Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My mom sent this to me today and I'm not sure about how I should respond back. She is very Christian and I thought we were finally healing wounds from me informing her I was trans over a year ago



There are ten passages in the Bible that directly or indirectly refer to homosexuality. Homosexual behavior is viewed negatively every time it is mentioned, yet some in the Church today are saying that "loving committed" homosexual relationships are approved by God. A question I have repeatedly heard is "How do liberal pastors, seminary professors and bishops get around the clear teaching of Scripture on homosexuality?" I will answer that as we look at the Biblical passages on homosexuality.

Genesis 2:18, 22. In this passage, God creates a woman to complement the man. God makes a woman, not another man, to fulfill Adam's need for companionship.

Genesis 19:1-9. The Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their sexual sin, which involved homosexual rape. Liberals in the Church teach that this passage does not condemn homosexuality per se but homosexual rape. They would teach the real sin of Sodom was "inhospitality." Actually, both are true. Homosexual rape is inhospitable. That this passage also condemns homosexual behavior in itself and not just rape is shown by the fact that Lot offers his daughters rather than see his guests raped. The Bible never says that God approved of Lot's offer, but it shows how taboo homosexual behavior was to this follower of Jehovah.

Leviticus 18:22 condemns sex between two men. Liberals point out that Leviticus also condemns the eating of pork and the wearing of a garment woven with two kinds of material. We no longer follow these rules, they contend, therefore we can ignore this passage about homosexuality. Not so. Jesus by His death fulfilled the sacrificial and ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. We are free to eat pork and not follow those Old Testament laws which were given specifically to the Jews to distinguish them from the nations (Mark 7:18). The moral law of the Old Testament, however, still stands. Leviticus chapter 18 also condemns incest (verse 9), adultery (verse 20), child sacrifice (verse 21) and bestiality (verse 23), yet no one is—or should—maintain that these laws are no longer applicable because they appear in the Book of Leviticus.

Leviticus 20:13 teaches that homosexual acts are "detestable" and should be punished by death. Liberals say "If you are going to be consistent, do you really want to kill homosexuals today?" Our response: Israel was a theocracy, not a democracy. We are never instructed in the Bible to impose Old Testament theocratic punishments on other forms of government. But the Apostle Paul does state in Romans 13 that all governments, even pagan governments, make laws to curb human sin. Whatever the form of government, the Bible's point still stands: homosexual behavior is grievous to God.

Deuteronomy 23:17-18 warns against prostitution, including homosexual prostitution. They are "abominations to the Lord".

Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

Romans 1:26-27. This is the clearest teaching in the Bible against homosexual behavior of any kind. Homosexual behavior is the consequence of mankind's idolatry. Homosexual desires are called "degrading passions" and are said to be "against nature." Liberals argue that this passage does not condemn "loving, committed" homosexual behavior, but only condemns child abuse, homosexual prostitution and promiscuity. But this is impossible to maintain since the passage is a blanket condemnation with no qualifiers. There is no hint here that that which is against nature becomes natural if the two people are in a committed relationship.

I Corinthians 6:9-11. This passage teaches that people who continue in impenitent sin—including but not limited to homosexuality—will not inherit God's Kingdom. Two words for homosexuality are used here, one meaning "soft, effeminate, the passive partner in homosexual relations" and the other being "male bed", meaning, a male who has sex with a male. The passage teaches that some at Corinth had been involved in this behavior but had been washed through the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit. When liberals in the Church teach that one can inherit the Kingdom of God while continuing in this behavior they are being very cruel. Whether they realize it or not, according to this passage, they are encouraging people to go to hell.

I Timothy 1:8-10 contains a list of gross sins, including murder, fornication, kidnapping, lying, and more. Included in that list is homosexual behavior. All these behaviors are referred to as "contrary to sound teaching."

Jude 6-7 (see also 2 Peter 2:6-10) teaches that the sin of Sodom was "gross immorality and they went after strange flesh." Sodom is an example of God's punishment of "eternal fire." Liberals try to maintain that Sodom's sin here is, again, inhospitality. But the words "gross immorality" and "going after strange flesh" are clearly a reference to the sexual sins of Sodom.

Thus the Bible teaches that sexual intercourse is for a man and woman within the commitment of marriage. Any other form of sexual intercourse, be it heterosexual fornication or homosexual behavior, is forbidden by the Bible. The Good News is that through Christ's saving death, there is forgiveness of sins for all who repent and put their faith in Christ (I Corinthians 6:9-11). The Christian Gospel holds out forgiveness and new life to those who have been involved in any kind of sinful, sexual behavior. For those with same sex attraction, God may indeed grant them healing and reorienting toward heterosexual marriage. Some Christians, however, may struggle with same sex attraction throughout their lives. Regardless of one's situation, all single Christians are called to live chaste lives for the glory of God and for their own well being.

Let us pray that the Lord of the Church will enable His Church to maintain the truth of the Bible in our confused age.

Thoughts anyone?

seems to me the Romans passage has more to do with the difference between love and indiscriminant sex

I would be much easier for me to gather my thoughts on what she wrote if I knew what the definition of "repentance" means to her, where she stood on the doctrine of eternal security, what denomination she belongs to, and the Bible she uses.  That could help clarify a lot, by just looking at what she wrote only, she does make a lot of great points, and I agree with her on some of them.  As Dr. Michael Brown (anti-gay activist) puts it, "God calls us to holiness, not to heterosexuality," and I agree, and I am glad that your mother sees that there are some gay people that do struggle with same-sex attractions all of their lives.  As far as this concerning YOU personally, unless you are a lesbian woman/attracted to women, I believe her arguments against being transgender are weak.  She (and many others) are making so much more out of Deuteronomy 22:5 that what is really there.  Yes, it speaks against cross-dressing, but that is it.  GRS wasn't even invented back then so to use that passage to condemn transgender people who get GRS is very problematic.  Personally, I believe the Bible, if taken literally, may be more in favor for transgender individuals.

honestly not sure how id feel if i found that on my fb page,

im sure that if someone wanted they can find a passage that makes just about anything a sin

for me personal the bible has great significance in building a mutual contract between God and humans. The main focus and ultimate realization of the bible is the birth of God's loving son and his gift of love he brought into the world. He came to fulfill the contract being build by the bible. As far as I know Lord Jesus never mentioned trans, gays lesbians , binary, non binary or any thing under the umbrella . Christ is all about Love nothing else (period) the closest passage I can think of is a dream by St. Peter about a canvas tent lowed from the  sky   and the meaning to Saint Peter was that all foods were  acceptable for nourishment not just those deemed by the Jewish   priest , Which would be in opposition to the Old Testament  , therefore making Christ the fulfillment of the law of the Old Testament Also Christ mentions those who have castrated themselves for devotion to God in a very favorable light.

Firstly, I'm wondering what version of the Bible she's quoting..

Secondly, she's fallen in to the same trap all the antitrans and antigay christians take with most of these.. She's taken them out of context.. Written, historical, you name it, she's missed the correct context..  Here's an example:

Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

This actually has nothing to do with trans people, but does make a historical comment about a situation at the time - Men dressing as women to escape military service..

The bible was pieced together in that 1700s by a bunch of men trying to set up an iron clad hierarchy. They succeeded. In other words, those are not spiritual words to live by.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

Ugh...  and you can't even duck when your Mom starts throwing bible verses at you   :(

There are many, including myself that have walked this path to self acceptance in spite of our fundamentalist upbringing.  I recently found Andrea James' section on spirituality and the Trans person condition:  http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html (http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html)

I hope this helps to heal the rift between your mother and you. 

And this is why when I realized I was transgender my weak faith in organized Christianity went to zero faith in organized Christianity. People can believe what they want and I'll have debates in my head if I believe in higher powers still, or if it was a device to control earlier civilizations.

Quote from: kelly_aus on December 28, 2014, 04:26:08 PM
Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

This actually has nothing to do with trans people, but does make a historical comment about a situation at the time - Men dressing as women to escape military service..

Yep. That verse is a prohibition against men dressing as women to avoid military duty, and women dressing as men to fight or go to the front to visit a man.

For someone like this I think it's pretty much a lost cause - they are going to believe what they believe no matter what. My own parents are the same; I've had scripture quoted at me by them. Funny thing - I am a Christian and I am intimately familiar with these "gotcha" verses.

I'd suggest that they consider Galations 3:28, or John 3:36.

Regarding the bible verses, people see what they want to see I realized.

I believe that God is love. God loves everyone.
God made me who I am! I did not decide one day to be a woman. I was born this way. God made me this way.

That's all I live by.

Also, this is why I set my security controls way high on my facebook account. People can't just post stuff on my wall. I've been a FB'er since 2005. That said, I'm probably going to blow away my account as part of my transition and start fresh, or get off of the horrible time suck that FB is.

Quote from: Kyra553 on December 28, 2014, 12:31:08 PM
Deuteronomy 23:17-18 warns against prostitution, including homosexual prostitution. They are "abominations to the Lord".

Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

Romans 1:26-27. This is the clearest teaching in the Bible against homosexual behavior of any kind. Homosexual behavior is the consequence of mankind's idolatry. Homosexual desires are called "degrading passions" and are said to be "against nature." Liberals argue that this passage does not condemn "loving, committed" homosexual behavior, but only condemns child abuse, homosexual prostitution and promiscuity. But this is impossible to maintain since the passage is a blanket condemnation with no qualifiers. There is no hint here that that which is against nature becomes natural if the two people are in a committed relationship.

Thoughts anyone?

Yes.  I wrote a diatribe earlier in this board about Deuteronomy.   Plenty in there that illustrates Deut 22:5 is to be followed as much as Deut 22:22.  If her church doesn't follow Deut 22:22, where v22 in the same chapter says those are committing acts of sexual infidelity must be killed,   then she has no right to complain about Deut 22:5. 

"Romans 1:26-27. This is the clearest teaching in the Bible against homosexual behavior of any kind."
This really ticks me off.  When anyone says this, THEY HAVE NEVE READ ROMANS 1, 2, and 3 IN ORDER.   UGGGGH!  Romans 1 CLEARLY shows what happens to a society and individuals when it/they reject God.  It doesn't talk about those who believe in Jesus as savior who are gay, trans, etc.  WHEN WILL CHRISTIANS STOP THE CHERRY-PICKING?!?!?! 

Pardon the multiple CAPS but...WOW....  as a Jesus Follower myself (I don't like to be called Christian because I don't want to be lumped into the group of these same people) I find this blantant misinterpretation is grotesque. 

And pointing to Deut 22:5 as the "end all" verse on cross dressing is pathethic when they don't pay attention to v22.

How many cheating spouses are sitting in the chairs at church?  They shouldn't be, according to v22, they need to be killed at once.    If the church doesn't follow God's directive of killing them, they are held blame for not following God's laws.


Which is why I'm glad I'm saved by the grace of God, not the rules of the past.

Quote from: Kyra553 on December 28, 2014, 12:31:08 PM
Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

Thoughts anyone?

You may want to inform her of the surrounding scripture of that verse:

4 If you see your fellow Israelite's donkey or ox fallen on the road, do not ignore it. Help the owner get it to its feet.

5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

6 If you come across a bird's nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young. 7 You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.

8 When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.


So... if she's ever driven by a donkey laying down without tracking down the owner, shot a bird with a nest, or built her house without including a parapet... she's at least as sinful as you are.  There's a whole bunch of them that seem just as important as the verse about the fashion police before and after. 

You need to help save her soul and send her an email about it before it's too late! >:-)

If she is that conservative or fundamentalist and knows what the liberal explanation would be, then it sadly may be hopeless until she can learn to open her mind.  I was raised in a fundamentalist household, though they mainly parroted church teaching and were not able to quote to much scripture.  It is a tough situation and very tiresome, but if she is willing to dialog, there is hope.

I highly recommend this book that gets into all the quoted scriptures in detail, including the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic languages:http://www.amazon.com/What-Bible-Really-about-Homosexuality/dp/188636009X#reader_B005BTQEQ4 (http://www.amazon.com/What-Bible-Really-about-Homosexuality/dp/188636009X#reader_B005BTQEQ4)

It also goes into detail about Sodom and Gommorah and clearly shows that the sin was inhospitality and all of the other scriptures that refer to the destruction of the cities state this.  However, many people will only believe what they want to believe. 

Best Wishes,
Rosa

There's a couple same sex couples in the bible... Ruth and Naomi, David and Johnathan, and Daniel and Ashpenaz...

But that doesn't matter because of context and how large the bible is right?

Nobody can decide what the bible says but you. It's your choice to read it and decide what it means. That's why I'm a bit against organized religion as a whole... your spiritually should be something personal to you, it shouldn't be taught by somebody else because their interpretations will be different than yours. If people actually went through on their own and digested it on their own imagine how different Christianity would be?

My suggestion is research, and not just on Christianity. Research everything, from Islam to Hinduism to those guys who worship Haruhi. Reading about other religions and even other ways Christianity is interpreted can't be harmful, it'll only help you on your track to figuring out your beliefs.

QuoteMark 12:30-31New International Version (NIV)

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

It constantly amazes me that many folk who call themselves Christian forget about Mark 12:30-31.

At its heart Christianity is such a simple religion, - even a child can understand it!

There's another old religious principle which is worth bearing in mind and it's this.  'The measure by which you judge others shall be used to judge you.'
And John 8:7 also tells us concerning the woman caught in adultery; - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

So why do so many folk who call themselves Christian spend so much time judging other people?
As a Franciscan I take very much to heart St. Francis's teaching that, 'One should always preach the Gospel and only if it is necessary use your mouth '.

By the way "repentance" means to turn about and to leave your wrong-doing behind you.  As a Sister of Penance this is something that occupies my meditations and prayers on a regular basis.  That I haven't stopped being the woman I know myself to be yet should tell you that I know very well in my heart that being a trans-woman is not wrong-doing.

Tell your Mum to go work in a homeless shelter as a volunteer for a couple of months because she hasn't realised what Christianity is yet and she needs to learn.

[cynic mode on] Wonder where the part is that say :if your child ,you love , is not behaving as society want.
Torture it so much that it commit suicide,so the sin is there. [cynic mode off]
Love and respect we need.Not greed and suppression.

Don't we love conservative Christians. Remember you could always add the point that in Deuteronomy it also says that a rape victim is to marry her rapist. If there is a woman that is found to be a non-virgin on her wedding night she is to be stoned to death at her fathers house. If she was in fact raped by someone they owe her father fifty pieces of silver. And here is the kicker if she does not scream out within the city walls you are to put both her and her rapist to death. Then in the New Testament Paul was drinking Haterade as well when he said in Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians that if a woman has questions on the teachings of the bible that she should not ask the priest but should stay silent and ask her husband in the quiet of their own home. Also I would love to note that almost every woman in the bible is some sort of antagonist. From Eve to Delilah to Mary who traveled with Jesus being a prostitute. Women were always second class citizens in the bible, so maybe you should ask your mother if she wishes for you to be something your not maybe you should point out that biblically speaking she should hold her tongue unless her opinion is rightfully asked for.

Deuteronomy 22:13-29
1 Corinthians 14: 34-35

And something your mother does not know that my Grandfather that is a firm Christian taught me from the time I came out to him as a trans man. Eunuchs were gay men. That becomes very helpful in Matthew Chapter 19: 12 and if you look it a red letter it's red cause Jesus said it, because he love people as they were not for who they were with in bed. God loves you no matter what always remember that.

God was wrong. Period.

Quote from: kelly_aus on December 28, 2014, 04:26:08 PM
Firstly, I'm wondering what version of the Bible she's quoting..

Secondly, she's fallen in to the same trap all the antitrans and antigay christians take with most of these.. She's taken them out of context.. Written, historical, you name it, she's missed the correct context..  Here's an example:

Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches against transvestitism (men wearing women's clothing and vice verse) is an abomination to the Lord. Sadly, some in the Church today teach that if a male feels himself to be a female, it is permissible for that person to wear women's clothing and even undergo sex change surgery.

This actually has nothing to do with trans people, but does make a historical comment about a situation at the time - Men dressing as women to escape military service..

This, so much.

Other than that, though, I've grown sick and tired of people calling trans issues "homossexuality". Oh come on, why does my life bother them so much? I can't even be a trans les woman in piece, people just assume I'm doing this to attract men and that I'm prostituting myself and blah blah blah.

So tiring. I'm Christian myself, but many these days seem like they just stop thinking once they embrace a religion or belief.



@Author, you might want to put a trigger warning in the title.
You could also kindly tell your mother that just like she wouldn't be able to say anything about nuclear physics, simply because she doesn't know anything about them, it makes zero sense to judge something she knows NOTHING about and spout out that "it's in the Bible" or whatever.

Seriously, people these days are so tiring. I'm sorry that those hate messages have to come from your own mother.

There's this (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,10623.0.html) useful resource pinned in this section that could be useful if she dared read it, but I'm pretty sure she'd just call it sinful, heretic and impious or something. You could cite that "my people perish for lack of knowledge" and that the Proverbs were written so as to judge with equity (Pv 1), but I'm not sure it's worth arguing at this point.

Quote from: femmebutt on March 31, 2015, 11:43:26 PM
God was wrong. Period.

I actually don't think so myself, but to each their opinion. And I really understand where you're coming from...

I wouldn't wish being transgendered to anyone. I got lucky myself and started "passing" really soon, but do I deserve any respect from society or fundamentalist Christians? No, of course not, I'm not even human in their eyes!

Go figure.
[/rant]

Matthew 7:1  "Do not judge, or you to will be Judged"

Quote from: arimoose on December 28, 2014, 04:33:02 PM
The bible was pieced together in that 1700s by a bunch of men trying to set up an iron clad hierarchy. They succeeded. In other words, those are not spiritual words to live by.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

A question I asked when I was a small child "why doesn't the Bible mention Dinosaurs?" ...and cue the crickets

Quote from: kittenpower on April 03, 2015, 05:18:31 PM
Matthew 7:1  "Do not judge, or you to will be Judged"

Actually, that's actually slightly out of context as well. Judging by itself is necessary for the most part (otherwise, how would you know if what they tell you is right or wrong?): what Jesus is condemning is the hypocrisy in which one judges another without looking at themselves, or as an excuse so as not to look at themselves.

That said, the Bible does speak about judging with equity, and someone judging something they don't know or haven't experienced at all (typical case of trans issues) is anything but judging with equity. Same as for being biased and hearing no other arguments other than your own.

Unfortunately, no matter what the Bible says, many Christians have been acting exactly as the judgemental pharisees back in Jesus's times acted.

As for dinosaurs, they're mentioned in Genesis under land animals in general.  :P

So, people who read the Bible during the 16th century, knew about dinosaurs?  Sorry, but a general statement about land animals does not answer the dinosaur question.  The Bible mentions Birds and Lions specifically, and the existence of dinosaurs is so spectacular, that the authors of the Bible would have specifically mentioned them, if they had known about them. God is in my heart, not in a book...

Quote from: kittenpower on April 03, 2015, 06:35:03 PM
So, people who read the Bible during the 16th century, knew about dinosaurs?  Sorry, but a general statement about land animals does not answer the dinosaur question.  The Bible mentions Birds and Lions specifically, and the existence of dinosaurs is so spectacular, that the authors of the Bible would have specifically mentioned them, if they had known about them. God is in my heart, not in a book...

That's if they had known about them?
I dunno if they knew about dinosaurs during the 16th century, but the writer of Genesis definitely didn't. And it is clearly stated that posterior translations should remain as loyal to the original book and accurate as possible. This didn't always happen over history, but it's what was supposed to happen.

Christians do believe the Bible was inspired by the Holy Ghost, but it was written by humans, people who were subject to their historical context. They had different social and personal issues, different knowledge settings, different lives altogether... that is why Christians constantly reinterpret the Bible nowadays (or at least are supposed to).

It having been written in a different historical context doesn't mean that nothing applies to nowadays, right? If it was written that way, there must've been a reason.



That said, I don't quite understand where you're coming from. Uh okay, the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs directly, meaning God is not in it? Uhmm o.O

Of course still, I'm only speaking about what Christians (and I) believe. Your beliefs are only your own, it's just that I'm confused about your post.

_{(We're also kind of going off-topic now)}

Hi Kyra,

I am sorry you are dealing with this from your Mom, especially on Facebook. I do not know what to say but hugs.

People will find anything to support themselves on an emotional issue. I hope with some time your Mom will support you and your transition.

Using religion to support an argument is one of those things that evokes a lot of emotional responses. It is difficult to use reason when emotions are raw. I recommend letting some time pass them reconnecting. Try to keep it positive. I know it hurts now.

Quote from: Beatriz on April 03, 2015, 07:19:15 PM
That's if they had known about them?
I dunno if they knew about dinosaurs during the 16th century, but the writer of Genesis definitely didn't. And it is clearly stated that posterior translations should remain as loyal to the original book and accurate as possible. This didn't always happen over history, but it's what was supposed to happen.

Christians do believe the Bible was inspired by the Holy Ghost, but it was written by humans, people who were subject to their historical context. They had different social and personal issues, different knowledge settings, different lives altogether... that is why Christians constantly reinterpret the Bible nowadays (or at least are supposed to).

It having been written in a different historical context doesn't mean that nothing applies to nowadays, right? If it was written that way, there must've been a reason.



That said, I don't quite understand where you're coming from. Uh okay, the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs directly, meaning God is not in it? Uhmm o.O

Of course still, I'm only speaking about what Christians (and I) believe. Your beliefs are only your own, it's just that I'm confused about your post.

_{(We're also kind of going off-topic now)}

No, people did not know about dinosaurs in the 16th century (bones must have been found, but not a lot of people knew), but the Bible was in print at that time; my point being that dinosaurs were not mentioned in the Bible. So, it's rather convenient to say that dinosaurs were mentioned in the book of genesis as animals of the earth, because "we" know of their existence.  The book of Genesis mentions God forming the earth and the heavens in six days, and then taking a break on the seventh day. And then to my recollection goes into the story of the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve.  In my opinion if God would have related that story to the person who wrote the book of Genesis; God would have included the information about the dinosaurs, because it's fascinating, they ruled the earth for millions of years, and their remains are here for us to discover, so why not include it in the bible.  The dinosaur issue is probably not a big deal to many people, but it is something that caused me to doubt the religious beliefs that were being passed to me at a very young age. I do have a very strong belief in God, but I am not guided by the Bible.  I assume that you hold the Bible sacred, and I respect your beliefs.

Quote from: arimoose on December 28, 2014, 04:33:02 PM
The bible was pieced together in that 1700s by a bunch of men trying to set up an iron clad hierarchy. They succeeded. In other words, those are not spiritual words to live by.

Not so, the Bible was in existence long before then.  Mostly these days I study the oldest manuscripts I can find in an effort to get away from the taint of the Reformation.  Thanks to the internet and certain specialist on-line archives there are a great many of the older texts available.  I particularly favour the Syriac translations myself.

Quote from: kittenpower on April 03, 2015, 09:01:38 PM
No, people did not know about dinosaurs in the 16th century (bones must have been found, but not a lot of people knew), but the Bible was in print at that time; my point being that dinosaurs were not mentioned in the Bible. So, it's rather convenient to say that dinosaurs were mentioned in the book of genesis as animals of the earth, because "we" know of their existence.  The book of Genesis mentions God forming the earth and the heavens in six days, and then taking a break on the seventh day. And then to my recollection goes into the story of the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve.  In my opinion if God would have related that story to the person who wrote the book of Genesis; God would have included the information about the dinosaurs, because it's fascinating, they ruled the earth for millions of years, and their remains are here for us to discover, so why not include it in the bible.  The dinosaur issue is probably not a big deal to many people, but it is something that caused me to doubt the religious beliefs that were being passed to me at a very young age. I do have a very strong belief in God, but I am not guided by the Bible.  I assume that you hold the Bible sacred, and I respect your beliefs.

Maybe God just didn't find dinosaurs so majestic and important? His perspective is different from ours, after all, and His greatest living creation was the human being in the first place.

I do hold the Bible sacred, but I personally think it's impossible not to reinterpret it, as many parts either make zero sense out of context or can be used to distort the book's original meaning entirely. (Such as biblical passages being used to justify nazism)

That's the biggest problem of having a book which some hold as sacred and the word of God. Exactly because people hold it as sacred, they say "the truth is there" and from there make themselves the exclusive "owners of the truth". It's very convenient to ignore both that we're humans, and therefore subject to gross interpretation mistakes and bias, and that the context was entirely different even if someone is to hold it as sacred...

I always thought Genesis 1: 24-25 covered all bases when it came to land creatures.

QuoteGenesis 1:24-25 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

(A: iii) 24 God said, "Let the earth bring forth each kind of living creature — each kind of livestock, crawling animal and wild beast"; and that is how it was. 25 God made each kind of wild beast, each kind of livestock and every kind of animal that crawls along the ground; and God saw that it was good.

According to the Septuagint which was the Greek version of the Old Testament which was used in the early Christian church the same verses read in translation; -

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creatures according to its kind, quadrupeds and reptiles and wild beasts of the earth according to their kind, and it was so. 25 And God made the wild beasts of the earth according to their kind, and cattle according to their kind, and all the reptiles of the earth according to their kind, and God saw that they were good.

And in Greek they read; -

24 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεός· ἐξαγαγέτω ἡ γῆ ψυχὴν ζῶσαν κατὰ γένος, τετράποδα καὶ ἑρπετὰ καὶ θηρία τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως. 25 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὰ θηρία τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος, καὶ τὰ κτήνη κατὰ γένος αὐτῶν καὶ πάντα τὰ ἑρπετὰ τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος αὐτῶν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ Θεός, ὅτι καλά.

And a modern translation taken at random says: -

QuoteGenesis 1:24-25New International Version (NIV)

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

All of which tells me that you have to be very certain of the accuracy and quality of the particular modern Bible translation you're quoting from because some of them can be very misleading and confusing indeed. 
Which is why when bigoted fan-boy christians wave bad translations of the Bible about as if they are a licence to hate others it just plain makes me weep.

Quote from: Beatriz on April 04, 2015, 09:38:43 PM
Maybe God just didn't find dinosaurs so majestic and important? His perspective is different from ours, after all, and His greatest living creation was the human being in the first place.

I do hold the Bible sacred, but I personally think it's impossible not to reinterpret it, as many parts either make zero sense out of context or can be used to distort the book's original meaning entirely. (Such as biblical passages being used to justify nazism)

That's the biggest problem of having a book which some hold as sacred and the word of God. Exactly because people hold it as sacred, they say "the truth is there" and from there make themselves the exclusive "owners of the truth". It's very convenient to ignore both that we're humans, and therefore subject to gross interpretation mistakes and bias, and that the context was entirely different even if someone is to hold it as sacred...

God created the dinosaurs, so of course he would have considered them to be "majestic and important", after all, he nurtured them for millions of years. And how long have humans been here? You stated " As for dinosaurs, they're mentioned in Genesis under land animals in general".  :laugh: 

You don't have an answer to the question, so you try to explain it away with generalities?  :laugh:

Quote from: kittenpower on April 04, 2015, 10:27:21 PM
God created the dinosaurs, so of course he would have considered them to be "majestic and important", after all, he nurtured them for millions of years. And how long have humans been here? You stated " As for dinosaurs, they're mentioned in Genesis under land animals in general".  :laugh: 

You don't have an answer to the question, so you try to explain it away with generalities?  :laugh:

I didn't really mean to answer your question, just gave a possible answer in the beggining of my post - read "possible answer", not answer -, as we were going by the principle of mutual respect in the first place. If so, I don't see much of a point in trying to change or challenge your opinion, or in you trying to change mine or belittle me in any way.

(some rude parts edited out)

Quote from: Lady Smith on April 04, 2015, 10:11:59 PM
All of which tells me that you have to be very certain of the accuracy and quality of the particular modern Bible translation you're quoting from because some of them can be very misleading and confusing indeed. 
Which is why when bigoted fan-boy christians wave bad translations of the Bible about as if they are a licence to hate others it just plain makes me weep.

I haven't studied it in detail at all, but I think "wild beasts, cattle and reptiles" would at least cover all bases for land animals according to the knowledge of the time.

And YES. The NIV actually goes as far as translating malakoi and arsenokoitai (or however those are written in actual or romanized Greek) in 1 Co 6:9-10 as "men who have sex with men", and the Portuguese/Brazilian version of that - Nova Versão Internacional - translates it as "passive and active homossexuals!"

The "effeminate" translation of malakoi in the same verses has been used against me personally in an attempt from a cousin of mine to tell me I'm wrong and created a man and etc., too. Okay, so suddenly transsexual women are just "effeminate men", and I have a whole family of 11 uncles/aunts just from my father's side trying to convince me of that? o.O

I'm no Greek or Bible expert, but from what little study of the matter I had those translations are so biased, homophobic and inadequate in all senses of the word they make me cringe every time I see them. What scares me the most isn't prejudice in itself, but how complex the mechanisms behind perpetuating it are.

 :police:

If you want to start a new topic feel free to do so.

I'm pretty sure the OP was looking for support in regards to their mother and not the spirituality of paleontology!

Cindy

Quote from: Beatriz on April 05, 2015, 12:38:21 AM
What does human time mean to God, who created it but is outside of it in the first place, and to whom a million years is but a second yet a second is as long as a million years? And if humans were in the same situation as dinosaurs when they faced extinction, they'd most likely have been able to avoid it with our current technology...

Whatever then, if you think you're less majestic or important than a dinosaur...

I didn't really mean to answer your question, just gave a possible answer in the beggining of my post - read "possible answer", not answer -, as we were going by the principle of mutual respect in the first place. If so, I don't see much of a point in trying to change or challenge your opinion, or in you trying to change mine or belittle me in any way.

You also ignored the only part of that post of mine that was on-topic .-.


I haven't studied it in detail at all, but I think "wild beasts, cattle and reptiles" would at least cover all bases for land animals according to the knowledge of the time.

And YES. The NIV actually goes as far as translating malakoi and arsenokoitai (or however those are written in actual or romanized Greek) in 1 Co 6:9-10 as "men who have sex with men", and the Portuguese/Brazilian version of that - Nova Versão Internacional - translates it as "passive and active homossexuals!"

The "effeminate" translation of malakoi in the same verses has been used against me personally in an attempt from a cousin of mine to tell me I'm wrong and created a man and etc., too. Okay, so suddenly transsexual women are just "effeminate men", and I have a whole family of 11 uncles/aunts just from my father's side trying to convince me of that? o.O

I'm no Greek or Bible expert, but from what little study of the matter I had those translations are so biased, homophobic and inadequate in all senses of the word they make me cringe every time I see them. What scares me the most isn't prejudice in itself, but how complex the mechanisms behind perpetuating it are.

I am not trying to belittle you; you were the first one to post the "laughing emoticon"

Quote from: kittenpower on April 05, 2015, 01:12:23 AM
I am not trying to belittle you; you were the first one to post the "laughing emoticon"

I used a tongue emoticon to express friendliness (and how I wasn't taking the subject seriously, as I didn't know at the time you were) and an "o.O" to express confusion, I guess you could've taken them as offensive though. Sorry if you felt it was so.

(Also sorry for my previous post, it was unnecessarily rude, I actually came back to edit just now hoping I hadn't started a fight yet...)

Quote from: Cindy on April 05, 2015, 12:55:19 AM
:police:

If you want to start a new topic feel free to do so.

I'm pretty sure the OP was looking for support in regards to their mother and not the spirituality of paleontology!

Cindy

Will do, miss Cindy :)
I apologize for the trouble and derailing.

Quote from: Cindy on April 05, 2015, 12:55:19 AM
:police:

If you want to start a new topic feel free to do so.

I'm pretty sure the OP was looking for support in regards to their mother and not the spirituality of paleontology!

Cindy

Oops sorry Cindy.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sherv.net%2Fcm%2Femoticons%2Fchristian%2Fgesturing-nun-smiley-emoticon.gif&hash=c9f685721b1a0173f8fba82fa9193842f3e1a27a)

Quote from: Lady Smith on April 05, 2015, 04:38:18 AM
Oops sorry Cindy.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sherv.net%2Fcm%2Femoticons%2Fchristian%2Fgesturing-nun-smiley-emoticon.gif&hash=c9f685721b1a0173f8fba82fa9193842f3e1a27a)

Isn't the discussion of biased translations of the Bible relevant to the topic still?
(Since it's a big part of what leads many Christians to misinterpret transgender issues so badly)

Yes it does have relevance, but the discussion was starting to get too far away from the topic itself.   Cindy is right, - a new topic specifically for discussing variations in the translation of the Bible is what is needed.

Quote from: Lady Smith on April 07, 2015, 01:35:43 AM
Yes it does have relevance, but the discussion was starting to get too far away from the topic itself.   Cindy is right, - a new topic specifically for discussing variations in the translation of the Bible is what is needed.

Okay :)

(PS: would you recommend any version of the Bible in English in regards to relative accuracy? I personally read the old King James's version, which came before the social concepts of homossexuality and has seemed accurate when I compare it to other translations and older Scripture versions. But is there any more recent one that's recommended? All I know is that the NIV's heavily biased, even if that holds true to most translations due to the nature of translating itself)



Well, let me try to go back to the topic at hand then.

This kind of rejection from fundamentalist Christians is really common, to the point many will unfortunately refuse to hear anything you have to say about it. It's been so with my family on my father's side, including my father - who said he "honestly doesn't see any difference between 'this' and homossexuality", and ran away from my house crying, saying he'd never see me again.

Other of my family members have contacted me on Facebook, always (except one cousin) with the same assumptions: that I am nothing and no one but the mask I presented to them, that I am fundamentally wrong according to them, to society, to TV, to the Bible and to everyone but myself, and that it doesn't matter what I say, they wouldn't change their mind. Everyone has said so explicitly.

So it matters what they say about the Bible. But if I say that said interpretation doesn't make any sense according to the original Greek, that God makes no distinguishment between man and woman or circumcised and uncircumcised, and that it's hyprocisy to want to judge something they know nothing about (to the point of thinking it's homossexuality), that doesn't matter!

It's what makes me feel the most awful about them: not that they never knew anything about it and are prejudiced, but that they refuse any attempt of dialogue, and only want to shove their "love" and "truth" down my throat. As of late, I am seriously considering never seeing any of them again, and perhaps I'll block them on FB too if they bother me any more...



Of course, I'm really lucky - if anything, I consider myself truly blessed - that I have a mother who accepts me and tries her best to understand and help me. That's what love is about. But the undeniable truth is that most won't react that way, and many of those will never at all consider changing their minds.

I don't know how your mother will act in the future, or if it is worth the effort talking to her (I guess you should at least try, but then again you must've tried already). Still, you being yourself and having the right to be yourself should take priority over anything else.

If a "family member" rejects you in such a way, and if said behavior is persistent, they're not truly your family. Those who don't know you are strangers, and those who make you feel pain for the sake of themselves feeling better, oppressors. It's unfortunate, and it will leave scars, but your family is who you choose it to be.

I don't know if you're Christian yourself (I couldn't stomach reading much of the OP). But if you are, I highly recommend you seek a trans-friendly church, and explain to them how you feel and how your family has been treating you. That will not only renew your faith, but give you a true, understanding family.



Mt 12:46-50: (from the NIV, but I reckon it's good enough for this part)
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Is 49:15:
15 Can a woman forget her nursing child And have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, but I will not forget you.

Nowadays's mothers have indeed been forgetting their children, but God is unchanging.

I'm a Christian and I believe that, while homosexuality and transgender folk probably were regarded the same now, it was for different reasons (as stated before). What really annoys me is the Sodom and Gomorrah argument, but I did find a nice little verse about that.
Ezekiel 16:48-50 KJV (from BibleGateway)
48 As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Christians say that the Bible is their sword and shield. I figure I ought to use it as well. No?

I have to say it..this has been a major problem to me.. for at least the last ten years or so..too much exposure to them..
Conservative christianity is the 21st century rendition of the pharisee sect!!!

Wow!! Finally said it!!! :angel:

I have always found that even ministers,preachers,when teaching from the bible, take a "topic" and pick out verses from everywhere that has reference to that. I struggle with this as you can take anything and read it for what it is instead of its context,where it is placed. Read the whole story surrounding the verse chosen to see its context. Most bibles will have a small heading prior relating to the context . For example the good news bible says "Jesus heals the blind man" in small letters then has ten or so verse relating to that.

Quote from: Lady Smith on March 23, 2015, 05:54:49 AM
It constantly amazes me that many folk who call themselves Christian forget about Mark 12:30-31.

At its heart Christianity is such a simple religion, - even a child can understand it!

There's another old religious principle which is worth bearing in mind and it's this.  'The measure by which you judge others shall be used to judge you.'
And John 8:7 also tells us concerning the woman caught in adultery; - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

So why do so many folk who call themselves Christian spend so much time judging other people?
As a Franciscan I take very much to heart St. Francis's teaching that, 'One should always preach the Gospel and only if it is necessary use your mouth '.

By the way "repentance" means to turn about and to leave your wrong-doing behind you.  As a Sister of Penance this is something that occupies my meditations and prayers on a regular basis.  That I haven't stopped being the woman I know myself to be yet should tell you that I know very well in my heart that being a trans-woman is not wrong-doing.

Tell your Mum to go work in a homeless shelter as a volunteer for a couple of months because she hasn't realised what Christianity is yet and she needs to learn.

I just came across this thread, and wow... this post is really the best interpretation of Christianity (or indeed any religion) that I have seen.

P.S. I am not Christian but went to a Christian school.

Religious people..like your mother are; what gives christianity a black eye. , Chases people (myself included) away from orginised
churches..and of course alienate family members..I don't think she is using Mother Mary or any other fine example of womanhood
as a role model..Or is focused on Christ's loving example. But; is instead influenced by a money and power hungry pastor that spews forth bigoted-hatred and self-righteousness.
But; Again majority rules?? Mmm..Is this a shinning example of christianity and love for your fellow man?? Of course tg's arn't
Included!!

Thank you for the responses everyone! All the information both relevant and off topic were interesting to read and very informative.  :)    I waited awhile before posting to see where the thread would go and honestly I'm very impressed on how useful it has become.  Though my mother will instantly shoot down the thread as "none believing satanists who need to read the bible" I will try to have her read some of these responses and ask her to follow the additional rules of the era she so often quotes.  The married to your rapist and such would be a good start I think...and if your wondering I still have not responded to her original message.

Also to answer a question regarding my personal beliefs in a previous post. Yes I am Christian, however I simply follow the ten commandments and not much beyond that.



An idea regarding the broad statements like "you will always be the man/woman you were born as regardless of your transition progress" from the bigots and haters.. Which is a response I often see when anything "trans" is involved. Haters also say things like god hates us and were going to hell etc etc.  Well today a thought occurred to me about this statement! I was pondering how these haters  are sooo focused on how we will always be that original man or woman in their eyes.  Then I asked myself, "if that is true then how can a transwoman be attracted to women only and be a sinner? Or how can a transman be attracted to men and be a sinner?" Because by their own frame of argument, neither of these two fit the "homosexual" bill they so often charge us.  Now looking past my horrid sentence structure; has anyone else thought about this or tried use information like this in a conversation?

I find it funny that people that cry "you haven't read the bible" actually haven't read the bible themselves, or at least from start to finish like a normal book. Though...whenever someone has said "You have no idea about <subject>" to me I actually knew a good deal about said subject. hmmm....

Anyway I've often wondered about that. Maybe it's still the whole "trying to be what they're not" thing. If so then I'd just shoot back that they have no authority on that matter.

Quote from: BenKenobi on April 25, 2015, 09:08:07 PM
I find it funny that people that cry "you haven't read the bible" actually haven't read the bible themselves, or at least from start to finish like a normal book. Though...whenever someone has said "You have no idea about <subject>" to me I actually knew a good deal about said subject. hmmm....

Anyway I've often wondered about that. Maybe it's still the whole "trying to be what they're not" thing. If so then I'd just shoot back that they have no authority on that matter.

I'm an atheist.. Not only have I read several translations of the Bible, I've also read modern english translations of the Koran and the Torah. Makes me an interesting person to argue with. I'm also just a phone call away from a university level biblical scholar - who has also studied the history of the period..