Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was recently clocked (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,186484.msg1663462.html#msg1663462) and it shook Evelyn's foundation a bit - like, mebe to the core. So I sit here thinking, how will I navigate tough real life tests such as a visit to the womens spa, a visit to victoria secret or heck even a date with an experienced and attractive hetero man? (not that I'm entertaining doing that btw, lez!)

If I'm to be assimilated in CIS society as a deep stealth trans woman then I know any odd looks, signs of puzzlement, sly glances, or whispering etc. would be a warning sign that I need to reassess 'stealth' and be more brutally honest with myself. I would also have to ask friends and family to be totally honest about a few things about my presentation.

So drop the intimate spaces altogether? How should I reconcile my 'femininity' and being "stealth" if I can't (edit) pass confidently in those places?

Perhaps start by not thinking that you're trespassing?

If it's brutal honesty that you want, you may have to face the fact that you'll never completely be able to go stealth. How comfortable you are with that thought in regard to sharing spaces traditionally reserved for women may help you arrive at the answers you seek.

If your blending very well (and from your posts I would say that you do) then confidence goes a long way. I've been to intimate female places (Women's locker rooms, dressing rooms, though never changed all the way in front of another woman other than my wife) and I haven't had any issues. Many times our minds think the worse. Someone is staring at you and you think your clocked, but your not. I once had one woman star at me in the women's restroom while I was washing my hands at the sink. She didn't clock me, but she was suspicious due to my height of 6'7". The only reason I knew for sure was that my wife an I caught up to her from behind as she was meeting another woman. I overheard her say:  "There was this extremely tall woman in the bathroom and I know it wasn't a guy because she didn't have an Adam's Apple. I've never seen a woman that tall before in person."

After some confidence you stop worrying about it so much. I've seen a lot of cis-women with more masculine features than myself. We are women period and there is nothing wrong with being in those spaces. (With some precautions and caveats for those of us pre SRS or those not wanting SRS.)

Well here's the thing. Can we define what stealth is? I've seen varying opinions of what this means and now even I'm confused. To me being "stealth" means passing as a woman unquestionably. To others, completely passing has different meanings.

For instance, take a look at the comments in this youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyeiOCGlw8

Just a few comments down

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi58.tinypic.com%2F2zjhuef.jpg&hash=6dbf1ade6b3803c953bf03cb9fefc7d1e7a49379)

Is this considered stealthy enough presentation to pass in intimate female spaces? Everyone says she's passing. Am I being too hard on myself and paranoid?

Don't drop life. Drop stealth instead.

Yeah I'm beginning to think stealth is unachievable for a large % of post puberty transitioners like myself. I started hormones LATE. So I need to be honest with myself. LoL.

So F'it. =\

Hi.

Don't try and fool people  simple as .

okay im known by many 1000s of people front line detail well known and meet many 100,s of people and talk to many 100,s and been seen by our people in New Zealand

okay ,.... I did not hide who I was  and  I was known over night through TVNZ , could not have done it better than that and had people come up to me and talk . that's being well known ,

Okay I know you wont wont  to do that , my profile,s state what I am who I am and all info needed so no one can ever say I lied to them so if I go on a date with some one they will know about my self and body  if they then wont a relastionship then theres no surprises ,

Why hide in the first place , granted im a female  and not a complete one my bodys different still female no matter what , people accept who I am and the way I am because I made sure everyone knew ,  why,   well no comebacks.... ever .....

if you have to hide who you are , then  look at are you sure of your self  confident in who you are  and selfworth of being you  have the confidence to stand in front of 1000,s of people and say with out a doubt  this..... IS.... who I am and the confidence to live being you .

I work with 100,s of people and at  very close quarters and get on well with people  and we talk about very personal details about our selfs you wont with men ,

in the real world of women  maybe I am and theres no doubt,s about it ,

Really....... this is about acceptance , and your not sure you will be .

Iv pretty much out lined what you ...can ...do  you give of your self you join groups  you work hard and help when asked and make sure you join in ,

AND...... no backing away and say oh I cant do this or that , it wont work you get stuck in and become a part of those people and get accepted ,

Okay ..... maybe not to day or next week or next month or maybe a year , what you have to do is be there at every meeting  ...get it .....its the  BEING....THERE....

get known get involved and have a fantastic time as well,

you wont to know something I never hid I was open and theres nothing others don't know about myself and im very involved  and well accepted .  why do you think I was told im on 3 commitees  because they wont me with them and to work with them .....okay..... im done , I wish you well ,

...noeleena...

stealth to me is not having food thrown at me while sitting in a restaurant

^^ Well. LoL! Steph I do think you're great yes I'd sit with you. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi58.tinypic.com%2F14cqkgi.jpg&hash=717aadcef3edd768fdb2fc00226eb5bf31a0fcf7)

Quote from: Echo Eve on April 20, 2015, 12:27:48 AM
Perhaps start by not thinking that you're trespassing?

This...

thanks we can share some figs at Starbucks

Well, I'm not against stealth because it's unacheivable. Fairly often it can be achieved.

I'm against it because it's like living with a skeleton in one's closet - all over again.

Quote from: noeleena on April 20, 2015, 12:54:45 AM
Hi.

Don't try and fool people  simple as .

okay im known by many 1000s of people front line detail well known and meet many 100,s of people and talk to many 100,s and been seen by our people in New Zealand

okay ,.... I did not hide who I was  and  I was known over night through TVNZ , could not have done it better than that and had people come up to me and talk . that's being well known ,

Okay I know you wont wont  to do that , my profile,s state what I am who I am and all info needed so no one can ever say I lied to them so if I go on a date with some one they will know about my self and body  if they then wont a relastionship then theres no surprises ,

Why hide in the first place , granted im a female  and not a complete one my bodys different still female no matter what , people accept who I am and the way I am because I made sure everyone knew ,  why,   well no comebacks.... ever .....

if you have to hide who you are , then  look at are you sure of your self  confident in who you are  and selfworth of being you  have the confidence to stand in front of 1000,s of people and say with out a doubt  this..... IS.... who I am and the confidence to live being you .

I work with 100,s of people and at  very close quarters and get on well with people  and we talk about very personal details about our selfs you wont with men ,

in the real world of women  maybe I am and theres no doubt,s about it ,

Really....... this is about acceptance , and your not sure you will be .

Iv pretty much out lined what you ...can ...do  you give of your self you join groups  you work hard and help when asked and make sure you join in ,

AND...... no backing away and say oh I cant do this or that , it wont work you get stuck in and become a part of those people and get accepted ,

Okay ..... maybe not to day or next week or next month or maybe a year , what you have to do is be there at every meeting  ...get it .....its the  BEING....THERE....

get known get involved and have a fantastic time as well,

you wont to know something I never hid I was open and theres nothing others don't know about myself and im very involved  and well accepted .  why do you think I was told im on 3 commitees  because they wont me with them and to work with them .....okay..... im done , I wish you well ,

...noeleena...

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... self affirmations of being female is a lot different from having your feminine being tested in spaces where exclusive woman's intimate privacy is enforced.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 12:35:05 AM
Well here's the thing. Can we define what stealth is? I've seen varying opinions of what this means and now even I'm confused. To me being "stealth" means passing as a woman unquestionably. To others, completely passing has different meanings.

For instance, take a look at the comments in this youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyeiOCGlw8

Just a few comments down

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi58.tinypic.com%2F2zjhuef.jpg&hash=6dbf1ade6b3803c953bf03cb9fefc7d1e7a49379)

Is this considered stealthy enough presentation to pass in intimate female spaces? Everyone says she's passing. Am I being too hard on myself and paranoid?

She blends in the video but there are things that I would clock her at because I am trans, but most people would not. For example her walk. Her was was a little on the masculine side, but there are cis-woman that walk like that. My cis-wife being one of them, has been questioned about her femininity about that. Not to say anyone has ever though she was trans, but certainly enough to question her femininity and assume she is slightly butch or a lesbian. This isn't so much a transgender woman issues and it is a women's issue in that a woman is suppose to walk or act a certain way in society. There is a fine line here on pressure of woman in general that is borderline sexists. If we are not careful we can step over that line trying to say who blends and who doesn't. I think blend is a better word than stealth there have been a lot women (cis and trans) that have had their womanhood questioned by society. I do think every transgender woman can reach that state to a good degree. Some of us in very little time on HRT and others takes years.

^^^ To me it's the forced masculine walk, height, facial features, clothes that seems way out of place and the hulking musculature. But that's just Evelyn's opinion...

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 19, 2015, 11:59:55 PM
I was recently clocked (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,186484.msg1663462.html#msg1663462) and it shook Evelyn's foundation a bit - like, mebe to the core. So I sit here thinking, how will I navigate real life tough tests such as a visit to the womens spa, a visit to victoria secret or heck even a date with an experienced and attractive hetero man? (not that I'm entertaining doing that btw, lez!)

If I'm to be assimilated in CIS society as a deep stealth trans woman then I know any odd looks, signs of puzzlement, sly glances, or whispering etc. would be a warning sign that I need to reassess 'stealth' and be more brutally honest with myself. I would also have to ask friends and family to be totally honest about a few things about my presentation.

Stealth is blending in and hiding your past. It's not for me.

QuoteSo drop the intimate spaces altogether? How should I reconcile my 'femininity' and being "stealth" if I can't tresspass confidently in those places?

If you feel you are trespassing, there's the issue. I'm a woman and therefore belong in those spaces. I'm not trespassing, I'm just a woman going about her business. Maybe have a look at why you feel like a trespasser.

Yeah mebe tresspass wasn't a good word to kick off the topic. :D I remember it being used fondly in the movie An Affair To Remember when Terry McKay said "Thank you for letting me tresspass..." to the little grandmother speaking of her french garden villa.

Edited it

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 01:16:57 AM
To me it's the forced masculine walk, facial features and the hulking musculature. But that's just Evelyn's opinion...

I agree and most of that could be taken care of by adjusting a few things. Not wearing such high heels to make walking seem less forced. A different style dress to de-emphasize shoulders, etc. Also many of those things get better over time and practice. Also dressing too feminine can put a larger bullseye on masculine features. If she dressed more like other women her age in the mall she would blend a lot better.

Being stealth does not necessarily mean that you will be happier.
In my case, honesty always gives me more freedom.
Yes. I always use women's public bathroom, but this does not mean that I am in stealth. Just for convenience.
I usually interact with my close friends, colleagues and students, all of whom know very well who I am.
I avoid any approach by strangers in the street. I do not reply to any comment from them.

barbie~~

Quote from: barbie on April 20, 2015, 01:32:35 AM
Being stealth does not necessarily mean that you will be happier.

In my case, honesty always gives me more freedom.

Contextually, how are you using the word "honesty", what are you referring to?

I feel that being stealth is the best option for some. If one can actually do so it can be preferred because being trans most likely won't become public knowledge and attacks by violent trasphopes will most assuredly not occur. It's really sad for the transwomen that can't really go stealth because of broad male features and/or not possessing natural feminine demeanor. The thing is though one should not worry about being "clocked" so much as for all the "clocking" people know the person may just have pronounced slightly more masculine features than other women. This holds true for some cisfemales as well; so it can be perceived as just that(you don't physically fit the general norm.)

In my experience and a little from what I read, proper body language, voice, confidence and behavior in general goes just as far if not further than appearance alone.

Quote from: Echo Eve on April 20, 2015, 01:55:49 AM

Contextually, how are you using the word "honesty", what are you referring to?

Well, a tricky question.

I do not intentionally hide anything regarding my gender, and I do not have any fear of revealing my identity to the public. For example, I show my ID to the security persons while wearing heels and other stuffs. I show my passport in the immigration desk of any international airport while wearing skirt. Some people ask me whether I am a man or a woman, and I reply that I am biologically male, but I am a kind of transgender, skewed to woman. I am an educator, and I do wear heels and skirts while teaching class or presiding a meeting. Sometimes I meet people with my wife and kids. In Facebook, anybody can see my various photos and videos of myself and my family everyday. I share my miniskirts with my little daughter who loves to touch and try every fashion and makeup item I have purchased.

These would be enough as examples? I am not quite sure.

barbie~~

I have to admit, when I first read the title of this thread, the picture which appeared in my mind instantly was totally different from what has been discussed so far.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on April 20, 2015, 02:22:52 AM
I have to admit, when I first read the title of this thread, the picture which appeared in my mind instantly was totally different from what has been discussed so far.

*laughs involuntarily like Beavis & Butthead*

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 01:16:57 AM
^^^ To me it's the forced masculine walk, height, facial features, clothes that seems way out of place and the hulking musculature. But that's just Evelyn's opinion...

I'll be brutally honest, I don't think she passes at all, or even blends. It sounds harsh but she has made a choice to wear clothes that make her stand out, which means she doesn't blend. After that her height and shape stop her passing at a distance, as does her walk, and then once she gets close, her face. It's just the way I see it and I'm aware that I am more likely to pick up on those things but I think it's misleading of people to say that she passes.

Having seen your pics though Evelyn, you do. Obviously I haven't met you in the flesh but you look great and your a million miles away from the lady in the video. You do have a right to be in the spaces you talk about and I understand why you would be nervous but perhaps it's something that will pass in time. Stealth is a very tricky thing because at the end of the day people like us have been through a male puberty, so with me I know that things like my feet don't look right etc. but I think those details would only stand out to those that are in close regular contact with you.

Quote from: Squircle on April 20, 2015, 03:49:14 AM
I'll be brutally honest, I don't think she passes at all, or even blends. It sounds harsh but she has made a choice to wear clothes that make her stand out, which means she doesn't blend. After that her height and shape stop her passing at a distance, as does her walk, and then once she gets close, her face. It's just the way I see it and I'm aware that I am more likely to pick up on those things but I think it's misleading of people to say that she passes.

Having seen your pics though Evelyn, you do. Obviously I haven't met you in the flesh but you look great and your a million miles away from the lady in the video. You do have a right to be in the spaces you talk about and I understand why you would be nervous but perhaps it's something that will pass in time. Stealth is a very tricky thing because at the end of the day people like us have been through a male puberty, so with me I know that things like my feet don't look right etc. but I think those details would only stand out to those that are in close regular contact with you.

I don't think calling it out sounds harsh at all... the insipid supportive comments on that youtube video page is telling. But you know the deal. Oh and thanks!

"Stealth" is going about your daily life without people knowing you're trans. "Deep stealth" is completely hiding your past.

Deep stealth is a difficult balancing act from what I gather, plain stealth is not.

A few interesting presentation studies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKybWHB->-bleeped-<-I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSrqOanZvlI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynzvgw-nQUo

  I feel the word "trespassing" is a completely accurate way of describing how cis women often feel.  Never did I sense this so strongly as when I was still presenting as a guy while trying to be friends with women on equal footing with any of their other close cis girlfriends.  There was always a cutoff point where I would be excluded from certain things because they were off-limits.

  During my transition I've been extremely careful about assessing businesses to determine whether they are 'women-only spaces'.  Certainly there are spas and hair salons and the like where transwomen and men are absolutely not welcome.  It is most definitely viewed as trespassing into their space or preventing them from relaxing as they only could in a fully-female social group.

  I've being struggling with this issue lately now that I'm about to go full-time.  It's reared it's ugly head now that I'm thinking about trying to join a womens' ice hockey team.  (Not necessarily serious league play.)  One of the health professionals I deal with regularly plays on a team and she polled her teammates for me to get some sense of how they felt about it, particularly in terms of pre/non-op transwomen.  While they were actually all open to it I still have trouble with the idea of entering their changeroom, especially if I signed up alone and were coming into one as a stranger.  I honestly don't feel I could bring myself to walk through that door for the first time (unless I already knew someone there who could 'set the stage' first).  It really doesn't matter how I feel about it - it's entirely how they feel about it.  I feel that I must respect their environment because there is no way I could possibly be stealth in that situation.  No matter how much effort I put into passing there is a point where the illusion will break down and this is where cis women start instinctively acting to exclude.  I'm told there was a woman who transitioned to male and was forced to leave the league.  Given that, I hardly expect to be treated as a full equal myself.

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "tested"... but for the most part I agree that it's about confidence. I was recently in the bathroom with someone who would have passed perfectly in the men's room and nobody batted an eye. (I'm assuming butch cis woman because statistically that's the most likely when I was a few miles out from "the lesbian capital of the US," but either way.) If you act like you belong there, with that unquestioning confidence that cis women have in their own womanhood, and you are able to blend in fine with the general population - a big if, but it seems to be the case for you - then 99.99% of the time you won't have an issue. And that last 0.001% you react like a cis woman would and tell 'em to ->-bleeped-<- off. ;)

I'm post-op now and most people don't realize that the average person can't clock that (in other words, they think a neovagina will look like some frankenpussy that they can easily ID as unnatural), so these days I always have the option of dropping my pants. But I've walked the walk; I've not only been in what you're calling "intimate" spaces consistently and done fine, but I had some trials by fire. I once took a shower in a gym locker room with no shower curtains or anything, surrounded by other women, and another time had a bra fitting done, both while still pre-op. It was nerve-wracking as hell, but nobody questioned me at all.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 12:35:05 AM
Well here's the thing. Can we define what stealth is? I've seen varying opinions of what this means and now even I'm confused. To me being "stealth" means passing as a woman unquestionably. To others, completely passing has different meanings.

For instance, take a look at the comments in this youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyeiOCGlw8

Just a few comments down

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi58.tinypic.com%2F2zjhuef.jpg&hash=6dbf1ade6b3803c953bf03cb9fefc7d1e7a49379)

Is this considered stealthy enough presentation to pass in intimate female spaces? Everyone says she's passing. Am I being too hard on myself and paranoid?

Definitely not blending, let alone stealth; her walk, posture, body frame, and face, did not say cis.

Before transitioning, I always felt awkward in the female spaces such as clothing rooms, woman's department (bra/underware/etc), make up, etc..

Now fast forward to being full time, I do not feel awkward in these spaces any more.  I feel like I have gained membership to this 'club' and now I can go to these places.  It's totally awesome. 

However, I am beginning to get uncomfortable in men spaces.  Such as sporting good areas where there are bunch of men, my fiance' asked me to pick up beer on the way home other day at this particular beer shop, and was just full of men no women... and of course they all gawking at me... and it's like, wow... this is a blast from the past.. feeling like I do not fit in these areas any longer.

I like to know if anyone has had similar experience.

BTW my advice is -- do not look nervous, look natural.. do NOT try to act like a woman because you'll fail.. just be yourself, act natural... the woman moves will come naturally... if you try too hard you'll stand out like a squeaky wheel. 

Lexi

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 12:35:05 AM
Well here's the thing. Can we define what stealth is? I've seen varying opinions of what this means and now even I'm confused. To me being "stealth" means passing as a woman unquestionably. To others, completely passing has different meanings.

For instance, take a look at the comments in this youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyeiOCGlw8

Just a few comments down

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi58.tinypic.com%2F2zjhuef.jpg&hash=6dbf1ade6b3803c953bf03cb9fefc7d1e7a49379)

Is this considered stealthy enough presentation to pass in intimate female spaces? Everyone says she's passing. Am I being too hard on myself and paranoid?

She really looks "off" in that video. The gait is definitely male, and the way her arms are positioned is a big tip off. It would definitely cause some people to dig deeper.

The dress and heels aren't really helping either. 

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 19, 2015, 11:59:55 PM
I was recently clocked (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,186484.msg1663462.html#msg1663462) and it shook Evelyn's foundation a bit - like, mebe to the core. So I sit here thinking, how will I navigate tough real life tests such as a visit to the womens spa, a visit to victoria secret or heck even a date with an experienced and attractive hetero man? (not that I'm entertaining doing that btw, lez!)

I had no idea VS was an intimate space? To me it's a store where I go to buy stuff...

Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 20, 2015, 11:49:14 AM
................................ I once took a shower in a gym locker room with no shower curtains or anything, surrounded by other women, and another time had a bra fitting done, both while still pre-op. It was nerve-wracking as hell, but nobody questioned me at all.

How did you manage that?

Quote from: kittenpower on April 20, 2015, 12:04:24 PM
Definitely not blending, let alone stealth; her walk, posture, body frame, and face, did not say cis.

Others would argue otherwise "complete pass!" "classy lady!" maybe we shouldn't hurt their feelings I had to remind myself having just awoken with clearer thinking that this is a support forum and we are all sisters here after all, singing kumbaya.

So in light of this maybe I'm more inclined to disagree. She's beautiful, and definite pass!

Quote from: iKate on April 20, 2015, 12:26:24 PM
I had no idea VS was an intimate space? To me it's a store where I go to buy stuff...

Intimate in the sense of getting fitted for lingerie with assistance in view of other women half nude trying on their own things. Stuff like that. I'm embarrassed to say that I've never been in the fitting area of VS so maybe my fears are unjustified. But that's what they do there, yes?

Here's an interesting presentation example

I notice they are being read when on the escalator. A few very apparent things caught my eye right at the outset. But I have no idea what their faces look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7LMK4N_vhA

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 01:28:52 PM
Intimate in the sense of getting fitted for lingerie with assistance in view of other women half nude trying on their own things. Stuff like that. I'm embarrassed to say that I've never been in the fitting area of VS so maybe my fears are unjustified. But that's what they do there, yes?

Ahaaa. Okay.

Yeah, I don't have other people fit me, I'm pre-op. Maybe I'll go for a bra fitting sooner or later.

Somehow I thought the fitting rooms were private. I used them (female ones) at department stores without issue, even with my obviously male voice. They don't really say anything, they know I'm trans most likely.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 02:05:12 PM
Here's an interesting presentation example

I notice they are being read when on the escalator. A few very apparent things caught my eye right at the outset. But I have no idea what their faces look like.

I noticed several things immediately too.

Are these people MTF or simply crossdressers? It almost looks like they are CDers experimenting with presentation in public.

Quote from: iKate on April 20, 2015, 02:19:47 PM
I noticed several things immediately too.

Are these people MTF or simply crossdressers? It almost looks like they are CDers experimenting with presentation in public.

Some of them have 'transgender' tags on their videos.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 02:25:57 PM
Some of them have 'transgender' tags on their videos.

I ask because the heels and dress is not normally how people would dress everyday and that in itself draws attention.

But but but ... "It's all about confidence!" ;)

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 02:25:57 PM
Some of them have 'transgender' tags on their videos.

They are all transgender, but there is difference and it is quite subtle.

And no, it is not only about confidence - doing stupid things with an utmost conviction would be still doing... stupid... things...

^^ Concurred. Some are just oblivious, ya know? The video seems to be a pervasive representative example of the blind leading the blind.

Evelyn, I am very happy to see that You have come back and are posting again. You have nice sense of irony, which is sometimes borderline sarcastic :) (or was it the other way around?;)

I like a little sarcasm, it wakes up the brain cells. ;D

But on a serious note, I think studying other T women's presentation is important so we can glean what to do, and what NOT to do.

So far from almost everything I've seen on the tube's, I'm not impressed. It's starkly apparent that our community has a long way to go in its struggles and knowledge sharing is vital.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 03:09:11 PM
I like a little sarcasm, it wakes up the brain cells. ;D

But on a serious note, I think studying other T women's presentation is important so we can glean what to do, and what NOT to do.

So far from almost everything I've seen on the tube's, I'm not impressed. It's starkly apparent that our community has a long way to go in its struggles and knowledge sharing is vital.

There are also those that have no issues with presentation and have simply wandered off and gotten a life. They feel no need to make videos and post them online. I'm too busy actually living my life for that. But then, I'd never watch such videos.

Also, some of the worst advice I've been given came from other trans people. "You gotta do this.. You gotta do that.." or "You'll need to have X, Y and Z procedures on your face.." As well intentioned as those advice givers may have been, they were way off base. And, frankly, some of them were quite rude about it.

And yes, confidence does help.. If you have 80-90% of the package together, having confidence in who and what you are will carry you the rest of the way. This isn't just my opinion, but that of quite a few women I know - the ones who are too busy actually living life to make videos.

And don't think to judge me by my avatar pic, it's ancient. And I can't be bothered updating it.

^^ Well there you go. A lot of this "advice" is never challenged and ripped apart. Doesn't fall in line with the spirit of "support".

As for that video, the thing is, look at what everyone around her is wearing. No other woman who crossed the camera field is anywhere NEAR that dressed up for the mall - no fancy dresses, no bright red, no super high spiked heels. The real problem is that even as a cis woman she wouldn't blend in; if she's dressed to attract attention, that by definition means she's standing out. And once people are looking...

Mac1 : I was scared out of my mind (it was a state of emergency in the area and this high school gym was the only place I'd been able to shower for a week, or I wouldn't have risked it), but I kept myself half-turned from the open doorway and was incredibly careful not to let anything show. Since I'm reasonably feminine in body shape otherwise, that sufficed. There were other women there who were shy about their bodies, and even some complaining about how dreadful the whole setup was, so it didn't seem odd to be turning my back to the room, etc. In fact, in most locker rooms there's a few cis women who want to change in the stalls/behind a towel/cautiously. It was the only time I ever wished I knew how to tuck, though!

Evelyn : That's some of the things you can do in fitting rooms, but sometimes women just take stuff in there to try on in private, too. :) You don't *have* to let other people see you half-dressed unless you really want to, and it'd be considered weird to routinely do that with strangers [who were not the salespeople, and even they do bra fittings by request only].

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 03:30:20 PM
^^ Well there you go. A lot of this "advice" is never challenged and ripped apart. Doesn't fall in line with the spirit of "support".

I tried to challenge it and gave up when I was shouted down by the "majority". At which point I just wandered away and became the cynical advice giver I am today.

I take everyone's advice with a grain of salt. I mostly experiment and find stuff on my own. I don't watch how my (cis) wife does things either, she's not such a good example of how I'd like to be.

Some of it is natural too. The walk I've found easy to do and my arms have the feminine carry angle. Plus I don't walk around like hulk like these women are doing to some degree.

Wow!!!!! Why does this site or my pc not posting what I write... it was 2 paragraphs long grrrr!! In my exp even when I looked like a andro-male females accepted me into their spaces. I have always been effeminate by nature(love looking back at my memories of people saying "why do you behave and walk like a girl, you ->-bleeped-<-!) comments it was reaffirming of myself somehow.. lol. Ciswomen would talk to me about relationship both romantic and family/friends problems, emotional struggles they are having, and even beauty etc. I thought it was odd at first considering that does not usually happen but got used to it fast and love it. This could be a matter of the fact that I was more acquainted with them and they were not strangers, soooo who knows I guess.

Lol! Barging in a locker room or spa or something with strangers would probably tell a different tale!

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 20, 2015, 03:44:57 PM
I tried to challenge it and gave up when I was shouted down by the "majority". At which point I just wandered away and became the cynical advice giver I am today.

I nudge, but I get sent on vacation. So these days I make a splash and disappear. It's a big headache and emotionally exhausting to try get involved so why subject myself.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 04:07:07 PM
I nudge, but I get sent on vacation. So these days I make a splash and disappear. It's a big headache and emotionally exhausting to try get involved so why subject myself.

When people who live on the other side of the world tell me that my life experiences are a lie because they don't fit in to their tiny boxes, I walked away.

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 20, 2015, 04:22:01 PM
When people who live on the other side of the world tell me that my life experiences are a lie because they don't fit in to their tiny boxes, I walked away.

Well, You know that saying about dogs and caravan, don't You? I am kinda sure, that they still keep barking, but You have moved on quite a fair share :).

Regarding all the videos - if these girls are CD/TV, that's a different thing to being TS, and it's best not to compare them with TS standards.

You most likely didn't get clocked. Because when you actually get clocked, you know about it, because the cis ->-bleeped-<-s will make sure you do. If you're lucky it'll be questions - if you're really lucky they'll be respectful - if you're not... well best not to think about it. Depending on your presentation you may very well be getting read as transmasculine female, that happens to me a lot, and it's ->-bleeped-<-en annoying.

Mostly when you get 'clocked' what has really happened is someone has noticed you and your mind has jumped to the worst possible conclusion, especially if you are nervous about being in that space to start with.

NE way I guess what's the point of this thread?

I would say that if you are being read, accruing any suspicion, then you'll have a hard time making it in places where women who self-select by CIS passing privilege, can meet and feel secure and openly intimate with each other. For a transwoman it's a unyielding test of her stealthyness.

Many pay a lot of lip service to being able to meet this challenge, but ultimately fail when called on it and actually tested.

Open discussions about these topics are always useful. But I never see any. I guess it's just too triggering and nitty gritty for the community's comfort.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on April 20, 2015, 04:43:20 PM
You most likely didn't get clocked. Because when you actually get clocked, you know about it, because the cis ->-bleeped-<-s will make sure you do. If you're lucky it'll be questions - if you're really lucky they'll be respectful - if you're not... well best not to think about it. Depending on your presentation you may very well be getting read as transmasculine female, that happens to me a lot, and it's ->-bleeped-<-en annoying.

Mostly when you get 'clocked' what has really happened is someone has noticed you and your mind has jumped to the worst possible conclusion, especially if you are nervous about being in that space to start with.

^^ I'm sorry but this is the kind of interpretation of the circumstantial facts and actions (as one would like them to appear rather than as they really are) that goes on and on and on around here.

I was clocked. Why try to dress it up or downplay it?

Why does it matter if you were clocked and nothing really negative happened from it?   Did it bruise your ego?


One thing I know is that you can't let little things get you and you definitely shouldn't try to read too much into every off glance you might get from someone, you have no idea what they are thinking.

Well it did bruise my ego :D

Because I hold myself to a realistic standard of what passing *really* means. So I know I need to work on a few things if I'm to self proclaim being able to pull off any sort stealthyness in my presentation.

I'm not interested in being accepted as trans*. I'm interested in being accepted unquestionably (at least on the outside) as a woman.

Quote from: marsh monster on April 20, 2015, 05:05:18 PM
One thing I know is that you can't let little things get you and you definitely shouldn't try to read too much into every off glance you might get from someone, you have no idea what they are thinking.

^^^ BTW - I think being able to read people in general is an important skill set to have if you are going to attempt at winning at their own game...  ;)

'Passing' or 'not being clocked' is not a game to be won.

See, everybody has a brain in their head, and a degree of autonomy in what they think and perceive.

We cannot control what another person thinks and sees. So, to invest in doing so is sheer folly.

We *can* do something about how we feel within ourselves, and get on with life.

Work toward reconciling the fact that you will be clocked, from time to time. It is part of our life as trans-people, and something we cannot run from.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 05:11:37 PM
I'm not interested in being accepted as trans*. I'm interested in being accepted unquestionably (at least on the outside) as a woman.

Are you saving for surgeries? Reaching "unquestionably" status might be a little expensive...

The way I survived the critical female eye in intimate female spaces was to take it very slowly and figure out where my boundaries are.

I know that people's opinions differ on this subject but for me blending in was extremely important. That meant dressing age and situation appropriate, studying and learning female mannerisms and customs, learning how to walk, move, and sit like a female, and i worked on my voice. All of the above is still going on and probably will be for the rest of my life although I know that some things can't be eradicated no matter how much I try.

When I test a boundary it's really a test of how well I've learned this topic. When i am out of my element which comes either by by own gut feel or by women making me nervous I retreat until I have learned enough to feel confident then it's back in i go.

I am pre-op so some spaces remain off limits to me. Women are accepting of me but flashing junk is a definite no no in their intimate spaces.

Quote from: mmmmm on April 20, 2015, 05:27:37 PM
Are you saving for surgeries? Reaching "unquestionably" status might be a little expensive...

^^ Exactly.

So I've mostly reached my limits, although I still have another year to go with subtle hormonal improvements. Will I pass unquestionably when tested? Probably not. Pass good enough for casual interactions and casual womens spaces? Probably.

Have I met my goals? I'm happy.

Actually this is all reminiscent of a recent androgynouspainter thread about passing. :D

We all have our insecurities no matter who we are.

But face them realistically.

Quote from: Eva Marie on April 20, 2015, 05:28:49 PM
The way I survived the critical female eye in intimate female spaces was to take it very slowly and figure out where my boundaries are.

I know that people's opinions differ on this subject but for me blending in was extremely important. That meant dressing age and situation appropriate, studying and learning female mannerisms and customs, learning how to walk, move, and sit like a female, and i worked on my voice. All of the above is still going on and probably will be for the rest of my life although I know that some things can't be eradicated no matter how much I try.

When I test a boundary it's really a test of how well I've learned this topic. When i am out of my element which comes either by by own gut feel or by women making me nervous I retreat until I have learned enough to feel confident then it's back in i go.

I am pre-op so some spaces remain off limits to me. Women are accepting of me but flashing junk is a definite no no in their intimate spaces.

^^ Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Good thinking.

(And with that take home message I'm settling out of this thread.)

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 03:09:11 PM
I think studying other T women's presentation is important so we can glean what to do, and what NOT to do.

So far from almost everything I've seen on the tube's, I'm not impressed. It's starkly apparent that our community has a long way to go in its struggles and knowledge sharing is vital.

I'm late to the discussion, but I'll add something to this point.  Most of the transwomen I know fit into this barely passing category...and they seem to have just given up and decided that passing is unnecessary.  And I couldn't disagree more.

These women have all the confidence (cough, cough) in the world.  But their attitude about blending in is very different from mine.  There's a difference between coming to acceptance of the fact that we are transwomen and being ok with being viewed as transwomen.  I haven't suffered my whole life just to be viewed as trans.

I suppose the difference then comes down to brutal honesty, realistic assessment (of self and the world around me), and putting in the long difficult work of unlearning a lifetime of habits we formed to try to blend in as guys.  Don't get me wrong...I'm enjoying this process.  But it's not easy.

Quote from: SarahBoo on April 20, 2015, 05:26:20 PM
'Passing' or 'not being clocked' is not a game to be won.

Sure it is, if you have your in safety in mind...

Quote from: Eva Marie on April 20, 2015, 05:28:49 PM
The way I survived the critical female eye in intimate female spaces was to take it very slowly and figure out where my boundaries are.

I know that people's opinions differ on this subject but for me blending in was extremely important. That meant dressing age and situation appropriate, studying and learning female mannerisms and customs, learning how to walk, move, and sit like a female, and i worked on my voice. All of the above is still going on and probably will be for the rest of my life although I know that some things can't be eradicated no matter how much I try.

When I test a boundary it's really a test of how well I've learned this topic. When i am out of my element which comes either by by own gut feel or by women making me nervous I retreat until I have learned enough to feel confident then it's back in i go.

I am pre-op so some spaces remain off limits to me. Women are accepting of me but flashing junk is a definite no no in their intimate spaces.

^^ Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Good thinking.

(And with that take home message I'm settling out of this thread.)

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 20, 2015, 05:58:32 PM
Sure it is, if you have your in safety in mind...

Being safe is about one's lifestyle, who they affiliate with, and how they go about things.

'Passing' doesn't contribute much to how safe one is, in the big scheme of things.

Quote from: SarahBoo on April 20, 2015, 06:12:50 PM
Being safe is about one's lifestyle, who they affiliate with, and how they go about things.

'Passing' doesn't contribute much to how safe one is, in the big scheme of things.

On the contrary. A woman might get a few cat calls, a "tr***" might get the bleep kicked out of her.

My close friends and colleagues do praise my feminine beauty when I deserve it, even though all of them know my biological sex. They understand that I have to use women's bathroom.

My close female friends give me a lot of advice on fashion and makeup, and I learn from them. Sometimes they praise my fashion sense, and sometimes give me a gift of fragrance or fishnet stockings. Oh. Also male friends infrequently give me some small gifts, too.

I just try to look beautiful and express my femininity, in which passing or being clocked on are virtually irrelevant.

barbie~~

Quote from: iKate on April 20, 2015, 07:30:31 PM
On the contrary. A woman might get a few cat calls, a "tr***" might get the bleep kicked out of her.

I live in one of the roughest areas in Perth, Western Australia (moving soon, thankfully!), and have never been threatened. Not once.

It is because I play it safe. I am always aware of my surroundings. I move through the rough areas demurely and with my head up. I do not invite trouble.

I am respectful toward others, and they are respectful toward me. If people ask me questions I answer. If people shout something out, so what? I do not respond with hostility - doing so would invite hostility.

Now, if I went out at night alone, got drinking, and *put myself in a vulnerable position*, things could be different.

Attitude is everything. Stealth would achieve nothing if my attitude was not positive, as I would still get clocked, and still have those interactions.

Quote from: SarahBoo on April 20, 2015, 09:34:35 PM
I live in one of the roughest areas in Perth, Western Australia (moving soon, thankfully!), and have never been threatened. Not once.

It is because I play it safe. I am always aware of my surroundings. I move through the rough areas demurely and with my head up. I do not invite trouble.

I am respectful toward others, and they are respectful toward me. If people ask me questions I answer. If people shout something out, so what? I do not respond with hostility - doing so would invite hostility.

Now, if I went out at night alone, got drinking, and *put myself in a vulnerable position*, things could be different.

Attitude is everything. Stealth would achieve nothing if my attitude was not positive, as I would still get clocked, and still have those interactions.

I don't know the culture in aus but in the USA violence against trans women is pretty real. This is one big reason for stealth.

Quote from: iKate on April 20, 2015, 09:36:09 PM
I don't know the culture in aus but in the USA violence against trans women is pretty real. This is one big reason for stealth.

I hear you there, I have been told stories about some places in the US. The sort of places where you cannot even be openly gay.

Still, my point is the same. Attitude is a big part of how our interactions turn out.

For example, say somebody calls me a '->-bleeped-<-', or publicly misgenders me for fun. Do I get offended and demand an apology? No.

I take it on the chin and respond with kindness. Pretty soon people realise they are dealing with someone tough, and so damned *nice*, that they end up feeling *bad* about what they said!

Quote from: SarahBoo on April 20, 2015, 09:34:35 PM
I live in one of the roughest areas in Perth, Western Australia (moving soon, thankfully!), and have never been threatened. Not once.

It is because I play it safe. I am always aware of my surroundings. I move through the rough areas demurely and with my head up. I do not invite trouble.

I am respectful toward others, and they are respectful toward me. If people ask me questions I answer. If people shout something out, so what? I do not respond with hostility - doing so would invite hostility.

Now, if I went out at night alone, got drinking, and *put myself in a vulnerable position*, things could be different.

Attitude is everything. Stealth would achieve nothing if my attitude was not positive, as I would still get clocked, and still have those interactions.

I hung out in some of the 'rougher' parts of Adelaide and never had any serious issue - in fact I found I was welcomed in to peoples homes, mostly because I was honest and unafraid of who I was. I was also befriended by the 'aunties' which came in handy the few times I did have trouble.. Like the time 2 white guys in their late teens decided to hassle me in the street - the aboriginal guy with them smacked them both in the head and said "You can't say that to her, that aint right."

Even with that, there are some places I just wouldn't go alone - one of which is/was the major 'nightclub' street.. Still feeling my way around Melbourne, but haven't hit any real issues so far.

Passing is important to me, for the simple reason that I find life tough enough without dealing with stares and comments behind my back. I don't have the confidence or self esteem of some of you, and incidents that someone else might be able to deal with and brush off would leave me shaken for weeks. It's one of the reasons I have a bit of an issue with the seemingly cure all solution of more confidence; I can't just decide to 'own it'. Some days I feel good, others I want to stay in and see no one. I met a non passing trans woman once who lives in a less accepting town than I do; she was minding her own business, not rising to taunts, and she had all of the teeth kicked out of her head.

Thankfully I get by ok, but I put work into it, I've spent a lot of time on my voice and I learn as much as I can, whenever I can. Just because I don't want to/don't have the strength to live my life as visibly trans IT doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me or that I need to change my thinking. I know me better than anyone so I'll do what I need to to be happy.

With changing rooms in gyms, for me they are off limits until after surgery. That's just my personal view on it, I feel like I'd be crossing a line going into an environment like that with a penis. I don't think any amount of confidence or 'feminine energy' is going to make the situation better when a woman sees male genitalia whilst she's getting changed.

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 21, 2015, 01:08:46 AM
I hung out in some of the 'rougher' parts of Adelaide and never had any serious issue - in fact I found I was welcomed in to peoples homes, mostly because I was honest and unafraid of who I was. I was also befriended by the 'aunties' which came in handy the few times I did have trouble.. Like the time 2 white guys in their late teens decided to hassle me in the street - the aboriginal guy with them smacked them both in the head and said "You can't say that to her, that aint right."

That has been my life in Mirrabooka and the surrounding suburbs :~)

Going out at night in dangerous areas, as you say, is a big no-no. Trans or not!

I've met cis women that have told me that they get "clocked" by people. It sounds like this was a pretty big shock to you, so probably an isolated incident, like it is for those cis women. If there's nothing you can fix to make it not happen again, there's no use dwelling on it in my opinion.

Quote from: Emileeeee on April 21, 2015, 08:27:35 AM
I've met cis women that have told me that they get "clocked" by people. It sounds like this was a pretty big shock to you, so probably an isolated incident, like it is for those cis women. If there's nothing you can fix to make it not happen again, there's no use dwelling on it in my opinion.

Whenever someone uses a CIS person as an example to reflect our own trials and tribulations I can't help but wonder what said CIS person actually looks like. :D

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 21, 2015, 09:35:29 AM
Whenever someone uses a CIS person as an example to reflect our own trials and tribulations I can't help but wonder what said CIS person actually looks like. :D

Like a woman, Evelyn, like a woman. I used to know a cis woman who was large, stocky and had a deep voice. Didn't matter, no one doubted her. I used to say I'd rather look like the world's ugliest woman than its handsomest man. Maybe time to reuse that sig.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 21, 2015, 09:35:38 AM
^^^ Sounds like you're trying to minimize the totality of all those subtler incidents of clocking, like putting them in bigger buckets so it's easier to deal with and isn't as painful... any reason why?

I was clocked. Fair and square.

Anyway look I've said I'm settling out of this thread. I'm squared with the topic.

Some one staring at you and you thinking that you've been 'clocked' is not actually being clocked. I'm not trying to minimise the impact of subtle incidents clocking, because again, being publicly viewed as trans is NOT a subtle experience.

Locked.