Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I thought I might share this since I found it to be interesting.

https://www.ted.com/talks/norman_spack_how_i_help_transgender_teens_become_who_they_want_to_be#t-998305

I seriously started crying while watching this...

I hate my mom

I'm so happy for the kids who do get this treatment before they have to endure going through the wrong puberty.

With that said... man, it makes me feel like crap. :(

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 07, 2014, 03:07:45 AM
I'm so happy for the kids who do get this treatment before they have to endure going through the wrong puberty.

With that said... man, it makes me feel like crap. :(

I know exactly what you mean. Yay... but  also wah at the same time.

Does make me wonder though - this is the first generation where treatment at an early age is possible if parents and professionals are with the program. Given that not all young people will get that help it will lead to a very interesting dynamic in future trans communities; will those that transitioned as a child have a very different outlook to those transitioning later in life.

This already develops. I felt that already when I transitioned at 23 and most of the  others in the support groups at that time in the late 1990ies were 40+. There was a discrepancy in how life was experienced. And now I see this even more. Still, the 30+ or 40+ seem to be the majority but now they not only compare themselves with the 20+ but with the 10+ generation and the 20+ also compare to the 10+. I have read now lots of posts on Facebook and elsewhere of people in their 30ies saying that they have missted the train, that they give um transitioning or dont even dare to start because they have gotten too old and that one only has a chance if one starts in the early 20ies or some say even that is not helping,  it has to be in puberty or never. I find this at time pretty self-destructive. The top side is though, that in these times now there are big advances in FFS and VFS and other surgeries, that allow at any age an improved adaptation of the body. These options did not existed when I transitioned.
I see however already a split. in my city, there are now 3 trans groups. trans men, adult trans women, and a third one for young trans folks from age 14 on. I think the young ones worries and issues are very differenet, just as mine at age 23 were different by far from those at age 40+ in the group back then.

It's taken a long time, but I've come to terms with transitioning late. My life wouldn't necessarily have been better if I'd been born 40 years later and transitioned as a teenager. There are some problems, of course, that would have been avoided (years of electrolysis, e.g.), but I've also had experiences, some good, some bad, that I wouldn't have had, and that made me the person I am today.

I'm sad that I'll never know what it's like to be a young woman, but I'm chalking that up to the dozens of other things I'll never know, some good, some bad.

Quote from: anjaq on December 07, 2014, 04:53:54 AM
This already develops. I felt that already when I transitioned at 23 and most of the  others in the support groups at that time in the late 1990ies were 40+. There was a discrepancy in how life was experienced. And now I see this even more. Still, the 30+ or 40+ seem to be the majority but now they not only compare themselves with the 20+ but with the 10+ generation and the 20+ also compare to the 10+. I have read now lots of posts on Facebook and elsewhere of people in their 30ies saying that they have missted the train, that they give um transitioning or dont even dare to start because they have gotten too old and that one only has a chance if one starts in the early 20ies or some say even that is not helping,  it has to be in puberty or never. I find this at time pretty self-destructive. The top side is though, that in these times now there are big advances in FFS and VFS and other surgeries, that allow at any age an improved adaptation of the body. These options did not existed when I transitioned.

It always amazes me how someone only 25 y/o or even younger can feel they totally missed the boat. But, I haven't much of a clue what it is like to be a kid growing up today. I know for myself as a kid my life was nearly a total hell since I was different than most of my peers in many ways. Ways having nothing at all to do with being trans on top of all that. Seems like for today's youth the intense peer pressure, the absolute need to conform to the mob, or die in shame, is the rule of the day. Unless, of course, you happen to be one of "The Cool" outsider non-conformist groups, which ironically makes you an insider.

Quote from: Ms Grace on December 07, 2014, 03:18:33 AM
Does make me wonder though - this is the first generation where treatment at an early age is possible if parents and professionals are with the program. Given that not all young people will get that help it will lead to a very interesting dynamic in future trans communities; will those that transitioned as a child have a very different outlook to those transitioning later in life.

I've already noticed a big split...

We've had a few trans teens at our support group, and for the most part they have a really hard time connecting with the older transitioners. They're more or less kids who were so gender-nonconforming that they've rarely questioned what they were, and transitioning is pretty much it for them... they'll come to group to get information on hormones or to look to make friends, but when they find that the experiences of others differ from theirs so much, (not to mention the fact that older transitioners are more or less CONSTANTLY talking to them about how lucky they are, which gets creepy,) they usually don't stick around. Once they've been on hormones long enough, they leave and generally just go on living life as if nothing happened. This attitude seems to be pervasive amongst people who transition as teens or college students. They usually COMPLETELY can't connect at all with the older transitioners' narratives involving crossdressing or sexual urges being involved, and being their identity gender is more or less innate to them, so there's nothing else they need to talk about.

And honestly, not a lot of young-adult 25-35 transitioners stick around long-term either. We tend to be more quiet and nerdy and introverted, and tend to not have an established family or professional life like older transitioners usually do, so going out with a bunch of people wearing stereotypically-feminine attire, talking about whether their kids and their jobs are accepting them, and enjoying asserting their gender in more stereotypically-feminine ways to make up for 30+ lost years really tends to not be our thing. Our experiences with dysphoria are much more similar to older transitioners' than trans kids' are, but there still seems to be a BIG generational gap there in terms of how we view the importance of gender. The attitude that gender defines EVERYTHING about your life and behavior and dress is way more common amongst the older crowd. And I'm at the point where I'm rolling my eyes every time I go to our local trans group and the same people are still wearing dresses, heels, and makeup to every single meeting, and still constantly talking about validating experiences that "prove" that they're female (despite the fact that they've been post-transition for 2+ years.) And I'm just thinking to myself "yes... you're a woman... we get it... sheesh." And most of my friends say that's the same reason why they left. We still meet on the side in our own little nerdy trans social group full of other 25-35-aged trans people, but we don't really talk about being male/female at all. We tend to do things like watch Eurovision or Game of Thrones, and spend all night talking about video games, movies, and constantly poking fun at each-other... discussions where honestly gender is just incidental, it could easily be happening amongst a group of men or women. There's a definite generational gap there, where younger people view gender as being much more trivial and incidental than the older crowd.

One of the reasons I started now is because if I started over 40 or 50 I feared I would never get a good result for it to be "worth it." That said transitioning as a teen may have been better but it is what it is. Not letting that stop me.

Carrie Liz - about what you'd expect with the younger ones... Can't blame them "getting it fixed up" and then moving back into normal life  :-\

But do you know what... Good! Because that's how it should be... It's also probable that it's less likely that they would become marginalized by society because of their more feminine appearance than us oldies, and like me, some very much older oldies transitioning after decades of Testesterone flowing through us... It's a shame but thats progress...

Those that have endured and led over the years have left a wonderful legacy for today's transitioners regardless of age, but the younger generations will be the biggest benefitter's of that legacy.
Do I feel dissapponted in both myself for putting it off and that today's support was not there when I was a kid or in my teens or early adulthood... Hell yeah... But that's life  :'(

L Katy

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 07, 2014, 01:13:44 PM
Once they've been on hormones long enough, they leave and generally just go on living life as if nothing happened. This attitude seems to be pervasive amongst people who transition as teens or college students. They usually COMPLETELY can't connect at all with the older transitioners' narratives involving crossdressing or sexual urges being involved, and being their identity gender is more or less innate to them, so there's nothing else they need to talk about.

This is me basically and how I've felt since I joined this site. I love this place but its been difficult relating to a lot of people here. I find it tough to share my experiences. I remember there was a member not too long ago that I found I could finally relate with but they ended up being closing their account. 

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 07, 2014, 01:13:44 PM
Once they've been on hormones long enough, they leave and generally just go on living life as if nothing happened. This attitude seems to be pervasive amongst people who transition as teens or college students. They usually COMPLETELY can't connect at all with the older transitioners' narratives involving crossdressing or sexual urges being involved, and being their identity gender is more or less innate to them, so there's nothing else they need to talk about.

Me & a fellow 18 year old were talking about this. We don't exactly feel like we can connect with a lot of the older women because we haven't been though everything you guys have. We never got married or had kids or any of that so finding anything relatable is somewhat difficult. Personally, I don't really feel like anything above 14 is even considered "young transitioning" except only in comparison to the older group. If a child starts hormone blockers & estrogen by 14 & below, their chances are still a lot better than someone's who started at 15 or 16. Kind of sucks how much Testosterone can damage a person beyond repair. I hate it so much

One of the things I find kind of odd about the video is that they used that gorgeous transwoman as an example to showcase the benefits of seeking out medical help for transition at the onset of puberty but yet she was so tall. Before saying how tall she was, he says "They grew to normal heights & looked normal", but it's still somewhat out of the ordinary & above the norm to find a girl who's 5'11". Just thought that was a little weird of an example to say before hand. I might just be letting it get to me though because my sister who's 5'1" just told me she thought I was 6 foot. Makes me sad cause had I been born a biological girl & gotten help I would've been tiny too :(

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on December 07, 2014, 04:12:45 PM
This is me basically and how I've felt since I joined this site. I love this place but its been difficult relating to a lot of people here. I find it tough to share my experiences. I remember there was a member not too long ago that I found I could finally relate with but they ended up being closing their account.

Agreed :/. I like the forum but with all honesty I can see myself getting online less and less in the future >_<.

Watched the video at last.... hope his message gets out to all those bigots out there

Thanks Jasellebelle

L Katy

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 07, 2014, 01:13:44 PM
they'll come to group to get information on hormones or to look to make friends, but when they find that the experiences of others differ from theirs so much, (not to mention the fact that older transitioners are more or less CONSTANTLY talking to them about how lucky they are, which gets creepy,) they usually don't stick around. Once they've been on hormones long enough, they leave and generally just go on living life as if nothing happened. This attitude seems to be pervasive amongst people who transition as teens or college students. They usually COMPLETELY can't connect at all with the older transitioners' narratives

*blush* - I must admit, I was a bit like that. I was massively annoyed by those "creepy" comments in addition to being told I should dress in skirts and use more makeup if I told them I had situations where I did not "pass". This was such a turnoff - I felt misunderstood and disconnected. We were luckily about 3-4 twens in the group, so we had each other, but there was a gap to the older ones. I went there mainly to find information on treatments and legal advice and to meet people to talk about the whole issue and maybe also find some people giving me some courage on bad days. Some of that worked, so I am grateful for that, but eventually I also left rather sooner than later.

Quote from: TSJasmine on December 07, 2014, 06:01:33 PM
We never got married or had kids or any of that so finding anything relatable is somewhat difficult. Personally, I don't really feel like anything above 14 is even considered "young transitioning" except only in comparison to the older group.

Yes to that. I think there are 3 groups at least. Teens, getting hormones before puberty really did its biggest damage - early twens who have suffered the physical damage but have not grown up into a situation that was strongly gendered - and then the older ones who have experienced things like a job career, marriage, kids. And those three groups can overlap (need for info on hormones and GRS for example) bit but are largely having different topics (how to deal with jobs, marriage, kids, teachers, fellow students for example)

QuoteIf a child starts hormone blockers & estrogen by 14 & below, their chances are still a lot better than someone's who started at 15 or 16. Kind of sucks how much Testosterone can damage a person beyond repair. I hate it so much

Yes, - so sad :'(
Still, with 16 it still is better than with 24. But between 13 and 24, every year counts.

QuoteBefore saying how tall she was, he says "They grew to normal heights & looked normal", but it's still somewhat out of the ordinary & above the norm to find a girl who's 5'11". Just thought that was a little weird of an example to say before hand.

Yes, I found that weird, too!

WARNING: RANT
Ok. So what you guys are kinda saying is that I should get my butt in gear. I go 14 in 15 days. Haven't come out. Only started questioning about, hmm, 3 or so weeks ago. Probably should see a therapist, but I can't wthout coming out. Also, we've lost 6 people this year, and that makes it sorta a bad idea to come out, but I don't wanna wait. Even then, I have my coming out planned. If a song by The Cure comes on I'll say "I heard that their guitarist is transgender" and hopefully they'll ask where I found that out, and as I heard it here, I'd refer to here, and say that I'm on here because I'm trans and wanted advice. Is that a good idea? Sorry for the rant though.
Thanks. Currently male, currently Michael, but if I come out, the name I've chosen is Natalie, so if you would, refer to me as that. Thanks again

If I am honest, I am glad I begun my transition at the age of 32, no matter how tempting transitioning earlier might be. It might sound strange to advertise such standpoint, but my transition was not only a transformation of the body, it also transformed my mind. When you are trans, you learn so much more than the average cis-person. For one, being trans is a masterclass in humility, patience and compassion. I don't think I would know and experience these virtues when I was completely transformed before puberty. Maybe my transition was the vehicle to become a better person, as well as rectifying that birth defect.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on December 07, 2014, 01:13:44 PM
I've already noticed a big split...

We've had a few trans teens at our support group, and for the most part they have a really hard time connecting with the older transitioners. They're more or less kids who were so gender-nonconforming that they've rarely questioned what they were, and transitioning is pretty much it for them... they'll come to group to get information on hormones or to look to make friends, but when they find that the experiences of others differ from theirs so much, (not to mention the fact that older transitioners are more or less CONSTANTLY talking to them about how lucky they are, which gets creepy,) they usually don't stick around. Once they've been on hormones long enough, they leave and generally just go on living life as if nothing happened. This attitude seems to be pervasive amongst people who transition as teens or college students. They usually COMPLETELY can't connect at all with the older transitioners' narratives involving crossdressing or sexual urges being involved, and being their identity gender is more or less innate to them, so there's nothing else they need to talk about.

Most cis-woman can't relate to cis-teenage girls. Most teenage cis-girls don't discuss sexual urges of old cis-woman. They COMPLETELY cannot connect with the older cis-woman. So I can't see how this suddenly relates to being trans*? and what is so innate about them, unless it is some shady attempt to "Being more TTT" and I'm not trans anymore and leave the community and my sisters to fend for themselves. Sorry to say, but those who transitioned early (I know two), were my best friends when I transitioned. They did not hide, they even went public from a couple of years of stealth, to help our sisters. Feel free to correct me. :)

I dont think it has to do with necessarily going stealth forever, but really - I think there are many things in life that teach us humility and patience and all other kinds of things - I dont think I needed this one specifically. Of course the same is true for (other) disabilities or therelike - it is something that makes normal life a challenge and of course this always makes a life special and maybe more special than for a person who gets everything without having any issues. If it happened, yes ok, then this is a gain that can be found in it - I know some people who are handicapped and say that even though they really wish it did not happen, in some way they are glad for the things that happened because of it.
So I guess I can say the same - I wish this had not happened to me - or I wish I transitioned even earlier - it makes me sad that I managed to do so only at age 24 and others later, but I also am in a different way grateful for the things that happened to me because of it - they may have happened to me in a different way for any other reason, so I dont connect the two parts by necessity and I am not glad for being trans itself, just for some of the things that it may have taught me. What I cannot relate to but that I heard of many is that one supposedly knows life in both genders - I can hardly say that and earlier transitiones probably cannot say that at all. Maybe it is something positive about being trans specifically, I dont know.

And yes of course - there is always a age gap - cis or trans - because life experiences and life realities are different - and this is evident here I think as well. Sometimes people see the status of being afflicted with transsexuality as something unifying , as if that makes those people somehow a group that has a special bond - in some ways it does, but in many ways it does not.

well I started transitioning around 17, started hrt at 18 and I just turned nineteen and although some would say im a really early transitioner and stuff I still find myself a little jealous of these 12 year old on hormones who never have to worry about there voice, spending all there allowance on electrolysis, or trying desperately to get a job to pay for ffs or breast implants... I happen to know a couple mtfs that are 14, 16, and 19. the 19 and 14 year old are both completely pre transition and im trying my best to convince them to start hrt asap but all I get from them is excuses...  both there parents are supportive too...guess you can only help those who want help

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on December 07, 2014, 04:12:45 PM
This is me basically and how I've felt since I joined this site. I love this place but its been difficult relating to a lot of people here. I find it tough to share my experiences. I remember there was a member not too long ago that I found I could finally relate with but they ended up being closing their account. 

This is how I feel as well, and I'm 35.
I can relate to teens, better than my own age group.  Plus, I never had a male puberty, much less married a female or had kids.
I try to give input when I can, but I hardy post anymore.

Quote from: Annabolton on December 08, 2014, 10:13:21 AM
the 19 and 14 year old are both completely pre transition and im trying my best to convince them to start hrt asap but all I get from them is excuses...  both there parents are supportive too...guess you can only help those who want help

Wow - I would have jhumped at any chance to get hormones if I could. LOL - I was even stupid enough to steal some premarins from my mom when I was in that age, but she noticed and wondered and so I never did again...

Quote from: PinkCloud on December 08, 2014, 08:01:47 AM
Most cis-woman can't relate to cis-teenage girls. Most teenage cis-girls don't discuss sexual urges of old cis-woman. They COMPLETELY cannot connect with the older cis-woman. So I can't see how this suddenly relates to being trans*? and what is so innate about them, unless it is some shady attempt to "Being more TTT" and I'm not trans anymore and leave the community and my sisters to fend for themselves. Sorry to say, but those who transitioned early (I know two), were my best friends when I transitioned. They did not hide, they even went public from a couple of years of stealth, to help our sisters. Feel free to correct me. :)

No, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being trans. Generally in the Cleveland trans group I go to, the older transitioners like talking about their kids, their professional life, other people they've met, trying to implore wisdom on the younger set, and other "adult" stuff. Most of the 25-35ish transisitioners are very much among the hipster generation, and thus like talking about video games, movies, nutrition and diets because we're all starting to get fat :P, Lord of the Rings, Transformers, the struggles of trying to get our professional lives on track, and our various ideas and artistic ventures. Young adult stuff. And the trans kids are still talking about high school stuff like school, parties, music, friends, dating, what they're doing on vacation, etc.

I do notice a difference, though, in terms of how each group reports that they experienced dysphoria, and specifically what experiences they tend to focus on and talk about, and what they personally believe defines their gender. But yes, there is definitely a lot more to it than that. And honestly even those different focuses might just be the result of a generational gap, or even just because we've all had to endure different durations of society trying to hammer our birth gender into our heads, so therefore we feel differing amounts of a need to somehow prove our gender.

I think the experience of dysphoria very much might be exactly the same regardless of age. But think of the possible impact of our evolving culture... The pressure to conform to a rigid gender binary due to the culture might have made older transitioners more likely to be forced to do things in secret, hence the common "secret crossdressing" narrative and the narratives about having to act stereotypically-masculine pre-transition. I grew up as a child of 60s parents, and in a much more lenient school environment where gender-nonconformity, namely it being totally okay for girls to be athletes, policemen, firemen, and the like, was celebrated by the school, so for me I didn't face the same harsh completely-gender-segregating oppression that older trans people faced, so the defining aspects of my dysphoria were not "secret" things, but rather "open" things, namely being teased by others for my effeminate behavior, and the bodily dysphoria that came along with puberty. This seems to be a more common experience among the 25-35 set. And trans kids today are growing up in a generation where the things you like are even less defined by gender, and now it's even becoming normal for boys to do feminine things, so I think that has a lot to do with it too.

I REALLY hope nobody took my prior post as a "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" post... that was NOT the intent. I wasn't somehow implying that trans kids are "more trans" because their gender seems more incidental to them. It very well might just be because they haven't had to deal with having their gender invalidated as harshly or as long by society as older transitioners have had to put up with.

Smartly put, Carrie.  I observe similar things just on this site.  I think I agree that the dysphoria may be the same, but life experiences alter narratives and they we may look at things, even the semantics differ between age groups, which leads to a lot of unnecessary arguments here sometimes.

I am not sure it is just the social context that determines transition age and narrative, but it may play a role. For me it was part-part. My mom but also my dad were allowing for nongendered behaviour in terms of interests, so that was indeed less of a topic for me. But it still was there due to the pressures in school. My main focus was however on my deep desire for the right body. Funny thing is that I was 23 when I transitioned but that was in the late 1990ies - I know some people who now transition in their 40ies, so basically are my age, but for them the situation 15 years ago was different somehow - who knows what it was - maybe more opressive parents? But certainly the late 1990ies were already allowing some queerness and growing up in the 1980ies certainly allowed some liberation of classic gender stereotypes. So I guess situations strongly depend on individual situations but certainly there is more information available sooner in life, there are more liberal positions. But there still are a lot who do the 110% male thing before transitioning even now and there are still a lot of people who mainly have issues with gender roles and others who have mainly issues with the body and these perspectives are resulting in different ways to deal with all of this. I think it just is a fact that transsexuality is not at all homogenous - it is a pool for various people who all DO similar things - transitioning, hormones, name change,... - but for different major reasons.