Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Wow,

I was out shopping with my wife and we split up while I was trying on shoes.  I was getting ready to pay when she came running up and said she had seen a transgendered woman working in another part of the store.  She was insistent that I go with her and see the girl.  I saw why - the girl was trying but she didn't pass at all.  The thing was that with a little guidance, she would pass.  The other thing was that she was more than likely relatively new and relatively short time on HRT.  My best guess is that she will be positively beautiful in another year.  I really wanted to go over, encourage her and offer some advice but I didn't know how to do this.  We shopped for a couple of minutes and then left.  But it was so frustrating just to leave - I could help her so much. 

What to do???

Jen

 well, a store is a pretty normal place to strike up a conversation

I think that someone offering help because they have experience in the matter would be welcome especially by someone just starting out. If I were in that situation, I'd most certainly listen to someone that offered advice to better myself. I'm sure she's likely nervous and self conscious of the fact that she does not pass but may not have the knowledge or resources to make the improvements necessary.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Hi Jen - I would suggest to offer help and encouragement, especially for someone potentially new it could really help them move forward rather than maybe being clocked and having bad comments thrown at them. A always nice to get help from those who have been there, done that so to speak.

Jenni from MN

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say it's pretty rude to be judging them in the first place, secondly you're assuming things that you can't possibly know for sure just by looking at them, and thirdly, you're putting your desire to pass onto other people when it may not be there.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Basically, unless they ask you for help, it's not cool to comment on their inability to pass as whatever you think is obvious that they are trying to pass as and how they can "fix" it. 

I'd say that leaving her alone or treating her like the woman she is would be the best thing for her.

If she's new to this, then she'll figure things out.  Right now she probably feels like she's passing reasonably well, and it took a ton of courage to get her to take the last few steps.  So I'd say that approaching her - even with good intentions - could damage her self confidence.

Quote from: Danielle Emmalee on December 15, 2014, 11:05:08 PM
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say it's pretty rude to be judging them in the first place, secondly you're assuming things that you can't possibly know for sure just by looking at them, and thirdly, you're putting your desire to pass onto other people when it may not be there.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Basically, unless they ask you for help, it's not cool to comment on their inability to pass and how they can "fix" it.

I feel a similar way when encountering other MtF transwomen, regardless of how they're doing.

It's this reason that I tend just to be welcoming and make myself visible. If they want to talk, they're more than welcome. Usually they either ignore me, or realise I'm trans and then move away. Although after FFS, visibility may not be enough lol.

The only time I have approached a transwoman, was when she was talking with a friend quite audibly about passing and trans issues. And that was well received.

I notice other transwomen fairly frequently in Los Angeles.  It's true, some look better than others and many look much more convincingly feminine than myself.  Unless someone approaches me and asks for help/advice, I'll just smile and move along.   In my own head, I want to applaud them all for going out and being genuine, passing or not.  Sometimes I actually like serving as the middle finger that society deserves, and I'll bet plenty of others do as well. 

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade for having the intestinal fortitude to go out as they please.   If you don't ask for help, you're doing just fine in my book.

Jill said exactly what I was thinking. I totally agree.

While I work at passing, I am an actor, I like attention, and I do not particularly mind the occasional odd look.

I also appreciate help, but I respond poorly to it at times. If I am walking somewhere with a friend and she says, "Oh my God, girl, you need to work on your walk!" I may feel hurt by the comment, at least initially. Timing is everything. People do learn from their mistakes. Sometimes we need to have room to make them.

I'm all for being friendly. If you see a stranger who has something in common with you, whether it's an interest, taste in clothing, or having transitioned, nothing wrong with striking up a conversation.

I would never offer advice unless either they asked for it specifically or I really knew them well and knew they would want it.

Pretty sure I don't pass as yet but if another trans girl came up to me and was helpful and polite I wouldn't mind.

IMO striking up a conversation is cool just as you would with anyone else, BUT I wouldn't bring attention to their trans status unless they brought it up first. It could be potentially embarrasing to them and could see it as being clocked, ridiculed about their presentation, and judged . . . especially in public

Quote from: Danielle Emmalee on December 15, 2014, 11:05:08 PM
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say it's pretty rude to be judging them in the first place, secondly you're assuming things that you can't possibly know for sure just by looking at them, and thirdly, you're putting your desire to pass onto other people when it may not be there.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Basically, unless they ask you for help, it's not cool to comment on their inability to pass as whatever you think is obvious that they are trying to pass as and how they can "fix" it.

I'm going to have to agree with this.  If she wanted help, there's plenty of places she could get it.  Here, for example.  Or any one of the hundreds of places online where that kind of passing advice can be found.  There's things we can change (like learning how to put on makeup properly), and things we can't change (like the pace and extent of HRT); for the former, help is sometimes welcome, while for the latter, help is impossible.

Chances are, she knew she didn't pass.  Or just didn't care, which is so awesomely cool and brave to me.  Chances are she just wanted to go about her daily life without gender being brought up.

While your desire to help is admirable, without a crystal ball or mind-reading abilities, it would have been difficult to determine whether it would have been taken as intended or interpreted as a huge insult.  A friendly smile would have probably brightened her day.

Now, if she was obviously stressed and embarrassed by her appearance, cowering in a corner, hiding behind a rack of shoes etc, then perhaps I might have gone and asked her to help me find a pair of shoes in the right size, just to make contact, but not with the intent of offering advice; more to just start a conversation.

It might also have turned sour.  It's like asking a woman when her baby is due, only to realize that she's not pregnant but overweight.  Are you sure the girl in the store was even trying to be a girl?

Quote from: Jill F on December 15, 2014, 11:35:04 PMSometimes I actually like serving as the middle finger that society deserves, and I'll bet plenty of others do as well.

This attitude is what I love about so many trans people. :)

Danielle, I sure wish someone who isn't like you would offer me help in person. (Note: I don't live in a large city so help is less freely available.) Obviously you don't want someone to walk up and just start insulting you... but if they make it clear they're trans or experience with trans issues I'd be happy to have the help (and reminded that I still don't pass).

Thing is, you and your wife have a more finely tuned transdar which makes it easier to spot trans people when others are oblivious. Over the years I've noticed many trans women who have, by and large, been utterly ignored by the people around them. I think if someone came up to me in public, even if it was a well meaning transister, and started giving me passing tips, especially on my first few forays, I would have been mortified and never tried ever again. It's a really hard line to walk, we have experience and want to help, but I feel that as far as public encounters go unless it's extenuating circumstances or someone asks us for help it's best to let be.

i think that it would be great to help, but don't out her. i know having support is the best thing for us :)

I would welcome someone offering me assistance in that way if it was offered. The key is to approach me in an open non threatening way. "Excuse me, but I think I can help you pick the right items" or something to that effect.

A couple months ago I was in a video game store with my son, and the clerk helping us was trans.  Her presentation was perfect.  Great voice, good fashion sense, appropriate makeup.  The things that I picked up on were the things she couldn't change...hand size, wide shoulders, no hips.  And as someone else mentioned, most people probably would never have picked up on them.  I just know what to look for.

I really wanted to compliment her in some way.  And I realized that the best compliment I could give was to treat her like a normal girl working in a video game store.

Hi JLT1

This is a difficult question. I think if someone had approached me when I was just sarting out and said are you Trans I would have ben mortified as being read. But all help is useful. In retrospect I think what I would have done (and which I did last night) is  gone up to her and said Are you TG, because I am and then given her the Susans.org web site address and suggested that she might want to go on line and join  our "little group". Back to last night. I went to a meeting of the Melbourne Transgender Social Group group (Meets the third Tuesday of every month at Denns Bar in Northcote Melbourne) called Alphabet Soup and met up with about 30 people. There was also a bunch of people I had not met before and a group of young (Under 19) people both Transmen and Women, some of whom were only just coming to terms with being either gender fluid or TG. I encouraged everyone to use Susans.org.
Judith

Quote from: Skeptoid on December 16, 2014, 01:18:13 PM
Danielle, I sure wish someone who isn't like you would offer me help in person. (Note: I don't live in a large city so help is less freely available.) Obviously you don't want someone to walk up and just start insulting you... but if they make it clear they're trans or experience with trans issues I'd be happy to have the help (and reminded that I still don't pass).

Thanks for making this personal. :)

This actually happened to me a few months ago :(

I thought I was doing just great out at a bar and out of nowhere this "woman" who is trans commented on my hair (wig) and offered a few tips...

I was offended, its just not cool and while I knew she was well meaning it also RUINED my evening... My first thought was to get the hell out of there and thats exactly what I did...

There is just no good way to say "hey I can see your not a cis woman, Im not either but I can help you pass better ::)" best to just maybe give a wink or smile and leave it at that....

While I can understand the urge to help, because she was at work in a store close to Christmas, it would have been inappropriate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was recently at a Ren Fest and one of the clerks at one of the booths was trans. It was obvious why - extreme brow bossing and other strongly male facial features. When I saw her I also recognized her from prior years when she had been presenting male. I said nothing and simply allowed her to help my cisgender friend, who also said nothing.

If she had spoken up, I would have been happy to have a friendly conversation with her but that opportunity didn't arise. The shop didn't have anything in my size that appealed to me either, or I would have broken the ice by identifying myself first when asking for help trying things on, then letting her choose whether to follow that or not. But that wasn't going to happen in that specific shop.


I'll also state that she had a beautiful figure, was small, and with FFS likely was going to be a veritable knockout someday. :)

To me, it would feel pretty close to the same as I do when someone misgenders me. I'd be nice and thank the person for the advice, but internally I'd have those same thoughts running through my head as I do when I'm misgendered: "Who are you kidding? You're not fooling anyone. You don't pass at all, people are just being nice when they treat you as a girl. etc. etc.

And I try not to let my thoughts go there, but sometimes they just do. So considering how I feel I may react to such a situation, I really would not want to do that to another of my trans sisters. Even if I saw she needed help and I had the best of intentions in wanting to provide advice. Just because your intentions are good doesn't mean it's something that should be done.

That said, it's certainly ok to strike up a conversation and treat her like a woman, but I wouldn't say anything about her being trans unless she brings it up or is obviously transgender proud (Eg. wearing clothing or jewelry with trans* symbols).

Quote from: katiej on December 16, 2014, 03:16:12 PM
A couple months ago I was in a video game store with my son, and the clerk helping us was trans.  Her presentation was perfect.  Great voice, good fashion sense, appropriate makeup.  The things that I picked up on were the things she couldn't change...hand size, wide shoulders, no hips.  And as someone else mentioned, most people probably would never have picked up on them.  I just know what to look for.

I really wanted to compliment her in some way.  And I realized that the best compliment I could give was to treat her like a normal girl working in a video game store.

Well said! And, by the way, I know a cis-woman with broad shoulders, no hips, a slight forehead bossing and a big head - all very 'male' signifiers ... and one of Britain's biggest newspapers, with millions of readers every day, regularly uses her as a model because their editors think she's the perfect, glamorous embodiment of how their typical, middle-aged female readers would absolutely love to look. And she does, indeed, look fantastic in their photos!

I have had it happen to me. I was shopping when I noticed a transwoman about 30 feet in front of me - that is how badly she was "passing". Her voice, posture and wig were all wrong and she was talking about being trans to the sales assistant who was serving her.

I turned on my heel and did a smart 180.

She seemed happy enough so I let her stay happy. It was not my business to rain on her parade.

Add me to the list of those who say to leave well enough alone, or at best, if you must approach, treat her like you would a cis woman. Not just because you might ruin her day, although that's true... but you can never be 100% certain unless you *have* been told/seen her transition. :)

I and two other friends of mine have all been in situations where someone meeting us for the first time already knew one member of the couple was trans - and picked our wives! (In one case, telling the cis wife that she clearly had some brow bossing but a little FFS would fix her right up, which fortunately she thought was hilarious.)