Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if you ever miss having the freedom to walk around shirtless in public the way cis men do. Was it/Has it been a difficult adjustment?

I come at this from the opposite direction; I'm FAAB but going through my own gender journey. I'm not taking hormones or trying to pass, but I recently had a double mastectomy and "male-like" chest reconstruction. Prior to surgery I wondered if I might be some kind of "third gender" but post-surgery, I've actually felt my sense of womanness reinforced. Sometimes I think the driving factor for having the surgery was actually just the desire for topfreedom - a privilege people with dangling breasts are not afforded in most Western societies.  :-\

This seems to make people laugh in disbelief, but growing up in the country, most of the men and boys I knew were shirtless at home and around the neighborhood. We girls always had to wear an extra layer, much to the annoyance of this former tomboy.  >:( As soon as I moved out on my own I rediscovered the joy of relaxing in my boxer shorts...with the curtains closed and a shirt nearby to quickly cover up if I had to. I grew to really resent having to hide whenever I had to step outside or answer the door or something.

Those pendulous blobs caused me nothing but grief so I finally had them taken off. I even had complete nipple and areola removal so that there's absolutely no way somebody can pull out an ordinance telling me to cover up when I can turn around and say, "cover up what, exactly?"  ;D

Then last weekend I bought a pair of trunks, went to the beach and made my first semi-public shirtless debut.  8) Like I said, I don't pass at all and I got a LOT of stares. But to feel the sun on my back and the breeze blowing across my chest...and then the coolness of the water against my bare skin...absolutely glorious. It brought me to near-tears.

And yet most cis women don't seem to feel this way. I bring up topless equality and they usually start giggling and say that would never happen or else stare blankly at me for a second and go, "oh yeah, I guess it's not fair, but I really don't care."  ???

Many of you used to have this freedom and now it's gone. Does it bother you? Do you miss it? How do you cope with it?

Thanks for your thoughts,
V

I hated going around topless before, felt like something was missing.  Now I have the body I want, I feel more comfortable and can explain why I don't want to be topless.  So absolutely not missing it.

I just started HRT so I don't have the so-called problem of things hanging down yet, but I am looking forward to it. You can't miss something that you never really liked in the first place. I never did like the fact that I didn't have breasts, so I welcome the change. I can't wait to be needing to wear a bra because my breasts have grown.

Never did. It always felt somewhat wrong.

I never even showed my hair legs to the general public :P So I have nothing to miss :P. I have always been embarrassed about this body.

I don't really miss it, in fact whenever I'm not wearing a bra it feels weird lol. the only time when i was uncomfortable was at my friends pool party where he was the only one who knew i was trans

I never liked being shirtless, not even on the beach or pool.

As for top freedom, in NYC women can legally walk around topless as long as it is not being used as a business. During the summer months I see a few women exercising their freedom. I'm not sure if I will be doing that next summer... I rather doubt it.

Interesting question Vestyn, Thank you.  I have enjoyed the freedom to be nude whenever possible and appropriate.  We have public nude beaches but I am not really wanting to be on display so tend to find the deserted islands and other places to feel the breeze between my legs and the sun on my chest.  Now owning a couple of those blobs it does feel much more restrictive.  Initially i delighted in having bras, now it is special to go without and topless will only occur for me in the safest of places.  Perhaps if I had bottom surgery it might increase my overall confidence level but also the undesired interactions with guys on the make.  Like Rachel, i previously felt my feminine shadow as part of me missing.  I felt like my breasts were there all along but apparently invisible to others while my bottom bits were wrongfully attached extras.  I once asked my mom if they had sown them on me.

The big picture for me is too encourage maximum freedoms for all of us and to reduce the insecurities so many of us have about our bodies.

I never felt comfortable going shirtless either.  I almost never did it, and on those rare occasions when I did (swimming, for example), I always felt weird and awkward.

It's awesome that being able to do it has been such a positive experience for you though, Vestyn!  I can totally empathise with your need to feel comfortable about your body and what you can/can't do with it, even if we are total opposites on this particular question. :D

Never been to the swimming pool since 12yrs old, felt wrong/naked.

interesting.  i have never really gone out anywhere, even swimming without a t-shirt on other than when i was a little-little kid but cant remember.  first time i did something without a shirt on was when i was in the navy and always felt uncomfortable.

Quote from: Tessa James on November 14, 2014, 12:05:39 PMLike Rachel, i previously felt my feminine shadow as part of me missing.  I felt like my breasts were there all along but apparently invisible to others while my bottom bits were wrongfully attached extras.

id have to agree with tessa.  ive always felt and somewhat, seen myself as still having breasts (of a sort) even though they werent developed.  and always felt uncomfortable around others when i have my shirt off.  more-so around guys than girls.  even though i know guys wouldnt be looking, it always felt as though they were.

being pre-hrt still, i kinda wish i had something worth covering, and something worth being looked at, and had the parts physically, that my brain feels and tells me exist in these spots.

used to love swimming, but havent done so in a very long time. i generally just go to the beach now with friends to hang out... sometimes, once in a while, not very often actually, hmmmm,  i should go to the beach next summer more when i have time.

It was curious to read the responses above, there definitely is a trend... and yeah, I did not really enjoy that privilege either and whenI did (swimming in public) it always felt a bit wrong.

More than compensated for by the pleasure of feeling the summer sun on my naked shoulders when wearing narrow strapped summer dresses and feeling the air circulate around my body when wearing the same.

Other than that, I personally never had any hang-ups about going topless as I guy but, in spite of now having all the required parts in all the required places, would feel far less comfortable about going topless as a woman. I do however love wearing a two piece swimsuit..  :)
 

I don't even like going topless in my home, let alone outdoors.

No sense of loss here. And once I complete GCS, I am looking to see how good I look in a swimsuit, without that lower remaining bulge! :P

I've always disliked being topless in public. I love the beach but before hormones and before knowing what the word transgender meant I still hated being topless. It's always felt wrong for me.

Quote from: LizMarie on November 14, 2014, 12:41:17 PM
No sense of loss here. And once I complete GCS, I am looking to see how good I look in a swimsuit, without that lower remaining bulge! :P

Last year I posted about swimming pools and thought I'd never be comfortable going there again because of that bulge.  Since then I found swimsuits with a miniskirt or ruffle that covers just great and have been in public pools and a sauna without problems.  Most people are having enough of there own fun or insecurities about their body image to worry about us.

Well, I don't walk around shirtless.  Not many people have seen me shirtless unless they are intimate with me.. even then, still would like to keep shirt on.  I have a b cup size breasts, so a person presenting guy and has breasts walking around shirtless isn't going to happen.  Transitioning, at home I have my door locked and just in my bra... when my fiance' is around I don't mind him seeing me shirtless.... feels better than before :)

I'm somewhere in between... I miss the convenience of not having to put a bra on to go outside, and I'll have a passing moment of annoyance when it's *really* hot outside, but for the most part I don't miss it. I hardly ever took my shirt off in public even before, and as others have said, it felt wrong/naked to do so even without visible breasts.

(Just as well, since I lost the ability to go out braless, much less topless, by a few weeks into HRT!)

I think I have more hang ups of showing my boobs in situations where if I were to be presenting as male to not have my top off. I most certainly would do everything in my power to keep my chest covered/disguised in such a scenario.

Being shirtless was in my opinion largely a male privilege. I hated being male, to be compared against the other true males showing off their ripped chests and me with my weak flabby arms, beer gut and squidgy pecs.

I am much more comfortable having a reason to keep my top covered. My arms are even more weedy and thanks to muscle loss even the upper arms are starting to develop bingo wings. The spare tyre around my waist has gone. My squidgy man breasts have developed into a proper womanly shape. If I were in a safe environment I would take my top off and show my chest off with pride, but only under a bra that was meant to be worn in public of course. I must of course support my boobies :)

Quote from: Railgun on November 14, 2014, 11:53:09 AM
Never did. It always felt somewhat wrong.

That pretty much explains me. Even as a kid I never went around without a shirt. It just didn't feel right to me. And then when I hit puberty and slight gynecomastia I really couldn't shirtless.

But yeah without a shirt just never seemed right. In private no problem being topless but never in public. Even in Gym Classes in school and shirts and skins games I made sure I was never skins. If so, I would have some severe case of something to have to go to the bathroom.

This is kind of interesting thread though and good to know that I ain't alone in it not feeling right.

I'm pretty open and a bit of a nudist, but that said I've only had recognizable breasts for a bit more than two years, and wearing a halter top or bikini top is still fun.  That and I'm old enough to me most peoples grandmother, so the rules for me are pretty lax.  For swimming I will wear a bikini bottom with a little tape for a gaff and then boy shorts, and on top whatever I want.  I like thin cover ups and saris.  I like to expose my legs and a little flat belly.  Careful I'll break into song. "I enjoy being a girl"  The nice thing about being trans and being old is I have the cutest breasts on the beach, the other old women are nothing but jealous.  ;)

Julie

no i don't miss it at all. i enjoy the fact i have to wear a bra, i love wearing them... I have a pair of 36D breasts, so the support is welcome.

I can admit, i am not shy to walk topless.. in my yard, i often sunbathe topless, only wearing a g-string. I do go to beaches were they allow topless sunbathing.. where i will even walk around topless, even go for swim while topless.... so maybe i still get my shirtless experience as a woman

I always hated being topless... I think I managed to almost completely avoid doing so in my life, mostly by not ever learning to swim. :P

I wouldn't mind doing it now though at the appropriate beach, if only I had anything worth showing off...

I never really liked being topless xD I hated my body & I always wanted to cover it up. I was a chubby child though so that's why probably. I had started losing weight after my RLE so being completely topless happened rarely.

I never went around in public shirtless anyway, so nope.

no

Which isn't to say I won't exercise some top freedom now! ;)

A few times I have played basketball "shirts vs skins" when I was still in denial, pre HRT of course. Still akward because I have always shaved my armpits and chest since I've had to.

Do I miss having topfreedom?

Never really liked going topless. Unless I was swimming, I always had on at least a T-shirt. (I felt awkward when my chest was undressed, but didn't know why at the time).

Now I rock a swimsuit top in the summer or when swimming! I love it!!

^-^

For me growing up a chubby kid never experienced the freedom of going shirtless. Hell when I swam in a pool or at the river on the farm had a shirt on. Great farmers tan. Now that I'm in shape I try to wear as less as possible. I call them my tit and tattoo tops

Kind of. Wearing a bra sucked yesterday in almost 40 degree heat.

Quote from: kaye on November 14, 2014, 06:54:48 PM
Kind of. Wearing a bra sucked yesterday in almost 40 degree heat.

Tell me about it! It was 40^ here too, but we had to wear heavy coats!

Oh wait...are you talking Celsius?  :-*

Quote from: Beth Andrea on November 14, 2014, 07:09:52 PM
Tell me about it! It was 40^ here too, but we had to wear heavy coats!

Oh wait...are you talking Celsius?  :-*

Yup because celsius is the global temperature standard :P

Reading all of these responses has been really interesting and enlightening, thank you for your many thoughts and comments. :)

It seems like most women here were never comfortable going topless in the first place - why do you think that is? (Besides the weight concerns, etc.) Why is being topless such a "man's thing?" To me it always seemed like an *efficient* and *practical* thing. How nice to not have to deal with the extra accoutrement! Especially now, I've been living a few degrees north of the equator for 3 years in an apartment without air conditioning, so it's been like clockwork: come home, fan on, shirt and bra off. Relax. (And then: Is that a knock at the door? SCRAMBLE AROUND; OMG, WHERE'S MY SHIRT??)  ::)

Once I had a couple of male couchsurfers staying in my apartment. I'll never forget the resentment I felt when, with the three of us relaxing at home, I was uncharacteristically but necessarily wearing a shirt and bra and sweating bullets while they - guests in my home! - were lying around comfortably shirtless, completely oblivious to my envy.

I just got so fed up with the double-standard. I don't understand why more women don't feel this way.  :(

I never went shirtless in public and it always kinda bothered me that anyone did so no I don't miss it.

My conscious mind reasoned "having a shirt protects against UV rays", while my emotional mind was embarrassed to expose my nips...which at the time I thought was an irrational anxiety, but I just piled it on top of all the other irrational anxieties I had.

Quote from: Vestyn on November 14, 2014, 09:35:06 PM
Reading all of these responses has been really interesting and enlightening, thank you for your many thoughts and comments. :)

It seems like most women here were never comfortable going topless in the first place - why do you think that is? (Besides the weight concerns, etc.) Why is being topless such a "man's thing?" To me it always seemed like an *efficient* and *practical* thing. How nice to not have to deal with the extra accoutrement! Especially now, I've been living a few degrees north of the equator for 3 years in an apartment without air conditioning, so it's been like clockwork: come home, fan on, shirt and bra off. Relax. (And then: Is that a knock at the door? SCRAMBLE AROUND; OMG, WHERE'S MY SHIRT??)  ::)

Once I had a couple of male couchsurfers staying in my apartment. I'll never forget the resentment I felt when, with the three of us relaxing at home, I was uncharacteristically but necessarily wearing a shirt and bra and sweating bullets while they - guests in my home! - were lying around comfortably shirtless, completely oblivious to my envy.

I just got so fed up with the double-standard. I don't understand why more women don't feel this way.  :(

Because it may be way deeper than what anyone can imagine or guess. Even the most educated and intellecutaul among us. It really nakes no sense. I, even as a small child, never felt comfortable without a shirt.

Personally I think it is way deeper in our Psychies than even psychologists and psychiatrists can even begin to imagine. I donlt mind the nudist thing like Julie mentioned, trans or not.

Quote from: Hikari on November 14, 2014, 09:38:55 PM
I never went shirtless in public and it always kinda bothered me that anyone did so no I don't miss it.

I never could but a guy with some hellacious pecs though. Where is the line. Not to mention if he can flex them. :embarrassed: OK I am going to shut up now.

In high school I had a friend who was shirtless every possible minute he could get away with it.  I never understood it.

Quote from: kaye on November 14, 2014, 08:12:54 PM
Yup because celsius is the global temperature standard :P

What is this "global" thing you speak of?  In America we use the real degrees...Fahrenheit.  :)

I never walked around sans shirt. Never. I was too obese at one point and now that I'm skinny I have definite breast growth from HRT.

I remember the only time when my parents came to Australia from the UK to visit me. I took them on a house boat trip and Mum took a pic of me walking through the bush just wearing shorts, she loved that pic and had it framed in her house. I hated it and burnt the copy she sent me.

She knew that I was trans* but could never accept it, I think the pic helped her 'validate' that she had the son that she so desired, while it just triggered my dysphoria completely.

PS
Just posted this and then looked at the post, seeing my avatar and had the immediate thought, no way was I ever a guy :laugh:

Firstly I've always said that guys walking around in public (beaches, swimming pools are ok) without a shirt on is just so off putting for me. To me I can tell how full of themselves they are and want nothing to do with them. Now that topless selfie is a thing, chances are you send me a topless selfie you'll be blocked before you know it.

Before I came out I never went without a shirt/top, I was skinny, hated my body and then I started high school, which I had bruises everyday, so the top stayed on.

Up until maybe my 18 months of HRT started in June, summer for us is Dec, Jan & Feb I still had tiny's so my I would wear a singlet at the beach, 18 months into HRT I would rock the bikini top and have ever since.

I have been to topless beaches, even ones that aren't and removed the top, only around my female friends and people I don't know.

Miss top freedom? Well, let's see. The reason why I can't walk around topless? Because I have breasts. Tiny little ones, yes, but fully sensate, beautiful, amazing, wonderful, fantastic breasts. Something I've always wanted. I look down there and am awestruck at how lucky I am to have these incredible body parts.

Er ... what was the question again?

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 16, 2014, 05:57:00 PM
Miss top freedom? Well, let's see. The reason why I can't walk around topless? Because I have breasts. Tiny little ones, yes, but fully sensate, beautiful, amazing, wonderful, fantastic breasts. Something I've always wanted. I look down there and am awestruck at how lucky I am to have these incredible body parts.

Er ... what was the question again?

Suzi you totally make me smile :)

I still have top freedom... it's called going to nudist camps. :P

In all seriousness, though, nah, I never really cared about the ability to be shirtless in public. I always wore a shirt unless I was swimming. And even though I did use that privilege when I went swimming, frankly I'd rather have the freedom to wear a bikini bottom or tight thin athletic shorts than the freedom to not wear a shirt. Male swimming trunks, and male shorts in general, always felt needlessly cumbersome and hot to me. So it's a trade-off. Yes, you have to deal with sweaty boobs because of the extra layer on top, but you also don't have to deal with a ton of stuffy hot air trapped in your upper leg area because of the needless length and bulk of male shorts.

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 16, 2014, 05:57:00 PM
The reason why I can't walk around topless? Because I have breasts.

Now see, that's exactly my point. Why should *having breasts* preclude anyone from being comfortable? If I had had the same topfreedom pre-surgery, there's a pretty good chance I wouldn't have felt so much of an urge to radically change my body.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on November 17, 2014, 03:04:07 AM...I'd rather have the freedom to wear a bikini bottom or tight thin athletic shorts than the freedom to not wear a shirt. Male swimming trunks, and male shorts in general, always felt needlessly cumbersome and hot to me. So it's a trade-off. Yes, you have to deal with sweaty boobs because of the extra layer on top, but you also don't have to deal with a ton of stuffy hot air trapped in your upper leg area because of the needless length and bulk of male shorts.

Oh, agreed*. And at 5'3", my stubby legs look absolutely ridiculous in men's shorts, anyway, so I don't even bother.  :P Few cis people seem to think about it much, but when it comes to freedom of expression, women seem to have such greater breadth than men do (in Western society, that is) - from clothing to accessories to vocal intonation to hand gestures. Whenever I feel pressure to try to pass in some way, like when I'm shirtless and being studied for it, I automatically try to "wooden" my movements and flatten my intonation. And it feels just as constricting, in my opinion. I like to be EMOTIVE! and FREE!

Carrie Liz, what if society had said you could wear those shorts  - or that skirt - without having to present as a woman? Would your dysphoria have still been as pressing, do you think? (That's a very personal question - it's not meant to be directed only at Carrie Liz).

*To be fair, I don't think the comparison between men's thighs and women's chests is entirely fair through, in my opinion, since there are no *laws* requiring men to keep their knees covered...)

I've always been timid and trying to hide my chest while outside growing up but I think that was partially embarrassment - as a MAAB I managed to have little pointy knobby breast buds start when I was 11 that didn't really go anywhere. Granted I was meek before that anyway.

I don't miss being shirtless in public. The sun is actively trying to ruin my lovely monitor glow, and shaving my legs is more like a once or twice a year thing. I like having boobs, I like people admiring them, and just because I don't go out topless doesn't mean I can't romp around my house topless...

... I just take the stairs a little more gingerly now. ^_^;;;;

Quote from: Vestyn on November 17, 2014, 07:47:51 AM
Carrie Liz, what if society had said you could wear those shorts  - or that skirt - without having to present as a woman? Would your dysphoria have still been as pressing, do you think? (That's a very personal question - it's not meant to be directed only at Carrie Liz).

Pre-transition, I basically said "okay, you know what? I don't have to be a girl to freely express myself. To hell with what anyone thinks, I'm wearing short-shorts again, and I'm acting like I want to act." And I did start freely expressing myself in feminine ways... wore short shorts, wore tighter-fitting v-neck t-shirts made from softer material, started shaving my legs and arms again, started wearing panties, (which are WAY softer than the equivalent men's briefs,) and I started acting in a softer manner, using greater vocal range, intentionally being sweeter and more open to people, and basically doing EVERYTHING that I could to try and act exactly how I wanted and dress how I wanted.

It still wasn't enough. For some people who think they have dysphoria, maybe it might just be because of the bulls*** societal gender restrictions placed on them, but in my case it really was because there was no way for me to be comfortable in a male body. Even when I was acting and dressing exactly how I wanted, I still felt dysphoria about the male bulk of my body, my muscles, my thicker skin, my genitals, my blocky shape, my sex-drive, my emotions, and being treated as male socially. So basically I'd exhausted my options and the only choice left was to transition.

It did ease my dysphoria somewhat, (and my dysphoria wasn't as bad back in 8th grade, back when I was still singing soprano in choir, wearing short-shorts, shaving, acting much more effeminately, and was still in the early stages of puberty,) but regardless of all of that, the dysphoria was still there. I was still wishing that I was a girl back then. It's just that once I stopped being openly effeminate for the sake of not being teased, I added a feeling of being stifled, of being unable to express myself at all, on top of the gender dysphoria. Which turned it from a lingering nagging "I wish" thought into something that made me feel completely trapped and depressed.

I think school/gym class was the worst. I some how forgot my gym clothes the days I knew they were playing sports were they had two teams..........skins and shirts.

Nope I always felt naked like other girls... I still do lol it's not like I have noticeable breast anyway XD I hated it so much when I was forced to do be shirtless for swimming at school... Fortunately this is my last year

Quote from: Serena ♡ on November 17, 2014, 02:53:17 PM
Nope I always felt naked like other girls... I still do lol it's not like I have noticeable breast anyway XD I hated it so much when I was forced to do be shirtless for swimming at school... Fortunately this is my last year

After this one from Serena. Is it just something we feel? I didn't get anything until 13 (Yeah a little bit of a freak of nature. Don't care though) and there is no reason why I felt like I did and have to wear a shirt at 9 or 10 years old. Must be the same with hair length too. Am I my parent's son(Ughh ::)) or am I and we way more than that?

I always hated going shirtless.  When I was swimming, it always felt wrong.  When I was picked last for basketball teams, I always seemed to get stuck on the "skins" team.   I tried surfing because at least you could wear a wetsuit.  When I was a real porker, I didn't even want my wife to see me shirtless, even with B-cup moobs.  Then I got skinny.  Nope.  Then I put on 25 pounds of muscle on top of that.  I actually looked pretty good, objectively speaking, and I tried parading around shirtless because I thought I was supposed to like looking good that way.  Nope, still hated it.  Then the dysphoria hit like a ton of bricks.

It always sort of felt weird to me as well. I would do it but didn't particularly like it, wasn't really comfortable. I think the only time I would do so was if I was at the beach or a pool. After I was done and dried I would put it back on though. My friends would do so quite a bit when playing sports like hockey or volleyball or again at the pool or beach, and be like that the whole time, and I wondered why, its not like it cools you down that much, being shirtless...