Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I recently read an article in The Guardian that asked "If transwomen have to hide to be safe, what does progress look like?" (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/06/trans-women-hide-to-be-safe-what-progress-look-like)

This made me wonder how people here at Susans feel about passability.

What drives us towards wanting to pass and is safety a consideration in that for you? How large a consideration is it versus just wanting to be accepted (assuming acceptance/non-acceptance without violence)?

I'm really curious about how others feel.


For myself, the safety aspect of passability is only a very small component, but I admit it is there. With most people, passing will simply avoid unwanted stares, rude remarks, or refusal to interact. But with a tiny few, not passing can result in physical violence.

How do you feel about your own situation?

I know many non-passable trans women. None of them have reported issues with their safety, even those that live in tougher parts of town. I don't see passability as primarily a safety issue. I pass because I like people I encounter to see me as a woman, not a woman^*. If they don't know I'm trans, they don't have a choice, right?

If I'm in a place that would not be safe for trans women, I don't think of my passability as a shield. I'm only one wig slip from instant clocking.

Being that I've been harassed, surrounded, and threatened by large groups of kids, simply for being trans, I would say yes, "passing" does grant a person some degree of safety. However, being catcalled can also be scary and dangerous. And it can be even more dangerous once they figure out you're trans.

However again, when I do "pass," and guys flirt with me in a sweet way, it's a real morale booster. :)

I think it depends on location. The tales of bigotry and violence that seem to be common in the USA would land you in jail over here. That is not to say that there is not prejudice or that the UK is some sort of trans paradise, but the antics of bathroom bills, southern baptists, hostile police and people yelling "->-bleeped-<-got" in your face just do not occur over here.

Trans people are protected in law and aggression towards a trans person is considered a hate crime and increases the sentence/penalty handed out by the courts. Maybe the USA needs a similar approach to help change public perceptions. I was horrified to find that many states have no protections and some are removing the ones they do have.

I think it can offer up as much safety as a cis woman can have... which isn't much really.. I think. So that's sad. But it will prevent harassment for being trans.. or whatever an assailant might see a transwoman as.

Safety is a small concern for me but not an overbearing one.

Why do I want to pass, and why am I happy when I do pass? Because people respect the authentic me. No other reason, really.

I think too much passability can lead to more risk in some situations as some guys will be attracted, then get pissed when they find out what you are. They'll feel like you deceived them or tried to trick them into something. Not saying that there aren't drawbacks to being non-passable, just that being passable can cause some issues in some situations.

Wow.  This is a very good question.  I have not consciously considered this, but now that you have brought it up, I realize that the question has existed in my subconscious mind for most of my life.

Now that I think about it, I do believe that "passing" (or blending in) does offer me a sense of safety and security.  I'm not simply referring to safety from physical violence, but rather safety from discrimination also.  When it comes to employment and housing, friendships and social interactions (such as the pool league that I belong to), passing creates a veil of safety between how people see me and treat me today, and how that might very well treat me differently if they knew that I have a trans history.  Passing protects me from the judgment and bigotry of small minded, mean individuals that I might encounter as I move through the daily activities of my life.

The sad truth of it is that "passing" is just another closet that I moved into after I came out-of-the-closet as a trans woman all those years ago.  Granted, the clothes and shoes are way nicer in this closet, but I remain "in the closet" never-the-less. 

Does realizing all of this make me want to reverse my decision to live a life of stealthy privilege?  No.  No it doesn't.  I'm just a girl who wants to live and love as unmolested by the bigotry of others as can be expected.  I feel as though I've earned that much.  At the same time, I do pray that the day will come within my lifetime that hate and bigotry towards trans people is unheard of.  We aren't there yet.  Until that day comes, I shall remain safe in my little closet of passing privilege.

Quote from: marsh monster on March 09, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
I think too much passability can lead to more risk in some situations as some guys will be attracted, then get pissed when they find out what you are. They'll feel like you deceived them or tried to trick them into something.

Blaming the victim? How dare those trans-women look so normal that guys are being "tricked"?

The guys need to learn to walk away if the girl is not for them - trans or otherwise.

Quote from: mgbdyy on March 09, 2015, 01:50:37 PM
Blaming the victim? How dare those trans-women look so normal that guys are being "tricked"?

The guys need to learn to walk away if the girl is not for them - trans or otherwise.

how often have you heard a guy say something disparaging about a woman because she turned him down?  too often, like calling them a whore, bitch or whatever. When in reality she was just likely showing good judgement, but due to their ego...


And that is also when many people who are otherwise "supportive" will out you in a heartbeat, because they don't want someone to be "fooled" by you. I have had that issue a lot where I live so I just automatically shoot them down without even pausing.

It helps with safety to an extent. In my prehrt days before I was passable I definitely didn't feel safe going out in public if it wasn't a safe space since a lot of the time I'd have lots of staring and would be made fun of. I never ever traveled alone back then either so I think that helped deter any potential situations. Fast forward to now, its not even a worry anymore. There isn't any stress over someone clocking me either. I just live my life, the trans stuff is just in the background now.

I think in regards to dating its a different story. It's why I don't date guys since a lot of the attacks happen during intimate encounters. Once I'm post op I'll probably start dating men but until then I just won't risk it, let alone flirting with a guy. If I lived in a more progressive area I would consider it but living in the south no way, especially since I'm a woman of color. I'll stick to dating women for now.

I've been feeling pretty good about being accepted lately, but this doesn't necessarily mean "passing" as many have pointed out on this board.

Still, I wasn't thinking about passing much until recently, when Republican Rep. Frank Artiles introduced his ill-considered Florida bathroom bill. Now I'm nervous going into the women's room, and have to stop and wonder if I pass before entering. Actually, entering either restroom is now a safety concern.  :(

It feels like I'm losing ground, being dragged back into transition stuff I already dealt with. 

Thanks for nothing, Frank.   >:(

Passing brings up other safety issues, the kind that all genetic women face by virtue of being female. :-\

Quote from: Ms Grace on March 09, 2015, 10:52:54 PM
Passing brings up other safety issues, the kind that all genetic women face by virtue of being female. :-\

Exactly this! Hence my Other vote. Non of my female friends ever felt "safe" under the usual circumstances for all women. Hell! Even my 6ft big everything self hardly felt "safe" walking or driving in certain areas or in other circumstances. And that is in male mode.

Yes, "passing" does afford us some level of protection from the knuckle dragging low life yahoo's, both male and female, out there. But that is just an illusion on several levels. Sure instant target/clocking is bad.

But.... look around at the world. What is "Passing"? It is an ideal image of of a woman that most to about all cis-women cannot live up to. Think back to those halcyon days of high school, AKA HELL, all the teasing and bullying against anyone "deemed" different by the pack leader.

Sadly, there are way too many very angry people in the world today that like to lash out at anything they feel safe to. Women have always been prime targets. Trans women are about as low in the pecking order as one can get. AKA a very safe target for your anger. Hell, even the cops mostly don't give a rat's ass unless we get killed.. maybe.

I know I never have been nor never will be "safe". I try not to let it rule or interfere with my life

I think our world, while being aware of bullying and safety issues, is far from safe for many people. Growing up, I was not safe from either side of the gender divide, and it had nothing to do with being trans (at that time I didn't even know!). I wasn'teven safe one year at my own birthday party. I have blocked out the event, but the girls I invited to my sleep over bullied me in my own home, which - of course - horrified my father. One would think one was safe in one's own home, but in my desperation (I remember that feeling over the years) to have friends, even ONE good friend, I allowed myself to be bullied even there.

Really, safety equates to safety. Passability may help to lessen the threat level for some, but really... what we need in the world today is acceptance no matter how you present. This will take a looooong time to come.

Quote from: ImagineKate on March 09, 2015, 01:04:07 PM
Safety is a small concern for me but not an overbearing one.

Why do I want to pass, and why am I happy when I do pass? Because people respect the authentic me. No other reason, really.

exactly. I want to stay as safe as I can of course, and I don't pass whatsoever now, but I try to do little things to appear more male just as a confidence booster. passing is my goal because I want to be seen by others in the way I see myself.

as I'm still seen as a girl, that brings up more safety issues when walking outside than me being trans and passing or not passing does. because oh my god, catcalls and harassment are terrifying

It's really interesting to see the range of thoughts here, that some are not concerned at all, that some were consciously concerned, and, most interestingly to me, that some were subconsciously concerned but hadn't consciously considered it until being asked.

There's such an interesting variety of opinions here!

I think passing does help, but I think much of it is in our confidence.

For many our confidence is tied to our mental image of ourselves and having people constantly mis-gendering you or being uncomfortable around us does not help our mental image.

If you act like you belong the odds of people ever giving you a hard time are much lower than if you keep glancing side to side making sure nobody clocked you.

In guy mode, I never feel safe anyhow because I am incredibly short and only weigh about 120lb.  No matter where I would go, guys are always towering over me.  As a woman I hope to pretty much avoid men all together whenever possible.

Passing or stealth really only protects you from trans-hate crimes as long as somebody doesn't know, but passing can attract dangerous situations too, so it is a really hard question to answer.  Personally, I'm not sure what is the best in general.  The best thing is to avoid dangerous situations all together.

Other,

It depends on the situation. I am a tall woman, few guys are interested in tall woman because they seems to be intimidating or men think that we want a taller guy and therefore think we aren't interested. I call that an asset, because I can walk everywhere I want without the risk of being a tiny and therefore easy target, so the fear of being raped is smaller than let's say a petite woman. That's just physics. LOL.

When stealth, I think the risk of violence is greater because we have a secret. When you don't pass (or don't pass yet!) this risk is smaller, maybe because they notice you are trans and leave you alone. But then again, it can also turn against you in the case of transphobia. But when you are passable, and guys find out, they might resort to extreme violence, whereas if they date you and know you are trans on the looks of it, the secret is  already out in the open.

So I don't think that passability equates to safety that easily...

I like to add: Many females learn (either through hard lessons, or advice from other females) that you have to be very careful with guys. Men think completely different than females, and have other instincts than females. Men can resort to violence much easier than we would ever think. Sometimes I forget that myself, but I must remember it because it can save my life one day. Be careful around men. that also applied to cis-woman. So it's a valid concern.

In my area there are 4 MTF girls.  2 are not passable, and everyone knows about them.  2 of us are very passable and almost nobody (other than SO's) know.  The 2 that are not passable get harrassed in stores, made fun off, etc.  If they go into the womens bathroom there is a huge scene and commotion.

The 2 of us who pass, never get looked at oddly, are accepted fully.

So for me, I do feel safer being able to "pass".  That equals safety.  The deep south is full or redneck bible thumping bigots who would like nothing more than to get the  pervert (their words not mine). 

I believe it helps, but only as far as any woman is safe today... Stay with groups and friends... IMO

L Katy

Quote from: 2cherry on March 21, 2015, 11:08:13 AM
Other,

It depends on the situation. I am a tall woman, few guys are interested in tall woman because they seems to be intimidating or men think that we want a taller guy and therefore think we aren't interested. I call that an asset, because I can walk everywhere I want without the risk of being a tiny and therefore easy target, so the fear of being raped is smaller than let's say a petite woman. That's just physics. LOL.

Fortunately I pass very well especially considering I'm 6'7". Compared to my wife who is 5'4", I get hit on a lot more than she does. Many times right in front of her. I even had one guy continue to hit on me after asking if I had a boyfriend, I told him this was my wife. I find this more common with taller men. It could also be a regional thing to. In the Northeast US (NYC area) I get hit on more than she does. However when we were down South in TN, she got hit on more than me on our last trip.

I do feel that passing does create more safety. I ride the NYC Subway and PATH trains all the time and have never had an issue with being harassed as trans. I did have some guy cup a feel on my butt once and and I yelled at the guy in a feminine voice to keep his hands to himself very loudly on a crowded subway train and he moved away from me quickly. (Warning Possible Trigger Here) The same thing happened to another trans woman I know and she doesn't pass as well and her voice is normally very good, but it come out male because she was shocked. It quickly turned into her being harassed for being trans and was called by the guy who pinched her as all kinds of horrible names. Luckily the next stop was hers and she got off and nothing physical happened.

Basically I have only went out late at night before I was told I passed pretty well, and I never expierenced any safety issues, but I am pretty sure no one aside from the people who card me for alcohol really seem to know in everyday life.

I feel the likelihood of danger to be less if I am passing but I mainly worry about it for my own narcissistic self imagine. Still it does feel lots safer to me now that I know I pass pretty well.

The times I have felt actually threatened, I was passing.  Ofc the fear was heightened by panic I felt that this already dangerous situation could take a turn for the worse if I were discovered to be trans.  So in that case, passing did not make me safe, it made it much more dangerous, but then again if I wasn't passing I could have evaded that ordeal, but then I might walk three blocks down the road and get trans-bashed by somebody else or something.  I don't know.  Being female, or actually, I would say, being feminine, regardless of gender or sex, is dangerous in this world.

I do not know how much my fear is out of proportion with reality.  I feel like, honestly life is a lot safer than it feels like it is.  Part of the problem is all the scary stories we read about make us afraid of the bogeyman, and part of it comes from actually being in a couple situations where I legitimately felt frightened and then letting that feeling of violation just really run crazy in my mind afterward.

I do believe it does as you would fit typical gender roles and as such you are treated as your gender whether that is situational safe is the same for every person of that gender at that time. Not passing opens you up to peoples prejudices and belief systems which can be dangerous to benign depending but it is an extra level of risk that is potentially totally open ended at best to how things turn out. You may need to use more caution than you normally would and in the end some people are totally okay with this and others are not.

I don't think that passing equates safety.  I  think it's much more complicated that that.

Passing may increase safety, but even that can be conditional.

I remember a time when a man grabbed me on the street, not knowing I was trans. At the time my voice was not passable and I called out for help and for him to stop. It was broad daylight on a busy street. In that moment everyone clocked me and he became more angry and passersby became uninterested in helping--people stepped around us, suddenly very intent on staring at their feet. To this day if I were attacked again I probably wouldn't call out for help. Is that safety?

And what about those of us whose primary battles will be with ourselves? I think that being passable will make other areas of life easier, and so may help, but ultimately cannot save you.

Quote from: spooky on March 29, 2015, 06:36:23 AM
I don't think that passing equates safety.  I  think it's much more complicated that that.

Passing may increase safety, but even that can be conditional.

I remember a time when a man grabbed me on the street, not knowing I was trans. At the time my voice was not passable and I called out for help and for him to stop. It was broad daylight on a busy street. In that moment everyone clocked me and he became more angry and passersby became uninterested in helping--people stepped around us, suddenly very intent on staring at their feet. To this day if I were attacked again I probably wouldn't call out for help. Is that safety?

And what about those of us whose primary battles will be with ourselves? I think that being passable will make other areas of life easier, and so may help, but ultimately cannot save you.

In your case, a passible voice when yelling (it does take practice to get it) would have made a big difference just like the Subway incident comparison in my previous post. However, just being a woman we are less safe than a male walking down the street. I don't worry about being attached on the street because I'm trans, but I do worry as a woman no differently than a cis-woman walking down the street. I do have a martial arts background and being 6'7", even as a woman, I'm less likely to be attacked. I have been sexually harassed in public several times as a woman and every time I was mentally prepared to fight back if I had too.

Personally Passability may help, but if you're walking alone (females) your risk is higher, if they clock you as being TG your risk is heightened again... To be safe you must not expose yourself to risk, however it's not really a 100% safe world, right... Regardless whether you pass or not

Just my rambling thoughts (someone who needs to be as passable as possible, but for my own reasons)

L Katy  :-*

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on March 29, 2015, 11:21:46 AM
In your case, a passible voice when yelling (it does take practice to get it) would have made a big difference just like the Subway incident comparison in my previous post. However, just being a woman we are less safe than a male walking down the street. I don't worry about being attached on the street because I'm trans, but I do worry as a woman no differently than a cis-woman walking down the street. I do have a martial arts background and being 6'7", even as a woman, I'm less likely to be attacked. I have been sexually harassed in public several times as a woman and every time I was mentally prepared to fight back if I had too.

My point was that even with a passable voice--which is where I'm at now--I couldn't. This incident will always linger in the back of my mind and whisper, "Just in case..."

Quote from: spooky on March 29, 2015, 06:36:23 AM
I don't think that passing equates safety.  I  think it's much more complicated that that.

Passing may increase safety, but even that can be conditional.

I remember a time when a man grabbed me on the street, not knowing I was trans. At the time my voice was not passable and I called out for help and for him to stop. It was broad daylight on a busy street. In that moment everyone clocked me and he became more angry and passersby became uninterested in helping--people stepped around us, suddenly very intent on staring at their feet. To this day if I were attacked again I probably wouldn't call out for help. Is that safety?

And what about those of us whose primary battles will be with ourselves? I think that being passable will make other areas of life easier, and so may help, but ultimately cannot save you.

My situation was similar, only I didn't give myself away to be trans.  It was on the almost full train, and people still were looking at their shoes and not helping.  He didn't grab me, but his hands were on me and he was saying inappropriate things and violating my space and his friend was kind of egging him on, and blocking me in so I couldn't get away if I wanted to.  I just smiled and tried to say what I thought he wanted to hear and when his stop came it felt like hours later, miraculously he and his friend left.  Then, everybody was asking me if I was ok and told me they would have protected me if he didn't leave me alone.  Yeah, sure.

So being perceived to be cis doesn't mean people will help you.  Though I'm sure if you're perceived to be trans there's even less hope.

Anyway, I very much agree with how you assess it.

Look at statistics.

Fifty-three percent of transgender respondents to NTDS have been verbally harassed or treated disrespectfully in places of public accommodation, and 44 percent have been denied service because of their transgender identity.

Twenty-two percent of respondents who have interacted with law enforcement officers have been harassed by them, 20 percent have been refused assistance, 6 percent have been physically attacked by an officer, and 2 percent have been sexually assaulted by an officer. Transgender people of color faced higher rates of prejudice and violence, with up to 38 percent reporting harassment by officers.

Seventy-seven percent of transgender people have felt physically unsafe in public.

Twenty percent of transgender people have experienced discrimination in a social service agency, from both clients and staff.

On top of these high rates of discrimination and prejudice, transgender individuals also experience high rates of sexual violence. According to several studies, more than 50 percent have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives.

In examining reports of hate crimes against transgender people, researchers found that 98% of all "transgender" violence was perpetrated specifically against people in the male to-female spectrum;



In the United States, an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes; an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate. An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences. The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.




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It looks like passability does help to some extent but its definitely not a silver bullet.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/

http://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/about_why.html

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

Ty for that, it's good to have it quantified.

50% of trans women have been sexually assaulted, where for women as a whole its more like 1/5, I've heard.  That is a significant difference to say the least, but both numbers are very bleak and shameful.