Susan's Place Transgender Resources

All right, I'm getting kind of tired of having this debate with people on my blog.

Basically, I am still really not happy with my appearance after 2 years of hormones. I still feel like my face is very mannish, to the point that it's causing me distress because I keep mentally going back and forth from seeing a girl in the mirror to seeing a man in the mirror. It's keeping me from feeling pretty, keeping me worried, and keeping me from just relaxing, knowing for sure that I'm accepted as if I was cis by everyone, and getting on with my life. Basically, I feel like my face is more androgynous than definitively-female, because it still has so many strong bony features.

There seems to be one camp who is adamantly against my own negative self-perception, telling me that I have nothing at all to feel bad about, and it's all in my head, and another camp who tells me that I could probably benefit from FFS.

All I know is, I need to be done with this. I need to look in the mirror and see a girl EVERY time instead of just maybe a few times a week when I'm feeling good in order for my brain to FINALLY settle down and quit stressing out about my appearance because I still don't feel like I'm seeing the girl that I should be in the mirror, I'm still seeing too much of my old male self.

So, honest opinions? Could I benefit from FFS?

I don't need ANYONE sugar-coating it. I've been on hormones for over 2 years at this point, and I've been full-time for almost 11 months. You are NOT going to hurt my feelings by telling me that my face is masculine if it is. I'm long past the point of needing my ego boosted. Even if I do look ugly and mannish to myself, even on my absolute worst days of self-esteem, I still go out EVERY single day presenting as myself, living as myself, going to work as myself, and I know by this point that I'm accepted as cis by everyone that matters in my life. So that is NOT the issue here. This is purely a matter of my own happiness. Do I have a right to feel like I need FFS to reduce the angularity in my face so that I can look more cis-normative and feel like I'm finally seeing a woman every time I look in the mirror, or am I just spinning my mental tires around over nothing? HONESTY. If my face could benefit from FFS, TELL ME.

Here's my front, profile, and 3/4-angle pictures, with a neutral expression on my face.

Front:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.tinypic.com%2Fae6qyt.jpg&hash=4bc26f5c91612a1d114d13274ef057ccf311dc60)

Profile:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.tinypic.com%2Frvakj4.jpg&hash=ecde5294b8d0c94631ceb4c5364f09d3febd7ced)

3/4 View:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi59.tinypic.com%2F2v96xs6.jpg&hash=bc7c7a298b093ec9a1fad4cd423380b77fc811b4)

Hi Carrie

Let me throw out a few thoughts to bounce around - First, looking at your avatar photo the look is very feminine - To me there are a couple of reasons for this - 1. You are smiling in the photo which always helps to round out the cheeks and 2. it is full frontal - In the "expressionless" photos the cheeks flatten and definition of the eyes and under nose/cheek line disappear which to me makes you look a little more masculine - the only "thing" that might need some help to me is the nose when seen from profile - frontal appears fine but from the side it just doesn't have a nice smooth curve from top to bottom - Of course I am not a doctor or aesthetician (don't play one on TV either) it is just one person's opinion - Please save the rotten fruit and stones for the really important disagreements

be well
jenifer

The surgery will feminize what you already have. Your level of comfort is the only thing that matters. Would you consider it a benefit to look more feminine, and what's it worth to you? What do you need? It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: jenifer_n on February 28, 2015, 03:00:54 PM
Hi Carrie

Let me throw out a few thoughts to bounce around - First, looking at your avatar photo the look is very feminine - To me there are a couple of reasons for this - 1. You are smiling in the photo which always helps to round out the cheeks and 2. it is full frontal - In the "expressionless" photos the cheeks flatten and definition of the eyes and under nose/cheek line disappear which to me makes you look a little more masculine - the only "thing" that might need some help to me is the nose when seen from profile - frontal appears fine but from the side it just doesn't have a nice smooth curve from top to bottom - Of course I am not a doctor or aesthetician (don't play one on TV either) it is just one person's opinion - Please save the rotten fruit and stones for the really important disagreements

be well
jenifer

That's the thing... I know I look female in my avatar photo. I'm wearing makeup in that picture, I'm smiling, and actually TRYING to look female. The thing that distresses me is that I feel like I don't look like a girl unless I am trying like that. Girls aren't supposed to look male just because they're not smiling, or just because they're not wearing makeup. Every single morning I wake up and feel like I'm having to deal with seeing a man in the mirror until I've fixed my hair and put on my feminine clothes. So really this is about the neutral expressions... looking female NO MATTER WHAT. And I don't feel like I do, I feel like it's conditional, while I want it to be unconditional.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on February 28, 2015, 03:35:04 PM
That's the thing... I know I look female in my avatar photo. I'm wearing makeup in that picture, I'm smiling, and actually TRYING to look female. The thing that distresses me is that I feel like I don't look like a girl unless I am trying like that. Girls aren't supposed to look male just because they're not smiling, or just because they're not wearing makeup. Every single morning I wake up and feel like I'm having to deal with seeing a man in the mirror until I've fixed my hair and put on my feminine clothes. So really this is about the neutral expressions... looking female NO MATTER WHAT. And I don't feel like I do, I feel like it's conditional, while I want it to be unconditional.

I know those feelings well. Once I have makeup on and my hair in the right place, I feel comfortable with my appearance much of the time. When I wake up in the morning, I don't even want to look at myself.

As for your pictures, I automatically identify you as female in all of them without any effort. I would say that you could probably benefit from FFS, in the same sense that there are plenty of cis women who would. If you need FFS to feel happy with what you see every day, then I would say go for it. I don't think you need it to be perceived as female by others, though.

I think your brow and nose would help a lot if they were done but I think your there right now...
I know all about seeing "him" too, I just had the full FFS/rejuvenation with Dr Spiegel...

You look feminine and passable, however, I think that you could benefit from FFS procedures, such as forehead, nose, and cheek implants. 

I think brow and nose and you will be totally there. But i think you passable now though, even without smiling and no makeup.


I agree with wanting to look female without any makeup no special fxs or angles.

I think you have one thing on your side, and that is age. Hormones can still have a positive impact while you're younger, or so I've heard.
I started hormones at 43, so I really think any changes I can expect are minimal at best. If I could afford FFS, I might consider it.

I think you look great, but it comes down to what you think you need or want.

Thank you so much, everyone. That, more than anything else, was what I was hoping to hear, because it makes me feel like I'm not crazy, that even though I do look passable, and probably don't NEED it, other people can at least see and recognize the things that I'm still not comfortable with.

I was starting to wonder if I was insane because people were constantly talking to me as if I was seeing invisible ghosts whenever I said I wasn't completely happy with my face.

Many thanks!

I have a hard time looking at photos on Susan's objectively because I already know I'm supposed to be looking at a trans person but... your photos in your post are great.  If I weren't looking at them on Susan's, I'd think you were an objectively attractive woman.

And... I don't know how you'll feel about this and it runs counter to what another person on this thread has said but I think they look far more cis than your avatar photo.  When you see somebody on here with full makeup, it's hard to tell but when you see pictures like in your post and that person still doesn't set off any alarms, that's way more valuable.  I wouldn't have "clocked" you even if we were standing next to each other.

As far as looking more feminine, that's up to you.  Most cis women out there could benefit from it because cosmetic surgeries, in general, are meant to make a person more attractive.  If that's why you are doing it, go for it.  Especially if it's bugging you.  But, based on those photos, I wouldn't do it for "passing" motives if I were in your shoes. 

If HRT treats me at least as half as well as it's treated you, I'll be happy.

My humble attempt:

Natural vs. Browbone & Nose vs. Full FFS

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcAyBGFn.png&hash=ab11061fa4d79396d79a0215a1e9569100333dce)

If you ask me, true that you have some bony features (a little bony nose brige, and perhaps a more noticeable brow bone and jaw contour). In the general picture, i see you ok, but i understand completely what you mean. Benefit from FFS? Think yes, but you can take it easy, no worries, no rushes. Maybe the biggest outcome could be a total rejuvenation (ie looking 5 or even more years younger).

I'll erase the pic on request. Not to mention this is just amateurish pshop :P

Carrie, first off I think you look lovely. My honest opinion is yes, some ffs would help, but that isn't remotely the same as implying the presence of neandertal features lol. You have a pleasant and friendly looking face, and there's nothing odd about it at all.

With that said, I want you to do something for me. Next time you're out, look for taller and larger framed cis women. You'll notice they usually have stronger and slightly more masculinized facial features, and personally for me one easy way to clock transwomen is a delicate doll face on a larger body frame, because imo it isn't uncommon for some transwomen to (understandably) be a little too obsessive about erasing every bit of maleness from their features, to the point there is no longer a holistic match between the face and body. And we have to be honest, almost all of us tend to run towards larger body frames for women, that's just the way it is.

Im having a little bit of work later this year, but im looking for refinement and not an overhaul, and I think the same philosophy would probably work for you.

As for the work for you, that really is going to be between you and your surgeon of choice. I, personally, would suggest you consider rhino, brow bossing, and bringing in  the corners of your hairline a touch. The corners of your jaw would probably need touching up as well to balance the work up top. But I honestly don't think you need to have someone go all super agressive on your either.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Great advice!

1. I recognise you as female in all of your pics, and an approachable one at that too.

2. Of the FFS procedures, I have a feeling a feminizing rhinoplasty (even as a sole one) would have the most beneficial impact on you.

Hugs.

First off, I always saw your profile pic as female.. totally..
If you do a consult for FFS yes they will give you several reasons to have FFS.  Thats what they do. 
I think you look great but almost anyone can improve their looks with surgery.
Many people did not think I really needed it that bad but I knew I did. and glad I had it done.
Dr. Z did mine and I love the dude and his staff.
Anyway its such a personal decision. If you want any Dr. recommendations from my research please PM me because I can not trash Dr.'s in public however in private I don't mind telling you what I think or giving advise.
Dodie

Carrie Liz, to respond to your question, I believe that you would surely benefit from some FFS if what you want is to look like a cisgender woman. You are pretty and feminine already, that's out of discussion, but FFS will allow you to see more frequently a (cisgender) girl in the mirror. As it was said here already, I think forehead and nose are first priority, followed by the jaw.

Hi Carrie,

I know you did not ask this but your lips and upper lip are beautiful and perfect.

I think you are overall very feminine looking.

As others said, if you need FFS for you then concentrate on nose and forehead.

CarrieLiz, my rule of thumb is this - Most transwomen don't need FFS, but most of us would benefit in some way from FFS.

You have a very feminine face and I would not see you as male on the street as a stranger. But I see your nose and your jawline being features that could be feminized. Your brow isn't as bad as some (not as bad as mine!) but could benefit if you wanted it done. But I also believe you could leave the brow alone and be fine.


One piece of advice, rather than thinking in terms of specific procedures, tell your FFS surgeon what facial features bother you and why. Then let them use their surgical and artistic experience (yes this is a kind of art form!) to make specific procedural recommendations.

Sorry, but I disagree, it has been my observation that most transwomen need FFS, and I really don't understand the negativity and denial about it.  Most cis women do not have large brows and sloping foreheads, sure some do, but they are exceptions and not the rule.

Your face wasn't the first thing I noticed. Jeluuuuuuuuuuuus !

You look feminine to me, I wouldn't gender you male. I think brow bossing removal and rounding the hairline would go a long way. :) your eyebrows are a bit overplucked! Try not to thin them so much as over arched and plucked eyebrows will make a face look longer.

^Wouldn't that also add emphasis to my brow bone, though?

Like, I'm really self-conscious about how masculine my brows look, and I have really thick, bushy, unfeminine eyebrows by nature, and every time they start growing too much I noticeably look less feminine to myself. Plus my eyebrows are the ONLY part of my body that I consistently get compliments on from other women, so I'm very reluctant to change them.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 11, 2015, 01:00:59 PM
^Wouldn't that also add emphasis to my brow bone, though?

Like, I'm really self-conscious about how masculine my brows look, and I have really thick, bushy, unfeminine eyebrows by nature, and every time they start growing too much I noticeably look less feminine to myself. Plus my eyebrows are the ONLY part of my body that I consistently get compliments on from other women, so I'm very reluctant to change them.

Maybe. But the face looking longer isn't very flattering. I think your eyebrows are good, but if you let them grow a little on the edge it will look more natural. Your arched eyebrows make you look a bit harsh. I think a straighter shape with a less sharp arch would be ideal. But you look great :)

Quote from: Carrie Liz on March 11, 2015, 01:00:59 PM
^Wouldn't that also add emphasis to my brow bone, though?

Like, I'm really self-conscious about how masculine my brows look, and I have really thick, bushy, unfeminine eyebrows by nature, and every time they start growing too much I noticeably look less feminine to myself. Plus my eyebrows are the ONLY part of my body that I consistently get compliments on from other women, so I'm very reluctant to change them.

I have that too. Have you considered electrolysis on your brows? Or even laser maybe?

Do you pluck often? I do and my eyebrows always look well taken care of and so I get compliments too. They do look nice and 'full' when they're plucked, but they look like ->-bleeped-<- if I don't pluck for a week.. The maintenance is exhausting.