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OK so I made it through my surgery just fine, Im alive and well and I just got home today :)

So this will be my thread on Dr Habens voice feminization surgery that Im sure others will be interested in...

First I guess I will show a pic of the Drs work...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh170%2FEvaMarie45%2Fimg003_zpsfc0614b9.jpg&hash=ff089fcf63c4599d925bad8e4187553489653de1)

These are my vocal cords... They are now 1/3rd shorter, that HOLE you see is on both sides and I believe they are stitched closed... That made them thinner and shorter.... The doc said "Im confident this will be all you need to put your voice into the female range"... This was all done endoscopic, no incision on my neck...

He said I will keep all of my dynamic range and power and I should be able to even sing if I want to eventually :o  I hope so that would be cool 8)

BUT first I have to complete 1 week strict no talking at all... Been two days so far and its been hard to do, especially traveling home to SD from NY yesterday all by myself... I had the travel day from hell, 2 layovers, 2 delayed flights... Had to RUN just to barely board one on time only to be delayed 45 minutes to de ice when it started snowing at Ohare...

Anyway thats over... Im amazed it didnt hurt a lot more than it did... It sure LOOKS like it should hurt!!!

Really not bad at all though... I was under for about 2 hours... No problem coming out of anesthesia and surprizingly very little discomfort... For the first day just a little itch in my throat that was easily relieved with ice chips and ice water... LOTS of ice and water really helped... I went out to NY alone and stayed overnight in the hospital for an extra $300.00... Money well spent I thought... It was nice to have so many nurses there to look after me and they took great care of me  ;D

So after a week I was told to expect it to actually be worse than it was... it will take a month just to get rid of the hoarseness and "surgical laryngitis"... I have slipped and talked a few times and aside from one time close after the surgery its sounded TERRIBLE... There was one accidental "Hi" in reply to a nurse that sounded absolutely incredible though 8)

I had to kid the doc and ask him if he really actually did anything??? Really surprisingly little discomfort :)

The day after surgery Dr Haben checked everything out (he definitely did a lot  ;) ) and it all looked good even to my untrained eye  8)

He said "thats exactly how it should look, healing very well, couldnt look better"... He said in about a month I should be happy but it will take three months to fully heal... He said to call him back in three months to record an after to go with my before recordings....

It will be a while before I can post any before and after recordings but I plan to... Hopefully this works out...

I should add that his staff were very helpful in setting all this up and it all went very smooth... Dr Haben is a great guy and its obvious they have done this kind of thing before... He told me he's done 500 of these operations... He did not do a CTA on me, the laser thinning was a substitute method I chose... He would have just done the web glottoplasty for a reduced rate if I wanted to though... I decided against the CTA because I dont want the scar for one and also Im planning facial feminization surgery in March with Dr Zukowski in Chicago...  With the face and neck lift planned its just too unpredictable to do the incision and trach shave and scar... I will have Dr Z do the trach shave and FFS and then If Im not happy with my voice Dr Haben can do a CTA in addition to whats been done... I doubt thats gonna be needed though 8)

If you don't mind sharing, what's the cost with Dr Haben, and how long in advance do you schedule?

Yeson seems like where most are going but a US surgeon would be appealing for a number of reasons, namely that drugs and some monitoring (labs, tests) would be covered by insurance. Plus his location is NY is not far from me, well it's not halfway across the world far!

QuoteThere are no dietary restrictions after the surgery. Sometimes taste will be altered post operatively
for up to a month or so. This is due to the pressure of the scope on the tongue causing a "Charlie-
hoarse" on the taste nerve during the 'endoscopic' portion of the procedure. This is annoying,
however it is expected to fully resolve in time. Please be patient.

http://professionalvoice.org/pdf/feminization_laryngoplasty_post-op.pdf

OK so its WEIRD I actually have this strange loss of taste :'( NOTHING tastes good, kinda scary I hope it goes away soon.... Whats weird is I didnt have this right after surgery, it seems to have creeped up very slowly....

I guess I will use it as an opportunity to try to lose a few pounds by eating less, very disconcerting though :o

Quote from: ImagineKate on November 15, 2014, 09:44:20 AM
If you don't mind sharing, what's the cost with Dr Haben, and how long in advance do you schedule?

Yeson seems like where most are going but a US surgeon would be appealing for a number of reasons, namely that drugs and some monitoring (labs, tests) would be covered by insurance. Plus his location is NY is not far from me, well it's not halfway across the world far!

Hi it cost me $7350.00 and that included and overnight stay in the hospital post op... Thats an extra $300.00.... Id say having someone with you to take care of you at the hotel would be doable but.... I really was glad I stayed in the hospital... Very nice to have all the friendly nurses and staff taking great care of me.... I went alone though, it was apparent to me that they have this all worked out though and it was all impressively smooth....
There was about $70.00 additional for two additional cab rides I had to pay and meals I didnt have at the hospital and of course my airfare.... This is pretty accurate....

http://professionalvoice.org/pdf/feminization_info_and_cost_sheet.pdf

I booked my surgery about 6 weeks out...

I had a few instances last night where quickly out of nowhere Id get a STRONG urge to cough...

Luckily I was able to easily control that by chewing up a sugar free cough drop and swallowing it ;D

Also just sipping water helps a lot with the urge to clear my throat...

Almost NO pain at all today, just a very slight sensation of having a sore throat but really not bad at all... 4 more days to go, cant wait to try it out 8)

Quote from: Eva on November 15, 2014, 10:26:02 AM
Hi it cost me $7350.00 and that included and overnight stay in the hospital post op... Thats an extra $300.00.... Id say having someone with you to take care of you at the hotel would be doable but.... I really was glad I stayed in the hospital... Very nice to have all the friendly nurses and staff taking great care of me.... I went alone though, it was apparent to me that they have this all worked out though and it was all impressively smooth....
There was about $70.00 additional for two additional cab rides I had to pay and meals I didnt have at the hospital and of course my airfare.... This is pretty accurate....

http://professionalvoice.org/pdf/feminization_info_and_cost_sheet.pdf

I booked my surgery about 6 weeks out...

That's not bad. I'm no stranger to upstate NY and I would be very comfortable there. It's an option to consider. Thanks. Keep us apprised of your progress. I would be very interested in your final result.

I've been looking at the website and he has very few examples, unlike Ye Son who has a ton. Hopefully when I'm ready to consider it there will be more.
http://professionalvoice.org/feminization.aspx

Yes I was kinda surprised and perplexed to hardly be able to find anything out there good or bad about Dr Haben... What I did find was pretty much all good and really nothing bad to be found...

Apparently he's been doing this for years now but there's NOTHING to be found out there for before and afters...

There was one thread here that was very impressive that helped me make up my mind....

So I just made a leap of faith and I figured that if what he is doing was giving bad results Id be able to find something out there... I donna maybe the result is so good his patients just slip away into obscurity living as women with great voices ;D

Im gonna find out first hand soon and I do intend to post some results here ;)

I hope your recovery goes well Eva, please keep us updated as I'd rather go to NY as it is much closer to me than South Korea!

Thanks Alena, I will do that... I think its pretty sad American women must go all the way to Korea for VFS...

OK last night was kinda rough... There is an annoying itch thing going on... I can deal with it but it would be nice if it wasnt there... I guess I gotta be realistic and expect some discomfort 4 days post op.... 3 more days... I dont think its gonna sound very good at first though judging by the way its sounded when Ive slipped and talked though...

Dr Haben told me to be psychologically prepared for it to get WORSE before it gets better though...

There is a psychological aspect to this I wasnt expecting... Its PERMANENT and there is a VERY good chance I'll NEVER be able to talk like a man again ;D

Im kinda early in here... I first came out one year ago only to an old friend... 2 months later I started an herbal feminization regime that to my amazement was actually somewhat effective... 2 months into that I started laser and shortly after that electro as well....  I did the herbal stuff for three months and then decided I to quit messing around and start HRT... Shortly after that I was out to everyone...
7 months later and here I am ;D  I went "fulltime" from the beginning though.... It just gets easier and better by the day now :)

OK so much better last night and this morning.... Absolutely no discomfort at all... So it felt so good and normal this morning I had to try to say something... Well no not yet... Nothing at all came out, also just doing that brought a little bit of discomfort...  SO I will shut up, only two days left before Im supposed to be able to start talking though.... I hope it gets at least usable by then because there are things I need to do that will require talking, not much talking but I gotta be able to talk... Terrible voice or not its just gotta get done...

I do notice my sense of taste is MUCH better this morning so thats good, thats pretty scary to lose!!! I have dropped 5 lbs since having  this surgery... Gonna try to keep that off ::)

Thanks for the updates, Eva! I'm so excited to hear your result!

No problem Kate, nothing better to do here for now anyway but mope around and recover ;)

OK so my voice is coming back but WOW is it BAD  :(

Im clear to start gently talking again tomorrow... I just tried to say a few words and it sounded pretty weird...

A good thing is my sense of taste seems to be a lot better this morning...
Its real weird the way its been coming and going, but at least its getting better...

Both are supposed to be "normal" but there really is nothing normal about this whole deal!!!

Oh well one more day.... Its feeling nearly 100% now though and little grunts and groans do have a more fem sound to them anyway  :laugh:

SO glad I got this done in NY and made it home before the SNOW they are getting now, 20+ inches in like 12 hours :o

It was 65 when I was there  :P I would have been so screwed and stressed out if I was there now!!!

What causes the loss of taste? I never heard that before - but you say it is normal. What happens there? Is it from the botox?

Hi Anjaq apparently its from the pressure put on the taste nerve from the endoscope...

QuoteThere are no dietary restrictions after the surgery. Sometimes taste will be altered post operatively
for up to a month or so. This is due to the pressure of the scope on the tongue causing a "Charlie-
hoarse" on the taste nerve during the 'endoscopic' portion of the procedure. This is annoying,
however it is expected to fully resolve in time. Please be patient.

http://professionalvoice.org/pdf/feminization_laryngoplasty_post-op.pdf

It's getting better quick though, still comes and goes, very weird :o

I know Im not supposed to talk until tomorrow but I had a couple things that had to get done today.... I had to talk... Its nowhere near good at all yet and unfortunately a little sore after using it... I shouldnt have done that but it really was feeling better...

I hope I didnt mess anything up... No pain but it is a bit like a mild sore throat  :'(

No Botox here... I didnt have anything wrong at all with my vocal cords though except for the male part :'(

OK so I can officially start talking today.... Well I can say that for the first few words at least I can definitely hear a slightly higher pitch with zero effort to raise my voice ;D 8)

Unfortunately its still very weak and it gives out after just a few words :( If I make an effort to raise my pitch nothing much happens at all...

I guess I just gotta give it time and take it easy... 

OK here is a quick recording I made on my way out the door prior to surgery... He's even a more dead now and that makes me very happy thinking I will never have to be haunted by hearing "him" anymore  ;D

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1OS7t8CfKoW

Here's a recording from about a month ago right before I made the decision to have the surgery... I put this one on here because this is really about as good as it ever got after nearly 11 months of near constant effort and 6 months of living very full time...

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0uMx3tDaH77

One more before natural/trained... Neither were any good for the way Im living now...

http://vocaroo.com/i/s09KFwxcqEi7

Here is a recording 7 days post op, it can only get better Id think!!!

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1DQzdJlwXhu

Im barely able to talk but I already cant get anywhere as deep as I could and I know it will just go higher in time  ;D I can hear a breathy quality and higher pitch and resonance I never heard before... BUT its still real bad and this is literally all I can do, I have really bad "surgical laryngitis"..

OK getting better today ;D

Still very hoarse and definitely "surgical laryngitis"... In this recording Im not making an effort to raise my voice... I cant really raise or lower it much yet, this is about all I can do.... Right now Im just happy to be able to talk at all!!! The thing is though I CANT go lower and Im anticipating this ending being my absolute bottom end which is MUCH higher than my old voice... I used to be able to go down to 45hz!!! Id say in time its going to be very easy for me to stay in the female range permanently.... I am loving the sound occasionally when it seems to clear up and go higher, very fem ;D

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1BR7RMJv2wH

i hope you recover well, i am very interested in hearing your fully healed results

Thanks, Me too!!!  ;D 8)

8 days post op doesn't sound that bad.

Your old "f-ing voice" was pretty low... I'm amazed at the difference, in a month or so it should be better?

Hi Kate, thanks  ;D It had better be a lot better in a month its already been 8 days!!!

Its still REALLY weak right now and I could barely even record that... I did three hours of electrolysis today, my electro lady said "it definitely sounds different and there is a new quality to it thats not too bad".... My GF's all say "way better already".... I donno it sure doesnt last long, it pretty much gave out after all in all not much talking with electro woman :'(

Weird thing, NO PAIN at all but it sounds terrible :o

A little better this morning... 10 days post op....

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1O1QxlOsv2R

 I was told it will take up to two months to really start to sound anywhere near good, I have to try to remember that.... Im just VERY impatient  ::)  At least so far though it at least sounds natural and not really weird or way too high... I was really scared of that... I made another recording this morning and while its better its not much better... Maybe just a bit stronger and higher but still pretty monotone.... I wont bother updating this every day :) Im sure Id benefit from pro speech therapy but there is none to be found around here... Im hoping that in time as it improves and I become less self conscious about my voice (IT WAS TERRIBLE) it will all just kinda fall into place...

From what I gather though what this surgery will do for me is make the break into falsetto very smooth to even nonexistent... There are times Im surprising myself with the girly noises Im making, its done a very good thing in eliminating a lot of the deeper resonance... I definitely CANT go anywhere near as deep as it used to be and that right there is HUGE to me  ;D  I guess thats my biggest fear, that the low end will come back, still some there but different in a good way....  Im hoping this is the absolute bottom and the higher end opens up, OK I guess for only 12 days post op.... Cut off the low end and I will find a way to develop and increase the range of the high end in time... I can hear a similarity to my old trained voice, its close but there is ZERO effort to raise it, its there without trying at all... Id think as everything heals it will be very easy to get into the lower female range PERMANENTLY... Then I just have to work on inflection and prosody, "talk like a woman"  8)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s17cAkzwlzmZ

You're sounding a little better but the surgical laryngitis is taking its toll.

Based on the Yeson threads they don't sound "good" until about a month in.

If I were you I'd rest your voice as much as possible.

So it looks like your pre-op voice was pretty low - 85Hz. Now your post op voice is around 150Hz. That's about 65Hz and actually not bad of a raise, considering what you started with. With these kinds of surgeries it does go up over time so I'm curious to see how you do in a month! If you can get to at least 170-180Hz you would be pretty good.

Thanks Kate, yes my old voice was very low... Im paranoid it will come back!!!!  In time though Im sure I will forget all about it though ;D

I did have "laser thinning" in addition to the web... I was told the laser thinning would further increase pitch and cut off the lower end... Also its supposed to make it a bit more "breathy", He said however that the recovery will be longer...

He said to expect 8 notes or about 80 hz increase...Add that to lets say 100 hz and thats OK, Im hoping to at least get to 200hz or higher though ;) I mean I could pretty comfortably do 180hz before and very comfortably 150-160 hz...

Yes I really should just shut the hell up for a while!!! LOL :)

So remind me again what Dr Haben's procedure is?

I know Dr Kim (Yeson) basically ties off 1/3 of the vocal cords. No laser or anything and it's all endoscopic.

What does Dr Haben do? You said he does laser thinning of the vocal cords but does he do something similar to Yeson as well?

Well he tied off 1/3rd of the vocal cords, Im not sure if he does it exactly the same as Yeson but Id think the effect will be similar...

The laser thinning I was told will reduce the mass of the vocal cords... So they are shorter from the web and also thinner... Should raise the frequency they vibrate at... 

Awesome! Anyway get some rest, hope to hear your new voice in a month. Get some rest. Don't get too impatient, you don't want to end up like Patty and Selma from the Simpsons... lol.

As time goes on i must say your voice is sounding better and better!
Its hoarse now for sure but once your fully healed it seems like itll sound wonderful!!!!
Please keep us updated!  im about 2 hours away from upstate NY and id much rather go there then korea c :

THANKS and YES Its getting better fast now!!! Its still hoarse and it still breaks up but now I keep hearing formerly masculine but now REALLY FEM grunts and groans that Im just LOVING ;D

I also keep surprising myself with my voice, I live alone and only really mutter to myself or my dog.... I forget all about it sometimes then mumble something and its like WOAH!!! I like that sound I just made :o

I'll do another recording tomorrow I think... Got some business I gotta do on the phone tomorrow, that should be an interesting test....

NO regrets aside from not doing it sooner so far ;D 8)

do keep us posted and i agree might wanna rest your voice as much as possible : )

Awesome, Eva!!!

THANKS!!!! Seems its at the lower female range already 2 weeks post op ;D

I cant figure out PRATT, I use Speech Analyzer....
http://www-01.sil.org/computing/catalog/show_software.asp?id=57

And I cant figure all of that out either but it does work for me to check my pitch... in this recording Im still pretty monotone but the pitch seems centered in the 160-200 hz range and thats with ZERO effort to raise my voice 8)

Still pretty weak but its slowly getting stronger and it seems like the pitch is slowly increasing as well  ;D

The low end is GONE!!! Hopefully never to return and the higher end will continue to open up...

Before any of this I could do from low to high with just speech from 45-350hz... My cords were in pretty good shape despite many years of heavy smoking... I seem to be healing well and Im hoping to eventually have an effortless FO right around 200 hz or higher ;D

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Fjew091Nb5

Praat is easy, Jenny has a nice tutorial in the sticky. Just open the file, zoom 10 seconds and show analyses with pitch and formants to see any resonance issues.

I donno I cant figure PRAAT out ???

My voice was and still is my biggest challenge...

Its been healing good though and Ive noticed its pretty easy for me to talk in the female range now where as before I could only do that with a TON of effort...

I still have an annoying male resonance and I unfortunately can still go pretty deep with it... That resonance seems WAY easier to control now though... I still have no falsetto voice yet but in this recording Its easy to talk in the 200-260hz range  ;D

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0l1cQsEsHj0

For 3 weeks post op I think its pretty good, Im hoping to see a bit more of a rise in pitch and Im sure I will...

Its hard for me to get my prosody and inflection right just talking to my computer... Talking on the phone to women and with my girlfriends however is different story and when its right I can just feel it and when its wrong I can also feel it... Its going to take time to learn to modulate pitch and get the resonance right but I do notice my brain is at least letting me know when its right now... It FEELS better, pretty cool  8)

At least now though the real deep BASS is GONE though, got a new guy Im gonna try it with and see how that works out  ;)

You sound like you're healing up really good, Eva!

One question, did Dr Haben do it all endoscopically or did he make an incision? If he did, is it visible?

Hi Kate, no incisions here ;)

One month today.... Much better but still hopefully more to come... Im kinda disappointed I can still go as low as I can but its not healed all the way yet... Id hope as it heals and I get used to talking in the higher range the low end will just disappear... It still comes and goes, but there have been a few times the top end has cleared up that really give me hope this is gonna be good :o  Its neat because if I use the same muscles in my throat that gave me my old voice the new one is WAY higher... Its still not healed yet, when it does Im really looking forward to working on it 8)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s06vLW4nFsPr

wow. your really sounding better and better every time

Thanks Im hoping for a lot more high end as it continues to heal  :)

I think if one really wants to go low, it will always go rather low, though not as low as before, but low enough to be in a male range - the key would be that the relaxed speaking voice should be much higher, as this is what is used daily. Many women can go really low in the voice if they force it, so that is maybe not the best measure

You actually sound pretty good. Not super high but I would gender it female on the phone. I'm wondering though why dr Haben only tied off 1/3 of the vocal chords. Dr Kim/Yeson seems to tie off more, I think Jenny had 1/2 of hers tied off. The laser also seems like it would increase healing time.

But it's still a pretty good result. Looking forward to your 3 month and beyond!

I also think for a 1 month is is pretty good. considering Yeson patients are just barely allowed speaking again after that period of time :P - so most recordings from Yeson petients are 2 months post op.

AFAIK, at Yeson, Dr Kim also usually does a 1/3 suture but no additional laser treatment. For somy mysterious reason this seems to work. In some cases however he recommends the 1/2 suture, Jenny had that and I think a very few others. Usually 1/3 seems to be enough, but it seems individual

Quote from: anjaq on December 12, 2014, 03:34:07 PM
I think if one really wants to go low, it will always go rather low, though not as low as before, but low enough to be in a male range - the key would be that the relaxed speaking voice should be much higher, as this is what is used daily. Many women can go really low in the voice if they force it, so that is maybe not the best measure

Hmm. In the Yeson thread, J-mi was trying to go low and she sounded like she couldn't. It sounded really like a girl trying to sound like a dude and failing in the worst way possible.

Well - low and low may be different ;) - lets say you start with a voice like mine - lowest possible is 80 Hz, relaxed talk is at 120 Hz, trained speech is at 150 Hz or more. After VFS I would expect my lowest end to be maybe 130 or 140, relaxed speech could be 190 Hz. So if I really want, I could go to the low end at 130 Hz and be in the same range roundabout where I had my pre op relaxed voice, but it would be as weird as me going down to 80 Hz now. Plus the timbre changes, so it does not sound the same as before.
Thats how I imagine it. But I can only tell you for sure in some months ;)

Thanks Kate, I guess I have a hard time thinking Id ever be gendered female on the phone, BUT I just was TWICE :o ...

Anjaq what you describe is kinda where Im at, I really think its getting better slowly ;D

I talked to my brother yesterday for the first time since I saw him about a year ago, we used to have very similar DEEP voices... It was a relief knowing he's OK with me now but what was really a relief was knowing I can NEVER sound like him again ever ;D He was blown away by my voice LOL  :laugh:

Heres where its at right now, it feels pretty good today and the falsetto is there but still a bit weak... When I have the full upper range it sounds a lot better and I cant wait for it to get stronger and heal more... My old absolute highest pitch speaking was about 350hz I just did like 480hz in falsetto here :o Its not great but there is no more break between my head voice and falsetto... I think it will only get better from here ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s13l1XtcMPUu

Wow you sound pretty good, Eva!

Hey Eva, happy new year. Any updates? How's the voice healing up?

Hi Kate :)

Thanks and I hope your New Years plans were good ;)

Im just now recovering after getting REALLY wasted at a very fancy historic hotel last night  ::)

So here I made a quick recording, not too bad considering the shape Im in right now :laugh:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0wSr1Wlpo8X

I think your voice sounds ok. Do you think it would have made any differene if he did the CTA with yours?

Thanks  ;)  From what I understand a CTA does about the same as using the same muscles to raise your voice but they get locked together permanently.... Im sure with a CTA Id have a higher pitch all the time.... Its unpredictable and the pitch can lower in time with a CTA as well... Im still healing but when the upper range is there and clear its very easy to use it with the same muscles I used for my old "trained voice"...

It was an effort to really raise it before and I could comfortably get by I just hated it and if I wasnt careful it was easy to slip up and use my very deep male voice.... Its better now, if I slip up its more like 130hz instead of 100hz... I used to be able to get down to 50-60 hz, now I can get to about 100hz, I gotta really try hard though...

There is no real break now between my chest voice and falsetto... In fact Im not sure I even have a "chest voice" at all anymore, my chest doesnt vibrate at all when I talk anyway... The fact that I was a HEAVY smoker for 31 years has something to do with my deeper voice Im sure and it might even limit my results... 

Still a lot of healing left and Im hoping for more but Id be happy with what I have now... I could still do a CTA if I want too... Im planning on having a trach shave and a neck lift/tightening in late February... Dr Haben advised against a CTA and trach shave before FFS because he would have no way to predict how the scar on my neck would turn out... Dr Speigel actually trained as an ENT and he uses a scope in the throat to make sure he doesnt damage the voice... I told him Id like a less aggressive trach shave in exchange for 100% certainty Id not change my voice...

Dr Haben said he was confident this is all I would need and Im optimistic that will be true in the end and I learn to use my new voice in time  ;D ;)

Thanks for the update, Eva. I hope it all works out for you.

Eva that's a very detailed answer. Thank you. Your results I think still sound good. Kinda like if you went to Korea. Plus you have no scar

Thanks Im my own worst critic and people do tell me "it sounds good" I guess I just dont believe it...

Ok today is 2 months post op voice feminization surgery...

For the most part Im happy with it so far but still a bit disappointed... Id love it to be just a bit higher, its in the lower female range but there is still a male resonance I dont like...

The doc did say THREE months minimum for the final results though so Im hoping for more improvement to come... I understand that Yeson has restrictions on talking for the first two months and his patients see improvement up to a year out... I guess I just have to just be patient, not one my strong suits  ::)

Still as of right now its definitely a lot less worry about my voice ;D It used to be really hard and now I hardly ever think about it...

IF it doesnt end up higher there are still things I can do surgically to tweak it a bit higher but Im hoping to avoid that...


http://vocaroo.com/i/s1WsvGC4o3MS

Wow Eva, you sound great :) I would do anything to have a voice like yours.

eva your voice sounds very female, the only thing i have noticed that might give you away is the way you choose your wording, you still use male pattern language,

i hope i don't offend, and i also speak the same and think using female pattern language will be my most difficult obstacle to overcome in my voice training because it is mostly retraining your grammatical choices when speaking and it will be like relearning english slightly

as for resonance i think you are doing amazing and any doubts in your voice quality should be shelved until your about 6 months post op since that is about how long it takes for soft tissue to significantly settle after any surgery, even in the case of voice surgery

Quote from: akegia on January 12, 2015, 12:35:45 PM
Wow Eva, you sound great :) I would do anything to have a voice like yours.

Thanks :) If your not happy with your voice after trying to work on it you know Dr Haben is still working, far as I know ;)

Quote from: Madison (kiara jamie) on January 12, 2015, 01:07:29 PM
eva your voice sounds very female, the only thing i have noticed that might give you away is the way you choose your wording, you still use male pattern language,

i hope i don't offend, and i also speak the same and think using female pattern language will be my most difficult obstacle to overcome in my voice training because it is mostly retraining your grammatical choices when speaking and it will be like relearning english slightly

as for resonance i think you are doing amazing and any doubts in your voice quality should be shelved until your about 6 months post op since that is about how long it takes for soft tissue to significantly settle after any surgery, even in the case of voice surgery

Thanks ;D No offense at all, I know I still talk like a male a lot of the time... Im not surprised I have a hard time changing my speech pattern either after 44 years of living a mans life ;)

Its hard to make a recording of what I sound like day in day out... I try to avoid just reading and usually just ramble on about whatever' s on my mind...

Sometimes though and usually with my girl friends but sometimes men as well if I like them I can tell when im getting it right... Its weird but its just a feeling thats different...

Your right about the healing too, Im just real impatient  ::)

Quote from: Eva on January 12, 2015, 01:18:33 PM
Thanks :) If your not happy with your voice after trying to work on it you know Dr Haben is still working, far as I know ;)

Hey, Yeah I actually have been emailing him recently. Might go with him later in the year or next year. (Your topic/posts have pretty much sold me on his methods)

Eva,

It sounds much improved. It doesn't sound super high, but it definitely sounds female. Especially from where you started, you've certainly come a long way.

The resonance issues will be resolved with training, I think.

Thanks Akegia I was looking for something online and I see that Dr Haben updated his web page with more info 8) http://professionalvoice.org/feminization.aspx

The info he has on smokers there is spot on... As a former heavy smoker I feel like even though Ive quit for more than 4 months now it has hindered my results... I had a VERY deep voice pre op though and now Im centered around 180-190hz... Im 2 1/2 months post op and I should be hearing my final result soon...

Honestly Im kinda disappointed, I feel like its still too deep  :'(  Im waiting on a call from Dr Spiegel today to discuss my upcoming surgery and my plans for a trachea shave... Mine is really not that bad but I understand my face/neck lift will possibly make it much more visible... Im worried about it making my voice deeper though :(  Im going to ask him for his opinion on doing a CTA in addition to what Ive already had done... He is an ENT too so Im also wondering if there's anything he thinks he could do while he's in there.... One thing about having a CTA that scares me is the scar on my throat :( If Dr S could do it and put the incision higher up on my chin Id probably go for that...

I donno in about two weeks I will have my 3 month post op consult with Dr Haben and see what he thinks about it and hopefully discuss any further surgical options to tweak it a bit higher... Ideally he could do it endoscopic with a laser...

Im also considering a consult with Dr Thomas in Oregon to see what he says and see if he could get me up to 200-210 hz with an endoscopic laser treatment like this...

http://voicedoctor.net/surgery/pitch/laser-vocal-cord-tuning

Kate thanks... It IS improved but I just want more, I guess Im just a perfectionist :-\

Im also sure I could improve it a lot with training but there is no "training" to be had around here aside from going full time :(

Anyway here's where its at today...

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1v370yJQqVW

Well I just talked to Dr Spiegel, he said it sounds a lot better than it did when I saw him at our consultation  :) I could hardly talk then though, I was still recovering from this and pretty hoarse...

He says he can do a CTA if I want one with my upcoming FFS 8) The question now is do I want one???
He said the incision would have to be a bit lower than for the trachea shave, it would also be longer but only about a quarter inch... About a 1 inch incision...

He also said depending on where my cords are tied he might be able to tie off a little more... He said he has done both the CTA and the web before...  Id love to have him take a look there when I see him for my pre surgical consultation... I think Id do the CTA and trach shave with my FFS, BUT Im not sure Id be able to talk very well after the CTA... With everything else going on with the FFS Im not sure I want to do that :-\

Id still like Dr Habens opinion on doing a CTA and trach shave with my FFS ??? I mean for a CTA Ive only seen recommendations of no use of the voice for at least a week... Dr S said Id be able to talk but it would be weak, Id have to speak softly and there would be no potential for harm like with a web if I just take it easy... I guess that makes sense but Im still not sure Id want to do the major FFS stuff and then not be able to talk very good while recovering for such a big ordeal :(

I guess it would depend on what Dr S thinks he could do with maybe making more of a web???
I want to hear what Dr Haben thinks there as well as far as going in and tying more off....

Id rather have Dr Haben make a shorter web BUT Id like it If Dr Spiegel did the CTA because I trust him more with the incision... Either way I cant do a web with FFS because Id have to start the whole 3 month VFS healing process over AND I know I cant talk after that even if I wanted to... Thats a week of NO talking at all... Id do it over again though If Dr Haben thought he could get me 2-3 notes higher...


I donno but I gotta make up my mind soon here... Im leaning towards doing nothing at all there for now, not even the trach shave and seeing how it looks after my FFS heals... 

Give it all a few more months THEN decide on additional VFS.... Thats probably the way to go I guess....

Yeah I say check with haben first. I know im going to see him for my surgery I think feb 17th and will be asking him a lot of the same questions

Personally I think 190 Hz are fine. But thats just me. Its where I would probably like to end up, although I would not be unhappy if it is 200 or 180, given my original voice was at 110 Hz. The rest can still be changed by some small voice training. I would not do a CTA if I was you - not only does it leave that scar, it also restricts your voice in some ways and you may actually end up too high and sound false because of that. If anything, maybe that laser is an option to just add a few more Hz. But honestly I owuld rather wait and see first, and maybe check with a voice therapist experienced in gendered voices to see what may be bothering you and if it really is the pitch.

I dont even think its making 190 hz today >:( More like 160-170.... I can easily hit 75 hz this morning :'( I can hardly stand to listen to the recording so I wont bother posting it here :embarrassed:

Really I feel havent got much out of this surgery sometimes :'( Sometimes it seems pretty good too though, its very frustrating :-\ Sometimes I can do 190 hz but it seems very rarely lately :(

I feel like Ive actually lost the very highest range and I have nowhere near the falsetto voice I used to and I can still get WAY too low as well.... Im not sure how a CTA would work without much of a falsetto voice to rely on  :(  It sucks, I used to smoke like a chimney and I had a higher falsetto voice than I do now nearly 5 months after quitting, AND having VFS ??? ::) :'(

Im going to try to get in touch with Dr Haben next week for my 3 months post consultation and see what he says... I doubt Im gonna like it much...

Keep in mind though that also the Yeson patients have often a bad voice in month 3 or 4 - apparenty that is usually attributed to the botox injections wearing off, but it may also be just part of the healing process. It seems to get better after that in most cases, though.

Quote from: Eva on February 07, 2015, 02:19:18 PM
I dont even think its making 190 hz today >:( More like 160-170.... I can easily hit 75 hz this morning :'( I can hardly stand to listen to the recording so I wont bother posting it here :embarrassed:

Really I feel havent got much out of this surgery sometimes :'( Sometimes it seems pretty good too though, its very frustrating :-\ Sometimes I can do 190 hz but it seems very rarely lately :(

I feel like Ive actually lost the very highest range and I have nowhere near the falsetto voice I used to and I can still get WAY too low as well.... Im not sure how a CTA would work without much of a falsetto voice to rely on  :(  It sucks, I used to smoke like a chimney and I had a higher falsetto voice than I do now nearly 5 months after quitting, AND having VFS ??? ::) :'(

Im going to try to get in touch with Dr Haben next week for my 3 months post consultation and see what he says... I doubt Im gonna like it much...

I wish you the best of luck. Im going in for my surgery on the 18th. im going to document what they will let me. hopefully i have some good results that arent so inconsistent

Eva, I've been tracking your progress on this forum and I can honestly tell you that for the 1st time I think you sound very passable. And I hope your voice will continue to improve to your satisfaction. In case it doesn't, please don't be so hard on yourself by focusing your entire attention on just one aspect of being a woman. There's no perfection in anyone's transition as we all feel insecure about some aspects of ourselves to various degrees. Even for the ones passable in every way, they still have to deal with whatever problems life throws at them just like any other women out there. And I have yet to encounter a problem free cis woman. So cheer up! I wish you the best of luck in your journey!  :angel:

Greetings, beautiful posters!  I'm a newbie here but have been lurking for a while.  I have recently been in contact with Dr. Haben about doing a glottoplasty procedure.  I have a trained voice that gets the job done, but it's never been truly comfortable even after two years of working on it, and when I'm sick it goes out the window completely!  I have a lot of concerns about this surgery since I play a wind instrument professionally.  I would love a female voice that was more automatic, but I'm very hesitant to do anything that could have a negative impact on my career.  I also sing in a mezzo soprano range, which is just a hobby, but still important to me.  Dr. Haben says that the surgery can slightly change the airway and that any difference is minimal, but I have to wonder, has anyone who has had this surgery, or Dr. Kim's, noticed a change in breathing?

Eva, I've followed this thread closely, and I think your voice is much improved!  I'm sorry it isn't where you want it to be right now, but I hear a basic feminine quality in your voice and I have a feeling that with more training and experimenting you will find ways to make it even better.  I can only speculate, but as for falsetto/head voice I have to wonder if you might need to go about accessing it in a slightly different way.  I really hope this is the case.  I sing in head and mixed voice all the time and I would be crushed if I lost my upper notes!  I don't know if anyone out there plays a wind or brass instrument (or sings) but any feedback would be most welcome as I try to make this decision.  Also, to those of you who have shared your experiences with VSF: Thank you so much!  You are helping people to make educated decisions about a new and potentially life-changing process :)

Quote from: warmbody28 on February 08, 2015, 01:21:57 PM
I wish you the best of luck. Im going in for my surgery on the 18th. im going to document what they will let me. hopefully i have some good results that arent so inconsistent

Good Luck!!! Are doing the web and the CTA???

Quote from: Lunarain on February 08, 2015, 07:39:28 PM
Eva, I've been tracking your progress on this forum and I can honestly tell you that for the 1st time I think you sound very passable. And I hope your voice will continue to improve to your satisfaction. In case it doesn't, please don't be so hard on yourself by focusing your entire attention on just one aspect of being a woman. There's no perfection in anyone's transition as we all feel insecure about some aspects of ourselves to various degrees. Even for the ones passable in every way, they still have to deal with whatever problems life throws at them just like any other women out there. And I have yet to encounter a problem free cis woman. So cheer up! I wish you the best of luck in your journey!  :angel:

Thanks Lunarain :) I feel like there's just still too much of the low end there but sometimes if Im just right with it I know its very good... Its just not as easy and effortless as I hoped it would be :-\

Quote from: kwala on February 10, 2015, 11:22:05 PM
Greetings, beautiful posters!  I'm a newbie here but have been lurking for a while.  I have recently been in contact with Dr. Haben about doing a glottoplasty procedure.  I have a trained voice that gets the job done, but it's never been truly comfortable even after two years of working on it, and when I'm sick it goes out the window completely!  I have a lot of concerns about this surgery since I play a wind instrument professionally.  I would love a female voice that was more automatic, but I'm very hesitant to do anything that could have a negative impact on my career.  I also sing in a mezzo soprano range, which is just a hobby, but still important to me.  Dr. Haben says that the surgery can slightly change the airway and that any difference is minimal, but I have to wonder, has anyone who has had this surgery, or Dr. Kim's, noticed a change in breathing?

Eva, I've followed this thread closely, and I think your voice is much improved!  I'm sorry it isn't where you want it to be right now, but I hear a basic feminine quality in your voice and I have a feeling that with more training and experimenting you will find ways to make it even better.  I can only speculate, but as for falsetto/head voice I have to wonder if you might need to go about accessing it in a slightly different way.  I really hope this is the case.  I sing in head and mixed voice all the time and I would be crushed if I lost my upper notes!  I don't know if anyone out there plays a wind or brass instrument (or sings) but any feedback would be most welcome as I try to make this decision.  Also, to those of you who have shared your experiences with VSF: Thank you so much!  You are helping people to make educated decisions about a new and potentially life-changing process :)

Thanks Kwala I put this out there so others that are considering this surgery have something to go by... There sure isnt much out there to be found concerning this surgery in NY with Dr Haben... In my experience though he's been spot on in describing the healing process and the potential for a less than optimal result due to my past smoking and a very deep voice to start with :(

That said I have ZERO regrets, I can live with it the way it is.... It IS easier now for sure ;)

I havent noticed any issues at all with breathing, not an issue... As far as singing??? Well its not like I had this great falsetto singing voice thats gone now so I donno ???

Im waiting to hear back from Dr Haben after sending in my 3 month recording....

Im leaning towards doing nothing to my trachea or maybe just having Dr Speigel shave it down... Then having more tied off on the web in a few months after I recover from FFS...

Yes Id do it all over for 2-3 more notes.... Im scared of doing the CTA though...

Quote from: Eva on February 11, 2015, 10:08:47 AM

Thanks Kwala I put this out there so others that are considering this surgery have something to go by... There sure isnt much out there to be found concerning this surgery in NY with Dr Haben... In my experience though he's been spot on in describing the healing process and the potential for a less than optimal result due to my past smoking and a very deep voice to start with :(

That said I have ZERO regrets, I can live with it the way it is.... It IS easier now for sure ;)

I havent noticed any issues at all with breathing, not an issue... As far as singing??? Well its not like I had this great falsetto singing voice thats gone now so I donno ???

Im waiting to hear back from Dr Haben after sending in my 3 month recording....

Im leaning towards doing nothing to my trachea or maybe just having Dr Speigel shave it down... Then having more tied off on the web in a few months after I recover from FFS...

Yes Id do it all over for 2-3 more notes.... Im scared of doing the CTA though...

That's great that you're staying positive.  You've already had a tremendous improvement and there's nothing wrong with wanting a little touch up :)  I'm scared of CTA, too!!
May I ask, what happens when you try to break into falsetto now that this process is done.  Does it feel too strained, or is it simply that no sound will come out when you try to move up really high in your head voice?  When I am trying to expand my range, I usually do sirens on an "Ng" sound starting with a really really really light chest voice so that I can easily blend into head voice without a noticeable break.  I wonder if that would apply to the new structure of your vocal chords.

I got another email from Dr. Haben today, he seems to think that instrumentalists have a much less difficult time recovering than singers (which is a big relief).  I still need to do some more research before I commit, but this is looking more and more like something I want to pursue.   It's going to be hard to take that much time off of work, and it's really going to suck when I come back for rehearsals out of shape.  Hope they'll understand :)

Well... I feel like some of my "lost" falsetto might be from not putting so much constant effort into speaking at a higher pitch ;)

I can still do my "mixed" voice and it sounds even better when I do it and I DO use it when I have to talk on the phone... BUT I dont have to use it as much now so I feel like the muscles that were trained to make it work aren't as strong as they were :( Also since a higher pitch is much more effortless the conditioning I used to have way up there is possibly less now than it was from atrophy...

But I used to be able to go 50 hz higher easily....

Hey. I'm not planning on the CTA as of right now. Although I did pay for that as well. ( I book like a week before his website changed to allow the other option). When I talk with him I will see what he says i I just need one or also the CTA. And then I will post my results on YouTube most likely

Hey no I paid for CTA but I didn't have it... I had "laser thinning" and the web glottoplasty but only 1/3rd tied up...

I had no idea he was even doing just the web when I started all this...

I MIGHT still do a CTA with FFS :o IF I could guarantee exactly where the "low pass filter" kicked on Id set it at 135hz and be HAPPY... CTA is too unpredictable for me though... IF Dr Haben AND Dr Speigel said Id benefit from a CTA Id do it though.... Im working on getting both opinions now ;)

I may never make it to youtube or even post my FFS pics here, Im OLD, (46)....

Eva, that's good to know.  Thanks for the info!  I wonder, can you still do really high squeaking?  Hertz is somewhat misleading the higher you go since it increases exponentially in terms of actual notes.

Warmbody, I can't wait to hear about your experience, thanks for sharing.  Dr. Haben sounds pretty reasonable so I'd be surprised if he didn't refund your money if you opt out of the CTA.

Quote from: kwala on February 11, 2015, 09:19:35 PM
Eva, that's good to know.  Thanks for the info!  I wonder, can you still do really high squeaking?  Hertz is somewhat misleading the higher you go since it increases exponentially in terms of actual notes.

Warmbody, I can't wait to hear about your experience, thanks for sharing.  Dr. Haben sounds pretty reasonable so I'd be surprised if he didn't refund your money if you opt out of the CTA.

Your welcome and I don't think he will refund anything since he's runing a business.  But I guess it's ok as long as I have good results . I can't wait to start posting videos 7 days post op

Seeing as other VFS folks (Yeson) who do a very similar procedure advise 1 year til the final voice, I'd wait at least 6-8 months before coming to any conclusions. Ballpark of 3 months is probably way too early.

Personally I'm starting to consider Dr. Haben since he is considerably closer to me than Yeson, and in recent months, as in your example, has been starting to demonstrate noteworthy work.

(Also my relaxed speaking is around 140hz and I'm mildly scared that Dr. Kim might crank me up too high.)

Quote from: Rachelicious on February 14, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
Seeing as other VFS folks (Yeson) who do a very similar procedure advise 1 year til the final voice, I'd wait at least 6-8 months before coming to any conclusions. Ballpark of 3 months is probably way too early.

Personally I'm starting to consider Dr. Haben since he is considerably closer to me than Yeson, and in recent months, as in your example, has been starting to demonstrate noteworthy work.

(Also my relaxed speaking is around 140hz and I'm mildly scared that Dr. Kim might crank me up too high.)

I would send an email to the link on Dr. Haben's page.  He replied to me personally after only a few days and answered my initial questions.  I'm still a ways away from actually having a consult but I feel more assured that he knows what he's doing after having a direct communication with him.

Quote from: kwala on February 11, 2015, 09:19:35 PM
Eva, that's good to know.  Thanks for the info!  I wonder, can you still do really high squeaking?  Hertz is somewhat misleading the higher you go since it increases exponentially in terms of actual notes.

Warmbody, I can't wait to hear about your experience, thanks for sharing.  Dr. Haben sounds pretty reasonable so I'd be surprised if he didn't refund your money if you opt out of the CTA.

Kwala at the moment NO I cant but I have kinda been able to... Its all kinda frustrating because it comes and goes... Sometimes its VERY good but mostly Im not happy with it... No matter how good it is though I can still go WAY too deep :embarrassed:

Warmbody, Dr Haben told me he would have refunded my $$$ for the CTA OR do "laser thinning" which I had him do instead... He did say that would make for a longer recovery and it would slightly help increase pitch but mostly just make my voice "breathier"...

We didnt do a CTA at the time because I told him my next surgery was FFS... He said he couldn't guarantee what the incision/trach shave would look like after my face/neck lift...

Quote from: Rachelicious on February 14, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
Seeing as other VFS folks (Yeson) who do a very similar procedure advise 1 year til the final voice, I'd wait at least 6-8 months before coming to any conclusions. Ballpark of 3 months is probably way too early.

Personally I'm starting to consider Dr. Haben since he is considerably closer to me than Yeson, and in recent months, as in your example, has been starting to demonstrate noteworthy work.

(Also my relaxed speaking is around 140hz and I'm mildly scared that Dr. Kim might crank me up too high.)

I KNOW your right Rachel BUT Im just too damn IMPATIENT and like I said no matter how good I can talk in the female range (and I can pretty good usually) I can also go down way too deep as well :-\ :'(

The CTA is VERY tempting....

Quote from: Eva on February 14, 2015, 07:22:52 PM
I KNOW your right Rachel BUT Im just too damn IMPATIENT and like I said no matter how good I can talk in the female range (and I can pretty good usually) I can also go down way too deep as well :-\ :'(

The CTA is VERY tempting....

I wouldn't worry about the ability to "go really deep" as many women can as well as long as your comfortable speaking register remains in the female range.  I have a really good feeling that that's where you'll develop in time and even if you retain your lower register you'll probably forget all about it from lack of use :)

Quote from: kwala on February 14, 2015, 07:39:16 PM
I wouldn't worry about the ability to "go really deep" as many women can as well as long as your comfortable speaking register remains in the female range.  I have a really good feeling that that's where you'll develop in time and even if you retain your lower register you'll probably forget all about it from lack of use :)

This.

To clarify, it is not at all uncommon for a woman to be able to comfortably hit a C2 (135'ish hz.) I've heard plenty enough at 100hz or lower to consider it normal'ish, particularly "radio voice" ladies (Meg Griffin from the Loft on Sirius XM comes to mind) as well as those with Reinke's edema (the classic smoky, low voice.)

The more obvious thing is... you're critiquing your surgical outcome, before fully healed, when prosody (how you say things and shape sentences) and to a lesser extent resonance will at this point much more greatly influence how you're perceived now that you actually have a voice that, as you suggest, can more or less pass either way.

It's really how you can use your voice that determines what you need. In any case you likely still have swelling, and that will make your voice heavier/deeper with less range because of increased mass and decreased vibration. Also using the voice too much may have the potential to stretch things out - it's an anxious habit like picking scabs. It won't help things, and sadly this is the sort of thing where I think intuition is a bit necessary for knowing how much is too much or too little.

I wonder how many ladies here with good outcomes from VFS have truly been able to conjure a voice post-op that they could not access at all without training? Training does not necessarily mean lessons - talent can suffice.

Your right again of course Rachel... I just hear too much of the old voice in there and I wrongly assumed it would be totally different... I do hear from my Mom and my friends that its way better now but I guess Im not hearing it ??? Id just like 2-3 notes higher but I worry about totally screwing it up with a CTA too...

Right now Im leaning towards just doing FFS and even skipping the trach shave... Mines not an issue at all now and I can always do it after FFS if I want it...

Im thinking full FFS will be brutal enough to recover from and I need to worry about getting through that more than my voice right now anyway ;)

Quote from: Rachelicious on February 14, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
(Also my relaxed speaking is around 140hz and I'm mildly scared that Dr. Kim might crank me up too high.)

Haha, I am not alone then :P - But I know Dr Kim will hear your wishes and if you say you dont want to go too high, he will do it. Amy asked for that because of her desire to sing in a certain alto range and AFAIK he pretty much gave her that ability while still elevating her voice overall. But I am not sure how high is too high. I personally believe that such very high voices as I have now heard 2 from Yeson patients are solely caused by the VFS. I suspect that some way of using the new voice leads to that , especially in both cases it was desired by those in question that the voice is that really high. I think what we want to achive plays a huge role in what we get from the VFS. Those who did not dare to use a higher voice post op can actually still speak in a male range as well, even if it sounds in my ears a bit strained using the lowest end of their new voices, but if you are still not fulltime - well... I personally think its not a good idea to do VFS before going fulltime and then getting used to use the new voice in a wrong way due to that - which requires mental correction later on to re-train using the new voice properly.

I will talk to in person for my pre op consultation this Tuesday so I will ask him about the refun or the thinking thing your talking about. I'm not sure I need a CTA to be honest, I'm still young, don't smoke and my voice really isn't deep? Idk? Guess I will find out Tuesday? I am def excited though to say the least. Plus I would like to still be able to sing im my car on the way to work

I've been taught that even if your fundamental pitch is 220Hz or whatever, your habitual pitch (i.e. trained pitch) can be higher or lower.  When I first transitioned, my habitual speaking pitch was 10Hz lower than my tested natural pitch, as I had trained myself to speak more 'manly' to fit in.  So whatever increase you get doesn't necessarily mean you will sound like Minnie Mouse :)

Well I was finally able to get Dr Haben on the phone, he was on vacation.....
I tried sending him some recordings for him to analyze but he says he couldn't open them ??? So I sent them again in a different format and I will get that compared to my pre op recording and find out the difference...

He says I should wait at least 6 months for the final, final result... He said there is a chance it could still increase dramatically... He uses a dissolvable stitch and he said it should be gone by now but it might not be...

He said I could do a CTA and it would definitely cut out the low end but he says there is no way to know where I will end up and it could end up way too high... He can also possibly tie the web shorter but he needs to see where its healed it right now... Im hoping to get Dr Speigel to take a picture for me to save me a trip out there to see him....

So Im leaning towards doing nothing at all, not even the trachea shave... Its not a problem for me right now and hopefully after my face/neck lift it wont be... I can always have that done later with SRS or body contouring or just as a single procedure if it becomes an issue but no one I know says I need it....

If after another 3 months or so Im still not happy and Im recovered enough from my FFS then I can decide on a CTA or my preference tying off more and making the web longer... It makes sense to wait because if I do the trach shave then later decide on a CTA Id have to have the original work redone and Id have two scars on my neck...

Of course it would be best if it would just go a bit higher on its own... Right now unfortunately its not too good... My "falsetto" is really weak though... When thats good, and it has been very good I can do a very good mixed voice at least... So Im really hoping it will just heal completely and end up a bit higher than my best so far... I think I could live with that... Its VERY disappointing to have it sound pretty good and then lose it :'(

I think at that time, 3 months, it is normal to have good and bad voice days. I definitely would wait out the 6 months or even more (at Yeson they say up to 12 months) before calling it a verdict. so maybe it goes up a bit gets stronger - you will see and then you can still decide on what to do. Better like that than doing a double voice feminization now and in the end sounding like a mouse ;)

Me and two others had our surgeries today. I'm going to start doing my updates and discuss the process as well as my detailed talks with the surgeon. Already know I'm coming back at 3 months for a fallow up as well.

Congrats and GOOD LUCK ;D 8)

thank you EVA

Eva i was wondering. for the removal  of your stitches did they just clip the ends or pull the blue stitch all the way out completely? you know when you went to see your primary care doctor?

Hey Hon, no I never had a CTA ;) Im gonna be following progress to help make the decision on whether or not I want one... Id like my voice a bit higher, I can still go too deep with just the web surgery done :'( 

Oh ok. Well if you don't wanna get to low going back for his CTA is a good idea then. I can't go as low as I use to anymore. I feel like my voice still sounds like pooh right now because it's so early and im still learning it but people are saying it sounds better. Guess I will know in 7 weeks or so? I'm sure with your CTA you will be so much more happy

Hang in there!!! You have at least a month of it sounding really bad before its gonna get better... Even then you will have good and bad days too...  Its taking a long time to fully heal here and Im not real patient and I still don't always now how to use it either ::)

Ill admit I didnt listen to your post op recording yet but thats mostly because Ive been really busy with FFS... Its also too early to worry about it or to tell your final result... BUT I completely understand how you feel wanting to know because Ive been through it with the web part anyway...

Now that my FFS is done I just have to let it all heal for a while then make a decision on doing more with my voice... The CTA is still in interesting option so you having had both are of particular interest to me ;)

Take care and get well soon ;) 8)

Hey Eva,

I am in the process of deciding which of the two voice surgeons to go see for May. Based off what you have experienced so far, would you recommend Dr. Haben?

Thanks,
Melissa

Yes Id do it again but you should do your own research... He's pretty easy to get a hold of via the email link on his VFS web page... For me Id rather stay in the USA for what looks very similar but possibly not the same thing Yeson does for less $$$...

Quote from: Eva on March 05, 2015, 06:20:53 PM
Yes Id do it again but you should do your own research... He's pretty easy to get a hold of via the email link on his VFS web page... For me Id rather stay in the USA for what looks very similar but possibly not the same thing Yeson does for less $$$...

Thanks Eva. I have listened to many Yeson clips and the 2 that are available with Dr. Habens patients on his site (plus yours). I guess for me there isn't enough information either way that makes me overwhelmingly choose one over the other.

Cool thats why I put mine here ;) I couldn't find ANYTHING at all online when I made my blind leap of faith so I figured Id put it here so there is at least something out there for those that don't want to go all the way to Korea....

Keep in mind I smoked for 31 years and my voice was pretty deep pre op... Ive never had voice training or therapy aside from what I could find online and just RLE... Im also still not happy with my results so far and Im considering my options to raise my pitch... I can do a CTA, make the web longer or possibly laser tuning.... Im leaning towards a CTA...

Very interesting thread. I was firmly convinced Kim was the only way to go but now I'm looking into Haben. I don't have a particularly low voice (not sure what range I'm in) and I've never smoked so I'm starting to think that I could go with Haben and stay in the US and probably have a good result. I'll keep watching this thread for more info.

How are you doing now, Eva?

Quote from: Wynternight on March 14, 2015, 07:05:20 PM
Very interesting thread. I was firmly convinced Kim was the only way to go but now I'm looking into Haben. I don't have a particularly low voice (not sure what range I'm in) and I've never smoked so I'm starting to think that I could go with Haben and stay in the US and probably have a good result. I'll keep watching this thread for more info.

How are you doing now, Eva?

I'm in the same boat.  Dr. Kim's work is incredible but Dr. Haben's results seem very comparable.  Living on the east coast in the US, saving all of the time and money with a simple one hour flight to Rochester (or even a five hour drive if I feel like it) is just too hard to ignore.  Big thanks to Eva and Warmbody for sharing their experiences.

Super useful all this information! Thanks!

As far as comparability Dr Haben with Dr Kim goes - what does Dr Haben say about singing, shouting, screaming, speaking loudly after the surgery? Prof Nawka in Berlin told me that all of this is impaired or should be avoided, Dr Kim said that once the healing is finished, after 2 months one can sing and after a year it should be ok to do all of this - we know from the experiences of others that some volume loss occurs though and that in some cases singing does not work out as well as hoped, i most cases it seems to be very good though. Since the techniques seem to differ quite a bit, I would be interested in that. I guess when it comes to normal daily speech alone, the results seem to be good in both cases.

Quote from: anjaq on March 15, 2015, 03:44:29 PM
As far as comparability Dr Haben with Dr Kim goes - what does Dr Haben say about singing, shouting, screaming, speaking loudly after the surgery? Prof Nawka in Berlin told me that all of this is impaired or should be avoided, Dr Kim said that once the healing is finished, after 2 months one can sing and after a year it should be ok to do all of this - we know from the experiences of others that some volume loss occurs though and that in some cases singing does not work out as well as hoped, i most cases it seems to be very good though. Since the techniques seem to differ quite a bit, I would be interested in that. I guess when it comes to normal daily speech alone, the results seem to be good in both cases.

In my emails, Dr. Haben has said that he has worked on many singers and that while there is an adjustment period getting comfortable with a new instrument, his patients have regained their singing abilities with "no complaints" after the healing process is completed.  I asked about a loss of volume in regards to shouting, and while I didn't get a totally clear answer, he seemed to think that this was a non-issue after full recovery.  If you read through the Q&A on his site he does go into a little more detail about the different procedures and combinations and their effects in regards to singing.  I  am planning the glottoplasty alone because it is the least invasive and, according to Dr. Haben, preserves more of the overall range for singing.  My voice is already quite high so I think the 7-8 semitones gained will be more than enough.

Edited to add: I seem to remember Abby saying that her singing voice never really came back and that she had lost some of her top register.  I haven't read a post from her in a long time and wonder if she was able to work through that...I hope so!  On the other hand, Amy has been able to sing again and J-Mi seems to be recording again so maybe it just depends.  Singing is a difficult thing to judge without hearing before and after clips.  If you couldn't sing before and didn't have a sense of pitch and rhythm, well...there's no surgery in the world that can fix that.  I have to imagine though, if you do possess those qualities that you will be able to sing again even if the register is somewhat different than what you were used to before.

Hi Warmbody,

How is your recovery going? I've been tracking this tread for a while but I seem to have missed your pre/post voice samples somehow or you never posted them to begin with? I'm considering going to Dr Haben this summer and I would be truly grateful if shared your results!

Many thanks in advance!

Quote from: Lunarain on March 15, 2015, 07:17:48 PM
Hi Warmbody,

How is your recovery going? I've been tracking this tread for a while but I seem to have missed your pre/post voice samples somehow or you never posted them to begin with? I'm considering going to Dr Haben this summer and I would be truly grateful if shared your results!

Many thanks in advance!

You should check out this thread instead:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,183384.0.html

Quote from: kwala on March 15, 2015, 07:28:53 PM
You should check out this thread instead:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,183384.0.html

I now see light at the end of the tunnel and I'm beyond grateful! I'm so happy I can't stand it!

I checked the homepage but it does not say anything about voice feminization and I did not found a FAQ.

I am sad that one does not hear some late updates of the ones who had been at Yeson a longer time ago, Jenny, Abby, Sarah - to hear what their experiences are in the long run.

Apparently one issue with some glottoplasty surgeons is, that they do not make the suture deep enough - a deep suture and permanent threads seem to improve the stability of the surgery, so that the suture cannot rip open when shouting and to avoid hoarseness and pitch instability. Maybe Dr Haben does that as well, the ones I heard of so far did not do that.

Quote from: anjaq on March 16, 2015, 05:00:59 AM
I checked the homepage but it does not say anything about voice feminization and I did not found a FAQ.

I am sad that one does not hear some late updates of the ones who had been at Yeson a longer time ago, Jenny, Abby, Sarah - to hear what their experiences are in the long run.

Apparently one issue with some glottoplasty surgeons is, that they do not make the suture deep enough - a deep suture and permanent threads seem to improve the stability of the surgery, so that the suture cannot rip open when shouting and to avoid hoarseness and pitch instability. Maybe Dr Haben does that as well, the ones I heard of so far did not do that.

http://professionalvoice.org/feminization.aspx
For some reason there is not a direct link (or at least one that I could find) on his homepage.  That is a bit odd, but a simple Google search will get you there.  The FAQ is all the way at the bottom of the page.  I have no idea how deep he does the suture and he seems hesitant to compare his technique to Dr. Kim's.

Why is he hesistant? I mean, they seem to be relatively similar, so there should not be a need to hold back on that? Or does he have any new technique that he does not want to make public yet? I  know it was not really that easy to find out what Dr Kim does that makes his results better than that of the German surgeons I talked to - I guess in a way they also want to keep their patients coming to them ;) - can't blame them for that in a way.

Before this turns ugly ;) I just want to point out how great it is to have a CHOICE between two surgeons who don't do CTA and who have great results!  It wasn't 2 years ago that there was only one way to go if you didn't trust CTA to be safe enough. 

Bravo surgeons for advancing their art and opening their practice to include us.  I'm thrilled that we've gotten this far, hopefully this will result in even better and more convenient options for VFS all over the world!

You are right, ReDucks - I meant in no way to say that this is not a good choice. Part of why I am digging so much around about the differences is, that I try to convince my health insurance to pay for the procedure and possible this will end up before a judge, so I kind of am eager to prove that these new methods are indeed better then the previous glottoplasty results and better than a standalone CTA. The standpoint of the insurance is "this does not work anyways and if you still want to do it, you can do it with one of our contractors" (which have a self-admitted success rate of 30%). I dont really expect this to go through, but I still want to try. And it helps to know what the differences and details in the technique are. Just showing them some good examples does not convince them (I guess they believe I could have hand picked only the greatest results).

It kind of sucks that in this country you either get helped but have to get the suboptimal surgeries available in country (which often are even more expensive for the insurances than going abroad) , or you have money and can afford a proper surgery internationally. Admittedly this is still a better situation than in countries where insurance never ever pays anything because they dont believe that being transsexual is a sort of birth defect or health issue and not some psychological imaginary idea. But the result is that a lot of people here get rather bad results and everyone will warn you about voice surgery, because a lot of people are getting surgeries but expect the ones availabe locally to be ok and dont even look elsewhere or dismiss the idea because of financial issues.

Quote from: Wynternight on March 14, 2015, 07:05:20 PM
Very interesting thread. I was firmly convinced Kim was the only way to go but now I'm looking into Haben. I don't have a particularly low voice (not sure what range I'm in) and I've never smoked so I'm starting to think that I could go with Haben and stay in the US and probably have a good result. I'll keep watching this thread for more info.

How are you doing now, Eva?

Hi Im OK and Im getting by fine with my voice  ;) From what I gather from my recordings and analysis I did gain 70-75hz at 4 months post op 8) The problem for me is I started at 100hz so my voice is still more androgynous than feminine... This recording seems centered at about 170-175hz... I feel like since having this surgery the muscles I used to use to get my trained voice and control resonance have gotten lazy because I dont have to use them with so much intensity...

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Cd31AiHQud

For reference, my old voice.... I used to have to do a lot of practice and a lot of effort to get this voice... Its effortless now ;) 8)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0zL3oSchaQn

Anjaq, Dr Haben told me he uses a dissolvable stitch that should be gone after 3 months... I cant see how anything could tear once its fully healed ???

Quote from: Eva on March 16, 2015, 11:04:34 AM
Hi Im OK and Im getting by fine with my voice  ;) From what I gather from my recordings and analysis I did gain 70-75hz at 4 months post op 8) The problem for me is I started at 100hz so my voice is still more androgynous than feminine... This recording seems centered at about 170-175hz... I feel like since having this surgery the muscles I used to use to get my trained voice and control resonance have gotten lazy because I dont have to use them with so much intensity...

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Cd31AiHQud

For reference, my old voice.... I used to have to do a lot of practice and a lot of effort to get this voice... Its effortless now ;) 8)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0zL3oSchaQn

I just wanted to add Im sure it would be a little better if I wouldn't have started smoking again for the last 2 weeks  ::)  I really need to quit again :( ;)

Tsts - why would you actually want to start smoking again after you managed to get rid of that voice destructive habit :P

I dont really know if dissolvable stitches are in any way not so good as permanent ones. Dr Kim explained to me that a main feature of the permanent ones seems to be that he can make the sutures tighter and secure the knots better. Apparently they are not supposed to take any of the strain using the voice puts on the suture area in the long run. So I dont really know - maybe they also stabilize the commissure, but I cannot say for sure. If the stitches dissolve only after 3 months , I guess that is ok. If they would dissolve earlier than 2 months I would be a bit careful, because in that time the scar tissue is still forming and should not expand but still be kept small by the sutures still in place.

Your vocal range is still rather restricted - do you know why? Did you also get Botox or is this just something you have to expand now again with voice therapy? Or is it simply that the healing takes more time? Dr Kim said to me it will kare 4 months until I gain my pitch and then up to a year for the voice to get back to its volume and pitch range and all of that. So apparently it just takes a long time and the healing duration seems very comparable (Dr Haben and Dr Kim that is)

Well for my first time ever quitting in 31 years I think going more than 4 months cold turkey is pretty good.... I donno I do enjoy it I guess but Im not happy I started again :(

Again I never had a Botox anything, just a web done along with "laser thinning" that was just supposed to ad a breathy quality to my voice and its subtle but I think it has... Id also think reducing the mass would increase pitch a little but who knows  ??? As far as limited range??? Well I never had much up there to begin with.... My understanding is the Web Glottoplasty does little to raise absolute pitch because it shortens rather than stretching the vocal cords.... Its just supposed to raise your fundamental frequency I gather... Its done some to cut off lower frequencies but nothing to increase my upper frequencies, just raised my comfortable pitch about 75hz as promised... Im sure voice training and therapy could only help but there is none to be found here... Like I said I also feel like any conditioning I may have had before from using so much effort to control my voice isnt there anymore either because there is no more effort to speak at the same frequency as my old trained voice... I dont practice it at all anymore and I used to do that a lot ;) I can hear an improvement for sure in my before after recordings, I just want more but Im afraid of screwing things up :-\

So Im happy with it for sure but perhaps disappointed I didnt see more increase .)

But 75 sounds like a good improvement. I have already made my first appointment at a speech therapist for when the 2 months are over. I actually like it there. its fun. Probably more than those 5xdaily voice exercises from Dr Kim. This is going to be annoying but supposedly they really improve the voice, pitch range an resonance...

Id love to see the specifics on Yeson's voice exercises ??? I never did any "exercises" to increase pitch aside from talking in my highest falsetto and then lowering it a bit to get my mixed voice...  I did learn how to control my muscles and always speak with my adams apple raised up with the same muscles I use to swallow....  I can definitely get a 2-3 notes higher and around 200hz if I do that but its very tiring, sounds and feels forced and the whole point of this to me was to make talking in the female range easier if not effortless... But Dr Haben also points out that voice therapy and training is necessary to be perceived as female surgery or not... There is just nothing to be found here in rural SD USA... I have no idea where to start on my own there but Id consider it for sure over doing more surgery I may not need :-\

The exercises are on the website I believe.

Some of the exercises are on the Yeson website as video. I can also send you a copy of the two page instructions I received. Mainly it seem to be singers exercises - lip trills, glissando, resonance exercises - relaxation, pitch range expansion, airflow, ... some of them I already knew from voice rehab.

Dr Kim specifically said not to use that dort of deliberately increase in pitch after his surgery as it would end up too high and forced. I am not sure about the whole resonance issue - in a way that still has to be done, but apparently not too much by lifting up the larynx ( or the "adams apple") so much.

Quote from: Eva on March 17, 2015, 10:04:11 AM
But Dr Haben also points out that voice therapy and training is necessary to be perceived as female surgery or not... There is just nothing to be found here in rural SD USA... I have no idea where to start on my own there but Id consider it for sure over doing more surgery I may not need :-\

I dont think more surgery can solve everything. It is a voice supportive surgery, not really a voice feminization in the sense that it could cure all issues with the voice. It was said some dozend times here and by the surgeons - you need voice training in any case, just with surgery there is less that has to be done and it should be easier. Maybe you can get some voice therapists who do Skype sessions. Also  - you do not necessarily have to find a transgender voice therapist - just any voice therapist who can do voice rehabilitation should do for many issues. After all they also have to deal with women who want to improve their voices to be clearer and more feminine maybe even.

Well I find that to really sound good its not really a matter of controlling resonance but controlling breathing, prosody and trying to speak clearly instead of slurring my words ... Believe it or not it was my Mom who pointed out to me that if I just speak softly without trying to force it it sounds very good ;) She pointed out that women usually speak softly, at least she does anyway.... That was a big help, I have a hard time sounding good if I have to be loud or if Im excited about something :-\ It still seems weak sometimes and I can only hope I still have some healing to go and things strengthen... Thats my fear with the CTA, ending up even more monotone and with an even weaker voice even if its higher pitched...

Anjaq Id be very interested in a copy of Dr Kims voice exercises, if you can post them here that would be great, if not please PM my for my email address ;)  Like I said Im clueless and I have no idea what the heck a "lip trill" is :-\ It sounds like its just maybe exercising the cords and using all your upper range just making sounds and not necessary speaking and possibly expanding it through conditioning ???

I'll look on Yeson's site for the video mentioned... I know of no speech therapy around here at all but even if there is Id be interested in trying some things myself first  ;) 

Yes definitely prosody and all the other things you mentioned are very much important.

I was afraid of CTA as well, which is why I never really considered it an option. Using the pitch range in speaking is a very feminine trait. CTA seems to not really make that easier. Without CTA it seems to be mainly an issue of getting used to it and training the muscles and the brain to use different pitches. When I started voice rehab, I could go up to the "break" at around 300-something Hz and then I sprang into falsetto and that went up a bit. With voice rehab, just doing the airflow liptrill exercises I managed to go more easily over the break and to increase my upper range so much that my voice therapist kind of is at her limit as well in makting sounds in that pitch. That was really amazing. And a lot of it is about actually letting go and relax. I am not sure if the exercises are made to be public, so I dont really want to post them. I will write you a message though. But check out the videos and you can look on youtube for lip trills, glissandos (in combination is possible).

Speech therapy is fun and there seem to be a lot of them around. many dealing a lot with old people, people who had some other sort of surgery at the larynx or who stutter or children who are not speaking clearly , maybe because thea are hearing imparied. Also a lot of hearing impaired people get voice therapy because they may have issues with their voices as well if they cannot hear themselves speaking. So a lot of people do get some sort of voice therapy - maybe look for voice rehab, voice therapy, speech therapy - anything like that and not just voice training - the latter sort of implies someone who has a good voice but wants to learn how to sing, speak in public, anything fancy like that. But the others are mor focussed on medical issues and at least in Germany usually this is even covered by health insurance if an ENT puts a diagnosis up saying you have some sort of speech problem, especially if you are in a job that requires speech.

Well from what Ive seen so far its interesting and easy enough to try ;) Before I had this surgery I really did have my falsetto up there, I could hit 350hz peaks and a 210hz average IF I really tried, but it was a lot of effort... I did a lot of that and it did seem to help with my mixed voice... Since having the surgery my falsetto is nowhere near where it was... I think most of that has to be from no longer using falsetto and just losing conditioning due to not having to try to increase pitch... I feel like if I could easily get up around 200hz even if with a little effort Id be OK with it as is... There has to be some simple exercises I can do to get 2-3 notes higher comfortably even if I need to use some effort... Ive done absolutely nothing to attempt to improve my voice as far as exercises goes, there's gotta be something I can do...

I think I might look into speech therapy too and maybe not even mentioning the trans part to get started and see what happens... Yes I bet my insurance would cover it too if they coded it right...

Again Id appreciate whatever you can send me, thanks  ;)

Well - I would not mention anything about trans. Just tell them you have voice issues, you feel like you are limited and you tire quickly if you are using more of a range. something like that. Just say how it is now. If they really want to know you can say you had a surgery to cure "Androphonia", which is the term used if a woman has a more male-ish voice, usually from smoking too much or from having hormonal issues. Its not even a lie, right? ;)

350 Hz seems like it is still below the break into the head voice - was that your top highest note you could produce? If so, that sounds like you have just not "discovered" your head voice yet :o - For me, the voice went from 85 Hz to about 300, then I hit that break, and I went on at 400+ Hz and then up some - with some voice training that gap between 350 and 4xx was filled and the "up some" went up to 900 Hz. (in the second image here you can see the former "gap" - its where the volume still drops. (x-axis is frequency, y axis is loudness, the "black=loud voice" and "blue=soft voice" dots are my pitch).

Of course this was pre op, so I have no idea what happens now, but I think it shows that voice therapy can loosen up some parts of the voice that are not accessible without it.

Pre-voice therapy:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVspEJ03.jpg&hash=e0e5a09b8b480e0e558b1d32c536fd7e1880be0a)
After 3 months of voice therapy:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZOsvgys.jpg&hash=4fdfa31b715827f87b971841d0195931f3fd3355)

Thanks for the info from Yeson, yea it is a bit of a mystery without any other instruction but I think I get it  ;)

350hz peaks while talking in falsetto is what I meant, I never tried to record or analyze my absolute highest pitch... Id just practice things Id find in youtube videos... My range while talking went from a LOW low of 45hz up to about 350hz peaks in my highest falsetto voice which was about 210-220hz averaged and my trained voice was about what I have now at 175hz but with a lot more effort... Its now more like an absolute low of 100hz and a high of about 280hz if Im really trying... Like I said though my falsetto is nowhere near what it used to be even when I was smoking up to 3 packs of cigs a day before the surgery ??? So I wonder if I just need to do some exercises to get my higher range back or possibly even increase it...

Yes I like your ideas for getting in a speech therapists door around here if there even is one to be found ;D I can see no reason to disclose that at first or even possibly ever... If I was comfortable with the doc I probably would though if I thought it would help ;)

Hmm -I guess I am stumbling again over the definition of "falsetto" here... But yes, I think some training is almost mandatory ;) - I think there is a reason why Dr Kim recommended to do these exercises 5 times a day beginning after 2 months to make the new voice flexible and to get used to it and to learn how to use it properly and all that. And Dr Haben says the same, that you should do voice exercises and voice therapy, so you really should not skip this if you want to make the best out of your new voice :)

Well Ive done ZERO training or exercises, this is just me rambling as usual....

Its been 5 months now post op and I feel like If I make an effort its not too bad but nowhere near as great as some Ive heard here surgery or not :-\ :(

I know Im a dummy but Im still smoking ::) It is what it is and I do seem to get by fine but I gotta be really careful on the phone :-\  All my GF's smoke and most of the guys I meet do too so its really hard not to around them...

I can hear maybe a very slight improvement from last month, not sure... Im not expecting much more improvement but I guess in time it is possible...

Ive just decided to stop worrying about it and make the best of it and get on with life for now anyway ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QuL8cfNPxp

Oh - the elevated part sounds not good, yeah, bett stick to the natural speaking. I think pitchwise it is quite ok, but I suspect with some voice training you could improve the sound of it ... ("resonance" and all these things). And I think definitely smoking is not a good idea - did you smoke within the "no smoking" time that Yeson ususally prescribes? Like 3 months or so? If so, I am sure it slows down healing... then it may take some more time to heal. Have you gotten rid of the hoarseness and did you regain volume?


I decided to finally make a recording yesterday that I am more comfortable sharing. Its in German though. I tried a rainbow passage as well, but it came out increadibly hoarse, so I postpone this ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G

I have good days and bad days - evenings are always worse, days after talink a lot are bad... Its quite an up and down, but on a good day and in the morning this is how its natural. I hope that the times it is like this will get more and more and that there will still be some pitch increase coming along.

Sounds quite good.

Quote from: anjaq on April 12, 2015, 08:27:31 AM
Oh - the elevated part sounds not good, yeah, bett stick to the natural speaking. I think pitchwise it is quite ok, but I suspect with some voice training you could improve the sound of it ... ("resonance" and all these things). And I think definitely smoking is not a good idea - did you smoke within the "no smoking" time that Yeson ususally prescribes? Like 3 months or so? If so, I am sure it slows down healing... then it may take some more time to heal. Have you gotten rid of the hoarseness and did you regain volume?


I decided to finally make a recording yesterday that I am more comfortable sharing. Its in German though. I tried a rainbow passage as well, but it came out increadibly hoarse, so I postpone this ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G

I have good days and bad days - evenings are always worse, days after talink a lot are bad... Its quite an up and down, but on a good day and in the morning this is how its natural. I hope that the times it is like this will get more and more and that there will still be some pitch increase coming along.

Anja, sounds great!  It definitely sounds feminine to me and considering how early you are in your recovery I expect it to get even better.  I think you are going to have a lovely voice and pretty soon the "good days" are going to become the norm.  :)

Quote from: anjaq on April 12, 2015, 08:27:31 AM
Oh - the elevated part sounds not good, yeah, bett stick to the natural speaking. I think pitchwise it is quite ok, but I suspect with some voice training you could improve the sound of it ... ("resonance" and all these things). And I think definitely smoking is not a good idea - did you smoke within the "no smoking" time that Yeson ususally prescribes? Like 3 months or so? If so, I am sure it slows down healing... then it may take some more time to heal. Have you gotten rid of the hoarseness and did you regain volume?


I decided to finally make a recording yesterday that I am more comfortable sharing. Its in German though. I tried a rainbow passage as well, but it came out increadibly hoarse, so I postpone this ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G

I have good days and bad days - evenings are always worse, days after talink a lot are bad... Its quite an up and down, but on a good day and in the morning this is how its natural. I hope that the times it is like this will get more and more and that there will still be some pitch increase coming along.

Hey Anjaq I think you sound very feminine even though I cant understand a word of it :D :P
I do remember your old voice and I think your gonna be happy in a few months when its more healed, congrats ;)

No I didn't smoke much at all for the first three months after surgery because I had to quit for FFS... I started again about three weeks after FFS and Im about ready to try quitting again, gonna have to soon for SRS hopefully in the fall :) 

Yea Im sure quitting and some voice therapy would help but there is just none to be found here...

I can do well enough on the phone now anyway... I also find that if Im out on a date with a guy I seem to do pretty good, I don't worry about it anymore unless Im somewhere I have to try talk loud, its just not there.... Im sure I could improve that maybe just by trying to sing and just exercising things but I'll admit Im just lazy.... RLE is my training and "therapy" :laugh:

Thanks Green Rabbit I appreciate it :)

Quote from: anjaq on April 12, 2015, 08:27:31 AM
Oh - the elevated part sounds not good, yeah, bett stick to the natural speaking. I think pitchwise it is quite ok, but I suspect with some voice training you could improve the sound of it ... ("resonance" and all these things). And I think definitely smoking is not a good idea - did you smoke within the "no smoking" time that Yeson ususally prescribes? Like 3 months or so? If so, I am sure it slows down healing... then it may take some more time to heal. Have you gotten rid of the hoarseness and did you regain volume?


I decided to finally make a recording yesterday that I am more comfortable sharing. Its in German though. I tried a rainbow passage as well, but it came out increadibly hoarse, so I postpone this ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G

I have good days and bad days - evenings are always worse, days after talink a lot are bad... Its quite an up and down, but on a good day and in the morning this is how its natural. I hope that the times it is like this will get more and more and that there will still be some pitch increase coming along.

That sounds like the old days of DW shortwave radio to be honest. :) congrats you're sounding good!

This is my first post on this board and I haven't been lurking for more that a few day so if get out of line let me know and be brutal about it as I have a thick skin. My surgery date was 1982 and I went through a good deal of speech therapy because I had a very low voice. My current voice falls apart around E3(female should be C4) and I have to work a bit below that for inflection. This puts me between the male and female range and combined with my 5 foot 14 inch hight has resulted in some looks over the years and thus the thick skin. A new neighbor, the fact I have only been in the city 4 years combined with a close death 2 years ago has finally motivated me to get out of my comfort zone and look into what's new in the voice world. While I knew about this surgery, my brain has been on overload for 3 days taking in the surgery, youtube and even some of the useful tools out there for my iPhone. I have been pitching my voice all these years because for a long time nothing else was available. I have no desire to dredge up the old voice and I last used in it 1979 so it's natural for me to alway fall into the somewhat higher voice. I came to this thread because Dr. Haben looks to be my best bet if the other non-surgical options don't pan out. I would be flying out of Phoenix but Portland scares me and the lack of information on Korea makes me nervous. Every surgery I had turned out great(for the time) and I don't want to risk making a mistake now.

Now to get on topic. Eva, I heard the voices that were still available and when you put the effort in, I could never tell you were ever anything other than a woman. Now here is were I might step out of line. The big problem is that you feel the old male urge to fill the empty space with sound. Yes, I used to do it to. You say aaaahhhhhh, uuuummmm and you stretch words out to fill the void. Female speech is alway moving around from frequency to frequency and never stopping for more than a fraction of a second. The way I broke this habit was to keep my mouth shut until I had assemble a full sentence in my head before starting to speak. If I had a laps of thought I would stop and not fill in the void.
As for revision surgery, if my voice was like that, I would be happy to continue pitch my voice into the upper range. In addition, I think most GG's do that already. Many women have lower voice than their normal speaking range and do exactly what we do, just not as far. I suspect it has something to do with the fact their voice never broke so they didn't learn how to use the lower register.

As always, revision surgery will be your decision but in any case, you really need some speech therapy to make the beautiful voice of yours shine. I am still in the process of gathering some tools to do self administrated speech therapy and the package could be had for under $150. From what I understand about the voice surgery, it takes care of 50% of the problem and solves the pitch issues. The other 50% is learning how to use the new voice and break years of old habits. That could be the hardest part of the whole process. I fully understand that if I have the surgery, I will need to put in months of work making the new voice as comfortable as my current one.

Time to put this rambling post up where somebody can see it and with my current record of defending gender reassignment on another site resulting in deleted posts, it will be interesting to see if this one sticks. I take a real beating over there but I am a glutton for punishment for a worthwhile cause.

Hi Everything. Welcome to Susan's. I look forward to seeing you around the site. Good luck and Hugs
Mariah

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Quote from: Dena on May 24, 2015, 10:18:17 PM
This is my first post on this board and I haven't been lurking for more that a few day so if get out of line let me know and be brutal about it as I have a thick skin. My surgery date was 1982 and I went through a good deal of speech therapy because I had a very low voice. My current voice falls apart around E3(female should be C4) and I have to work a bit below that for inflection. This puts me between the male and female range and combined with my 5 foot 14 inch hight has resulted in some looks over the years and thus the thick skin. A new neighbor, the fact I have only been in the city 4 years combined with a close death 2 years ago has finally motivated me to get out of my comfort zone and look into what's new in the voice world. While I knew about this surgery, my brain has been on overload for 3 days taking in the surgery, youtube and even some of the useful tools out there for my iPhone. I have been pitching my voice all these years because for a long time nothing else was available. I have no desire to dredge up the old voice and I last used in it 1979 so it's natural for me to alway fall into the somewhat higher voice. I came to this thread because Dr. Haben looks to be my best bet if the other non-surgical options don't pan out. I would be flying out of Phoenix but Portland scares me and the lack of information on Korea makes me nervous. Every surgery I had turned out great(for the time) and I don't want to risk making a mistake now.

Now to get on topic. Eva, I heard the voices that were still available and when you put the effort in, I could never tell you were ever anything other than a woman. Now here is were I might step out of line. The big problem is that you feel the old male urge to fill the empty space with sound. Yes, I used to do it to. You say aaaahhhhhh, uuuummmm and you stretch words out to fill the void. Female speech is alway moving around from frequency to frequency and never stopping for more than a fraction of a second. The way I broke this habit was to keep my mouth shut until I had assemble a full sentence in my head before starting to speak. If I had a laps of thought I would stop and not fill in the void.
As for revision surgery, if my voice was like that, I would be happy to continue pitch my voice into the upper range. In addition, I think most GG's do that already. Many women have lower voice than their normal speaking range and do exactly what we do, just not as far. I suspect it has something to do with the fact their voice never broke so they didn't learn how to use the lower register.

As always, revision surgery will be your decision but in any case, you really need some speech therapy to make the beautiful voice of yours shine. I am still in the process of gathering some tools to do self administrated speech therapy and the package could be had for under $150. From what I understand about the voice surgery, it takes care of 50% of the problem and solves the pitch issues. The other 50% is learning how to use the new voice and break years of old habits. That could be the hardest part of the whole process. I fully understand that if I have the surgery, I will need to put in months of work making the new voice as comfortable as my current one.

Time to put this rambling post up where somebody can see it and with my current record of defending gender reassignment on another site resulting in deleted posts, it will be interesting to see if this one sticks. I take a real beating over there but I am a glutton for punishment for a worthwhile cause.

Hi Dena Thanks, I just quoted you so your post will stick as long as mine is here, welcome  :) 

I don't make it to this section much anymore because Ive just decided to not worry about my voice anymore and get on with life ;) Im still not really happy with it but it also isn't really a problem for me either... My problem is I tend to try to compare myself to the prettiest cis women which is just not realistic or helpful... 100K + in surgery and suffering will never turn me into a 28 year old beauty  :( (But Im gonna do it all anyway) What does help however is to compare myself to myself when evaluating my progress and in that regard Im very happy at least ;D  Im sure not getting any younger (46) and obsessing over myself is sure getting exhausting... Ive decided to try turning my focus outward now and worrying less about the body and more about everything else... Making changes for the better with my home, finances, and even my job  ;)

No I understand exactly what you mean, I have very thick skin as well (goes with the territory), and you are correct that VFS will only correct about 50% of the problem... I can tell you it has really helped me a lot but there are still times I get sir'ed on the phone if Im not careful :( That said I doubt very much it has as much to do with pitch though mine could be higher as using the old male speech pattern.... Its like I can even tell when Im doing that these days and at least more and more a feminine voice is becoming my "normal" effortless voice anyway... Im sure speech therapy would no doubt help but there is none to be had here and honestly I don't feel like it, there are just so many other things to do :P

I haven't updated this thread in a while with a voice recording and I wont right now because I have seasonal allergies really messing with me right now :-\ :'( 

All that said Dr Haben is a great guy and Im very thankful that this surgery is even possible... He does all of us a great service, he's very competent, honest and compassionate and even reasonably priced ;) As much as I might complain about my voice I definitely have ZERO regrets and it was worth every penny :)

Quote from: Dena on May 24, 2015, 10:18:17 PM
The big problem is that you feel the old male urge to fill the empty space with sound. Yes, I used to do it to. You say aaaahhhhhh, uuuummmm and you stretch words out to fill the void. Female speech is alway moving around from frequency to frequency and never stopping for more than a fraction of a second. The way I broke this habit was to keep my mouth shut until I had assemble a full sentence in my head before starting to speak. If I had a laps of thought I would stop and not fill in the void.

This is good advice. I still have that problem and did not even notice I do this or that it is considered male until a friend pointed it out to me a while ago. i try to work on that now as well.

QuoteTime to put this rambling post up where somebody can see it and with my current record of defending gender reassignment on another site resulting in deleted posts, it will be interesting to see if this one sticks. I take a real beating over there but I am a glutton for punishment for a worthwhile cause.

I dont really understand - they deleted posts of you because you were in favour of "gender reassignment"? Was that because you defended the genital surgery as such or because you called it gender reassignmet surgery and not one of the newer, more "politically correct" terms?

Ah screw it, here's an old recording from last October from before my surgery, I can say I at least CANT go back as deep as it used to be  :) I dont feel like Ive gained much if any increase in pitch but I do feel like it sounds a lot more natural and a lot less forced now... Most of the time I just don't even think about it or worry about it anymore... It is what it is ;)

This recording will self destruct in a week or two but it's my old voice :P

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0mZ0X6EKcId

These damn allergies from all the pollen get to me every spring  :'( 6 1/2 months post op...

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0zRauO3Cx1G

Delete post -  I was on a conservative web site as I am a conservative but it shocks me a little bit. First we see how much the liberals rant in this country and I had hoped we conservatives would behave better. Wrong. Conservatives rant just as bad and the only difference is the subject. It anybody and adult anymore. Well I suspect there are many more on this web site than in the rest of the country.

What happened is the subject got around to young children and I explained how hormone blockers allow more time for the child to make up their mind and reduce the impact of puberty should they decide to switch roles. I got in just after the entry was flagged and I was accused of being a child abuser and a sexual deviant. Well maybe I might be considered a deviant in some circles but not for sexual reasons and I would never do anything to hurt a child. My post vanished and I suspect it was a moderator who didn't understand the issue and made the whole thing go away. To their credit, most of my post did stick even though many showed their displeasure for what I was saying.

I fully expected to get bloody and bruised on that web site because so few people still understand the whole TS issue. I went there to at least shine some light on the misconceptions. Because it's public knowledge who runs the entire operation and he has a public email and he claims to be an explore of knowledge, I wrote a polite pointed email and invited him or his staff to contact me about the issue. It's been a couple of weeks and I am still wait. Not that I really expected anything but it's my nature to try. After all, the worst thing that could happen is nothing.

Funny thing is I estimate there are around half a dozen TS or post running around on that site. When I post there I remain under cover because some of the people who work around me might be on that site and I have so many others to use as examples, it's better to be an expert than an example in this case. It keeps the argument on topic instead of personal attack.  One XXXY and a MTF went public but my vote count being so low does funny things and it would take about that number to do what I see. It would be interesting to know how many on this site also play around in those sites.

Eva I am going to do it again. I hope you don't use the language in your speaking voice that you use in your postings. If I ever used cuss words around my parents I would have have been corrected right now. When my roommate transitioned I had to clean up her language as she worked on the flight line for TWA. I didn't out her because she passed away 2 years ago and she changed on the job so everybody in the airline knew. I find other ways to get the message across such as saying "dirty word" and leave it up to the other person to fill in the blank. Cussing like a sailor draws attention to examine you more closely. With a GG they find a foul mouthed woman. We will never be perfect so we want to draw as little attention to our flaws as possible and let them take our beauty in instead and that last voice sample was beautiful.

It's really funny how little flaws in what we say or how we say it can be pretty much exclusively male and tip the other person off even though that other person may not understand why they have a reason to be suspicious.

Dena you may be right, Id never talk like that in front of my parents and surely I can fem things up all "proper" should the occasion call for it like work or a date....  Im unfortunately NOT a "GG", I was raised male and I haven't been at this transition business for very long either, about 1 1/2 years... I am who I am here especially though  ;)  Oh and I am pretty "conservative" as well but more what Id call libertarian, I CHOOSE to live in SD after all and Im very into the gun culture as well  ;)

Thanks though my voice sucks in my mind but people tell me it isnt bad at all so I just try to not worry about it so much anymore  :)
 

I call myself more of a constitutionalist if you want a proper label. Well if you have only been in it 1 1/2 years I will cut you some slack as old habits die hard and I was still looking at myself pretty hard 2 years after surgery or 4 years after starting full time. As for giving up your past, you can't. I learned how to fix everything, programmed computers for 40 years and know a good deal about electronics and machines. I am sure it's not helping my image when people are having a problem fixing something and I walk over and fix it for them. Trap shooting was something I picked up after surgery. There are just sometimes when you don't care if you out yourself. Hopefully it's after people find out that you are a nice person to have around.

Very few people can judge their own voice. I think it has something to do with hearing your speech pattern so you know the voice is yours but what you are hearing on the recorder isn't matching what you heard through your head bones. I don't have that problem with recordings of my voice but I can now be detached from what I am hearing. It must have something with applying what I learned because it wasn't always that way. I also used to slur my words and forcing my self into a faster speech delivery by pre thinking what I will say eliminated that. Adding more inflection made a difference and made my delivery more interesting to me anyway. It's still not right but this is the first time I took a good look at it after many years. I think working so close to it's upper limits I could do more with it if I dropped the botom  but I already have far to much base in it.

The sample after your mother told you what to do is the one I am talking about. The pitch was good and sound quality was almost sexy but far enough away that the people you won't think you are attempting to take them to bed. It is the perfect telephone voice if you can maintain it. I can think of only one voice I like better and that was a receptionist that worked in our office and I wonder how many hearts she broke while placing our customers calls. She didn't work on her voice but it just naturally came out that way. She was even a bit surprised when I explained to her what others heard in her voice. And no, I didn't tell her how I knew that and why I was interested.   I think many GGs could get that type of voice if they just put a little effort into it. My neighbor is a Georgia girl with the accent and while she is a very nice person, her voice has a hard edge on it from the regional accent. She doesn't want to change it and because I know how much work it would be to change it, I will let her be happy with it.

 :police: Lets take the political talk elsewhere and get back on topic.
Thanks
Mariah

I dont think cussing is exclusively male anymore. Maybe in some social environments the classic role models of feminine and masculine behaviour still are important, but I am not sure one has to bow to them just to be accepted. I am not a person who deliberately breaks gender stereotypes out of political desire or some notion that trans people should do this. But I do refuse to follow stereotypes if they dont go along with what I want to do. So yes, I do go there and fix a computer if someone struggles with it at work and I sometimes use bad words when I am angry. Maybe I am considered to be a dyke by some, but so be it. I agree on some parameters about language that are really strongly gendered - like inflection and voice melody and resonance, but I think those are mainly things that happen because of a female brain and throat development. I noticed for example that my shortened vocal chords now react a lot more to slight changes in muscle tension, so pitch variation is easier and just happens - at least if my brain goes into a relaxation and does not try to somehow produce the old voice that I was trained to use for a long time. But what topics to speak about and if one cusses or swears or not is in my opinion a purely social gender stereotype.

Cussing has become pretty common but at least in this country it still draw attention when it comes from the mouth of a woman. The whole trick to passing effectively is not to attract extra attention causing the viewer to look at you close. Yes sometimes you have to do something that will draw that attention and when that happens don't add to the distraction. Example would be to expect somebody to fix their computer and they send you. Viewer think well a woman was unexpected but she must have the skills to do the job or they wouldn't have sent her. While working you bang your hand and cuss. Viewer thinks can repair a computer and cuss like man, maybe I better think about this a little. The less the viewer thinks about you the better or at least that is my view.

I was wondering what it would be like to learn how to use the additional range and I though you might have to retrain your brain for more inflection. It sounds like you may not have to change as many habits to correctly access the new voice. That would speed up training and the main issue would be getting your hearing retrained to know when your voice is where it belongs. Still it means work to get it right but not as much.

I still have to get my voice recorded and I was going to do it yesterday but my neighbor called and I ended up with far to much second had smoke. A voice sample isn't good unless it's clean and that one wouldn't have been. I am not sure if I am going to escape the smoke tonight. I guess there is a good thing about choking up on smoke and that is I never picked up the habit.

Quote from: Dena on May 27, 2015, 11:09:53 AM
Cussing has become pretty common but at least in this country it still draw attention when it comes from the mouth of a woman. The whole trick to passing effectively is not to attract extra attention causing the viewer to look at you close. Yes sometimes you have to do something that will draw that attention and when that happens don't add to the distraction. Example would be to expect somebody to fix their computer and they send you. Viewer think well a woman was unexpected but she must have the skills to do the job or they wouldn't have sent her. While working you bang your hand and cuss. Viewer thinks can repair a computer and cuss like man, maybe I better think about this a little. The less the viewer thinks about you the better or at least that is my view.

That sounds very stressful. I want to let go and be who I am and not deny some parts of me - be that computer skills or cussing (is there a way that women cuss that is differently from "cuss like a man"?). I would rather not want to distract people from me - that would mean I would box myself up - isn't that a bad thing? It sounds like hiding a lot. I would not want to be regarded as trans either, but I also dont want to bend myself just to make people ignore me - I would rather think if they have contact with me, look at me, they will see me the right way...

QuoteI was wondering what it would be like to learn how to use the additional range and I though you might have to retrain your brain for more inflection. It sounds like you may not have to change as many habits to correctly access the new voice.

I guess it all depends on what you are doing now. I believe it is easier for me now, but others said it is harder for them. I am not sure why.

I dont think you would loose any abilities or voice parameters that you already had before the surgery - there are not so many changes happening there - if you know how to use resonance, projection, voice melody, inflection and all of that, you still can do the same thing after the surgery, just have to modify it a bit maybe

I think I may be a bit more passive than you in handling stress as I get up and walk around, go to the break room or go to the bathroom. Get my mind off it so I can go back refreshed. On the other hand, I can handle a good deal of stress.
Might also be I never have cussed and I never learned how to use it to release pressure. It might just be we are different  people and handle emotions different.

As for voice, that surgery keeps sounding more tempting. The one issue I have to think about is currently I am the only support for our product but there is someone who could handle support for a week or two. How long will it take to get a half usable voice on the phone. I go a very long time between calls so the odds of not getting a call in the 3 month recovery period are pretty good but one call might be possible.

I don't know if my mind is going or what but the instruction for recording my voice seem to have vanished or I forgot which thread they were on.

Well,,i don't cuss all the time if you think this of me now. I rarely do it and if so, I don't believe it is male... Hehe. Usually I just do what you do. Get out of the situation. But let's say a brick falls onto my foot, I will swear ;-)

Recovery from voice surgery is not fast. For me it was 4 weeks of absolute silence, then at least 2 weeks of talking not a lot. A couple of sentences a day. Basically as much as I would have written during the mute period. After 6 weeks, I was able to softly and without much volume have phone calls, explain not too complex things to students and such. This may be enough to do a phone support if the phone is good and you can talk in a low volume. I would day, the communication should be not too long. An hour of phone support may be difficult or result in a day or two of silence. After 8 weeks, things normalize and full voice use is allowed, but it will still be not a lot of volume and may get hoarse.

Quote from: Eva on May 26, 2015, 11:12:48 AM
These damn allergies from all the pollen get to me every spring  :'( 6 1/2 months post op...

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0zRauO3Cx1G

Hey Eva I've been following your posts, and with each update you sound better and better. I think you are sounding good :) I hope you are doing well.

Haven't been on here in a while but its good to see so many other Haben Girls 8) 

Haven't caught up with any of the threads but Im sure there are some very happy girls and some not as much...

To those that are still in recovery I can tell that after 9 months it WILL get better  ;)

I had the web glottoplasty and laser thinning and I gained about 6-7 notes... Not as much as Id hoped for but also a huge improvement... I simply no longer worry about my voice and it seems to work for me consistently on the phone now ;D

http://vocaroo.com/i/s03fzYkxFzSt

You sound great Eva! I'm going to go to Haben myself once I can afford it.