Susan's Place Transgender Resources

the images of women we see that we strive to look like are not real....and the reality is the unairbrushed versions are better. Why? Becase they are real.
http://jezebel.com/gossip/photoshop-of-horrors/heres-our-winner-redbook-shatters-our-faith-in-well-not-publishing-but-maybe-god-278919.php

Why would they take a picture of a very attractive woman and make her look like a barbie doll, with, as one commenter said, the arms of a 7 year old? Just weird. The retouched picture looks way worse than the real one.

Dennis

I agree Dennis

It is little wonder we have a mixed up perspective of womanhood in this fine land of ours!

They actually changed the shape of her head!  Those bastards!

Cindi

Well, unfotunately most women (not all obviously) would like to see the brushed  picture.  Why?  because most women (especially the younger generation) are really sensitive about nose to mouth lines, puffy eyes, and floppy arms!  :P

tink :icon_chick:

These days, some permanent fillers can take care of the nose to mouth line for not too much money; if they're not too severe, very severe ones are only partially fixable. But, as for everything else, get out of the sun if you want to look 25 at 40 (I'm 2 months away!). Still don't get people not using broad spectrum UVB UVA high SPF sunscreen (60 is the one I got) all the time. I prefer using self-tanners than looking like a shrivelled prune at 50 or before.

Its a pity but its what sells.  Argentina, my home country, has one of the highest statistics of anorexia nervosa and bulimia in the entire world.  Women  (ages 13 and over) are obssessed with looking dangerously thin.  On a recent survey, young girls (ages 18 - 30) averaged to weight 43.7 kilograms.  Not healthy if you ask me. 

One of the things I have a real problem with the MtoF community is their obsession with appearance.  When friends ask me what my transition is about and what are my goals I explain it like this.  When I was a man I had to act everyday that I was happy with the person I was.  I had to act like I enjoyed my role as a man in society.  I don't see it any easier trying to convince people that I am a woman in society.  We should not want to work that hard to maintain an image of femininity that is unrealistic.  It seems that two many of us get caught up in the idea of passing and being stealth that the roots of who we are is lost.  NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals.  I think our community as a whole needs to embrace this more than male or female.  Why do we try and force ourselves to black and white standards of a gendered society that we do not fit into.  Or ever will.  Someone will always know.  Someone will always figure it out.  We will always have to tell someone all about who we were.  We all need to stand more united and let the world know we are transsexual, post-op, pre-op, non-op  because no matter what we will always be transsexual.     

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals. 

Hmmmm...this is a very universal statement, and I disagree with it.  While I concur with you that I will never be a genetic female, I can assure you that I am a woman through and through.  I don't see myself as a transsexual, just as I don't see myself as "chicken pox" or any other illness for that matter.  Transsexualism is merely a label to indicate a medical condition; hence, it DOES NOT/CANNOT define me as a person or the essence of what/who I am, a woman.

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
I think our community as a whole needs to embrace this more than male or female.  Why do we try and force ourselves to black and white standards of a gendered society that we do not fit into.       

That is up to each individual.  Most of us transition and have SRS to live normal lives as men and women.  Why should some of us bear the "transsexual label" on our foreheads.  Do we think we are less than someone who was born with XX or XY chromosomes?  Are we only willing to eat the breadcrumbs society throws at us?  Excuse me but I don't think so.  I'm equal as any woman who was born with XX chromosomes and I demand to be treated, respected, and accepted as such.

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
  Someone will always know.  Someone will always figure it out.  We will always have to tell someone all about who we were. 

I have been living in stealth for many years (almost seventeen years to be exact)  no one knows, no one would ever suspect.  But true, there is always the possibility people could find out my history as there is always the chance I could die in a plane crash, win the lottery, or get raped on the street.  The odds are there; nothing is absolute, but if I'm going to worry about the "what if's", then my life will be totally ruined.

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
We all need to stand more united and let the world know we are transsexual, post-op, pre-op, non-op  because no matter what we will always be transsexual.     

Again, that is YOUR opinion and I respect it but don't agree with it.  I don't have anything against people who want to become activists; I am just not one of them.  I don't have any obligations with anyone in the TG community, and I am sure most TS folks don't either. Assuming otherwise is offensive in my view, for some of us have endured a lot of pain to be where we are without the help of others or any community.


tink :icon_chick:

I have to agree very much with Tink, Robbie. Except that I am not offended so much by your post, just have a different POV. A POV that in other respects is in line with Tink's.

Women are sometimes born with no vaginas. They are sometimes born with a variant chromosomal count or mosaic, they are sometimes born with a neurological intersex. Men are sometimes born with all of the above as well.

Reality is a really big and amorphous word. What I think encompasses Reality always seems to be conditioned by the perspective of that reality from where I happen to be standing. If you stand on Fire Island and I stand in Battery Park, are we both seeing the same view of the Statue of Liberty?

Just so. Some people see reality in chromosomes and some see it in sex organs (Ob/Gyns)  :laugh:, some see it it in neurological arrangement, and others in a line of mathematical equations that form an idea of a Unified Field in their view.

I would not say that you are wrong, just that your view of Reality does not seem to encompass the same perspective that mine does.

Like a lot women and men who were formerly TS, I don't have huge difficulties with the binary. My reality says that if there are those who do, then they are absolutely right in agitating against that binary. I WILL stand for them when they do so. I will not march with them or otherwise be open about my life for their sakes. But, I will demand that they be treated and looked on with the respect and compassion and given the dignity and opportunity that every human being should have.

For me, TS was a condition, a phase, a state that no longer encompasses me. Just like most tadpoles do not stop their lives at tadpole stage, but morph into what they 'truly' are, I have become the woman I am.

I recognize and support your desire and right to view matters differently. I just do not share your views, or your reality.


Nichole

I'm a woman. I will contest anyone who denies my womanhood, and that includes other trans people.

I'm a woman. TS is the route I took to get here. Like the Dixie Chicks sang, "Taking the long way around."

Transsexual is no more a label than homosexual, heterosexual, white, black, mother, and father.  I have yet to find a definition of the word transsexualism that calls it a medical condition.  Transsexual is who we are.  I believe it to be offensive to deny this.  Many of us disassociate ourselves with anything male and push ourselves to the extremes of womanhood to try and convince society we are who we say we are.  Why would you want to trade the box you lived in for most of you life for another one that does not fit either?  I pushed myself into that womanhood box and found that it was just as difficult a place to live as when I was a "man".  I find most of my MtoF friends to be very shallow and never figure out what it means to be transsexual.  The delicate balance between male and female.  Before you yell at me I use the word shallow to describe the way in which most of my friends go about the whole process.  Deciding that there is only one path to follow.  The path of shedding all male and being reborn as the woman they feel they truly are.  That is a fantasy we all make up (I did also at one time) to not have to deal with the challenges that society puts on us for being Trans.  Living in stealth is like a closeted homosexual. Believe me more people know than you think.  When I first came out to my wife and family I to thought it was all about shedding the male and being a womanly as possible.  Trying to hide the fact that I was a man from everyone.  I live in a very conservative area and have had a much easier time with people accepting me for the PERSON I am by just telling them point blank that I am trans.  I don't hide anything and people respect me more for that.   

Calling it a birth defect is another very common way of hiding from the fact we are trans :)

i must get a fresh cup of tea i will be back

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 01:14:01 PM
Transsexual is no more a label than homosexual, heterosexual, white, black, mother, and father.  I have yet to find a definition of the word transsexualism that calls it a medical condition.  Transsexual is who we are.  I believe it to be offensive to deny this.  Many of us disassociate ourselves with anything male and push ourselves to the extremes of womanhood to try and convince society we are who we say we are.  Why would you want to trade the box you lived in for most of you life for another one that does not fit either?  I pushed myself into that womanhood box and found that it was just as difficult a place to live as when I was a "man".  I find most of my MtoF friends to be very shallow and never figure out what it means to be transsexual.  The delicate balance between male and female.  Before you yell at me I use the word shallow to describe the way in which most of my friends go about the whole process.  Deciding that there is only one path to follow.  The path of shedding all male and being reborn as the woman they feel they truly are.  That is a fantasy we all make up (I did also at one time) to not have to deal with the challenges that society puts on us for being Trans.  Living in stealth is like a closeted homosexual. Believe me more people know than you think.  When I first came out to my wife and family I to thought it was all about shedding the male and being a womanly as possible.  Trying to hide the fact that I was a man from everyone.  I live in a very conservative area and have had a much easier time with people accepting me for the PERSON I am by just telling them point blank that I am trans.  I don't hide anything and people respect me more for that.   

this is the thing...um..what's your name?...ah yes robbie...if you wanna be known as ts, tattoo the ts label on your forehead or propagandize your ts status on cnn, that's your choice.  just don't expect others to follow you on your crusade.  i dont hide the fact i was born male; it is just my business and no one else's.  that is my choice. you wanna call it hiding? go right ahead, it wont change a thing, will it?  you wanna call it shallow?  go right ahead, will i change my views? never.  you see?  just keep your views to yourself darling because you are not only making a naive person (a.k.a. fool, get it?)  ;) of yourself but also breaking the site rules:

Quote9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

Quote from: robbieThe path of shedding all male and being reborn as the woman they feel they truly are.  That is a fantasy we all make up

if i thought my womanhood were a fantasy, i'd be very concerned and desperately seeking a second, third or fourth opinions on my so called gender issues...

:D

I dare anyone to tell me I am not a woman. Transsexual has been an avenue to where I am going. I will be a  complete woman in 1 1/2 months. I do consider my self there now.But society does not. I have cried enough tears for thousands. Please let it end!!! When does the hurt stop. Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please don't lable all of us in the same boat.

When does the lable making stop. Please stop!We are people of Gods world.

Lets try to help one another. This should be our main concern. We are what we are.
I came to this sit to gain wisdom

Deb

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 22, 2007, 02:06:59 PM

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 01:42:25 PM
Calling it a birth defect is another very common way of hiding from the fact we are trans :)

i disagree.  i was born in the wrong body.  or with the wrong mind.  either way, there is no synchronization between the two.  ergo, there is a defect.

That sounds about right. Now, just what we have to do to deal with this defect varies a lot, and the route one ends up taking depends on not just the severity of the defect but also on things like culture and upbringing. Also, gender and sex can be intertwined in various ways.

Some, like Tink and Nichole, consider themselves women, with a transsexual phase in their history. I see no reason to contest this view: they have changed both their gender expression and sex to match the identity. Close to the other end of the spectrum, my way to cope with the discrepancy was to lose faith in the binary gender system: by now, there's no way I can become either a man or a woman in terms of gender, and my sex is at this point just a birth defect, pretty much like the deformed arm one of my coworkers has. I don't really have issues with my gender any more, just with my body image, which I suppose means I've forfeited my right to the label of transsexual. This, in turn, means I must disagree with Robbie, even though I sort of see where she stands.

  Nfr

Quote from: debisl on August 22, 2007, 02:29:07 PM
I dare anyone to tell me I am not a woman. Transsexual has been an avenue to where I am going. I will be a  complete woman in 1 1/2 months.

i dare you!  >:D kidding!  :D  good luck on your surgery.  mine is next week, on the 29th, just days from now... ;)

Katia as always my best wishes for you. You deserve what you have strived for all of your life. Please send me a PM after you go through the procedure to calm my nerves. I am a nervous wreck.

Deb

I am not forcing my opinion on anyone by discussing it.  Just as you are not forcing yours on me by discussing it.  I have not questioned anyone's womanhood.  What I have questioned is the way we arrived at our ideals of womanhood.  And the imbalance I see in our community.  Which is what I thought this thread was about. If I have offended any of you I am sorry.  I just want to have a discussion about different points of view. That's all, we are all equal here.    And  Katia I do have it tattooed on my body for all to see. ;)

Quote from: Tink on August 21, 2007, 06:19:49 PM

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals. 

Hmmmm...this is a very universal statement, and I disagree with it.  While I concur with you that I will never be a genetic female, I can assure you that I am a woman through and through.  I don't see myself as a transsexual, just as I don't see myself as "chicken pox" or any other illness for that matter.  Transsexualism is merely a label to indicate a medical condition; hence, it DOES NOT/CANNOT define me as a person or the essence of what/who I am, a woman.

I agree. A man with MS is not his disease. He's not called a  'multiple sclerosis', but a man.

Nero!!!!!!

Thank You!!!!!!!!!

Deb

Give me a second here I am working on this whole birth defect argument.  If anyone is curious I am a student of philosophy and logic so that is where all this comes from.

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 01:14:01 PM
Transsexual is no more a label than homosexual, heterosexual, white, black, mother, and father.  I have yet to find a definition of the word transsexualism that calls it a medical condition.  Transsexual is who we are.  I believe it to be offensive to deny this.  Many of us disassociate ourselves with anything male and push ourselves to the extremes of womanhood to try and convince society we are who we say we are.  Why would you want to trade the box you lived in for most of you life for another one that does not fit either?  I pushed myself into that womanhood box and found that it was just as difficult a place to live as when I was a "man".  I find most of my MtoF friends to be very shallow and never figure out what it means to be transsexual.  The delicate balance between male and female.  Before you yell at me I use the word shallow to describe the way in which most of my friends go about the whole process.  Deciding that there is only one path to follow.  The path of shedding all male and being reborn as the woman they feel they truly are.  That is a fantasy we all make up (I did also at one time) to not have to deal with the challenges that society puts on us for being Trans.  Living in stealth is like a closeted homosexual. Believe me more people know than you think.  When I first came out to my wife and family I to thought it was all about shedding the male and being a womanly as possible.  Trying to hide the fact that I was a man from everyone.  I live in a very conservative area and have had a much easier time with people accepting me for the PERSON I am by just telling them point blank that I am trans.  I don't hide anything and people respect me more for that.   

Robbie, you may have transitioned, but you sound more genderqueer than transsexual. Transsexuals are individuals born in the body of the sex opposite their gender.
There's nothing wrong with being genderqueer or against the binary, but you must understand that transsexuals are men and women, period. Not 'other'.

Really you call him a man with MS,   I.E. you know that guy with MS that works at the coffee shop. Also, Robbie the transsexual that works at the coffee shop.  Or Jamie and Liz the two lesbians that work at the coffee shop.  And Robbie she use to be a guy, you know she works at the coffee shop. That is a more realistic way that people are identified in society.   :)

QuoteRobbie, you may have transitioned, but you sound more genderqueer than transsexual.

A person could be both TS and genderqueer, and have an awareness of gender outside the binary. Kate Bornstein and Riki Anne Wilchins come to mind of TS who fit this description.

Zythyra

Nero,

   I disagree, I am going to respond, but first  I have to think of a different way to take my argument to not sound militant 
:)

   We inflict a real injustice upon ourselves by letting society tell us we have to hide who we are and live up to what their standards of male and female are.  Which is what most of us do.  There is nothing ugly or wrong with any form of the word of label transsexual.  Embrace it, love it, it is who we are.  Just like soccer moms, suburbanites, hetro-nerds.  Yes, all of these are labels and labels are something we will never get rid of.  What is at question here is why do we choose the labels we do?  What outside influences push us to the labels we choose?  Again, I have questioned no ones womanhood.  I am just as much woman as all of you.  I choose not to be seen totally as a woman because I am not.  I spent the first thirty years of my life as a man.  That just does not go away because I don't like it.  Parts of that are me and will forever be me.  If do to some act of god I had to go back (I'm pre-op) I would forever embrace the parts of me that are woman.  It is absurd to use the examples "I am a woman trapped in the body of a man"  or "I was born with a birth defect and that birth defect is a penis"  I know because I used them with colleague of mine, only to have them shot down again and again.  This is how we sat and worked though it.  First, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.  Second, we all have strong urges to be perceived as the opposite gender.  All of us will go to just about any extent to achieve this.  We come up with the folktale of being a woman trapped in the body of man so we don't have to look at ourselves and see we are just indulging in our urges (which there is nothing wrong with) and to better explain it to society.  All of us try and turn ourselves into martyrs and talk about how hard our lives where because we were pigeon holed and forced to live by the black and white standards of society and no one truly understands us.  Instead of just saying that from the time I can remember I have felt a desire to live as a woman and now I am going to.  The problem with these folktales is we lie, deceive and cheapen ourselves because the media and doctors have told us this is how we are suppose to feel.  Why do we all describe ourselves in the same way just as we would all do a learned math problem the same way?  I am not saying that being Trans is learned.  I am saying that the way that most of us express it is learned and is taught to us by people that want to put into boxes you don't belong in.  Everyone answer this question truthfully.  In the beginning if you could have undergone a simple procedure in you head to fix all of this and make it go away would you?   If I am being militant again tell me.  I do respect everyone here because we have all been on the same path at some point. Just because our views are different does not mean either one of us is wrong or less of a person. 


Nicole W.

   I listen to all views and respect all people no matter what.  Off this thread nothing here matters its just a discussion for fun.   :)

omg, not another LABEL debate!  ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!

sorry.  i shouldn't sound so jaded.  Carry on!

hugs & smiles
Emelye

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PMFirst, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.

Speak for yourself. I don't buy the argument that my chromosomes or my dick determine my gender or my identity. That's an argument used by transphobes like Janice Raymond, and I just think it's so sad to see a trans person brainwashed into thinking that way. My gender derives from my inner sense of self. I'm a woman who unfortunately got an XY body, but I'll be damned if I let that get in the way of claiming my womanhood. It doesn't get the final say about who I am--I do. "Trapped" in a male body? Screw that BS. I'm not trapped--I'm liberated. Besides, my brain is female, so calling my body "male" is not the whole truth. I don't subscribe to Cartesian dualism of the mind and body, I think of them as two aspects of a single whole. And with my breasts and other effects of estrogen, it's becoming less and less accurate to call it male.

By the way, I'm not stealth, not even interested in going stealth, I enjoy being out and openly transsexual in the present day when so much liberated space has opened up for our tribe. For me, transsexual is an adjective. I'm a transsexual woman like I'm an Italian woman and a Pagan woman. The noun that identifies who I am is woman (plus any number of adjectives, one of which by a strange twist of fate just happens to be "transsexual"). Like I said, I'm not letting that get in the way of being who I am. Womanhood suits me just fine, thank you. If it doesn't suit you, fine, be who you are. I'm being who I am. I hope for a world where everyone can just be who they are without screwing around with other people's identities.

And I'm starting to get kind of fed up with the Bornsteins of this tribe who keep telling me I'm not "really" a woman just because I was born with a dick. Speak for yourselves. You don't speak for me. I'm a woman to my dying breath. The more I hear these arguments, the more tainted with transphobia they sound.

Quote from: Katia on August 22, 2007, 02:13:54 PM
if i thought my womanhood were a fantasy, i'd be very concerned and desperately seeking a second, third or fourth opinions on my so called gender issues...

:D

I've got to agree with you Katia.  Transitioning from male to female is not about being cute, wearing silky tutus or load your face with makeup.  This is serious and goes beyond being a fantasy.  Fantasy is a delusion.  My womanhood isn't.  If some here believe their womanhood is a delusion, seek real professional help straight away and don't mix me up with your off the wall ideas.  Thank you kindly.

The majority of women are dissatisfied with their appearance. I guess I'm no exception to that.

On the subject of airbrushed photos, I found it highly amusing to hear that when footballer's wife Victoria Beckham moved from the UK to California recently she asked if the photo for her drivers license, which was a little unflattering, could be airbrushed possibly! The answer from a clerk with no sense of humor was of course NO!

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PM
It is absurd to use the examples "I am a woman trapped in the body of a man"  or "I was born with a birth defect and that birth defect is a penis"  I know because I used them with colleague of mine, only to have them shot down again and again.

I wouldn't call them absurd. Yes, the first one is a metaphor, and like all metaphors it doesn't fit reality perfectly. Still, in some cases and for some people it is a useful one for describing how one feels. The second one can be a bit closer to reality, although the birth defect is not the penis as such but rather the discrepancy between one's body and mind. That really is congenital, at least according to a few studies, and it is not altogether unreasonable to consider it a defect.

Quite a bit of the confusion here revolves around the definitions of man and woman, partly with respect to the distinction between gender and sex, but also related to some more fine-tuned differences that are mostly not apparent in the cisgendered majority. Yes, on a chromosomal level you will always be male (unless some very major technological breakthroughs happen during our lifetime :) ); but that doesn't necessarily mean that your physical sex can never be reasonably considered female. In addition to this, your physical sex does not have to have anything to do with your gender, either in the sense of gender expression or gender identity.

I guess the point is that even though you are right that the binary gender system does not adequately describe many of us, it still is possible to classify a different group of many of us pretty unambiguously as either male or female. As you've seen by now, some members of this latter group tend to get rather annoyed if they see someone contesting their gender. ;)  Can't blame them either, really.

  Nfr

Oh dear, I was just posting something about the ignorance of some peeps in regards to gender and sexual attraction.  I'm dumbfounded at the magnitude of their ignorance.  I don't hide from my transsexual history, I just follow brilliant minds like Einstein's.

"My life is a simple thing that would interest no one.
It is a known fact that I was born and that is all that is necessary."

Albert Einstein.

Or filling in forms,
Date of Birth: ✓
Sex: only with the right person

  Nfr

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PM
     First, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.  . 

Oh I believe it and accept it wholeheartedly.  Just don't ever imply that I'm like you or that I feel like you do, because I'm not and I don't.

On one have any fear.  I have not gone anywhere.  Spent most of the day with friends at the coffee shop discussing things over endless cups of coffee and tea.  If any of you is ever in Lancaster stop and see me.  I am here now for another full day of writing.  But before I just start on my own does anyone have in specific areas from the last two days they want to go over in more detail.     :)

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PM
   We inflict a real injustice upon ourselves by letting society tell us we have to hide who we are and live up to what their standards of male and female are.  Which is what most of us do.  There is nothing ugly or wrong with any form of the word of label transsexual.  Embrace it, love it, it is who we are.  Just like soccer moms, suburbanites, hetro-nerds.  Yes, all of these are labels and labels are something we will never get rid of.  What is at question here is why do we choose the labels we do?  What outside influences push us to the labels we choose?  Again, I have questioned no ones womanhood.  I am just as much woman as all of you.  I choose not to be seen totally as a woman because I am not.  I spent the first thirty years of my life as a man.  That just does not go away because I don't like it.  Parts of that are me and will forever be me.  If do to some act of god I had to go back (I'm pre-op) I would forever embrace the parts of me that are woman.  It is absurd to use the examples "I am a woman trapped in the body of a man"  or "I was born with a birth defect and that birth defect is a penis"  I know because I used them with colleague of mine, only to have them shot down again and again.  This is how we sat and worked though it.  First, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.  Second, we all have strong urges to be perceived as the opposite gender.  All of us will go to just about any extent to achieve this.  We come up with the folktale of being a woman trapped in the body of man so we don't have to look at ourselves and see we are just indulging in our urges (which there is nothing wrong with) and to better explain it to society.  All of us try and turn ourselves into martyrs and talk about how hard our lives where because we were pigeon holed and forced to live by the black and white standards of society and no one truly understands us.  Instead of just saying that from the time I can remember I have felt a desire to live as a woman and now I am going to.  The problem with these folktales is we lie, deceive and cheapen ourselves because the media and doctors have told us this is how we are suppose to feel.  Why do we all describe ourselves in the same way just as we would all do a learned math problem the same way?  I am not saying that being Trans is learned.  I am saying that the way that most of us express it is learned and is taught to us by people that want to put into boxes you don't belong in.  Everyone answer this question truthfully.  In the beginning if you could have undergone a simple procedure in you head to fix all of this and make it go away would you?   If I am being militant again tell me.  I do respect everyone here because we have all been on the same path at some point. Just because our views are different does not mean either one of us is wrong or less of a person. 


Nicole W.

   I listen to all views and respect all people no matter what.  Off this thread nothing here matters its just a discussion for fun.   :)

Before I respond, a request please. Could you break up your posts into paragraphs? I found this hard on the eyes, thanks.

'Born in the wrong body' is a metaphor, a way of trying to describe our feelings. Call it a birth defect or what have you, but it is a condition. 'Transsexual' is not a gender. There is no shame in being transsexual, but it is not a gender.
Nobody here is denying their transsexuality, so I don't see where you're coming from with this.
A transsexual female who calls herself simply a woman instead of transsexual is not necessarily denying or ashamed of her past. Wearing the body of a man does not a man make.
Nobody said anything about shame or denial of their history, so again, what exactly is your point?

Quote from: Nero on August 23, 2007, 04:11:27 PMWearing the body of a man does not a man make.

'Cause as they say "Clothes make the man" LOL just kidding

Quote from: Nero on August 23, 2007, 04:11:27 PM

'Born in the wrong body' is a metaphor, a way of trying to describe our feelings. Call it a birth defect or what have you, but it is a condition. 'Transsexual' is not a gender. There is no shame in being transsexual, but it is not a gender.
Nobody here is denying their transsexuality, so I don't see where you're coming from with this.
A transsexual female who calls herself simply a woman instead of transsexual is not necessarily denying or ashamed of her past. Wearing the body of a man does not a man make.
Nobody said anything about shame or denial of their history, so again, what exactly is your point?

Thank you very much for providing the translation service, Nero.  ;)

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Jeannette on August 23, 2007, 07:27:58 AM

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PM
     First, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.  . 

Oh I believe it and accept it wholeheartedly.  Just don't ever imply that I'm like you or that I feel like you do, because I'm not and I don't.

Jeannette is right.
Robbie, I have no problem at all accepting and even paying homage to your self-definition. But I do contest that your personal insight into your own identity can be generalized to apply to everyone. I hope that isn't what you meant to imply.

When I first read Gender Outlaw by Kate Bornstein a couple years ago, I found myself agreeing with her on many points, sharing several feelings and experiences with her, and in general seduced by her wicked wit. However, I could never assent to her statement "I'm probably not a woman." She rejects being lesbian too, although she dates women, and gives the reason that she doesn't feel she fits into any lesbian circles. I had problems with her denial of womanhood, since even after I tried real hard to see things from her point of view, I was never able to identify as anything but a woman. And the lesbian circles I knew welcomed me in and made me feel right at home. Lesbian identity just felt so right to me. So Kate and I were not on the same page of music.

Once I got to My Gender Workbook, it became clearer to me how her understanding of gender diverges quite sharply from mine. She's out to smash the binary and thinks that no one ought to identify with any gender at all. Well, that just does not work for me or help me in my personal struggle. So her wit is looking less droll to me now, and I'm getting tired of her anti-gender shtick. I support her personal identification of herself, but I think she got on the wrong track about smashing everyone else's gender. This is to explain why I took issue with Robbie's assertions, which reminded me of Kate's but if I'm mistaken about this, Robbie, I apologize.

Here's one for philosophers:
If a = b
and a != c
does that necessarily mean b != c?

On the original topic, I'm the kind that would want to perfect the female me as much as I could. When I hear comments like "I'm fine with a B cup" or "150 lbs is great", I'm like, no. I'll have arms the size of paper towel tubes one day and a rack that will attact attention. I'll also have a face that will make people stare and think "gorgeous, was she on the cover of a magazine?"  :o . I won't sell myself short. I've seen alot of women who were perfectly flawless in real life, not airbrushed. Of course that makes me extremely jealous and I have to silently burn up in my own sorrow.  :(

Overall, all my life, I've drawn inspiration from the great ones. If I want to look like a photoshopped bimbo or a near perfect clubber I saw with my own eyes, so be it.

Lol :laugh: Chromosomes don't make you who you are.  They only imprint a genetic code.  Here I am, a trans woman born with an intersex  condition known as gonadal mosaicism.  Does that make me a super woman for having the two XX's or am I just a "man" in your view for having the doomed Y chromosome?  Lol, it is a bunch of tripe if you wanna hear my opinion and I don't buy it.  I find it demeaning that someone considers me a man for having a Y chromosome.  it's stupid and ignorant.  Have you got any idea of what you are talking about?  complicated situation, innit?

Why some peeps want to be recognized as trans?  It's my experience that such trans peeps don't pass as women most of the time so the only way to gain respect is by having their voices heard through activist groups.  Have you ever seen a  passable trans woman who is an activist?  There are some in the community here in Germany.  But they were not always out.  They lived stealth lives for many years.  Had FFS & GRS and lived normal lives for a long time until one day they decided to help the community.  They are the exception not the majority.  The majority of activist trans women don't pass as females (don't want to disrespect anyone.  I'm only pointing out my why's).  the only way they can ask for acceptance is to get together and form activist groups.  that's the reality.  Almost all trans women that pass disappear into society or bond perfectly to their lives w/o any problems.  that's also a reality. Expecting one group to join the other is only a fantasy.  It can happen but it's very unlikely.  I'm sorry but that's how life is. 

I'm not into science or medicine - genes and chromosomes don't mean alot to me, but some advice I was once told was that what you have between your legs doesn't necessarily make you a man or a woman. When I'm feeling bad about myself I cling to that.

Quote from: Yvonne on August 24, 2007, 02:41:53 AM
Have you ever seen a  passable trans woman who is an activist?

Yes, absolutely. For example: Mara Keisling, director of the National Center for Transgender Equality here in the USA. She isn't a glamour babe, but she looks exactly like what she is--a serious professional woman.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nctequality.org%2Fimages%2Fkeislingmara%2520in%2520blade%2520blog.jpg&hash=514f6bd5d9306634e640f75fc07224dd7922b95b)

And regardless of my criticism of Kate Bornstein's ideas, as to looks she passes perfectly.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.timeout.com%2Fnewyork%2Fexport_images%2F560%2F560.x231.gay.katemic.jpg&hash=396b60e8d943f0bd22cc9b56790007f321c1a79a)
As long as she keeps her wig on, because underneath it she's quite bald. (meow)

Neither of these ladies has a stealth history as far as I know. They've always been out activists.

i don't agree with yvonne on most subjects, yet i have to agree with her here.  i haven't seen any passable ts woman who is an activist either.  my idea of [passable] is someone that [cannot] be detected as being ts. (e.g., a combination of physical appearance, voice and demeanor).
imho mara and kate pass more or less ok , yet when they open their mouths, everyone knows they are ts.  no offense to anyone.  i'm just expressing my opinion.  based on my idea of passability, i'm sorry to say but they don't pass.

QuoteWhy some peeps want to be recognized as trans?  It's my experience that such trans peeps don't pass as women most of the time so the only way to gain respect is by having their voices heard through activist groups.  Have you ever seen a  passable trans woman who is an activist? 

Last time I checked, the qualifications for being an activist didn't require being able to pass. What is necessary for that job is an ability to articulate issues clearly, and in a way that might get other people to support your cause, be it transgender equality, global warming, etc. Also, not everyone is concerned with passing, or has the same standards as to how to pass, and that is a personal choice.

I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans. ;D If someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Zythyra

I have not meant to generalize all into my self-definition.  The only reason I wrote it the way I did was to get people to think out side of the norms.  But now it is time to get back on the soap box.  Let's start out with a disclaimer.  In no way shape or form am I trying to offend, generalize, inflame, upset, make cry, cheapen, and make just plain disgruntle.  I did take a break yesterday and did not write much anywhere.  Over indulgence on Wednesday night left the mind cloudy. 

The area in (paragraphs just for you Nero) which I feel the need to concentrate today is in the whole idea of passing, pass ability; activists don't pass or cannot pass.  First off this whole idea of passing is just what I am talking about.  Why?  Why do we put so much emphasis on passing?  Why is that (passing) the mark of a successful transsexual in most of our eyes?    Why is appearance so important?  ** Disclaimer—when I use the word spiritual it is in on way a reference to god** shouldn't it be more of a spiritual journey?  A journey of self discovery.  I have seen to many transsexuals jump on the super highway to GRS after coming out.  The super highway that does not lend time for pit stops to sit and reflect on all that is going on around us and figure out where many of us really belong. 

Being Trans is so much more that just passing.  So much more that HRT, boobs and a nice butt.  So much more that GRS and FFS.  When I have used the word shallow in previous posts this is the kind of stuff I am tailing about.  **disclaimer—I am not calling anyone shallow I think some of the ideas we have about being trans are shallow mine included**   My ability to pass or not pass makes no difference to me ( and to the skeptics I pass with out a problem when I want to :).  All I am trying to do here is open honest dialogue about who we are and who we perceive we are.

I love what Zythrya wrote

I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans.  if someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Nero—what she wrote is the exact point I am getting at.  I think as a whole we focus too much on perceptions. 

**disclaimer**-- all this is just my opinion I want to discuss it in a civil manner with everyone

Quote from: Robbie on August 24, 2007, 10:41:16 AM
I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans.  if someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Nero—what she wrote is the exact point I am getting at.  I think as a whole we focus too much on perceptions. 

The problem is, if someone identifies as a woman, then being perceived and treated as a transsexual can be very heartbreaking and frustrating.

I go back and forth on this myself. I appreciate the beauty and poetry of the "Just Being Me regardless of how people see me" philosophy. It reveals a wonderful degree of self-acceptance, one that I struggle to find and hold onto.

But I also can't deny that I don't exist in a vaccuum. Who I am is also partly created through my relationships with other people. I get that you can't spend your life trying to please everyone. I get that people are going to think me ugly, arrogant, mean-spirited, etc. at times. I can deal with that.

But having everyone treating me as if I'm a man... that's different somehow. Then I'm really NOT Kate, except in my own head. I get that I have to START there, and be Kate inside, and show her to the world (and that SO many people seem to get that backwards, trying to become a woman through surgeries and HRT), but if the world doesn't reflect Kate back to me, then the system collapses. There's no validation, no *experience* of being Kate. Just an empty proclamation, lost and dying in the wind.

~Kate~

My God Robbie!
Do we have to put a label on all of us? Transsexual, transgender, gay, lesbian, black, white. We are all Gods children. He dosen't make mistakes. He just has a little longer road for some of us. Do any of us really care for lables??? Why is it so important for some to have a deffenition as to what we are.

I will tell anyone right now and forever "I AM A WOMAN" pure and simple!

This subject really is very offensive to those of us who have been striving to become what we so much deserve to be. A person weather it is female or male.

Deb

Quote from: debisl on August 24, 2007, 11:13:18 AM
We are all Gods children. He dosen't make mistakes. He just has a little longer road for some of us. Do any of us really care for lables??? Why is it so important for some to have a deffenition as to what we are.
I will tell anyone right now and forever "I AM A WOMAN" pure and simple!
This subject really is very offensive to those of us who have been striving to become what we so much deserve to be. A person weather it is female or male.
Deb

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg256.echo.cx%2Fimg256%2F1869%2Fditto8pi.gif&hash=8930fcc86bdb191540b90f5b36740bd036b39083)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

The purpose of this forum is to build confidence. Not to tear down someones life long dearms. I never wish to ever be reffered to as a male. Can't you see that!! Can't you?? Lets try hard to build confidence for one another. Aren't most of us here to help?

I know the road is much shorter for me than some of you sweet wonderful folks out there. I owe so much to some of the people here at susans that I just want to repay the debt with something. If there is ever something, some sort of advice, or encouragement I can give please don't be afraid to ask. My god I asked a lot of questions too.

I will promiss you this I do not judge and I do not label, unless you want a label and I will be glad to oblige.

Be Kind
Deb

Kate—that is by fare one of the best posts I have read in days. 

I do have some of the same frustrations—many of my friends that new me before will not let go of the fact that I am not just a man anymore. It is dishearting to be idendified as just male.   I do want to be seen as a woman in society.  But on my terms.   I really try not to associate with people that do not recognize me at trans. Or try not to understand anything that I have go though with transitioning and what I have to continue to go though.  What I have found is the more people I let in on what my live is all about the more support I find I have.  The more that people accept me for just being the person I am. 

One more thing Kate—isn't the validation and experience of being Kate all with in you.  The only person that lets you not be and feel Kate is you.  And remember you are Kate everyday, every second, every breath.  No one can take that from you, no one can invalidate that.    And if someone wants to invalidate or otherwise hurt you centering on your gender then they are obviously people you don't need or want in you life.  And if strangers do this to you *$#% them.  One of the things I live by is all is every person has something about their lives they can be judged for.  Don't chuck bricks at me until you look at yourself.


Posted on: August 24, 2007, 12:31:30 PM

---

Deb,

Go back and re-read everything a little closer.  Isn't all of us just being people no matter what all I have been talking about.  Maybe offended is what you need to be because it makes people think.  Which is all I am trying to do here.


Posted on: August 24, 2007, 12:37:56 PM

---

There is nothing about being trans that is suppose to be some fluffy, lets all set around the camp fire and make each other feel good.  There is a ton on nitty gritty crap that needs to be sorted through.  And it really worries me that number of my Trans friends that have gone all the way and still get offended, upset, and try to ignore the very questions topics I am bring up here.  None of us can live in a place with the attitude "if I just pass and look pretty it will all be ok and no one will ever question me and I will be the woman I feel I am inside."  Our journey is so much deeper that.  And the people that don't recognize offend me which is why I am so passionate about it.  Because they make all Trans people feel and look, trivial and cheap.

Oh bloody hell.  Time to press the ignore button again.  ::) Amazing, amazing, amazing.

QuoteThe problem is, if someone identifies as a woman, then being perceived and treated as a transsexual can be very heartbreaking and frustrating.

Great post Kate! One of the problems we all deal with is societal perception of trans as other, and of transwomen or transmen being perceived as somehow less than natal women or men. And it is all to easy to internalize this feeling. Imagine if this stigma weren't attached, how much easier it would be to be who we are, without having to hide our trans histories.

Zythyra

Everyone here most likely has an adgenda, dream, whatever. I have nothing but respect for you Robbie. Your adgenda is yours. Not mine! I do not need a label other than FEMALE. It is my dream! Please don't ruin it for me.

What you are saying might be the absolute truth, but not in my heart and mind.

Robbie I don't meant to argue with you at all and please forgive if it has come across like that. You can take this to the bank! I am a woman

Deb

Quote from: debisl on August 24, 2007, 12:05:33 PM
Everyone here most likely has an adgenda

Yes, I have noticed.  :icon_no:

No one here is trying to steel the dream of anybody.  Deb you are a woman I have never denied you that.  Nor have I denied anyone else who or what they are.  No one here has been forced into a label by me.  And some of you are right I do have an agenda.  My agenda is to ensure, as many of us as possible think and understand everything about whom and what we are.  No one can deny that people don't have that good of an opinion of us or the way we live our lives. 

This is the very same problem homosexuals had in the seventies and eighties.  But they did not stomp their feet and puff out their lower lip and scream I'm gay and you cannot take that from me.  They brought themselves into the mainstream by knowledge.  They informed people exactly what their lives where about.  Exactly how they live and why. 

Here is another question we all need to answer truthfully.  Why are you doing this and what is your life like?  What do you hope to gain by switching genders? 

How many understand enough about what transsexualism really is.  Would you be able to articulate your answer in such a way to actually make that other person question and ponder what gender is all about? 

Again I have the same goals as many of you do.  I don't like being different any more than any of you.  I want to integrate into society and be seen for me.  And that is and is going to forever be a woman.  I just want myself and everyone else to have such a grasp on what transsexualism is and what it means. The only answer to the question should not be "because I am a woman trapped in the body of a man."  That is not an accurate way to describe anything.  It is also not an answer that will gain the respect of anyone you give it to. 

People are going to challenge us on our thoughts and beliefs everyday.  Where would you rather practice that at?  Here in the security of our forums.  Or when someone asks you a question and makes you and the rest of the Trans community look a fool.


Posted on: August 24, 2007, 02:01:29 PM

---

I write the way I do and ask the question I do because I thought I new what being Trans was all about.  Then people started to challenge me and my views.  I had to use logic and fact based arguments to answer the challenges.  Feelings and emotions don't get you far in a debate defending who you are and how you live you life.

Robbie I give up.

I see no use in trying to justify the WHY. My friends know the WHY, and that is all that matters to me.

Have the most wonderfull day anyone can.

Deb

Quote from: Robbie on August 24, 2007, 01:26:05 PMAgain I have the same goals as many of you do.  I don’t like being different any more than any of you.  I want to integrate into society and be seen for me.  And that is and is going to forever be a woman.  I just want myself and everyone else to have such a grasp on what transsexualism is and what it means to them that the only answer they have to the question above is because I am a woman trapped in the body of a man.  That is not an accurate way to describe anything.

Well, this paragraph certainly speaks volumes about your perspective.  The way it is worded is that you have not already integrated into society and are seen as you.  Well, some of us have already done that and are seen as the people we are.  I just don't feel those of us who have done so should regress only to be seen as either "a woman who used to be a man" or a" man who looks like a woman", just because you are still trying to figure things out.  Have you ever tried stealth before?  Did you know that GGs (or those in stealth) are treated differently than those who are known as trans-women?  Yes, there IS a difference.  I've experienced both and I know that I prefer to be treated with respect than like a third-class citizen.  Like it or hate it, that's just the reality of it.

Good catch Melissa.  I did miss word much of that.  Thank you for pointing that out.  I have integrated into society the way I want for now.  Isn't integration a constantly changing process, and evolution if you will.   I was just trying to qualify my thoughts and ideas and did a poor job of that.  As far as being stealth I have never felt a need or wanted to do so.  Again that is just who I am right now.  The great thing about ideas and beliefs is you don't have to live by them forever.  They are a growing, living, breathing thing that should always be changing.  With actual debate and intelligent conversation all of us should (even me :) ) be open to new thoughts, ideas and beliefs.  If we are two stubborn and shorted sighted we do a real disservice to ourselves and the world.  I am just trying to engage people in thought.  That is it.  :)

QuoteI just want myself and everyone else to have such a grasp on what transsexualism is and what it means to them that the only answer they have to the question above is because I am a woman trapped in the body of a man.  That is not an accurate way to describe anything.  It is also not an answer that will gain the respect of anyone you give it to. 

Robbie, I appreciate your desire to educate everyone, including other women, on what TS truly is. What an admirable goal for anyone to embrace.


Let me relate to you my own methods in attempting to reach a goal.


1) I try to ask myself questions about my goals and my means of reaching them before I alienate too many people


2) I ask if I have discovered the, or a, definitive answer myself?


3) Should I do so, do I think I will successfully be able to pass along this information to nons and others?


4) Am I showing an ability to pass along my knowledge to others on this board?


If I cannot answer affirmatively to all of the above, I believe that further study and practice is required from me before setting out to reach that particular goal.


5) Perhaps a smaller goal is necessary before I can reach a larger goal.


I have never heard of an athlete winning the Olympic mile by climbing out of the stands and joining the race without practice. Have you? Or has anyone else on the board?


I imagine it takes years of practice at running. Then it probably requires a certain amount of luck in positioning, etc to win an Olympic gold medal. 


Hmmm, that sounds a lot like my life as a woman. practice, good fortune and living.


I have ideas about how others might be successful in finding their man/womanhoods. I have answers only for me.


All the best in all you set out to accomplish.


Nichole

Why do we get so upset when our ideals and beliefs are challenged?  Upset is the word I want to focus on here.  I have never once sat here at my computer in its secret secure bunker somewhere in PA and said I am the end all be all of transsexuals and those who don't follow me are all fools.  My teachings are the only way.  I don't know anymore or less then the rest of you.  All I am doing is challenging the ideals we all have.  People get upset because they know their stance is shaky and then emotion overrides knowledge. 

I have never attacked any of you for your views. All that is going on is a frank discussion.  Please don't take you marbles and go home just because you don't like the questions.  Again at the end of the day this is all just a discussion.  Let's all look through the emotion and use logic to get a look at some of the issues that are real issues to us, that we just cannot walk away from.    :)

Quote from: Robbie on August 24, 2007, 01:26:05 PM
Feelings and emotions don't get you far in a debate defending who you are and how you live you life.

I don't feel a need anymore to defend who I am or how I live my life... to anyone, including myself.

I am Kate. Accept me, reject me, but do NOT question me.

~Kate~

EDIT: I meant that to be directed generically at society, by the way - didn't mean it to sound harsh or personal against anyone :(

Quote from: Robbie on August 24, 2007, 05:19:57 PM

I have never attacked any of you for your views.

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals.

???


tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals.

Well that's some interesting news.  I never knew they were mutually exclusive.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Robbie on August 24, 2007, 05:19:57 PM
Why do we get so upset when our ideals and beliefs are challenged?  Upset is the word I want to focus on here.  I have never once sat here at my computer in its secret secure bunker somewhere in PA and said I am the end all be all of transsexuals and those who don't follow me are all fools.  My teachings are the only way.  I don't know anymore or less then the rest of you.  All I am doing is challenging the ideals we all have.  People get upset because they know their stance is shaky and then emotion overrides knowledge. 

I have never attacked any of you for your views. All that is going on is a frank discussion.  Please don't take you marbles and go home just because you don't like the questions.   Again at the end of the day this is all just a discussion.  Let's all look through the emotion and use logic to get a look at some of the issues that are real issues to us, that we just cannot walk away from.    :)

Have you seen yourself over these past four posts by others being attacked!? Has anyone called you a name or discounted your reality as being less than real? In fact, go back and read through this thread. Have you seen an attack from anyone? All I can find is people saying that is not my experience in response to your dicta.

I see women telling you that we are not transsexuals anymore, perhaps never were, or at least, that we have no desire to be seen that way. I do not see any attacks. Nor do I see anyone taking their marbles and going home. (I, anyhow, don't have marbles and I have never played that game. I might take my Raggedy Anne, or My Little Pony, and go home, that I have done! :laugh: )

I would also suggest that to use logic requires an understanding of what logic is. Logic is a way of speaking about language. Basically, whether or not certain terminology and usage has validity within the context of the argumentation. Logic is not a defining characteristic of REALITY, just a way to use words. See? Reality is not necessarily logical, because Reality is not a series of words, sentences and arguments. Logic is not a view of the world or an expression of any Reality whatesoever.

Robbie, what I continue to see is that this discussion on your part appears to demand that many of us who have experienced our lives differently agree that we are all transsexuals. That is not my reality, just your words. My reality is that I walk through my life and the world away from boards like any other woman. I do not get "read." I do not have difficulties due to having lost male gender acculturation. (I found it not very deep and a constant hassle and just dropped it.) I interact with other women and men, not as if I am a woman. But as a woman, because that is who I am.

Now, your mileage may vary from mine. I understand that. If you wish to say: This is my experience of this or that, then I have no problem with what you say. What I have read though is that you think my life is somehow shaky, and upset.

My life and experience do not attack yours just because they appear to be different than yours. And I use appear advisedly because I do not know how you walk through the world. The argument on your part might simply be an argument and have no basis in your day-to-day reality.

Some of us will argue from emotion and intuition. That, my dear, is a function of how we are and how we are comfortable. You may be comfortable in a different mode. But, please understand this, I cannot deny the substance and the reality of the life I lead for the sake of your argument! It will not occur. Nor do I see a need for either of us to give up what we live. All I see a need for is that we understand that our reality need not be everyone else's reality.  :)

So, were I to choose to continue this with you, you would have to get used to me using emotion/intuition to make any points I would have.

Fact is, you have not attacked any ideals and beliefs of mine. Why? Because I have not placed any of those in front of you to attack. I don't come to boards with teachings. Why would I come to a board presuming that anyone would require my services as a teacher? For me that would be breathtakingly vain. What I attempt to do is express my experiences in living my own life. Those are experiences, but not teachings. Just one woman's existence in the world.

Yet, what I read in your posts is that you do not seem to believe that my reality is real. And my stance, is not a stance: it is my life. If it doesn't conform to your standard of reality, then you appear to discard it from your perspective as not being real and go along with your own beliefs intact and needing no adjustment after reading how I experience reality. Instead, you simply declare that I am emotional, upset and illogical. (Hmm, there is something familiar about that.)

Unlike you, I don't have teachings to either defend or offend with. I simply have a life, and that life does not conform with the thoughts you have apparently expressed as your ideas previously. About my life: you do indeed know a heck of a lot less than do I.

Thanks for your understanding,


Nichole

Feelings and emotions are a very important part of life for every human being. With out them the world would be pretty boring.

Now if we were to be like Data on Star Trek without and feelings or emotions it really wouldn't matter to anyone what we were. Android, Transsexual android perhaps in some eyes. He was anatomicaly correct. Does that make him a man just because he has the right parts. Some super glue and a new chip and he could be anything. Technology is such in the world today (Thank God) that we yes we can have the right parts too. Will the right parts make me a bonified woman. NO!!! I have been a woman for a very long time without them. Mentaly and especialy in my heart.

It is an individual decission in our minds as to what we are. I am me and just that. I can be extreamly emotional at times. The HRT dosent do it all by its self. I was an emotional child. Does that make me a sick person that needs some sort of trerapy. I don't think so. I have always and will continue to be the most carring and loving person that I can possibly be toward mankind, womankind, transexual kind, gay, lesbian,white, black,asian, or whoever I may have left out since I don't know all of the LABLES for everyone.

We are here to learn from others, not to be taught. First grade for me was a long time ago.

I truly have learned so much from my sisters here at Susans. I can't even beging to express the gratitude I have for you all. Oh and Robbie I have learned something from you as well. I have learned to stand-up for what I beleive in. I thank you for your teachings.

Deb

Robbie, what ideals are you challenging? The only thing I get so far from your posts is that you're trying to make a point of some kind. You are failing miserably, my dear, as I still have no clue exactly what it is you're attempting to get across to us. First, I assumed you didn't identify as female, then you said you do - could you kindly put into a few sentences your agenda here?

No one is upset about ideals or beliefs being challenged as you are failing to articulate to us your agenda.
Rather you are confusing posters on this thread. If confusion is your goal, you are succeeding, hon.

Quote from: Robbie on August 24, 2007, 05:19:57 PM
Why do we get so upset when our ideals and beliefs are challenged?  Upset is the word I want to focus on here.  I have never once sat here at my computer in its secret secure bunker somewhere in PA and said I am the end all be all of transsexuals and those who don't follow me are all fools.  My teachings are the only way.  I don't know anymore or less then the rest of you.  All I am doing is challenging the ideals we all have.  People get upset because they know their stance is shaky and then emotion overrides knowledge. 

I have never attacked any of you for your views. All that is going on is a frank discussion.  Please don't take you marbles and go home just because you don't like the questions.  Again at the end of the day this is all just a discussion.  Let's all look through the emotion and use logic to get a look at some of the issues that are real issues to us, that we just cannot walk away from.    :)

Ladies,

I have spent the day rereading all the posts.  The reason for doing this is gain a new prospective on what we have all said and where I have failed some of you.  I assure you all I have nothing but love and respect for each and every one of you.  If my point and agenda are cloudy the sun will shine again.  If more of you are confused tell me more about that and I will do my best to be more clear.  I look forward to more great days with you ladies


Love always
Robbie

Just explain what it is you are trying to say. We are all intrigued by now. EXPLAIN!!!!!

I think this thread is becoming a joke.  I will contest anyone, I dont care who it is, that challenges my womanhood.  I have had enough of these stupid arguments before to listen to the stupidity of some ppl here too.   If you think you are a man, I will take your word for it.  But like Jeannette said, dont ever assume that I am like you or feel like you. I dont even want to hear what you have got to say. Maybe it is the right time to let go of the philosophical lessons ::) (that seem more like embellished statements with no intelligible meaning) and move on.  There are more topics on this site besides this one.

Quote from: Keira on August 19, 2007, 01:53:58 AM

These days, some permanent fillers can take care of the nose to mouth line for not too much money; if they're not too severe, very severe ones are only partially fixable. But, as for everything else, get out of the sun if you want to look 25 at 40 (I'm 2 months away!). Still don't get people not using broad spectrum UVB UVA high SPF sunscreen (60 is the one I got) all the time. I prefer using self-tanners than looking like a shrivelled prune at 50 or before.

I've heard about fillers and would like some to fill out my face. I've in recent years lost a lot of weight in my face and noticed it getting thinner and more boney since being on HRT. Most genetic females are the opposite and have more rounder and filled out faces..

You look like Joni Mitchell in that pic. She never let a bony face get in the way of her glamorous femininity.

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
One of the things I have a real problem with the MtoF community is their obsession with appearance.

I can agree there, but this is approximately about where our common ground ends.

Quote
  When friends ask me what my transition is about and what are my goals I explain it like this.  When I was a man I had to act everyday that I was happy with the person I was.  I had to act like I enjoyed my role as a man in society.  I don't see it any easier trying to convince people that I am a woman in society.  We should not want to work that hard to maintain an image of femininity that is unrealistic.  It seems that two many of us get caught up in the idea of passing and being stealth that the roots of who we are is lost. 

I'm in agreement for different reasons then you have.

Quote
NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals.  I think our community as a whole needs to embrace this more than male or female.

False. We are all transsexuals, but we are also men or women or neither or etc based on gender identity. Despite the interchangability of the terms and the varied definitions, in the end there is at least one definition within gender that states that if you require a vagina and boobs to feel as though you are whole then you are a woman, and if you require a penis to feel whole then you are a man, and if you require neither or both or a fluid mixture to feel complete then you are an androgyne.

The concept of man or woman are human constructs used to describe a brain function (bodily integrity instincts most likely, i.e. what should your body look like so you know if you're injured or damaged), a physical and physiological form (penis/testosterone = man, vagina/breasts/estrogen = woman), the genetic definition (XY and XX), and the cultural and social pressures and influences on us all (gender roles and gender expression).

Since they can be used to describe all three (and context generally is what people use to figure out which usage is in play) claiming that we can never be a woman or never be a man is categorically untrue. We can be women or men or androgyne (for mtf or ftm respectively, and androgynes will eventually get the stuff they need too) simply because of our gender identity (our bodily integrity instincts as relates to sexual characteristics) and eventually we even fill the physical/physiological one because Sexual Reassignment surgery and hormone replacement therapy adjust our physical forms enough to fit the definition.

The genetic definition is irrelevant to everyone but research scientists, medical staff and biologists, and it certainly has no relevance to us socially, spiritually, and physically since most of what our sex based chromosomes do happens in utero.

And the social definition is also irrelevant since its entirely based on culture and social dynamics. As one can see when one leaves Western society, the definition of man and woman socially changes radically. I'd rather use more objective criteria, wouldn't you? Especially since the feminist movement will eventually be successful in eliminating gender roles and gender expression as gendered characteristics and will change them to be social and personality based characteristics in society's eyes (eventually).

Quote
  Why do we try and force ourselves to black and white standards of a gendered society that we do not fit into.  Or ever will.  Someone will always know.  Someone will always figure it out.  We will always have to tell someone all about who we were.  We all need to stand more united and let the world know we are transsexual, post-op, pre-op, non-op  because no matter what we will always be transsexual.     

We are transsexual, but I am also a woman. An ftm is also a man. Androgynes are still androgynes. You put too much stock in social definitions and it hurts your point. Your point is valid, even if the reasons for coming to it are wrong. We are transsexuals, we were born one way and either plan to or have changed to another and the things changed are sexual characteristics. Denying that is denying who we are.

But much of the gender binary is antiquated and I seriously challenge you to justify how I'm any less of a woman then a natal female. Keep in mind, all the above definitions are valid.

Quote from: debisl on August 22, 2007, 02:29:07 PM
I dare anyone to tell me I am not a woman. Transsexual has been an avenue to where I am going. I will be a  complete woman in 1 1/2 months. I do consider my self there now.But society does not. I have cried enough tears for thousands. Please let it end!!! When does the hurt stop. Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please don't lable all of us in the same boat.

When does the lable making stop. Please stop!We are people of Gods world.

Lets try to help one another. This should be our main concern. We are what we are.
I came to this sit to gain wisdom

Deb

Judging by your photograph no one would argue with that..

Quote from: Sophia on September 06, 2007, 11:14:53 AMAs one can see when one leaves Western society, the definition of man and woman socially changes radically.

For one example of this-- According to the Vedic definitions of gender from ancient India (http://www.galva108.org/Tritiya_prakriti.html), you're not a woman until you bear children, and are strictly heterosexual. Adult female lesbians and asexuals are excluded from the definition of women according to the rigid Vedic categories of gender. In that system, all queer people of any sort are placed in the category of tritiya prakriti which means 'third gender'. That includes trans people too. This explains why hijras in India are categorized as "neither man nor woman," even though they have girlnames and are called "she."

Obviously it was patriarchal hetero men who came up with that system--the only thing that matters in a woman is popping out babies, and in the absence of that, she's not even a woman.  >:( I have long been fighting the view of transgender that tries to relegate us all into some "third gender" ghetto. Apparently this is where it originated. According to this system, Portia de Rossi isn't a woman! Get outta here.

So Robbie be careful about drawing boundaries to exclude certain kinds of women from womanhood, because it could get much more restrictive than that--and all this exclusion is oppression. Each individual has a right to identify based on her own inner sense of her self, and is not limited to patriarchal imposed definitions.

Quote from: Hypatia on September 06, 2007, 09:35:49 AM
You look like Joni Mitchell in that pic. She never let a bony face get in the way of her glamorous femininity.

That's weird Hypatia I've had that comparison with Joni Mitchell made before. I can't see it myself and considering she's many years older than me it's even more of a concern if I look that old....lol

despite being on HRT for a long time my fat distribution represents a male type fat distribution (i.e thin face, thin legs, no hips and a fat belly round the waist). I would prefer a fatter rounder face like I had before I was on hormones...

Quote from: y2gender on August 24, 2007, 09:41:04 AM

I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans. ;D If someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Zythyra

Yes!  That's exactly how I feel!

Quote from: Hypatia on September 07, 2007, 12:45:33 AM

Quote from: Sophia on September 06, 2007, 11:14:53 AMAs one can see when one leaves Western society, the definition of man and woman socially changes radically.

For one example of this-- According to the Vedic definitions of gender from ancient India (http://www.galva108.org/Tritiya_prakriti.html)

<snip>

That is really interesting. I almost got into sociology because people have such intruiging habits.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 07, 2007, 06:59:40 AM

Quote from: y2gender on August 24, 2007, 09:41:04 AM

I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans. ;D If someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Zythyra

Yes!  That's exactly how I feel!

That is exactly how I feel too.

Quote from: asiangurliee on September 07, 2007, 12:55:42 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 07, 2007, 06:59:40 AM

Quote from: y2gender on August 24, 2007, 09:41:04 AM

I pass perfectly, as a person who is openly and proudly trans. ;D If someone looks at me and sees a woman, that's great, if they look at me and see man in a dress, so be it. I'm living my life as who I am. That's what's important to me.

Zythyra

Yes!  That's exactly how I feel!

That is exactly how I feel too.

Thanks everyone! Today three of us, tomorrow the world  >:D

Now if we could just get the rest of the world to let us safely live as who we are, and how we wish to express our gender on any given day, I'd be very happy. ;D

Zythyra

ummmmmm...I am still trying to get over the shock a couple pages back of a "transsexual woman" saying the words:

"I am a man"

And then repeating that awful, horrible pejorative phrase "I am a woman trapped in a man's body." That is a phrase that I have only heard from trans-misogynists.

Posted on: November 13, 2007, 04:32:59 AM

---

Quote from: Hypatia on September 07, 2007, 12:45:33 AM

Quote from: Sophia on September 06, 2007, 11:14:53 AMAs one can see when one leaves Western society, the definition of man and woman socially changes radically.

For one example of this-- According to the Vedic definitions of gender from ancient India (http://www.galva108.org/Tritiya_prakriti.html), you're not a woman until you bear children, and are strictly heterosexual. Adult female lesbians and asexuals are excluded from the definition of women according to the rigid Vedic categories of gender. In that system, all queer people of any sort are placed in the category of tritiya prakriti which means 'third gender'. That includes trans people too. This explains why hijras in India are categorized as "neither man nor woman," even though they have girlnames and are called "she."

Obviously it was patriarchal hetero men who came up with that system--the only thing that matters in a woman is popping out babies, and in the absence of that, she's not even a woman.  >:( I have long been fighting the view of transgender that tries to relegate us all into some "third gender" ghetto. Apparently this is where it originated. According to this system, Portia de Rossi isn't a woman! Get outta here.

So Robbie be careful about drawing boundaries to exclude certain kinds of women from womanhood, because it could get much more restrictive than that--and all this exclusion is oppression. Each individual has a right to identify based on her own inner sense of her self, and is not limited to patriarchal imposed definitions.

Rock on, hypatia.

Posted on: November 13, 2007, 04:36:41 AM

---

Quote from: Hypatia on August 24, 2007, 09:06:52 AM

Quote from: Yvonne on August 24, 2007, 02:41:53 AM
Have you ever seen a  passable trans woman who is an activist?

Yes, absolutely. For example: Mara Keisling, director of the National Center for Transgender Equality here in the USA. She isn't a glamour babe, but she looks exactly like what she is--a serious professional woman.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nctequality.org%2Fimages%2Fkeislingmara%2520in%2520blade%2520blog.jpg&hash=514f6bd5d9306634e640f75fc07224dd7922b95b)

And regardless of my criticism of Kate Bornstein's ideas, as to looks she passes perfectly.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.timeout.com%2Fnewyork%2Fexport_images%2F560%2F560.x231.gay.katemic.jpg&hash=396b60e8d943f0bd22cc9b56790007f321c1a79a)
As long as she keeps her wig on, because underneath it she's quite bald. (meow)

Neither of these ladies has a stealth history as far as I know. They've always been out activists.

I don't know about Ms Keisling but Ms Bornstein does not vibe female at all IMO

I was talking about looks, not vibes. I haven't seen her live or on video or heard her speak, only seen still pictures.

Quote from: togetherwecan on August 18, 2007, 07:18:55 PM
the images of women we see that we strive to look like are not real....and the reality is the unairbrushed versions are better. Why? Becase they are real.
http://jezebel.com/gossip/photoshop-of-horrors/heres-our-winner-redbook-shatters-our-faith-in-well-not-publishing-but-maybe-god-278919.php

Yea, but the wrinkled version of this women still had looks way above anything I could ever achieve. Most magazine picture's are touched up before they go to press but the women still look attractive to start with.