Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I am reading a book called the Atlas of Anatomy and it reads,

"The clitoris is actually similar in structure to the penis, even to the extent of having a hood of labia equivalent to the foreskin and a small connecting band of tissue called the frenulum.

It is primarily an organ of sexual excitement. It is extreamely sensitive and when stimulated its spongy tissue fills with blood and becomes erect. Friction on the erect clitoris will usually lead to orgasm"

It must be great to be born female, you get to have a penis and a vagina at the same time. 2 for one deal.

Hmmm Interesting. Must be why it works when surgeons use penile skin to construct the clit during SRS.
So transwomen literally end up with a real clit! Cool.

Um, yeah, and they already technically have one prior to SRS. Everything comes from the same tissue... it's just a matter of how it's arranged. Honestly, it's those with male anatomy that come out ahead... the penis has far more areas of arousal than the vagina does. Ever hear of a man who can't orgasm? Plenty of women can't.

Quote from: asiangurliee on August 18, 2007, 02:00:43 PM
It must be great to be born female, you get to have a penis and a vagina at the same time. 2 for one deal.

Heh, well there's nothing stopping an anatomically female person having metoidioplasty (or just a clitoral release) and keeping the vagina.

Guess there's no reason why an anatomically male person couldn't have colon section vaginoplasty without losing their penis either...

um... except that you'd have all that pain, and... oh yeah, an ass for a vagina!

Quote from: DeanO on August 18, 2007, 03:12:07 PMEver hear of a man who can't orgasm? Plenty of women can't.

Or maybe their partners just don't know what the hell they're doing. >:D

Quote from: Andra on August 18, 2007, 03:18:39 PM
Heh, well there's nothing stopping an anatomically female person having metoidioplasty (or just a clitoral release) and keeping the vagina.

Except that if they're not on T, chances are the clitoris wouldn't be large enough to be visible with a meta or a release.

Dennis

other diffrence...  the penis has only about half the nerve receptors a clitoris does... but makes up for that in the amount of "contact area" available...

Quote from: Dennis on August 18, 2007, 07:54:36 PM

Quote from: Andra on August 18, 2007, 03:18:39 PM
Heh, well there's nothing stopping an anatomically female person having metoidioplasty (or just a clitoral release) and keeping the vagina.

Except that if they're not on T, chances are the clitoris wouldn't be large enough to be visible with a meta or a release.

Dennis

Yeah, I was thinking of somebody who was on T.

Biology 101. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_genital_development

QuoteA few weeks after fertilization, the initial appearance of the human fetal genitalia is basically feminine: a pair of urogenital folds with a small protuberance in the middle, and the urethra behind the protuberance.

In typical fetal development, the presence of the SRY gene causes the fetal gonads to become testes; the absence of it allows the gonads to continue to develop into ovaries. Thereafter, the development of the internal reproductive organs and the external genitalia is determined by hormones produced by fetal gonads (ovaries or testes) and the cells response to them.

If the fetus has testes, and if the testes produce testosterone, and if the cells of the genitals respond to the testosterone, the outer urogenital folds swell and fuse in the midline to produce the scrotum; the protuberance grows larger and straighter to form the penis; the inner urogenital swellings swell, wrap around the penis, and fuse in the midline to form the penile urethra.

If testosterone is not present, normal female development continues, with the development of a perineal urethra and the formation of a uterus, clitoris and vagina.

The Müllerian ducts, which are paired ducts of the embryo which empty into the cloaca, and which develop into the upper vagina, cervix, uterus and oviducts; in the male they disappear except for the vestigial vagina masculina and the appendix testis.

Because of their common origin in fetal anatomy, a number of male and female anatomical features are said to be homologous; for example, the clitoris and penis are homologous with one another, as are Skenes glands in females and the prostate gland in males.

Most of the time, the result of fetal genital development follows the stereotypical male or stereotypical female development path. However, in a small but significant minority of cases, the path of development follows an intermediate or other pathway, leading to what are called ambiguous genitalia, one condition of those known as intersexuality.

Quote from: Pia on August 19, 2007, 02:35:52 AM
Biology 101. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_genital_development

QuoteA few weeks after fertilization, the initial appearance of the human fetal genitalia is basically feminine: a pair of urogenital folds with a small protuberance in the middle, and the urethra behind the protuberance.

In typical fetal development, the presence of the SRY gene causes the fetal gonads to become testes; the absence of it allows the gonads to continue to develop into ovaries. Thereafter, the development of the internal reproductive organs and the external genitalia is determined by hormones produced by fetal gonads (ovaries or testes) and the cells response to them.

If the fetus has testes, and if the testes produce testosterone, and if the cells of the genitals respond to the testosterone, the outer urogenital folds swell and fuse in the midline to produce the scrotum; the protuberance grows larger and straighter to form the penis; the inner urogenital swellings swell, wrap around the penis, and fuse in the midline to form the penile urethra.

If testosterone is not present, normal female development continues, with the development of a perineal urethra and the formation of a uterus, clitoris and vagina.

The Müllerian ducts, which are paired ducts of the embryo which empty into the cloaca, and which develop into the upper vagina, cervix, uterus and oviducts; in the male they disappear except for the vestigial vagina masculina and the appendix testis.

Because of their common origin in fetal anatomy, a number of male and female anatomical features are said to be homologous; for example, the clitoris and penis are homologous with one another, as are Skenes glands in females and the prostate gland in males.

Most of the time, the result of fetal genital development follows the stereotypical male or stereotypical female development path. However, in a small but significant minority of cases, the path of development follows an intermediate or other pathway, leading to what are called ambiguous genitalia, one condition of those known as intersexuality.

Informative.

I believe so yes!

So basically... SRS is exchanging one penis for another penis?..
Like.. Changing winter tires for summer tires?... <--- or is that an analogy gone bad.....  8)

Quote from: no_id on August 22, 2007, 12:06:05 PM
So basically... SRS is exchanging one penis for another penis?..
Like.. Changing winter tires for summer tires?... <--- or is that an analogy gone bad.....  8)

Well... no.  It's still the same penis, just changed in size.

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 22, 2007, 01:08:46 PM

Quote from: no_id on August 22, 2007, 12:06:05 PM
So basically... SRS is exchanging one penis for another penis?..
Like.. Changing winter tires for summer tires?... <--- or is that an analogy gone bad.....  8)

Well... no.  It's still the same penis, just changed in size.

Winter and summer tires vary in size too though...
Nevertheless, *digs up another analogy*
Like... Blowing up a balloon or taking out the air; it's still the same balloon.  8)

Quote from: no_id on August 22, 2007, 01:14:32 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 22, 2007, 01:08:46 PM

Quote from: no_id on August 22, 2007, 12:06:05 PM
So basically... SRS is exchanging one penis for another penis?..
Like.. Changing winter tires for summer tires?... <--- or is that an analogy gone bad.....  8)

Well... no.  It's still the same penis, just changed in size.

Winter and summer tires vary in size too though...

All the same, I'd rather not have a winter penis with metal studs (the way most winter tires are hereabouts). :)

  Nfr

Well, human are all born female but during chemical reaction during birth it form the baby into male.
Just like every chemical reaction, mistake happen.
Weird is no one find way to change female to male but they did find way changing male to female.

Quote from: born2learn on August 29, 2007, 02:31:57 PM
Well, human are all born female but during chemical reaction during birth it form the baby into male.
Just like every chemical reaction, mistake happen.
Weird is no one find way to change female to male but they did find way changing male to female.

Born female?  sorry but that's not what I know.  all embryos are physically female during the first trimester of gestation.  They've got a clitoris, gonads and labia.  Each embryo none the less is imprinted with a chromosomal make up.  XX for girl, XY for boy and unindentified combinations that produce the various degrees of intersexuality.  When an embryo has an XX chromosomal make up, no testosterone is produced; thus her genitals dont evolve and remain female.  The clitoris remains a clitoris, the labia shapes itself around the vagina and the gonads become ovaries.  Yet if an embyo has an XY makeup, testosterone production happens and changes the embryo's genitals; thus the labia turns into the scrotum, the gonads into testicles and the clitoris into a penis.  Maleness (in the form of testosterone) is an addition.  Without testosterone, all embryos would remain female despite of chromosomal makeup.

Let's not even get into the hyenas...

http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA06/hyena.html

Quote from: Seshatneferw on August 22, 2007, 02:05:17 PM
All the same, I'd rather not have a winter penis with metal studs (the way most winter tires are hereabouts). :)

There are some primitive tribes where they cut slits in the penis and insert rocks then let the skin heal up over them.

Quote from: A~ on August 18, 2007, 03:18:39 PM
Heh, well there's nothing stopping an anatomically female person having metoidioplasty (or just a clitoral release) and keeping the vagina.

Guess there's no reason why an anatomically male person couldn't have colon section vaginoplasty without losing their penis either...

Can a surgeon construct a vagina opening using only scrotal skin? I mean the penis is still intact, and the urethra isn't changed. Is it possible to do that?

No, not really because there would result very little depth, maybe ~2".
Not enough depth for normal penetration intercourse.

Neo-vaginas can not really stretch in depth as natal ones do i.e. extend to 2x normal depth of ~ 4" to some 8" IF... aroused AND so required, um.

If that was no issue why have a vaginal channel at all?

Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on September 05, 2011, 03:42:55 AM
No, not really because there would result very little depth, maybe ~2".
Not enough depth for normal penetration intercourse.

Neo-vaginas can not really stretch in depth as natal ones do i.e. extend to 2x normal depth of ~ 4" to some 8" IF... aroused AND so required, um.

If that was no issue why have a vaginal channel at all?

Axelle

Can you please elaborate a little more? ARe you saying that if I intend to keep my penis with its covering skin, I won't have enough skin to construct a good depth vagina?

Is the skin or the erectile tissue of the penis issue here?

* Can you please elaborate a little more? [1] ARe you saying that if I intend to keep my penis with its covering skin, I won't have enough skin to construct a good depth vagina?

[2] Is the skin or the erectile tissue of the penis issue here? *

Ok, let me try to make this coherent.

1. Yes, exactly what I am saying.
Not enough material there will be. There are some tricks, to perforate the scrotal skin to enable to stretch it some (like 'stretch metal', if that means something) but it still will not do on its own.
Using penile AND scrotal graft skin (none perforated) my SRS Doc only 'suggests' 4"– 5" depth. That's conservative, yet depending how large you are, more could be a bonus.
Now, if your scrotum be half way down your thighs it might make a difference --- but who has?

2. Erectile tissue (inside blood vessels of the penis) will be removed well into the vaginal channel during SRS. Lest when being aroused it get engorged and block the vaginal entrance for penetration.
Almost like 'vaginismus' but caused not by a PC muscle spasm, rather by to much erectile tissue left at the entrance.

Is that tissue and issue? Absolutely, as outlined above it'd be blocking the vaginal channel if engorged and left in place for a functioning penis.

The erectile tissue (girth) of a normal clit is a fraction of that of a normal size penis. Yet a clit also goes well inside, and is ~ 14cm in total length, most people find that difficult to take on.

Axelle

I met a MTF who is a Dr and was able to talk her surgeon into moving her testes to a location internally. I would think she is not really a female totally because she has her testes with all that testosterone still running thru her body. but thats just me.


Modified SRS - There is also at least one transsexual woman who has undergone a modified SRS in order to keep her testicles (albeit internally). More information on this procedure is available on Anne Lawrence's web site.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yKHrY31Jd5AJ:www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/surgeryTS.htm+transsexual+has+sexchange+keeps+her+testes&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yKHrY31Jd5AJ:www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/surgeryTS.htm+transsexual+has+sexchange+keeps+her+testes&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Quote from: Amazon D on September 05, 2011, 11:59:05 AM
I met a MTF who is a Dr and was able to talk her surgeon into moving her testes to a location internally. I would think she is not really a female totally because she has her testes with all that testosterone still running thru her body. but thats just me.


Modified SRS - There is also at least one transsexual woman who has undergone a modified SRS in order to keep her testicles (albeit internally). More information on this procedure is available on Anne Lawrence's web site.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yKHrY31Jd5AJ:www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/surgeryTS.htm+transsexual+has+sexchange+keeps+her+testes&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yKHrY31Jd5AJ:www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/surgeryTS.htm+transsexual+has+sexchange+keeps+her+testes&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

I'm skeptical.  Part of the reason internal testes are removed in androgen-insensitive women when they are diagnosed is because of the risk of testicular cancer which cannot be assessed because of their location.

Oh wow I would do that. I remember that thread that talked about how removing Dmrt1 in testes would turn them into ovaries.

Maybe I should hang ten with my SRS, and do the 'mouse' thing...

If anything goes wrong this time, there be some hope your the next generation SRS.
Another wetware development?

Axelle

I am thinking about waiting a couple years to have my surgery too, depending on certain developments.  I don't think I could bear to wait more than 3 though, especially if these developments are not guaranteed.

In particular, these two are intriguing:
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/07/21/Researchers_Discover_Sex_Change_Gene/ (http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/07/21/Researchers_Discover_Sex_Change_Gene/)
http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=2133 (http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=2133)

Damn I already wasn't going to get the surgery for years. Looks like there's some advancements to look forward to. ^.^

Quote from: Axélle on September 05, 2011, 11:38:17 AM
* Can you please elaborate a little more? [1] ARe you saying that if I intend to keep my penis with its covering skin, I won't have enough skin to construct a good depth vagina?

[2] Is the skin or the erectile tissue of the penis issue here? *

Ok, let me try to make this coherent.

1. Yes, exactly what I am saying.
Not enough material there will be. There are some tricks, to perforate the scrotal skin to enable to stretch it some (like 'stretch metal', if that means something) but it still will not do on its own.
Using penile AND scrotal graft skin (none perforated) my SRS Doc only 'suggests' 4"– 5" depth. That's conservative, yet depending how large you are, more could be a bonus.
Now, if your scrotum be half way down your thighs it might make a difference --- but who has?

2. Erectile tissue (inside blood vessels of the penis) will be removed well into the vaginal channel during SRS. Lest when being aroused it get engorged and block the vaginal entrance for penetration.
Almost like 'vaginismus' but caused not by a PC muscle spasm, rather by to much erectile tissue left at the entrance.

Is that tissue and issue? Absolutely, as outlined above it'd be blocking the vaginal channel if engorged and left in place for a functioning penis.

The erectile tissue (girth) of a normal clit is a fraction of that of a normal size penis. Yet a clit also goes well inside, and is ~ 14cm in total length, most people find that difficult to take on.

Axelle

Thank you very much, Axelle

I hear that some surgeons use donor skins from other areas such as the thigh or abdomen to provide more material. Can that be enough to construct a reasonable depth for the vagina?

During the surgery, my testicles will be removed, so like in the case of prostate cancer patients, it will be very difficult for my penis to erect, won't it? And if it does erect, it won't stay for long.

Quote from: Rebekah with a K-A-H on September 05, 2011, 12:11:12 PM
I'm skeptical.  Part of the reason internal testes are removed in androgen-insensitive women when they are diagnosed is because of the risk of testicular cancer which cannot be assessed because of their location.

She didn't have them internally from birth. She had them MOVED too INTERNALLY during her GRS surgery to preserve her male sex drive and male orgasm..

Quote from: Amazon D on September 05, 2011, 01:58:15 PM
She didn't have them internally from birth. She had them MOVED too INTERNALLY during her GRS surgery to preserve her male sex drive and male orgasm..

Won't that counter the effect of estrogen?

Ugh, this reminds me of how close I was of developing as a male. All that was needed was Testosterone.

Hi,

If a male say . does not have enough skin for full depth makes little difference because skin from an other part of your body can be used.

Check up on us who are intersexed you may change your minds & in some case's =   do we all have a clitotis / penis . =  no. & for some not a lot,   if  any   its called a malfunction or deformed . or not at all. what ever it can be different.

& in some case's it's a wonder they lived & some have surgery as soon as they are born. other wise no pee weeing & or other details, rather messy .

...noeleena...

Even before transitioning I thought of my penis as an enlarged clitoris

Damn   all these threads on having BOTH or WANTING BOTH  made me dream last night i had both..  damn it was wild... it was like my old penis went thru the skin and was like a extra long FTM penis without the sheeth or urethra. I was rather large pre surgery and well it was very very long and pointy at the tip.   i have to stop coming to this site and reading all these HAVING BOTH threads  :o

Quote from: Amazon D on September 06, 2011, 06:00:37 AM
Damn   all these threads on having BOTH or WANTING BOTH  made me dream last night i had both..

Yeah.  You can tell you are too involved in something when you start dreaming about it.  You can tell that I watch way too much Star Trek because yesterday I had a dream where the Cardassians and the Borg were conspiring to overthrow the alternate universe.

Back to the originial question, how is the surgeon going to put a vagina in with the urethra still in the normal male position.  Also there is penis tissue that extends back inside the body where the vagina would need to go through.  The surgeon can get skin from several different areas to make the lining for the new vagina.

Quote from: mm on September 06, 2011, 11:20:47 AM
Back to the originial question, how is the surgeon going to put a vagina in with the urethra still in the normal male position.  Also there is penis tissue that extends back inside the body where the vagina would need to go through.  The surgeon can get skin from several different areas to make the lining for the new vagina.

Are you saying that virtually it is impossible to have both even though a person has abundant scrotal skin?
How the male urethra is and the presence of erectile tissue will block the vaginal canal, won't it?

If that is the reason a penis and vagina can't both present at the same time, the clitoris in a female doesn't have much erectile tissue like the penis, does it?

I remember seeing a FTM porn star's picture who has an enlarged clitoris that resembles a male penis in resting state. His name is Buck Angel. His vaginal orifice is still there.

In metoidioplasty, the urethra is rerouted into the enlarged clitoris, so the FTM person can urinate like a natal male does. I wonder if a natal male can have both features like a FTM.

Physically I don't see how it would be possible for a surgeon to construct a vagina in someone how was born with normal male parts and still keep the penis operational.  The urethra and penis inside their body where the vagina would go makes it impossible to construct the vagina. The amount of skin present to use as vaginal lining is not the problem.  For the ftm person the metoidioplasty procedure can be use to get them a small but useable penis to even pee with.  So the ftm person could have both - vagina/penis.

Quote from: mm on September 06, 2011, 02:51:12 PM
Physically I don't see how it would be possible for a surgeon to construct a vagina in someone how was born with normal male parts and still keep the penis operational.  The urethra and penis inside their body where the vagina would go makes it impossible to construct the vagina. The amount of skin present to use as vaginal lining is not the problem.  For the ftm person the metoidioplasty procedure can be use to get them a small but useable penis to even pee with.  So the ftm person could have both - vagina/penis.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F311499%2F530wm%2FP6000002-Male_and_Female_Reproductive_Organs-SPL.jpg&hash=25fcb234507699bf80e50554e8ab8d071b31c543)

I dunno, given the space between the rectum and urethra (internal portion) on the male figure, it might be feasible; the vaginal opening would be located behind the scrotum.  It doesn't look like the penis itself would necessarily be in the way, internally or externally, but I'm no surgeon.  The urethra might be made vulnerable, due to its proximity to the proposed vaginal opening, but this is just a guess based on what I've read about metoidioplasty (below).  Maybe it wouldn't be an issue since the urethra is already formed, with no anastomosis (join or 'weak point') that comes with meta urethral lengthening.  I've not heard of anyone who has had this type of surgery, but would be curious to know if it has been ever been attempted.

In metoidioplasty, some surgeons will perform urethral extension to the tip of the penis while keeping the vagina intact; however, they warn that doing so carries an increased risk of urethral complications versus doing urethral extension with vaginectomy.  Of course, there is Dr. Bowers, who performs ring meta and states directly on her site that she "prefer(s) the ring over other metas with urinary hook-up because it does NOT require vaginectomy" though it "nearly (but not completely) obliterates the vagina."  In speaking with guys who have had this done, it sounds as though she leaves a very small hole; dunno if penetration would be possible.

Quote from: Ender on September 06, 2011, 09:56:08 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencephoto.com%2Fimage%2F311499%2F530wm%2FP6000002-Male_and_Female_Reproductive_Organs-SPL.jpg&hash=25fcb234507699bf80e50554e8ab8d071b31c543)

I dunno, given the space between the rectum and urethra (internal portion) on the male figure, it might be feasible; the vaginal opening would be located behind the scrotum.  It doesn't look like the penis itself would necessarily be in the way, internally or externally, but I'm no surgeon.  The urethra might be made vulnerable, due to its proximity to the proposed vaginal opening, but this is just a guess based on what I've read about metoidioplasty (below).  Maybe it wouldn't be an issue since the urethra is already formed, with no anastomosis (join or 'weak point') that comes with meta urethral lengthening.  I've not heard of anyone who has had this type of surgery, but would be curious to know if it has been ever been attempted.

In metoidioplasty, some surgeons will perform urethral extension to the tip of the penis while keeping the vagina intact; however, they warn that doing so carries an increased risk of urethral complications versus doing urethral extension with vaginectomy.  Of course, there is Dr. Bowers, who performs ring meta and states directly on her site that she "prefer(s) the ring over other metas with urinary hook-up because it does NOT require vaginectomy" though it "nearly (but not completely) obliterates the vagina."  In speaking with guys who have had this done, it sounds as though she leaves a very small hole; dunno if penetration would be possible.

Thank you for posting both genders' anatomy for comparison.
I don't know how metoidioplasty affects urethra function in ftm. From anatomy alone, I also think that penetration would be very difficult if not impossible. From what I see, the penis itself is not the problem; the erectile tissue of the penis is.

Quote from: Amazon D on September 05, 2011, 01:58:15 PM
She didn't have them internally from birth. She had them MOVED too INTERNALLY during her GRS surgery to preserve her male sex drive and male orgasm..

And the risk of developing testicular cancer that would be undetectable would be equivalent, making the operation needlessly risky in the long run.