Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This came up in a thread about another topic and rather than derailing it, I'm moving the discussion here.

A male-bodied person is convicted and sentenced to prison. They announce they are transgender and wish to transition. They ask to be put in a women's prison.

Do we let them? Or do we subject them to some sort of test?

If we let them, are we opening the door to letting into women's prison all sorts of mentwith all sorts of motives (looking to avoid the brutality of men's prison? Looking to commit sexual assault? Or maybe, really trans...). If we apply some sort of test, aren't we giving gatekeepers power over someone's transition, something many of us find abhorrent?

What should the policy be?

I really didn't think that was up for debate in the US justice system. If we are purely supposing the future it's not something I would support. The challenge consistently remains to get medical care period, and jail placement is based anatomically. The numerous non-ops that have legally changed their gender prior to a conviction will be in court about that sooner or later.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 10, 2014, 08:53:15 AM
This came up in a thread about another topic and rather than derailing it, I'm moving the discussion here.

A male-bodied person is convicted and sentenced to prison. They announce they are transgender and wish to transition. They ask to be put in a women's prison.

Do we let them? Or do we subject them to some sort of test?

If we let them, are we opening the door to letting into women's prison all sorts of mentwith all sorts of motives (looking to avoid the brutality of men's prison? Looking to commit sexual assault? Or maybe, really trans...). If we apply some sort of test, aren't we giving gatekeepers power over someone's transition, something many of us find abhorrent?

What should the policy be?

First, thanks for breaking this out of the other topic, Suzi.

This is tough. Someone who has lived male, got in trouble as a man, then announces that they're transgender after sentencing certainly may not be as straightforward as it looks. I think it's a slightly different situation than the Pvt. Manning discussion, I recall she identified as transgender before sentencing, and had engaged in at least crossdressing or presenting as female earlier.

Regarding a test, if they come up with that you can bet it will be selling like hotcakes here! :) Seriously, though, is there anyone here that would like taking a test to prove that they are who they say they are?

I hope I never need to put myself into a situation where I find out.

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on December 10, 2014, 09:12:46 AM
The numerous non-ops that have legally changed their gender prior to a conviction will be in court about that sooner or later.

Filing a class action lawsuit against the state for cruel and unusual punishment I presume.

Perhaps what all of us have to do? Talk with a therapist and actually be diagnosed with gender dysphoria?

If someone is lying, it should become readily apparent to an experienced therapist pretty quickly. Someone claiming to have experienced transgender feelings will almost always have life stories that back it up. Someone who's just faking it, their stories will fall apart pretty quickly when a professional therapist asks them questions about their past.

To be fair, though, then there's the issue of having a therapist with too rigorous standards, which a lot of us have to face, or therapists who disagree entirely with the very existence of GD and see it as nothing but a mental disorder stemming from other life problems, so I don't know. I hate this imperfect world sometimes. :( It makes everything so damned complicated.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 10, 2014, 08:53:15 AM
This came up in a thread about another topic and rather than derailing it, I'm moving the discussion here.

A male-bodied person is convicted and sentenced to prison. They announce they are transgender and wish to transition. They ask to be put in a women's prison.

Do we let them? Or do we subject them to some sort of test?

If we let them, are we opening the door to letting into women's prison all sorts of mentwith all sorts of motives (looking to avoid the brutality of men's prison? Looking to commit sexual assault? Or maybe, really trans...). If we apply some sort of test, aren't we giving gatekeepers power over someone's transition, something many of us find abhorrent?

What should the policy be?

The "gates" that have been set in place by the medical community, e.g. letter from a mental health practitioner for HRT, letter from mental health practitioner plus one year RLF as a condtion for SRS, to mitigate the risk of people who undergo these changes just to chnge their minds later on... I mean we had several threads on "de-transtioning" horror stories...


So, if a person who is in prison wants to be "housed" in the jail of the opposite gender, then he/she should go through the same wickets as the rest of us. Psychological/psychiatric evaluation before HRT, then intimate HRT, keep them segregate from the general population -under HRT_ for a year.. then more psychiatric evaluation, then SRS, legal name change, and now we are ready to place them in the jail congruent with their new gender...

I've been wondering which pokey they'd send me to now. 

I haven't had SRS, but I'm post orchi, on HRT for almost 2 years and am legally recognized as female.   You can't exactly lock me up with the guys.

I still have residual guy junk, so I probably wouldn't get locked up with the ladies until that was addressed.   Good luck getting SRS in prison though.

Unwarranted solitary confinement?

Guess I have to really watch myself now.   I have yet to see the inside of a jail, so I should probably keep it that way.

   

That is definately a bigger concern for the "MTF" person than for the "FTM" person.

Until the "FTM" person actually has the bottom surgery the only logical choice would be the women's prison.  Placing him in the male prision while still having a vagina or not having penis would  be likely to result in him being sexually abused.

For the "MTF" person it would be a more difficult decision. If she looked feminine or had feminine breasts and other features but still had a penis she really wouldn't be safe in either the women's or men's prison. However, if she already had total SRS the women's prision should be the only choice for her.

Quote from: Hanazono on December 10, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
I suggest that the only way for the state to house male bodied persons in female facilities is to offer gonadectomy (physical orchidectomy) as a mandatory step prior to it.

A faker would be found out real fast.

LOL. the volunteer pool would quickly go dry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ooh, free orchiectomy? Sign me up for a felony! :D

Quote from: Hanazono on December 10, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
I suggest that the only way for the state to house male bodied persons in female facilities is to offer gonadectomy (physical orchidectomy) as a mandatory step prior to it.

A faker would be found out real fast.

Are there are cases in which we'd have to "prove" our transness by altering our bodies whether we want them altered or not?

This is a terrifying slippery slope I DON'T want to go slipping down.

I came across this article recently. I was going to summarize, but not sure what to say.

In the Gay Wing of L.A. Men's Central Jail, It's Not Shanks and Muggings But Hand-Sewn Gowns and Tears
http://www.laweekly.com/informer/2014/11/18/in-the-gay-wing-of-la-mens-central-jail-its-not-shanks-and-muggings-but-hand-sewn-gowns-and-tears?showFullText=true

In Australia, you are incarcerated in the gaol of the gender you identify as.

Thanks a lot to Heather Stokes, a leading defence lawyer who is also trans*, and a friend.

Part of the other post was concerning the importance of speaking out. Heather did, I do, you can.

How?

You write letters to the newspapers. You phone the radio station and tell them on air that they are wrong.

You speak for your sisters and brothers.

Every time one of us talks we shake the tree. Every time one of us presents on TV as a normal person we make people think.

Every time we stand in front of a class room we change the opinion of kids- and they change their parents' opinion.

We are normal men and women, all we have to get across is that message. To be honest, it has been very easy.

You just have to take the first step.

I've got to admit, this one has me stumped. Here's what I'm sure of:
* I don't want our transitions to ever need "approval" by anyone. Even applies to convicts and inmates (who, it turns out, are human beings).
* The timing of our transitions should be up to us. I can easily imagine a transwoman whose dysphoria has been eased by presenting female in private, suddenly wanting to transition on the occasion of a prison sentence, since that would no longer be an option in prison.

However,
* Allowing just anyone to claim they're trans and automatically get access to female penal facilities seems a problem as well.

The best alternative is a facility for MtF (maybe FtM, though don't know how they would feel about being in a women's facility. Might not be as a bad.), but would be a major expense for smaller jurisdictions.

I need to think more about this.

There is a potential problem for MTF and FTM prisons as well. Seeing as how we are minorities in the extreme, they would have very few of these prisons. It might require us to go to another state. With a regular prison you might get lucky and get a halfway decent one or you might get an abusive one. What if all the trans prisons are abusive?

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 12, 2014, 12:15:01 PM
I've got to admit, this one has me stumped. Here's what I'm sure of:
* I don't want our transitions to ever need "approval" by anyone. Even applies to convicts and inmates (who, it turns out, are human beings).
* The timing of our transitions should be up to us. I can easily imagine a transwoman whose dysphoria has been eased by presenting female in private, suddenly wanting to transition on the occasion of a prison sentence, since that would no longer be an option in prison.

However,
* Allowing just anyone to claim they're trans and automatically get access to female penal facilities seems a problem as well.

The best alternative is a facility for MtF (maybe FtM, though don't know how they would feel about being in a women's facility. Might not be as a bad.), but would be a major expense for smaller jurisdictions.

I need to think more about this.

Quote from: awilliams1701 on December 12, 2014, 12:20:48 PM
There is a potential problem for MTF and FTM prisons as well. Seeing as how we are minorities in the extreme, they would have very few of these prisons. It might require us to go to another state. With a regular prison you might get lucky and get a halfway decent one or you might get an abusive one. What if all the trans prisons are abusive?

A potential problem, yes, as well as the fact that if you're out of state, hard for loved ones to visit you.

I guess it's just a question of how bad your dysphoria is. Is being in a men's prison bad enough that you're willing to be shipped out of state and risk a bad situation? Trade-offs, yes, but at least gives us a way to avoid being in a men's prison.

Quote from: Hanazono on December 10, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
I suggest that the only way for the state to house male bodied persons in female facilities is to offer gonadectomy (physical orchidectomy) as a mandatory step prior to it.

A faker would be found out real fast.

It would have to be total removal and not just orchidectomy. I would then accept it.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 12, 2014, 12:15:01 PM
However,
* Allowing just anyone to claim they're trans and automatically get access to female penal facilities seems a problem as well.

We have this problem in the UK. In 2011 the requirements were relaxed to allow self-diagnosis and it now appears that exactly the problem you mention is occurring. Since the guidelines were relaxed the numbers of prisoners requesting access to female prisons has increased five-fold. getting treatment for being transsexual in UK prisons is possible and I personally know someone who transitioned in prison. Interestingly, when I was attending my Gender Clinic for an appointment some years ago, a person was brought in handcuffed to some sort of guard/policeman.

It appears that the govt is now considering that being "transgender" is not enough and you have to be a medically monitored and diagnosed transsexual.  It is not mentioned in the article below, but I cannot locate  where I came across it.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/07/28/uk-prison-officials-concerned-inmates-may-be-identifying-as-transgender-for-a-soft-life/


One interesting loophole is the use of Gender Recognition Certificates. In the UK these are used to get a new birth certificate and they legally changes your gender for ALL legal purposes. So, if someone MTF holding a GRC was arrested and imprisoned, they would have to be sent to a female prison regardless of how they looked. Some who does not hold a GRC is legally male and could be sent to a male prison, even if on hormones and visually female and would have to request a female prison.

I hope this helps your deliberations

This is going downhill. Only one person knows if someone is transgender. The person.

Forcing people to have surgery? Unbelievable that I would read that here.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: amnwyd on December 12, 2014, 12:45:06 PM
One interesting loophole is the use of Gender Recognition Certificates. In the UK these are used to get a new birth certificate and they legally changes your gender for ALL legal purposes. So, if someone MTF holding a GRC was arrested and imprisoned, they would have to be sent to a female prison regardless of how they looked. Some who does not hold a GRC is legally male and could be sent to a male prison, even if on hormones and visually female and would have to request a female prison.

I hope this helps your deliberations

I'd be in favor of the GRC - seems like it solves a lot of problems - as long as one doesn't need some sort of permission. Should be enough just to assert under oath that you're planning to live your life as a member of your new gender. Once you start imposing conditions, then gatekeepers start showing up.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 12, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
This is going downhill. Only one person knows if someone is transgender. The person.

Forcing people to have surgery? Unbelievable that I would read that here.

Hugs, Devlyn

I agree, Devlyn. In addition to being medieval, forced surgery to "prove" your transness is invalidating to non-ops.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 12, 2014, 12:53:42 PM
I'd be in favor of the GRC - seems like it solves a lot of problems - as long as one doesn't need some sort of permission. Should be enough just to assert under oath that you're planning to live your life as a member of your new gender. Once you start imposing conditions, then gatekeepers start showing up.

I agree, Devlyn. In addition to being medieval, forced surgery to "prove" your transness is invalidating to non-ops.

Yeah, and no good at all for someone with hemophilia.  :-\

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 12, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
This is going downhill. Only one person knows if someone is transgender. The person.

Forcing people to have surgery? Unbelievable that I would read that here.

You did not read it in my post either.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 12, 2014, 12:53:42 PM
Should be enough just to assert under oath that you're planning to live your life as a member of your new gender. Once you start imposing conditions, then gatekeepers start showing up.

You cannot have it both ways. Self-certification gets abused, that means some sort of gatekeeping is needed to prevent it.

I suppose we could send the inmates on a course in Moral Philosophy and Ethics and ask them to obey the rules, but one the career requirements for criminals is NOT obeying the rules.

I always find the prison threads interesting.  A lot of trans* people who would be incensed if their gender identities were not recognized and who recognize that the trope about men in women's facilities in the rest of the world is absurd, suddenly start insisting on special tests for prisoners and getting very concerned about men claiming to identify as women so that the men can go into women's facilities.  It's the one time when i have seen large numbers of trans* people start to agree with a group like the Family Research Council on both the position (trans* people should be housed based on genitals) and the reasons (men will pretend so they can get transferred to womens prisons).  But is there any evidence of that?  I'm not aware of any.

Historically, prisons have general housed trans* people based on anatomy.  That means men in women's prisons if they are FtM and women in men's prisons if they are MtF.  The main problem with this has been assault, especially sexual assault.  In the US, we have made a legal and policy judgment that says people in prisons should not be raped.  It still happens sometimes.  And it was happening to trans* prisoners a lot more than other prisoners, sometimes with participation by prison guards.  This still happens in many prisons. 

This placed prison administrators in a quandary.  They couldn't allow prisoners to be raped.  They started (and still continue) losing lawsuits alleging that the prison staff did not keep the trans* prisoner safe.  So they couldn't house them based on genitals alone.  And of course they couldn't respect a trans* person's gender identity because (they believed) anyone with boy parts is male and should be called he and anyone with girl parts is female and should be called she, no matter how they might identify.  So some prisons began automatically housing trans* prisoners in "administrative segregation" a/k/a solitary confinement, either on arrival or after the trans* prisoner is assaulted.

But solitary confinement poses other problems.  It involves isolation inside of a cell for 23 hours a day without other contact from people.  This creates health problems--especially mental health issues.  And it also isolates the trans* person from access to programs available for other prisoners.  For example, educational programs are often available to help prisoners obtain credentials like a GED so that the prisoner may be more likely to have options on the outside world beyond committing crimes.  It usually is used for short periods of time as a punishment for the worst behaved inmates.  But for transgender people, it is used for long periods of time, including entire sentences.  Synthia Blast, for example, has been held in solitary for more than a decade now.  So what we have now is transgender people being punished much more harshly than cisgender people solely because of their gender identity.  That practice is increasingly being challenged as well on Eighth amendment grounds, among others.

Now we see two other trends emerging, partly due to standards promulgated by the Department of Justice pursuant the the Prison Rape Elimination Act.  Some prisons are, for the first time, housing trans* prisoners according to their gender identities.  The Harris County jail in Houston, Texas, is among the higher profile detention centers trying this.  They began about a year ago and so far there have been no problems that I know of.  More specifically, there have been no reports of men claiming to be transgender so they can get into the women's facility.

Another approach being tried is the creation of "trans* only" detention facilities.  Rikers Island prison in New York is a high profile example of this approach.  Their facility began operation last month, so it's too soon to say much about how it is working.  I'm trying to provide factual history here, so I will refrain from stating an opinion on it. :)

But one thing that shows itself to be true over and over and over again in every setting is that there are far fewer problems when one respects trans* people's gender identities.  It works better in locker rooms, bathrooms, and other places.  And prisons seem to be no exception.  Time will tell if I'm right about that . . . but evidence so far seems to suggest the correctness of that view.

If there were evidence of a problem with men claiming to identify as women, or vice versa, just to get into the opposite sex facilities, then I'd agree it was a concern.  But I've seen no evidence of that being an issue.  When I advise policy makers, I prefer to advise them based on things that are actually happening.  When they raise hypothetical situations that just aren't happening, I advise them to focus on real problems instead of issues that don't exist.  And it's the same thing here unless someone knows of a rash of this happening that I have somehow missed. :)

Nice post, ThePhoenix.

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 06:49:39 PM
I think a reminder that an incarcerated person's rights are diminished because of their offense. hence it's a useful deterrent to being caught for any offence...

if the male bodied prisoners who have not made any commitment towards transitioning whether were to be housed with female bodied prisoners, would that diminish the rights of female bodied prisoners to a safe environment?

put the shoe on the other leg. mtfs don't like being housed with men because they (mtf) are not men.
so... should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to be housed with obviously non female or non female bodied prisoners?

kindly examine the argument you had put forth. if it were indeed as above stated, it smacks of hypocrisy...

the special prisoner would have to end up in solitary confinement anyway, until some certain threshold is reached? then it would not matter which facility  the convict was held in so long as it's solitary. 
and solitary isn't healthy.

just to cite a local court case. a Thai mtf postop was caught smuggling non hardcore drugs (the kind smugglers don't get a death sentence for) into my country.

as her passport said male (Thai cannot change gender marker even postop ) she was appropriately sentenced to caning (male punishment ) and men's prison but of course she was examined by a doctor to be female bodied, spared caning and housed in female facilities.

That isn't how it works here. You give up your freedom, not your rights while you're imprisoned.

Well, I cannot speak to Thai law.  But as to this point:

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 06:49:39 PM
if the male bodied prisoners who have not made any commitment towards transitioning whether were to be housed with female bodied prisoners, would that diminish the rights of female bodied prisoners to a safe environment?

put the shoe on the other leg. mtfs don't like being housed with men because they (mtf) are not men.
so... should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to be housed with obviously non female or non female bodied prisoners?

I see no difference between your question and these:

Should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to have obviously non female or non female bodied people with them in women's restrooms?
Should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to have obviously non female or non female bodied people with them in women's locker rooms?
Should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to have obviously non female or non female bodied people with them in women's fitting rooms?
Should cis/female bodied prisoners be forced to have obviously non female or non female bodied people with them in women's homeless shelters? 

MtF people are either men or they aren't.  We either respect their identity or we don't.  Trans* identities are either real or they aren't.  If we want our identities respected, then we have to respect other people's identities.  the rule is not that we respect identities until they become inconvenient.

If we say that an MtF person is a woman and not a man, then thats the answer and we should act accordingly.  To turn around and say that MtF people are women unless they are in prison makes no logical sense.  There's just no reason to spontaneously change a person's gender because they get locked up.  So to argue that tra s* identities should be respected unless they are get arrested does indeed seem hypocritical. 

The other issue that often comes up in these threads is judgmentalism toward criminals.  There are some bad people in prison, no doubt.  But I live in an area (Metro D.C.) where stats published in 2013 show a 50% unemployment rate for trans* people.  A majority (I think 2/3, but I don't have the stats in front of me now) of MtF trans* people here have done survival sex work.  These are not evil people.  These are people who just don't want to die, but no one will hire them because they are trans*, so they do what they must to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.  Desperate people do desperate things.

Sex work, of course, is illegal even if it's your only way to survive.  The example of CeCe McDonald shows how trans* people can find themselves locked up for not allowing themselves to be killed. 

So when we talk about trans* prisoners, we are talking about a lot of very desperate people who aren't bad folks at all.  But because of who they are, they found themselves in pretty awful situations and they did what they could to survive.  And then--still because of who they are--they are treated even worse than a truly bad person. 

It seems to me that something is wrong with that too. 

Quote from: Hanazono on December 12, 2014, 06:49:39 PM
I think a reminder that an incarcerated person's rights are diminished because of their offense. hence it's a useful deterrent to being caught for any offence...

Yes, but they are not subject to cruelty. That's against our constitution.

Quote from: Jill F on December 10, 2014, 03:46:58 PM
I've been wondering which pokey they'd send me to now. 

I haven't had SRS, but I'm post orchi, on HRT for almost 2 years and am legally recognized as female.   You can't exactly lock me up with the guys.

I still have residual guy junk, so I probably wouldn't get locked up with the ladies until that was addressed.   Good luck getting SRS in prison though.

Unwarranted solitary confinement?

Guess I have to really watch myself now.   I have yet to see the inside of a jail, so I should probably keep it that way.

   

I'm in the same boat. The chances of me going to jail/prison are pretty slim. The only thing I can think of that could land me in any trouble is if I killed someone in self-defense. Other than that, I should never be in any situations like that.

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on December 12, 2014, 08:12:27 PM
I'm in the same boat. The chances of me going to jail/prison are pretty slim. The only thing I can think of that could land me in any trouble is if I killed someone in self-defense. Other than that, I should never be in any situations like that.

We're all one car accident or DUI away from jail, remember that. Text and drive, kill somebody?  That's vehicular homicide.  Like ThePhoenix said, not everyone in jail is a bad person.

@ Hanazono: "I do recall that a fundamental right of a person is freedom of movement...hmmm ?   so not having that would really be a diminishment of rights, de facto rather than de jure of course... how would a person with no freedom have full rights, anyway ?"

When we are referring to rights in the US, it is The Bill Of Rights we are referring to, and freedom of movement isn't included. Probably because our rights apply equally to all citizens, including prisoners.  http://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/bill-of-rights/  I realize I may be interpreting your response incorrectly,  perhaps you meant where you live. I apologize if so.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 12, 2014, 08:24:16 PM
We're all one car accident or DUI away from jail, remember that. Text and drive, kill somebody?  That's vehicular homicide. 

I don't text
I don't drive
I don't drink
But I can still friggin' think.

I can't keep up
I can't keep up
I can't keep up
I can't keep up

I'm out of step with this world

Having dealt with inmates in law enforcement and having many friends and colleagues in corrections, I think the best solution is to evaluate and place the inmate in gender appropriate prisons. If someone identifies as MTF then they should be in a female prison. Prisons have psychiatrists and they should be able to make a fair assessment. Violent inmates are going to wind up segregated from general population anyway. Women's prisons aren't all peaches and cream either. I knew one CO who worked in a women's prison and she had multiple lacerations on her head from assaults by female inmates.

Quote from: ImagineKate on January 04, 2015, 01:51:16 PM
Prisons have psychiatrists and they should be able to make a fair assessment.

But therein lies the problem. I had a psychiatrist sneer at the fact I might be trans and tell me not to transition. What would you do if a psychiatrist declared you "not trans" and sent you to a men's prison? Do we really want psychiatrists to have that kind of power over us?

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 04, 2015, 06:37:36 PM
But therein lies the problem. I had a psychiatrist sneer at the fact I might be trans and tell me not to transition. What would you do if a psychiatrist declared you "not trans" and sent you to a men's prison? Do we really want psychiatrists to have that kind of power over us?

That's a good point. That's why the trans community needs to help get training for these people and the inmate or accused should have the ability to call in someone specialized in gender issues.

Unfortunately trans is one of the smaller issues in prison for society at large and it simply does not get the airtime. Plus the public is of the opinion that prison is not supposed to be summer camp (it isn't). However we should be respecting basic human rights and that includes proper healthcare including mental health care.

There is really no easy answer to this unfortunately. Best to lawyer up if you get arrested. That's your best defense.