Susan's Place Transgender Resources

i've only recently admitted to myself about being trans after years of identifying as female, and a pretty hard core feminist. my views on gender equality haven't changed in the slightest, but i'm worried about coming out to the communities that i'm a part of, mostly because i don't want my gender to affect how things are within them. for example, there's been quite a few male celebrities taking pictures in 'this is what a feminist looks like' tshirts, and i've seen backlash from that about how men shouldn't identify as feminists or be the ones talking about these things because it takes it away from women, which i guess does make sense. there was also a few tumblr threads i read a little while ago saying how trans men are often being sexist by trying to weigh in on feminism because they've experienced transphobia and sexism themselves, when really they shouldn't. i don't know, i'm mostly curious what other guys on this site think about it.

Hi Bos, Welcome to Susan's Place!

Please feel free to look around and explore. This site is a vast source of information that will help you along the way and a great place to meet new friends.

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All the best,
Jill

If you're not a feminist (or someone who agrees with equality for women,  and between genders,  even if they don't use the term) then you're not worth my time in my book.

The issue comes when men drown out the voices of women so they're no longer heard, or try to use their allyship to gain access to women's spaces. But then if they did this they're not a true feminist.

^What he said.
It doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand how men knowing women are their equals could possibly take away from women. Isn't that the goal of feminism? For the genders to be seen as and treated as equal?
Tumblr is a cesspool of ridiculousness. Thankfully, the real world isn't like it. At least, I hope not.

I care about the original feminism, not this modern one.

I'm with him. If you can't say that you are for women's rights then you're obviously not the kind of person I wanna be around.
I wouldn't voice my opinion over women when it comes to feminist things though.

Quote from: lxndr on October 30, 2014, 08:06:22 PM
If you're not a feminist (or someone who agrees with equality for women,  and between genders,  even if they don't use the term) then you're not worth my time in my book.

The issue comes when men drown out the voices of women so they're no longer heard, or try to use their allyship to gain access to women's spaces. But then if they did this they're not a true feminist.

this. it's like when a white person tries to talk about racism. why should someone be heard more than someone who experiences it? that's what happens when some men claim to be feminist because they're talking over people who experience it because they have the privilege. that isn't right. it's cool to be an ally to things but you don't drown out the people it actually effects.

i also wouldn't rely on tumblr too much for your opinion on things. some things make sense but other people are so radical in their thinking that it completely takes away from the actual meaning behind things. it's just being a feminist and being a man, you have no right to speak out on it, even if you have experienced it when living as female. that's why trans men shouldn't be allowed in lesbian/women spaces. it isn't your place anymore if you're out and living as a man. it is just how it is, especially when trans women aren't allowed in those spaces a lot of the time.

Quote from: Bos on October 30, 2014, 07:48:06 PM
i've only recently admitted to myself about being trans after years of identifying as female, and a pretty hard core feminist. my views on gender equality haven't changed in the slightest, but i'm worried about coming out to the communities that i'm a part of, mostly because i don't want my gender to affect how things are within them. for example, there's been quite a few male celebrities taking pictures in 'this is what a feminist looks like' tshirts, and i've seen backlash from that about how men shouldn't identify as feminists or be the ones talking about these things because it takes it away from women, which i guess does make sense. there was also a few tumblr threads i read a little while ago saying how trans men are often being sexist by trying to weigh in on feminism because they've experienced transphobia and sexism themselves, when really they shouldn't. i don't know, i'm mostly curious what other guys on this site think about it.

(bolding things I'd like to specifically comment on)
It strikes me as exceedingly odd whenever someone in a group campaigning for better treatment, basically tells a supporter to f--- off. Obviously "talking over" the actual group of people affected is a problem. But I've seen allies practically spit upon simply for chiming in their support. Happens to cis people in discussions about trans rights too. "Discrimination against transgender people is wrong!"  "You're cis, this isn't your fight, shut up!"
When I see this kind of misplaced hostility I wonder, do they want support and progress for their cause, or a special exclusive club? Wouldn't it be more productive, if someone is butting in, to say, "Hey, look. Thanks for supporting our cause. But you're talking over the people affected by this problem. If you truly want to help our cause, it would be helpful if you [suggestions here]."

There is a truly impressive amount of misguided bullcrap on tumblr, I advise not taking it too seriously.

I'm 100% for gender equality. I won't touch the term "feminism" though. Too many self-dubbed feminist subgroups that are explicitly misandrist (going so far as to mock men's issues in men's spaces), transphobic, or other things I don't want to get lumped in with.

You still care about the women in your life, and the future of our society, right? Keep fighting for whatever you feel is right, not just for yourself, but for everyone, and screw whatever anyone else says. I had a similar identity crisis when I realized I was transgender, but realized the issues I feel strongly about should not just be about me or what I've experienced.

The people you mention are some of the reasons why I (and many others) adamantly refuse to call myself a feminist. I support actual equality. Don't take them too seriously...ignoring them strips them of their influence. If only everyone could see that.

2nd wave feminist here. People are people and deserve equal treatment. I'm not radical like some of the wingnuts but I'm pretty firm in my beliefs. Men can be feminist. My husband is too.

I'm MtF, but I can never resist joining in on the topic of Feminism, so I hope no one minds me butting in here lol :P ♥︎

It's absolutely fine for men to be feminists - as far as I'm concerned, feminism is about equality for all sexes, genders and sexual orientations.  The true spirit of Feminism isn't about "hating men" as it's so often painted, it's about hating sexism and misogyny (which - granted - is often perpetrated by some men).  That's something everyone should hate.

I know I mention her a lot on here, but Laci Green (https://www.youtube.com/user/lacigreen) does an amazing job of summing up Feminism, at least in my humble opinion :)

http://youtu.be/UwJRFClybmk
http://youtu.be/EJPT_U97lNs

It also interesting that the trans* community and the feminist community are getting closer together lately (as far as I've seen anyway).  It does makes a lot of sense though - after all, we (and even the larger LGBT community for that matter) have many of the same issues and concerns that Feminism has been fighting against.  The worst thing in this day and age that a man can be compared to is either a woman ("Pussy", "C*nt", "Tw*t", "Douche", "Stop being such a girl" etc), or a homosexual ("Gay", "Queer", "Asslicker", "Fudgepacker" etc).  Why are these things even insults?  Because of misogyny and sexism (which of course leads to things like transphobia and homophobia).  This stuff hurts men just as much as women, even if it's in more subtle ways than people realise.  So yeh, there's nothing wrong with a man being a feminist, and those who say otherwise are just flat out wrong.

Also - welcome to the forums hun!  Yay! A new brother for me to snuggle! :laugh: ♥︎*Hugs*♥︎ :laugh:

I am a feminist, and everyone should be.

As an ftm person, seeking access to women-only spaces is generally not okay, but having progressive views cannot be a women-only space. (Note: I say generally okay because for some guys who have been through experiences like domestic violence, the only accessible help may be through a women-only space and everyone deserves access to these services).

Allies get complained about a lot in the college activist circles/tumblr, but what they really mean to complain about is bad allies. And since it has been decided that it is unproductive to say "not all male feminists" at that point it is up to us to step back, lay off and let the darkness pass, or be helpful in some way. When the person complaining is in a better mood, show (don't just tell) what a good ally you can be.

It can be hard to navigate, but being a feminist is for everyone. Being the most famous, vocal, celebrated feminist should be left to women.

Quote from: ♥︎ SarahD ♥︎ on October 31, 2014, 04:26:46 AM
The worst thing in this day and age that a man can be compared to is either a woman ("Pussy", "C*nt", "Tw*t", "Douche", "Stop being such a girl" etc), or a homosexual ("Gay", "Queer", "Asslicker", "Fudgepacker" etc).  Why are these things even insults?

Now, "douche", though.

Given the practice of douching is often actually disruptive to the environment down there (barring prescribed douches for specific medical conditions), "douche" could be a solid insult. It's calling someone "mostly useless and harmful to vaginas". Zing.

I believe that some folks believe that men can't be feminists, but only allies. No, I believe men can't be women, but can be allies. It's confusing an identity with a belief or something. :)
I was a feminist back in the 60s still consider myself one. If someone challenged me I would say the above. But there were quite a few men who were activists back then, like Alan Alda and Phil Donohue, who still are, as a matter of fact.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on October 31, 2014, 01:23:23 PM
...No, I believe men can't be women...

*AHEM*, I hope you didn't mean that the way it sounded hun ;) ♥︎

Quote from: blink on October 31, 2014, 01:08:00 PM
Now, "douche", though.

Given the practice of douching is often actually disruptive to the environment down there (barring prescribed douches for specific medical conditions), "douche" could be a solid insult. It's calling someone "mostly useless and harmful to vaginas". Zing.

Hmm, I never thought about it in that way.  Fair point tbh :) ♥︎

I'm still a feminist. Yes I identify as male but I plan to help  take down the Patriarchy from the inside ;)

I've never been 100% comfortable about feminism works honestly so I'm an ally to equal rights, but not feminism for the US tbh. I'm critical of modern feminism and even intersectionality beccause it turns into 'qu**r theory' sort of stuff that I'm not down for. I like talking about things in a realistic and evolving way instead of saying 'gender inclusive' when really it's not or holding onto stereotypes that are used to hurt people and make them seem more or less like people. I've been really unhappy lately about how inclusive and equal isn't equal and more about call out culture and shaming people into being quiet about issues. I don't hang with people who are phobic or sexist/racist, but I acknowledge when my views come off strongly.

You can be a man and still be a feminist, though as has been pointed out you will have to navigate that fine line between standing in solidarity with women or talking over them. Intersectional feminism recognises that there are multiple lines of oppression and privilege, and your voice will be relevant to discussions about oppression that you face. But that's no different to any individual, if your commenting on something about a form of oppression you don't experience the first thing you have to ask yourself is "am I adding to this discussion or drowning out the voices of people actually living this".

As trans people we get to experience both sides of the coin of male privilege, either gaining it or losing it, and we get to see first hand how crazy ---ked up it is. Certainly within trans inclusive feminist circles it's considered a valid an important viewpoint.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 31, 2014, 08:31:44 PM
if your commenting on something about a form of oppression you don't experience the first thing you have to ask yourself is "am I adding to this discussion or drowning out the voices of people actually living this".

I don't mean to derail the conversation or whatever, but I do want to point out that I have been on the receiving end of this from "feminists." I am a rape survivor, but I've had "feminists" who had never been raped tell me that I had no right to talk about it.

Don't see any conflicts between feminism and whatever gender/sex you are. :)

fem·i·nist
:  a person who supports feminism.
:  of, relating to, or supporting feminism. ("feminist literature")

fem·i·nism
:  the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

gen·der
:  the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

sex
:  either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures

fe·male
: of or relating to the sex that can produce young or lay eggs

trans·gen·der
:  of, relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth



As for the "talking over women" aspect, I think that's not really a topic about feminism, women, and transguys, but more about social skills and social graces. Timing, wording, how the people listening feel about the speaker (are they friends? does the speaker have to prove themselves first?), situation, the weather, mood, the flow of the conversation... those are the deciding factors I think. Just keep an eye out and observe, I think you will be able to "feel" if people will be offended or not. People's behaviors and thoughts are not so logical. :)

Quote from: Edge on October 31, 2014, 09:23:01 PM
I don't mean to derail the conversation or whatever, but I do want to point out that I have been on the receiving end of this from "feminists." I am a rape survivor, but I've had "feminists" who had never been raped tell me that I had no right to talk about it.

That is severely messed up, and makes no sense to me. Of course someone who has survived trauma should be able to talk about it.  Sorry anyone has given you trouble for it.

Quote from: Edge on October 31, 2014, 09:23:01 PM
I don't mean to derail the conversation or whatever, but I do want to point out that I have been on the receiving end of this from "feminists." I am a rape survivor, but I've had "feminists" who had never been raped tell me that I had no right to talk about it.

I've dealt with the same, too. You're not alone and it's a sad world when incidences like these happen. I've once discussed with friends on a facebook status about periods since the status was about them. I got told by such friend that I was not allowed to talk about it because "I had no right" but her MtF girlfriend was more than welcome to discuss in the status even though she's never experienced a period. My experiences are just as valid as the next person, regardless of my current gender identity.

Should I forget that I've been raped, that I had periods and experienced intersex birth condition and a female puberty just to ... what? To claim I have been male all along and that none of those things happened? No thanks! My past is my past and there is no running away from it. I will never pretend my experiences as a female never existed because those experiences helped mold me into the person I am today. 

Well, on the subject of rape, that's part of the thing. People of every gender (including men) get raped by people of every gender (including women). All rape survivors (including the many cis men I know who are also survivors and the people I know who were raped by women) should have the right to talk about it.

That said, I get what you're saying. I've shoved a baby out my vagina and I'd be a little pissed if someone told me I had no right to talk about that either.

Quote from: ♥︎ SarahD ♥︎ on October 31, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
*AHEM*, I hope you didn't mean that the way it sounded hun ;) ♥︎

Hmm, I never thought about it in that way.  Fair point tbh :) ♥︎

Absolutely not what you think I might have been thinking because I don't think you were ever a man, anymore than I was ever a woman. No, what I meant was:  You can only be what you are. For instance, A white person is not a POC. You can be an ally. Feminist is a different type of term. Probably more of a political statement than an identity.

--Jay

Everyone can be a feminist, and everyone can talk abouut the things they've experienced. If you're talking about something you haven't experienced personally, it's best to make sure you don't talk over those that have experienced it. However if you've experienced it personally, you have the same right to be able to express yourself.

I will place myself in an ally position to women when I pass all the time, because I'll probably not experience the things they do anymore. However I refuse to pretend that I didn't experience what it's like to be a woman/be perceived as a woman in our society  just so they can stick to their binary view of the world. I had periods, I got catcalled, I got harrassed by men... I spend 19 years of my life being seen as a woman and experiencing several of the problems feminism tries to addres, I can't just erase that.

I guess it's sort of complicated being a transman and feminism, because some of us do have more insight in what it's like to be treated as a woman in this society than most other men. I just take the guideline: have I personally experienced this or not? If I haven't I should leave room for those who have. If I have I can take a little more room if I'd want to.

Quote from: Edge on October 31, 2014, 09:23:01 PM
I don't mean to derail the conversation or whatever, but I do want to point out that I have been on the receiving end of this from "feminists." I am a rape survivor, but I've had "feminists" who had never been raped tell me that I had no right to talk about it.

I'm really sorry you had to experience that, there is never any excuse for silencing someone's lived experience

Quote from: Bos on October 30, 2014, 07:48:06 PM
i've only recently admitted to myself about being trans after years of identifying as female, and a pretty hard core feminist. my views on gender equality haven't changed in the slightest, but i'm worried about coming out to the communities that i'm a part of, mostly because i don't want my gender to affect how things are within them. for example, there's been quite a few male celebrities taking pictures in 'this is what a feminist looks like' tshirts, and i've seen backlash from that about how men shouldn't identify as feminists or be the ones talking about these things because it takes it away from women, which i guess does make sense. there was also a few tumblr threads i read a little while ago saying how trans men are often being sexist by trying to weigh in on feminism because they've experienced transphobia and sexism themselves, when really they shouldn't. i don't know, i'm mostly curious what other guys on this site think about it.

Hi
first of all while theres many trans people not being femenist theres also many who are. the atitute toward transgender invold in femenism depends, some femenist have been horrible transphobic specially toward mtf, while other comunities are very openminded and trans friendly. I cant speak of exactly how the atitute toward transpeople are in your comunity but I think you should try figure it out. if you got a fellow femenist friend to talk to about being trans start out with that person, talking about your concern and everything before comming out to everyone ells.

as I said it depends from place to place how people deal with the transness, Some places are open for transpeople in Only women spaces, while others are not. If people dont want you in only woman spaces cause you are a man that it should be there choice, But if they say you cant be an active femenist I will say they are full of s**. <- yeah sorry my languarge and you should find another femenist comunity which are open toward you.

theres alot of male femenist, its true that being a cismand you cant speak of womens opression in the same level as women can, Because cismen dont experience women opression. However it dose not mean you cant speak about it, I think we should stop the asuming that only gay people can stand up for gay issues, only trans people can stand up for trans issues and only women can speak of femenism, cause honestly it dose nothing good other than give people and expectations that "we are the one to educate you, but you are not really expected to getting our issues anyway" it hurtfull and very untrue, while there are people who claim to be very suportive of exemple gay people, but arn't really that openminded, there are also allies which I find to be very good and important in the fights.

beside being trans you actually Have experience women opression, so if I identify as a femenist and Have experience women opression, and even can speak for the gender diffrence between how sociaty threat men and women out from your own experience, I think you are very qualified to speak of femenism.

and no, its not the same as etnical issues. If you are black you cant turn white and then having experience of opression, but when you are ftm you can go from female to male and had this experience. its true when you transition you will own priviliges and you do have the choice to forget all of your past and what women experience while not dealing with these issues anymore, but you also have a choice not to and keep acknogled that this are issues.

I hope this was helpfull somehow.
---

As has been said here multiple times, men shouldn't talk over women in feminism. Men should support and listen to women's views and points, in the way that cis people should listen to trans people when discussing trans issues. I think all men, trans men included, should use their privilege to call out other men, and support women's views and voices on sexism.

Quote from: jayyylmao on November 02, 2014, 07:10:44 AM
As has been said here multiple times, men shouldn't talk over women in feminism. Men should support and listen to women's views and points, in the way that cis people should listen to trans people when discussing trans issues. I think all men, trans men included, should use their privilege to call out other men, and support women's views and voices on sexism.

So, we can't be feminists? Our job is to just *listen*?  If that's what you got from the posts, I ask you to quote it. Feminism is about everyone. In that vein my husband can't say anything about trans rights, he can only listen.

Feminism is not an exclusive club. It's about equality. Men can be feminists and they can fight for equality. It's only about women? No, that's not true. It's about humans in general. Look up 2nd wave feminism. It has everything to do about equality for everyone.

Every human deserves to be listened to, regardless of what is between their legs. They deserve to be treated equally despite what's between their legs or their gender. There is no superior gender and saying that one gender should listen and protect one opinion because they are the other gender?

Men and women are the same. We are all equal. There is nothing here that makes us different. If a man is wrong and he hurts someone, he's wrong. If a woman is wrong and she hurts someone, she's wrong.

Gender does not grant a magic ticket. We are all equal. We all deserve the sane treatment, regardless of anything. I will fight for women's rights, men's rights, minority rights, and anything else. You toss it in and I'll fight for it. If no ones being hurt or victimized I will fight for it.

That's my reading of my role now. It's actually pretty important to have male voices supporting women in this way to call out other men. Of course, I think my role may be a little more limited due to being "out". But it can be rather interesting sometimes.

--Jay

Quote from: jayyylmao on November 02, 2014, 07:10:44 AM
As has been said here multiple times, men shouldn't talk over women in feminism. Men should support and listen to women's views and points, in the way that cis people should listen to trans people when discussing trans issues. I think all men, trans men included, should use their privilege to call out other men, and support women's views and voices on sexism.

Quote from: aleon515 on November 01, 2014, 01:06:06 AM

Absolutely not what you think I might have been thinking because I don't think you were ever a man, anymore than I was ever a woman. No, what I meant was:  You can only be what you are. For instance, A white person is not a POC. You can be an ally. Feminist is a different type of term. Probably more of a political statement than an identity.

--Jay

Hehe, I figured that's what you meant hun, but the way it was written sounded like something else lol :P ♥︎

I don't believe in feminism, but I do believe in equality. I do not believe in feminism because of the fact that they teach women are better than men at all things and at all times. I want nothing to do with that. They also teach that only men abuse, not women, which is false.

Quote from: MichaelJTritter on November 03, 2014, 06:12:10 PM
I don't believe in feminism, but I do believe in equality. I do not believe in feminism because of the fact that they teach women are better than men at all things and at all times. I want nothing to do with that. They also teach that only men abuse, not women, which is false.

Not all feminists are like that, the majority of them stand for general equality, it's just the ones which are more problematic are the ones which people hear more about, and that's what gives feminism a bad name.

Quote from: MichaelJTritter on November 03, 2014, 06:12:10 PM
I don't believe in feminism, but I do believe in equality. I do not believe in feminism because of the fact that they teach women are better than men at all things and at all times. I want nothing to do with that. They also teach that only men abuse, not women, which is false.

Anyone who says that isn't a proper feminist. Feminism is about equality and part of the problem being adressed are men being abused and the way society reacts. It's two sides of the same coin. By changing the way society thinks about women, we're changing the way they think about men. (example: men are insulted with 'female' insults because of how we think about women, the worst thing a guy can be is 'feminine , obviously bull->-bleeped-<-) For the better for everyone. ... At least that's the idea, it's gonna take a while and a lot of hard work to achieve it though :(

Though obviously IF I meant that I might have meant that women could become men or something. If you've read my posts you know that I clearly do not think that's at all what transgender means.

--Jay

Quote from: ♥︎ SarahD ♥︎ on November 02, 2014, 11:50:34 AM
Hehe, I figured that's what you meant hun, but the way it was written sounded like something else lol :P ♥︎

All of the FTMs I know in real life are staunch feminists. That might be because most of them I met in college (a women's college), so my sample set is a bit skewed. In the wilds of the internet, however, I have stumbled upon all manner of douchebaggery. Consequently, I just don't read tumblr.

I also think that, while men should never speak over women regarding women's issues, cis people (even women) need to remember not to speak over trans people when discussing trans issues.

That said, what do you guys think of the recent kerfuffle over college admission? My alma mater still does not accept mtf applicants, but ftm students are allowed to stay. Personally, I like the stance taken by Mills College: cis women and all transpeople are welcome. I think the president called trans inclusion a natural expansion to their mission.