Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Curious what our social presentations are as opposed to what it would be with no social pressures.

Thoughts dear ones?

,Nails out hair growing...
Satinjoy

with no social pressure, i would not censor my speech.
i think that is the only part of my social presentation which is restricted.
i'm not thinking of swearing more, that is unnecessary.
it's just that there are things i can't say or talk about simply because i am seen as a woman.
it confuses people, and can make them turn away from me.

of course, other things would be different too if transitioning were easier.
but i do present my own way within the limitations of my own body.

If there was absolutely no social pressure or judgment whatsoever, I would present as more feminine. I would grow my hair long again while shaving it from much of the rest of my body. I'd go for a more androgynous or feminine wardrobe and experiment with makeup/cosmetics. I'd probably ask people to switch pronouns, or actually, in this ideal world, I wouldn't even need to ask.  I am sure that my speech mannerisms, voice tone, level of expression, hand gestures, etc. would be different. Last, I would consider hrt.

At the moment, I present as 100% male/masculine.

With no social pressure, no judgement, and no "it's not halloween" comment? I'd dress however I want whenever I want. If I had no dysphoria to boot, it would be even better.
I'd dress like a pirate. I'd dress in patchwork, piebald rags like the vocalist from In Extremo. I'd wear long skirts because long skirts are hot as f*** on guys in an "I want to look like that" way not to mention comfy. And somedays I'd still wear the jeans and band shirts I've been wearing lately.

the devil king wears skirts, edge. i'd love to see those things on more guys.
i've forced two guys into a halloween black widow dress. one looked very feminine, and kind of terrified and uncomfortable in it (fear of not being man enough).
the other was my brother, a guy who sees no reason to fear female clothing because there's no way they make him into a woman. looked great in it, but nothing other than manly. even with the long curly hair.

come to think of it... if there was no pressure at all, i'd be wearing so much more than i am now. or less, if i could get rid of boobs.
pirate is one thing, but about about vampire, corpse, or pan?
or just a demon king. something heavy metal at least.

I'd wear long skirts too, something I've always wanted to do. Other than that I am myself full time presenting androgynously as I wish to for the day, sometimes more and sometimes less.

Quote from: Taka on October 19, 2014, 01:44:59 PM
pirate is one thing, but about about vampire, corpse, or pan?
or just a demon king. something heavy metal at least.

Not sure what you mean by pan or demon king, not that interested in corpse, and vampire depends on the vampire. I may go back to liking eighteenth century aristocratic type clothing, but for now, it's a little too fancy for me.
I like a more rough, feral, trollish look. Or pirate.

Quote from: Taka on October 19, 2014, 01:44:59 PM
the devil king wears skirts, edge. i'd love to see those things on more guys.
i've forced two guys into a halloween black widow dress. one looked very feminine, and kind of terrified and uncomfortable in it (fear of not being man enough).
the other was my brother, a guy who sees no reason to fear female clothing because there's no way they make him into a woman. looked great in it, but nothing other than manly. even with the long curly hair.

The guys I knew who wore skirts didn't look feminine. They just looked hot. My favourite was probably the guy with the dreads and the long, patchwork skirt. That was cool.

pan is pan. kind of a god.
a demon king looks something like demon kogure. you'll find him and seikima-ii on youtube.
corpse is just something i'd like to try. looking dead, not rotten.
any vampire is good, as long as it doesn't glitter.

the guys i've seen who wear skirts of their own free will all looked like men. not feminine, unless they intended it so.
i hope you'll get to a point where you're comfortable in skirts. they're awesome on guys. some guys even look better in them.

Quote from: Taka on October 19, 2014, 02:12:30 PM
pan is pan. kind of a god.

The greek dude? I don't think I have the legs to pull that off.

i don't either, but with no prejudice, i'd still try.

Quote from: Taka on October 19, 2014, 02:12:30 PM
the guys i've seen who wear skirts of their own free will all looked like men. not feminine, unless they intended it so.
i hope you'll get to a point where you're comfortable in skirts. they're awesome on guys. some guys even look better in them.

Skirts is where I veered off the path of the One True Manliness* a decade ago, which eventually led me to the Unicorn Forest.  (Try googling "contra dance men in skirts" sometime.)  I now only wear pants ("trousers" for the UKers) when I have to.

To answer the question in the OP:

I think I would wear "girlier" clothes -- more ruffles, lace, bows, etc., maybe try adapting Lolita or "little girl" fashions to fit my shape.  I'm working on it, but the fear of being cast into outer darkness for being just too weird holds me back more than anything else.

I might work on making my body look a little more feminine: shaving or removing body hair (electrolysis of neck and facial hair is already on my to-do list.)  Actually, I might be more willing to try some M-to-F body modifications if I weren't afraid of looking like a failed attempt at looking female, since I don't like seeing the more masculine aspects of my body.

I also wish I felt free to say how I feel and to touch people more.  I'm very conscious that because I'm seen as male, a lot of the things I feel would, if expressed, be taken as more intrusive or threatening than if I weren't seen as male.

I wish I felt okay with expressing vulnerability or neediness.  Or just wanting some attention.  ("He just wants attention" was a popular put-down in my family.)

There's also how I interact with men.  I wish I could feel free to simply be myself.  Unfortunately, the way men tend to interact with men triggers my "I'm going to get hassled for not being sufficiently manly" defenses.  This mainly means reining in any behavior which could be interpreted as weak or vulnerable and getting myself psychologically ready to defend myself from attack.

[Edited to add:]
* -- Actually, what happened a decade ago was that I stopped trying to pass as male.

I think I hinted at this in a topic this morning in another forum here.

If I could be anything, with no social pressures, and could pull it off physically and mentaly, I'd be perfectly androgynous, and be able to pass as any gender I felt like.. I sense myself very much lately feeling that way, sliding back and forth between feeling more male, and feeling female..

That is the source of the dysphorea I feel sometimes, my body not being able to follow my gender moods back and forth, and I have no idea how to solve that dilemma.???

i feel that same problem, mark. a short curvy body doesn't pass well as male.

if physically possible, i'd present as everything thinkable (and some unthinkables for many or most).
not at the same time though, that would be a bit much.

if presentation were respected, i'd be doing that already.
but people don't look at my presentation to determine my gender at any given time.
they take it from their memory, and believe it will be true every single day of my life.
doesn't make sense to me, but that's just how people are.

I pretty much do my own thing and then pull it off with a fair old dose of skate punk attitude.

Seriously contemplating going all tank girl with my hair, but it would mean losing the locs.

Quote from: Taka on October 19, 2014, 03:53:36 PM
if presentation were respected, i'd be doing that already.
but people don't look at my presentation to determine my gender at any given time.
they take it from their memory, and believe it will be true every single day of my life.
doesn't make sense to me, but that's just how people are.

Yeah, I get that sometomes to..

Our genders seem more flexible than most peoples minds.!

Thanks Taka.

I'm exactly who I want to be.

I am doing more than I have and less than I want to do or will do.

I rushed into ffs and transition level hrt which required a considerable rethink and surgery  (bilateral breast reduction) when I realised that I was non binary.  I won't do this again.  Each step is conscious.  I now test my footing before I transfer my weight.  Beard removal, tick.  Longer hair, tick.  Manicured nails, tick. Andro brows, tick. More andro casual clothing, tick.  Experimenting with tinted lashes, brows and neutral makeup, tick.

At the same time I can't help wondering why I need to be concerned with my presentation.  Why isn't nuance sufficient for me, why must I really go to an extreme to be seen to be or recognised as, non binary/ andro when a female presenting andro would dress identically to me without going to an extreme?

Complicating this, is a growing sense that I feel most authentic when I respond to different folk and to different situations in different ways ie my identity and expression are situationally influenced or dependent.  This sounds a lot like gender fluid.  If this is the case then I suspect that I will over time wish to present socially as I feel is appropriate to my mood and to my situation, masculine, andro, queer and feminine.  Sounds like I may need to need to extend my wardrobe ;)

Safe travels

Aisla

I'd burn give away my suits and get away with doing laundry less often (because dresses).  If we can generalize freedom beyond just non-binary, I'd also wear shorts (instead of pants) a lot more, because I have a much easier time acquiring comfortable good-fitting cargo shorts than cargo pants.  I'd also start racking up a more substantial dry-cleaning bill, but it'd be worth it.

I dress, and live pretty much as I wish to.  Today I went to a drag show.  I looked better than the queens.  >:-)  Yesterday I was wearing rubber boots, jeans and a sweat shirt for working in the garden.  At work I wear jeans, sport shirts, skirts and tops, leggings and boots. Drag and drab.  With me, nobody seems to care much.  I like that.   ^-^

My body is pretty feminine,  my face not so much.  But I seem to be ambiguous enough that I pass either way when I want to.  I just recently discovered this.  It surprised the hell out of me.  I use the women's rest room though.  I'm actually a little afraid of the men's side and isn't that odd?

Julie

   I pretty much echo Julie's thoughts. Dress feminine all the time except when working ( see avatar) even then my nails are painted , and I am wearing comfortable under garments.Have not been in a male restroom since coming out (can't stand pee on the seat ) the girls room is so much cleaner. My two sides are at peace and happy with each other which moved me to NB which is great.I am able to present as a feminine male or as I always do an ugly female.Freedom is wonderful and I love it, the ability to be who I always was, an exhilarating unbelievable feeling  saying I am happy is totally and understatement.   Patty

I wear grunge t-shirts, leather pants and black boots, while I am comfortable wearing this...

If I had the freedom to, I would wear tutus, stockings, knee high converse boots and a grunge-tshirt with dark and sometimes bright colors, kandi bracelets, etc. If I felt desired to, I would wear my cat ears and cat tail on the days I feel excited and free to be myself without caring what others think.

I cannot wear "feminine" clothing as my family believe I am transitioning to male, I cannot handle them questioning my identity... they already question the validity of my male identity just because of the fact I buy and enjoy wearing make-up in the privacy of my own room (for selfies and practice mainly - I would not wear make-up outside of my bedroom or the house until I have trained my gender-neutral voice.). It is upsetting because I do not wish to conform to the "stereotype" of what a "man" is.

Seriously, gender roles and stereotypes are awful. They stifle one's individuality and unique nature to be who they are. If everyone was a carbon-copy of a gender stereotype/role and that's all they are, it would be a very boring world. 

If only...

You know my presentations, home with others is gq maxed, a satin nightshirt over lingerie, the bottom of that somewhat revealed, the top now revealed an inch down revealing the lace, the breasts are obvious, but the head is unmodified for the wife's sake.  How she handles such a startling presentation I do not know.

On forum, its all girl.

At work, its nails and maybe some breast, the rest is male attire, and a scarf usually is on that flows over the boobs and hides them.  Usually a vest to cover, or a sportcoat.

But in a perfect world...

I would be at work in thigh high or knee high heeled boots,  a long sweater tied at the waist, my shirt unbuttoned to show the cami under it, the shirt tight across the top, maybe one that laces instead of buttons.  The jeans would be tight.

And on odd days, I would let Satinjoy out, hair on, slinky 70's dress up, like my avatar.  In a perfect world.

But is isn't perfect, not for me, and today, that is cutting me to the core.

Looks like I will be calling a couple of my forum friends today and leaning hard on them again to get through it.

Its one of those days I want to get in the car and drive into nowhere and start over, but the warm embrace of my wife trumps it all.

A little down this morning, sorry.

I think I'll push it  a little today, I have the boots....

Satinjoy

This (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2423) is how I might sometimes present as, if there were no social constraints.  (And if I had a different body :( )

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fquestionablecontent.net%2Fcomics%2F2423.png&hash=e879c9c87ac111fc162350bc88bd35a224746146) (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2423)

(For extra credit, identify the trans person in the picture.)

The red head

The tall brunette! Been reading the tall girl thread which influenced my guess.

Quote from: EchelonHunt on October 19, 2014, 11:50:56 PM

Seriously, gender roles and stereotypes are awful. They stifle one's individuality and unique nature to be who they are. If everyone was a carbon-copy of a gender stereotype/role and that's all they are, it would be a very boring world.

Let me offer my amen to that!  :)

You all just got me to wear knee high boots to work...but I don't have the balls to tuck my pants into them yet.

Really, sometimes I feel like a total fake in here, due to lack of courage to push the social norms.

Been hurting me a lot lately, this thought.

Satinjoy

Quote from: Satinjoy on October 20, 2014, 11:51:51 AM
Really, sometimes I feel like a total fake in here, due to lack of courage to push the social norms.

Sorry you feel that way.  I don't think you're a fake (for what my opinion is worth.)  I don't think it's lack of courage that is holding you back.  It's that you are subject to much narrower and harder limits than many of us here.  You've evaluated the cost (to you and to those you care about)  of going further along whatever path it is that you feel would be most honest for you, and decided that it's too much.

It's not lack of courage that I see.  It's wisdom and the ability to make hard choices.

Quote from: Asche on October 20, 2014, 03:10:37 PM
Sorry you feel that way.  I don't think you're a fake (for what my opinion is worth.)  I don't think it's lack of courage that is holding you back.  It's that you are subject to much narrower and harder limits than many of us here.  You've evaluated the cost (to you and to those you care about)  of going further along whatever path it is that you feel would be most honest for you, and decided that it's too much.

It's not lack of courage that I see.  It's wisdom and the ability to make hard choices.

SJ

Will call tomorrow.  Asche sees your nobility for what it is.  Be kind to yourself.

Aisla

Satin Joy,

There is nothing fake or inauthentic about you.  You have the astonishing courage to accept life as it is rather than how you would prefer it to be.  You have been willing for as long as I've known you to put the comfort of the woman you love before your desires and sometimes even before your health.
Yes you are non-binary, but I think in kind of the same way I am except that I was willing to dash it all to be seen as a woman and live as I choose.  That you are strong enough to pay the price, to balance your needs below another's is being human at its best.  It is compassionate and I am delighted to be your friend.  You know how to reach me if you need to sweetie.

And since I am slow to post. Amen to Asche's and Aisla's observations as well

Love,
Julie

The power of our forum.

These last three posts shattered my depression like glass.

Thank you deeply.

Blessings

Nails out head up

Satinjoy

Quote from: Satinjoy on October 20, 2014, 11:51:51 AM
Really, sometimes I feel like a total fake in here, due to lack of courage to push the social norms.

Yeah, but not everyone has the desire to do that. Some people just like to fade into the scenery. That's pretty much what I like to do. I've always been like that. As long as you are doing what YOU want to do. You are being authentic.

Ok I got fed up with hiding so much and wore me knee high, flat healed women'ss boots outside my jeans to work today.

Comments were odd, one was where is the rest of the cowboy outfit, but the other from a transphobic manager was ..what's with the garden boots.   I forget what I said but his next comment was. ...there are no laces...

He was ridiculing.

Without thinking my response to the transphobic boss was

Yes dear, they do not.

Silence in the office, the man headed.to the copy machine in a hurry.

Score one for finally standing up to someone.

Still quite wild here, hope it's healthy and real, my estrogen injection is tonight and the moods are much more stable now.

So, this moment is yours to share, they won't take me on like that again it got real quiet on the ....dear...when my mask came off.

Wow.  Satinjoy came out and said something, that was her voice.  My voice, but the part only transpeople see, she just spoke right up, from my core.

Satinjoy

i was talking with some colleagues about imported wives at work one day. there are a whole lot of russian and thai women in the area, and hopefully most relationships are true love rather than convenience.
so i happened to mention how someone had recommended slavic women to me.
just to gloss over a little, i explained how there are no girls on the internet...
there are no out lesbians in the area, and even they probably wouldn't consider looking for a wife outside the country.

Quote from: Satinjoy on October 23, 2014, 11:54:04 AM
Ok I got fed up with hiding so much and wore me knee high, flat healed women'ss boots outside my jeans to work today.

Comments were odd, one was where is the rest of the cowboy outfit, but the other from a transphobic manager was ..what's with the garden boots.   I forget what I said but his next comment was. ...there are no laces...

He was ridiculing.

Without thinking my response to the transphobic boss was

Yes dear, they do not.

Silence in the office, the man headed.to the copy machine in a hurry.

Score one for finally standing up to someone.

Still quite wild here, hope it's healthy and real, my estrogen injection is tonight and the moods are much more stable now.

So, this moment is yours to share, they won't take me on like that again it got real quiet on the ....dear...when my mask came off.

Wow.  Satinjoy came out and said something, that was her voice.  My voice, but the part only transpeople see, she just spoke right up, from my core.

Satinjoy

A really big atta girl, kudos!
:icon_bunch: :eusa_clap:

Thanks Shantel.    Bought a long cashiers sweater with a waste tie and wore it to aa.  Someone said I looked beautiful, it may or may not have been to mock, but I owned it and said thank you.  They seemed very uncomfortable.

Ahhh, genderqueer.  One of the wilder ways to go.

Thanks dear for your support.  I need it.

Blessings

Satinjoy

Casmere.  Not cashier.  Phones....

I'm proud of you, SJ. I've tied myself in unholy knots trying to work up the courage to present in certain ways. It's hard as hell out there.

In a perfect world, I'd be doing a lot of what I'm already doing. Jeans. Docs. Those ribbed tank tops and flannel. Dark wash hoodies. Denim shirts. I'm lucky that my sense of style is comfortably masculine-androgynous. But I'd pack every day, every goddamn friggin day, and I wouldn't care who noticed. Because my pants would be tight (not too tight, not leggings, but a slim cut), not that awful trans-boy-on-raiding-his-daddy's-closet style I've got going on right now out of pure defense. I am so sick of my jeans not fitting right. They're too big! Any smaller and they're "woman's pants;" any smaller and I feel like a freak or a fraud. Too visibly in-between. Damn it, though, I am sick of cinched belts and ugly cuffs.

Quote from: captains on October 25, 2014, 11:42:59 PM
Wife-beaters

Um, can we find another word for whatever this is?  The phrase is triggering my visualization centers into sending me some pretty horrific images.

Quote from: captains on October 25, 2014, 11:42:59 PMDamn it, though, I am sick of cinched belts and ugly cuffs.

FWIW,  I'm MAAB and that's how all of my pants came out looking when I was in my teens and twenties.  It wasn't until I started developing male-pattern beer-gut that that changed.  Of course, I've always felt my body looked ugly no matter how my pants fit, so it never occurred to me to try to make them fit any differently.  Not sure if that makes you feel better or worse.

My apologies, Asche! I've edited the post. That term is common parlance around me, but it is definitely messed up (also very classist?) and something I need to drop from my vocabulary. I'm talking about those cheap, usually white, thin ribbed tank tops that come in a six pack. Around me they carry the connotation of working class masculinity, which very unfortunately, is also associated with violent chauvinism.

I hadn't thought too carefully about the term until now, but it is quite upsetting, and in retrospect, it perpetuates some pretty vile ideas.