Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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PART ONE of these posts discuss whether the term "Transsexual" is accurate for us.
PART TWO of these posts got interesting in that we discuss whether we're "brain damaged" or "changed" and what the causes might be.
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Websters' definition of "trans" - "Across...to the other side"

Okay, I know.  Labels are stupid.  But that aside, as a writer, I've always had a strong interest in words.  I've heard many post ops say, "I'm not "trans" anything," and, I admit, I've felt that way most times.  It's a weird position we're put in because some doc decades ago decided to call us "transsexuals."  Maybe we continue with it because we feel a strong kinship to those embarking on the same journey.  Many or most of us solve the problem by referring society to what's neatly typed out on our new driver's licences:  Female or Male.  Or, we call ourselves "T Women" and "T Men."  The adherence to the label "transsexual" when we're past that point seems to be unique in societal labels: 

- A poor man who becomes rich is not referred to as a transrich. 
- A pauper in England who becomes a nobleman is not a transcaste.
- A slave who was freed in the Civil War didn't define himself as a transfree. 

Yet we still adhere to the chains of our past like some kind of gender war veterans.  I'd hate to think that it is simply a lack of imagination that causes us to accept the "trans" label.  Presuming some of us WANT to honor our past, by labeling ourselves (with pride) as something more than just men and women, I wonder if we can come up with something that emphasizes our ARRIVAL rather than the trip there. 

Things like, PT Woman or PT Man (Post Trans)

You guys are smart.  Any ideas?

I agree entirely!  I don't like the trans-words either  :-\

New words!  Blast, I can't think of anything, but we need some new ones  ;D :angel:

Ahhhhhh the label thing again.  :)

So according to everything that's good and nice I'm supposed to be a "Pre-Op" Transsexual" who will be a "Post-Op" "Transsexual" in the near future,   Hmmmmmmmm let me check...

Nope, I'm still a woman, and always will be.  It's a nice label, short and sweet, easy to say, easy to use and easy to explain...  When asked whats the difference, it's easy... I'm not a man.

Steph

I agree that calling ourselves man or woman is the endgame that, seemingly, most post ops choose.  I've noticed that the term "post op" doesn't really work as well if you're a F2M.  Some F2M's may not need or want an operation...yet, they're Post Trans.  I realize it's an issue that's probably debated every few months here at Susan's  - especially by "newbies" like myself - but I figured I'd just give it a shot to see if someone can come up with something new.

I'm with Steph on this one. I'm just a woman. Pre/post whatever. TS is jsut a convention as oppossed to CD TV or the more general TG. It is usefull here in that it gives the reader of a post a better idea of were the writer is coming from in that particular post. Beyond that I dont find the label useful for anything. I don't really know what the statistics are on post op women referring to themselves as Trans anything but I for one would just rather be seen as  a woman, like Steph said.

Cassie

Cassie, you agree that when we talk to each other in the comfort of Susan's that there IS a benefit to an acronym shorthand so we can understand "where the writer is coming from."  My suggestion for that acronym would be PT (Post Trans) rather than TS or "post op TS."  So, I'm raising it up the fl->-bleeped-<-ole and seeing if anyone salutes.  It does me no good to use "PT" if I'm the only one using it.  I'm also wondering, is a post from a post a "post post?'"

In "real life," like Cassie and Steph, I walk as a woman, and talk as a woman.  Acronyms have no part in 99% of my life.

Oooooooops
Teri Anne

When I referred to:

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on December 23, 2005, 06:41:15 PM
Ahhhhhh the label thing again. :)

I didn't mean it as be littling your post, it's just my sense of humor coming through. 

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 23, 2005, 07:03:30 PM
I realize it's an issue that's probably debated every few months here at Susan's  - especially by "newbies" like myself - but I figured I'd just give it a shot to see if someone can come up with something new.

It's debates like this  that make Susan's a great place to be, keeps us from being boring and makes us ask "why".  There are always different points of view and ideas and who is to say yours are wrong.  I certainly don't, I just don't agree with them.  :)

I would not refer to you as a newbie either, new to Susan's? maybe, new to life? I think not.

Chat later,

Steph

Steph, no offense taken.  I presume a post like mine is old news to the long time regulars here....reminds me of my film school days.  Visiting directors would visit and, inevitably, some kid in the audience (no! not me) would ask, "How should I break into the film business?"  The juniors and seniors would groan a "not again!" 

You mentioned, "I would not refer to you as a newbie either, new to Susan's? maybe, new to life? I think not."  I called myself a "newbie" because that's what the rating on my moniker is at Susan's so far.  In terms of post op'ness, I'll be seven years old this coming May.  I'll be 54 in regards to that other birthday I have.

I am a woman through and through.  Definitely not a post-man, ha.

PT?  Sure wouldn't work for me.

PT sounds alot like Part Time.

How about BTDT?  Been there done that.

I have seen people refer to themselves as "new woman"  What is that about?

Me, I'm a dyke!

Leigh, you wrote, "PT?  Sure wouldn't work for me. PT sounds alot like Part Time."

You're right.  Even worse, people could mistake PT as Post Traumatic Disorder.  Though transitions are often Traumatic, guess we'll have to junk PT.  And P Woman doesn't have a good ring to it!

You further mentioned, "I have seen people refer to themselves as "new woman"  What is that about?"

Newly wealthy people get a label, "neuveau riche" (new rich).  It's not said as a term of endearment.  I suppose, if it didn't have such a religious ring to it, "reborn" woman might be appropriate.  If we used it, imagine the nightmare a conservative religious fundamentalist might have in reading that a "reborn" woman had legally "married" some woman. 

The key word is legally!

Until it is contested.  Then its XX against XY and the courts rule that XY need not apply for insurance, inheritence and every other bennie that is granted to a natal woman in a marriage.

Why cling to anything "different"?

Are you not a woman, plain and simple?

Why drag along something that is no longer relevant (unless you are speaking medically)?

Outside of The Boards, I would never refer to myself as "transsexual"! Even on The Boards, I simply refer to myself as "post-op" since it conveys all that need be said. To someone who knows my whole life story, I might say I WAS a transsexual, but more likely I would simply refer to my birth defect or being mistakenly raised in a male role.

Though there was nothing physiologically wrong with the "parts" I was born with (as far as I know), they were "not mine" and I see no more reason to elevate their importance beyond that of a wart or other unwanted growth. They are long since gone (turned into something useful  8) ) and if we must have a label to use among ourselves, surely we can find something more appropriate. So much of the mud we carry on ourselves is the result of society's preoccupation with binary genital sex.

If we must differentiate ourselves from the binary world, maybe we should call ourselves Transcendent, having gone beyond the common and become the extraordinary!

Jane, I agree with you on all counts.  I'm pondering, now I see the silliness of discussing something we all agree with, how do I stop the discussion?  Guess I could hit the old LOCK icon.

Or....
Transcendant...beyond common, extraordinary...sounds good.

Oop, hold me down.  I almost started flying!

Teri Anne there is no need to lock anything.  Debates and discussions are good, and this one was good.

Steph

Oh course it's good, but as for labels,  hell, I'll answer to anything that is said with a smile, does a new label hurt me or change me in my reality?

Terri

Yes, I agree.  Labels are labels.  And labels are stupid (I think I've said that a few times).  While I agree, Terri, that labels will not change us, blacks, for some reason, started calling themselves Afro-Americans.  I'm presuming they renamed themselves in order to get people off the kick of looking at them purely from a color point of view.  I'm also presuming that they wanted people to consider that they came from civilization in a distant homeland...that they had a past they were proud of.

I'm a woman to all friends and strangers (I GET IT that most of us want to simply be called women, pure and simple).  Let me daydream for awhile though...I'm picturing a scene wherein I have to tell a person I love that I have a past, too.  Saying I "used to be thought of as being a male" defines it, I suppose.  But it brings up gender which, in my mind, has little to do with it...I was born a woman with a birth defect.  Transsexual and post op are good terms, too.  But they lack a sense of poetry, of art.  I'm warming up to Jane's "transcendent" term.  I can see a Time magazine cover showing a group of us with the title underneath, "Todays Transcendents."  It almost has a futuristic quality to it.  And, even though it has "trans" in the word, it has a sense of arrival that transsexual does not.  It also removes the idea that we are travelling to change genders...many or most of us feel that we were women to start with, so why intimate that we're changing genders?  It gets "gender" and "sexual" out of the equation.

One other good thing about "transcendent."  Those who call themselves T women and T men wouldn't needn't change that initial.

And yes, we would still and always would be "women."

Quote...I was born a woman with a birth defect

Much as this is going to bug the hell out of many or most here, I have to put a word to that statement, much as most here would like to believe it.

I and every other person who was born with xx or xy chemistry was supposed to be of the sex/gender that chemistry represents.  The reason we are what we are is that for whatever misunder stood reason we are mentally mutated from being what we were BORN to be, XX or XY.

There can be little or no argument about this as it is scientific fact and if this won't be accepted then any and all medical reasons for the transsexual experience must be thrown out and the consideration made that we are all nothing but products of our enironment which makes it hard to understand those who do not and can not fit that catagory.

No, Transsexuals were born with a birth defect alright, but it is a defect of the mind rather then the body for whatever reason that science still has not verified, possibly because there are many reasons for such things to happen during biological development.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, though it affects myself as well, so I'll just appliy it to myself to avoid including or offending others .... What I am is brain damaged from before birth by reasons that have never been scientifically confirmed and that damage causes me to be female in nature rather then what my chromisones dictate what I what I believe myself to be, as my mind is not made or oganized at per the biological plan of my genes.

Sorry about that, but to my understanding of knowledge of science and evolution, it is the honest truth and I must face and understand that.

Terri

Gee, Terri, wow.  And to think I was pondering locking up this post-site because we all were agreeing with one another.  You deepen, as you so often deepen, every discussion you take part in.  Thank you.

It is amazing what you said and, I think, being post op gives us all freedom to talk openly about what we're about without having to worry what some psych wants us to say.  I can hear many of psychologists ordering, "Say this, and you'll get the surgery."  By saying you feel you have a "defect of the mind" could perhaps have endangered that "hoop" process.  I don't dismiss or applaud your idea because, as you said, science and evolution is cloudy at this point.

If we are to bare our souls, there are other things that could be a cause...

- Renee Richards, a prominent post op TS doc, feels that she had an "obssession" that had no other solution than this.
- I fell off a car when I was two.  Did that do anything?
- I like the society of women better than the society of men.  It seems more civilized (though obviously there are exceptions).
- I felt trapped, not just by the men's body thing, but by the box men are kept in.  I like being emotional.  I like being able to hug someone without them thinking I'm accosting them.  I like hugging both men and women without anyone thinking I'm gay (if a guy hugs a guy,often eyes turn).  A guy who touches or hugs women is suspect.  Society accepts women touching a man's shoulder without thinking there are sexual connotations to it (In me, there aren't)

I considered all those when I transitioned and I kept coming back to two things that meant more to me than the above:
- The hermaphrodite who has genitals altered to female when they're born and they go through life KNOWING they're male.  I felt that same sense of certainty.
- The medical studies showing that a fetus body develops first the body and then the brain.  If anything happens to the hormone level in the pregnant mom while she is "carrying," the body can end up one way and the brain the other way.

That, in concise terms, are my feelings about why I'm here,   Thank you again, Terri, for sharing.

Teri Anne

I'm not really comfortable with the term "brain damaged". I don't consider my brain damaged. Although I do get what you're saying Teri-Gene. How about just female brained or male brained as the case may be. Like right brained left brained.

Cassie

I am glad you don't find objections to one of the many disagreements I have with many of the views I encounter both in forums and in real life, but I must make one thing clear to you since you apparently misunderstand.

I am not post-op.  I have been living in full time recognition, appearance and relationship of being female for just about 10 years now, but due to doctors concerns about health issues did not start HRT till sept. of 2003.  I have had an orchiectomy, but that was because of a stroke in Novermber of 2004 and they thought that continuence of HRT was not in my best interest, as they thought about my Chronic Hepititus C condition before I was able to get the right doctors together (as suggested to me by a former moderator here at Susans) before then.

I have never argued with, necessarily agreed with, or compromised in relationship with psychiatrists or psychologysts to fit their particular views.  I was originally dianosed as GID in 1969 during months (Daily) of intensive therapy to determine the causes of many problems I had relating with the public etc.... and did try to transition, but it lasted only about a year before events and fear of those events caused me to attempt to repress myself back into totally male environment which lasted into the 80's when I became less able to inhibit myself and I came out totally and irrevocably in the 90's, though I still tried as long as I was allowed to until I was forced out of my previous career and had to learn to survive with the feelings and opposition of everyone in my environment.

Thank you for taking me the way I ment it in my statement about how I feel those like us are born, but I had to clear up any misconception about my Transitional Status.  Much of how I feel is the result of having been deeply involved in the late 60's, the experience I've had and the people who have mentored me, but I am still short of the financial ability for SRS having gone through extensive expenses due to losing a highly paid career, going bankrupt and having a seriously ill and expensive woman I feel obligated and responsible for after 25 years of marrage and 26 years relationship with.  That occassionall, digs deep into what I can keep seperate from money I would like to forget I have until there is enough.

Thanks for the thought, but it is premature.

CASSIE: you are probably right about the term "brain damaged" but medically and scientifically that is the only way I can put it as that is the medical qualification of what has happened to Transsexuals.  And if you haven't guessed over time, I'm not one to worry about the use of words.

Terri

I just can't accept this incessant need to dissect everything to try and justify who and what we are.  Now we are brain damaged.  It seems that the religious right is correct in their assumption that we are unnatural, defective, perverse.  So what caused this brain damage.  What are the tests to support this.  Teri is post-op (forgive the label) is she cured did GRS/SRS fix this brain damage, or is she still brain damaged.

I'm sorry Terri but we are our own worst enemies.  It's bad enough that we have to jump through hoops, endure the ridicule, the isolation, the exclusion, the upheavals, the therapies, the letters, the jokes, the assaults, the murders, the idiots, the admirers, the lurkers, the jerks and the A**holes.

Why is it that just because I know that I am a woman infers that my brain must be damaged because I was born with a male body.

Quote- from Terri -
I've said it before and I'll say it again, though it affects myself as well, so I'll just appliy it to myself to avoid including or offending others .... What I am is brain damaged from before birth by reasons that have never been scientifically confirmed and that damage causes me to be female in nature rather then what my chromisones dictate what I what I believe myself to be, as my mind is not made or oganized at per the biological plan of my genes.

List me as an a non-believer Terri - I cannot understand why you believe that you are brain damaged by reasons that have "never been scientifically confirmed".  As I mentioned earlier based on this, you, me and every other transsexual must be wasting their time with transition, as non of what we go though will correct the brain damage.  Every post-op is still brain damaged, we just covered up the brain damage with a shell that resembles what our damaged brain thinks it should look like.

I would think that based on this theory GID "is" a treatable psychological condition and not a medical one, and research should be directed at treating the brain defect, and not correcting the outer shell.

My thoughts,

Steph

Steph, I knew that saying this would be of objection to many, even those I like and care for, but I do not understand why most Transsexual people will acknowledge the hormonial and genetic conditions which are thought by medical science to cause the condition but resent it that it obviously means that the brain is NOT in the condition it was supposed to be.

This is why I do not put much if any stock in the many things people will say and think about me because of the condition.  I know and realise how and why it happened to me without haveing to degrade into philisophical and moral reasons for justifying it or explaining it.  It is simply like I used to say years ago .... An Is, so there is nothing anyone can say about me ignoring it or changing it.  it is simply IS.  And because of my understanding of the condition and it's effects on me I tend to encounter much less of the negatism of many people in the common world of the public.  I have nothing to prove or necessarily do to feel that I am right in what I believe about my own self.  Again it just IS and since it can't be changed, why should I worry about how it is accepted by people who are not affected unless it affects my ability to just be what I what I was born believing myself to be?  Will telling people you are a woman who was born in a male body make anything different from telling them you were a male who was born with a female mind?  And which can you supply informative, documented proof to?

QuoteWhy is it that just because I know that I am a woman infers that my brain must be damaged because I was born with a male body.

And what is wrong with that being a fact? or that possibly there is some experience in your life which has affected your thinking in that way (environmental causes)?

This is why therapysts, even down to HBSOC, state that it is not to be associated with things like other common mental disorders.  Transsexuals have a "disease" that can not be corrected in any way through the mind, it has been accepted by the most part of mediicene that changing the body and the emotional state of the mind that has been affected is the only cure possible for those with the condition.  You don't have to agree with it, no more then a person that was born without eyes has to agree they will never see, but because it IS doesn't have to make you feel bad about yourself or of the medical fact.

I all to often don't understand the state of mind of many others Transsexuals who take offense at many things that are factually true but they don't agree with because it infers some kind of inferiority or whatever.  Facts are facts and I don't need to suger coat them over to make myself feel better about it, no different than a person born with a surgically correctable physical disorder z(such as ->-bleeped-<-) that they haven't been able to obtain does.

I hope everyone understands, I am not trying to throw dishsoap on anyones belief in themselves, just stating what and how it is in a medical sense and suggesting that it doesn't matter how or why it is, just that to survive in a world that will possibly never understand, we need to be at peace with ourselves and not always seek some kind of divine or mystical interpetation of why and how which  doesn't help much.  As long as one KNOWS who and what they are in a medical mental sense with no pretense, then they are what they should be.

Quotedid GRS/SRS fix this brain damage, or is she still brain damaged.

Interesting thought.  Because of what I know and understand of the science about it I would have to say that yes, one would still be brain damaged as science can not cure it, the question therefore is one happier and more in touch with themselves after SRS?  if they are, then they are sucessfull in being who they are and correct in what they believe they are.  If they are not happy with themselves in a physical and emotional sense after SRS then they were fooling themselves all along thinking they needed SRS in the first place, and that happens every so to often.

Don't take it as a rejection Steph, take it like you were born with 9 toes and fingers, thats not the way it was supposed to have been, but it is what you are in the everyday world and because it IS, you just have to accept it and hope that others do also.

Unless you want to accept that it is because of some divine intervention by some God or whatever

Terri

Hey there Terri,

And to think that teri wanted to lock this topic...  :)

QuoteDon't take it as a rejection Steph, take it like you were born with 9 toes and fingers, thats not the way it was supposed to have been, but it is what you are in the everyday world and because it IS, you just have to accept it and hope that others do also.

Rejection, not in the least.  Being born with 9 toes doesn't mean that I'm damaged, if it is working properly then it's not damaged.  Just like the brain thinking it is a woman doesn't mean that it is damaged, and it's the word "damaged" that seems to be the crux of this.  Like you, I have read extensively about GID and I have yet to find competent references by the medical and psychiatric communities referring to the brain being "damaged" in these cases.

It's the old puzzle of the chicken and the egg, which came first and what determines what. .. Is it the body and it's x's and y's - physical, or is it the brain - psychological.

And I don't have to accept anything - except death I guess :)

Steph

There are people who are right handed and ones who are left handed.  In some cases there are a few who are ambidextrious. Those of the later group may not see it as a detriment but as an enhancement of their abilities.

For what ever reason some of us were were born ambidextrious but cannot function using both hands and must make a possible life saving decision, -right or left.

Brain, body, nature or nuture what difference does it really make?  Its a fact, it happens!

Here's an interesting thought to throw into the mixture.....

Something that I found out that a "traditional" Christian family member had to say about me and my journey (of course, behind my back, as usual) which caused me to think long and hard about my own feelings and what they mean to me...

They said: "God never makes any mistakes, and if someone was born one way, then that's the way God intended it and that people (meaning me of course) should just learn to go ahead and live with it"...

Ok - so - even though I clearly identified what i would have to characterize as an overwhelming daily sheer tortous agony from my earliest childhood memories of the deepest possible desire and self-knowledge (from age 4) - of being completely obsessed as it were - wishing and hoping, every single moment of every single day - praying with all of my might - more than anything else that i could ever think of - for me to have all of my beautiful magical and girliest princess feelings of childhood to become finally realized - (how else could i possibly say it - it's overwhelming to beyond words - as so many of you are quite well aware) -
Like some magic wish that heartbreakingly never seemed to come true - I cant even remember how many times I stood and clicked my heels together just like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz - and then having to completely manage somehow to repress and hide and run from all of these feelings and a good part of my own memories, even from myself for the rest of my life up until just the last couple of years - even though it never REALLY went away -

What i'm really trying to get at is this...
Most all of the most incredibly human, deeply sensitive, wonderfully feeling and loving and completely self-aware people that i have ever had the honor and the blessing to meet and associate with, have been completely to severely traumatized to a large extent, and it is in fact this very arduous and horrifyingly difficult life's experiences that gave all of us, every single one, a truly different and usually much deeper sensitivity and awareness of life, living, and other human beings in general, as well as a real great abhorrence of ever again treating ouselves and others like how we were largely treated growing up and even onto much later in life.

If it were'nt for all of these incredibly striking, extraordinarily painful, traumatic, and deeply challenging experiences that we have somehow managed to survive, and still keep some sense of our most comfortable, and frequently, deeply loving and highly intelligent identities - which seem now full of incredible gifts of awareness of human pain and risks and deep feelings - that we can now still have the capacity and the capability to also share this with others - in beautiful strength and support together - just as all fellow human beings..

If it werent for the strength that was required to go thru all of that so far, we couldnt possibly have the strength to continue living through what most of us will, in some way or another, still have to go through, finally seek and begin to find the roads to feeling greater congruence between our physical bodies, and our minds and emotions...

I must therefore agree, in one sense, that I dont think that at least for me, it was at all mistaken, or that I was the victim of a horribly cruel birth defect or other such debilitating condition which must be corrected - i tend to think now that this was a quite natural part of my own mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual, evolvement.

As well, that it was in fact, all of that horrifyingly traumatic experience that has made me exactly the person that I am today - in many ways, even thankful for it - because without that, I may never have had the strength to come back to myself and finally begin living without the fear of what anyone else in the entire world thinks or says or wants to throw at me  -

I've already been there and suffered and been deeply tempered by the world's hatefilled ignorance, and now find myself extremely fortunate, and blessed enough to be living in a time in human culture and history where it has finally become technologically feasible and almost completely possible to become more comfortably "self-congruent", in so many incredibly wonderful ways..

Lovingly always,
Love forever,


ChefAnnagirl

Quote from: ChefAnnagirl on December 24, 2005, 08:54:30 PM

They said: "God never makes any mistakes, and if someone was born one way, then that's the way God intended it and that people (meaning me of course) should just learn to go ahead and live with it"...

In their view a child born with a cleft palatte or a curable disease should just be left that way?  Watch the hypocrites run to the nearest HMO when it happens to them.

They are to assinine to even worry about their opinion.

Steph, you said, "And to think that Teri wanted to lock this topic... "
Yes, and I guess there's a lesson there.  Just when you think you have it figured out, along comes something new.  Life is just like a box of chocolates (and some of us get the yucky ones).

Again, Terri, thanks for sharing in what must have been a hard thing to say.  Last I checked, I don't feel "brain damaged" but maybe some at work would disagree (kidding).  It seems like we're getting hung up on the words "brain damaged."  You may be sayng it's broken or not formed in the usual way but most of us, so far, feel that it's just different (not that there's anything wrong with that).  While some can live with being different, we try to save ourselves in the only seemingly logical way we an think of, at this point in time. I read recently that a surgical team just did a FULL FACE surgery the other day.  Who knows.  Maybe, in the not to distant future, M2F's and F2M's will be able to just switch bodies.  Just when you have it figured out, along comes something new.

Having a cleft palatte seems pretty darn ugly to us but I'm sure you've see the many Twilight Zone episodes wherein someone thinks they're a freak...at the end, it's revealed that the supposidly ugly woman's face looks like us and the society in the Zone look, to us, like freaks.  I've sometimes daydreamed that there might be a land (not unlike the village at the end of Farenheit 451) where we coud live as we want, without operations.  Then I bring myself back to reality and realize that, to me, the appendage that used to hang from my torso was the thing that mainly upset me.  And no amount of societal acceptance was going to fix that.  Obviously, if I grew up in a time when GRS wasn't possible, I'd just live with it.

Chef Anna said that some of the most "completely self-aware people that i have ever had the honor and the blessing to meet and associate with, have been completely to severely traumatized to a large extent."  Yeah, that's us, lol.  I do take solace in that many of society's geniuses went through trauma...  Samuel Clemens, early in his life, considered suicide.  That supposidly crazy Van Gogh could sure paint.  Beethoven didn't seem to be a happy camper either...did some pretty good music, though.  Hey, maybe my great American novel is sitting right here on my laptop.  Awaiting to be discovered.  Ah, gosh.  I'm so misunderstood.

Thank you all again.  I turned off the TV tonight and read Susan's.  Sure glad I didn't hit "lock"

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 24, 2005, 10:51:57 PM
   Sure glad I didn't hit "lock"

You might be good but you ain't that good Teri.  That function isn't available to you.

No lock?  Hmm, could have sworn I accidentally locked and then onlocked a post I'd started.  Well, there goes my omnipotence. 

Quotehave yet to find competent references by the medical and psychiatric communities referring to the brain being "damaged" in these cases.

No, I've never met a psychologist/psychiatrist who would use that term in relation to the condition, I was simply using the word because that in essance is what has happened due to the fact that for hormonial reasons the brain never developed as it should have by the original blueprint.  I call it damage because it is different and not organised or made the same as it should have been, not that it is tore up or in pieces or bits, rather perfectly whole and natural but not meeting the criteria that it was intended to by genetics.

The "damage" I was referring to was in reference to the theory that all fetuses are the same in the first few months of development, then hormonial influeces in the mother react to the presence of a Y gene in the fetus body and when present triggers changes to it that make it the male that the Y gene is there to create.  if the Y is not present, ie XX, then nothing happens and the child is born female bodied and unless the female has simular differences in the brain, c

It can be demonstrated and proven that if the hormone wash is missing or lacking in strength then the male development can be affected or even non existant, resulting in a genetic male that is both physically and mentally female other then the presence of significant reproductive organs.

Sorry about my use of language, but if I build something that does not work the way it was intended to, then some part of it is not the way it was intended, or "damaged" in my mechanical means of looking at things and issues.

Anyway I don't really care about why I'm like I am in the gender respective.  I simply want to be the best I can while dealing with it and myself over it.

Terri

ChefAnnagirl, returning to posting I hope.  you have been in a few times here and there but not on any kind of frequentcy.  hope to see you return more frequently.  I used to really enjoy debating and talking things over with you.

Enjoy tommorow and be close with those that love you.

Terri

Terri, you might be surprised to find out that I think you and I are essentially in agreement.  I stated here that one of the two main explanations I felt I was TS:  That, as a fetus, my mind and body developed at different times and, if there was a change in hormonal level when I was in the womb, that would make my mind one way and my body another.  The "hormonal wash" you mention may have been the cause.

Recently, you may have heard, chemicals ended up in the ocean outside of L.A. harbor and the resulting fish ended up part male, part female.  Were they "damaged?"  Yes, I think everone woud agree with that assessment.  It could be that the reason doctors do not use the word "damaged" in regards to us is because (1) it's not politically correct and (2) it places a subjective opinion on what should be pure science - what you call "IS."

Do I take offense at your term "damaged" in regards to me?  It's easier to take from a fellow TS than say, if a coworker said it but, in the end, it wouldn't change my opinion....Like the fish in L.A. harbor, I probably am, at best "altered," at worst "damaged."  In my life, I've always tried to be optimistic.  I look on this thing that happened - whatever caused it - to be more like "changed" than "damaged."  I think scientists would agree.  Evolution changed many species through time - who is to say that we are not some offshoot that might or might not work out as a third gender?  Until we see how this "change" plays out, to call it "damage" would, from a scientific point of view, be premature.  I would not compare my having a female brain to having a cleft pallate because, for me, having a female brain is not nearly as negative.  The negative part only comes in when we have to face how some in society sees us - that is, that we're just as freakish, in our own way.  People with cleff pallates obviously get more sympathy because their "damage" is visible to all.  Our "damage" is hidden in our brains and no one, even us, knows with certainty why we do what we do.  I'm a big fan of science and, the more you study things, the more complex things can get.

Why we are what we are...why there is life...why there isn't life nearer our planet...why the universe formed...for now, Terri, they're just, as you would say, an "is."

Quote from: Terri Gene on December 25, 2005, 12:51:55 AM
No, I've never met a psychologist/psychiatrist who would use that term in relation to the condition, I was simply using the word because that in essance is what has happened due to the fact that for hormonial reasons the brain never developed as it should have by the original blueprint.  I call it damage because it is different and not organised or made the same as it should have been, not that it is tore up or in pieces or bits, rather perfectly whole and natural but not meeting the criteria that it was intended to by genetics.

The "damage" I was referring to was in reference to the theory that all fetuses are the same in the first few months of development, then hormonial influeces in the mother react to the presence of a Y gene in the fetus body and when present triggers changes to it that make it the male that the Y gene is there to create.  if the Y is not present, ie XX, then nothing happens and the child is born female bodied and unless the female has simular differences in the brain, c

It can be demonstrated and proven that if the hormone wash is missing or lacking in strength then the male development can be affected or even non existant, resulting in a genetic male that is both physically and mentally female other then the presence of significant reproductive organs.

Sorry about my use of language, but if I build something that does not work the way it was intended to, then some part of it is not the way it was intended, or "damaged" in my mechanical means of looking at things and issues.

Anyway I don't really care about why I'm like I am in the gender respective.  I simply want to be the best I can while dealing with it and myself over it.

Terri

Haaaaaaaa Terri, this is where we definitely agree. :)  I just hate the word Damaged

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 - Damaged:  Injury or harm to person, property, or reputation; an inflicted loss of value; detriment; hurt; mischief. [1913 Webster]

QuoteFrom Terri -
...rather perfectly whole and natural but not meeting the criteria that it was intended to by genetics.

And to me that is the definition of "Special"  :)

Have a wonderful Christmas Terri

Steph

This has been an interesting thread so far.

I, too, don't like the label 'damaged', but there's certainly something -different- about us when compared to a statistical cross-setion of humanity.

I've been pondering off and on what makes me different for some time.  The big thing was wondering why I seemed to be a bully-magnet whenever I got into a new situation and not being able to compete with the driven-competitor types that pepper the workaday landscape.

But I keep coming back to some hints my mother dropped in conversations with me just before she suddenly died (about 15 years ago.)

One thing I remember clearly was her mentioning to me that she had been prescribed some drug while pregnant with my younger sisters that had been found to greatly increase the incidence of cervical cancer in females exposed to that drug in the womb.  What drug?  I don't know/can't remember.  I thought she had told her daughters about it, but I just recently found out that they were in the dark until I asked them about it.

The other one is a dimly-remembered conversation about some drug she had taken while pregnant with me.  I don't remember what the drug or the possible harm might have been, but she concluded that topic with, "Well, anyway, you seem to have turned out all right."  As I said, just a faint recollection.

As an aside, I think she was always waiting for me to say, "Mom, guess what!  I'm a ->-bleeped-<-!"  But I never did, 'cause I'm not.  But had I done so, I'm sure of her unconditional acceptance of me, just as I'm sure she would unconditionally accept my decision to become her daughter.

Am I damaged?  No, I'm me.  I've always found it hard to function in the male team/sports-metaphor world where rules are made to be broken if you can get away with it, etc. But I make up for that deficiency with my creative and technical skills, and by building alliances with 'protectors.'  I am what I am.

But I'd sure like to find out what my mom was prescribed during her pregnancy with me and my sisters.  I think it's a good thing to know -- something to be added to my medical record for a variety of reasons.  Does anyone have any advice on how to go about tracking down that information?

Hope this hasn't sent the thread too far off on a tangent.  Moderators, if you feel this post is inappropriate to this thread, feel free to move it to its own topic.

The name of the drug you are referring to is Diethylstilbestrol (DES)

QuoteFrom The CDC - Diethylstilbestrol (DES) is a synthetic estrogen that was developed to supplement a woman's natural estrogen production. First prescribed by physicians in 1938 for women who experienced miscarriages or premature deliveries, DES was originally considered effective and safe for both the pregnant woman and the developing baby.

There is a lot of information that can be found on the  CDC web site (http://www.cdc.gov/DES/consumers/about/index.html) also check out this link in the  Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol)

Steph

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on December 25, 2005, 11:18:03 PM
The name of the drug you are referring to is Diethylstilbestrol (DES)

There is a lot of information that can be found on the  CDC web site (http://www.cdc.gov/DES/consumers/about/index.html) also check out this link in the  Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol)

Steph

uhh...

wow...

Thanks.  Now if I can track down mom's medical records from about 50 years ago.  I have no idea who the physician(s) was(were).

Hazamu, your post was VERY apropos for it led to Steph telling us important info about DES (a strong estrogen hormone, now banned). 

Steph - I was shocked when I read your post and then went to the CDC website.  As I read the info, I felt that it perhaps corroborated what I'd always suspected - that I'd gotten a spike of estrogen hormone while I was in the fetus and that made my brain different than my body.  Unfortunately, my mom's dead so I can't ask her any questions.  I note, though that the CDC is doing studies around where I was born.

The CDC site said:
Psychosexual Characteristics of Men and Women Exposed Prenatally to Diethylstilbestrol (Titus-Ernstoff et al., 2003)
Diethylstilbestrol (DES) is a strong synthetic estrogen, and animal studies suggest that estrogen affects the developing brain

DES estrogen "affects the developing brain."  Damn them!  I feel, while it confirms my long-held suspicions, like I've been hit in the stomach.  We can argue the semantics back and forth all night but, if DES "affects the developing brain," my brain may have been messed with.  Just like that toxic stuff that made fish in the L.A. harbor both male and female, this medical side effect of DES should have been presumed.  If it turns out that my mom had DES, I feel violated.  Giving hormones to pregnant mothers?  Whaaaaat did they think would happen!?!

Teri Anne

QuoteThe big thing was wondering why I seemed to be a bully-magnet whenever I got into a new situation and not being able to compete with the driven-competitor types that pepper the workaday landscape.

Undersood Hazumu, I did know though, I was simply smaller and weaker and so over time I learned to be not so much bigger but a lot stronger and competed every inch with anyone and everything till they were left competing with me.  Isn't it a miricle how the the bullies seem to disapear when they have less or no chance at you anymore?

as to tracking your mothers medical records, look at your birth certificate.  They generally list the name of the doctor who delivered you when you were born and in those days (were about the same age) the doctor who delivered a baby was most likely her personal MD.  At any rate, with the name of the hospital, a photo of the birth certificate and the doctor of delivery name you should be able to obtain her medical chart from the medical secretaries of the hospital.  Easy enough, the hardest part is establishing a right to the records, but then you got the proof of being her son in your BC.  Always think in the simplist terms first before making it hard on yourself.

Terri

Terri, being you're in the hospital biz -
If I have all the paperwork you noted above, how guarded are hospitals in giving out the birth medical records for me and my mom?  I would presume that hospitals wouldn't like to give out such records because they'd be afraid of being sued -- especially when they know there are CDC tests on DES side effects are being done in the area where I was born.

re: records -- I tried a couple of times now to get my craneofacial surgery medical records from Osterhaut.  They tell me that they'll send them but they never have.  Makes me, again, suspicious that they don't release medical records for fear of lawsuits (I just want them so I can give them to my GP - something I've told Osterhaut's office)

Teri Anne

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 26, 2005, 03:22:16 AM
re: records -- I tried a couple of times now to get my craneofacial surgery medical records from Osterhaut.  They tell me that they'll send them but they never have.  Makes me, again, suspicious that they don't release medical records for fear of lawsuits (I just want them so I can give them to my GP - something I've told Osterhaut's office)
Teri Anne 

The law is very clear here.  The records belong to you and any medical provider is required to give you copies (usually with a written request). They are legally entitled to charge a copying fee as long as it's reasonable.  If you want your records, I would contact an attorney to write a letter to the doctor.  If that doesn't work.  Report him to the state medical board.

Dawn

"Brain damaged"? No way! "Body damaged" maybe!

One must consider which is the more important parts of a human being and draw their reference from the most important part (speaking as a scientist). Leaving aside any reference to the Spirit that inhabits the physical being, the BRAIN must be considered the major part of what makes a human. If the brain is female then the lesser part (the body) is the "damaged" part. To say otherwise would be to say that your wart has a growth on it because it is attached to a human being!

There is one thing I can say with 100% certainty, being 56, 32 years post-op and mostly stealth: my brain is in FINE shape, with no problems whatsoever! It is also a perfectly normal female brain and always has been (though that did not become evident until transition). Actually, it is a bit extraordinary in that it survived 24 years of horrible abuse without any neuroses or other abnormalities!

I too prefer the idea of "brain different" to "brain damaged". To take the analogy one step further (and hopefully not into the offensive), a racist society does not make dark skin "damaged" in comparison to lighter skin. It's just different and a negative value is placed on it by the racist society.

I think of myself as "man", purely and simply. Yes, I'm a guy with a different history. And I am physically different from most other men. But if I had a prosthetic leg instead of a prosthetic penis, I'd be different too. And some partners would not be able to handle either difference, so partners should obviously be advised. But Joe Sixpack at the bar doesn't need to know. And I don't need to define myself any differently to him.

Dennis

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 26, 2005, 02:46:37 AM
Hazamu, your post was VERY apropos for it led to Steph telling us important info about DES (a strong estrogen hormone, now banned). 

Steph - I was shocked when I read your post and then went to the CDC website.  As I read the info, I felt that it perhaps corroborated what I'd always suspected - that I'd gotten a spike of estrogen hormone while I was in the fetus and that made my brain different than my body.  Unfortunately, my mom's dead so I can't ask her any questions....  <snip>

Giving hormones to pregnant mothers?  Whaaaaat did they think would happen!?!

Teri Anne

The article in The Wikipedia gets a pretty good explanation of what went wrong but it was prescribed along the same lines that they administered Thalidomide in the 50s and 60s to pregnant women to alleviate morning sickness.  I've been trying to find out from my mom if she had been prescribed DES, but we're going back to 1952 now  :(

I don't believe that DES has been proven to affect the brains of the developing fetus but it is interesting.  This is a quote from "DES Action Canada":

Quote
Intersexuality/Gender Dysphoria: Some researchers have recognized the potential that DES exposure in males may be a factor in the formation of ambiguous genitalia as well as other conditions associated with intersexuality and gender dysphoria in males.

Steph

Teri,  As said by Dawn, As long as you have a legal claim to medical records of another individual, you are intitled to access them.  the proper methode, outside of a lawyer and the $$ to get them to write a letter explaining the request is to contact the medical records division of the hospital that has them and request a copy of the records with the reason for the request or need.  The actual department to contact directly is generally referred to as Medical Secretretaries.  They can explain the conditions you must meet in order to be eligible to receive this information and what it will cost to receive a copy.

This issue of wanting information about a particular drug is not and should not be relevant to anything about this request.  They would not be particularly worried about information about a particular drug which was FDA approved and commly distributed.  Any lawsuits in such matters is generally directed at the drug manufacturer, not the doctor or hospital who used it under FDA approval.

As to the inportance of an individual researching a possibility of a particular drug having been responsible for a personal condition, I see little reason for unless they are attempting a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer or for simple public information, but even knowing or having information as to why one is transsexual is basically not revalant in any way as long as no cure, short of SRS is available to correct the condition, though if one had a lot of money and good lawyers it might force the manufacturer to pay or reimburse a transsexual the cost of SRS and for the disruptive influences on thier life, but lawsuits of any kind would depend on first proving in court that the drug did indead, above any other cause create the transsexual problem.

Unless there is some possibility of compensation I for one would not care How or Why my Transsexual condition exists.  It just IS and I have to live with all it has made of my life and nothing can change that, not even vast amounts of money, not that I got anything against money.

It would be a worthwhile endever to research though in regards to showing a connection between the drug and transsexualism as making this a statistical record and fact is the beginning of any possible class action law suit against the manufacturer, but as Dennis is the lawyer, he could be more intelligently specific about such things.

Terri

Quoteas Dennis is the lawyer, she could be more intelligently specific about such things.

That a typo or a compliment, Terri?

:P

Dennis

Quote from: terri-geneAs to the inportance of an individual researching a possibility of a particular drug having been responsible for a personal condition, I see little reason for unless they are attempting a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer or for simple public information, but even knowing or having information as to why one is transsexual is basically not revalant in any way as long as no cure, short of SRS is available to correct the condition, though if one had a lot of money and good lawyers it might force the manufacturer to pay or reimburse a transsexual the cost of SRS and for the disruptive influences on thier life, but lawsuits of any kind would depend on first proving in court that the drug did indead, above any other cause create the transsexual problem.

How about general interest!  As you've mentioned while there is little that anyone can do about it now, I'm just interested in the subject the same way that I'm interested in what my father died of two years ago.  There is nothing I can do about it but it would still be nice to know it was something hereditary.  Just call me curious.  :)

Steph

dun know Dennis, but I never was a spelling genius, but my oppologies for a serious mistake, it was nothing I was thinking, just the effect of getting out of bed with no coffee made and thinking I was thinking.  You can hit me with my old brick when/if you see me again.  I deserve it.  I edited it though once I realized how mistakenly I wrote it in your highlight quote.

oppologies are insufficient,

Terri

QuoteThere is nothing I can do about it but it would still be nice to know it was something hereditary.  Just call me curious. 

Steph

You are right Steph, there is nothing you can do about it but as to

QuoteHow about general interest!

I believe I included that when I also stated:

QuoteIt would be a worthwhile endever to research though in regards to showing a connection between the drug and transsexualism as making this a statistical record and fact is the beginning of any possible class action law suit against the manufacturer,

I guess I should have also stated for self interest also, that kind of slipped by though because like I also stated, in my mind such self interest as to why isn't relevant since I can do nothing about it.

Besides Steph, according to the expert opinions it either is hereditary due to developmental abnormalties or environmentally created?   Both expainations may be true depending on the individual, but regardless, if it has progressed in the mind to the extent of being irreversable, and you are what you are, would it make you any more at ease with yourself to know exactly what happened to cause it if there is nothing that can be done at this point about it other then completely accept it and do what has to be done to live with it? 

Terri

"Drain Bamaged"?  As I said before, I'm me.  I will be me through my transition, and I will still be 'me', although likely changed, if I'm successful at transiting.  I've always been comfortable being me, and if a shot of synthetic estrogen in the womb nudged my brain over into the 'female' column -- well I'm (finally) following that path, and Hallelujah that 21st century medicine can correct the mistakes of 20th century medicine.

Thanks for all the bits of info on resurrecting medical records.  Both for my sake and my sisters' sakes I think we (my sisters and I) should try to track this down and see what mom was given to take while pregnant with each of us.

It might also answer the cryptic remark my mom made to me in the month or so before her sudden death, "Thank god you seemed to have turned out all right..."

As another bit of fodder to this thread, there does seem to be a statistical 'bump' in the number of people claiming GID who were born during the height of DES usage.  Is it due to better recordkeeping, advancement of the medical arts to diagnose and treat GID, or due directly to the usage of DES?  I'll leave the task of answering that question to the staticians.

Steph, you wrote, "How about general interest!  As you've mentioned while there is little that anyone can do about it now, I'm just interested in the subject the same way that I'm interested in what my father died of two years ago.  There is nothing I can do about it but it would still be nice to know it was something hereditary.  Just call me curious."

Steph and Terri - Put me in the column of "very interested," also.  Though I know that there are plenty of TS's that would rather NOT know what caused it, I am definitely the opposite: (1) It would "legitemize" my need to transition to society - I'm sure that many think that we transition for something as frivolous as wanting to wear different clothing.  (2) It would give me a sense of closure - kind of like a family finally finding out what happened to a missing daughter.

Steph, your quote from DES Action Canada was fascinating: "Intersexuality/Gender Dysphoria: Some researchers have recognized the potential that DES exposure in males may be a factor in the formation of ambiguous genitalia as well as other conditions associated with intersexuality and gender dysphoria in males."

Wow.  Thanks, Steph.

Teri Anne

Quote from: Terri Gene on December 26, 2005, 06:47:50 PM
dun know Dennis, but I never was a spelling genius, but my oppologies for a serious mistake, it was nothing I was thinking, just the effect of getting out of bed with no coffee made and thinking I was thinking.  You can hit me with my old brick when/if you see me again.  I deserve it.  I edited it though once I realized how mistakenly I wrote it in your highlight quote.

oppologies are insufficient,

Terri

Oh, bah, no worries. I thought maybe it was that I was thinking exceptionally clearly for a male, so your mind unconsciously used a female pronoun ;)

Just teasin ya Terri.

Dennis