Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Trouble In Transtopia: Murmurs Of Sex Change Regret
Source: http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/11/trouble-in-transtopia-murmurs-of-sex-change-regret/
Author: Stella Morabito
Posted: Nov 11th, 2014

"Everyone has regrets. Some of us have big regrets. Most everyone has some place to go to get help dealing with them."

What a pathetic, one-sided, disgusting hit piece from the RWNJs. 

Why its not talked why trans comunities can have trouble with regreters ? Like the fear to be talked of generalised as in the article

This is why I stay away from news. You don't even have to read the entire thing to see how it's slanted. You can even read the headlines and figure out what direction they're going. I'm sure there are people who want to detransition out there, but this seems like an obviously slanted article. Where did all the unbiased news go?  :(

Just look at the source.   This is no surprise.

I always wonder where ones own responsibility of there own actions come to play?

Easy to place the blame on someone for there own response in the process.

Anyway, it's like that with everything now in the world. A easy buck.

I own my decision in my life.

Did anyone else catch that Susans.org was mentioned in the article?

Quote from: Marcellow on November 11, 2014, 05:42:55 PM
Did anyone else catch that Susans.org was mentioned in the article?

Yeah I saw that. Their obviously cherry picking to support their biased views. I can admit there are people in the trans community who do have a lot of vitriol for people who experience transition regret, but they aren't the norm and this article is trying to make it out like it is.

Predictable... using biased views that gender transition is nothing but "mutilating the body that God gave you," and cherry-picking like 5 examples of it in order to claim that somehow that means it's wrong for everyone.

What I find funny is that the author basically counters her own argument... she lists a study that shows that 65% of people who have had cosmetic surgery regret it, and yet didn't link to a single study showing what percentage of trans people regret it, she just listed like 4 or 5 individual examples. So where's the study showing that that same proportion of trans people regret it? And that therefore SRS really is just the same as getting a boob job or a nose job for a cis person? Nope? Just that study that shows that post-op Swedish trans people have "higher mortality than the general population?" (which basically means absolutely nothing, because first of all that's only a difference of 12% compared to the non-trans population after a whopping 30 years, and again, that same study actually showed "no statistically-significant difference" in those sex-reassigned after the year 1989.)

Every study that I've seen on SRS outcomes has shown that about 90% of people are satisfied with it. And considering that the British survey that the writer of this article linked to, with that whopping 65% figure for regretting plastic surgery in general, (and again, she never linked to a study on what percentage of trans people regret SRS, she just picked individual examples,) that basically completely invalidates the entire point of the study. If MtF SRS were just like any other cosmetic surgery, than wouldn't 65% of trans women be regretting it too? Where's the study showing that? Nowhere? 10% at most? Then SRS must not be like other cosmetic surgeries. And being transgender must not be the same as other people who just arbitratily feel like they wish they had bigger boobs or a smaller nose.

Just saying. Ignore this right-wing "God made you this way" bigoted and limited view of trans regret stories, and stick with the actual statistics.

I've only read the headline and comments in this thread, but the word "Transtopia" makes me laugh. Does the fringey conservative author of this piece think being trans is a utopia? Kind of tells me they may be repressing something, hehe.

Quote from: AnonBear on November 11, 2014, 05:54:13 PM
Yeah I saw that. Their obviously cherry picking to support their biased views. I can admit there are people in the trans community who do have a lot of vitriol for people who experience transition regret, but they aren't the norm and this article is trying to make it out like it is.

The problem is that some regretters try to validate their own situations by throwing the rest of us under the bus while making a few bucks on the side.  Is a full transition the answer for everyone who experiences gender issues?  No.  But it is for many of us.  I have read that the suicide attempt rate goes from 41% to 4.5% post-op.  Any psychiatrist will tell you that any treatement that reduces suicide rates this dramatically is a good one.

Quote from: Jill F on November 11, 2014, 06:03:19 PM
The problem is that some regretters try to validate their own situations by throwing the rest of us under the bus while making a few bucks on the side.  Is a full transition the answer for everyone who experiences gender issues?  No.  But it is for many of us.  I have read that the suicide attempt rate goes from 41% to 4.5% post-op.  Any psychiatrist will tell you that any treatement that reduces suicide rates this dramatically is a good one.

True. It'd be nice if people who regretted their decisions owned up to them. Its gotta be hard to realize you screwed up so majorly, but come on that doesn't mean the whole trans population is fake.

And I agree with the rest of your statement. Transition is usually life saving, and to try to stop people from transitioning when they gotta is inhuman.

Detransitioners, regretters, they're still transitioning and still transgender people, aren't they? A reminder:

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella termSuggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others

I know this is a sensitive topic. But put yourself in the shoes of someone who goes through the transition process only to find out they still haven't found themselves.  It's not for us to judge people, that's why I bolded deserving. If you think transition is tough, try doing it twice.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Vale on November 11, 2014, 05:27:14 PM
This is why I stay away from news. You don't even have to read the entire thing to see how it's slanted. You can even read the headlines and figure out what direction they're going. I'm sure there are people who want to detransition out there, but this seems like an obviously slanted article. Where did all the unbiased news go?  :(

Exactly.

I think the right-wingers are trying to stem the flood of support (in the form of federal govt approval for SRS) by yammering about the regrets some have had.

It's political...and evil.

I do think too many in this community aren't sensitive enough to what regretters are going through and go on the defensive about their own choices when confronted with those that transition didn't work for. And then its like its swept under the rug so that company doesn't see our dirt.


I think both sides of the issue could stand some introspection.

Yes, we are guilty as a community of the type of attacks described in the article.

Same old names, same old stuff. The commenters on the site mostly seem to be hate-filled bigots who just want to trash anything "other" and call it "perverse". That's the target audience of these "exposés".

Don't read the comments. Lots of ignorance, hate and just plain unpleasantness.

I checked out the link in the story that this case goes back to 2007 and the alleged flaming occured then on this site. This is old news. There are a lot more people regretting their marriages with the mental stress and expense involved trying to break such a union.

Joelene

Makes me shudder that there are people out there actively trying to undermine my health with lies and distortions about my condition. Evil has many forms.

Quote from: Rachel85 on November 11, 2014, 08:35:40 PM
Don't read the comments. Lots of ignorance, hate and just plain unpleasantness.

Uh, too late. :(

Quote from: Rachel85 on November 11, 2014, 08:35:40 PM
Don't read the comments. Lots of ignorance, hate and just plain unpleasantness.

This sort of goes without saying for most any news story.  The ones making the comments have nothing else to do; and how truly sad they are comes screaming out of what they write when they think it is anonymous.


Erin

Quote from: ErinWDK on November 12, 2014, 08:46:18 AM
This sort of goes without saying for most any news story.  The ones making the comments have nothing else to do; and how truly sad they are comes screaming out of what they write when they think it is anonymous.

That's what worries me a little.  If they act that way in an anonymous comments section, then they act that way behind closed doors in real life when they think nobody is looking too.  The anonymity might make that person's identity a mystery, but the thoughts and hatred behind the comments are very real and can be applied in very real ways, from threatening looks on the street all the way to actual violence or laws made to discriminate.  Scary to think that plenty of people hold innermost thoughts that are so disgusting.  (But then again, I'm sure we all have places in our minds we'd rather other people never, ever knew we had! ;))

I guess the only thing I would add is that life isn't safe.  How many people do you know who've made a decision that altered their life forever and weren't happy about it.  To imagine every single transition would be a great success, seems to me to be just a tad naive.  Life doesn't work that way.  There are many more things in life that are no where near as safe and successful as transgender transitioning.

Paige :)

Quote from: Paige on November 12, 2014, 02:56:57 PM
I guess the only thing I would add is that life isn't safe.  How many people do you know who've made a decision that altered their life forever and weren't happy about it.

Great point, Paige.  People regret life-altering things every day.  Leaving a job.  Getting divorced.  Marrying the wrong person.  Buying a useless car.  Taking the wrong major in college.  Drinking and driving.

And people kill themselves over that stuff every day too.

You know what, eff that hack writer Stella Morabito and her god damn bull->-bleeped-<- religious right-wing anti-trans propaganda that made me second guess my effing decision to transition after I read her hateful article and the hateful comments she deliberately incited.  She didn't make me second guess whether I was trans - I'm trans, whether she likes it or not, and whether I like it or not.  She made me second guess whether the world was safe enough from people like her who would beat me to death in an alley if they thought nobody was looking.

A quick search for her name on Google reveals that she's made quite a career of pushing an anti-trans agenda, pretending that it's actual journalism and not just bigotry.  A nasty piece of work.

(Er, edited to remove prior vitriol - Brenda E.)

Well that's a big unfortunate mess. Of course as already stated it's one sided and decidedly hostile. I think she's treading on some hilariously thin aguments though. in particular the statement of 65% of plastic surgeries have regret...That makes sexual reassignment surgery like -the- gold standard with it's very low regret rate.

Just in case some person is anonymously tallying info, I'm post op and loving it.

67.6% of stats are made up on the spot.

That's true. At least it is 80% of the time.

QuoteGreat point, Paige.  People regret life-altering things every day.  Leaving a job.  Getting divorced.  Marrying the wrong person.  Buying a useless car.  Taking the wrong major in college.  Drinking and driving.

And people kill themselves over that stuff every day too.

People experience far less silencing and intimidation for speaking out about their regret in those situations you list. They also, typically, have far more support available to them.

Quote from: cathyrains on November 12, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
People experience far less silencing and intimidation for speaking out about their regret in those experiences you list.

Well, sure, but the point I was trying to make was that the fact some people regret certain decisions doesn't make them bad decisions per se.  The author of the article seems to be trying to claim that because some people regret their decision to transition, it must've been a flawed idea in the first place.  She then tries to extrapolate a few bad outcomes to the entire transgender community by implying that transition is a flawed idea in almost every case.  Shoddy journalism, shoddy logic, and just another idiot pushing an idiotic agenda.

I wonder if these folks would take this same attitude to other medical treatments. Sometimes people get misdiagnosed and receive the wrong treatment. Yes, it's unfortunate. No, people shouldn't be made to feel ashamed for being misdiagnosed and receiving incorrect treatment. It doesn't mean the treatment itself is wrong for everyone. If someone were misdiagnosed with diabetes and given insulin, that would end rather badly, but the problem was the misdiagnosis. In the meantime there are diabetics out there who need insulin.

They're willfully ignorant, all these people saying "they should be receiving psychiatric care!" Yeah, the thing is, the actual mental health professionals - the ones who've studied this condition for decades rather than basing everything on a knee-jerk reaction from ignorance - have reached a consensus that transition is the only effective treatment for this condition. "Reparative therapy" has been methodically proven not to be worth a crap. Ta-dah. Fanfare. Confetti.

Quote from: Rachel85 on November 11, 2014, 08:35:40 PM
Don't read the comments. Lots of ignorance, hate and just plain unpleasantness.

Lot of jealous people in the comments, I'd say :)  I'm proud to be what I am, obviously, they are not.  I smile, and think, these people must have some sort of hate in or about their life while I am loving mine.  Makes me more happy about being trans more than anything.  Maybe I am just weird - but I have always find that those who 'hate'... have a lot of it in their life and are unhappy.  Those who accept, love, and give compassion have a meaningful and happy life.

Quote from: blink on November 13, 2014, 08:32:25 AM
I wonder if these folks would take this same attitude to other medical treatments. Sometimes people get misdiagnosed and receive the wrong treatment. Yes, it's unfortunate. No, people shouldn't be made to feel ashamed for being misdiagnosed and receiving incorrect treatment. It doesn't mean the treatment itself is wrong for everyone. If someone were misdiagnosed with diabetes and given insulin, that would end rather badly, but the problem was the misdiagnosis. In the meantime there are diabetics out there who need insulin.

Obviously! I think since heart attacks have a 33% fatality rate, people should skip treatment entirely, that'll fix em.

Quote from: Jill F on November 12, 2014, 08:30:14 PM
67.6% of stats are made up on the spot.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 12, 2014, 08:40:25 PM
That's true. At least it is 80% of the time.

:)

Quote from: Paige on November 13, 2014, 03:37:08 PM

Quote from: Jill F on Yesterday at 09:30:14 pm

67.6% of stats are made up on the spot.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on Yesterday at 09:40:25 pm

That's true. At least it is 80% of the time.
:)

ROFLMAO :D

I'll go read the article now. 8) 8)

The author is a fan of and quotes Dr. Paul McHugh in her articles. That should tell you something about her motivation.

For those of you who don't know - Paul McHugh is no friend to the transgender community; he has done incalculable harm to the community because of his former position as psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital and his virulently anti trans stance. He gets drug out as a expert every time someone wants to make the same points that the author of this article does.

It is clearly an unbalanced hit piece missing a lot of facts that would completely water down her case. It seems that people like her never let facts and evidence stand in the way of their opinions and motives.

Quote from: Eva Marie on November 13, 2014, 04:20:06 PM
The author is a fan of and quotes Dr. Paul McHugh in her articles. That should tell you something about her motivation.

For those of you who don't know - Paul McHugh is no friend to the transgender community; he has done incalculable harm to the community because of his former position as psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital and his virulently anti trans stance. He gets drug out as a expert every time someone wants to make the same points that the author of this article does.

It is clearly an unbalanced hit piece missing a lot of facts that would completely water down her case. It seems that people like her never let facts and evidence stand in the way of their opinions and motives.

Are you not attacking the messenger, rather than the message?

Serious regrets and de-transitions are a seemingly growing reality and the reasons for these regrets should be looked at objectively in order to possibly understand what went wrong.  Would it not be more constructive to examine the arguments first before just dismissing them as "willfully ignorant 'knee-jerk' reactions"?

I followed a couple of the links provided and found this one to be interesting and  informative:  http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/31/health.socialcare

Quote from: Susan522 on November 13, 2014, 05:05:35 PM
Are you not attacking the messenger, rather than the message?

Serious regrets and de-transitions are a seemingly growing reality and the reasons for these regrets should be looked at objectively in order to possibly understand what went wrong.  Would it not be more constructive to examine the arguments first before just dismissing them as "willfully ignorant 'knee-jerk' reactions"?

Hi Susan522,

I think there comes a point when you have to attack the messenger.   If the points being raised have been repeatedly debunked and you sense a dishonest maliciousness to the person who brings these debunked points up then it's time to stop giving this person the benefit of the doubt. 

Reading the other posters in this thread, you get a good idea why people have a real problem with the anecdotal evidence and the suspect statistics being used.  But this is not the first time these arguments against transgender transitioning have been raised and argued against.

The internet is full of people that make bogus comments about science for instance.  Many times these commenters want you to prove to them why they are wrong and then ignore you because their belief system doesn't allow them to learn.  I'm sorry life is too short for this dishonest game.

Anyway just my two cents.  Have a nice day.
Paige :)
   

Quote from: Paige on November 13, 2014, 06:25:45 PM
Hi Susan522,

I think there comes a point when you have to attack the messenger.   If the points being raised have been repeatedly debunked and you sense a dishonest maliciousness to the person who brings these debunked points up then it's time to stop giving this person the benefit of the doubt. 

Reading the other posters in this thread, you get a good idea why people have a real problem with the anecdotal evidence and the suspect statistics being used.  But this is not the first time these arguments against transgender transitioning have been raised and argued against.

The internet is full of people that make bogus comments about science for instance.  Many times these commenters want you to prove to them why they are wrong and then ignore you because their belief system doesn't allow them to learn.  I'm sorry life is too short for this dishonest game.

Anyway just my two cents.  Have a nice day.
Paige :)

I do not see these arguments as having been "debunked" or "bogus".  I see serious mistakes being made in how people are treated and lives being ruined.  Sadly I also see a "knee-jerk" reaction on the part of the "community" to demonize the author for bringing these issues to light, (then justify that demonization), and seemingly afraid or unwilling to examine an obvious short coming in the treatment protocols for people like yourself who apparently suffer from a wide variety of possibly related disorders.

Making the argument that it is society's fault for not accepting behavior that it deems inappropriate is a red herring and a "cop out" IMHO.  The issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

Quote from: Susan522 on November 13, 2014, 06:50:43 PM
  ...The issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

More people getting a surgery that is essentially brand new?

Quote from: Susan522 on November 13, 2014, 06:50:43 PM
Making the argument that it is society's fault for not accepting behavior that it deems inappropriate is a red herring and a "cop out" IMHO.  The issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

Are we seeing a "growing number of 'regretters'", or are they simply being played up more? I haven't seen any proper analysis by anyone that implies that it's risen numerically or by percentage. I don't think anyone really knows. What we have seen is a small group of examples with no context. My problem is that writers seem to latch onto them to generate sensationalist articles. I take those anecdotes as no more significant than I do the positive ones we more often see here, and a good deal less gratifying. I'd love to see such a study done, but I personally won't do it for a number of reasons.

Quote from: Susan522 on November 13, 2014, 06:50:43 PMI also see a "knee-jerk" reaction on the part of the "community" to demonize the author for bringing these issues to light.

The author isn't bringing anything to light.  She's writing third-hand comment bait for bigots.  Her article is has few - if any - genuine facts presented in an unbiased manner, and the issues she's bringing to light are inflammatory, dishonest, and designed solely to generate a self-perpetuating frenzy of vile comments.  I'm not sure why we're even debating whether the article is legit journalism or not (it's not), or whether the author is unbiased or has a rather disgraceful agenda ( - it's the latter, thus making her personal beliefs and values a legitimate target seeing as she's inserted them into her work.)

QuoteThe issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

Not sure this is accurate.  The real question is whether the percentage of regretters is growing.  Since more transgender people are finally getting access to treatment, there's going to be more regretters.  This is a function of the greater numbers of transitioners, not a greater proportion of regretters.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 13, 2014, 07:25:57 PM
More people getting a surgery that is essentially brand new?

They have been doing these surgeries in the US since the late 1960's.  Even earlier in Europe and other parts of the world.

Quote from: Brenda E on November 13, 2014, 07:36:32 PM
The author isn't bringing anything to light.  She's writing third-hand comment bait for bigots.  Her article is has few - if any - genuine facts presented in an unbiased manner, and the issues she's bringing to light are inflammatory, dishonest, and designed solely to generate a self-perpetuating frenzy of vile comments.  I'm not sure why we're even debating whether the article is legit journalism or not (it's not), or whether the author is unbiased or has a rather disgraceful agenda ( - it's the latter, thus making her personal beliefs and values a legitimate target seeing as she's inserted them into her work.)

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.  I will grant you that the studies noted are seven to nine years old, but I do not see that as a reason for invalidating them.  What did you think of the Guardian article, that I referenced above?  Did you read it? Or just not bother because you see anything that questions the "approved" trans* mantra as merely an effort to"generate a self-perpetuating frenzy of vile comments".   I do not agree that her pointing out the obvious shortcomings in the current protocols are not "genuine facts presented in an unbiased manner", nor that "the issues she's bringing to light are inflammatory, dishonest" or otherwise non-existent.

In case you missed it, it gist of the article is the outright denial that a problem even exists!  Until thereal problems of diagnosis and appropriate treatment protocols are addressed in an adult and unbiased fashion, this condition will remain little more that a political football to be kicked around for the political advantage of both sides of the political spectrum.

But please....Do carry on.

Quote from: Susan522 on November 13, 2014, 08:42:51 PM
They have been doing these surgeries in the US since the late 1960's.  Even earlier in Europe and other parts of the world.

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.  I will grant you that the studies noted are seven to nine years old, but I do not see that as a reason for invalidating them.  What did you think of the Guardian article, that I referenced above?  Did you read it? Or just not bother because you see anything that questions the "approved" trans* mantra as merely an effort to"generate a self-perpetuating frenzy of vile comments".   I do not agree that her pointing out the obvious shortcomings in the current protocols are not "genuine facts presented in an unbiased manner", nor that "the issues she's bringing to light are inflammatory, dishonest" or otherwise non-existent.

In case you missed it, it gist of the article is the outright denial that a problem even exists!  Until thereal problems of diagnosis and appropriate treatment protocols are addressed in an adult and unbiased fashion, this condition will remain little more that a political football to be kicked around for the political advantage of both sides of the political spectrum.

But please....Do carry on.

OK, so 50 years. Compared to the 1,960 years worth of transsexuals since Jesus walked the earth. And who knows how many transsexuals before that. I stand by my comment, this is brand new.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 13, 2014, 08:47:34 PM
OK, so 50 years. Compared to the 1,960 years worth of transsexuals since Jesus walked the earth. And who knows how many transsexuals before that. I stand by my comment, this is brand new.

Hmmm....I think the OP was about "Murmurs Of Sex Change Regret".  I am not aware of any actual sex-change surgeries prior to 1932 when the first was attempted on Lili Elbe.  I think that trying to reference "the 1,960 years worth of transsexuals since Jesus walked the earth. And who knows how many transsexuals before that..." is a it of a red herring, wouldn't you agree?  No?  I guess not :-\

If the first generation of people to receive these surgeries is still processing their life with it, how is anyone supposed to have an accurate picture yet? Weymouth has one of the biggest Herring Run/fish ladders in the world. You don't want to play that game with me. Wouldn't you agree?  No? I guess not. :-\

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 13, 2014, 09:36:48 PM
If the first generation of people to receive these surgeries is still processing their life with it, how is anyone supposed to have an accurate picture yet? Weymouth has one of the biggest Herring Run/fish ladders in the world. You don't want to play that game with me. Wouldn't you agree?  No? I guess not. :-\

Guess again.  You fished out the red herring.  Now you wanna play games.  No Thanks!

C'mon folks, we're not playing this game.  Please stop or this thread will end up getting locked.

Quote from: Susan522 on November 13, 2014, 06:50:43 PM
I do not see these arguments as having been "debunked" or "bogus".  I see serious mistakes being made in how people are treated and lives being ruined.  Sadly I also see a "knee-jerk" reaction on the part of the "community" to demonize the author for bringing these issues to light, (then justify that demonization), and seemingly afraid or unwilling to examine an obvious short coming in the treatment protocols for people like yourself who apparently suffer from a wide variety of possibly related disorders.

Making the argument that it is society's fault for not accepting behavior that it deems inappropriate is a red herring and a "cop out" IMHO.  The issue is the growing number of 'regretters'.  The question is "Why?"

Hi Susan522,

It seems to me that Carrie Liz made some excellent points on this thread about the article in question that you have chosen not to address.  Instead you've generalized all responses as "knee-jerk".   

Also before you ask "Why", I think you should explain what you mean by a "growing number of regretters".   With a growing number of people transitioning  there would naturally be more people who regret transition.  But I think the implication of your statement is that the percentage of regretters in the transitioning population has grown.  This article, the 2004 article you linked to and you haven't given any evidence to prove this.

Finally, I would like to thank you so much for suggesting I have a wide variety of related disorders.  That was so sweet of you.

Have a lovely night,
Paige :)

Quote from: Susan522 on November 13, 2014, 05:05:35 PM
Are you not attacking the messenger, rather than the message?

Serious regrets and de-transitions are a seemingly growing reality and the reasons for these regrets should be looked at objectively in order to possibly understand what went wrong.  Would it not be more constructive to examine the arguments first before just dismissing them as "willfully ignorant 'knee-jerk' reactions"?

I followed a couple of the links provided and found this one to be interesting and  informative:  http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/31/health.socialcare

What I wrote was referring to the person that wrote that article; not the messeneger. It is my opinion that she carefully cherry picked her facts to present a one sided argument. The fact that she uses Dr. Paul McHugh as a reference in related articles (who is generally not regarded as a credible resource by the trans community from what I can tell) should tell you a lot.

What I would *like* to see is a balanced article that fairly represents all sides - the good and the bad - and let the reader decide how they feel. 

Since you said:

Quote from: Susan522
Serious regrets and de-transitions are a seemingly growing reality and the reasons for these regrets should be looked at objectively in order to possibly understand what went wrong.

I believe that we are in agreement on this. You made the same point that I was trying to make - this article IMO only presented one side of the issue.when we ought to be looking at all sides, and don't forget that not all of these surgeries are abject failures. How many people are alive today because they received appropriate medical care for being transgender? That fact seemed to be pretty much glossed over in that article.

I realize that people's feelings about this issue are running high and it was not my intent to start an argument or attack anyone - My intent was to point out how unbalanced and one sided I thought the article was.

My apologies if I offended anyone.

Debating and discussion of such articles is important. This can and should be done in a logical and informative way.

Opinions will differ, that is why we debate. It is a healthy exchange of ideas.

The addition of snide like comments at the end of  posts belittles your opinion and accomplishes nothing except to make you look foolish and incapable of reasoned expression.

Please think when you post.

In a world where acceptance of trans*people is at best marginal I would have thought that lateral violence to each other would be seen as unproductive.

I responded to the article.

The science is clear, when the guidelines are properly followed there is little to no regret post Gender Reassignment Surgery.

In one study...

     An inception cohort was retrospectively identified consisting of all
     subjects with gender identity disorder who were approved for sex
     reassignment in Sweden during the period 1972-1992. The period of time
     that elapsed between the application and this evaluation ranged from
     4 to 24 years. The total cohort consisted of 218 subjects. The results
     showed that 3.8% of the patients who were sex reassigned during 1972-1992
     regretted the measures taken. - Factors predictive of regret in sex reassignment by
     Landén M1, Wålinder J, Hambert G, Lundström B.
     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570489

In another study...

     Altogether 325 consecutive adolescent and adult applicants for sex
     reassignment participated: 222 started hormone treatment, 103 did
     not; 188 completed and 34 dropped out of treatment. Only data of
     the 162 adults were used to evaluate treatment...After treatment
     the group was no longer gender dysphoric. The vast majority
     functioned quite well psychologically, socially and sexually.
     Two non-homosexual male-to-female transsexuals expressed regrets. -  Sex
     reassignment: outcomes and predictors of treatment for adolescent and adult
     transsexuals by Smith YL1, Van Goozen SH, Kuiper AJ, Cohen-Kettenis PT.
     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032

8 people in the first study, and 2 in the second study. People suffering from regret are hardly a screaming throng.

I should know, as I run the website (Susan's Place Transgender Resources, https://www.susans.org) mentioned in this article.

It is the largest transgender support resource in the world. Since 2006 7,175,530 Unique visitors made 12,936,461 visits resulting in 79,153,463 Pageviews to my web site. Over 14,000 transsexuals and their  supporters have made 1,370,755 posts since I switched my forum software back in 2003. 

So I guess you could call me as close to an expert on transsexualism as you will find here.

I must say it was so great to see my site referenced in the article here because it brought this caltrop to my attention.

You see I just love rebutting people who make false and misleading statements about my web site. I don't even have to rely on my memory, you see everything is documented, and archived so it's all still there.

One thing I can say outright is that we have had very few posting of regret.

Since I made the rules and set the policy on the site, I can tell you there is absolutely no policy against discussion of post-op regret on my web site.

Here are the policies

     People suffering from post-op regret have every right to discuss
     the topic, until they start hijacking SRS and transition threads
     with the post-op regret themes...

     They also cannot attempt to discourage people from
     having SRS, any more than I want people
     encouraging people to do so.

     That being said Post-op Regret would make an acceptable
     topic. Discussing the short comings of SRS would make a
     excellent thread. Discussing ways to improve outcomes
     from therapy. Etc.

     The topic isn't banned what is banned is hijacking threads,
     and using their personal regret as the basis to say other people
     shouldn't consider transition or SRS as a means of dealing with
     severe GID.

That is the site's entire policy on the subject.

In the 19 years I have been running the web site we have prohibited exactly one user from talking about the subject after they had around 50 posts and an entire thread to state their views and to contribute something constructive, they simply kept repeatedly blaming others for their own actions and repeating the same arguments why they were not responsible for their choices ad nauseum.

We spent hours dealing with this individual before doing so. They were finally banned, for posting that they were planning on reaching out to groups who they knew would attempt to hurt the transgender community.

There seems to be one common thread in people expressing regret for having SRS and it's a glaring one. Lying to their therapists to get what they want.

Your article references Sheila Jeffrey's book, "Gender Hurts." which includes a quote from our then forum admin Dennis.

Which for the sake of discussion, I will include in my response.

     "The reaction from the transgender community was fast, furious, and abusive, particularly in the
      Susans.org discussion forum as described in Sheila Jeffrey's book, 'Gender Hurts.'"

I took a look at the quote and it was so heavily edited as to be unrecognizable.

     Finch first desertion of the cause on the Susan's.org discussion forum,
     where 'Dennis' comments on Finch's legal case against the Monash
     clinic, 'this is a joke! And calls him a 'media whore' (Susan's.org,
     Dennis, 2007). Another commentor, 'Melissa', says, 'people like
     this make me sick... I'm sorry people who regret transitioning should
     be shot. They are a waste of oxygen', and 'Helen W' says that Finch
     should be 'laughed out of the courtroom', and calls him an 'arch
     manipulator') (idid.).

     They reject the idea that regretters really exist and say that they do not
     know of any.

Here is the reality of what they said in the complete context. You can read it for yourself at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,11302.0.html

It started with Dennis making a statement about Mr. Finch's case against the clinic...

     There's one in Australia who's suing his doctors, even
     though he fudged his answers the second time round of
     psychiatric testing. The first time, he was rejected:

     http://www.realityresources.com/alanfinch.htm

     I hope he loses.

     Dennis

He was followed two post later by Melissa whose quote also appeared in the book but very heavily edited let's look at the entire quote

     People like this make me sick.  HE decides to lie and
     then blames everyone else just so he doesn't have to
     accept responsibility for his actions.  In doing so, it
     harms all "real" transsexuals as a whole.  People
     like this are actually on of the reasons my parents are
     having a hard time accepting this.  They are worried I
     will have the same regrets, but if anything, I have been
     *extremely* honest with people.  I'm sorry, people who
     regret transitioning enough to detransition should be shot.
     They are only a waste of oxygen.
   
     Melissa

There is no excuse for the last line and that should been caught and edited by the moderation staff on the site as it violates the terms of service. Since it has existed for so long and has been quoted in the book, I shall leave it as is, but will publicly state it should've never been allowed there in the first place, and I apologize to anyone who has been affected or hurt by it.

Now let's look at what Helen said...

     I wish Mr. Finch would be laughed out of the courtroom.
     And it sickens me that Leach and his crew are using this
     "arch manipulator" as an example.  And where did that
     10% dissatisfaction statistic come from?

     And the friend who outed Mr Finch as a pathological liar
     is accused of suffering from, "the hellish emotional confusion
     which results from crossing gender lines."  ???

     I have a high level of suspicion of the veracity of
     anything that is on that site.  I think Mr. Leach is an
     exploiter and a thief who preys on the insecurity and
     internalized worthlessness that trans people feel for his
     own gain.

     helen

Further down in the thread Dennis states,

     I agree with you Helen, about being suspicious of anything
     on that site. I have seen Mr. Finch in other contexts though.
     He was featured on a Fifth Estate program about transitioning.
     In addition to being a liar, he is also a media whore.

     Dennis

Then we have the fact that even though quoting my web site then making extensive and subjective claims about it neither this author, nor Mrs. Jeffreys ever attempted to contact me to fact check, nor to get the position of my web site or my self on the subject which is extremely unethical when making such broad-brush claims about it.

There is a common thread with Mr. Finch, and the other postop regret advocates I have recently seen. They have all stated at one point or another that they made false statements to their doctors and psychologists to get the end results they wanted. Once they got it, they realized that they made a mistake. Rather than accept responsibility for their actions and the role they played in their situation they blame the system for not protecting them from their own deception. 

I don't see how anyone can find it acceptable when someone who does so, attempts to turn around and then blame those medical professionals for not protecting them from their own deception.

The transgender community recognizes regret as a possible outcome but basically points out that these regret'ers made the choices they did, and they chose to have the surgery; and if they don't like it tough. No one forced them to climb up on that operating table. It is this lack of personal responsibility and culpability is what that the transgender community objects to.

If a transgender person is honest with themselves, and honest with the medical professionals who oversees their transition, anyone who would suffer from potential regret should be caught and excluded from the transition process long before they could reach an operating table. If they were not they have our sympathy Gender Reassignment is not for everyone.

Yet many of these people are attempting to prevent others from seeking treatment that medically recognized as the only truly successful solution for relieving severe gender dysphoria.

My web site has been in existence since 1996, and is the largest transgender community in the world. Between 1996 and 2014 I have seen perhaps 10-20 people stating that they regretted their surgery. I have seen thousands saying how happy they are to be finally themselves. 

I don't begrudge those who regret their surgery and would be happy to provide support to them. There are a couple of proviso's

1. They cannot hijack non-regret threads by members with post op regret posts.
2. They are welcome to discuss their situations, their regret, provided that is is not for the purpose of simply wallowing in self pity but instead is an active attempt to improve their lives.

Self pity has never helped anyone.

That is my point of view, which also makes it the point of view of my web site.

Susan,

You worked much of the night on the response.  You defended the site so that people like me can find others and find help.  I really hope you don't have to work today. 

Thank you doesn't over it,

Hugs,

Jen   

Quote from: JLT1 on November 14, 2014, 07:16:54 AM
Thank you doesn't over it,

I scroll down from propping the post and see I'm not the only one with this exact sentiment. Thank you really doesn't cover it. But
thank you, Susan, for this website, and for your outstanding, fact-based response to that article.

I don't known this my sound like an over simplistic response, but if some ones taking a knife to my genitals he/she better have my consent to be doing that and my own personal acceptance of whatever consequences if given that consent.

Quote from: Jill F on November 13, 2014, 09:47:29 PM
C'mon folks, we're not playing this game.  Please stop or this thread will end up getting locked.

Quote from: Cindy on November 14, 2014, 12:52:47 AM
Debating and discussion of such articles is important. This can and should be done in a logical and informative way.

Opinions will differ, that is why we debate. It is a healthy exchange of ideas.

The addition of snide like comments at the end of  posts belittles your opinion and accomplishes nothing except to make you look foolish and incapable of reasoned expression.

Please think when you post.

In a world where acceptance of trans*people is at best marginal I would have thought that lateral violence to each other would be seen as unproductive.

I apologize for my part in that. I'll also say thank you, Susan for pulling all that information up.

This situation is also a great primer on why it's so very important to watch what you say, and how you say it,  and to always consider how others will view your posts. Because people who wish to harm the transgender community will most certainly look for ammunition amongst these forums.

Quote from: Susan on November 14, 2014, 11:19:22 AM
This situation is also a great primer on why it's so very important to watch what you say, and how you say it,  and to always consider how others will view your posts. Because people who wish to harm the transgender community will most certainly look for ammunition amongst these forums.

I strongly agree and I am very appreciative of Susan for providing us with those pesky yet all important FACTS.

These discussions are important.  These issues are more than just important.  They are quite literally matters of life and death.  That fact cannot be overstated.  I am glad that the the forum has stepped up to their responsibility to maintain order without throwing anybody under the bus.

You all have a great day :)

Wow Susan. That was one hell of a well done response. I'd be interested to see how some people react to it. You simply can't argue against what you said there.

My parents used to counsel former cult members. Yes it's possible for someone to be so utterly convinced of something that they make profound, life-altering changes only to regret it later in life. No, I would not hold them responsible for those actions.

PS I'm not suggesting transsexuals are members of a cult although I do occasionally have to pinch myself! :laugh:

I good article in HuffPost about this topic.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

It is sad that certain people are so desperate, that they'll use anything to prove some transphobic point. I wonder how messed up these people are in their heads, in order to attack trans* folks, gay folks and whoever doesn't fit their perfect little bigot utopia. Oh, well. Life goes on, and I am doing fine.

Quote from: Paige on November 18, 2014, 02:17:30 PM
I good article in HuffPost about this topic.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

Good article, thanks!