Susan's Place Transgender Resources

QuoteDear Uncle Shawn, I deleted you from my friend list because of what you are about to undergo and what you profess. I know from God's word that it is wrong. I say this in all love, but I cannot with good conscience act like it is okay.

It says in Psalms 139:13-17: "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!"

How can you say you are not a man and undergo procedures to change yourself if God has created you? When you do this, you are declaring that God made a mistake, but he is a perfect God (He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He. -Deuteronomy 32:4) so it cannot be that you were "made wrong". It also says in Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. " It is wrong to be lustful and physical in an intimate way with another man. Finally, it says in I Corinthians 6:9-11: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

I don't know if you've gotten this far down or not, but I hope you will consider the word of God before you make any decisions you might regret. You must come out of this before you can become a part of the people of God. I love you so much, and if you would like to have some bible studies, I am open to it.  I hope you have a wonderful day!

My Response to my niece on facebook was:

Quote
I did not say i was not a man Aubrey, i am intersex and two spirit , i have an actual physical condition that happens at birth that makes me a blend of both genders. It happens to about 1 in 500 babies. Many Native American tribes had children also in this fashion and gave them the love and affection they needed and embraced who God made them to be. Also I am not a gay male. Not that it matters but I am and have always been attracted to women. I feel wonderful on hormones now and having estrogen in my system has helped my mind have peace and has even helped with my bi polar symptoms. I am sorry you don't want to stay in touch with me now and that hurts my heart because I do love you and your family, even though your parents did not stay in touch with me. God Bless you my niece.

So I am pretty taken aback as I had just reconnected with my niece (my brothers daughter, one of them) (I have 3 brothers and 2 sisters)  and The family on my bio dad's side had never really seen to keep in touch with me anyways even after i met them in 2002.

I think the statement that stings the most is the one I bolded in her comment. But she was and is raised in church of christ, the very strict church in a small town, who believe you must be baptized in water to be saved. I hope this is not a preview of what my younger brother Ryan will say (who i have a bond with and was raised with)

Hugs

So sad to see things like this.  HUGS to you.

Thanks, I was going to tell her that I was also more of a woman than a man but I felt that would have just made her more confused. She has never probably even heard terms like genderfluid or two spirit or anything like it.

Lol "word of God".... Which one? There's thousands to choose from. Let it go. Rational discussion doesn't work with religious people. If it did, they wouldn't be religious.

Hugs! 

Quote from: Isabelle on March 15, 2015, 10:28:15 PM
Let it go.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnoguiltlife.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F07%2FFrozen4.jpg&hash=61b12c2f85be8003de2937a14649602bf91d3e4e)

I will try though!

I mean it. She's in a cult. Maybe one day with luck and hard work she will free herself of her mental prison but really, that letter she sent you, like the vast majority of the "morals" in the bible, is hateful, disgusting bile. She needs help.

Huge Hugs!

It is hard to hear words like that.  Especially word where religious is used against us, but it's not actual what the religion says.

I grew up in an Evangelical Christian church.  What the Bible actually says, is that yes God is perfect, and the original Adam and Eve were perfect.  But they stopped being perfect beings once they committed the original sin.  If we were perfect, we would never get sick and never die.  This topic really rials me up.  I have lots of empathy for you.

Quote from: jessical on March 15, 2015, 10:46:45 PM
Huge Hugs!

It is hard to hear words like that.  Especially word where religious is used against us, but it's not actual what the religion says.

Oh piffle. It is so what the religion says. She even provided references to the passages.

The irony here is a Christian using laws from the Old Testament to justify her hate.

I'm not religious at all, I have no respect for religions and their made up rubbish. I'll tolerate people's right to be religious but, never their bigotry. Especially when the bigotry isn't even well disguised. If you're going to use scripture to hate on someone, at least put some effort in.

Warning. Flaming groups or individuals is not welcome.
That includes Christians.

Ok. How was what anything I said a flame???

I am a Christian, but now an open and affirming once going to UCC in Alameda, in fact they have helped me understand myself and how to still keep my faith. I have a lot to discover yet, but I know that I can still be who I am there. So not all Christians are bad though for sure.

Quote from: Isabelle on March 15, 2015, 10:45:18 PM
I mean it. She's in a cult. Maybe one day with luck and hard work she will free herself of her mental prison but really, that letter she sent you, like the vast majority of the "morals" in the bible, is hateful, disgusting bile. She needs help.

I don't think its hateful, disgusting bile coming from her as she really is a nice young teenage girl. She is just misinformed and undereducated about the whole thing. She is doing what I used to do years ago, mentally seperating herself from me and not associating or support me, which is very hurtful.

She's qouting Leviticus at you...
If Leviticus were written today, it'd be roundly dismissed as hate speech and banned from schools.

Also, I never meant to imply all Christians are bad. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. That said, the morals in the bible, by today's standards and by human rights standards are bad. Even the holy Qu'ran is accepting of trans people, and it's probably one of the most anti human books I've ever read.

Even though im ready to lose my religious family it will still always sting.  Seeing posts like this prepares me for this kind of thing.

Thanks

Shawn honey, I'm sorry about your niece. I know that must hurt.

OK everyone lets just calm down. Shawn has had some very distressing news. No matter our individual opinion of religion and the Bible or any Holy book, many people derive comfort etc from their religion.

Let us drop the critique of the Bible and provide some support for Shawn Sunshine at this unpleasant time.

Thank You

Cindy

Hi Shawn, disappointing reaction from your niece... I do hope, without the FB publicity, you can sort the issues out... as there is no right and wrong in this...

Hugs and kisses to you... don't let it get you down too much... were you really close?

Family and close friends can react in very polar ways, some are un-phased, others get really Anti, the Anti ones, generally will come around, give them space and time...

L Katy  :-*

Edited for correct English  :laugh:

Well I will respect Cindy's wishes and refrain from saying what a really think. I'm sorry that you have had to go through all of that, it must've been horrible to read and experience.

For your own good though I would urge you to move on from thinking about her or hoping for any reconciliation. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life. It's her decision to cut ties and you are in no way to blame, but unless she changes her very devout beliefs quite radically in the future, it can never be a healthy relationship with mutual respect.

Quote from: Isabelle on March 15, 2015, 11:09:25 PM
She's qouting Leviticus at you...
If Leviticus were written today, it'd be roundly dismissed as hate speech and banned from schools.

For those that don't know - Leviticus is old testament scripture that was written to the priests and the people of Israel, back before Jesus created the new covenant. The word Leviticus derives from the tribe of Levi, whose members were set aside by God to be His priests and worship leaders. Leviticus means "pertaining to the Levites".

I personally do not believe that anything from that scripture is applicable to the world we live in today - after all, we no longer have to offer blood sacrifices at the temple. I also believe that cherry picking verses from such old scripture to condemn someone today is misguided spirituality.

But that is neither here nor there. I grew up in the Church of Christ and yes they do hold to a strict fundamentalist belief in what the bible says. Your niece has absorbed those teachings as evidenced by the scripture that she quoted to you.

I often wonder if our purpose in life is to annoy the fundies (the fundamentalists) - God does have a sense of humor after all :) I attend a MCC church in North Hollywood and this journey of mine has opened my eyes to who God is - and it's not what the fundies think. Living in the spirit is far deeper than any list of dos and dont's.

Shawn - all you can do at this point is to be yourself and let her make her own way in life, and maybe you can stay in touch with her. Hopefully someday when she gets older and more mature she will realize that her faith should encompass far more than following a strict list of do's and don'ts from the bible. There is a compassion/empathy element that is missing from such an approach.

I'm sorry to hear about her opinions. That must be really difficult to cope and deal with. However, you are probably better off not being surrounded by people with such blinkered views, especially people that don't realise that is exactly what they are, and I say that as someone raised with a Christian lifestyle.

You must also do what is right for you, not what is right by someone else's world view!

Hi Shawn, I understand how it feels to struggle with family members that use the bible as a shield in improper manners. I am a Christian myself. Religion is the first thing any one attacks when you come out to them. I as well had the bible thrown at me when I came out especially from my in-laws ,who were raised pentecostal, with things like "well God doesn't approve of that" "Your Hell bound" and so forth. I think what happens is that we, as Christians in general, use God as a shield for things we do not understand. I'm sorry that your niece does not want to try to learn more about you and has cut communication with you. Maybe one day she will realize what it means to be compassionate and develop agape love. When that happens, she will be back but I'm sure that will take time.

I forgot to add that the Old Testament could be viewed as irrelevant when it comes to law considering that Jesus fulfilled the Law. That's why us women wearing pants is no longer a path to Hell lol.

Even if she thinks you're committing a sin, she is not God. Only God can and should judge you and she is committing a sin by judging you.

But, give her time. She may come around. I will pray for you.

well she responded again via facebook, but only via message and still unfriended:

QuoteBut how can you be intersexual if a perfect God made you? You are pretty much saying that you were messed up at the beginning..

I responded with this

QuoteThere are many theories on this. One is that God allowed or designed humans and animals to develop this way even though God created them geneticly as male and female from the start.

Or Two, that it's a fallen world that is not perfect anymore and influenced by sin causes these genetic changes. I believe its #1 because other creatures in God's kingdom are also two genders and or can become the other gender. The clown fish (the fish from Finding Nemo) can and will change from male to female if there are no other female fish in the school, so they then can have babies and keep the species alive. There is a Tree Frog that can go from female to male also for the same purpose. There are other creatures that are a blend and reproduce in of themselves.

Even if being transgender or intersex is a result of a fallen world, what should we tell a person, that they have to live with having the mind of one gender and the body of another> Or that they must have corrective surgery as a baby to look more like what the Doctor thinks thy are supposed to be? Intersex babies are often misgendered by Doctors and parents and then are later shunned and even worse , if they tell there parents later on they are not what the Doctor labeled them as.

I think you said it well. I hope she comes around for you in the end. I guess not everyone is opened minded. You have an open view of things because of who you are and you operate on a much higher level than the everyday person oblivious to the stress of life. I like to think of us trans as enlightened individuals.

I had one sister that was kind enough to unfriend me. I had another that made me unfriend her. She got mean and nasty about it. It sucks, but I'm not going to let my sister's backwards views dictate how I live my life. What pisses me off though is that one of them is divorced and remarried. This is also in the bible as being a bad thing and yet they think its perfectly ok. Why is it ok to get divorced (which is in the bible), but not be transgender (which really isn't in the bible)? Personally I think the divorce was the right move. I was on her side. It sucks that they'll let some random man dictate what parts of the bible to listen to and what parts not to listen to.

Quote from: Squircle on March 16, 2015, 04:53:21 AM
Well I will respect Cindy's wishes and refrain from saying what a really think. I'm sorry that you have had to go through all of that, it must've been horrible to read and experience.

For your own good though I would urge you to move on from thinking about her or hoping for any reconciliation. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life. It's her decision to cut ties and you are in no way to blame, but unless she changes her very devout beliefs quite radically in the future, it can never be a healthy relationship with mutual respect.

This is why I think I am going out of my way to try and blend logic with faith, because not only do i need that for my own self and peace of mind (which helped me to decide to transition) I am hoping that she too will (along with her dad and mom) be able to see more clearly. But I fear you could be right which will hurt even more if other family (especially my mom) will never come around. I don't really know this side of the family all that well as I was raised by my stepdad and mom and did not even know about my bio dad until 2002 and met my niece and nephews from that side in 2004/2005

Ok wait , maybe there is a glimmer of hope, then cause I looked back at some of her past posts to facebook:

QuoteGuys, I donated to this AMAZING cause, now it's your turn! Go to this link: http://bit.ly/1vEUNkk

She knows about the Trevor Project and Tyler Oakley! So I'm wondering what is happening here then.

Just so you know, I am an atheist, so I may not be the best one to listen to for advice on religion. But I don't see any reason you should view your decision to transition as a compromise of your faith. The argument that you are the way God made you and you should do nothing to change it makes no sense to begin with. Does that mean no one should ever cut their hair, because it already grows the way God intended? Does that mean you shouldn't take medicine when you're sick, because God is the one who gave you the disease? Does that mean you shouldn't fix a birth defect, because God intended for you to be deformed? The more you think about it the less sense it makes. You know what God (or whatever force you believe is responsible for creating humanity) did? He gave you a mind to think for yourself, and to know the difference between right and wrong. When you only listen to what other people tell you is right, you are ignoring that gift, and I'm sure that would not be what God would want you to do. If you think what you are doing will make you happy, and it doesn't hurt anyone else, then no God worth following would ever object to it.

You're better off without the bitch,**** her

Sorry to have this happen to you.  It really makes me sad when someone is not able to look beyond some sound byte phrase.  I was told yesterday by my dad and step-mother to not tell my kids (17 to 29) about myself until I had been to see a Christian counselor.  Sorry, didn't happen.  This isn't a religious issue, it is a medical one.   

Your niece asked you "But how can you be intersexual if a perfect God made you? You are pretty much saying that you were messed up at the beginning.."

So.......you can ask her........

Why does a child who is diabetic get to take insulin?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child cancer patient get to undergo chemo?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child with a cleft lip or palate get to undergo reconstructive surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with Turner syndrome get to take growth hormone and extrogen replacement?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with a congenital heart defect get to have heart repair surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

My basic understanding is that being TG is based on fetal brain development issues.  So while others may have more directly obivious medical issuses, we are suspossed to not seek treatment because we were made perfect?  Please.....

that's...pretty....yah...:-\ and i wouldn't really consider myself a christian, but i know that i have read quite a few pro-trans quotes from the bible, so they are out there. i was trying to find some good ones that i had read before but instead i found this and thought it just kinda rang out to me.

1 Samuel 16:7:
"... the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

Its interesting you bring these issues up. I brought up to one of my sisters the fact that her son had a very minor birth defect over his eye. He opted to get it fixed. I said that what I want isn't all that different, just more extreme. It made absolutely no difference at all. She's been taught to hate the LGBT+ community. She brought up her lesbian friends proving she doesn't, but she confirmed she doesn't accept them. She only tolerates them and me even less so.

Quote from: Jessie Ann on March 16, 2015, 02:41:35 PM
Sorry to have this happen to you.  It really makes me sad when someone is not able to look beyond some sound byte phrase.  I was told yesterday by my dad and step-mother to not tell my kids (17 to 29) about myself until I had been to see a Christian counselor.  Sorry, didn't happen.  This isn't a religious issue, it is a medical one.   

Your niece asked you "But how can you be intersexual if a perfect God made you? You are pretty much saying that you were messed up at the beginning.."

So.......you can ask her........

Why does a child who is diabetic get to take insulin?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child cancer patient get to undergo chemo?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child with a cleft lip or palate get to undergo reconstructive surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with Turner syndrome get to take growth hormone and extrogen replacement?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with a congenital heart defect get to have heart repair surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

My basic understanding is that being TG is based on fetal brain development issues.  So while others may have more directly obivious medical issuses, we are suspossed to not seek treatment because we were made perfect?  Please.....

I find the people are generally taught to fear and hate the unknown. Its a defense mechanism for people that have a hard time with change. I noticed it makes no difference whether its from the Christian church or other sources, people will always find something to hide behind to shield themselves from change especially if it directly effects them.

I 100% agree. I was homophobic until I met a gay person. I was transphobic until I came out (I never actually met any that I know of until after I came out).

Quote from: naomi599 on March 16, 2015, 04:23:10 PM
I find the people are generally taught to fear and hate the unknown. Its a defense mechanism for people that have a hard time with change. I noticed it makes no difference whether its from the Christian church or other sources, people will always find something to hide behind to shield themselves from change especially if it directly effects them.

I'm really jealous of your stamina. I mean, I think I wouldn't get patience enough to deal with that girl (your niece) in a baziillion years.

Quote from: Miyuki on March 16, 2015, 01:43:46 PM
Just so you know, I am an atheist, so I may not be the best one to listen to for advice on religion. But I don't see any reason you should view your decision to transition as a compromise of your faith. The argument that you are the way God made you and you should do nothing to change it makes no sense to begin with. Does that mean no one should ever cut their hair, because it already grows the way God intended? Does that mean you shouldn't take medicine when you're sick, because God is the one who gave you the disease? Does that mean you shouldn't fix a birth defect, because God intended for you to be deformed? The more you think about it the less sense it makes. You know what God (or whatever force you believe is responsible for creating humanity) did? He gave you a mind to think for yourself, and to know the difference between right and wrong. When you only listen to what other people tell you is right, you are ignoring that gift, and I'm sure that would not be what God would want you to do. If you think what you are doing will make you happy, and it doesn't hurt anyone else, then no God worth following would ever object to it.

I have said the same thing to someone , well just the hair part. I was even thinking of this recently.  :angel:

Quote from: Jessie Ann on March 16, 2015, 02:41:35 PM
Sorry to have this happen to you.  It really makes me sad when someone is not able to look beyond some sound byte phrase.  I was told yesterday by my dad and step-mother to not tell my kids (17 to 29) about myself until I had been to see a Christian counselor.  Sorry, didn't happen.  This isn't a religious issue, it is a medical one.   

Your niece asked you "But how can you be intersexual if a perfect God made you? You are pretty much saying that you were messed up at the beginning.."

So.......you can ask her........

Why does a child who is diabetic get to take insulin?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child cancer patient get to undergo chemo?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child with a cleft lip or palate get to undergo reconstructive surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with Turner syndrome get to take growth hormone and extrogen replacement?  Weren't they made perfect?

Why does a child born with a congenital heart defect get to have heart repair surgery?  Weren't they made perfect?

My basic understanding is that being TG is based on fetal brain development issues.  So while others may have more directly obivious medical issuses, we are suspossed to not seek treatment because we were made perfect?  Please.....

Do you mind if i quote these to her? It is very good logic. Not that it will necessarily help as she has the bible belt goggles on and its foggy outside.

Quote from: KyleeKrow on March 16, 2015, 02:56:12 PM
that's...pretty....yah...:-\ and i wouldn't really consider myself a christian, but i know that i have read quite a few pro-trans quotes from the bible, so they are out there. i was trying to find some good ones that i had read before but instead i found this and thought it just kinda rang out to me.

1 Samuel 16:7:
"... the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

:angel:  I have one that makes sense, theres even a book out there about it, now while it does start out talking about divorce and marriage just before and some argue it has nothing to do with being transgender or intersex. I personally think it does.

Matthew 19:12

QuoteFor there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Quote from: naomi599 on March 16, 2015, 04:23:10 PM
I find the people are generally taught to fear and hate the unknown. Its a defense mechanism for people that have a hard time with change. I noticed it makes no difference whether its from the Christian church or other sources, people will always find something to hide behind to shield themselves from change especially if it directly effects them.

Yeah I was denied an apartment from room mates (potential) when they discovered I was lgbt but also Christian at the same time.

I went through all of that from dozens of people and was publicly humiliated and excommunicated from the Mormon church.

But keeping religion out of it, ask her if she has her ears pierced? Is that okay. If that is okay, then is it okay to remove a cataract and replace it with an artificial lense? If that is okay, how about fixing a hairlip? Just trundle down the road to where she sees that at least some of God's handiwork got messed up, and sometimes we do it to ourselves for mere decorations.

I know how badly this feels... and you actually have physical issues that must be addressed! Truly, I don't understand why someone can't see intersected people as having a problem they feel must be resolved.

Chin up.
Cindi

Hi Swan,

I am sorry some of your family are intolerant, hugs.

You must be hurting and you must love your niece very much. You have displayed patience and understanding and are a good uncle.

Perhaps your niece will have an opportunity to experience life in another, more diverse, location.

Some day you and she may become close again.

Sorry for your pain.

Shawn the amount of patience you have had in dealing with your niece is incredible and I admire that a lot. I'm sorry that this happened between you and her and I can only hope some day she will see the light. People often like to use different things including religion as a crutch when dealing with things they don't understand or don't feel comfortable dealing with. My previous primary care doctor used it as a reason to say he wasn't comfortable himself prescribing the treatment I needed, but instead handed me off to someone who would. I truly feel and believe it does come down to what's in a heart anyway. Our dealing with are gender issues that have resulted from our being Transgendered, inter-esexed or some combination there of is what is allowing us to be truthful before God and to ourselves. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on March 16, 2015, 05:35:24 PM
Do you mind if i quote these to her? It is very good logic. Not that it will necessarily help as she has the bible belt goggles on and its foggy outside.

That is why I posted it.  Good Luck. 

I am having to deal with this issue with some of my own family.  I will just keep repeating its a medical issue not a religious one.  If they get, great.  If they can't, then they will be the one to lose.  I am a very unique and special individual that they will lose that from their life.  While I will be sad for them, I cannot let that keep me from moving forward.   

That's really sad.

Shawn, has your niece read Leviticus and Deuteronomy in their entirety?  Does she follow both of those books to the letter?

I honestly don't think I've ever met anyone who does.   I also don't remember the part of the Bible where Jesus said, "Thou shalt not be intersex."

Quote from: Jill F on March 16, 2015, 08:13:19 PM
That's really sad.

Shawn, has your niece read Leviticus and Deuteronomy in their entirety?  Does she follow both of those books to the letter?

I honestly don't think I've ever met anyone who does.   I also don't remember the part of the Bible where Jesus said, "Thou shalt not be intersex."

She has more book smarts than me in regards to the Bible so yes I am sure, as her mom and grandma on that side homeschooled her and taught only church of Christ things.

Well it seems likely her religious views are acting to reinforce her phobic views which reinforce her religious views. Some people you just can't reach. If you're bound and determined to try though perhaps try the Jesus angle.

His entire message in the New Testament, the one that was the new covenant between man and god as far as I understand it, the one that replaced the old testament as being no longer relevant for CHRISTians, was one of love and acceptance. Turn the other cheek replaced an eye for an eye. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" was said to a crowd preparing to stone a grievous sinner. I believe that was an adulterer they were going to stone, because that was the OLD law. He spent his time with prostitutes and the other dregs of society, showing them love and compassion and acceptance. Because nobody is perfect compared to him, we're all equally flawed. Basically the entire point of everything Jesus said was to not act like a ****. Spread love not hate. He was the biggest pacifist hippy ever.

Anyways, I've yet to hear a good explanation for how a Christian can judge you when they're specifically told to not do that. And judging is exactly what they're doing when they say they can't interact with you anymore because of some sin you've supposedly committed. "Hate the sin but love the sinner" is just plain wrong according to the new testament. More so when they exclude you from their lives for it, or chastise you in any way. Your sins are between you, your chosen clergyman, and god. They're nobody else's business. Not that I feel this stuff makes you a sinner, but she obviously does so I'm speaking to that.

If it really comes down to a book fight where you're quoting scriptures at one another, if my memory serves me (and it has been a while since I've picked up that particular weighty tome) you should be able to quote just about any of the red text back to her. Though, and this is a big digression, I really don't believe it will do any good. No matter how many quotations you match or exceed her with she probably won't change her mind just from a conversation with you. In fact there are studies that say the more you try to change someone's mind the more firmly set in their beliefs they become. For all things, not just religious views. What's more, she's quite likely just using religion to further her own phobic views. You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into.

So while a head to head argument may just cause her to dig in I've found that often if you can make one really good and succinct point (unlike this post, so sorry!), one earnest emotional plea, then you'll sow seeds that eventually yield understanding as they think on it over time. Perhaps a simple plea for love and acceptance regardless of whatever sin she's judging you for would work best. Tug at the heart strings. Because that's what it's supposed to be all about. The love.

<3!