Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Forgive me if this is in the wrong sub forum, but I would like to know in your opinions what it was that made you feel the need for ->-bleeped-<-. Such as, was it the feeling of being masculine that besieged you? In your mind Do you feel that you do this because you want to be a different person entirely, or you feel completely that you are in fact yourself. I'd love to hear what any and all have to say :)

Quote from: codyfletcher on March 22, 2015, 05:08:38 AM
Forgive me if this is in the wrong sub forum, but I would like to know in your opinions what it was that made you feel the need for ->-bleeped-<-. Such as, was it the feeling of being masculine that besieged you? In your mind Do you feel that you do this because you want to be a different person entirely, or you feel completely that you are in fact yourself. I'd love to hear what any and all have to say :)

My brain is wired so that when I see myself as a female, I like what I see. When I see myself as a male, I don't.

It has nothing to do with "feeling" feminine or masculine or wanting to be a different person. I'm me, that's all I'll ever be, whether masculine or feminine. There are some very masculine trans women and feminine trans men, but they still need to be who they are.

That's not it.

My brain needs me to be female. It's that simple.

I didn't "need ->-bleeped-<-". I am transgender.

I gave up needing a reason a loooong time ago. To paraphrase Popeye - I am what I am.

I have in the past thought about that subject before I accepted my reality, but now I am in Grace's shoes, really don't care anymore.  However while I really don't care, I will sometimes read an article on the subject if I trip over it.

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 22, 2015, 05:16:57 AM
My brain is wired so that when I see myself as a female, I like what I see. When I see myself as a male, I don't.

It has nothing to do with "feeling" feminine or masculine or wanting to be a different person. I'm me, that's all I'll ever be, whether masculine or feminine. There are some very masculine trans women and feminine trans men, but they still need to be who they are.

That's not it.

My brain needs me to be female. It's that simple.

I didn't "need ->-bleeped-<-". I am transgender.

Hmmmm, very interesting points that being non transgender I would most likely never have thought that way myself. Thank you for elaborating with me :)

I started out with the same question.  Many have pointed they are just a tg female, when in fact I know and science has proven they are in the case of mtf "just female"..  Our bodies didn't make the change at birth.  When your brain knows something to be true, you feel better when you know you are doing the right thing.  This is still my opinion and that of the scientific community,  but after living it, I can't see it any other way but to be fact.  Anyone else?

I felt female and saw my body in my mind as female when I was very young. I thought for sure my parents wanted a boy and had an operation done on me at birth. The feeling is so strong I would cry myself to sleep and hope and pray I would wake up female bodied.

I am in transition to find peace within myself. The war had finally been won but the cost is very high.

Typically masculine stereotypical actions and thinking I do not have.

I do not want to be a different person.  I want to be me. What others see is an assumption of who you are. If you do not meet their definitions then you are ostracized. 

I am of the opinion it is a lesser degree of IS but still a real nature occurrence.

My Nickels worth.

Quote from: codyfletcher on March 22, 2015, 05:08:38 AM
I would like to know in your opinions what it was that made you feel the need for ->-bleeped-<-. Such as, was it the feeling of being masculine that besieged you?

To me, being transgender is just a sum of all of the gender issues I encountered since puberty.  Anxiety from being expected to act/speak  masculine, to behave male in romantic roles (either sex), emotional responses, body hair, posture and body language, clothing, etc.

It wasn't overnight.  It took years of people pointing out things I was doing subconsciously (anyone else told to stop covering your mouth when you giggle?).  Only after trying extra hard to fit into a male role (eventually as a feminine gay person) did I eventually realize most of my problems came down to being transgender.

Very interesting points shared, and again i thank all that can share with me in better educating me on the matter. I'd really like to actually meet a transgender in person to sit down and have an actual 1on1 conversation between eachother, ya know, oldschool. However, In my area, i've not seen a single transgender person (or at least been able to tell) sadly i feel this is due to the judgmental types that roam about this state. I'd surely like to better educate it's entire populace and get rid of the hate and ignorance that people spread.

@mfox, you mentioned "I eventually realize most of my problems came down to being transgender." Do you really see this as being an actual problem? Or is it more just factual to you. In my opinion, The fact that you are transgender shouldn't necessarily be born a problem, rather I think it should be more of an enlightenment to something you already knew but wasn't completely sure of. Which brings me to my next question, What was the final straw or the ultimatum that led to your actual transition, I'd certainly like to hear others experiences as well. If this is all too much i can certainly stop at anytime.

You might look up a leaflet called "doh-transgender-experiences.pdf" .
Only thing I would disagree with is page 7, where they state stress, instead many experience relief.
it states a few facts not widely known... and some experiences of transgender people.
Its written also for family to understand... so it might offer a few points of view that might be helpful...

It states that being trans has some biological connections, which is imo additionally socially a bit better acceptable..

And well its difficult to explain... for some its some kind of puzzle until they see clearer... some knew from early on... people are different...


hugs

Quote from: Laura_7 on March 22, 2015, 11:55:43 AM
You might look up a leaflet called "doh-transgender-experiences.pdf" .
Only thing I would disagree with is page 7, where they state stress, instead many experience relief.
it states a few facts not widely known... and some experiences of transgender people.
Its written also for family to understand... so it might offer a few points of view that might be helpful...

It states that being trans has some biological connections, which is imo additionally socially a bit better acceptable..

And well its difficult to explain... for some its some kind of puzzle until they see clearer... some knew from early on... people are different...



hugs

I'll definitely be looking that up, thank you so kindly for the info. When did you know if you don't mind me asking? Was it relief you felt when you actually made the transition, or are you not yet in that phase?

Well I'll be frank with mine. My whole life I've been bullied about my weight to where it's had a toll on my subconscious. Tie that into being just a complete screw-up and having depression. Everything about my life just sucked. Sure It's been alright on the outside but on the inside I simply felt like crying anytime people said anything. In Dec. 2014 I started researching life and stuff, and I can across the term transgender. Everything seemed to fit. After that point I've now set my sights on becoming what I Meant to be. I never once guessed that having feelings and being a social outcast growing up was me just trying to free myself.

Also for that fact I grew up around racist people and was always basically told to judge people like ourselves. So I've always been a negative and hateful person. Once I understood myself, I got angry at myself for thinking this way and wanted to prove myself. I have contacted a few people who I knew were gay and apologized for any bad remarks I've ever said to them. Most understood what I was trying to say but said they never felt any pain from things I've said.

It's hard you know. To completely 180 your whole world because everything you knew was wrong. That's what Transgender means to me. It's a new opening to a better life.

Quote from: CaptFido87 on March 22, 2015, 12:19:41 PM
Well I'll be frank with mine. My whole life I've been bullied about my weight to where it's had a toll on my subconscious. Tie that into being just a complete screw-up and having depression. Everything about my life just sucked. Sure It's been alright on the outside but on the inside I simply felt like crying anytime people said anything. In Dec. 2014 I started researching life and stuff, and I can across the term transgender. Everything seemed to fit. After that point I've now set my sights on becoming what I Meant to be. I never once guessed that having feelings and being a social outcast growing up was me just trying to free myself.

Also for that fact I grew up around racist people and was always basically told to judge people like ourselves. So I've always been a negative and hateful person. Once I understood myself, I got angry at myself for thinking this way and wanted to prove myself. I have contacted a few people who I knew were gay and apologized for any bad remarks I've ever said to them. Most understood what I was trying to say but said they never felt any pain from things I've said.

It's hard you know. To completely 180 your whole world because everything you knew was wrong. That's what Transgender means to me. It's a new opening to a better life.

That was beautiful sister,

I can certainly relate what you mean by 180ing your life around. I was in the US army for 4 years and it really took a toll on my psyche. Most of the human emotions that people feel are just not there for me, my entire feminine side is just gone, I enjoyed being a feminine bisexual male, i was very kind hearted, loving, caring, emotional, expressive, but the army changed most of my emotions, and I'm still trying to fix that to this day. Even though I haven't achieved my endeavors I'm most certainly happy that you have and continue to pursue your own. Best of luck mate! :D

I never understood males, in spite of years of trying to be one.

When I tried "being just myself", I was far too girly for the guys (they thought I was homosexual or just plain weird)...but when I tried to adopt "guy behaviors" (mimicking what I saw other guys doing) it was like being in an unknown play without a script or director, and people throwing tomatoes at you if you forget a line.

Long story short, I went to therapy to figure out why I was depressed and anxious all the time (unless I was in a group of lesbians) and after dealing with some intense personal issues, the subject of "maybe you're gay?" came up. Looked into it by asking questions and interacting (no sex) and someone suggested I might be transgender.

The more I looked into that the more I realized that it was ok for me to BE girly, and the more girly I let myself be, the happier I became.

There's no "acting" with me when it comes to feminine behaviors...it's natural and is automatic, unlike guy behaviors, which are very stilted and contrived.

I love being me.

Quote from: codyfletcher on March 22, 2015, 05:08:38 AM
Forgive me if this is in the wrong sub forum, but I would like to know in your opinions what it was that made you feel the need for ->-bleeped-<-. Such as, was it the feeling of being masculine that besieged you? In your mind Do you feel that you do this because you want to be a different person entirely, or you feel completely that you are in fact yourself. I'd love to hear what any and all have to say :)

What is it that made you feel the need to be cis instead of transgender? Do you feel that you do this because you don't want to be transgender or is it because you feel yourself and comfortable as a cis gendered person?

I'm just turning your question around a little and hopefully you get the idea why. We don't choose to be transgender anymore than you choose to be cis gendered. I know you didn't mean any harm but some people may be bothered by the implication that we can choose whether or not to be transgendered. It would be similar to going up to a person who was born without a limb and asking why they want a prosthetic and why they chose to not have that limb. They didn't choose to be born that way and they want a prosthetic in order to correct their body, to improve the quality of their life and to be able to function as well as any other human being. It's similar to why transgender people transition. They want to correct the parts of their body that don't match the gender of their brain, they want to improve the quality of their life by eliminating or lessening their dysphoria and they want to be able to function healthily within society and their gender roles as other cis members of their gender do. Hopefully that sort of puts things into perspective.


For me, even at a really young age I knew that something didn't match up between my brain and my body. I was hyper aware of the physical and social differences between boys and girls. Gender was and is always something that's at the forefront of my mind like an invisible barrier that holds me back from so many things. Most people don't even pay much mind to their gender or gender roles, they just are who they are, but I wasn't.

As a little kid I would go to my mother and cry, trying to ask her why I felt uncomfortable about being a girl, trying to tell her that I knew I was actually a boy; but she didn't understand and in some ways my childish mind couldn't quite grasp what was wrong either so I was constantly depressed.

I remember watching cartoons as a kid and noticing that all of the characters were male and getting this crushing feeling of "I'm not like them, I'm not male, I can never be." It wasn't so much verbalized as it was something I felt emotionally.

In school I had male and female friends but when the teacher would split the class up by gender I got that sickening, sinking feeling again when I was made to go to the girl's side because I knew I wasn't a girl but no one else did.

I remember when I went to the department store with my mom to pick out a shirt and tie for my dad's Father's Day gift. I looked at the men on the ad displays and thought that one day I would grow up to look like them: broad shoulders, muscular arms, flat chest and slim hips in a suit and tie. I looked forward to it.

When that didn't happen my anxiety started. I was in middle school and female puberty hit me with the reality that it was final, I was male but my body wasn't. For some reason I had always held out hope that my body would change or I would wake up as a boy one morning. But that didn't happen, of course. Instead, I had to watch as all the other guys around me grew taller, more muscular, their voices deepened. Instead my chest grew and the dreaded time of the month started. I was literally in a state of shock because of it. I realized how trapped I was and my life felt worthless. I started withdrawing from my peers and doing really badly in school, I just didn't care about anything anymore. Then I became angry and resentful which was even worse.

During the summers I would watch my dad do yard work without a shirt on and feel jealous because my body was female, I could never take my shirt off and have that freedom of  feeling the warm air hit my chest. When I would go swimming I would wear a shirt and shorts because I couldn't stand looking like a girl in a bathing suit or bikini.

I didn't have any friends because how can a person know how to make friends when they don't even know how to be them-self? On top of that I had know idea how to interact socially as a female. Eventually my sister introduced me to some of her friends and by some miracle they took a liking to me.

Since I was then surrounded by female friends I tried to fit in so I started wearing makeup and things like that. I started acting very homophobic but it was just a mask because I had developed little crushes on my friends and knew that would be unacceptable to my family. I accepted that I would probably be hateful and alone forever. I pretty much pushed myself deeper into the closet before I even knew what being transgender was. I just knew I was physically a girl who hated being a girl.

I was happy with my friends but I still struggled badly with anxiety and depression which was being caused by my dysphoria. Eventually I took to gaming online as a male and it became like a second life for me because it was one where people actually knew I was male. The dysphoria in my real life was getting so bad though that I was starting to think of suicide. I just couldn't stand myself and my female body anymore. I was Googling painless suicide methods (which don't exist by the way) because I was trapped in the wrong body so suicide seemed to be the only way out when I decided to Google "I'm trapped in the wrong body" instead and that's when I started to learn what it meant to be transgender and that I indeed was. I saw some videos of guy who had transitioned but thought I could never do that because it seemed like such a drastic change and I would be scared to. My depression from dysphoria kept getting worse and worse until I couldn't even function at work anymore and I was losing the few friends I had so I revisited the idea of transitioning again and the more I learned the more I wanted to finally become the man I always have been inside.


So that's kind of the short story (I wouldn't want to write the long one much less have someone read it all for now anyway but if you have questions you can ask) behind some of the things I felt and what led me to learning that I was transgender. I had known it all along, just never knew there was a term for it or anything I could do about it.

I'm not sure how to describe dysphoria to you but maybe: imagine one day waking up as a woman. All of your male physical characteristics are gone, if you know what I mean, and everyone throughout the day refers to you as a female. It might seem comical for a day or two but imagine having to live the rest of your life trapped like that and never being able to get used to it because you know you're male, you want your body to be male and you want to be treated like a male by others but that can't happen. How would you feel?

Quote from: Contravene on March 22, 2015, 12:58:35 PM
What is it that made you feel the need to be cis instead of transgender? Do you feel that you do this because you don't want to be transgender or is it because you feel yourself and comfortable as a cis gendered person?

I'm just turning your question around a little and hopefully you get the idea why. We don't choose to be transgender anymore than you choose to be cis gendered. I know you didn't mean any harm but some people may be bothered by the implication that we can choose whether or not to be transgendered. It would be similar to going up to a person who was born without a limb and asking why they want a prosthetic and why they chose to not have that limb. They didn't choose to be born that way and they want a prosthetic in order to correct their body, to improve the quality of their life and to be able to function as well as any other human being. It's similar to why transgender people transition. They want to correct the parts of their body that don't match the gender of their brain, they want to improve the quality of their life by eliminating or lessening their dysphoria and they want to be able to function healthily within society and their gender roles as other cis members of their gender do. Hopefully that sort of puts things into perspective.


For me, even at a really young age I knew that something didn't match up between my brain and my body. I was hyper aware of the physical and social differences between boys and girls. Gender was and is always something that's at the forefront of my mind like an invisible barrier that holds me back from so many things. Most people don't even pay much mind to their gender or gender roles, they just are who they are, but I wasn't.

As a little kid I would go to my mother and cry, trying to ask her why I felt uncomfortable about being a girl, trying to tell her that I knew I was actually a boy; but she didn't understand and in some ways my childish mind couldn't quite grasp what was wrong either so I was constantly depressed.

I remember watching cartoons as a kid and noticing that all of the characters were male and getting this crushing feeling of "I'm not like them, I'm not male, I can never be." It wasn't so much verbalized as it was something I felt emotionally.

In school I had male and female friends but when the teacher would split the class up by gender I got that sickening, sinking feeling again when I was made to go to the girl's side because I knew I wasn't a girl but no one else did.

I remember when I went to the department store with my mom to pick out a shirt and tie for my dad's Father's Day gift. I looked at the men on the ad displays and thought that one day I would grow up to look like them: broad shoulders, muscular arms, flat chest and slim hips in a suit and tie. I looked forward to it.

When that didn't happen my anxiety started. I was in middle school and female puberty hit me with the reality that it was final, I was male but my body wasn't. For some reason I had always held out hope that my body would change or I would wake up as a boy one morning. But that didn't happen, of course. Instead, I had to watch as all the other guys around me grew taller, more muscular, their voices deepened. Instead my chest grew and the dreaded time of the month started. I was literally in a state of shock because of it. I realized how trapped I was and my life felt worthless. I started withdrawing from my peers and doing really badly in school, I just didn't care about anything anymore. Then I became angry and resentful which was even worse.

During the summers I would watch my dad do yard work without a shirt on and feel jealous because my body was female, I could never take my shirt off and have that freedom of  feeling the warm air hit my chest. When I would go swimming I would wear a shirt and shorts because I couldn't stand looking like a girl in a bathing suit or bikini.

I didn't have any friends because how can a person know how to make friends when they don't even know how to be them-self? On top of that I had know idea how to interact socially as a female. Eventually my sister introduced me to some of her friends and by some miracle they took a liking to me.

Since I was then surrounded by female friends I tried to fit in so I started wearing makeup and things like that. I started acting very homophobic but it was just a mask because I had developed little crushes on my friends and knew that would be unacceptable to my family. I accepted that I would probably be hateful and alone forever. I pretty much pushed myself deeper into the closet before I even knew what being transgender was. I just knew I was physically a girl who hated being a girl.

I was happy with my friends but I still struggled badly with anxiety and depression which was being caused by my dysphoria. Eventually I took to gaming online as a male and it became like a second life for me because it was one where people actually knew I was male. The dysphoria in my real life was getting so bad though that I was starting to think of suicide. I just couldn't stand myself and my female body anymore. I was Googling painless suicide methods (which don't exist by the way) because I was trapped in the wrong body so suicide seemed to be the only way out when I decided to Google "I'm trapped in the wrong body" instead and that's when I started to learn what it meant to be transgender and that I indeed was. I saw some videos of guy who had transitioned but thought I could never do that because it seemed like such a drastic change and I would be scared to. My depression from dysphoria kept getting worse and worse until I couldn't even function at work anymore and I was losing the few friends I had so I revisited the idea of transitioning again and the more I learned the more I wanted to finally become the man I always have been inside.


So that's kind of the short story (I wouldn't want to write the long one much less have someone read it all for now anyway but if you have questions you can ask) behind some of the things I felt and what led me to learning that I was transgender. I had known it all along, just never knew there was a term for it or anything I could do about it.

I'm not sure how to describe dysphoria to you but maybe: imagine one day waking up as a woman. All of your male physical characteristics are gone, if you know what I mean, and everyone throughout the day refers to you as a female. It might seem comical for a day or two but imagine having to live the rest of your life trapped like that and never being able to get used to it because you know you're male, you want your body to be male and you want to be treated like a male by others but that can't happen. How would you feel?

Wow, Thank you so much for that indignation. If I did offend I'm terribly sorry, I was not trying to imply that being transgender was something by choice, i was rather searching for answers straight from the source, not some BS that I could get from a so called "doctor". You all are incredibly brave to be able to go out and be yourselves even when you know for a fact you risk facing persecution, discrimination, and even in some cases assault. It deeply saddens me to hear some of the peoples stories here, as 100% of them that I have read so far, always started off really really low. However, there is light at the end of every tunnel thus far and everything just gets lighter from there.

I definitely couldn't imagine just suddenly waking up as a female after 22 years of being a male, Though it would be a nice change of pace assuming female hormones could change my personality. I basically have none in terms of emotions, that part of me died years ago and just hasn't been reborn over that period of time. I honestly don't even know if it ever will return, however I'm more than happy that others don't have to go through the same thing, many say, "gosh, i wish i could just be numb for a change" you do think that until it happens. How i wish i could be romantic or more intimate with my wife, but I simply can't find that it me anymore, It's not that I don't love her with all my heart, I simply can't express it in ways that most other people can.

Quote from: codyfletcher on March 22, 2015, 05:08:38 AM
... what it was that made you feel the need for ->-bleeped-<-.

From my point of view, that's an odd way to put it.

"->-bleeped-<-" isn't something we "need", any more than those of us with brown hair is something one "needs" or being 61 years old is something I "need."

"Transgender" is what we are, just as 61 years old is what I am.

In its more general sense, transgender simply means we aren't able to fit into society's idea of what or how someone with our birth sex should be.

We can choose to recognize that that is what we are, and if we do, then we have to choose what to do about it, but we can't choose whether to be what we are.

In my case, I call  myself "transgender" because:

* I've never been able to perform the gender I was assigned at birth all that well.  (Not that I was exactly "girly," I just wasn't "boy-y" enough.)  And I've never had much urge to do so, either.  I only do enough to get people to leave me alone.  When I was younger, I got called names and harrassed and punished for it, now I just get shunned by most people for it.
* I've never thought of myself as male, other than anatomically.  In fact, other than social training brainwashing and anatomy, I don't know what gender is.  (On the other hand, I've never thought of myself as "female", either.)
* I don't relate well to men.  It always feels like I'm dealing with an alien species.  I don't feel that way with women.
* There are lots of things I've always longed to do that are labelled "female-only" in our society and thus are forbidden to men and boys.  Lately, I've been trying out some of them, since I seem to be in a more tolerant place and time.

At this point, I'm considering transitioning to female, not because I feel like I'm "really" a woman, but because I think I might be more comfortable playing the role of a woman than I've been playing the role of a man.  (But I've been going up on my lines a lot, because the script for the "male" role sucks.)

FWIW, a lot of people say things like, "only trans people question their gender."  In my case, what I question is the idea of gender in the first place.  For me, it's just a bunch of stupid rules that society tries to get us to buy into, and while I may have to observe some of them to some limited extent to get by, they have nothing to do with how I see myself.

Quote from: Contravene on March 22, 2015, 12:58:35 PM
What is it that made you feel the need to be cis instead of transgender? Do you feel that you do this because you don't want to be transgender or is it because you feel yourself and comfortable as a cis gendered person?

I'm just turning your question around a little and hopefully you get the idea why. We don't choose to be transgender anymore than you choose to be cis gendered. I know you didn't mean any harm but some people may be bothered by the implication that we can choose whether or not to be transgendered. It would be similar to going up to a person who was born without a limb and asking why they want a prosthetic and why they chose to not have that limb. They didn't choose to be born that way and they want a prosthetic in order to correct their body, to improve the quality of their life and to be able to function as well as any other human being. It's similar to why transgender people transition. They want to correct the parts of their body that don't match the gender of their brain, they want to improve the quality of their life by eliminating or lessening their dysphoria and they want to be able to function healthily within society and their gender roles as other cis members of their gender do. Hopefully that sort of puts things into perspective.

As someone who is cis-sexual or cis-genderless (A term I made up for transgender individuals to understand my point of view), I never really liked the assumption from many trans-individuals that every cis-individuals have a feeling of gender because that simply doesn't apply to all of them and especially for those individuals who have no reason to identify other than they are born with those parts or the philosophy of essentialism being applied to biological sex and identity. I would fall under that camp as I do not have a reason to identify based upon feelings because it is not something that makes sense to me, and nor I am capable of caring to identify based upon feelings as I lack a feeling of gender while I find that essentialism makes sense for me.  I also couldn't careless about gender roles and gender roles are officially dead where I am at (If you were to go into my neighborhood, you'd see that no one enforces roles for members of people who carry a certain body because they're dead.), and from my experience, there's no good reason to believe that there is major differences in the behaviors of women and men while differences are due to inherent properties which affects their psychology indirectly such as being able to breed or having very observable anatomical characteristics.

That being said, I think the OP wants to know why transgender identify in a way that goes contrary to the application of essentialism as the OP may have hard time sympathizing on why some people do not agree with the application of essentialism when it comes to self-identity. Many cis-individuals have hard time sympathizing with the reasons of why transgender individuals go against essentialism when it comes to gender because a lot of us cis-individuals do not have a experience of feeling a gender and a lot of us identify as what in our birth certificates because it is convenient.

Regarding being born that way, I'd have to point out that the scientific community that investigates sexual orientation and gender has not yet reach to the a conclusion of what causes a person to be inclined that way or whether it should or not be seen as static for everyone, and that's ignoring semantic issues regarding sexual orientation and gender as there is no clear consensus on what constitutes a sexuality or gender. As far as whether everyone is born that way, it's hard to argue that everyone is as neuroplasticity is a thing and there's absolutely no reason to believe that sexuality or gender is immune to changes to the brain while it been proven countless of times that one's ability or personality are affected by changes to the brain which influences an aspect to a person. That position does not imply that one can simply be changed by wills.

Quote from: codyfletcher on March 22, 2015, 01:32:40 PM
Wow, Thank you so much for that indignation. If I did offend I'm terribly sorry, I was not trying to imply that being transgender was something by choice, i was rather searching for answers straight from the source, not some BS that I could get from a so called "doctor". You all are incredibly brave to be able to go out and be yourselves even when you know for a fact you risk facing persecution, discrimination, and even in some cases assault. It deeply saddens me to hear some of the peoples stories here, as 100% of them that I have read so far, always started off really really low. However, there is light at the end of every tunnel thus far and everything just gets lighter from there.

I definitely couldn't imagine just suddenly waking up as a female after 22 years of being a male, Though it would be a nice change of pace assuming female hormones could change my personality. I basically have none in terms of emotions, that part of me died years ago and just hasn't been reborn over that period of time. I honestly don't even know if it ever will return, however I'm more than happy that others don't have to go through the same thing, many say, "gosh, i wish i could just be numb for a change" you do think that until it happens. How i wish i could be romantic or more intimate with my wife, but I simply can't find that it me anymore, It's not that I don't love her with all my heart, I simply can't express it in ways that most other people can.

Don't worry, after reading your post a few times I knew you had good intentions. I think it's great that you want to learn more. There are many cis gender people out there who don't really take the time to learn about trans people or transgender issues because they aren't affected by them. I was a little taken aback at first but that's only because family members of mine insist that being transgender is a choice and a lifestyle. I've kind of been conditioned to expect that it's a loaded question when someone asks why I'm doing this or that in regards to my gender identity.

I understand exactly what you mean about feeling numb and I'm sorry you're experiencing that. I felt that way for years, mostly due to the toxic environment created by my family. I hated having no emotions but I just accepted it, thinking that "I don't have any happiness but at least I don't have any sadness either" because of how severe my depression could get at times. What I didn't realize was that my numbness actually was a symptom of my depression. I started seeing a therapist around this time last year and was put on an antidepressant which has helped that numbness gradually fade. Maybe something like that could help you too?

Female hormones would have an effect on your emotions but I don't think they would change your personality. In fact, they may do more harm than good if your brain is wired as male because it isn't meant to be operating on female hormones so that may make your emotions unstable.

I'm sure your emotions are still there though, sometimes it just takes a while before you're able to feel them again.

Quote from: Reptillian on March 22, 2015, 11:45:26 PM
As someone who is cis-sexual or cis-genderless (A term I made up for transgender individuals to understand my point of view), I never really liked the assumption from many trans-individuals that every cis-individuals have a feeling of gender because that simply doesn't apply to all of them and especially for those individuals who have no reason to identify other than they are born with those parts or the philosophy of essentialism being applied to biological sex and identity. I would fall under that camp as I do not have a reason to identify based upon feelings because it is not something that makes sense to me, and nor I am capable of caring to identify based upon feelings as I lack a feeling of gender while I find that essentialism makes sense for me.  I also couldn't careless about gender roles and gender roles are officially dead where I am at (If you were to go into my neighborhood, you'd see that no one enforces roles for members of people who carry a certain body because they're dead.), and from my experience, there's no good reason to believe that there is major differences in the behaviors of women and men while differences are due to inherent properties which affects their psychology indirectly such as being able to breed or having very observable anatomical characteristics.

That being said, I think the OP wants to know why transgender identify in a way that goes contrary to the application of essentialism as the OP may have hard time sympathizing on why some people do not agree with the application of essentialism when it comes to self-identity. Many cis-individuals have hard time sympathizing with the reasons of why transgender individuals go against essentialism when it comes to gender because a lot of us cis-individuals do not have a experience of feeling a gender and a lot of us identify as what in our birth certificates because it is convenient.

Regarding being born that way, I'd have to point out that the scientific community that investigates sexual orientation and gender has not yet reach to the a conclusion of what causes a person to be inclined that way or whether it should or not be seen as static for everyone, and that's ignoring semantic issues regarding sexual orientation and gender as there is no clear consensus on what constitutes a sexuality or gender. As far as whether everyone is born that way, it's hard to argue that everyone is as neuroplasticity is a thing and there's absolutely no reason to believe that sexuality or gender is immune to changes to the brain while it been proven countless of times that one's ability or personality are affected by changes to the brain which influences an aspect to a person. That position does not imply that one can simply be changed by wills.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly so you can let me know if I'm misinterpreting your post but I agree that there are people who don't necessarily "feel" that they're a particular gender. It's exactly for the reason you mentioned; they're comfortable with the physical sex they were born as and comfortable with the gender roles society places upon them as a result because they use their physical anatomy to define their gender. Gender as an internal feeling isn't inherent to them but gender as a physical property is. It's sort of like what I mentioned in my first post, they are what they are, most people just seem to accept that they're either male or female according to their anatomy and they don't give gender a second thought.

I think you also mentioned that this is why it can be difficult to explain gender dysphoria to cis people. For many of them it's difficult to understand how a person isn't able to determine their gender based on physical cues and it's difficult to explain "feeling" that you're a particular gender since gender itself isn't exactly an emotion or something that can be felt. What can be felt though, what transgender people feel, is the discomfort they experience because of their anatomical sex. So it would seem that people don't necessarily feel their gender, they're either indifferent or they're uncomfortable with it.

It's really interesting that you live in a place where there aren't any gender roles and I wonder how that's possible. I believe gender roles are just a manifestation of a society that places unnecessary restrictions upon people. I would love to experience a place that doesn't differentiate between male and female roles.

Quote from: Contravene on March 23, 2015, 03:42:18 AM
...  I agree that there are people who don't necessarily "feel" that they're a particular gender. It's exactly for the reason you mentioned; they're comfortable with the physical sex they were born as and comfortable with the gender roles society places upon them as a result because they use their physical anatomy to define their gender. ...

That's not always true.

I definitely don't feel male (my physical sex) other than anatomically, and I have never felt  comfortable with the gender roles placed on me because of it.  But that doesn't mean I feel female (whatever that means.)

If anything, my not feeling like a particular gender is related to how uncomfortable I always was with the whole "being a man" mishegoss.  When people tried to teach me to be masculine, it was like crows trying to teach a gopher how to fly.  And pecking and clawing at him until he finally stops pretending he can't.

There are also people here who feel like they are a gender, except that the gender they feel they are is a mix of male and female.  Or that their gender shifts between male and female.  I won't try to explain it any further, I'd be like a blind person trying to explain what red looks like.  But they report feeling very uncomfortable being stuffed into one or the other of the ANSI standard gender boxes.

Look up "non-binary gender" some time (although the Wikipedia article on it is rather clueless.)

Quote from: Asche on March 23, 2015, 07:00:51 AM
That's not always true.

I definitely don't feel male (my physical sex) other than anatomically, and I have never felt  comfortable with the gender roles placed on me because of it.  But that doesn't mean I feel female (whatever that means.)

If anything, my not feeling like a particular gender is related to how uncomfortable I always was with the whole "being a man" mishegoss.  When people tried to teach me to be masculine, it was like crows trying to teach a gopher how to fly.  And pecking and clawing at him until he finally stops pretending he can't.

There are also people here who feel like they are a gender, except that the gender they feel they are is a mix of male and female.  Or that their gender shifts between male and female.  I won't try to explain it any further, I'd be like a blind person trying to explain what red looks like.  But they report feeling very uncomfortable being stuffed into one or the other of the ANSI standard gender boxes.

Look up "non-binary gender" some time (although the Wikipedia article on it is rather clueless.)

I understand what "non-binary" gender is. I also understand that there are people, cis or otherwise, who are not comfortable with gender roles and who feel that they have an inherent sense of gender. Some do, many don't hence the wording in all of my posts "there are people out there...", "many people...", "a lot of people". I never said or implied that all cis people are comfortable with their gender roles and such. My point was that it's difficult to explain what dysphoria is to those who don't have an internal feeling of gender. I think dysphoria is a little easier to explain to people who do because they can imagine being in a body that doesn't match their internal gender. It's probably also a bit easier to explain dysphoria to those who are uncomfortable with society's gender roles because at some point they've felt a sense of dysphoria over being placed into a gender role they feel they don't belong in as you described feeling.

Quote from: Contravene on March 23, 2015, 03:42:18 AM
I agree that there are people who don't necessarily "feel" that they're a particular gender. It's exactly for the reason you mentioned; they're comfortable with the physical sex they were born as and comfortable with the gender roles society places upon them as a result because they use their physical anatomy to define their gender.

Contravene, may I disagree? I don't "feel" like a female. If anything, I feel like a male, but I'm definitely MtF transgender and have been living happily as a woman full time for the past year and a half.

My gender therapist, who has been working with transfolk for over 20 years, says that what gender you feel like, does not always have anything to do with whether you are trans or need to transition.

Whilst I respect your view Suzi I think what the op meant as far as the not feeling their particular gender and being comfortable with their designated sex at birth is this. Really basically a description of CIs in that they don't think about it as transgender does. I am not saying you are wrong in any way but somewhere you thought something must have been off to think of transitioning let alone do it. If I were to guess its more like you want to be you not necessarily male or female just you. Just something not describable that you needed to transition.

As a note I am still fairly early in discovery but I feel I get the gist of what I really am if that makes sense and In a way I am like you Suzi its just something that I need to do not for attention not for a lark but for something that is much deeper that cant really be explained. As I said pretty early in my discovery so I could be way out in the ball park and please forgive me if I am misinterpreting what you mean.

Quote from: codyfletcher on March 22, 2015, 11:01:32 AM
@mfox, you mentioned "I eventually realize most of my problems came down to being transgender." Do you really see this as being an actual problem? Or is it more just factual to you. In my opinion, The fact that you are transgender shouldn't necessarily be born a problem, rather I think it should be more of an enlightenment to something you already knew but wasn't completely sure of. Which brings me to my next question, What was the final straw or the ultimatum that led to your actual transition, I'd certainly like to hear others experiences as well. If this is all too much i can certainly stop at anytime.

Sure, being transgender isn't a problem to me in itself, it's just the closest diagnosis of all of the symptoms I've had since I was about 10 years old.  Like you say, it's the enlightenment that was missing.  I just lived with the dysphoria and anxiety until one day it dawned on me.

The epiphany came when I was first dressed up believably as a female, complete with professional makeup, breast forms, wig, etc..  It was just part of a performance and I didn't think anything of it.  But when I saw myself in the mirror, it mentally clicked.  I had made steps to feminize before that, like laser hair removal, to fix what I thought was just body dysphoria.  The final straws to start HRT was when I realized I might be starting to lose hair on my forehead, and that my "pretend to be male" dysphoria was starting to cause panic attacks.

Quote from: Contravene on March 23, 2015, 03:42:18 AM
I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly so you can let me know if I'm misinterpreting your post but I agree that there are people who don't necessarily "feel" that they're a particular gender. It's exactly for the reason you mentioned; they're comfortable with the physical sex they were born as and comfortable with the gender roles society places upon them as a result because they use their physical anatomy to define their gender. Gender as an internal feeling isn't inherent to them but gender as a physical property is. It's sort of like what I mentioned in my first post, they are what they are, most people just seem to accept that they're either male or female according to their anatomy and they don't give gender a second thought.

Well, some people who are comfortable with the physical sex that they were born as are not necessarily comfortable with gender roles, and yes it seems that the majority of people just accept their gender as a physical property as it.

Quote from: Contravene on March 23, 2015, 03:42:18 AMI think you also mentioned that this is why it can be difficult to explain gender dysphoria to cis people. For many of them it's difficult to understand how a person isn't able to determine their gender based on physical cues and it's difficult to explain "feeling" that you're a particular gender since gender itself isn't exactly an emotion or something that can be felt. What can be felt though, what transgender people feel, is the discomfort they experience because of their anatomical sex. So it would seem that people don't necessarily feel their gender, they're either indifferent or they're uncomfortable with it.

That's exactly what I was saying or at least close to that.

Quote from: Contravene on March 23, 2015, 03:42:18 AMIt's really interesting that you live in a place where there aren't any gender roles and I wonder how that's possible. I believe gender roles are just a manifestation of a society that places unnecessary restrictions upon people. I would love to experience a place that doesn't differentiate between male and female roles.

When it comes to how it's possible, it's possible if somehow there is some people who decided to challenge gender roles while gender roles becomes less significant over time because of changes to a culture, then over time gender roles gets so insignificant that there's no point bothering with supporting them. Gender roles isn't as important as it once was and we can already see that through changing thoughts on the roles of women as well as the pay-rate though I must add that sexism is still a issue to this very day, but it's not as big as it once was. In here, where I'm at, the only thing they seem to enforce regarding genders are what clothes to wear.

Quote from: Contravene on March 23, 2015, 02:52:11 AM
Don't worry, after reading your post a few times I knew you had good intentions. I think it's great that you want to learn more. There are many cis gender people out there who don't really take the time to learn about trans people or transgender issues because they aren't affected by them. I was a little taken aback at first but that's only because family members of mine insist that being transgender is a choice and a lifestyle. I've kind of been conditioned to expect that it's a loaded question when someone asks why I'm doing this or that in regards to my gender identity.

I understand exactly what you mean about feeling numb and I'm sorry you're experiencing that. I felt that way for years, mostly due to the toxic environment created by my family. I hated having no emotions but I just accepted it, thinking that "I don't have any happiness but at least I don't have any sadness either" because of how severe my depression could get at times. What I didn't realize was that my numbness actually was a symptom of my depression. I started seeing a therapist around this time last year and was put on an antidepressant which has helped that numbness gradually fade. Maybe something like that could help you too?

Female hormones would have an effect on your emotions but I don't think they would change your personality. In fact, they may do more harm than good if your brain is wired as male because it isn't meant to be operating on female hormones so that may make your emotions unstable.

I'm sure your emotions are still there though, sometimes it just takes a while before you're able to feel them again.

Aye that, Never really crossed my mind to try female hormones, as I don't think it would do me all that much good in my sense. I was on paxil for about a year but all that did was make me suicidal and even attempted it at one time. It's odd because, even though I tried something so final, I really don't feel that bad or anything at all really about it. It's hard to explain. After having my child I decided for certain I would never attempt anything like that again, so as not to be a selfish mongrel.

Now in terms of gender roles, I don't think that people necessarily transition due to them because even me, perfectly comfortable being a male, am not completely down with the gender roles we are handed down. I think over time combined with the ridiculous amount of sexism towards women the gender roles of males have been slowly twisted and just grow toxic everyday. The general stereotype of a male role is Always hungry for sex, dominant of all else, Does all the work to bring money, never cleans anything, blah blah blah the list goes on. Now in THAT sense I think it's just preposterous that a male HAS to be that way and some of the things that have been adapted into the male gender role are really just down right disgusting. The way that women see THE MAJORITY of men is awful, but i can't say i blame them. For example, a women is hurt by a man and has a hard time finding another mate because she's scared to get hurt again. Obviously every single man isn't going to do the same things now picture this, You go into a cage of grizzly bears and the zookeeper says, "don't worry some of them are nice and some of them will tear you apart" You are still going to be nervous CUZ IT'S A FREAKING BEAR. So in that sense, I find myself uncomfortable with some of the male "gender roles".

My therapist asked me if I could be happy being male in a world where there were no gender roles and all clothing was unisex. I immediately, without having to think said no, because I'm not male.

I can dress in male drag, do male things, play a male roll, it doesn't bother me much to. I even have little bottom dysphoria, but deep down, and I can't explain it, I'm a woman.

Not all trans people are like me, maybe not even many. We have many differences. You can't point at any one thing and say " that's unequivocally trans." People can explain away every little trait and behavior. Believe me, I've been forced into that game. But I can be happy self-identified as trans, broke and unemployed. I can give up anything for my wife whom I love dearly, but I can't give up this. I wasn't happy with a house, a six figure income, travel and expensive hobbies even though I had no idea I was trans when I had that life. (Rather have both! ;) )

Being trans isn't a logical choice or easily explained, it's a biological imperative, at least for me.

Quote from: Dee Walker on March 23, 2015, 11:29:03 AM
I can dress in male drag, do male things, play a male roll, it doesn't bother me much to. I even have little bottom dysphoria, but deep down, and I can't explain it, I'm a woman.
I can give up anything for my wife whom I love dearly, but I can't give up this.
Being trans isn't a logical choice or easily explained, it's a biological imperative, at least for me.

I agree with each of these too.
Regarding the original question of how one comes to this conclusion, I think a lot of it also depends on how much we know at what stage of life. For example, I recently posted on https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,184981.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,184981.0.html) how my knowledge of trans people has grown within the last one year, and that has helped me accept myself.
Before that, I had lived all these years knowing that my feelings, thoughts and emotions leaned towards the female side, and that I would have preferred to be born female if I had had that choice, but I also accepted the conventional essentialist view of gender and thought I could live with my gender assigned at birth. I simply did not know the details of transitioning, as I thought "sex change" only meant surgeries which might still leave one 'somewhere in the middle' and possibly open to ridicule and harassment. I also thought that unless one had a lot of money, this would also mean the loss of everything in one's life so far. I didn't want to have any of that, and still don't, although I am now more prepared to face it and counter it if it comes to that.
Keeping surgeries aside, I did not know how HRT and a lot of small steps you can take for yourself can help you become more comfortable with your body, and that there are people who successfully go through this transition and find acceptance and also maintain their existing lives.

Regarding gender roles, I think they have been changing everywhere and becoming more relaxed, although a lot of sexism still exists.
I can see the difference, for example, between how my parents shared their responsibilities (which was a positive change from the generation before them and so on) and how my wife and I go about it. Since my wife and I already have a fairly 'equal' marriage, and my job is in a field with less strict gender roles than usual, I do not really 'hate' my current gender roles much. I am not too dysphoric about my body either. Despite that, I now want to bring my body, my outward appearance and the way people see me more in line with what I have always known my mind to be. I didn't want this until even a few months ago, and was content to continue living the way I always had, and occasionally indulge myself with 'cross-dressing' etc. The difference now is that I know what is medically and socially possible while earlier I didn't. So I now want to live my life more fully instead of just accepting my fate.

Also, since there was some discussion about how cis people think about their gender, I think the video here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,185075.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,185075.0.html) is interesting where the lady asks Hank how does he know he is male.
He seems to be at a loss for words, and just says that it is like a 'path of least resistance' or something.
I thought the same way until recently, except that I also had the hidden self-awareness of which direction my feelings and emotions leaned towards.

Quote from: cindy16 on March 23, 2015, 12:19:53 PM
I had lived all these years knowing that my feelings, thoughts and emotions leaned towards the female side, and that I would have preferred to be born female if I had had that choice, but I also accepted the conventional essentialist view of gender and thought I could live with my gender assigned at birth. I simply did not know the details of transitioning, as I thought "sex change" only meant surgeries which might still leave one 'somewhere in the middle' and possibly open to ridicule and harassment. I also thought that unless one had a lot of money, this would also mean the loss of everything in one's life so far. I didn't want to have any of that, and still don't, although I am now more prepared to face it and counter it if it comes to that.
Keeping surgeries aside, I did not know how HRT and a lot of small steps you can take for yourself can help you become more comfortable with your body, and that there are people who successfully go through this transition and find acceptance and also maintain their existing lives.

This is how I felt too. :)

I think that the fact that so many of us can't explain to cis people what we mean, but that we can nod our heads at the attempt, even given the differences between us, is very telling. Perhaps it's not so much that there are real differences between trans people, but that the difficulty in expressing our truth to those who don't share it makes it appear that we have real differences.

Quote from: Dee Walker on March 23, 2015, 12:53:40 PM
I think that the fact that so many of us can't explain to cis people what we mean, but that we can nod our heads at the attempt, even given the differences between us, is very telling. Perhaps it's not so much that there are real differences between trans people, but that the difficulty in expressing our truth to those who don't share it makes it appear that we have real differences.

I agree.

I don't think the trans experience can be explained in cis terms.  (It's actually "trans experiences", since each trans person is trans in their own way.)

One of the benefits of cis privilege is that you don't have to be conscious of your gender.  Just as white people don't have to be aware of their race (because they're just "people") and people who speak with the dominant accent in their country can believe that they don't have an accent, so cis people don't have to be aware that their sense of who they are matches their anatomical and social sex.  Because, except when those pesky trans people parade themselves around, there isn't even a concept for them not matching.

Ultimately, if a cis person wants to understand what it's like to be trans, they're going to have to do the work themselves.  It's not something that can be explained.  You have to expand your consciousness to make room for an experience that is alien to you.

It's easier for trans people to understand cis people, because we are saturated with "the cis experience."

BTW, I think there are real differences among trans people, too.  There are plenty of people here who describe things I can't understand.  However, I recognize that that is my limitation and try to simply accept their experiences as real and valid.  A lifetime of being on the receiving end of "I don't understand you, therefore you don't exist" makes you sensitive to these things.

True, Asche. I don't, nor will I ever, understand how a trans person can live happily without the "right" hormones in their system. I tried one night, for my Sweetie's sake. I barely made it through the night. I tried again on Sunday and before I even missed a dose I couldn't take it. I don't understand trans people who don't need hormones, but I know they're real. There's something common to all of us, I think, that I can't articulate. I only know it's real because other's experiences ring true to me and mine to them. But quintessential trans-ness? It exists, but I have no clue what it is.

I think the only way to best describe it may be something along the lines of your soul is what it is but fell into the wrong body. I agree its something that is not explainable without experience much like many things in life really.

I can think of and adage that fits in a way what will a cornered rat do? Not saying we are rats of course but the idea that you can not totally explain what it will do because you are not in its hmm feet (shoes). You could only know if you were put in that position.

I know this is horrible and remove if deemed to offensive but an old question what would you do if your plane crashed in the middle of nowhere and there was no food? Basically the instinct of survival or not and you can never truly answer the question if never put in that position.

To be honest its been hard enough to explain it to myself really let alone how to convey what I feel yet I do have doubts too atm just a fight for now.

For me, I have come to the understanding that in the points that count the most, I am male. Those points are mentally and spiritually, I am male. I have always been able to present more or less androgenously, but identified as female because on thesurface, that is what I saw and what the world told me I was.

Looking back, I always had a more male mentality from the time I was small. My dad has told me that he stopped others from trying to squash my male mannerisms. Mom said I never liked girly stuff. I had a cisfemale friend who got frustrated with me (early 20s) and stalked away after proclaiming "You think like a guy!" to which my mind went, "and that's bad because?" I preferred playing sports and wrestling with my male cousins. In more recent years, I have had a heightened sense of sitting over my own shoulder watching my life. I have come to the realization that is because I don't identify as female, yet identified as "female" because I have a female body. I identify now as Male, and though I have a female body, that's changeable. Back to the early 20s, I had a respected elder female friend who had to teach me how to be feminine and wear a skirt.

I'm still me, but since identifying myself as Trans and more particularly as Male, the paradigm has slipped into its proper position and I'm viewing the world from my own eyes, instead of behind my shoulder as an observer.

I've had this thing since I was little that I just gravitate toward femininity when given the chance.

When I was 12, when my mom was first leaving me alone at home, I (through a self dare) tried on my mom's bra and a flood of "girly" feelings came to me that was so wonderful I couldn't deny that I loved it.  It started years and years of cross dressing and me exploring my feminine / girly / womanly feelings. 

I first tried on a woman's long wig 14 years ago and upon seeing myself in the mirror, what I saw staring back at me was the real me.

I can allow myself to talk with my "real" voice and my voice in a short while automatically becomes very feminine (I did train my voice long ago, but it doesn't click unless I am allowed to feel female.) 

I do exercises where I'm allowed to "feel free" and "feel light", and always I start automatically acting very feminine.  When in a friendly environment, I start using feminine gestures without thought.

Seven years ago, when I was going to TG clubs, I "tricked" myself into believing that I was always living as a woman, and in that mental state I felt totally female and I acted feminine virtually automatically, and I had the spirit of a fun, bubbly, feminine young woman.  It's one of the biggest things that depresses me when I remember it.

I've never been interested in having sex as a male.  My idea of sex for the longest time really had been just kissing and foreplay.  Never actually really doing it (other than embarrassment that I was still a virgin.)    Upon allowing myself to explore the idea of having sex as a woman about at least 12 years ago, I absolutely loved it, loved it to the point that all my fantasies gravitated toward being the bottom (with a vagina) and I feel so wonderful when imagining myself being penetrated.

I don't think its about whatever gender I feel, I believe I'm more of an outside-in, that my outside influences what gender I feel, but that from long experience I gravitate toward being female, and so much of me is female, and I'd much rather prefer feeling female.  In addition, I feel like that since I am a feeler, and am naturally emotionally sensitive (despite years of trying to kill off emotions when I was younger), that the male gender is a hostile place to be, vs the female gender being accommodative and even supportive of emotional freedom.  I can't tell you how much I yearn to be in a supportive environment, and being in a gender that is supportive of who you are means a lot to me.

Quote from: Reptillian on March 22, 2015, 11:45:26 PMThat being said, I think the OP wants to know why transgender identify in a way that goes contrary to the application of essentialism as the OP may have hard time sympathizing on why some people do not agree with the application of essentialism when it comes to self-identity. Many cis-individuals have hard time sympathizing with the reasons of why transgender individuals go against essentialism when it comes to gender because a lot of us cis-individuals do not have a experience of feeling a gender and a lot of us identify as what in our birth certificates because it is convenient.

Well, what happens if you born and accepted yourself as male based on your exterior at first, but then through self discovery, you find more and more that your actually like the opposite gender rather than the gender you born in?  And this incongruity thus gives you stress and feelings like your in the wrong gender group, and body as well?  And that staying in your gender group is akin to being in a straight jacket, or being slowly suffocated, because you aren't in an environment that you can freely express yourself?  And then you have to see people of the opposite sex having the same traits as you and being able to live freely, as you silently suffer in an invisible prison created by your own body?  That's kind of like me.

Like you, I don't have a strong sense of gender inside, but the way I want to be, the way that I found myself to be naturally, is largely female.  I may be more gender fluid in the sense that even though many times I don't feel a strong sense of gender, depending on how I express myself I do "feel" the gender, like when I am dressed as female or talk in my female voice for awhile, I do feel strongly female and easily able to identify as female, whereas if conditions are right, I do feel strongly male and "guyish", even though it's temporary, but it only goes to an extent (doesn't transfer over to liking my body or liking to "bang a chick" for instance) and within time (a day to a week) I feel the dysphoria again, and it gets more intense if I have to stay acting like a straight male.  Staying closer to the androgynous territory for me has helped me with my dysphoria, but it probably has kept the "critical mass" from happening to me (where I'd run away from my life and desperately seek to transition) compared to if I still had to pretend that I was a straight male. 

For me, feminine just feels right, even if I have some stereotypical nerdy male interests, I feel like I am doing the right thing for myself when I look and behave feminine. Acting masculine often feels exactly that, like an act, the problem is that I've had so much experience in it, I am having to learn how to be the person I see myself as. It also seems like there is some kind of "inner force" that pushes me to become more feminine. It almost felt like I wasn't entirely in control the day I went out and purchased my first female clothes and beauty supplies, I just had to. It is that same "inner force" that gets me through painful electrolysis sessions with very little in the way of numbing agents and anti-inflammatories, and makes me feel a little better afterwards because some of the "man shell" was erased to let the woman shine through (even if she is a little red, swollen, and itchy). Female just fits me for some reason, I may be a nerdy, socially awkward female who was raised as a male , but still a female on the inside, and hopefully one day on the outside too.

Quote from: Katelyn on March 24, 2015, 05:36:58 PM
Well, what happens if you born and accepted yourself as male based on your exterior at first, but then through self discovery, you find more and more that your actually like the opposite gender rather than the gender you born in?  And this incongruity thus gives you stress and feelings like your in the wrong gender group, and body as well?  And that staying in your gender group is akin to being in a straight jacket, or being slowly suffocated, because you aren't in an environment that you can freely express yourself?  And then you have to see people of the opposite sex having the same traits as you and being able to live freely, as you silently suffer in an invisible prison created by your own body?  That's kind of like me.

Like you, I don't have a strong sense of gender inside, but the way I want to be, the way that I found myself to be naturally, is largely female.  I may be more gender fluid in the sense that even though many times I don't feel a strong sense of gender, depending on how I express myself I do "feel" the gender, like when I am dressed as female or talk in my female voice for awhile, I do feel strongly female and easily able to identify as female, whereas if conditions are right, I do feel strongly male and "guyish", even though it's temporary, but it only goes to an extent (doesn't transfer over to liking my body or liking to "bang a chick" for instance) and within time (a day to a week) I feel the dysphoria again, and it gets more intense if I have to stay acting like a straight male.  Staying closer to the androgynous territory for me has helped me with my dysphoria, but it probably has kept the "critical mass" from happening to me (where I'd run away from my life and desperately seek to transition) compared to if I still had to pretend that I was a straight male.

If by seeing myself as opposite gender means I see myself behaving and feeling the same way as those who identify as the opposite gender, then in that case, I would go see a shrink as I am one of the last person to believe that there is fundamental psychological differences between members of the sexes/gender and I already came to the conclusion that they do not act all that differently at all after trying to see behavioral differences for years. Here where I'm at, once again, gender roles are dead and no one cares about how you act, and neither there is so much of a difference in the way that males and females act.

Quote from: Reptillian on March 23, 2015, 10:15:04 AM
Gender roles isn't as important as it once was and we can already see that through changing thoughts on the roles of women as well as the pay-rate though I must add that sexism is still a issue to this very day, but it's not as big as it once was. In here, where I'm at, the only thing they seem to enforce regarding genders are what clothes to wear.

Quote from: Reptillian on March 25, 2015, 10:29:55 AM
Here where I'm at, once again, gender roles are dead and no one cares about how you act, and neither there is so much of a difference in the way that males and females act.

If you mean archetypal gender roles like what professions to choose, how much someone gets paid, how to divide household and parenting duties, etc then maybe yes, these are reducing in importance but not fully dead. And yet some of them are strictly enforced such as what to wear, as you yourself said.

But there are psychological differences which can be attributed to body parts, as you said, and they are very much real. And the mismatch resulting from that is what most people on this site go through, else we wouldn't be here in the first place. It is difficult if not impossible to imagine unless one goes through it themselves. And then it spills over into social dysphoria too, not just physical, because even if gender roles are becoming less important for cis folk, they suddenly seem to crop up with a vengeance if one wants to 'cross the gender divide'.

Quote from: Reptillian on March 25, 2015, 10:29:55 AM
I am one of the last person to believe that there is fundamental psychological differences between members of the sexes/gender

Quote from: Reptillian on March 25, 2015, 10:29:55 AM
I already came to the conclusion that they do not act all that differently at all.
neither there is so much of a difference in the way that males and females act.

Also, I hope you realize that these two are slightly different positions to take.

The first quote says that there are no fundamental psychological differences between genders which is an absolutist position, which can easily be carried over to say that there is no such thing as transgender, that there is no such thing as an internal gender identity and that gender is purely socially constructed. Many people, including famous psychologists, psychiatrists and even feminist activists believed this for years, and many still do despite evidence to the contrary. It is also funny that especially when this thinking was applied to denying the right of transgenders to even exist, they found themselves in agreement with precisely the same patriarchal nut-jobs who were otherwise quite happy with upholding traditional gender roles that oppressed women.

The second quote is a more nuanced position, that there is 'not much of a difference', which may be true. Not just behavior, but even all those theories about men being better at one skill v/s women being better at another etc may be quite exaggerated, if not completely false.

Quote from: cindy16 on March 25, 2015, 10:51:42 AM
If you mean archetypal gender roles like what professions to choose, how much someone gets paid, how to divide household and parenting duties, etc then maybe yes, these are reducing in importance but not fully dead. And yet some of them are strictly enforced such as what to wear, as you yourself said.

That's the sad thing about society today is that they still enforces things like this when it should have went irrelevant a while ago, and while there's less support for gender differences in the modern society, a lot of places still heavily enforces gender roles or what members of gender are suppose to wear (clothes are not gender roles).

Quote from: cindy16 on March 25, 2015, 10:51:42 AMBut there are psychological differences which can be attributed to body parts, as you said, and they are very much real. And the mismatch resulting from that is what most people on this site go through, else we wouldn't be here in the first place. It is difficult if not impossible to imagine unless one goes through it themselves. And then it spills over into social dysphoria too, not just physical, because even if gender roles are becoming less important for cis folk, they suddenly seem to crop up with a vengeance if one wants to 'cross the gender divide'.

At first, I thought it would make sense regarding psychological differences being attributed to how apparent are certain body parts, but then I realize that a lot of that has to do with society's belief, and how they treat them. Saying that there are psychological differences between members of sexes/gender isn't enough for me to support the idea that females and males are different (I have yet to see a convincing case that there is fundamental psychological difference between the sexes/gender that can't be attributed to society), and even if gender roles are vanished, there are still going to be people who are transgender much in the same way that there are people out there who thinks they're too skinny or fat when in reality, their body is fat or skinny when compared to others. My point is that there is always going to be people out there who thinks their own body is not what they should be regardless of what society tells them, and gender is no different.

Quote from: cindy16 on March 25, 2015, 11:11:53 AM
Also, I hope you realize that these two are slightly different positions to take.

The first quote says that there are no fundamental psychological differences between genders which is an absolutist position, which can easily be carried over to say that there is no such thing as transgender, that there is no such thing as an internal gender identity and that gender is purely socially constructed. Many people, including famous psychologists, psychiatrists and even feminist activists believed this for years, and many still do despite evidence to the contrary. It is also funny that especially when this thinking was applied to denying the right of transgenders to even exist, they found themselves in agreement with precisely the same patriarchal nut-jobs who were otherwise quite happy with upholding traditional gender roles that oppressed women.

The second quote is a more nuanced position, that there is 'not much of a difference', which may be true. Not just behavior, but even all those theories about men being better at one skill v/s women being better at another etc may be quite exaggerated, if not completely false.

While, yes it can be carried to that being no such thing as transgender, one must note that psychology is not the same thing as neurology, and with that line of reasoning, there being no fundamental psychological differences does not translate to there being no conditions in the brain that exists to one being transgender meaning that gender can still exist even if there is no fundamental difference. Regarding evidences, there are things like Reis and Carothers study, and there are other studies that have evidence contrary to that study, and the thing is that we can't eliminate social factors as a whole and we can't eliminate biology which means we can't get into a proper conclusion of what reality is really is. 

Quote from: Reptillian on March 25, 2015, 11:23:52 AM
there being no fundamental psychological differences does not translate to there being no conditions in the brain that exists to one being transgender meaning that gender can still exist even if there is no fundamental difference. 

As long as one is aware of these nuances, it's fine.

hmm... Exact same clothing and exact same social roles in society. I don't care if If everyone has to wear ratty jeans and a  Duck Dynasty T-shirt, I would prefer to do it with a female body.

I am in a belief there is a difference between male and female psychology.

Why do I say that is we learn by experiences and it is proven that females have a better sense of smell, see colors more vivid and lets face it CIS have to learn to deal with the period. Take the first 2 at least and think if one sees the world in a different light then they will also come to different conclusions and therefor react to certain situations in a different way. Which would then mean they do in fact think a little differently but being both intelligent and human well not that different as to be alien. From what I have read the brain structure is a little different as well which also changes the way we think. What made Einstien so smart well his bridges between both sides of his brain was very small so he could think more efficiently. Of course there are similarities yet there is also differences even if subtle does add up to yup different in general.

One general example comes to mind the does have a high tendency to be accurate is the male response to physical threat is to attack the female response is to run aka fight or flight concept. Oddly I think if it was a verbal threat it has a higher chance of it doesn't really matter the gender which goes to show some things are a little different but have to look at the sum of it all.

Perhaps and this is just my theory of course is why some are transgender and some are not is that those who view themselves as transgender find something in themselves that is not right in some way not overly explainable and wish to align themselves accordingly. Perhaps a greater self awareness then most to certain aspects of themselves and their surroundings and an imbalance with surroundings. Of course with the something not right pertaining to fit in with what we are taught by society as to what is and is not for one or the other gender. A big but is that is the logical explanation then there is the spiritual/emotional/soul aspect that is not logical but rather irrational and not really easy to convey in words.

If there Is no difference in that aspect then I ask this what is the difference between a mean and nice person is there really no difference well of course there is. So why could there not be a difference between genders or a mix of such as the mean/nice person idea. There are after all very nice people and people that are indifferent and some down right nasty. Gender is one albeit important aspect but just one aspect of who we really are but there are tendencies due to experience and really in a sense just how we physically formed that are in fact different just not so vastly as comparing apples and oranges but ya they are both fruits.

PS not saying we are fruity or nutty:)

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 22, 2015, 05:16:57 AM
My brain is wired so that when I see myself as a female, I like what I see. When I see myself as a male, I don't.

It has nothing to do with "feeling" feminine or masculine or wanting to be a different person. I'm me, that's all I'll ever be, whether masculine or feminine. There are some very masculine trans women and feminine trans men, but they still need to be who they are.

That's not it.

My brain needs me to be female. It's that simple.

I didn't "need ->-bleeped-<-". I am transgender.

Thats how i feel!!!