Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've been living as a full time transgender since 5th July 2011. I've had several attemps to get my doctor to percsribe hormone theapy, he has now agreed to refer me to a gender clinic who I'm sure will percribe some form of hormome treatment.

Only problem is, there is around a three month waiting list to be seen. Thing is I'm not a bad looking gal for my age, but so far as my skin is concerned, I feel I'm in a very bad place. I have TS friends and I'm resident DJ at Candy Girls, in London, so I see other transsexuals/transgenders who are on hormomes, and have a beautiful feminine skin texture. I just feel I want to do something now.

My question is, has anyone had experience of these non percription Natural Estrogen pills on the market, like do they work? Could I use them as a stepping stone until I can get on the rael thing.?  :( :( :(

My opinion is to save your money and time for the real deal. Trust me, I know how it stinks to have to wait, but don't risk your health on unproven and sometimes expensive supplements that are poorly regulated and controlled. :)

I'm getting great feminization on supplements, do your homework, and if you find yourself spending hundreds and taking handfuls of pills you're:

A: Using the wrong one,

and

B: Using it the wrong way.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on February 07, 2015, 08:53:42 AM
My opinion is to save your money and time for the real deal. Trust me, I know how it stinks to have to wait, but don't risk your health on unproven and sometimes expensive supplements that are poorly regulated and controlled. :)

I agree here.

I remember going through a 'natural' phase of my life. It's just wishful thinking based on junk science. I understand that you're wanting to take something that will hold you over the 3 months, but these supplements are called supplements because if they actually did anything measurable, the companies that made them would put them through clinical trials and they'd be called medicine.

Remember, natural simply means 'of nature.' Every pill you take, no matter if it's a big pharma giant or some holistic earthy supplement company, is made through chemistry. The difference is, one of those pills is FDA approved, went through clinical testing, and has proven efficacy as well as risks. The other is unproven to do anything, let alone what the label says, let alone whether or not it's harmful. Save your money.

Hideyoshi, with all due respect, and you haven't shown much to me with your comments, are you calling my breasts "wishful thinking"? I really think that discounting actual results is  the junk science here. Frankly, I find your post a bit insulting and demeaning. And you're spreading disinformation.

Hugs, Devlyn

For 3 months wait I wouldn't even bother with herbals. You may get some benefit out of it but when you're on full HRT you'll get even more benefit out of that instead.

Supplements will not give you the "T" in the 8 range and "E" in the 300 range I have now. Proof only real bioidenticals work. Besides that there is safety when being monitored by a physician for anything like HRT.

I did herbals for quite awhile when I first started and I did get some results, but the results were rather meager at best compared to when I got on my prescription for E and Spiro

But that's just how things worked for me, YMMV

 :police:

Hideyoshi and Devlyn Marie.

I am getting very tired of argumentative, snide comments and willingness to disrespect people.

There are ways to bring across alternative opinion in an open and honest way without disrespecting others.

Unless you find ways of doing this, you may be having time off to contemplate how.

Cindy
Forum Admin.

I tried herbals for a few months while I was getting my thoughts straight about being transgender, and I would strongly dissuade you from trying them.  While phytoestrogenic compounds do exist, the products containing them are untested and may contain ingredients that are frankly dangerous.  My liver function enzymes went to worrying levels, and the results from the products were meagre. 

A properly controlled hormone regime is not only safer and measurable, but also shows that you are taking responsible decisions. 

Not sure about natural supplements but I have seen with my own eyes the powerful effects that chinese medicine can have.  The problem is the dosage depends a lot on the skill of the practitioner.  That's why the most popular Chinese medicine doctors are the ones that have been born into a family of chinese medical doctors etc..To try and self medicate sounds like a risky business.

The phytoestrogenic compound I have tried are things like tea tree oil, fennel seeds, dong quai, fennugreek seeds and lavender oil.  I would get my wife to massage the tea tree oil al over my body and also the lavender oil(not at the same time).  I drank for a while the fennel tea and lots of soya milk.  Anyway I quit with the tea tree oil as it can sometimes burn your skin it you don't use enough carrier oil and I was paranoid about that. 

To be honest I am not sure if it has had much effect, probably very small.  My gynecomastia(boobs) have grown slightly though but that could be a coincidence and I have high prolactin levels.

I did for a while consider ordering some bovine ovaries...but i didnt want to develop into a mad cow  :D  also it turned out is it illegal to import them into UK and Australia etc...Anyway I am glad I didnt do that now and am just happy to wait to see my specialist that will hopefully get me started.

If anyone is considering seriously to transition it is more effective and responsible to get this stuff managed by a doctor that knows what they doing.  I am hoping I can get onto HRT by July(fingers and toes crossed).

Since supplements are not monitored by the FDA, there's an issue that overrides the question of whether they work - nobody is checking to make sure what they say is in there actually IS. Even if, hypothetically, a given herbal supplement was genuinely effective... a bottle claiming to contain that product might well have nothing but placebo ingredients. (It's cheaper, after all, to get people to pay full price for stuff that isn't the real deal.)  So the best-case scenario is a Russian roulette where each new bottle may or may not be genuine, and as a result you might be switching back and forth between any dose from zero to who knows how much more than what you should get.  That's dangerous.

"Big Retailers Ordered to Stop Selling 'Adulterated' and 'Mislabeled' Herbal Supplements"

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/02/major-retailers-ordered-to-stop-selling-adulterated-and-mislabeled-supplements/#.VNekXi7m4_g

News Desk, Food Safety News, February 3, 2015

"The New York Attorney General's office has ordered four major retailers — Walmart, Target, Walgreens and GNC — to stop selling "adulterated" and "mislabeled" herbal supplements that independent lab tests show do not contain ingredients as stated on the labels.

NY Attorney General Eric Schneiderman sent cease-and-desist letters Monday to the heads of all four companies demanding that they stop selling their store-brand herbal supplements because DNA barcoding showed that 79 percent of them either didn't contain the stated ingredient(s), or were contaminated by other filler materials such as rice and wheat to which some people might be allergic."

Those are big retailers and popular supplements; imagine how large the chance of fakery is for lesser-known products being sold to a desperate population like us.

Thanks all for your wonderful advise on this one, and especially to Devlyn Marie, as I really did want to go with the naturals and give them a second chance. However, some of your words in the other posts did set the alarms off.

Years ago prior to having my breast augmentation, I did try natural breast development pills, but for me they were a waist on money, I don't doubt that they can work for some of us out there, as we are all very much individuals. You did say Devlyn, to do my homework, good advise considering the negatives against.

Thing is, I had just as well be patience, and wait for the real thing, especially since I am a lazy cow, so trying to sort the wheat from the chaff could take a lot more than three months or so. I can see Jenna Marie's point, there are a lot of unscrupulous people out there.

I have also been so, so tempted to self prescribe HRT only to be put off by my good side on the very grounds of health risk. so I suppose that in the presumption that because pills are described as being natural, is quite a fallacy if on the other hand I am to presume they are safe to use, well that's to say if they are as powerful as one wants to believe. I also understand after watching Hannah Warg's "Ask A Transsexual" on YouTube, that via injection and jels prescribe local hormones are even safer as they don't pass through the liver. 

I've used natural occuring anti androgens and phytoestrogens at 15 and they definately worked unfortunately for me i wasnt ready to be myself then so i kinda freaked and gave up on them... but if something displays anti andro and pro estro ability i'd say they do have some effect although not as much as needed at my age of 33 i think i'm just too testy lol...

There is one supp out there that works (YMMV), and I have an inch lost on my natural waist and 3 inches on my bust line and breast tissue to prove it.  I'm now on pharma grade E/spiro under a doctors care and he has advised me to stay on the supp given the fullness of my breast growth.  E and spiro work great on the mind and body but what I tried first was a godsend for getting a huge jumpstart on my curves.


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The only thing I have ever taken away from any and all forums on cd transgender etc. don't wing hormones.  Do it right or not at all.  Anyway take your time. 

Do supplements provide hormones?

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Herbal supplements contain phytoestrogen.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens

Really it is just supplements, and no I don't recommend them at all.

From my endo's website:

Quote...some plants produce weak phytoestrogens, but they have no role to play in the feminization of transsexuals. However, a few – such the wild yam, for instance – do produce hormones capable of being converted synthetically into estrogens and progestins. (http://gendermedical.com/discussion/estrogens/)

It seems pretty clear that a GD diagnosis is still required for HRT. Crossdressers don't get that diagnosis to my knowledge. I want feminization, I want breasts, curves, and better skin. Supplements are how I have to go about it. I'm not going to lie to a medical professional so that they give me drugs no matter how much I think I need them.  No one should.

All I ask for on the site is not to be treated like a second class citizen for doing what I have to do. Legally.

Hugs, Devlyn

Actually, Devlyn, the WPATH SOC version 7 states specifically both that these are "guidelines" and not requirements and that "decisions are first and foremost a client's decisions."

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT%20SOC,%20V7.pdf

My impression is that the diagnosis of dysphoria is strongly recommended but not mandated.

Thank you, we have the SOC here and pdf files are awkward on my phone. https://www.susans.org/wiki/Standards_of_Care_for_Gender_Identity_Disorders

I've read the Standards pretty extensively, the word crossdresser is in them once. It states that some crossdresser, drag performers, and gender nonconforming people may be suffering from GD, indicating treatment.  But the GD diagnosis is still required as far as I can tell.

Hugs, Devlyn

Hi Devlyn Marie,

I am sorry many trans items are seen through transsexual filters. I understand your pain and wish I could do something to correct it. I agree supplements can supply and provide relief.

Respectfully ( I want to understand and mean no disrespect nor do I want to cause and displeasure) , if you say I want feminization, I want breasts, curves, and better skin. isn't that feeling unwell about you existing body? Would that not be GD? Regardless of how anyone labels you or another person, isn't what you are experiencing the feeling of unwell about you body? Shouldn't HRT be provided to provide relief?

hugs,

Cynthia

Maybe you're right and I'm misreading my own feelings, or the definition of dysphoria. Here's how I feel: I don't hate anything about my body as it is. I am pleased with the changes I'm seeing. I'm not sure that would fly in a doctor's office.

I routinely faint during blood draws, have no insurance, and basically assert my right to not seek medical procedures. The anxiety I face before a doctor's visit is brutal. I prefer a natural approach using herbs anyway.

Truthfully, my pain comes from the unthinking words of others here. Hopefully if I keep fighting these battles, everyone will be able to express what they do without fear of being judged.

Hugs, Devlyn

Thank you Devlyn,

I think providing the context helps a lot. I will remember your expeiance when communicating with others.

I fully understand your perspective and I wish I could make it better.

I cleaned the PCP floor with my last blood draw (doing it again Monday) and the 1st IM training.

Hugs Cynthia.

Devlyn : I am not at all trying to push you to do anything except what you want to do for yourself, first of all. But in case it matters to you, I felt much the same way about my body when I started HRT; I didn't hate anything about it, I just liked/wanted the changes more. (As time went on and everything else got closer to what I'd dreamed of, I began to hate the remaining male bits, but that was years later.) I think that if you wanted to call that dysphoria, you could, but of course you don't have to.

I also know of non-binary people having a much easier time of it under the SOC 7, including picking and choosing the medical treatments they want. My impression is that informed consent + informed providers + SOC 7 = much broader menu of possibilities in general.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on March 07, 2015, 03:08:52 PM
Devlyn : I am not at all trying to push you to do anything except what you want to do for yourself, first of all. But in case it matters to you, I felt much the same way about my body when I started HRT; I didn't hate anything about it, I just liked/wanted the changes more. (As time went on and everything else got closer to what I'd dreamed of, I began to hate the remaining male bits, but that was years later.) I think that if you wanted to call that dysphoria, you could, but of course you don't have to.

I also know of non-binary people having a much easier time of it under the SOC 7, including picking and choosing the medical treatments they want. My impression is that informed consent + informed providers + SOC 7 = much broader menu of possibilities in general.

If you don't mind me asking, what were the communications between you and your provider like? How and why was a decision made for you to take hormones?  If those questions are too personal, how's the snow doing? We're getting some melting here.

Hugs, Devlyn

Devlyn : Not too personal at all, but it's been a few years so I'm not sure about the precision of my memory anymore. :)  As I recall, she asked a bunch of questions about how I felt, and we talked about a lot of possibilities for what I could do or might want to do in the future. As time went on I became more and more certain that I wanted to start HRT, but to be clear, she was willing to write the letter/sign off on it on day 1 if I told her so. She said in the first session that she'd wait for me to tell her when I was ready, and in fact she did give me a letter well short of the 3 months' worth of sessions recommended by the SOC 6. The decision was definitely left up to me, though. She reiterated every time I saw her that she wasn't going to do more than rubber-stamp my choices, because I was "stable and well-informed and prepared for any potential consequences" (that I've quoted directly from the letter, which she emailed me so I still have it).  Now, admittedly, I found a fairly mellow and cooperative therapist, and she was walking the edge of what the SOC 6 recommended at that point. She did clarify later on that she judged me emotionally and psychologically healthy and prepared, with the implication that if she thought someone else was less so she would insist on more therapy before approving their letter. If that doesn't answer the questions you had in mind, I'll be happy to keep trying?

I was pretty clear that I considered myself on a path to transition, though, because I had significant social dysphoria even if not physical. So that part differs from your story as I understand it. (What we may have in common is that I wasn't sure I was "really trans" until AFTER I started HRT and realized I could never go back.) But she explicitly stated that she did not require a "real-life test" *or any immediate plans to socially transition* as a requirement for HRT. She had other patients who were doing low-dose HRT as effectively an antidepressant regimen or who wanted to do the "middle path" (apparently defined by them as living legally as male but cross-dressing and cross-living at least part-time outside of work). Between that and the fact that her own partner was non-binary and living publicly as an AMAB person on HRT but not female, it seemed clear that at least in this area it was possible to find medical providers willing to be flexible. Add to that the Fenway informed consent clinic that basically does a "sign this paperwork, we'll do blood tests, OK here's your HRT" method and I know quite a few people who didn't have to fit classic definitions of "transsexual with GD" to get treatment.  Which, honestly, is why I'm startled to hear that the SOC 7 might be more rigid than I've seen people living through...

(Snow is finally melting here, too!)

Thank you, that's good information. <cue the inside joke if my boss sees this post!  :laugh: > 

Between the anxiety about needles, the needles themselves, and the money to pay for the needles that I don't have, I'll be sticking with supplements for now anyway. I see results,  and the one I use is a regulated substance, it just doesn't require a prescription. The purity and strength are verified.

Hugs, Devlyn

Devlyn : Oh, heck, I almost passed out at the *mention* of injections. ;)  I hear you on the terror about needles!

Also, a regulated one is clearly a whole different animal. I didn't know there were any, but I'm hardly an expert - and obviously all my earlier caveats don't apply in that case.

Re:  WPATH SOC 7

Bear in mind that WPATH can say whatever it wants.  That doesn't mean that doctors have to follow it.  The bigger influences on physicians are likely to be their own feelings and the feelings of their insurance carriers, especially when it comes to loosening restrictions on treatment. 

The reports I've seen seem to suggest that actual implementation of SOC 7 is lacking, and that many (no, not all) physicians are still requiring a therapist's letter and a GD diagnosis rather than allowing informed consent. 

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 07, 2015, 03:36:41 PM
If you don't mind me asking, what were the communications between you and your provider like? How and why was a decision made for you to take hormones?  If those questions are too personal, how's the snow doing? We're getting some melting here.

Hugs, Devlyn

Hi Devlyn

I hope you dont mind me replying to this???

I started this journey with a similar mindset to yours... I used a very effective herbal regime for about three months and it felt more and more right as the changes occurred...  Like you I was scared to go to the doc because I wasn't sure at the time whether or not I wanted full transition, was just a TV/CD, not really TS ect... I made the decision to self med but while I was waiting for it to get here from overseas I decided to get a TS girl at a local TG support groups doctors info... I was scared and wanted to at least get blood tests and it helped at least knowing she had some experience with MtF HRT... I just set up an appointment and went in as an "andro guy"... I told her about all the herbal stuff I was on and my plans to self med HRT and asked for some baseline labs and if they were good could you just prescribe it and do my lab monitoring so I dont have to self med and do it safely??? She just asked a few questions like "do you want the surgery???".... At the time I wasnt sure at all so I just said I donno I just know I want to go off the herbal stuff and try the real thing... I did my labs and they were fine and a week later I was on legit HRT... No GD "diagnosis", not even informed consent, just a sympathetic GP doc ;) 

In time as things moved along I knew it was right for me and Ive never looked back ;D

Hope that helps and good luck!!!

Thank you, that's helpful.  I've been getting a lot of good input in this and my other thread.

Hugs, Devlyn