Susan's Place Transgender Resources

During the poll on whether androgynes exist, I've wondered about other androgyne's level of intensity of gender identity dysphoria or discomfort. As some of you know, I was m2f ts and did a rlt for over a year before deciding not to proceed further. During that time frame, my feelings of discomfort regarding being male were extremely intense, I wouldn't have transitioned otherwise. Since that time where I decided to just live as neither gender, or androgyne, I have still had occasional times where my levels of intensity changed, sometimes up, sometimes down. For me, it wasn't, decide I'm androgyne, and never think about it again. I suppose that this will always be a dynamic of my life. Anyway, just wondering what other people feel. Let me know if the option you wish to choose doesn't exist and I'll add it. Discussion of why you chose particular option welcome!

Zythyra

Somewhat intense, I can deal with it

No doubt I took some time to make up my mind between Extreme and Somewha, but the fact is; along time you come to accept that some options/some cures simply do not exist.

I have a female body. I am Androgyne. Every morning I spend a few minutes putting on three sports bra's and wishing I had a binder. To simply buy a binder and get my hair cut would already increase the quality of my life concerning dyshphoria, and I do wish for a breast reduction: to whatever reduced size that is medically possible/allowed (this would be considered cosmetical).

There is no null-hormone. Pumping testosterone into my body would only give me male sexual characteristics; it's called H-Replacement-T not H-Evaporation-T. So that option has been crossed out.

I have a female body. I am Androgyne. Every month I am confronted with that as estrogen runs through my body screaming, enlarging my breasts, wrecking my mood; and several days later I come down sick, in pain, and bleeding while feeling that the entire construction in my lower body has no function at all.

I am At(o)Z sexual; I have many sexual orientations and neither at the same time although the asexual aspect those play an important role. I have a female body, and I feel completely unrelated to my genitalia; it serves no function in my eyes either sexually or naturally. My womb allows me to carry a child, it does not allow me to become a mother; it's a backpack I was born with; one I can do without. The construction is there to allow me to urinate. Would an hysterectomy solve some of my issues; yes.

Nevertheless, this is a body I can work with; it is a body I can alter. It is a body I can live with considering the lack of choice I have. In the end, it all seems to circle back to acceptance.

Some believe that my dysphoria disqualifies me as an Androgyne, but I have yet to discover their reasoning behind this statement...

Woah dude, that's like totally extreeeeme.

Now I've figured out I'm not m2f I can't say for certain how I'd cope living in male role.  (I identify as somewhere between female and neutrois with just a little male popping its head up now and then).  I strongly suspect I'd be miserable, though maybe that's not entirely because my GID is so bad but also because I have strong dislike of having to hide my identity from people.  Militant, moi?!

I am rebuilding my life from scratch again and I see no reason to rise phoenix-like as anything except what I deep down want to be.

(I don't think HRT is necessarily a binary choice.  There are male CDs who take low level HRT to feminise them a little without stopping them being able to pass as male.  I wouldn't object to taking a little testosterone post-op to keep the correct balance of physical attributes.  If I have to keep topping up my hair removal now and then to save needing a breast reduction it's worth it.)

I hate my body.  As a child, I was fine with it.  Aside from between my legs, I was indistinguishable from my brother.  I was purely androgynous, like most children.  Those are the days I miss.  Before hormones woke up and changed me into something foreign.  Then I began to hate my body, to the point that even my wonderfully oblivious, negligent mother noticed.

Now.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not interested in looking like a child.  I want to still have that androgyny, though.

I bleed, once a month.  It's terrifying.  When it hits, no matter how prepared I am, it is like being socked in the gut, over and over--whether there is physical pain or not.  It's a betrayal.  Something I can't escape.  I have nightmares.  I become depressed--not from hormones, I'm quite sure, but from the betrayal.  My body does as it likes and it forgot to ask me.  That bleeding lasts for 7 days and it disgusts me.  Last month, I was within seconds of simply taking every pill in the house--painkiller, vitamin, anything.

My breasts, fortunately only a largish A, are a constant source of both amusement and pain.  They're amusing to play with now and then.  They jiggle.  They bounce.  They can be poked and prodded.  They look different when I stand up and when I lie down.  That said, I wish they'd go the ->-bleeped-<- away.  They decrease my range of movement, get banged off of stuff and have no function, past or future.  I prefer them to be bound down and put away so that I don't have to think about them or look at them or anything else.  I want them gone.

I've seen transsexuals say that the hormone dominant in their birth sex is like a poison to them.

In my case, both sets of hormones are a poison and they destroyed my body.

PS.  I chose extreme.  I'm considering top surgery to get rid of my tits and definitely want a hysterectomy.

I chose Changes...

I have a male body.  Unlike Tay and No_ID, my body does not betray me every month, nor have unwanted attachments that must be bound.  I have facial hair that I sometimes want and other times wish were completely gone, and tucking solves the other marker.

I have thought about HRT, and want some of the effects like finer body hair and even an increase in breast size.  But I don't want some of the other effects, so for right now, it is a no-go.  I have also thought about other ways to change my body such as a small BA, hair transplants to cover the receding hairline and bald spots, and possibly even electrolysis to get rid of the beard shadows.  Sometimes these are very important for me and other times, I couldn't care less.

....Laurry

I chose "changes," too. Usually I'm fine with my body. It's pwetty.  ;D  But sometimes I get extraordinarily uncomfortable being identified as "girl." It's not really what people say or how they treat me, it's how they see me, and how I see myself. Sometimes I look at my chest and think, "Woo! Boobies!" Other times I look at my chest and think, "Um... oh."

And, like no_id, I think a binder would improve my self-image a looooooooot. Though I have seriously considered breast reduction.

changes, sometimes intense, sometimes not.

    I seem to be having it now.   :'(  Not as bad as it could be, though.  It varies too.  Sometimes, I want the hangy things between my legs gone, other times I don't care.  Right now, it's because my stupid body is taller than it should be.  No hair where it should be and hair where it shouldn't be.

   I never want breasts, though.  That is why I consider myself Null gendered.  Also, I would prefer to not be acknowledged as any gender by others.  I guess I'm lucky I don't have the womanly thing between my legs.  I wouldn't mind it, but if it started bleeding, it would be like having it thrown in my face, so to speak.

i picked changable as sometimes its all i can think about and other times i dont pay any attention at all to it. sometimes i really want to just be myself and would like to be on hormones (low dose) and did try them for a short time felt really great too, but its not a clever thing to do on your own might revisit that when i feel right and can figure out how to explain it all to my gp. im currently somewhere in the middle of it all and im trying to sutally change my physical appeance with clothes hair stlye bit of make up and beard removal. this makes me feel better about myself but it still feels like a bit of a show or put on. not like when i was on hormones and i felt a mental change in myself too, like the real me sort of thing. also at the moment im sufering a little depression but can not tell if its due to all this or not. its hard to really know. anyway thats me 

i said mild.

I am fine with my body, i wish it would respond better - but i got a pretty face, nice eyes - quite a feminine face, big manly hands - all fun. like my hair and the way it chooses to do stuff, like my legs that can take me miles without complaining. Would like to be slicker, smoother, more debonair - but that would be a misrepresentation. Would like to not wear glasses, as I said, I like my eyes and would like to display them more. even like being a ginge.

but i do have some, maybe i'm wrong, but i think my kind of personality would be easier grasped, understood and enjoyed by those around me were i female-bodied. so it's not my body what's the problem, it's the false first impressions being a male body gives, which i think may be less stark if i were female. though hearing from our female bodied androgyne friends, i'm probably right off.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 17, 2007, 04:04:29 PM
i said mild.

I am fine with my body, i wish it would respond better - but i got a pretty face, nice eyes - quite a feminine face, big manly hands - all fun. like my hair and the way it chooses to do stuff, like my legs that can take me miles without complaining. Would like to be slicker, smoother, more debonair - but that would be a misrepresentation. Would like to not wear glasses, as I said, I like my eyes and would like to display them more. even like being a ginge.

but i do have some, maybe i'm wrong, but i think my kind of personality would be easier grasped, understood and enjoyed by those around me were i female-bodied. so it's not my body what's the problem, it's the false first impressions being a male body gives, which i think may be less stark if i were female. though hearing from our female bodied androgyne friends, i'm probably right off.

   You really are looking pretty.  I noticed it earlier and was going to PM you, but you just had to brag about it.  I wish I looked half as good as you do.   :'(

   I agree that being female bodied would fit better, but I would have to hide or remove the chest baggage.  I can't stand being looked at as me.  Maybe with a few improvements, but they are not going to happen.  The female body advantage is having hair and being able to use clothing of both genders for better effect.  In my opinion.

I said Mild. I realize that even if I was female entirely then Marq would be out of place instead of Mia. Rather then screw up my canvas by trying to mix all the colors, its much better to just refine myself with little changes that both could appreciate.

Mia and Marq

Quote from: Rebis on August 17, 2007, 09:58:47 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 17, 2007, 04:04:29 PM
i said mild.

I am fine with my body, i wish it would respond better - but i got a pretty face, nice eyes - quite a feminine face, big manly hands - all fun. like my hair and the way it chooses to do stuff, like my legs that can take me miles without complaining. Would like to be slicker, smoother, more debonair - but that would be a misrepresentation. Would like to not wear glasses, as I said, I like my eyes and would like to display them more. even like being a ginge.

but i do have some, maybe i'm wrong, but i think my kind of personality would be easier grasped, understood and enjoyed by those around me were i female-bodied. so it's not my body what's the problem, it's the false first impressions being a male body gives, which i think may be less stark if i were female. though hearing from our female bodied androgyne friends, i'm probably right off.

   You really are looking pretty.  I noticed it earlier and was going to PM you, but you just had to brag about it.  I wish I looked half as good as you do.   :'(

   I agree that being female bodied would fit better, but I would have to hide or remove the chest baggage.  I can't stand being looked at as me.  Maybe with a few improvements, but they are not going to happen.  The female body advantage is having hair and being able to use clothing of both genders for better effect.  In my opinion.

well its a very old photo (2 years) - i'm a worn haggard skank now.

Changes: sometimes extreme, sometimes almost nonexistent. That is, if seriously wanting SRS or HRT is extreme, as implied in the way the questions were phrased. I've spent quite a bit of time window-shopping for SRS surgeons, so that should qualify. Real anguish is pretty rare, though, and I've never been even close to clinical depression over this. In that sense it's not too bad, and all in all the 'changes' option fits. Also, I have no problems with the social gender I have: I'd already mostly tansitioned from male to androgyne years before I finally figured out what was going on.

Still, although I'm androgynous in gender I'd prefer to be female in sex. That has been clear to me about as long as I can remeber, and for example, I can even now feel the breasts I should have. Even that is not too extreme, though: it just dawned on me a few days ago that not only am I heterosexual on some level, having that sort of a relationship with my wife really is more important to me than my sex. In the end it doesn't matter very much which one of us is male and which one is female, as long as we are opposites. Being the 'male' one is one of the compromises I'm willing to make for the relationship, especially considering the state of the art for FtM bottom surgery :P

  Nfr

Thanks to everyone for sharing, this has been truly enlightening. Before posting this poll, I've often felt as though I was the only androgyne person who experienced this level of intensity, and due to this have sometimes questioned whether I'm really androgyne. I had to think about it a bit before voting, although in the past my dysphoria has been extreme enough to desire hrt, I identified as TS at that time. I ended up voting that it changes. Sometimes extreme, and sometimes I don't think about gender at all.

I'd prefer having female characteristics, but I deal with having a male body as best as I can. Right now the part that bothers me the most is my hair... I've always worn it long, and that helped with looking more androgynous, however I've been losing hair up top, and I think that makes me appear more male  :( I guess I can wear hats.

I look forward to more votes and continued discussion on this topic.

Zythyra

I can't stand being female, being treated as a woman. It's maddening.

I think if I'd been born male, I wouldn't be near so dysphoric, I'd be one of those well-adjusted psychological androgynes that Emerald mentions, the people who don't even know they're androgynes. Instead of my sex and the social-role and status assigned to it being a constant torment it'd just be, eh, a low grade irritation. I'd go about being myself and blase'ly confess that I'm not much of a man, but what the hell.

Then again,  my late-teens gender crisis (which made me want to transition and had me feeling terrible and savagely dysphoric for, I dunno, two years) was (I thought) resolved by me coming to find my sex and social-role/status to be a low-grade irritation, and I went about for the next decade or so being myself and blandly confessing that yeah, I'm not really a woman, what the hell. But whee, now it's all back worse than it was before and I don't frickin' know.

Quote from: Doc on August 19, 2007, 03:58:13 PM
I can't stand being female, being treated as a woman. It's maddening.

I think if I'd been born male, I wouldn't be near so dysphoric, I'd be one of those well-adjusted psychological androgynes that Emerald mentions, the people who don't even know they're androgynes. Instead of my sex and the social-role and status assigned to it being a constant torment it'd just be, eh, a low grade irritation. I'd go about being myself and blase'ly confess that I'm not much of a man, but what the hell.

Then again,  my late-teens gender crisis (which made me want to transition and had me feeling terrible and savagely dysphoric for, I dunno, two years) was (I thought) resolved by me coming to find my sex and social-role/status to be a low-grade irritation, and I went about for the next decade or so being myself and blandly confessing that yeah, I'm not really a woman, what the hell. But whee, now it's all back worse than it was before and I don't frickin' know.

     I think the same is happening to me.  It's different than it was before, though, because this time I know what my problem is.  Right now, it's not so devastating, but I am wary. I'm going to be careful about monitoring my feelings for a while so that I don't allow myself to crash.

     I wonder if it would make no difference what body we have?  I think I'd be better off female bodied  and you think you'd be better of male bodied.  It sure would be nice to know. I'm beginning to suspect it makes no difference.

     I curse the medical establishment [imagine an emoticon spitting on the ground].  They can turn men into women and are close to turning women into men, but nothing for us.

QuoteI curse the medical establishment [imagine an emoticon spitting on the ground].  They can turn men into women and are close to turning women into men, but nothing for us.

I curse the rigid binary society that doesn't allow for open expression of who we are!  >:(

Zythyra

Quote from: y2gender on August 19, 2007, 09:32:48 PM

QuoteI curse the medical establishment [imagine an emoticon spitting on the ground].  They can turn men into women and are close to turning women into men, but nothing for us.

I curse the rigid binary society that doesn't allow for open expression of who we are!  >:(

Zythyra

Good curse, Z!

Quote from: Rebis on August 19, 2007, 09:16:26 PM


     I curse the medical establishment [imagine an emoticon spitting on the ground].  They can turn men into women and are close to turning women into men, but nothing for us.

More than that, I curse the stereotypes present in the current incarnations of the DSM, as they prevent any likelihood of us being recognised any time soon.  It will be several more incarnations of DSM, I think, before there is ANY chance of us being recognised.  We're, to put it mildly, f***ed for probably another 15-20 years MINIMUM.  Probably more.

I have this recurring nightmare of being interviewed on a talkshow.  Where I've been fighting for years for us to be recognised and I'm being interviewed about how I feel about the fact that we have full recognition and can do what we want and need to transition.  At the end of the interview, the interviewer asks me what, if anything, I have planned for my own transition.  I look down at my hands--they're wrinkled and twisted by arthritis.  My response?  "Nothing.  I'm too old now.  I doubt they could help me and even if they could, it's not worth it now."

Good curse, Tay.

That dream is powerful and nearly overwhelmed me.

Quote from: Rebis on August 19, 2007, 09:54:37 PM

Quote from: y2gender on August 19, 2007, 09:32:48 PM

QuoteI curse the medical establishment [imagine an emoticon spitting on the ground].  They can turn men into women and are close to turning women into men, but nothing for us.

I curse the rigid binary society that doesn't allow for open expression of who we are!  >:(

Zythyra

Good curse, Z!

*nods*

Definitely.  As for the poll:

mild, it's really not bad at all

Used to be really bad a few months ago.  Right now I'm still on HRT (5 months) and now I'm thinking "Wait a minute..." and my GID isn't so bad...thinking of stopping HRT because I'm pretty content where I am now as just being a feminine person, but I'll always identify as a woman/female whatever my body is/isn't.

~Fae

*yawns and sips coffee*.. send me the flag and t-shirt and I'll go marching..  :icon_sleep:

Dang this topic!!!

Started thinking about this a few days ago when I originally responded and all of the sudden this weekend, BAM!!! It hit harder than ever and I ended up seriously contemplating whether SRS was in my future...sure ruined a light and frivolous weekend of doing nothing.   :(

Anyway, the dang thought is still rumbling around inside my head, and the desire to live full-time as female (with or without SRS) has been getting stronger by the day...

.....Laurry

QuoteDang this topic!!!

Sorry about that Laurry!

I know what you mean though, sometimes I'm going along just fine, not thinking about gender at all, and then someone posts a topic like this and I can't stop thinking about it. And yes, being androgyne is definitely a bit of a roller coaster ride ;D ::) Good luck figuring out the right path and just holler if you need to talk!

Zythyra

Next topic - "Is GID contagious?"

               Get away from from me you sick people.   Oh, it's too late, I've been suffering symptoms for a week.

QuoteGood curse, Z!

Thanks Rebis!

QuoteMore than that, I curse the stereotypes present in the current incarnations of the DSM, as they prevent any likelihood of us being recognised any time soon.  It will be several more incarnations of DSM, I think, before there is ANY chance of us being recognised.  We're, to put it mildly, f***ed for probably another 15-20 years MINIMUM.  Probably more.

Great curse Tay! Let's hope for quicker change than that. And wow, your dream was intense!

QuoteNext topic - "Is GID contagious?"

LOL. According to the fundies, it very well might be. We probably all caught GID from our radical androgyne elementary school teachers.  >:D

Z

Quote from: y2gender on August 20, 2007, 03:55:54 PM

QuoteNext topic - "Is GID contagious?"

LOL. According to the fundies, it very well might be. We probably all caught GID from our radical androgyne elementary school teachers.  >:D

Z

I, for one, didn't have any radical androgyne elementary school teachers.  Had a couple of CYT female teachers, and couple of "older than dirt" female teachers (who, now that I think about it, may have been men in drag) and a male teacher that was either gay or a pervert (he sure liked those 5-6 grade girls), not sure which....oh well, never mind...forget I said anything...Oops

I'm blaming mine on those wackos in Sunday School.  According to them, Jesus loved everybody unless you were brown..."Red and Yellow, Black and White, they are precious in his sight"...no brown anywhere...maybe I should send a note to Carlos Mencia, eh?

Still, I wonder if a trip to the free clinic could cure my GTD (Gender-Transmitted Disease)?

******* Bad pun warning *******************
So, dude, my GP said I got GID as a GTD from that GQ-andro at the last get-together.
"Groovy, man...does this mean you can now read minds?"

Hey, you were warned

....Laurry

Sometimes intense, but usually not. I'm not unhappy with the sex I was born with, but I wish I could be more of the other. I know that if I was somehow reborn the other sex, I would still feel the same way. If everyone was okay with who I am, I don't think it would matter as much.

Quote from: Laurry on August 20, 2007, 04:55:32 PM
******* Bad pun warning *******************
So, dude, my GP said I got GID as a GTD from that GQ-andro at the last get-together.
"Groovy, man...does this mean you can now read minds?"

Lol ;D

As for GID being contagious...
... Hell YES

If it hadn't been for these forums I never would have discovered GID and realised it the reason for why I wondered my breasts wouldn't fall off and considered myself a mental nuttcase that belonged in an institution right next to Angelina Jolie receiving EST(!) rather than figuring I was normal and small adjustments could make me happy!

FAREWELL O MY FUTURE LOVES OF ZANEX, PROZAC AND ZOLOFT!........ may thou rest in peace.

(and this is where the dude goes "Amen"...)

Quote from: Rebis on August 19, 2007, 09:16:26 PM

     I think the same is happening to me.  It's different than it was before, though, because this time I know what my problem is.  Right now, it's not so devastating, but I am wary. I'm going to be careful about monitoring my feelings for a while so that I don't allow myself to crash.

I'm rooting for you.

I used to feel like I was pretty damn cool, and pretty damn brave, going around being a transgender person and not trying to modify my body, but the last like five months it's just been hellish. I was always afraid that I'd have some kinda freak-out like this, having heard that "GID never goes away, it just gets worse with age," and I wonder if I'll ever be able to get stable again like I was, or if my fear was totally well-founded. And if I never was brave or cool, just too wimpy to transition. I still don't know.

QuoteI wonder if it would make no difference what body we have?  I think I'd be better off female bodied  and you think you'd be better of male bodied.  It sure would be nice to know. I'm beginning to suspect it makes no difference.

I think for me, it would make a difference. The question is, would it be enough of a difference to be worth it?

I am sure that getting rid of my breasts would make a big positive difference in my comfort. They are a pain. Binding is physically uncomfortable (in the summer, miserably so) and reminds me that they are there, but is better than having them brush against things or just be hanging there on my chest or jiggling and reminding me that they're there in a visual as well as tactile way. Given that the necessity of seeing a gatekeeper-shrink to get permission (dammit, I am a frickin' adult!) to get them removed doesn't inflate the cost ridiculously, getting ftm chest-reconstruction surgery would be well worth it.

But I also know that I'm driven to distraction and rage by my social-status as a woman. HRT would (probably) make me look like (and thus be treated as) well, the just the androgynous guy I feel myself to be. Some small, bookish-lookin' unmasculine guy. I'd like to wear some fruity girly-boy clothes and would do so if I were male, and don't now because they make me seem more female and I'm already more female than I can stand. But I suppose it's just possible that HRT would change my character and appearance to be more masculine than I want or feel now, and right now inside I feel exactly who I want to be. I just wish that little andro-guy wasn't buried in the externally-created woman-persona and so rendered a non-existant person. And HRT isn't a one-shot deal like a surgery, it's an ongoing life-long thing, needing hormone supplements is a handicap and I don't want a handicap I don't need to have. Add to that all these mentioned but ill-studied health risks that go with it -- potential need for hysterectomy, shortened life-span. Plus the risk that it would alienate the people I love most and destroy my marriage. All that cost, just for the sake of being socially 'read' as a weird, androgynous man rather than a weird androgynous woman? Logically, I can't fathom how that would be worth it. And yet it is soooo tempting.

I chose extreme. I hate my body very much, except the face, which isn't very masculine. I hate the body hair so much (which for some reason, is SO over-masculinized, that It scares me) and I hate how I have more of it than some middle aged men. Most actually. It genuinely disgusts me.

I'm really skinny, but my muscles are pretty ripped in some places. I don't mind this as much because I don't have any bulk. This is a curse however, mixed with allergies, because putting weight on is an effort. I'm trying to herbally feminize, and I seem to have hit a rut.

I would, however, question surgery at the moment. I know it makes you happier often, but I've seen the videos of it, and heard of keeping it healthy, and that scares me a ot. I want to be a girl, but not the binary stereotype, I'm way too weird. I'm constantly on the side of a coin, which can flip between waiting on science, or getting it as soon as possible. I really don't want to live stuck in-between, even if I am slightly androgynous anyway. I want science to make it much cleaner. If there were fully body transplants, I'd prefer that over anything. That way, I'd feel comfortable in my body, and not have such a damaged shell which depresses and hinders me. I can dream, or hope. I guess If I don't see some new ideas besides the gory reality of modern SRS, I may go for it one day, but I am young and still tend to have dreams. I guess Science has deeply interested me over the years because it has a relevance to my own life's struggles. Its the thought that something advanced like that may one day be possible.

I consider SRS, the extreme, because I seriously feel not right in my own body. I wish it were flat and smooth down there. I wish I had boobs. I prefer to not be ruled by pure-testosterone, which makes my body feel unclean, which hinders my ambition with the sex drive, which makes me more like the monkeys I hate the most...The ones we came from.

The permanent quality of it all really scares me, but what are you gonna do?

As for it being contagious, I thought so for a while...That I was just making new pathways in my brain to be pre-disposed to thinking that way. I did look at a lot of weird TG stuff growing up in puberty early on. However, I've thought lately that all those cartoon things which made me question it in the first place are WAY too obscure for me to have just picked up on it. I think I remember wishing I were the villain of Dragon Ball Z way before puberty (who was pretty androgynous, but was more feminine than anything), but the only reason I remember is imagining having the same crotch. The fantasies were way too obscure. As puberty went through more, I questioned my orientation more than gender, but I started realizing that I still liked girls. I just didn't like my own role in the relationship. I didn't want to be the male side, but I still liked girls. So I guess how I came to this. Not through brainwash really, or contagion, but by random things shedding light on that part of my mind.

I myself am probably sounding really obscure and weird right now. Ha...

This topic is so interesting when casting it in the light of the previous topics about whether androgyny is real.

It would seem from these responses that androgyny is the hiding or resting place of the indecisive or the cowardly. Maybe sometimes it is...but those who said that androgyny does not exist would have a lot of points to make based on this thread.

Yet even Doc, who seems to say that they would actually like to transition FtM, says that they want to become a male bodied androgyne Seems interesting that the mind is still androgyne, but the body wants to change. Seems to be something in that to tease out on a train journey or walk.

Deviousxen on the other hand seems to me to be an MtF, just an MtF that wants to become an androgynous female, and is confusing physical with psychological androgyny. I may be very, very wrong....It seems strange to me that they would be happiest with a full body swap - that being in a body with which they have absolutely no history with is better than the one that has followed their whole life. That they would feel more authentic in a body that is not theirs at all...meh.

Seems to be something to think about.

QuoteThis topic is so interesting when casting it in the light of the previous topics about whether androgyny is real.

It would seem from these responses that androgyny is the hiding or resting place of the indecisive or the cowardly. Maybe sometimes it is...but those who said that androgyny does not exist would have a lot of points to make based on this thread.

Yet even Doc, who seems to say that they would actually like to transition FtM, says that they want to become a male bodied androgyne Seems interesting that the mind is still androgyne, but the body wants to change. Seems to be something in that to tease out on a train journey or walk.

Yes, the responses are really interesting. Speaking for myself, I believe I'd prefer living w/ a female body, or at least the body I have w/ female secondary characteristics. I'm unwilling to do hrt though, due to long term health risks and having to be tethered to the medical establishment for the rest of my life. So I make do and live w/ the body I have. The aging part sucks though, in my mid 30s I could pass more easily without hrt, now I'm losing my hair. Oh well, I'll have to wear a hat  ::)

Also, unlike TS folks who emphatically feel that they're their target gender, I know I'm not a man, however that doesn't automatically mean I'm a woman. I believe that many places in between exist. If I were to decide transition physically, I'd simply be a person who externally appeared to be a woman, w/ an altered male body and a deep voice, and I wouldn't deny my past. It is what it is.

Zythyra

One way to look at it is that we are the ones who really talk about gender identity, separate from sex: it seems that for a large number of us (myself included), the goal is not to have an androgyne sex but rather an androgyne gender, and quite a few have already got there. Looking at things this way, I don't really have any gender identity dysphoria at all, although I do have a moderate-to-severe body image dysphoria.

  Nfr

Quote from: Doc on August 20, 2007, 10:12:16 PM
But I also know that I'm driven to distraction and rage by my social-status as a woman. HRT would (probably) make me look like (and thus be treated as) well, the just the androgynous guy I feel myself to be. Some small, bookish-lookin' unmasculine guy. I'd like to wear some fruity girly-boy clothes and would do so if I were male, and don't now because they make me seem more female and I'm already more female than I can stand. But I suppose it's just possible that HRT would change my character and appearance to be more masculine than I want or feel now, and right now inside I feel exactly who I want to be. I just wish that little andro-guy wasn't buried in the externally-created woman-persona and so rendered a non-existant person. And HRT isn't a one-shot deal like a surgery, it's an ongoing life-long thing, needing hormone supplements is a handicap and I don't want a handicap I don't need to have. Add to that all these mentioned but ill-studied health risks that go with it -- potential need for hysterectomy, shortened life-span. Plus the risk that it would alienate the people I love most and destroy my marriage. All that cost, just for the sake of being socially 'read' as a weird, androgynous man rather than a weird androgynous woman? Logically, I can't fathom how that would be worth it. And yet it is soooo tempting.

Isn't it possible to do HRT for a time period.  After achieving some of the desired effects, you just quit.  I don't think your facial changes will reverse.

QuoteOne way to look at it is that we are the ones who really talk about gender identity, separate from sex: it seems that for a large number of us (myself included), the goal is not to have an androgyne sex but rather an androgyne gender, and quite a few have already got there. Looking at things this way, I don't really have any gender identity dysphoria at all, although I do have a moderate-to-severe body image dysphoria.

That's a great point Nfr. It does seem that many of us here don't have any problem with our identity, the question is more about how to express that outwardly, including whether to modify body to match our inner awareness. When I posted this poll, I was hesitant to use the term GID, but couldn't think of another way to write it so I left it as is.

Zythyra

Quote from: Rebis on August 21, 2007, 09:06:30 AM
Isn't it possible to do HRT for a time period.  After achieving some of the desired effects, you just quit.  I don't think your facial changes will reverse.

I'm pretty much certain that fat redistribution will reverse as soon as you get back on your natural hormones.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on August 21, 2007, 08:23:37 AM
One way to look at it is that we are the ones who really talk about gender identity, separate from sex: it seems that for a large number of us (myself included), the goal is not to have an androgyne sex but rather an androgyne gender, and quite a few have already got there. Looking at things this way, I don't really have any gender identity dysphoria at all, although I do have a moderate-to-severe body image dysphoria.

  Nfr

Thats actually how I always look at it. I have a certain sex, but gender is something appart from it, and when I talk about being an androgyne, I mean that I am both male and female genders. I try to get to the point where I feel right as an androgyne, which means allowing all aspects of my gender to show, both male and female, and it won't matter if I have HRT to the ability to achieve that. If I get HRT, it will only be as a enhancement to the recognition of that gender identity, but will be focused on how my physical body looks, so yes, a body image dysphoria seems more correct.

I am happy with my body except for my face at times I mean its cute but I look at photo shots at women newspaper columnists or business women and I feel like I should have a female face at times.  I really really want to grow out my hair and start wearing a female hairstyle ASAP so maybe getting a female hiarstyle may clear my mind off of having a female face. If I were to have female face yes I would want my voice to obviuosly to have a more female sound to it. I used to feel uncomfortable about my chest since I am male but it looks angryounous since I am flat chested and it my chest matches me as identifying as an angrogyne perfectly I think. I have no interest in changing my genitalia.

The lament of wonderment...

I realised that the chances I will ever see a GID-specialist/therapist are mere since Androgyny remains rather unidentified and I fear that a psychologist will attribute my present being to past misfortunes, and explain my behaviour, my feelings, to logical trails of recognition.

How is that for others?

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 21, 2007, 06:44:40 AM
Yet even Doc, who seems to say that they would actually like to transition FtM, says that they want to become a male bodied androgyne Seems interesting that the mind is still androgyne, but the body wants to change. Seems to be something in that to tease out on a train journey or walk.

Yeah, I puzzle and puzzle over this. It's, okay, yeah, I feel more male than female and am not all that keen on having a female body, though aside from the chest thing it doesn't really interest me much.  I don't feel totally male, and it seems to me that one great joy I would get out of a male body would be the ability to express a certain femininity without being forced into the classification of woman because of it. If I, as a female, wear a lacy frilly shirt and lounge about sipping tea out of cups with little feet, it comes off totally different than if I did the same thing as a male. The latter is transgendered behavior and the former isn't, and more importantly, the latter is 'me' and the former isn't. This distinction strikes me as absurd, but it's there. If it was 1740, when women were women and men were prissy peacocks with edged weapons, would I be a real FTM? Am I one now, and just being cowardly and indecisive about it? Who knows. If I were male-bodied, would I be annoyed for some equivalent reason, like the way wearing a mechanics overall and barking my knuckles on the engines of old volkswagens would be a cisgendered thing to do and thus, male bodied, I'd feel difficulty in expressing masculinity without falling into the role of 'man' with uncomfortable and inappropriate neatness?

Quote from: Doc on August 23, 2007, 01:10:22 PM
If it was 1740, when women were women and men were prissy peacocks with edged weapons, would I be a real FTM?

Really we all just want to be dandy highwaymen don't we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPgHbt0ODr4

Quote from: Doc on August 23, 2007, 01:10:22 PM
1740, when women were women and men were prissy peacocks with edged weapons

:D

Quote
If I were male-bodied, would I be annoyed for some equivalent reason, like the way wearing a mechanics overall and barking my knuckles on the engines of old volkswagens would be a cisgendered thing to do and thus, male bodied, I'd feel difficulty in expressing masculinity without falling into the role of 'man' with uncomfortable and inappropriate neatness?

Looking at it from the opposite direction, I expect you would. This is really at the core of my gender dysphoria: my sex has too much influence on how others perceive my gender. I suppose it's partly because the normal variation of male and female gender expressions overlap, and therefore in order to overrule the anatomical cues one would have to go just a bit overboard with gender expression. Unfortunately, that doesn't feel right either, so instead I've tried to convince myself that it doesn't matter how the rest of the world sees me. Sometimes I even succeed.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on August 24, 2007, 01:49:01 AM

Quote from: Doc on August 23, 2007, 01:10:22 PM
1740, when women were women and men were prissy peacocks with edged weapons

:D

Quote
If I were male-bodied, would I be annoyed for some equivalent reason, like the way wearing a mechanics overall and barking my knuckles on the engines of old volkswagens would be a cisgendered thing to do and thus, male bodied, I'd feel difficulty in expressing masculinity without falling into the role of 'man' with uncomfortable and inappropriate neatness?

Looking at it from the opposite direction, I expect you would. This is really at the core of my gender dysphoria: my sex has too much influence on how others perceive my gender. I suppose it's partly because the normal variation of male and female gender expressions overlap, and therefore in order to overrule the anatomical cues one would have to go just a bit overboard with gender expression. Unfortunately, that doesn't feel right either, so instead I've tried to convince myself that it doesn't matter how the rest of the world sees me. Sometimes I even succeed.

  Nfr

That does seem to be at the heart of the problem.  If one is male-bodied, anything slightly masculine is considered "normal Man behavior"...if one has a female body, the slightest femininity is also seen as "normal Woman behavior".  It is very difficult to express gender traits that match one's body, and not be perceived by those around you as being within the acceptable variance for that gender.  Heck, it is hard enough, with my male body to express something feminine without being perceived as a gay man, but anything masculine throws me smack into the man category.

Not sure how we can break this perception problem, but I'd love to find a way.

.......Laurry 

Quote from: Seshatneferw on August 24, 2007, 01:49:01 AM
Looking at it from the opposite direction, I expect you would. This is really at the core of my gender dysphoria: my sex has too much influence on how others perceive my gender.

Thanks. I feel like that. Until I had this horrible crash at the end of April, I was really clear about it. Now I'm muddled up, but finding your statement really helpful and comforting.

Quote
I suppose it's partly because the normal variation of male and female gender expressions overlap, and therefore in order to overrule the anatomical cues one would have to go just a bit overboard with gender expression. Unfortunately, that doesn't feel right either, so instead I've tried to convince myself that it doesn't matter how the rest of the world sees me. Sometimes I even succeed.

Quote from: LaurryIf one is male-bodied, anything slightly masculine is considered "normal Man behavior"...if one has a female body, the slightest femininity is also seen as "normal Woman behavior".  It is very difficult to express gender traits that match one's body, and not be perceived by those around you as being within the acceptable variance for that gender.  Heck, it is hard enough, with my male body to express something feminine without being perceived as a gay man, but anything masculine throws me smack into the man category.

It's not just the normal degree of variation in the overlap, it's that gender expression that matches your physical sex gets awarded more points. If a female tends a flower-garden, she's behaving in a feminine way. If a male does the same thing, his behavior is not feminine, it's neutral. Now I'm imagining a board game where you go along trying to collect or get rid of various Mannerism, Profession, Personal Inclination, and Clothing cards that say stuff like 'Enjoys watching football, add +1 masculinity if male bodied, +0 if female-bodied' and 'Lots of delicate jewelry, add +2 femininity if female-bodied, +1 if male-bodied' with the goal being to collect a combonation of cards that let you balance while still having a profession, character, interests and a wardrobe. If your cards actually balanced perfectly, you'd still have +1 masculinity for being male-bodied, so to be socially percieved as perfectly androgynous (you win!) you'd have to have more feminine cards than masculine ones. If you collected only neutral cards you'd be in the same boat.

Voted! Interesting thread. Can't wait to see what some folks have to say about it a few years later. :]

I voted for "changes, sometimes intense, sometimes not"

I thought it was the best fit for my answer.  To go into more detail, I generally never have any body dysphoria but I almost always have social dysphoria.  If I was living in a world where you were allowed to do/wear/say/like anything regardless of your gender and not be judged for it, I would be happy as a girl in a man's body.  I would also consider HRT, not for the body changes but to reduce the effects of testosterone on my mind.

I get that.
Consider a little Spiro. Does wonders for some. Quiets the noise.
If it wasn't for the low dose I take, I'd be much more cranky than I am.
The low dose estradiol patch makes things 'smooth'. I have no other way to describe that.
Might be worth it to try. If it's not right, you'll most likely know within a few days.
It's been way over a year, and a little soreness in my breasts, a little more fat there and on my hips.
Not enough that it's noticeable. Lot less body hair, but it's still there (Still Gross), and facial hair growth is very slow.
Ativan

I'm afraid to say that if I lived in a world were there was no source of social dysphoria, I think I would want surgery even more. It's like... It would be a taste of how good things COULD be? And I'd want more.

mm... if i could be anything, without people caring to be for or against or whatever, i would probably want to be everything.
ever since i was a child, i've wanted to live for a thousand years at least, just so i can get to read all those books that i want to read. would also be interesting to learn all the different languages in this world. one lifetime just isn't enough. and reincarnation wouldn't help even if it is/was real, because it doesn't allow memories to pass into the next life.

i'll keep looking to see whether or how i can get what medical treatment that could make me more of myself or less of what i'm not. can't be sure what it really is.