormone in their body to keep their bones healthy. Don't know how true this is though.

Quote from: Auroramarianna on September 29, 2014, 12:13:31 PMThere are women who are almost completely flat-chested

I would love to be a flat-chested woman! If I can pass as a woman and not be curvy, that would be great!

Flat-chested women look plenty like women to me.

It depends on your genetics and any possible IS conditions you may have, unknowingly. Also, age matters, though not to the degree some say. It's better to start early cause it's easier to erase traces of yourself and it's more time as a woman and it does have some benefits pertaining to HRT, particularly if you're 19 or under.

The truth is this: be careful what you wish for because you just might not get it. That was confusing. But seriously, you can start HRT and if you're like 50 percent of transwomen, you won't get above a B cup. There's other factors too. Like chest (or band) size. I'm 30.5 inches around. Sometimes 31 inches. So, small. Even for a GG. But I'm smaller than your average woman in everyway: hands, shoulders, balh, blah, blah. Feet are an 8, so not too big but could be smaller. Anyhoo, this caused the boobs I already had to explode to twice their size and I have fairly large breasts on a small frame. If they get bigger, I'll be one of those chicks who guys clock their head to see again and crash their car. I just want a bigger butt. It's fine but finer would be the finest.

Point is: you may develop well. But, you probably won't have huge boobs. You could bind and hide them or wear a sports bra. I had boobs long before transition and I'm 31. So, about 20 years. Now, they're hurting again so I guess they're growing and I'm starting IM Estrogen tomorrow, so I imagine I'm gonna get pretty busty. But I'm a rare case and have a disorder.

Quote from: troyboi on September 29, 2014, 02:11:58 PM
*leans over fence to offer relevant anecdote*
Sorry if this makes me a downer, but I have a feeling it would be difficult to get a doctor who would allow this. I was told that I couldn't go on hormone blockers to stop estrogen because adults needed some form of hormone in their body to keep their bones healthy. Don't know how true this is though.

This is true. You'll need either estrogen or testosterone otherwise osteoporosis is the likely outcome.

Oh, dear..
Well, I don't want to be unhealthy. :(

Maybe I could mess with my hormones a little bit.
If I only had a little more estrogen and a little less testosterone I wouldn't grow breasts.
That would be nice.

Tamoxifen, used in treating breast cancer, is an anti-estrogen and it would have the effect you desire.  There are also aromatase inhibitors such as Arimidex.  The enzyme aromatase converts testosterone to estradiol.  An aromatase inhibitor keeps this action to a minimum.

Now that I've answered you question, I've got to say that taking one drug concurrently with another which virtually eliminates the action of the first one is counterproductive to say the least.

With estrogen you don't get to pick and choose the effects.

Taking an anti-androgen for any length of time could lead to serious health problems.  Eliminating testosterone without replacing it with estrogen will age you prematurely and cause problems like osteoporosis.

Of course you could always grow the boobs and then have them surgically removed like FTM transsexuals do.

Randi

Quote from: Auroramarianna on September 29, 2014, 12:13:31 PM
I don't know what's your objective

Hi, I'm sorry I didn't answer this.

I want to be feminine in pretty much every way except having breasts and curves. I would like to have a more feminine face. And I'm getting all of my hair removed with laser surgery. And I wish I were shorter and had smaller feet and shoulders. I want to be more petite n' things. And I wear make-up to make my face look more feminine. It's sad, I can't do lotsa stuff about my height and my shoulders and my feet right now. But hopefully maybe someday there will be new amazing technology I can do that with. In Metal Gear, there are lotsa cyborg characters with cyborg spines n' things. I'm not a big fan of Metal Gear since I don't like violent military games, but I thought that was kind of neat. Maybe that will exist someday. It's be nice if there were some way for me to have a vagina some day, too.
But of course I can only do the things I can do today, so I've been removing my hair and I want facial feminization surgery when I can afford it.

Curves are pretty much the only way I don't want to be feminine or be a woman.

I look at breasts are being kind of like vaginas. You can have a vagina, but it doesn't necessarily mean you identify as a woman. It's not your reproductive organs that make you a man or a woman, it's what you identify as. The same is with breasts. You can have breasts and still be a man. And you can be flat chested and still be a woman. Plenty of men have breasts and plenty of women have flat-chests.

I really like Andreja Pejić. I'm a really really big fan of her and would like to look like her.

Well, I mean, not just like her. But she's beautiful and she inspires me!

Double post! Sorry!

Can I love your post a million times?

I am a flat chested gal and I agree completely. If I were to have a sexless body - flat chest and no genitals... Would that make me less of a girl?  Gosh no!

Gender is between the ears, sex is between the legs. Your genitals or lack there of should never define your gender identity.

Men, women, binary, non-binary all come in different shapes and sizes, we should all celebrate the diversity between us all because that's what makes us all so unique!

Having breasts or vagina or a lack of either shouldn't have any say on your identity as a woman. Anyone who says otherwise, regardless of fitting the standards of care for transitioning or not, you are who you are and you shouldn't have to suppress who you are to force yourself to fit the stereotypical unrealistic image of what society perceives a woman to be.

Much loves,

~Jay

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 02:33:23 PM
Maybe I could mess with my hormones a little bit.

I am sorry baby, but HRT is a serious thing and not something you "mess" with. What you define yourself as is unique to you alone, but HRT alters your bodies chemistry. Know what you want to do and become as educated as you can with regards to HRT.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 30, 2014, 12:57:05 AM
I am sorry baby, but HRT is a serious thing and not something you "mess" with. What you define yourself as is unique to you alone, but HRT alters your bodies chemistry. Know what you want to do and become as educated as you can with regards to HRT.

F-W

Hormones are serious stuff.  Find a good endo and work with them to achieve your objectives.  'Messing' with hormones and self medication is potentially dangerous.  Please take care.

Aisla

If you were genetically female you wouldn't have much of a say in how much or how little you curved. Why not just start HRT and go with it. Odds are unless you do many squats and really work hard at it your curves will never be dramatically different than they are now other than some tapering in at the waist if you're slimmer which won't even be noticeable for a year or so. You're not gonna wake up and go from 28/28/28 to 36/24/38 or something if that's your concern. Unfortunate reality is that HRT can only do so much.

I'm sure there are plenty of cis women who would prefer to be flat chested and not curvy. Then of course there are those who are not curvy and flat chested who wish that they did have bosoms and curves. The point I'm making is that cis or trans we rarely get the bodies we would ideally prefer - not without a lot of flexibility around what "ideal" actually is, or lots of work (be it surgical, physical exercise, dieting, etc). If you started HRT there's no guarantee you would or wouldn't grow breasts and curvy. Some trans women do some don't. Such is the genetic lottery involved in the process. You won't know until you know.

I think a good gender therapist may help you realize exactly what you may want.

But I seriously doubt you will find any doctor that will be able to ethically give you what you want. Self medication is an extremely bad idea. A therapist is where I would start. I would try to find myself and what I really want as an end result with all the pros and cons to me alone. If you find you want to be more feminine facially then there is always plastic surgery to feminize your face. But definitely find a good gender therapist to help you explore all your possibilities.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 10:01:36 AM
I don't want boobs or curves.

I was just like this, but once they started coming in, I couldn't get enough of it :>

Just have to accept that you will get all the changes, some more, some less, but you can't really choose what you get with HRT. I learned to love my boobs & new fat deposits.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on September 30, 2014, 07:44:52 AM
I was just like this, but once they started coming in, I couldn't get enough of it :>

Just have to accept that you will get all the changes, some more, some less, but you can't really choose what you get with HRT.

So true! And yes, being on HRT does seem to change a number of priorities and perceptions.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 02:53:13 PM

I want to be feminine in pretty much every way except having breasts and curves. I would like to have a more feminine face. And I'm getting all of my hair removed with laser surgery. And I wish I were shorter and had smaller feet and shoulders. I want to be more petite n' things. And I wear make-up to make my face look more feminine. It's sad, I can't do lotsa stuff about my height and my shoulders and my feet right now.

oh my GOD this is me in 2012.

I wanted to be more like the quintessential 'trap' seen in anime (hence my name) but that changed when everything came together in the big picture.

I would definitely give HRT a try. The feelings of the breast buds coming in is what changed my mind about boobs.

Your core problem is that we must have a sex hormone to ensure bone health or osteoporosis results. Period. No sex hormones will mean brittle thin bones which become a very bad health hazard.

So you have to choose. If you're going to allow testosterone, you are going to continue to masculinize. You don't get to choose. Same with estrogen. You don't get to choose. Either hormone will either cause continued development of masculinity or of femininity.

I'm concerned that you have this ideal in your head that you want to be based on externalities. That, to me, is a gigantic red warning flag here. We don't get to decide if we'll be pretty or not, if we'll have big or small breasts, how curvy our hips will or won't be. But natal females don't get to choose either.

The critical thing that gender therapy is about is us learning to accept ourselves as the gender in our heads, not the gender that society tried to impose on us after a quick visual inspection when we were born. How that gender ends up presenting itself is a journey and we have to learn to celebrate what we get as much as we can.

But an asexual look with no sex hormones? I cannot see any doctor agreeing to this because of the gigantic health risks involved. You'll end up like a 90 year old woman with almost no estrogen who breaks bones simply by bumping into things.

Your very first thing to do is find that therapist and come to grips with whomever you are internally. Once you get to that point you can begin to discuss where to go, but regardless of which path you choose, testosterone or estrogen, you won't get to pick and choose the outcomes. You need to begin accepting that now.

Yes, Fairy, from your descriptions of yourself you really sound like more of a non-binary person to me. You seem to simply want HRT to have less masculine features, but not to loose them all. HRT is a much bigger deal than that and shouldn't be considered a simple cosmetic aide.

I strongly suggest seeing a therapist about your whole thing. She/he should help you focus on the best path for you from here. You obviously need some help with that beyond the advice you'll get in this forum thread.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on September 30, 2014, 07:44:52 AM
I was just like this, but once they started coming in, I couldn't get enough of it :>

Just have to accept that you will get all the changes, some more, some less, but you can't really choose what you get with HRT. I learned to love my boobs & new fat deposits.

This. Between this and the other replies I've seen here,  it reminds me a lot of my own situation. I'm on deck since my therapist has given me info for an endo to begin HRT, but I'm still nervous. I worry similarly about changes and accepting them or whether I even WANT them, even though I really do want to start. I discovered part of my worries were also rooted in the past with some fears my mother negatively instilled in me at a young age. I had innocently asked her about what it was like to be a girl. She said I'd hate all the changes and would not want to be a girl at all. She was not very nice about it. It came back again when she found out about my gender identity issues when I was 19, and she attacked far more brutally on it at that time. It took me years to realize in therapy how badly she affected me with her words, and only recently have I grasped the extent of it. My anxiety problems just took it and ran away with it when I was younger. It was essentially a highly traumatic experience for me.

In addition to that realization, I had learned from conversations with my friends that are natal born female, is that many of them were also terrified of puberty growing up. They later "grew" into their changes that inevitably came. It brought a little different perspective to me that I am not alone; that puberty is one heck of a ride regardless of whether we are cisgendered or transgendered.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 30, 2014, 12:57:05 AM
I am sorry baby, but HRT is a serious thing and not something you "mess" with. What you define yourself as is unique to you alone, but HRT alters your bodies chemistry. Know what you want to do and become as educated as you can with regards to HRT.

Oh, that's disappointing.

I guess that means it wouldn't be a good idea to try HRT but then get off of it if I start to develop breasts?

Oh well, I have some time to think about it, I think. I would like to get facial feminization surgery, first.
Thank you everyone for helping!

I'm going to throw more cold water here too.

Facial feminization surgery won't help for long if you continue with testosterone and your face continues to masculinize. It may even end up looking totally unlike what you want or expect. FFS is usually done in concert with someone who is taking estrogen and suppressing testosterone to avoid further masculinization.

Look at pictures of any young guy at say, 20. Then look at a picture of that guy at 30, then 40, then 50. You'll see increasing masculinization of the face over time. How much varies but it's almost always there. It's one reason I will eventually do FFS myself. If I cold have transitioned at 18 or 19, I might never have needed it. Now I want it. I can get by without it but it will help a lot and some older transwoman absolutely need it.

I am still concerned that you have this external ideal that is driving you. I think you and a therapist need to address that first, before you make any decisions at all.

Quote from: LizMarie on October 01, 2014, 04:40:04 PM
I'm going to throw more cold water here too.

Facial feminization surgery won't help for long if you continue with testosterone and your face continues to masculinize. It may even end up looking totally unlike what you want or expect. FFS is usually done in concert with someone who is taking estrogen and suppressing testosterone to avoid further masculinization.

Look at pictures of any young guy at say, 20. Then look at a picture of that guy at 30, then 40, then 50. You'll see increasing masculinization of the face over time. How much varies but it's almost always there. It's one reason I will eventually do FFS myself. If I cold have transitioned at 18 or 19, I might never have needed it. Now I want it. I can get by without it but it will help a lot and some older transwoman absolutely need it.

I am still concerned that you have this external ideal that is driving you. I think you and a therapist need to address that first, before you make any decisions at all.

LizMarie has it right.. FFS is designed and intended for people on HRT. Your natural T levels will work to further the masculinisation of your face, leading, possibly, to regular repeat visits to the surgeon to fix the damage that age-related masculinisation takes place.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on October 01, 2014, 11:09:56 AM
Oh, that's disappointing.

I guess that means it wouldn't be a good idea to try HRT but then get off of it if I start to develop breasts?

Oh well, I have some time to think about it, I think. I would like to get facial feminization surgery, first.
Thank you everyone for helping!

There's no reason that you couldn't start HRT under a physician's supervision. My GP wrote me a prescription after telling me to wait a month and think about it. Every subsequent visit each month, before he increased my dose, he asked me if I would like to go ahead with the treatment. You can definitely try HRT to see if it's right for you. You won't get really any permanent changes until breasts really start to come in.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 02:53:13 PM
I really like Andreja Pejić. I'm a really really big fan of her and would like to look like her.

Hormones, sweety.. Hormones.. Despite her protests otherwise.. And I will continue to try and forget the appalling things she has said about trans women..

Quote from: kelly_aus on October 01, 2014, 06:14:53 PM
Hormones, sweety.. Hormones.. Despite her protests otherwise.. And I will continue to try and forget the appalling things she has said about trans women..

wasn't she not on HRT yet?

Quote from: Hideyoshi on October 01, 2014, 06:44:49 PM
wasn't she not on HRT yet?

She was on them for quite some time before she came out.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on September 30, 2014, 07:44:52 AM
I was just like this, but once they started coming in, I couldn't get enough of it :>

Just have to accept that you will get all the changes, some more, some less, but you can't really choose what you get with HRT. I learned to love my boobs & new fat deposits.

I was the same, prior to starting hrt I really did just want some of the changes from the hormones, but not all. I'm a picky gal. This was a bit more about 'how will I hide it whilst transitioning'. But I soon learned there were no options and what I get is what I get. But once the boobs and curves started I really changed my view, loving em now though

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 02:17:34 PM
I would love to be a flat-chested woman! If I can pass as a woman and not be curvy, that would be great!

Flat-chested women look plenty like women to me.

Have you talked to a flat chested woman about how she feels about not having breast? In my experience deep down they are very unhappy and insecure about their femininity... of course there are always exceptions to the rules

What ever rocks your boat girl, it is OK... we have here persons who have had SRS, are on HRT and have develop some breast, go by a female name, do not present as females and they consider themselves boys... go figure out

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 10:01:36 AM
But sometimes I wasn't sure, or I didn't feel that way. Like for instance, I don't want boobs or curves.

Well, if you open a random Vogue issue I'm sure you'll see plenty of women without boobs (well, almost flat-chested), without hips, with shoulders broeader than hips, etc etc.

There's a huge spectrum for models, from curvy glamour ones, to skinny fashion ones, to even muscle-built fitness girls. So, what's the point? There's plenty of androgynous girls who present them as girls and fell themselves like girls. Can't see the drama.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 10:01:36 AM
So I'm worried about HRT because I don't want to grow boobs.

Well, thats kind of a lottery. Depending on your genetics, on your dose/meds, on your hability to restrain your weight, etc etc.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on September 29, 2014, 10:01:36 AM
But I don't know much about this, what it's called and how good it will be at stopping me from being curvy

I you're past the age mark where bone development halts, then you can be sure that you're gonna get curvy as much as you're unable to control your diet. Being curvy is just having nice fat deposits on hips, butt, boobs, etc. How to solve? Lots of cardio, eating clean, etc etc etc, sure you already now. There's no much secret on runway models, just starving and working out.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰
I want to have a more feminine face. Well, I want to be more feminine in every way I can other than being curvy.

Well, HRT effects on face are super-duper limited. Maybe a little more overall fat on the face, masseter/moustache muscles loss, fair and nice-looking skin, and maybe some cheeks. Buuuut, this is just the best scenario, none of this changes (except maybe for the skin) are granted. Anyway, if dieting and exercising the right way then you could benefit from muscle loss, while the E will prevent future gains. Maybe this could give a more softer/feminine look to your shoulders.

Anyway, if you want my opinion, the most realistic expectation is having FFS to fix most face issues, going full HRT, and watching insanely your weight. Sure you gonna have at least minimal tissue growth, but if restraining your weight plus working out (and yes, this is very much hard work) this shouldn't be a problem.

Quote from: peky on October 01, 2014, 08:08:07 PM
Have you talked to a flat chested woman about how she feels about not having breast? In my experience deep down they are very unhappy and insecure about their femininity... of course there are always exceptions to the rules

What ever rocks your boat girl, it is OK... we have here persons who have had SRS, are on HRT and have develop some breast, go by a female name, do not present as females and they consider themselves boys... go figure out

Actually I think they are much more than exceptions. It just depends on influences received and roles followed. Vogue is full of A cups and completely flat-chested gals. In many "high class" circles curvy figures are viewed as tasteless (and I talk about "hour glasses" not about plainly overweighted people).

Now... Gossiping time!

Quote from: kelly_aus on October 01, 2014, 06:14:53 PM
Hormones, sweety.. Hormones.. Despite her protests otherwise.. And I will continue to try and forget the appalling things she has said about trans women..

What appalling things? Wasn't aware of this, well, in fact I'm kinda disconnected from the world lately.

Quote from: katiej on September 29, 2014, 12:59:37 PM
You might want to explore the possibility of taking anti androgens but not any form of estrogen.  That could help you block any further male development, but not grow boobs.

You must have either testosterone or estrogen to maintain your bone density.  Antiandrogens ("T-blockers") will reduce Testosterone and help feminize your body (less muscle mass, etc.), but this alone will cause a loss of bone density just as in post menopausel women (low T & low E).  You must have some level of either to maintain bone density.

Jen

Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 30, 2014, 12:53:56 AM
Can I love your post a million times?

I am a flat chested gal and I agree completely. If I were to have a sexless body - flat chest and no genitals... Would that make me less of a girl?  Gosh no!

Gender is between the ears, sex is between the legs. Your genitals or lack there of should never define your gender identity.

Men, women, binary, non-binary all come in different shapes and sizes, we should all celebrate the diversity between us all because that's what makes us all so unique!

Having breasts or vagina or a lack of either shouldn't have any say on your identity as a woman. Anyone who says otherwise, regardless of fitting the standards of care for transitioning or not, you are who you are and you shouldn't have to suppress who you are to force yourself to fit the stereotypical unrealistic image of what society perceives a woman to be.

Much loves,

~Jay

Awwww, thank you so much!

❤

Quote from: Aisla on September 30, 2014, 05:19:46 AMFind a good endo and work with them to achieve your objectives.  'Messing' with hormones and self medication is potentially dangerous.  Please take care.

You're right. There's lotsa people I need to talk to. I'll talk to a good endocrinologist, thank you!

There are so many people to respond to. Thank you, everyone! I'd love to get back to everyone! I'll try to but it might take a little while. Thank you thank you so much everyone!

Quote from: Wednesday on October 01, 2014, 08:59:43 PM
Well, if you open a random Vogue issue I'm sure you'll see plenty of women without boobs (well, almost flat-chested), without hips, with shoulders broeader than hips, etc etc.

Actually I think they are much more than exceptions. It just depends on influences received and roles followed. Vogue is full of A cups and completely flat-chested gals. In many "high class" circles curvy figures are viewed as tasteless (and I talk about "hour glasses" not about plainly overweighted people).

Quiet the contrary my friend,  the breast size of the typical American woman has increases From 34B to 34DD in the last 20 Years, a survey says

Quotehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/bra-size-survey_n_3645267.html

What you see in vogue does not represent reality by a long shot!

Quote from: Huffington Post
Weight gain and breast implants have played a role in the increase

Anyway, I know that Vogue can be anything but a realistic sample. After all, most models live their lives starving to fit the clothes. But the point is they can be regarded as beauty standards for a lot of population, even if this population is not slim and skinny. The fact northamerican women (and men) are gaining sheds of weight is a well-known health issue, and personally I don't think these women are getting overweight to just have DD cups.

Will be interesting to point out how much the increase is due to surgery and how much due to overweight, my friend.

Quote from: LizMarie on September 30, 2014, 09:18:50 AM
Your core problem is that we must have a sex hormone to ensure bone health or osteoporosis results. Period. No sex hormones will mean brittle thin bones which become a very bad health hazard.

So you have to choose. If you're going to allow testosterone, you are going to continue to masculinize. You don't get to choose. Same with estrogen. You don't get to choose. Either hormone will either cause continued development of masculinity or of femininity.

Oh, well I want to be healthy...

If I had to choose, I would definitely rather have more estrogen than testosterone. I don't like the idea of having lots of testosterone. And having estrogen sounds really nice.
I'm just really scared of having breasts. I think I would be very uncomfortable having breasts. So if I started developing breasts, I would want to get a breast reduction surgery ASAP.

Quote from: LizMarie on September 30, 2014, 09:18:50 AMBut an asexual look with no sex hormones? I cannot see any doctor agreeing to this because of the gigantic health risks involved. You'll end up like a 90 year old woman with almost no estrogen who breaks bones simply by bumping into things.

I'm not sure I want an asexual look. Maybe a little bit? I really just want to be cute and feminine, but I don't want breasts or wide hips.

So... I would like to be a flat chested woman.

if I  may ask what actually is it you don't like about  breasts, personally I think they're beautiful on me or any other woman. I would feel totally lost with out them.

Being asexual is a sexual orientation, not an appearance or a "look" one can get. I think the word you may be looking for is androgynous?

Having no hormones in one's body is a recipe for disaster, I agree with others about that. However, I do think it could be possible to have both estrogen & testosterone in one's system. Cis-girls have testosterone in their bodies as well as estrogen, just the estrogen is much higher than the testosterone. How do I know this? I had my blood tested for hormone levels and my T levels were lower than average for a biological girl. There is also progesterone as well, I believe but that is more involved with periods and pregnancy (correct me if I'm wrong!)

On estrogen, breasts will not grow overnight. It is a slow growth over many months but experiences are different for everyone. Some grow breasts more quickly than others. I would assume if you were on a low dose of estrogen, that the breast growth would be slower than average...? On estrogen, they do not typically grow very large (A to B cup if I remember correctly) which is why transwomen may opt to get breast augmentation to get the breast size they desire. The nifty thing with having small breasts such as these is that they can be easy to conceal with a wireless sports bra if you would like to look androgynous. Katherine Moennig (otherwise known as Shane from The L Word) is one example of a cis-woman with such small breasts that she may as well be flat-chested. She is able to pull off the androgynous look  (http://31.media.tumblr.com/6041334db934e146fa6f5e0724038139/tumblr_mles53Aepg1rfw12go1_500.gif)very well as a result.

You could always go on estrogen and have top surgery (that FTMs get to reconstruct breasts into a flat-chested appearance)... breast reduction, I don't think they would reduce them until they are flat. I have tried to ask many doctors in my area but they always say that they "don't do that kind of surgery" ... it appears they will only reduce large breasts to a more comfortable size, not necessarily a small size to a flat appearance. That is my experience in my city though, it may be different elsewhere.

Stephaniec, I know you were asking ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ but I hope you do not mind me answering as well...! I do not view anything wrong with having breasts, I actually love breasts, breasts are beautiful... on other people that is! Even though I identify as a female (although more towards feminine than female), I find the idea of having breasts, larger than they should be on my body triggers dysphoria. It does not match my self-image of myself which is a flat-chested girl, therefore my body is not aligned with my mind. Having breasts would get in the way of things and I am pretty happy just to have a chest that mirrors my inner self. I would love to touch my flat chest and not have to feel excess flesh or breasts that should not be there. Does desiring a flat chest make me less of a woman and does desiring breasts reaffirm one's identity of being a woman? It shouldn't because in the end, we are all beautiful gals, just with different preferences on how we look and feel most comfortable as women.  :)

~Jay ♡

I'm sorry but there is not HRT to become genderless or kinda non binary I guess (I hope I'm not hurting anyone's feeling). Well you might be able to take HRT and then do the top surgery of the FTMs guys... Still I'm like super perplexed like why not? Breast are ::) but to everyone's what they want. Then if you wear a binder while on hrt that might hinder breast growth too, but for the hips if you are lucky enough to get any there is nothing you can do pretty much xD and with a low dose of hrt you might not get a lot of facial changes... It's best if you just save up for some sort of FFS lol like really that's the best option.

Quote from: Emily29 on October 03, 2014, 11:42:43 PM
I'm sorry but there is not HRT to become genderless or kinda non binary I guess (I hope I'm not hurting anyone's feeling).

I respectfully disagree. You haven't hurt anyone's feelings so please do not worry. :)

I am born biologically female, have been on testosterone for four years. After much self-discovery, I realized I do not identify as a man as previously thought. I desire a sexless body. My aim is to get a flat chest, continue receiving voice therapy and practice raising my voice to a more gender neutral range, I will remove the uterus so I do not get any more periods, rendering me sterile then I will go off T and let the estrogen feminize my body as I do not wish to be on T for the rest of my life. I will not be a woman in society's eyes, despite returning to my body's original state of supplying estrogen but nor will I be seen as a man either. I will be successfully in-between.

Low-dose HRT exists for non-binary individuals allowing them to reach that in-between state that settles their dysphoria. It is a careful balance but low-dose HRT can be immensely beneficial in helping genderless or non-binary folks diminish dysphoria and achieve an androgynous state.     

Quote from: LizMarie on October 01, 2014, 04:40:04 PM
I'm going to throw more cold water here too.

Facial feminization surgery won't help for long if you continue with testosterone and your face continues to masculinize. It may even end up looking totally unlike what you want or expect. FFS is usually done in concert with someone who is taking estrogen and suppressing testosterone to avoid further masculinization.

:(

So I can't do facial feminization surgery before HRT? Ohhhhhh, oh no. I really want a feminine face. I don't want to lose it.
It sounds like testosterone wants to hurt me just as much as estrogen.

My flat chest and my petite hips are one of the things I'm most happy about and proud of. I don't want to lose them.
But I really really want a feminine face more than almost anything.

I guess I may have to have a balance. Maybe I should try some hormones like a small amount of Estrodial, and then stop or get breast reduction surgery if I started developing breasts too much?

Would that be okay?

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on October 05, 2014, 05:13:58 PM
I guess I may have to have a balance. Maybe I should try some hormones like a small amount of Estrodial, and then stop or get breast reduction surgery if I started developing breasts too much?

Would that be okay?

Uh, no. How about trying a Therapist first. HRT is not something to play with or experiment with. Please see a Therapist as soon as possible.

All right, I'll try to see a therapist. Thank you. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on October 05, 2014, 05:17:17 PM
Uh, no. How about trying a Therapist first. HRT is not something to play with or experiment with. Please see a Therapist as soon as possible.

This^^___^^ is the best advice I've read here yet. Jess is very right. Hrt meds are nothing to play around with and can cause serious chronic medical problems if taken improperly. I've been reading this thread for a lil while now trying to figure out how best to respond. While I won't judge anyone, your desired outcome is somewhat unique and to achieve it properly and safely, you will need good medical care. And a therapist should be a priority to determine the best possible treatment for you. We're only looking out for your best interests hun.

Ally :icon_flower:

well from personal experience, from seeing other women at the gym, those that do alot of upper body workouts, tend to have tighter and flater chests, all while keeping some sort of breast and nipples, this might be what you wanted. but ymmv

You could just take testosterone blockers. That would give you a more feminine face and slimmer shoulders. But depending on your genetics you might still end up with breasts, but not quite as much as if you were on estrogen. But taking only blockers is definitely an option you only want to persue under a doctor's care, since there are health risks associated with having lower overall hormone levels.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on October 06, 2014, 07:51:53 PM
well from personal experience, from seeing other women at the gym, those that do alot of upper body workouts, tend to have tighter and flater chests, all while keeping some sort of breast and nipples, this might be what you wanted. but ymmv

First do therapy.  And please don't self medicate.  But Shawn's brings up a really good point.  Women tend to have very little upstairs when they work out a lot and have a low percentage of body fat.  Female body builders do wear a two-piece bikini, but for a lot of them the top piece isn't totally necessary.

Quote from: Lyric on September 30, 2014, 11:14:12 AM
Yes, Fairy, from your descriptions of yourself you really sound like more of a non-binary person to me.

W-Why? Because I don't want to have breasts?

I-I mean, I used to identify as an androgyne but I found out what really makes me happy is being a woman.
I prefer female pronouns, and I just want to be more feminine, not just androgynous. That's what I always wanted and that's how I feel inside.

... I... I just don't want breasts. I want to be feminine in every other way.

lots of ciswomen would prefer to have smaller breasts and seek methods to achieve this, so breast or no, doesnt make you any less of a girl

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on October 07, 2014, 10:19:27 PM
W-Why? Because I don't want to have breasts?

I-I mean, I used to identify as an androgyne but I found out what really makes me happy is being a woman.
I prefer female pronouns, and I just want to be more feminine, not just androgynous. That's what I always wanted and that's how I feel inside.

... I... I just don't want breasts. I want to be feminine in every other way.

*hugs you tightly*

Sweetheart, don't you EVER let anyone tell you what your identity should be. You most certainly can be and are every bit as much a woman as any other without wanting breasts. I know it's very hurtful when people don't respect your identity and try to force their own ideas onto you. It's happened to me, too. Please cheer up, okay, sis? I see you as a woman, and I know plenty of others do, too. *smiles warmly*

Quote from: Pikachu on October 07, 2014, 10:48:24 PM
*hugs you tightly*

Sweetheart, don't you EVER let anyone tell you what your identity should be. You most certainly can be and are every bit as much a woman as any other without wanting breasts. I know it's very hurtful when people don't respect your identity and try to force their own ideas onto you. It's happened to me, too. Please cheer up, okay, sis? I see you as a woman, and I know plenty of others do, too. *smiles warmly*

What Pikachu said! Please don't let others get you down...!

I feel this stereotypical image of a woman who must have breasts in order to be accepted as female is damaging at most. I have a cis-female best friend who is flat-chested and she isn't treated any differently, her image of being a woman isn't threatened, questioned or invalidated, so why should yours?

It's okay if you do not want breasts, some gals develop breasts while other's don't

That is to say that you might or might not develop breasts, it is really up to you and your Dr. to decide what path to take regarding HRT

Personally I am rather happily surprised by the C-Cups I've developed but wish I could have developed a more feminine face, waistline and rear-end

It would be nice to be referred to as a female 100% of the time rather than just half or more of the time, but I guess I can't have everything my way

Wishing you all the best to decide which direction you'd like to take with your transition

i think you can identify with whatever you want. I don't want huge breast neither... I mean I want breasts but I won't get plastic surgery to get huge boobs if they come I'm fine if they don't even better. I don't think you need breast in order to be a woman.

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on October 07, 2014, 10:19:27 PM
W-Why? Because I don't want to have breasts?

I-I mean, I used to identify as an androgyne but I found out what really makes me happy is being a woman.
I prefer female pronouns, and I just want to be more feminine, not just androgynous. That's what I always wanted and that's how I feel inside.

... I... I just don't want breasts. I want to be feminine in every other way.

Dont let someone on a website diagnose you. Nobody knows how you feel inside except you, and anyways no one here is an expert in these matters.

Honestly, I think you shouldn't worry about what kind of labels to assign to yourself. You want to live as and identify as a female but you don't want breasts--who cares what it's called? In my opinion all these labels for people's gender identity are useless at best, and harmful at worst because it leads to people judging others and themselves on what makes a person "really trans".

Quote from: ✰Fairy~Wishes✰ on October 07, 2014, 10:19:27 PM
W-Why? Because I don't want to have breasts?

I-I mean, I used to identify as an androgyne but I found out what really makes me happy is being a woman.
I prefer female pronouns, and I just want to be more feminine, not just androgynous. That's what I always wanted and that's how I feel inside.

... I... I just don't want breasts. I want to be feminine in every other way.

Hnnng I just wanna hug you. Again, I felt very similar to you before I started hrt. I'd definitely get with a physician and at least start hormones. Give it a month and see how you feel. If you don't like the little amount of chest changes you get in that time, you can always stop.

The important thing to do is go through a doctor for hormones and get blood tests regularly. I didn't even have any therapy before I started. I knew the risks and wanted to try it. Hrt CAN be dangerous if you don't monitor your health or if you self medicate.