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I've been having the worst luck lately with women & putting me in the friend zone. I'm constantly hearing that I'm nice, cute, sweet etc but they have no romantic connection. I'm pre-T with an androgynous look & when I was living in the closet as a lesbian I never had dating issues.

Now it's a whole different story & women view me as a female or not male enough. One girl I was talking to couldn't even use male pronouns. I thought it wouldn't be this challenging & some would look past this stage in my life to see the bigger picture, but it's not happening. And I see stealth guys having the same issues.

Do you guys experience the same feedback from the ladies?  When does it get better?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh-907SgPQY

First off, I'd like to debunk the term "friend zone" for you: there isn't such a thing. The Friend Zone is an imaginary realm misogynistic men made up in order to shame women who were expected to return their niceties and good behaviour as a trusted friend with sex, a relationship, etc. Never should a woman be expected to return your affection just because you're "nice, cute, sweet, etc." Besides, if they're not interested in you, you're fooling yourself in thinking that forcing the relationship would be a good idea, because without a spark or mutual attraction of some kind, the relationship isn't going to happen/last.

The best advice I have for you is to move on and find women that will actually be interested in you. Perhaps try a dating site (it could even just be Tinder) and be completely trans-parent (hah), so that the people actually messaging you are most likely interested in exactly what you're "offering." Best of luck to you!

I definitely don't expect anything for who I am as a person.  I have been in relationships where I initially didn't find them attractive but their personality eventually attracted me. This is where I'm coming from, not from an unrealistic expectation. And I do move on once I know where they stand. I was just curious to hear other stories. :)

Quote from: BORNTOFLY on March 08, 2015, 07:21:31 PM
I definitely don't expect anything for who I am as a person.  I have been in relationships where I initially didn't find them attractive but their personality eventually attracted me. This is where I'm coming from, not from an unrealistic expectation. And I do move on once I know where they stand. I was just curious to hear other stories. :)

Can't say I have any real stories, esp. not from a hetero POV (quite happily attracted to men), but I think it's safe to say I haven't had any real relationship in my life since... never. :laugh: Someone did ask me out recently but they were another trans guy, and I feel like he was more just asking me out for sex and because I was a fellow trans dude, rather than my personality; we don't really know each other all that well. I'm hoping once I'm more active in Portland, the motherland of progressive cultures, that I'll be able to 'up' my dating game while attending college there, but we'll see!

I'm sorry you've been having issues. I guess its just finding the right person. I know it hurts, but if someone doesn't respect you for who you are, then they are not worth being with. They don't deserve you. You'll find someone who sees and treats you as you are. Don't worry about being enough for someone, worry about someone being enough for you.

Quote from: nyrangers30 on March 08, 2015, 07:43:32 PM
Don't worry about being enough for someone, worry about someone being enough for you.

^This. If someone isn't going to fulfill your needs as they matter most to you, then another fish in the sea can and will, in time.  :)

Actually, I understand the friend zone to be quite different from what was mentioned above. It's more along the lines of where a woman befriends a guy but flirts with him as if she's interested in pursuing more than just a friendship however when he returns her advances or flirting she responds with the attitude of "Woah, back up. You can't do that, we're just friends". After that she strings him along and uses the feelings he developed for her to manipulate him.

It seems there's a new movement where it's so unthinkable that women would actually do this but I've heard plenty of girls, a couple of them friends, admit to it. They like the male attention so they lead a guy on just enough to keep him thinking he may have a chance with them. Most of those same girls also admitted to purposely keeping a guy "friend zoned" so they could have him waiting in the wings to fall back on if their current romantic relationship failed.

It doesn't sound like the OP is in a situation like this though so I wouldn't consider what he's experiencing friend zoning. It sounds more like the girls in his case simply aren't interested so they agree to be friends in order to break it to him gently. That isn't friend zoning.

Edit:

I also wanted to add that women get friend zoned too. My sister has been friend zoned by several guys and she even refers to it as friend zoning. The notion that only men do this is ridiculous.

While you're pre-T, you'll probably won't be seen as a man by girls, because you won't have those masculine markers (deep voice, body hair, pheromones..etc). If you ever plan on going on testosterone, you might have more success.

Good points bros. One girl who I stopped wasting my time on was a flirt leading me on. Girls like this exist & the red flags are there.

And true, girls get friend zoned too. I know it takes time & when I start T soon things will change. But it would be nice to meet someone & develop a friendship then more possibly. The special ladies are more rare :)

Quote from: AndrewB on March 08, 2015, 07:05:50 PM
First off, I'd like to debunk the term "friend zone" for you: there isn't such a thing. The Friend Zone is an imaginary realm misogynistic men made up in order to shame women who were expected to return their niceties and good behaviour as a trusted friend with sex, a relationship, etc. Never should a woman be expected to return your affection just because you're "nice, cute, sweet, etc." Besides, if they're not interested in you, you're fooling yourself in thinking that forcing the relationship would be a good idea, because without a spark or mutual attraction of some kind, the relationship isn't going to happen/last.

The best advice I have for you is to move on and find women that will actually be interested in you. Perhaps try a dating site (it could even just be Tinder) and be completely trans-parent (hah), so that the people actually messaging you are most likely interested in exactly what you're "offering." Best of luck to you!

Actually friendzoning is real, there are literallly some girls who will not date nice guys, I am in hs so I know there are some girls who just want a bad boy to turn good, I have been friendzoned because I am to nice, I hate when people thing its when you want something in return that's bs. Trust me there are certain things you just don't do if  you know you are romantically interested, and then you have some guys who never ask girls out, a girl even told me that a few weeks ago. If  you do friendly things and don't fliet or what not you will get friendzoned, all that means is they see you as a friend not like boyfriend material.

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2015, 02:45:49 PM

Actually friendzoning is real, there are literallly some girls who will not date nice guys, I am in hs so I know there are some girls who just want a bad boy to turn good, I have been friendzoned because I am to nice, I hate when people thing its when you want somethung in return that's bs.

If you're not someone's type, you're not someone's type. You don't consider yourself "friend zoning" everyone you're not mentally or physically attracted to, do you? It's a harsh double standard, in my opinion, to believe that a girl can't just be your friend if you're into her. There doesn't always have to be something more, and you're probably turning potential friends away with an attitude like that. Chemistry is a tricky business, and we're rarely in control of it, from a romantic perspective.

P.S. I'm in high school too, so it's not like I'm outside of the loop on this one.

Honestly I don't face as much rejection as I used to, and I am still a nice guy but even though I am a gentlemen, girls still like the other sides of me, which draws them toward me, but then again, its easy for people to see me as male, you gotta work on being seen as male first. And to start don't ever tell a female right off back or anyone at that, let people get a chance to know you, that way they won't be weirded out when you tell them, that's what I have been doing and people see me as anyother guy and half the time forgets  I am even trans.

Quote from: AndrewB on March 09, 2015, 02:54:11 PM
If you're not someone's type, you're not someone's type. You don't consider yourself "friend zoning" everyone you're not mentally or physically attracted to, do you? It's a harsh double standard, in my opinion, to believe that a girl can't just be your friend if you're into her. There doesn't always have to be something more, and you're probably turning potential friends away with an attitude like that. Chemistry is a tricky business, and we're rarely in control of it, from a romantic perspective.

P.S. I'm in high school too, so it's not like I'm outside of the loop on this one.

Actually dude I get girls just fine, that rarely ever happens, trust me being friendzoned does not mean I want sex in return,  it just means that your way to friendly to be looked at as bf material. Ask all my friends who are girls because half of them will tell you they have friendzoned guys lol and its not because they wanted sex literally it was because were to nice, not only that but half the time girls are usually interested alittle but you can't be to friendly with her, you have to flirt, or what my friends like to say spit game, and it doesn't have to be disrespectful either.

One key thing is also confidence girls love a man with confidence, that means keep your head held high. You have to work on that.

Quote from: AndrewB on March 08, 2015, 07:05:50 PM
First off, I'd like to debunk the term "friend zone" for you: there isn't such a thing. The Friend Zone is an imaginary realm misogynistic men made up in order to shame women who were expected to return their niceties and good behaviour as a trusted friend with sex, a relationship, etc. Never should a woman be expected to return your affection just because you're "nice, cute, sweet, etc." Besides, if they're not interested in you, you're fooling yourself in thinking that forcing the relationship would be a good idea, because without a spark or mutual attraction of some kind, the relationship isn't going to happen/last.

The best advice I have for you is to move on and find women that will actually be interested in you. Perhaps try a dating site (it could even just be Tinder) and be completely trans-parent (hah), so that the people actually messaging you are most likely interested in exactly what you're "offering." Best of luck to you!

So true.  It's called you are her friend but want more and when she doesn't reciprocate you cry and call yourself a victim of being "friend-zoned" when really she just rejected your advances because she doesn't think of you in that way.  It's ridiculous that some guys are so insecure and unable to take rejection that they have to make up stuff like the "friend zone".

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 09, 2015, 05:49:31 PM
So true.  It's called you are her friend but want more and when she doesn't reciprocate you cry and call yourself a victim of being "friend-zoned" when really she just rejected your advances because she doesn't think of you in that way.  It's ridiculous that some guys are so insecure and unable to take rejection that they have to make up stuff like the "friend zone".

Except that's not what friend zoning is. Guys have wrongly applied the term "friendzoned" to simply being rejected.

I'm sorry to hear that this is happening to you. When I was still living as 100% male I had the friend-zone problem. I had a real "bad boy" vibe going back then - long hair, black clothes, bad mouth, and a real case of ennui. Women flocked to me, only to discover that despite my rough exterior, I was actually quite the gentleman...which turned them right away from the idea of a relationship. A lot of women these days don't want a nice guy - they want a guy who treats them like crap and ends up turning their life into a Lifetime movie. But have faith! As I found out, you don't need women like that in your life anyways, and there IS someone out there who will treasure that niceness, someone who sees it the way it is and gets sick to their stomach at the thought of you acting like other guys. Just relax a little. Try not to focus your energies so much on that.

As far as feeling like maybe you're not man enough...you're a man if you damn well say you are. That's all there is to that. Someone takes issue with that? Screw 'em.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 09, 2015, 05:49:31 PM
So true.  It's called you are her friend but want more and when she doesn't reciprocate you cry and call yourself a victim of being "friend-zoned" when really she just rejected your advances because she doesn't think of you in that way.  It's ridiculous that some guys are so insecure and unable to take rejection that they have to make up stuff like the "friend zone".

You have that definition all wrong smh the both of you.

Quote from: Contravene on March 09, 2015, 06:24:05 PM
Except that's not what friend zoning is. Guys have wrongly applied the term "friendzoned" to simply being rejected.

This is literally the definition per the wiki page:

QuoteIn popular culture, friend zone refers to a platonic relationship wherein one person, most commonly a man, wishes to enter into a romantic or sexual relationship, while the other does not.  If a desired party does not return or respond affirmatively to the advances or affection of the desiring party, but continues to participate in the friendship in a platonic way, it is sometimes described as friend-zoning.

What you describe in your first reply is called manipulation. 

Quote from: StrykerXIII on March 09, 2015, 06:38:22 PM
A lot of women these days don't want a nice guy - they want a guy who treats them like crap and ends up turning their life into a Lifetime movie.

This phrase basically sums up a common way guys place uncalled for blame for not being liked back on the women who just want to be friends.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 10, 2015, 03:45:34 AM
This is literally the definition per the wiki page:

In popular culture, friend zone refers to a platonic relationship wherein one person, most commonly a man, wishes to enter into a romantic or sexual relationship, while the other does not.  If a desired party does not return or respond affirmatively to the advances or affection of the desiring party, but continues to participate in the friendship in a platonic way, it is sometimes described as friend-zoning.

It seems some people here misunderstand how the friend zone is used by the "friend-zoner" though. The sole purpose of the friend zone is to manipulate the person in that zone while that the person "continues to participate in the friendship in a platonic way."

The friend zone can only exist when the "friend-zoner" has given the other person signals that there may be potential for more than just a friendship between them. If there haven't been any sexual or romantic signals between both parties then it's simply a friendship and there's no need for either person to be in the friend zone.

The only time I hear of the friend zone being used to refer to whiny men who can't handle rejection is when militant radical feminists are attempting to make men seem like misogynistic pigs who can't control their sexual urges or when guys are "white knighting" which is another term I think everyone should look up.

::)

OK Guys lets not get too bullish?

Please?

Cindy

The term friend zone exists because because the guys using the term think a girl being friendly is her giving signals of interest.  They are under the belief that if they are nice to a girl who considers them a friend that they are somehow owed more.  The OP even describes just that.  Girls thinking he is nice and sweet does not mean they are interested.   It doesn't even hint at what you described as the "friend zone" (really just manipulation, no need for a special name for that).  I've never seen a girl use the phrase friend zone when a guy manipulates her.  That's pretty telling about the origin of the phrase.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 10, 2015, 03:45:34 AM
This is literally the definition per the wiki page:

What you describe in your first reply is called manipulation. 

This phrase basically sums up a common way guys place uncalled for blame for not being liked back on the women who just want to be friends.

Even girls say they have friendzoned guys so that's a invalid arguement, you don't even need to ask a girl out to get friendzoned. She could very well be interested but as a female friend of kind mine said some guys get friendzoned because they never actually ask a girl out.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 10, 2015, 06:24:02 AM
The term friend zone exists because because the guys using the term think a girl being friendly is her giving signals of interest.  They are under the belief that if they are nice to a girl who considers them a friend that they are somehow owed more.  The OP even describes just that.  Girls thinking he is nice and sweet does not mean they are interested.   It doesn't even hint at what you described as the "friend zone" (really just manipulation, no need for a special name for that).  I've never seen a girl use the phrase friend zone when a guy manipulates her.  That's pretty telling about the origin of the phrase.

Go back to highschool, girls use it a lot, trust me some of my female friends have.

Sure, Wheat thins...

I suppose we're viewing it from two different perspectives and I respect Cindy and her request so I'll leave it at that.

Quote from: Contravene on March 10, 2015, 06:39:37 AM
Sure, Wheat thins...

I suppose we're viewing it from two different perspectives and I respect Cindy and her request so I'll leave it at that.

She said not to get too bullish, not that we couldn't have a discussion... but ok.

Quote from: Brandon on March 10, 2015, 06:28:44 AM

Go back to highschool, girls use it a lot, trust me some of my female friends have.

Meh, I've been to high school and while it's true that some girls manipulate guys just as some guys manipulate guys, that's just what it is, manipulation.  When guys use the term friend zone it has a far different meaning that what you seem to  believe it does.

I understand the friend zone is a hot topic for debate and people have different views about it, but can we remember why this forum was made? Because our brother needs help and dating advice. Can we get back to that?

Terms and phrases have different meanings depending on where you are coming from. A younger person is going to think something different than an older person, someone from one region is going to interpret things to mean something different from another region. That's how language works. I think we can all agree that any guy or girl who does something solely to get something out of someone else is a selfish jerk, and that people don't owe each other sex in exchange for kindness.

Back to the OP: Its very likely that you are just finding the wrong people. Dating can be hell in general and its harder when we don't match the expected image. Are you looking in places where people share your interests? I've been out of the dating game for a long time, but I have certainly gotten my fair share of dating offers from men and women in recent years. Most of them I met either through work or through social events or volunteering.