Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So in my government class we debate frequently. Sometimes we have a day set aside for debating. Well last week we talked on and on about gay marriage and I said, without thinking, "Would it be considered gay marriage if a straight man marries a women who he didn't know was a transsexual?"

I then had to explain what it was and the class erupted. Half were okay with it, but the other half, in particular this one guy I'm not friendly with, said 'those people' are wrong and disgusting and all sorts of stuff and why would I bring that up. I said, in my anger and defense, "Because I am one of 'those people' *name*" The class got silent and all looked at me and after a while of questions and confusion I basically angrily outed myself. So then I went back to the question at hand when we settled down and again asked it. But everyone was pretty confused. So I took to the halls and even the streets and asked the question, "If a man were to marry a transsexual women, is it considered gay marriage or traditional marriage, even though she was once a male?"

I got mixed results. Some said it's gay marriage, even after I explained you couldn't tell they still said so. Others said it was somewhat traditional. Some said it's whatever, they married. Getting back to class I brought it up again. One girl asked why it matters if she was once a man, she's a women now. Shouldn't be an issue. I said, "But she is a man genetically." (not trying to bash on anyone in any way, I was doing this for a reason). After saying and being very persuasive against the scenario ladies case, the class basically then said it's a problem and, in a way, gay marriage.

"Now keep what yall said in mind. If she looks a women, sounds a women, acts, walks, talks, and basically is a women but is genetically male, it's gay marriage, right? Now what if a two men were to marry but the one guy was once a female? Then what? Is it traditional marriage then or gay marriage because of appearances?"

This basically brought the class to a standstill, which happened once before due to (taadaa) me, and for a while, nobody talked. Everyone sat either looking at me or in deep thought or texting. But nobody talked. The bell rang and our teacher said we'll discuss it tomorrow, which we did. Before that she asked me to stay and asked why I brought it up. My response was, to me, simple:

"Gay marriage is a problem to some but what if it's between transgenders? Then is it gay marriage or not? I'm trying to get the class to understand there's more to that 'hot button issue' that two men, or so you see men, marrying."

We talked and talked for three days and agreed it was traditional marriage.
Now I wanna know, what do you think about my odd experiment? We never talked on it again but I been getting people from the debate team trying to get me  :D but I declined. Track comes first.

Woah, that is a very interesting idea. I may have to bring this up in my government and psychology classes.

Thanks for brings educational points to your class. 

I think it really makes people question what qualifies as "gay marriage" and "traditional marriage." It blurs the lines, and shows how ridiculous bans on marriage are.

I think the conservative party would say they are deviants and the liberals would say equality under the law. 

Quote from: LatrellHK on March 30, 2015, 08:31:15 PM
So in my government class we debate frequently. Sometimes we have a day set aside for debating. Well last week we talked on and on about gay marriage and I said, without thinking, "Would it be considered gay marriage if a straight man marries a women who he didn't know was a transsexual?"

I then had to explain what it was and the class erupted. Half were okay with it, but the other half, in particular this one guy I'm not friendly with, said 'those people' are wrong and disgusting and all sorts of stuff and why would I bring that up. I said, in my anger and defense, "Because I am one of 'those people' *name*" The class got silent and all looked at me and after a while of questions and confusion I basically angrily outed myself. So then I went back to the question at hand when we settled down and again asked it. But everyone was pretty confused. So I took to the halls and even the streets and asked the question, "If a man were to marry a transsexual women, is it considered gay marriage or traditional marriage, even though she was once a male?"

I got mixed results. Some said it's gay marriage, even after I explained you couldn't tell they still said so. Others said it was somewhat traditional. Some said it's whatever, they married. Getting back to class I brought it up again. One girl asked why it matters if she was once a man, she's a women now. Shouldn't be an issue. I said, "But she is a man genetically." (not trying to bash on anyone in any way, I was doing this for a reason). After saying and being very persuasive against the scenario ladies case, the class basically then said it's a problem and, in a way, gay marriage.

"Now keep what yall said in mind. If she looks a women, sounds a women, acts, walks, talks, and basically is a women but is genetically male, it's gay marriage, right? Now what if a two men were to marry but the one guy was once a female? Then what? Is it traditional marriage then or gay marriage because of appearances?"

This basically brought the class to a standstill, which happened once before due to (taadaa) me, and for a while, nobody talked. Everyone sat either looking at me or in deep thought or texting. But nobody talked. The bell rang and our teacher said we'll discuss it tomorrow, which we did. Before that she asked me to stay and asked why I brought it up. My response was, to me, simple:

"Gay marriage is a problem to some but what if it's between transgenders? Then is it gay marriage or not? I'm trying to get the class to understand there's more to that 'hot button issue' that two men, or so you see men, marrying."

We talked and talked for three days and agreed it was traditional marriage.
Now I wanna know, what do you think about my odd experiment? We never talked on it again but I been getting people from the debate team trying to get me  :D but I declined. Track comes first.

What do I think? Track may come first ... but you really should give debate a try. You've got a sharp mind. Please continue to use it, because you'll go far.

As for the rest ... I think it was great. Though, I'm more impressed you where brave enough to do so quite publicly. Despite being open about being transgender myself, I know I'd be screaming for trouble to do something like that at my college.

In the Strictest terms, it would be considered a "gay" marriage, because a traditional marriage needs to have two partners capable of "vaginal conception", and since two genetic males cannot do this, nor can two genetic females, the marriage cannot be traditional. NOW, throw in your curveball of a two male marriage that is between a genetic male and a trans male (genetic female) and TECHNICALLY you still have a traditional marriage based on the fact that tansmen (if they go off HRT) can and do concieve naturally.

Personally, I think it's ALL marriage and people need to get their heads out of their arses. Good for you, Latrell, for pointing to a very good debate topic. I agree with Amy, don't let that dagger sharp mind go to waste.

Quote from: LoriLorenz on March 31, 2015, 12:11:16 AM
In the Strictest terms, it would be considered a "gay" marriage, because a traditional marriage needs to have two partners capable of "vaginal conception", and since two genetic males cannot do this, nor can two genetic females, the marriage cannot be traditional. NOW, throw in your curveball of a two male marriage that is between a genetic male and a trans male (genetic female) and TECHNICALLY you still have a traditional marriage based on the fact that tansmen (if they go off HRT) can and do concieve naturally.

Personally, I think it's ALL marriage and people need to get their heads out of their arses. Good for you, Latrell, for pointing to a very good debate topic. I agree with Amy, don't let that dagger sharp mind go to waste.

Disagree.  If one person is incapable of bearing a child, even though both are cis, then your explanation would make that a gay marriage.

Latrell,

Feel free to throw my situation into the mix. I'm legally married to a cisfemale ( for 34yrs). All of my legal documents list me as female. Except for my birth certificate, I have to divorce to change that as my marriage is then a same sex marriage which is illegal in Australia.

Oh and I do not need surgery to change my birth certificate.

This is called logical by someone?

Quote from: LordKAT on March 31, 2015, 01:27:10 AM
Disagree.  If one person is incapable of bearing a child, even though both are cis, then your explanation would make that a gay marriage.

You are correct, sir. I will amend my statement. A Traditional marriage (by definition of the Catholic Church, mind you) Is a marriage that is full, free, faithful, and fruitful.

Textbook Definitions:
Full: Commitment by both parties
Free: No barriers or lies, not had by force (shot gun wedding)
Faithful: No extra-marital activities
Fruitful: Capable of "Natural conception"

By that definition, even a marriage where one half of the couple is unable to play their part in conception is a non-traditional marriage and thus invalid marriage. A gay marriage misses on the fruitful aspect, as does the barren couple, a transgender marriage wavers depending on which way it's "swung".

Personally, even were I to remain as a female, I cannot enter into a fruitful marriage, by the constraints of this "traditional idea".

Thus, I think that - personally -  the idea of traditional marriage should be edited as such:
Elements 1, 2 and 3 speak of being in a marriage that is devoutly to that one other person that you love (sorry polygamists...)
Element 4, Fruitful, should be amended to mean that the couple in question are open to children in whatever form they are able to have them, be it adoption, naturally, in vitro fertilization, etc.

A great question, Latrell.

I think when you start legally defining people's gender, whether for the purpose of marriage or for any purpose you run into a minefield, because there are always going to be people who don't fit neatly in the two binary boxes.

So anyone who will say "a man is ____, and a woman is ____" will end up facing unanswerable questions.

Wow Latrell, awesome story and amazing job for standing up and discussing the issue so people can become educated.  It got them thinking and hopefully reflecting on themselves too.

I got married to my husband when I still presented male, and of course we sometimes faced same-sex discrimination in the USA (especially before it was recognized in most states).  It's funny that now that I'm female, even though I'm trans, we would face less discrimination in general (especially insane-Indiana).

The most extreme example I've heard of like this is that, in Iran, it's impossible to be gay.  So some people go through transition in order to be with the person they love.  Apparently trans is more accepted than same-sex relationships.  What a weird world.

Quote from: LatrellHK on March 30, 2015, 08:31:15 PM
So in my government class we debate frequently. Sometimes we have a day set aside for debating. Well last week we talked on and on about gay marriage and I said, without thinking, "Would it be considered gay marriage if a straight man marries a women who he didn't know was a transsexual?"

I then had to explain what it was and the class erupted. Half were okay with it, but the other half, in particular this one guy I'm not friendly with, said 'those people' are wrong and disgusting and all sorts of stuff and why would I bring that up. I said, in my anger and defense, "Because I am one of 'those people' *name*" The class got silent and all looked at me and after a while of questions and confusion I basically angrily outed myself. So then I went back to the question at hand when we settled down and again asked it. But everyone was pretty confused. So I took to the halls and even the streets and asked the question, "If a man were to marry a transsexual women, is it considered gay marriage or traditional marriage, even though she was once a male?"

I got mixed results. Some said it's gay marriage, even after I explained you couldn't tell they still said so. Others said it was somewhat traditional. Some said it's whatever, they married. Getting back to class I brought it up again. One girl asked why it matters if she was once a man, she's a women now. Shouldn't be an issue. I said, "But she is a man genetically." (not trying to bash on anyone in any way, I was doing this for a reason). After saying and being very persuasive against the scenario ladies case, the class basically then said it's a problem and, in a way, gay marriage.

"Now keep what yall said in mind. If she looks a women, sounds a women, acts, walks, talks, and basically is a women but is genetically male, it's gay marriage, right? Now what if a two men were to marry but the one guy was once a female? Then what? Is it traditional marriage then or gay marriage because of appearances?"

This basically brought the class to a standstill, which happened once before due to (taadaa) me, and for a while, nobody talked. Everyone sat either looking at me or in deep thought or texting. But nobody talked. The bell rang and our teacher said we'll discuss it tomorrow, which we did. Before that she asked me to stay and asked why I brought it up. My response was, to me, simple:

"Gay marriage is a problem to some but what if it's between transgenders? Then is it gay marriage or not? I'm trying to get the class to understand there's more to that 'hot button issue' that two men, or so you see men, marrying."

We talked and talked for three days and agreed it was traditional marriage.
Now I wanna know, what do you think about my odd experiment? We never talked on it again but I been getting people from the debate team trying to get me  :D but I declined. Track comes first.

Kudos to you for your debating skills as well as the courage to stand up to others and 'come out'.

I've noticed that the war against gay-marriage is trying to deny rights to couples that are a gay couple, but one of them is trans. I know a couple where one is MTF and one is a cis girl. The MTF girl intentionally didn't change her gender so they could get married. This legally meant they were male/female and yet they were turned away for trying to trick the system. Eventually they got what they needed because it became legal in the state of Alabama and she changed her gender status beforehand.

All I can say is AWESOME!  Also, good job calling out the jerk calling people he knows nothing about disgusting. I'm glad you shoved that in his face, so have an internet high five for being totally fantastic!! XD

I am a libertarian, which basically means, none of my business, live long and prosper, it's your life, live free and do what you need to do. What's in your pants is none of my business, and it shouldn't be the Government's. If only more people lived like this we'd have a lot less friction.