Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi,  I just wanted to check in after leaving the board some months ago, and let anyone know I'm booked at Yeson for surgery on 1/19.  I am traveling alone and haven't booked a hotel yet, I'm trying to decide between cost and convenience / walking distance. 

Dr. Kim says I will need a Botox injection due to vocal fold tremors.  Other than that, I guess I'm alright as a candidate.  I'm keeping my expectations low, but hope this will help round out my voice and get rid of those resonant lows that make it such a pain to talk in bathrooms or high-ceilinged rooms.

My old username was Ducks if you didn't get my punny new name :)

Anyone else going to be there around this time?

Good news :)  I was there 28 days ago - really good experience - and I can honestly say I love Seoul to bits now - the tube can just get a wee bit cramped at times lol.  As far as the hotel goes, I stayed in Gangnam, but everywhere is near a subway station, so getting around is fine - the ticket machines have an English option, so easy to use.  I had an app called subway Korea that was free - easy to use and told you where to change etc.  Apart from the Op time, have fun out there :)

Thanks, Kim!  BTW, are you the person who wrote the app that talks for you?   That would be cool to have if it spoke Korean.

in 2 weeks I will have my feet on South Korean soil!  I am so psyched to get there that I've been re-reading Jennygirl's thread over from the beginning.  Wow, so much great info and inspiring results there, it is stunning!  (and I'm not even half-way caught up on the thread) 

If garage band's piano keyboard is correct, my range is D1 to C4 maybe D4, but my break is in that general area and I can't positively say I get to D4 without slipping into false.   It took a few trips through the vocal exercises to get my bottom end to show up at all. I had maybe an octave in my habitual speaking range and haven't tried to sing much over the past 20 years.  That's probably why my voice is so breathy in the 'ahs' below

Here's my audition for Dr. Kim to decide if I was a candidate or not.   Obviously my voice will really benefit from his magic!  http://vocaroo.com/i/s0CWAjjud1Vs

Your voice sounds not clearly male to me, so tha tis good already. But of course increasing pitch will help :) - I can hear the "vocal tremor" , I believe , in the A sounds. Its that issue to not be alte to hold a note precisely. I think your vocal range description may be wrong. I think a D1 is too low even for a very bassy voice which I cannot hear from the voice recording. The upper end seems also too low, the break usually is above 300Hz, I think and your real vocal range of course goes beyond that in the head voice. Almost everyone said that the break becomes less intense or even almost goes away with VFS, so I would also record that part ;)

I will be a month after you, February 23-March 5 - I still wonder if anyone else will be there at that time.

Oh and I think I should read the long thread in parts again too, mostly for the tipps about shopping, sightseeing and food :P

Anjaq, thanks for your thoughts!  I thought D1 was way too low, but went with the label on the app.  In my head voice I get another octave on top.  Of course, I'll have a better idea after Dr. Kim does his exam and post some stuff  on that if I can.

I am probably not going to be much help on the shopping and sight seeing stuff, I intend to hunker down and read some books that I haven't made time for in real life, and do some meditation and gentle yoga.  I haven't been able to really chill for a long time and look forward to having some time to myself. 

Also, thanks for the vote of confidence on the speaking voice, I agree, even a moderate raise in pitch would help a lot.

Quick question for you (or anyone who's been there) - do you intend to do any practice / exercise before going over?  I'm contemplating starting the vocal exercises now, as I can't even do the lip trill thing without flubbing it a few times first.   Thoughts?

Well - I will also take some reading with me and a friend, so it certainly will not be boring. I dont know your app - I use praat and it gives me the same results as the examinations at the ENT I go to, so it seems to work fine. D1 would be below the buzz from AC current ;)

I have been doing vocal exercises with a voice rehab person for the past year and will continue to do them until the week before the flight and then start again once the resting period is over, plus of course the more daily exercises from Yeson. Right now I only do the vocal exercises at the rehab every week and then sometimes if I think about it I will do lip trills and such.

Quote from: anjaq on January 03, 2015, 04:15:49 PM
Well - I will also take some reading with me and a friend, so it certainly will not be boring. I dont know your app - I use praat and it gives me the same results as the examinations at the ENT I go to, so it seems to work fine. D1 would be below the buzz from AC current ;)

I have been doing vocal exercises with a voice rehab person for the past year and will continue to do them until the week before the flight and then start again once the resting period is over, plus of course the more daily exercises from Yeson. Right now I only do the vocal exercises at the rehab every week and then sometimes if I think about it I will do lip trills and such.

LOL, yeah D1 for sure is wrong.  The app is just the built in fake piano keyboard that comes with my iPhone - it doesn't do any analysis.  It doesn't show the whole 88 keys so when you want to go lower you have to page down to that range, and it puts a label on the octave, like C1, C2, ...  I forgot you did exercises already, so for you no decision, just carry on.  I'll probably just keep practicing the ones I can't do well so I don't embarrass myself too badly.

Cool. Keep us apprised of your progress.

Proper exercises can never be wrong - except in those 2 or 3 months post op in which Dr Kim tells you to not use them.

My fundamental frequency was 135 hz Dr. Kim says about 209 hz should be possible but perhaps more with training.  I have a tremor and my cords don't close properly which causes me to use a lot more air and to strain a lot to get sound out.  Botox for me then finding a speech therapist after 2 months seem to be the keys.

Killing time until Monday morning surgery.  My body is still on pacific time.

Aww - good luck then. I am not even sure anymore what my fundamental frequency is. If I talk nowadays it is more like 130, but if I talk monotonously it is 110, if I talk with more melody it is 160 or 170 even. I have no idea what number to take. I will have to let them surprise me.
The lady at the bank counter was again telling me that she would not have thought anything to be wrong with my voice when I told her where to wire the money and why. I keep wondering why that is, given that I clearly have a low pitch. Apparently people really often dont give as much on pitch as we think they do.

pitch is def only one piece of the puzzle, im sure you'll do great!  one sleep left for me, no food after 8pm, considering pizza 4 lunch :)

Hehe - yeah - stack up on the food while you can ;) - Thumbs pressed for tomorrow. :D - I am sure it will all be great for you. But it soooo long until one can hear the results - patience, patience... ;)

Jessie told me my Fo is at 133Hz. With 74Hz average increase in pitch I'll be pretty happy. I'll be contacting them soon to book as I want to get this done in June (school is out so we won't miss school or find a babysitter).

surgery is complete and except for a persistent headache, recovery was not too hard at all!   I've got my follow up on Friday then fly home, I'm excited to see my own bed.  its hard not speaking, I never realized how much I 'mutter' to myself :)

Headache, I assume that's the anesthesia wearing off?

ImagineKate, yeah I think you're right, could also be lack of caffeine after a long day.  It finally let go after lunch. 

Ah thats not too bad. One day headache - After my last surgery I was pretty tired for some days.
So - you already wish you were home again? No drive to see Seoul?

Anyways - Congrats on the surgery :) - will they botox you on friday? - That is not even the full week - are they sending you home early?

I'm  not much for sightseeing right now, I cant talk or understand the language so the timing is off.  maybe if I wasn't alone.  I thought I was doing pretty well so I took the stairs 6 floors, and was gasping by the time I made it to the top.  The surgery took a bit more out of me than I thought.  :)

yes, botox tomorrow,  surgery on a Monday messes up the timeline some, I had my first check then a weekend off before surgery, I walked around Seoul a bit then.  When I pointed out the botox was only 5 days after surgery, Dr. Kim said it was OK.

Oh - yes - I had a short surgery rather recently and I was not really up to much for some days after that :( - I was hoping it would be less drastic in Seoul since everyone up to now seems to have had a great time seeing stuff in Seoul. Well so at least your trip is rather short - just one week total.

it will end up being10 days, 9 nights in the hotel.  Having surgery on Monday shifted 2 recovery days before the surgery.  Apparently nothing happens on the weekend. 

all buttoned up and ready to fly home tomorrow!  The Botox shot was nothing to worry about, a small sting on each side of the larynx and out the door.  the voice program was very comprehensive with breathing lessons, neck muscle stretches, plus resonance control and range building vocal drills for after 2 months.  I left with all my medical records and videos from testing plus a pile of pills for after the Botox wears off.

jesse is awesome as is DR. Kim and the whole staff, everyone treated me with the greatest respect and concern.  I am so glad I made the trip, I cant wait to get to work on my new voice!

Did you get to hear your voice a bit at least?

not at all.  another few days until I can day a word or 2, but they said it would really be at least 2 months before it would start to change

Quote from: ReDucks on January 23, 2015, 04:54:59 AM
all buttoned up and ready to fly home tomorrow!  The Botox shot was nothing to worry about, a small sting on each side of the larynx and out the door.  the voice program was very comprehensive with breathing lessons, neck muscle stretches, plus resonance control and range building vocal drills for after 2 months.  I left with all my medical records and videos from testing plus a pile of pills for after the Botox wears off.

jesse is awesome as is DR. Kim and the whole staff, everyone treated me with the greatest respect and concern.  I am so glad I made the trip, I cant wait to get to work on my new voice!

Glad this all worked out great for you! :) It looks like they've improved the voice program since I went. It used to be just a sheet of paper and a five minute chat. Do you have a list of the exercises you're supposed to do?

Sounds great. Which muscle do they botox anyways? My voice therapist asked me this, she wants to know which muscles will be affected...

Be careful with the medication they give you for after the Botox - some people had pretty weird side effects up to getting pretty severly depressed, I heard. Check out what it is they give you and be prepared ;)

Charlotte, it's up to 3 pages and 30 minutes practice / demonstration.  one part is abdominal breathing one part laryngeal and muscle massage and the 3rd part are the voice exercises, warm up, stretching/contracting, power and cool down.  these are the same basic exercises from their web page, lip trills, "m", and ng - ah.  http://www.yesonvc.net/disease/voiceMovie6.asp


Anjaq, clonazepam is the med.  has anyone actually reported problems or has it been more about quoting the possible side effects that are out there?  I haven't seen any 1st hand experiences, myself.

People in the Yeson Facebook group have reported mixed effects of the medication. Some were mild, like being tired or forgetting little things, others had severe effects like depression or foggyness in the brain, I think some even had suicidal thoughts - so this stuff has to be taken with great care and one has to seriously fade it out after taking it, the withdrawal seems to be really tough if it is stopped abruptly.

wow, I didn't even know there was a FB page.  I'll be careful if it comes to that.

Quote from: anjaq on January 23, 2015, 05:53:05 PM
People in the Yeson Facebook group have reported mixed effects of the medication. Some were mild, like being tired or forgetting little things, others had severe effects like depression or foggyness in the brain, I think some even had suicidal thoughts - so this stuff has to be taken with great care and one has to seriously fade it out after taking it, the withdrawal seems to be really tough if it is stopped abruptly.

Someone who was taking this for psych conditions (note: much higher dosage than what Yeson gives) blacked out in my car once while on this stuff... it was really awkward, and difficult getting them to wake. I'd be hesitant to take it at all - only if desperate, probably.

It seems to me like it might just be better to re-botox with a local voice doctor than take this stuff?

I will ask Dr Kim if there are alternatives - other medication in case this one has too severe side effects in me - or the option to get it botoxed again if that is needed - I know two adresses who have experience in doing that on the voice (treatment of vocal spasms) - if I get the names of the muscles and the dosages needed. Not that I am too keen on having another 3 months restricted voice, but if it benefits the overall result...

Back home, still on Seoul time.  Travel was totally a breeze, flew through customs and haven't had any major slips using my voice though the dog got me to squeak when he greeted me at the car outside the airport!  Today is the last day of the 7-days of meds I got from Yeson, meaning tomorrow I can say a word or two.  I'm kind of looking forward to hearing my voice.  From what I heard with the dog, it's higher and kind of weak sounding, but I'm sure it will get stronger with use and more time healing.

I've been doing the massage and stretching daily, it helps a lot to get the tension out of my neck and shoulders, not sure how it will help healing or my voice, but I'm drinkin' the kool-aide :)

regarding the drugs they give, I'm only going to say we are all different so YMMV with regard to side effects.  I am not prone to depression or anything so I will probably just take them and if they are not good for me, I'll stop.

All I know about the Botox was that the needle was tiny and Dr. Kim shot me on both front corners of the larynx, he did it without looking down my throat and it only took a few seconds to do both shots.  I honestly can't feel anything different about my neck from before the shot. 

Oh - only 7 days rest period and you can already try your voice? Thats fast. Most others had 14 days until saying a word or two and then another 2 weeks until saying a few sentences, right?

my instructions say 7 days 1-2 words a day max, Dr. Kim said 'emergency only', then 3 weeks later I can start short conversations.  At 2 months I start the exercises and speech pathologist (if I can find one) to work on resonance training and such, since my old methods of feminizing my voice won't work anymore (or will sound weird - J-Mi mentioned that too in her latest video).  At 3-4 months the Botox wears off and I start the pills which last for another 4 months.  After that I guess it will depend on how the tremor is going.

According to Dr. Kim, I will start out with a very similar sounding voice, then at some point between 2 and 6 months it will start to rise to my final pitch.  J-Mi with her extensive vocal training was pretty fast at achieving that pitch, but due to my age and long habit of habituating my pitch, he expects it will take me longer to get my voice under control.

edit: I didn't quite get it clear in my head if the Botox added another 7 days to the schedule of first talking, or not.  I'm checking on that.

Quote from: ReDucks on January 26, 2015, 04:36:32 PM
my old methods of feminizing my voice won't work anymore

Really - oh .... - Why did I actually work on improving that now again for the past half year? I was hoping to get a bit of an advantage out of this after VFS and not start out at zero again with a weird voice. Why would changing resonance not work any more after VFS?

Quote from: anjaq on January 27, 2015, 11:59:13 AM
Really - oh sh... - Why did I actually work on improfing that now again for the past half year? I was hoping to get a bit of an advantage out of this after VFS and not start out at zero again with a weird voice. Why would changing resonance not work any more after VFS?

J-Mi kind of showed it in her last video, using her old method of feminization pushed her voice too high and thin, making it sound unnatural. 

For me, I have habituated a combination of constricting my larynx up under my chin and opening my vocal folds a bit to take the resonant qualities down a few notches and as a result, my chords don't even close for half their length unless I 'belt it out'.  This serves to get the echo out of my voice in the bathroom and raise my voice from chest to throat, but requires 7x more air to talk than I should need. 

Now that my chords are shortened, I need to learn to speak with my full voice again, and use the exercises to learn to move the resonance from my throat to my head.  The 'm' exercise is supposed to help do that, but I am also trying to get speech therapist to help me further.  I wish J-Mi was still around to help explain, she knows more about this than I do, given her line of work.

By the way, you probably did your changes correctly, so your pitch control may very well work, my method of leaving the chords open was not the right way to do it.  Since I have a tremor, it may have helped control that too, but I am not sure how I came up with it, it isn't exactly something you can even tell that you're doing without a scope.

Quote from: anjaq on January 27, 2015, 11:59:13 AM
Really - oh sh... - Why did I actually work on improfing that now again for the past half year?

Probably because you've been the skeptical angel/devil-on-the-shoulder for so many of us throughout most of that time :P

Ps. I'm still getting Yeson but I'm going in May most likely. Still very much fixated on vocal matters throughout daily life. The real reason? Because it's impossible to not want a better voice when it's available.

Quote from: Rachelicious on January 27, 2015, 01:24:39 PM
The real reason? Because it's impossible to not want a better voice when it's available.

Hehe indeed - if it is available - not wanting it is kind of really hard.

Quote from: ReDucks on January 27, 2015, 12:08:14 PM
For me, I have habituated a combination of constricting my larynx up under my chin and opening my vocal folds a bit to take the resonant qualities down a few notches and as a result, my chords don't even close for half their length unless I 'belt it out'.  This serves to get the echo out of my voice in the bathroom and raise my voice from chest to throat, but requires 7x more air to talk than I should need. 

Ah ok - well that sounds not the best method. I used something similar where I used only half of my vocal chords and it was causing issues - it was why I researched voice again initially

I have gotten out of that habit with voice therapy and apparently have managed to use a good and female sounding resonance without changing pitch. So I was kind of hoping that this is going to be useful later. It is a relaxed way to use a female resonance but not pushing or squeezing it to get there.

So maybe because the voice therapist I am with was more wathcing out for my voice health than any pitch increases, it will be ok. I remember Amy had the experience that it was very similar afterwards, but a lot easier to get the right resonance - and that the transition to the head voice was better and several other really neat things.

It is going to be exciting in - well about 3 months I guess...

One thing they insisted was that I use full voice all the time when doing exercises, to develop my new voice without any 'tricks' besides consciously shifting my resonance to my head as best as possible using the exercises to develop that and to make sure I work throughout my full range.  It made sense to me when they explained it that way.

Today I made my first intentional sound, and it sounded like the old trained voice, but was full instead of forced into a female 'shape'.  I now know I am not maimed in any way, will be able to continue to communicate at no worse than before levels.  That's a relief (though I wasn't bothered much that it would be otherwise).

Still absolutely no pain or discomfort besides a slight feeling of having been to a football game and yelled too much for my team.  One thing I've noticed is how much meaningless noise I used to make.  Having to be silent has taught me that I have a continual patter of self-talk, repeating things said on TV, singing along with the radio, etc.  I guess I don't like living in silence?  I am hoping this exercise in restraint will help me be more comfortable without noise.  I think that would be a good thing for me.

I am a firm believer in visualization and mental practice when it comes to sports and life.  Every time I imagine talking, like when I want to sing along or say some comment to my spouse, I imagine it in my new voice fully realized.  I 'hear' my voice in my head being female.  I listen to women speak and mentally make my new voice fit into the conversation flawlessly.  Essentially, I practice sounding comfortable in my female voice all the time, but mentally rather than out loud.  It will help me be motivated to reach that state after I start exercises, and also help me feel comfortable with that tone in my head.  I expect the dog will stop listening to me now :)

That's great.

My main reason for getting this is because I don't want to slip back into a man's voice if I have to do something suddenly that requires me to talk, such as run behind my kids. My son once ran into the street and was almost hit by a car. He was 2 1/2. I ran behind him and in front of the car, waving and yelling... they could hit me no problem but I'd die if I lost him.

But at work all day I rarely talk. It's kind of weird in this office, most people communicate via email and IM, even if sitting right next to each other.

At home I talk more, homework with the kids, answering a billion questions... on my ham radio set I don't even talk much, lol. I do mostly morse code now, in fact my microphone is broken.

So yeah I think I could bear with silence for a while.

my 3 words yesterday were to say Happy Valentine's Day to my sweetie.  I am crawling the walls waiting until I can speak more than 3 words a day!  One more week

How did you sound?

I think it sounds weak and not too different in pitch.  http://vocaroo.com/i/s022RRH52WSb

Sounds a bit softer but you're right, not different. I guess month 2 is when it starts to rise.

Dr. Kim said it would rise quickly sometime between 2 and 6 months, it was not clear when.  The curve is steeper than you might think - ______/ rather than a gradual increase over months.

as promised, here is 60 days post op.  I have been speaking for 30 days now, and my voice has very little stamina.  This recording was made first thing in the morning without any warm-up as I wanted to capture pre-exercise voice quality so I can asses the effect of the exercises. I am also trying to speak without any attempt at raising pitch, in fact, you can hear my voice drop out at the end of the word passage as I allow myself to naturally end the sentence in a downward pitch.  The lower end just wasn't there for me, and so the word kind of died without finishing lower.  A voice therapist will really help here!

http://vocaroo.com/i/s06ZFAFynKrS

Interesting . In my perception it is mostly a feminine voice but at times it drops into androgynous. Also I hear what you say about the lower end bottoming out. I would interpret this as you speaking at your very lowest pitch range, so your average pitch should be a bit higher to allow more room at the bottom. I would assume that the voice exercises and a speech therapist will help to solve that, plus Dr Kim kind of seems to tell people that average pitch increase happens after month 2 usually - he might say that your brain needs to adapt to the new voice ;) - and I guess your brain also needs to learn to use the voice at its new optimum pitch which would be higher than what you are using in the recording.

So beginning now, you can start the exercises and voice therapy - I am sure this will help a lot.

How was the voice usage in the first month of speaking between week 4 and 8? Is it useable at all? I kind of look forward to it compared to the silence now, but I am kind of afraid that I am expecting too much by then. I ceratinly dont plan any longer speeches until month 4 or so, but by then I hope to be able to do a presentation that I have to do in June.

I agree with Anja here...  2 months is still early though.

Anjaq, speaking was hard at first but over time my voice got stronger.  I could speak a few sentences without tiring too much, but long speeches usually ended with a hoarse voice and higher pitch.  In a sense I can tell where my voice might end up by that tiredness, as my voice is beyond my control.  Now I start to work toward strengthening and stretching my range. 

Oh that is interesting. if you tire, your voice goes up? I guess that means your relaxed pitch is acutally higher than the one you are using normally now. This fits to what I have said before about you speaking at the bottom of your range. You seem to involuntarily "pull down" the pitch, which actually costs effort, makes your voice more tired, I can imagine. So you have to learn to relax and use your new natural relaxed pitch. But your brain still knows the old pitch and my imagination now would be that it tries to use that pitch and thus directs your new voice into that direction.
I guess speech therapy and just allowing yourself to relax will help :)

I hope I can say a bit more than a few words a day when the waiting time is over in about 1-2 weeks. I cannot be mute forever at work.

Anjaq, I think you're right about my vocal control getting in my way.  For these recordings I am deliberately trying not to feel a sense of controlling my pitch.  My prosody sucks, I have always resisted up talk, after being told continuously I sounded like I was unsure.  It helped to end sentences downward while in work, but isn't easy socially as it makes me sound either intense or like I am a know-it-all. 

Dont overthink it ;) - Let go, let it flow. UNlearn. You can have confidence in your voice now - it cannot let you totally down anymore :)

Quote from: anjaq on March 18, 2015, 03:57:50 PM
Dont overthink it ;) - Let go, let it flow. UNlearn. You can have confidence in your voice now - it cannot let you totally down anymore :)

Thanks :)  I'm going to take your advice!

BTW, exercises are hard!  I have trouble keeping the lip trills going, they fade out before my voice does.  It doesn't seem like it on paper but the drills are a lot of work, my throat is tired and I'm only doing the warm up and stretching/contracting.  My baseline for stretching at highest is D5 (C4 being middle C)

Do you remember I was using my phone app for testing my range?  As you suspected, my app was 1 octave low so on my phone C3 is the same pitch as Middle C.  It gets confusing, so I am just adding 1 to my pitch levels to be consistent with the rest of the world.

Weird programming then inthat app.
ah well if it works as it does now

Have you done exercises like this before surgery? are they harder now? I will have to see - before, the exercises were not hard - I loved lip trills , they helped me so much - I have to see how well I can do them now with the voice in rehab. But 5 more weeks to go ...

No I've never done drills except for choir drills a long time ago - me may ma mo mu type stuff.  I find I just can't keep the lip flutter, I sound like an old airplane running out of gas!  I think the problem may just be concentration, I am sure I'll get better over time.

I re-read my old range post and it does seem that today my full voice is about the same pitch on top, D5 but my low end is no lower than D3 so I lost about an octave from D2 to D3.  Good to know the surgery worked on the lower end, now I hope to gain some pitch on the upper, an octave (keeping the same 3 octave range) would be amazing.

ReDucks,

Have you made another recording recently? I thought the difference between the first and second was a significant change. I'd love to hear how you sound now. And, can you still reach your higher notes?

Cindi, I posted this one today. http://vocaroo.com/i/s06ZFAFynKrS

Hmm - maybe you need more breath for the lip flutters - did they tell you to use abdominal breathing as well? It may help. Also , its not a problem if the lip flutter is just a few seconds. Only pros can do it for very long. If it works for 5 seconds only, then use those 5 seconds before you run out of air or gas or whatever.

I think gaining at the upper end is less a matter of surgery as of training. I think I have not seen a claim by a surgeron that the upper range increases, the average relaxed pitch changes and the lower end goes away as well as the low timbres. The upper range seems to much more depend on training and technique. As I said - I could only go up to maybe 500 Hz at some point and went up almost to the "high C" that sporano singers can use just by using my voice differently and by training a bit. That is a range increase of at least an octave I think. I believe that this is possible to expand your range with that, too - and I hope personally that I can gain some of that back. I dont expect to reach the "high C" again or even higher, but I hope I can get somewhat up there. If I rally get back to that pitch or even surpass it, I will be amazed, though. It would be so great :)

So when people say their range didn't increase they are referring only to the top, and lost range on the bottom?  I interpreted no range loss as the range shifted up but stayed the same number of octaves, otherwise how did people speak 75 Hz higher without training their voice.  I just assumed range extended in both directions.  Bad Assumption I guess but it doesn't matter to me either way :)

I think the trills will come, I am probably just running out of air because my cords don't close properly.  I can only trill 15 seconds now (1st day) and the hums are only 10.   I need to see my therapist soon I think!

I don't see any problem with you getting back to high C if that is your range now.  I couldn't sing that high without going into falsetto in the past, I'm not sure if that will even be possible.  I asked Dr. Kim when I would be able to Yodel again and he said it depended on the break and it wouldn't be there anymore.  I assume that means no falsetto.  I'm not trying until I have some more healing time.

Well as Iunderstand it the range is decreased by the portion at the bottom and part of it may be regained at the top, but in most cases the gain at the top is not as much as the loss at the bottom. So the max pitch is probably not changing a whole lot. in some it seems to have gone up a few halftones...

You can trill 15 seconds? Woooo - I never could do much more than maybe 10. Reaching 15 was already a great day - for the lip trills it is mandatory to let a lot of air flow. That is the goal of it. Lots of airflow make the voice better and relax the muscles.

Forget about that falsetto thing. There are too many definitions of it. What do you call falsetto? Definitely to go into the upper pitch ranges I need to cross from the speaking voice into a singing voice, that includes a "head voice". The transition is a bit iffy - but I could do it. Maybe you need to get rid of classifying your voice in male parameters and descriptions :P - I dont know - would women have a "falsetto" the way you think of it?

Quote from: anjaq on March 19, 2015, 10:53:58 AM
Well as Iunderstand it the range is decreased by the portion at the bottom and part of it may be regained at the top, but in most cases the gain at the top is not as much as the loss at the bottom. So the max pitch is probably not changing a whole lot. in some it seems to have gone up a few halftones...

You can trill 15 seconds? Woooo - I never could do much more than maybe 10. Reaching 15 was already a great day - for the lip trills it is mandatory to let a lot of air flow. That is the goal of it. Lots of airflow make the voice better and relax the muscles.

Forget about that falsetto thing. There are too many definitions of it. What do you call falsetto? Definitely to go into the upper pitch ranges I need to cross from the speaking voice into a singing voice, that includes a "head voice". The transition is a bit iffy - but I could do it. Maybe you need to get rid of classifying your voice in male parameters and descriptions :P - I dont know - would women have a "falsetto" the way you think of it?

Agree there is disagreement if women have falsetto or not, I think it makes no difference to the discussion of a testosterone influenced vocal system.  That said, I have heard women yodel which is a flipping between modal and false registers, so it must exist even if the 'scholars' have renamed it.  For now I'll just call it upper register.  So when I sang a lot, I had a strong 'upper register' and could cover the break very well, making it seem to flow from modal to false without much difference in tone.  If I really squeezed I could get a high screechy tone that may be whistle but I never tried to control it or make it particularly musical.  It never sounded good enough to waste energy trying to improve.

Re: trill and airflow, I am not sure what the impact of my non-closing cords might be to that, it would seem that if they closed more, the air flow through the system would lessen and trill might be harder so maybe my cords are closing more now that they are shorter?

P.S. my yodel comment to Dr. Kim was a joke, I don't yodel at all :)

My iPad isn't playing it for some reason. I'll bookmark this page and try again tomorrow.

Quote from: ReDucks on March 19, 2015, 05:09:22 PM
For now I'll just call it upper register.  So when I sang a lot, I had a strong 'upper register' and could cover the break very well, making it seem to flow from modal to false without much difference in tone.  If I really squeezed I could get a high screechy tone that may be whistle but I never tried to control it or make it particularly musical.

Ok - and right now you cannot reach that upper register anymore? That sounds frustrating then. The lower register goes just about where normal speech is - but in femals speech patterns some of the upper register is included for intonations in the prosody. Maybe it also is an effect of the Botox? I am not yet sure which muscles really are affected, but I understood it the way that they are part of the pitch control, so I would expect less pitch range while the Botox is in effect. But thats just a theory.
Geez, I hope I get my upper range back, I was not bad in using it just pre-op after all that voice therapy and it seems to me you had that too?

Quote from: anjaq on March 20, 2015, 04:10:46 AM
Ok - and right now you cannot reach that upper register anymore? That sounds frustrating then. The lower register goes just about where normal speech is - but in femals speech patterns some of the upper register is included for intonations in the prosody. Maybe it also is an effect of the Botox? I am not yet sure which muscles really are affected, but I understood it the way that they are part of the pitch control, so I would expect less pitch range while the Botox is in effect. But thats just a theory.
Geez, I hope I get my upper range back, I was not bad in using it just pre-op after all that voice therapy and it seems to me you had that too?

I haven't tried to really access the upper range.  For now, when I do get to my break around C5, and instinctively switch, it doesn't seem the same, and I have been backing off when that happens.  For sure it isn't a smooth transition, but my throat seems tired and a bit sore after doing the exercises (day 3 today)  I don't want to push it so I am not really trying new things.  I can go higher and it feels like it is not the same register as normal speech or as my past 'upper range'.  It's new territory for me, it feels more like a cross between my old trained voice and my old falsetto voice.  Right now I am working on breath control and utilizing my full voice without breathiness and letting that all work itself out. 

I expect my instrument to change a lot as it heals, and haven't seen the pitch increase yet, so I'm just trying to stick with the exercises and build the foundation.  Sometimes when I speak in what was normal but raised pitch before, I get a higher pitch than I expect, by a lot, so I think the change is coming, but it isn't here yet.

I suspect you won't need that upper register as much after surgery, and things will be different when you do.  Which is why we went to Korea, right? :)

Well, its going to be interesting. I definitely think I want to use the upper register - if only for singing.

I only had a few words so far. It was weird and a bit like you said - if I really drop down, I am at my old pitch, if I increase just a little, I end up higher then I expected. But not much can be said from a total of maybe 4 words over the past 2 weeks or so and a week more before I can dare to use more words...

My expectations would be that the transition to the upper range is easier and that ther eis less difference between the lowe and upper registers. This is how Amy described it. I hope it happens :)

I had my first voice therapy visit and the doc was very complimentary of my voice, saying it was hard to remember I was trans and that my voice presented 'low female'.  I haven't seen much pitch change but the tone of the voice has softened and lightened a bit, which I am pleased with.  I caught a quick look at the numbers she was capturing during the evaluation, and it does seem my speaking pitch has raised on average, but I'm waiting until I see the final data.  We did a couple exercises together and she coaxed me into a more female range and I really liked the sound of what I heard.  Vocal therapy with a therapist who knows trans issues and goals is now something I would recommend to every girl, pre or post VFS.  The right therapist can make a huge difference and mine helped me in one visit to find the voice of my heart. 

3 months is coming up in a couple weeks, and voice exercises have been interesting in that they tax my voice so that it is hard to be heard for a while afterwards.  I initially focused too much on the 'record how many seconds' part and really pushed to hold the trills for 25-30 seconds.  My therapist told me to focus on the tone, softness and ease of the sounds during the exercise and ignore holding it as a goal, just keep track to be sure my breathing is improving.  It makes a big difference in duration when I don't trap air and go longer, it also makes a huge difference in the sweetness of the sound.

So glad I got into therapy!

I am so glad that things improve for you. I think I always tried to say that to everyone: get voice therapy, ideally from a specialist in gendered voices. It pays off for everyone - people who have no intention for a surgery, those who want to do the surgery and those who had the surgery . Thats because there is so much more to voice than just the pitch.
It is a bit early for me to say, but I feel my voice has softened, changed timbre and sounds more female even at a lower pitch. It is far easier to use a higher pitch now, and I think with therapy it will be not that hard to find a comfortable speaking pitch which does not strain me at all now and which is in a feminine range and which will become normal and natural for me. Before the surgery , I had to struggle to keep that higher pitch and to always "lock up" the lower and relaxed pitches. The lower ones are gone, so I can relax there now and the upper ones are so crazy easy to use. Using voice melody is soo much more easy now, I could not believe it in my first few sentences. I hope the  botox is not participating in too much of the changes as it will wear off, but I already know that that point will be a struggle.
My therapist never tried to count the seconds when I do exercises, but in the voice assessment they do count that as well as analyze pitch and range and some other parameters. But the exercises usually focussed on lightness, softness, easyness, breathing, using lots of air flow, relaxing the muscles in the jaw and projecting the voice.

here is a 90 day recording.  My voice has not changed a lot, and I think the Botox is wearing off because my voice is weaker, and I can hear and feel some hoarseness when I talk that isn't easy to clear up.  I think you'll pick some of it up on certain words in this recording.  Anyway, still on track, but the majority of work and improvement is still before me. 

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1vWPE6JZ8WV

Yeah I can hear you struggling a bit. You almost sound like Eva in the Dr Haben thread.

However they did say that pitch increase happens beyond month 2, so I'm guessing you still have a ways to go.

Quote from: iKate on April 22, 2015, 12:16:23 PM
Yeah I can hear you struggling a bit. You almost sound like Eva in the Dr Haben thread.

However they did say that pitch increase happens beyond month 2, so I'm guessing you still have a ways to go.

Kate, since I'm a bit older than the average, Dr. said it would be more likely to change at or after 4 months. 

I do not try to keep the voice up in these recordings as I wanted to give a realistic progression from surgery after seeing so many questions on when the voice changes or hearing others trying to reach for fast results and then feeling cheated that it didn't happen for them as fast as Jenny or J-mi. 

I can honestly say I am already happy, even if my pitch hasn't increased a lot... I am almost rid of the low resonant tones that ring out in the bathroom or other large hollow spaces, and I have lost my lower octave while gaining almost that much on top.  Voice training is just starting for me, so I hope there will be more control and ease in my voice as the surgery heals fully.

Cool - you actually gained an octave at the top? Thats nice. For me so far, I lost maybe 3 notes at the bottom end and one at the top end, reducing my overall range from 3.7 octaves to about 3 octaves. Thats at the 8 week mark.

So if botox is wearing off, you are supposed to take the pills for another 3 months, right?

Yeah pills will start in a week or two, I'm still not sure it has worn off or if I just have a hoarse voice.  You really sound good, I think I gained just 10Hz in average speaking pitch when I did my initial eval with my speech therapist. 

I have posted 4 month post op results.  This is a natural speaking voice with no attempt to raise pitch or speak in a 'trained' voice.  Botox wore off a couple weeks ago and I started the pills, but I am not sure if they are helping or hurting the hoarseness. 

http://vocaroo.com/i/s12smUk3g9sC

Hi. When did the Botox wear off for you and what did the pills help with? I am at end of month 3 now and I feel like maybe the Botox is already getting weaker. I feel like I have more issues with my voice and not less - more hearseness, "foreign body sensation" and such. I think I will watch it for some more days and if it persists or gets worse, ask Jessie.

I think the pitch in your recording is really good. Its not squeaky high, but its clearly in a female range, I would say. (y)

Quote from: anjaq on May 25, 2015, 01:31:38 PM
Hi. When did the Botox wear off for you and what did the pills help with? I am at end of month 3 now and I feel like maybe the Botox is already getting weaker. I feel like I have more issues with my voice and not less - more hearseness, "foreign body sensation" and such. I think I will watch it for some more days and if it persists or gets worse, ask Jessie.

It seemed to start fading about 3 months into recovery and I started pills at 4 months.  I think my voice has changed a good bit in strength and clarity in just the last month, my recording was first take right after waking up, later in the day, my voice gets tired and sounds raspy.  I may take some time off the pills to see what happens then, but am waiting to hear back from Dr. Kim before changing anything.

Quote from: anjaq on May 25, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
I think the pitch in your recording is really good. Its not squeaky high, but its clearly in a female range, I would say. (y)

Thanks! I'm excited by the progress I'm making but still taking it slow.  My prosody is terrible, I really admire your 'song' when you speak, it really sounds natural and pleasing to the ear.  I hope my therapist helps me achieve something similar, right now were just starting out and my voice is a moving target, so who knows where I'll end up.

Quote from: ReDucks on May 25, 2015, 08:42:16 PM
Thanks! I'm excited by the progress I'm making but still taking it slow.  My prosody is terrible, I really admire your 'song' when you speak, it really sounds natural and pleasing to the ear.  I hope my therapist helps me achieve something similar, right now were just starting out and my voice is a moving target, so who knows where I'll end up.

I have to admit, my prosody is not so much a product of my voice therapy but rather of just living and intuition and maybe learning by living... and the VFS helped a lot with it because it feels soooo much easier now to use different pitches when speaking, I dont need to force it anymore :) - I still do need to improve on my prosody though. When talking without reading, it is more monotonous and I sometimes talk too fast, use filler words and therelike. But my voice therapist was doing some exercises about prosody when I was starting therapy again about 18 months ago - now, post-VFS we are also just starting slow. just trying mostly to relax the voice, find the sweet spots, get rid of hoarseness and improve projection and airflow - more basic stuff for now.

Here is my 6 month recording, you can really tell the difference voice training makes in controlling resonance.  The surgery has continued to heal and every month I have a stronger and clearer voice, but I still tire quickly and start the day a bit weakly until I've warmed up a bit. :)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0oFY7BhEiJu


I hope these recordings give you all a bit of insight into how the voice surgery can help an older woman with a lot of bad habits and patterns to correct.  My goal is to give a straight up recording without any attempt to pretty things up.  In this recording I'm deliberately trying to control the resonance this surgery won't fix through simple techniques taught in the 'Resonant Voice Therapy' approach.  I'm trying to stay with chest voice 100% and not slip into head voice when raising my pitch, though that has been a challenge so far as the break between head and chest has steadily changed over the past 6 months.  In this recording, I managed to stay under the break pretty well, and think my voice is improving quite a bit from the original recordings I've posted at the beginning of this thread.

Thoughts?   

Is this at all valuable?

That's interesting. You sound good, pitch wise but it clearly sounds like you're struggling a bit.

The stamina part is interesting. At month 1 and almost 2 weeks I have all the stamina I had pre-op, as long as I don't talk too loudly. Too loudly means more than 60dB measured at 3 feet.  I still try not to push it though.

However I was at a loud indoor gun range yesterday shooting with the women's group (I'm a member) and I was able to talk no problem but I had to talk closer than I usually do.

At month 2 I will probably be doing longer talking and maybe a bit louder as I can.

Also, are you taking the clonazepam? I'm scared to take it due to side effects.

Thanks for sharing. Your experience has certainly swung me in the direction of Yeson, and it is one of the reasons why I chose to go there. I am almost 37 so I'm no spring chicken either but it is good to hear good results from people.

Quote from: iKate on August 04, 2015, 11:34:03 AM
That's interesting. You sound good, pitch wise but it clearly sounds like you're struggling a bit.

The stamina part is interesting. At month 1 and almost 2 weeks I have all the stamina I had pre-op, as long as I don't talk too loudly. Too loudly means more than 60dB measured at 3 feet.  I still try not to push it though.

However I was at a loud indoor gun range yesterday shooting with the women's group (I'm a member) and I was able to talk no problem but I had to talk closer than I usually do.

At month 2 I will probably be doing longer talking and maybe a bit louder as I can.

Also, are you taking the clonazepam? I'm scared to take it due to side effects.

Thanks for sharing. Your experience has certainly swung me in the direction of Yeson, and it is one of the reasons why I chose to go there. I am almost 37 so I'm no spring chicken either but it is good to hear good results from people.

Thanks iKate, I'm sure 37 feels old, I'm 20 years older than you so to me you're still a youngster ;) 

I stopped the clonazepam after a couple weeks because 1) I was trying to do expensive vocal therapy while my voice was partially disabled by the Botox / clonazepam, and 2) I got a blast of really low emotions, depressed feelings, and it scared me.  I have never experienced depression / hopelessness that intense, and there was no reason for me to feel that way.  I was back to normal in 24 hours.

I'm not struggling at all, in fact it was easy and calm to speak this morning.  I do have some diplophonia still and huskiness, I think the struggle you heard was just some morning hoarseness and the fact that vocoroo blasts the volume at you.  When I listen at 1/2 volume it sounds a lot less struggling to me.  That said, I can't make it through a whole day without getting tired sounding and hoarse... I think I talk too loud when I do talk :)

Yeah, that depression scares me. Dr Kim said take it at night, but... I'm wondering if I could get more botox instead.

Quote from: iKate on August 04, 2015, 11:47:20 AM
Yeah, that depression scares me. Dr Kim said take it at night, but... I'm wondering if I could get more botox instead.

I did switch to daytime as I take all my vitamins and such in the morning.... taking at bedtime may be a way around it.

Thats interesting. My voice break between head and chest voice has not changed and is not changing. Its rather low, around C4/D4 , so I do have to work with it and get used to go over it while using my voice in regular speech :(
I wish I would know how to shift it up a bit so I could stay in chest voice more.

I am also closing in on the month 6 time point. I only get hoarse when I really talk a lot, but my voice still has a permanent huskiness and some diplophonia and "noise" in it.

I do take the clonazepam though - I wonder if this is making it better or if it also causes problems. I am in month 2 of taking it now, so I have only about a month of it left. For me it did not cause any depression or other issues. In fact it seems to make me sleep better when I take it in the evenings and it relaxes some other muscles as well, like muscles in my back that used to cause me pain, they are less active now and so I actually have less back pain.

Does anyone know how the difference is between having clonazepam and being without it in terms of voice control and voice training? Is it harder or easiert to speak and have voice training without the pills - or is it the other way around?

Greetings

What did Dr. Kim said the clonazepam was for. That is a pretty powerful drug and taking it that far after surgery makes me wonder what the reason could be.

Dr Habens drug list was a good deal different.
Cough medicine for coughs and pain control - 7 day supply. I used one round of it and it knocked me out so bad, I am reserving it in case I come down with something that might destroy my voice.

Steroids give for a few days after surgery to reduce swelling. The tapering off period was far longer that full dose.

Prilosec given for 30 days to slow the dissolving of the suture. It would have been longer if I had Acid reflux.

Quote from: Dena on August 05, 2015, 10:05:31 PM
What did Dr. Kim said the clonazepam was for. That is a pretty powerful drug and taking it that far after surgery makes me wonder what the reason could be.

Muscle relaxant to mimic the effect of botox after it has worn off. It's a lower dose than for its other uses.

Quote
Dr Habens drug list was a good deal different.
Cough medicine for coughs and pain control - 7 day supply. I used one round of it and it knocked me out so bad, I am reserving it in case I come down with something that might destroy my voice.

Steroids give for a few days after surgery to reduce swelling. The tapering off period was far longer that full dose.

Prilosec given for 30 days to slow the dissolving of the suture. It would have been longer if I had Acid reflux.

We got almost the same. Immediately postop we got antibiotics, digestant and something else. We also got synatura which is a pretty powerful Korean cough medicine. Works better than anything I've tried in the USA. We wouldn't get anything for dissolving sutures since Dr Kim does not use them.

Quote from: iKate on August 05, 2015, 10:11:03 PM
Muscle relaxant to mimic the effect of botox after it has worn off. It's a lower dose than for its other uses.

Botox is also something that is puzzling because while Dr. Haben uses it in some procedures, I don't think it was used for this. If he used it, it would have been while I was still out of it.

The Botox and Clonazepam is given to everone who is diagnosed with a "vocal tremor", which however basically is almost everyone. Its effect is to dampen the contractions of some side-muscles (not the CT muscle or the vocalis muscle themselves!), which could interfere with a clean vocalization pattern. The muscle that is botoxed is called thyroarytenoid muscle. This is how I understood it, I am not sure if this is correct. The clonazepam of course relaxes all muscles, not just this one, so I somehow always had the impression that botox is better than the clonazepam.

I can't believe that vocal tremors are that common in the population or I would have noticed it more in other peoples voices. What I think might be possible is some of the work Dr Kim is doing could up the probability that you develop vocal tremors after surgery. Possibility the Botox allows the cord muscles to build up enough to control the tremors when the drugs wear off. I am only guessing because I still don't really understand Dr Kims surgery. I understand the cord shorting part but is he is doing additional work as well and that's the part I don't understand.

I am not sure he is doing so much additional work except placing the sutures in a way that allows correction of asymmetries and therelike.
From what I understand it, vocal tremors are rather common, but usually not required to be treated - in people seeking this surgery they are more common because often the voice has been used in a different, often unnatural or forced way for years. My guess is that the surgery makes these tremors happen stronger and be more noticeable, so they supress them in the first months until the surgery site has healed and the tremors subside (hopefully) once the body and brain has gotten used to the new configuration.

By the way we found out which muscle he probably uses botox on - its the musles left and right of the m vocalis, which bascically is the muscle that runs through the vocal folds. That outer muscle controls closure of the vocal folds and can add additional tension to the vocal folds and thus fine tune pitch. So as long as it is knocked out, it is pretty clear that the voice has to be more breathy (not enough closure) and that pitch control may be difficult.

I definitely had a tremor. You could hear it, in fact. I should dig up the file and you can hear it.

I remember Jenny saying that the tremor made the voice sound less feminine, or something like that (please correct me if I'm wrong!) which is why Dr Kim treats it.