Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Good evening guys and dolls.

I know this is a pretty sore topic, but...

Today, my mother had an incident at work.
A woman introduced herself as Ms. So-and-so, and it was very clear she was living as a woman, but her passing quotient was 0%.
Mom understands that mtfs are women and accepts transpeople. But she struggled the whole time to remember she was talking to a woman, not a man, and butchered the pronouns.
When relating this to me, she said that because the woman looked very much like a man, she had a hard time not seeing a man and using female pronouns. But it's not hard when the woman is passable, even if she knows she's trans.

I'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

This topic is not meant to be incendiary, but introspective.
Honesty much preferred.


Nero

Oh no Nero, what are you going to get me into now?  Okay, you want honesty? here it is:

I have had certain experiences in my life pertaining to this.  As you probably know, I have become an internet addict and have been frequenting TS sites in the last year.  Well, I used to be very close to certain people on the web.  They identified themselves as females, expressed themselves as females on their posts but didn't have a picture of themselves posted.

Eventually, these women decided to share their photos with everyone on the board, and needless to say, I was rather surprised to see that their physical characteristics did not match what they had been bragging about for months.

Indeed, like your mom said, they looked like men (and sorry I don't intend to offend anyone with this remark, I am just explaining my experience).  After looking at their photographs, I found it really difficult to relate to them as women/females.  As a matter of fact I felt very awkward just by exchanging some emails with them.  It seemed that the whole enchantment had been broken.  I couldn't see them as before anymore.  I was disappointed with myself because I thought that after SRS, I had grown past that issue, but I hadn't.

I don't know if this helps or if I am making any sense at all, but I certainly understand your mom; it is extremely difficult to relate to someone as female when that someone doesn't look like one.  Again, perhaps I have some insecurity issues I have to work on; who knows; I just didn't feel comfortable looking at their photos and acknowledging they were women like I was.
I hope I haven't offended anyone and if I have, I deeply apologize.

tink :icon_chick:

Strangely enough, this bothers me more if the person is seemingly oblivious to the fact that the person facing them would have to do a conscious effort to treat them as female and just expect it like it was soooo obvious.

If the person is conscient of their shortcoming seemingly understand that people's perception/reaction to them will be skewed from the reaction to a GG (basically not delusional) but are expecting mostly respect and civility from others, then I have no problem with that and will do my best to do so. But, its improbable that I will treat them exactly as though they were GG's.

I think the key problem with the whole premise of this issue is that it completely and totally relies on assumptions. We all know how accurate assumptions can be also. Unless said person definitively tells you how they want to be addressed that's exactly what you'll be doing.

The next assumption that is being made is that you "know" what female or male is to begin with. I guess i don't see any need to treat X or Y identification differently from the other. "Passability" is a very vague concept to begin with and quite personal too it seems, different people will have different definitions on that subject also. I mean ( disregard this if you don't accept androgyne as a valid identity ) if you meet someone who identifies as androgyne there may be not obvious physical cues of such and you can only know how to address them after they tell you as such.

When you realize that "treating" someone as X or Y has no real definition then it kind of loses it's meaning, both to treating someone as such and asking to be treated as such. The only real thing you can ask for is to be treated as a human being and to have your basic rights repsected and have no uninformed assumptions made. That may be too much to ask but i still think it's worth a shot.

Quote from: Tink on August 31, 2007, 11:09:51 PM
After looking at their photographs, I found it really difficult to relate to them as women/females.  As a matter of fact I felt very awkward just by exchanging some emails with them.  It seemed that the whole enchantment had been broken.

Exactly why I pulled down all my photos, and why I hesitate to talk to anyone here on the phone. I NEED the validation I feel here, at least for now, and don't want to risk losing that. Everyone here is always so encouraging and supportive... but you never know what someone is *really* thinking, if the spell was broken.

There are a few women for whom I've only seen pre-HRT pictures of... and at least for the ones I'm thinking of, the personality soon overrides any physical male impressions I may have of them. It almost seems like they're pictures of someone else... I can't mentally connect the photos to the soul.

Dealing with someone in person might be different, but ironically the only real experience I have is with someone who might self-identify as a "->-bleeped-<-," meaning someone who wants to feminize but who specifically wants to keep and enjoy their male genitals and sexuality. They've made no physical changes yet, but they're so incredibly soft-spoken and feminine, it's hard for me to think of them as a "guy," even when they're sitting there with a beard shadow.

So I dunno, I guess my answer is IT DEPENDS, lol...

~Kate~

Quote from: Jaycie on August 31, 2007, 11:53:00 PM

The next assumption that is being made is that you "know" what female or male is to begin with. I guess i don't see any need to treat X or Y identification differently from the other...

When you realize that "treating" someone as X or Y has no real definition then it kind of loses it's meaning, both to treating someone as such and asking to be treated as such.

There's not a 'need' to treat X and Y differently, it's more of a subconscious thing. Automatic. Not something done intentionally.
Like with Tink's situation (correct me if I'm wrong, Tink), she was relating to them in the way women relate to their girlfriends.
But when she saw them, she felt uncomfortable and could no longer relate to them as girlfriends.
She couldn't match the photos to the identities, and it was as if suddenly some men walked into a women's spa house or something - the conversation and laughter stops, everyone's checking to ensure her robe is providing adequate coverage, etc.

Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 12:28:50 AM
There's not a 'need' to treat X and Y differently, it's more of a subconscious thing. Automatic. Not something done intentionally.
Like with Tink's situation (correct me if I'm wrong, Tink), she was relating to them in the way women relate to their girlfriends.
But when she saw them, she felt uncomfortable and could no longer relate to them as girlfriends.
She couldn't match the photos to the identities, and it was as if suddenly some men walked into a women's spa house or something - the conversation and laughter stops, everyone's checking to ensure her robe is providing adequate coverage, etc.

QuoteAll the discussion about 'what is female or male' is head-oriented stuff and an interesting and important matters to discuss,  but not something I experience in an intuitive, unconscious way. The vast, vast majority of people (and very likely most genderqueers) do, in fact, gender people whether they like it or not. And while one might have a more sophisticated take on the gendering process and call many of its assumptions into question, that doesn't mean the gendering isn't happening at its almost primitive (dumb?) level.

Doesn't that speak to more of a social problem that is solvable rather than just shrug and place the blame on "i can't help it"? If there's no need for it then there should be a concious effort to not do it. Blaming it on 'automatic' is just a cop-out.  ???

In a very loose sense it smells like the "gay panic defense", that you just can't help your reaction to what you see which we all know is just completley untrue.

QuoteI'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

No, it's not... and not all cisgendered people have this problem.  I don't.  I take people as they come to me.  If they introduce themselves to be as female then I view them as female.  If they introduce to me as male then I view them as male. 

The people I have the most slipup's in pronouns are androgynes... one in particular on this board, and they know that I'm trying -very- hard not to slip...   I'm not sure why I slip with them.... It's not that I don't view them as androgyne,  I think it's a combination of their name, and some of the pictures they have where they are cosplaying as one particular gender.

None the less..

I try to follow the golden rule.  Treat everyone the way I would want to be treated.

I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting... :-\

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting... :-\

In my experience, the transsexual "community" is far more unforgiving than the general public is.

~Kate~

Quote from: regina on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
Personally, I found you mixing in the 'gay panic defense' a not very fair part of this discussion. It's like calling someone you disagree with a nazi. The gay panic defense specifically relates to acts of extreme violence and a justification for that violence, not how you experience someone when you're walking down the street or in one-on-one contact. Last time I looked, gendering people as other than who they identify with is not an act of violence.

That's why i said that i used it in a very loose sense. :) It's a very good example on shifting responsibility to the 'victim' for an "automatic" reaction. Another one being,  "that person shouldn't have dressed so sexily if they didn't want to be raped". Yes they're both extreme examples, but still relevant i think.

Quote from: Kate on September 01, 2007, 01:24:03 AM

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting... :-\

In my experience, the transsexual "community" is far more unforgiving than the general public is.

~Kate~

Well on some level I've noticed this too..

Though it isn't unexpected for a trans to 'spot' a trans when the general public might not... basically you know what you're looking for...  Whereas the general public will take people at 'face value' and not look too deeply...

But I do notice some members of the trans community being very critical of other members of the trans community, and members of the gay community etc... when as minorities I really think we should be sticking together.

Quote from: regina on September 01, 2007, 01:53:10 AM
From your perspective it's shifting responsibility. From my perspective, you're trying to politicize something that, at it's most mundane level, isn't political, it's perceptual. Yes, I think there are many societal reasons that people are treated certain ways and how we relate to that person. But that's a separate issue from how we gender people in the instantaneous/automatic way it occurs. What we do with that gendering and relate to the person after the gendering occurs might very well be a political/social issue.

The gendering process itself is, in my belief, very unconscious. I see a lot of people putting a big layer of judgment on that process as if it's something you can just shift if you want to. And I don't believe one can. Once you've gendered someone I would hope you would try to treat that person as their target gender and be solicitous of their name, legalistic and pronoun preferences. But that don't mean you're going to deep-down, relate to that person in the way they're hoping for. Nor do I believe you can educate people's innate reactions away. You can educate how they have perspective on those reactions. So, perhaps we could disagree without you having to characterize me as somehow supporting 'rape' or 'gay panic'. Do you think it's possible for you to do that?

ciao,
Gina M.

Maybe the problem is that i expect more of people than that. And i do disagree that you can't educate some of these 'innate' reactions away. If not then sexism and racism would never go away since they were quite acceptable in the past and from what i've seen quite a lot of the people who feel in such ways would call them innate too.

Is it really so hard to say 'they' instead of he/she if there's some question about a person or if they haven't informed you of what they prefer? Does solidly gendering a person right off give any inherent benefits? All it does in my opinion is to lead to a road of unfounded assumptions.

I'll completely agree that i'm somewhat of an idealist in this area but there's no reason to take an assumption and then treat someone differently than if you hadn't made an uninformed decision in the first place.

As for the comment about "characterizing you as supporting rape or gay panic",  both of those are examples of situations that are similar in a vague essence, not fact. Therefore neither characterized you as 'supporting' anything at all.  :)

As this is a taboo subject, I going to give my 2 cents worth here and bugger the consequences. ::)

For a start, the main topic questions about the 'unpassables' which in itself I find offensive.  It's sort of like the 'unmentionables.'  As we go along we find people have difficulty in their pronouns, he/she.  O.k, so would you prefer to use 'it'?  Maybe you should ask the 'offending' person if they might prefer that title instead because it's just too hard to remember she/he, especially while looking directly at them dressed in their feminine attire :o.
Also, it doesn't matter how that person expresses their feelings, communicates  in a feminine way etc. they look too male, well that's it then, they're shot!  It's over, they must be ostracised immediately, barred from friendships with others who have a similar past/history.  Perhaps 'real' women would be more forgiving, more tolerant, more engaging.  Yes, I think so....no, I know that to be so.   :)

I had hoped for a more understanding and unprejudice lot of people here, but I see that was too much to ask.  :(

Being Male, Female or somewhere inbetween really starts inside that person. Assuming no visual image to sway my interpretation, generally I can determine from how they act (say through chat or forum postings) that that person is sincere with their feelings of who they are. Thats good enough for me. I feel compassion for all of us TG folk and even if they looked extremely "unpassable" I would give them the full curtesy and respect another member of the human race deserves. Yes it may be necessary to ask them a couple questions to key into what their specific situation is but then you know and you can treat them how they want to be treated.

Maybe appearances make a big deal to many, but it should instead be about who's inside.

M&M
We're all people

QuoteI'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

I see the beauty of who someone is inside, for me that shines through regardless of their exterior presentation. I am also open to the possibility of more than two genders, so I see a person with all their gendered history as something very beautiful and special. If you're a transwomen with deep bass voice and 3 day beard, if you're a transman with breasts and feminine features, if you're something else entirely, that's all great. Tell me what pronouns to use, and I'll use them. I look at who you are as person. If you're a decent person, we'll get along just fine  ;D If you're a mean belligerent person, I don't care what you're gender is, I'll avoid you like the plague  >:D

When it comes down to it, I question the whole concept of passing, why must we shoehorn ourselves into two very narrow boxes of what society (and our trans community) thinks gender is? Yes, I absolutely understand the need for passing in our day to day existence, it can be very dangerous to be perceived as something "other" than completely male or female, especially by transphobic people who might wish to harm us.

Thanks Nero for posting these questions, I think the trans community needs to discuss these "taboo" topics and confront our own phobias.

zythyra

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting... :-\

I went into transition assuming that all of your worst cast would be true.  I figured I would not pass and would not be accepted as female.  Well, for any one individual, that may turn out to be true, and there is no way to know ahead of time how it's all going to turn out.  In this case, if you need other people's approval for what you are doing, you're headed for trouble.  Transition is for people who can find love and acceptance within themselves, not need it from society.  You have to go in saying, "I don't care what anybody else thinks.  I have to do this for myself."

Quote from: Lisbeth on September 01, 2007, 11:26:18 AM

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting... :-\

I went into transition assuming that all of your worst cast would be true.  I figured I would not pass and would not be accepted as female.  Well, for any one individual, that may turn out to be true, and there is no way to know ahead of time how it's all going to turn out.  In this case, if you need other people's approval for what you are doing, you're headed for trouble.  Transition is for people who can find love and acceptance within themselves, not need it from society.  You have to go in saying, "I don't care what anybody else thinks.  I have to do this for myself."

I totally agree with you, Lisbeth. Although that takes a lot of strength many people (myself included) just don't have.

ciao,
Gina M.

If you're trying to pass as something, then that means you aren't it.  So as far as I know there's no such thing as unpassable women.  If someone is a woman, I could give a crap what they look like.

It's really not all that hard.

I really despise this weird segregation of passable/unpassable.  It's so internet.

Honestly... it really depends on the person standing infront of me....

Looks like a linebacker in a dress... horrable voice... but is acting female?  "Yes mam, no mam, so on and so forth..."  I hope "SHE" has a nice day...

Looks female but sounds like a guy... but very soft spoken and so on. "mam"

Looks female but acts like a man in a dress, has a bad voice, guzzling beer, spewing obcenities, and scratching there crotch <Or worse>  "Yes sir, no sir...  You make it hard to call you mam, your not acting like a lady...

Looks and sounds female but dosnt act it....  Hey sounds like my ex... and two of my best friends... though there obviously female, there more of tomboys...

Looks, sounds and acts female... duh "mam"

Looks male but dosnt sound it "Sir"

Looks female but is obviously trying not to, and trying not to sound it either. "Sir" with some difficulties...

Looks female and sounds female... just with a short haircut or something "Mam"...

Looks, sounds and acts like a man. duh "Yes sir"

Sounds female/male on phone <reguardless of who they really are> go by the name given and hope you dont make an ass of yourself....  Some GGs sound like men, some GM's sound like women<more rare> and it does make a TS's day when you deal with them as there gender over the phone reguardless of voice.  Years of customer service experiance at work  ;)


Seriously It seems to be on a case by case bassis...  Where I live though, I generaly run into those horrable creatures known as Drag Queens...  I do go out of my way to call them sir, they are not women, even for the day... One or two I make exceptions for, and any new ones I do as well... but yeah...

QuoteI really despise this weird segregation of passable/unpassable.  It's so internet.

Sarah,

I despise this segregation too. I came out as trans in 1993, before I was aware of any trans presence on the internet, and unfortunately, I ran into this hierarchy face to face at almost every trans event or group I encountered then too. This "who's at the bottom of the ladder" has existed for way too long in our community. Grrrr.

zythyra

Quote from: regina on September 01, 2007, 12:32:11 AM

Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 10:44:13 PM
Good evening guys and dolls.
I'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

Nero

I'm kind of curious why you limit it to transwomen...

Not limited. See the above in bold, lol. The subject came up because the particular incident involved a transwoman.

Quote...are they somehow held up to a different standard than transmen?

No.

QuoteDo transwomen somehow have to look more passable before they're accepted as female?

Well, I think passability is somewhat more of an issue among transwomen than transmen.
For several reasons:

a. Transwomen do get the short end of the stick when it comes to passability. T is such a powerful chemical and it poisons their bodies. Electrolysis, FFS, voice training, etc. Not to mention the things that cannot be altered.
While transmen have only to take T to pass as male. Not the same amount of work involved.
Another thing is that a feminine looking transman may just look like a very young man or teenage boy.

b. The general public (outside of places with large trans awareness) has likely never heard of transmen or if they have, the thought wouldn't likely pop into their head everytime they see a small, softer voiced man.
But everybody is aware of ->-bleeped-<-s and drag queens, and I think that makes it harder on transwomen because if there's anything masculine looking about them at all, people will just think 'oh, it's a ->-bleeped-<-.'

c. Also, if a transman is read, it's 'oh, that's just a bull dyke.' There are not the same implications as being seen as a ->-bleeped-<-. Stakes are much higher for transwomen.

So the deck just is not stacked in favor of transwomen when it comes to passing. It all boils down to the power of testosterone.

What I am really annoyed by is the kneejerk reaction of people in this group whenever we point out that maybe we will not react the same way as with a GG. The difference may be subtle and may even disapeer as we know the individual better, but that reaction will undoubtably be there.

The TS individual in front may not even know there's a difference, but there will be even if the person is the most liberal on earth. It has nothing to do with not being their friends or being ostratized, building strawman arguments is the oldest trick on earth and it doesn't fly at all with me.

Even if the difference is subtle, there WILL be a difference at least initially. That person's still a human being who will get all my respect regardless, but my reaction will get skewed in some way.

Quote from: Jaycie on September 01, 2007, 12:50:20 AM

Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 12:28:50 AM
There's not a 'need' to treat X and Y differently, it's more of a subconscious thing. Automatic. Not something done intentionally.
Like with Tink's situation (correct me if I'm wrong, Tink), she was relating to them in the way women relate to their girlfriends.
But when she saw them, she felt uncomfortable and could no longer relate to them as girlfriends.
She couldn't match the photos to the identities, and it was as if suddenly some men walked into a women's spa house or something - the conversation and laughter stops, everyone's checking to ensure her robe is providing adequate coverage, etc.

QuoteAll the discussion about 'what is female or male' is head-oriented stuff and an interesting and important matters to discuss,  but not something I experience in an intuitive, unconscious way. The vast, vast majority of people (and very likely most genderqueers) do, in fact, gender people whether they like it or not. And while one might have a more sophisticated take on the gendering process and call many of its assumptions into question, that doesn't mean the gendering isn't happening at its almost primitive (dumb?) level.

Doesn't that speak to more of a social problem that is solvable rather than just shrug and place the blame on "i can't help it"? If there's no need for it then there should be a concious effort to not do it. Blaming it on 'automatic' is just a cop-out.  ???

In a very loose sense it smells like the "gay panic defense", that you just can't help your reaction to what you see which we all know is just completley untrue.

It IS automatic though. Involuntary response. You see someone, you assess them, and not just in gender either.
Can you not tell whether someone is black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, automatically when you see them?
Gender is no different. We have eyes - it IS automatic.

I agree Nero, it is an automatic response and normally you don't have control over it.  I don't intend to go off topic here, but I want to say something.

BTW it is not a hypothetical situation but something that happened to me.   One time, not long ago, I refused to share a hotel room with someone who didn't pass as a woman.  She indentified as TS, but was only living part-time as a woman.  She had just begun electrolysis and needless to say her demeanor and appearance were still very *male*.  I absolutely refused to share a hotel room with this person, for I couldn't see her as female.  Of course I never told her that; all I did was to talk to the person who was organizing the event and expressed my concerns.

Nowadays, this person is living fulltime, HRT has transformed her appearance, and she has improved her demeanor considerably.  I wouldn't mind to share a room with her now.  I don't know why I am saying this.  I guess I still feel horrible about what I did, but at that particular time, it made perfect sense (to me at least).  :-\  *sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Jaycie on September 01, 2007, 12:50:20 AM
In a very loose sense it smells like the "gay panic defense", that you just can't help your reaction to what you see which we all know is just completley untrue.

What do you mean by that statement? That you can help noticing whether someone's tall or not? Fat or not?
How exactly? Do a chant in your head 'this 7' tall person is not tall, they are short, not tall , short, not tall, short'?
See, when you ascribe that to other obvious physical characteristics, it seems absurd, doesn't it?

Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 05:58:51 PM
It IS automatic though. Involuntary response. You see someone, you assess them, and not just in gender either.
Can you not tell whether someone is black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, automatically when you see them?
Gender is no different. We have eyes - it IS automatic.

Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 06:34:30 PM
What do you mean by that statement? That you can help noticing whether someone's tall or not? Fat or not?
How exactly? Do a chant in your head 'this 7' tall person is not tall, they are short, not tall , short, not tall, short'?
See, when you ascribe that to other obvious physical characteristics, it seems absurd, doesn't it?

Well,  first off,  how can 'gender' be automatic to begin with when you can only see the physical. I would think that just about anyone here would agree that gender is much much more than just what you see 'automatically'.

As for your example of height and such,  all of those are completely relative.  If you're 6' 9" that 7' person doesn't seem so tall anymore.  If you're treating people differently because of how tall they are or how much they weigh i think there would be quite a bit larger of a problem there to begin with.  ( pun not intended )

Well, technically you don't assess someone on gender identity since gender identity and sex are equivelant in socio-typical perception. In many cases gender, is therefore, invisible when not apparent in gender expression and behaviour in which the first-mentioned is the most prominent (behaviour becomes invisible if not corresponding with expression).

While gender as sex is examined according to preset images, height and weight are determined according in relation to ourselves: someone who is 5'2 may find someone slightly taller as them as to be of average length while an individual around six feet may be considered tall -- in relation to self principle.

And that's all I got to say on the subject so have phun ;)

Quote from: Jaycie on September 01, 2007, 06:51:21 PM

Well,  first off,  how can 'gender' be automatic to begin with when you can only see the physical. I would think that just about anyone here would agree that gender is much much more than just what you see 'automatically'.

True Jaycie, but we are not mind-readers.  Gender is psychological; IOW you can't see it.  When you meet someone for the very first time, you  go by what they look like.  Are they presenting as male or female?  this is how we (people) determine gender at first;  The initial reaction is automatic.

Afterwards, when you get to know the person (and assuming they tell you their gender issues), then you can call them whatever they wish to be called.  My two cents.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Jaycie on September 01, 2007, 06:51:21 PM

Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 05:58:51 PM
It IS automatic though. Involuntary response. You see someone, you assess them, and not just in gender either.
Can you not tell whether someone is black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, automatically when you see them?
Gender is no different. We have eyes - it IS automatic.

Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 06:34:30 PM
What do you mean by that statement? That you can help noticing whether someone's tall or not? Fat or not?
How exactly? Do a chant in your head 'this 7' tall person is not tall, they are short, not tall , short, not tall, short'?
See, when you ascribe that to other obvious physical characteristics, it seems absurd, doesn't it?

Well,  first off,  how can 'gender' be automatic to begin with when you can only see the physical. I would think that just about anyone here would agree that gender is much much more than just what you see 'automatically'.

As for your example of height and such,  all of those are completely relative.  If you're 6' 9" that 7' person doesn't seem so tall anymore.  If you're treating people differently because of how tall they are or how much they weigh i think there would be quite a bit larger of a problem there to begin with.  ( pun not intended )

Well yes, you can not see someone's 'gender', but you can someone's sex - or the sex they most closely resemble anyway.
It's not about treating people differently. It's about noticing that they're tall or not, fat or not.
And yes, just as a 7' person doesn't seem tall to a 6'9 person, some people will pass with some people, but be read by others.

QuoteIt IS automatic though. Involuntary response. You see someone, you assess them, and not just in gender either.
Can you not tell whether someone is black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, automatically when you see them?
Gender is no different. We have eyes - it IS automatic.

Yes, as humans we do naturally see and assess. But we don't see everything. We might recognize male or female external characteristics, but we don't automatically know what gender the person is. Maybe we don't what what sex they are either. What assumptions we make, and our judgment of that person based on our assumptions, is the deeper issue. Generally someone doesn't get bashed because they're short or tall. As gender variant people, how we are seen, and subsequent judgment is a concern for us.

Zythyra

People are mixing two things here.
Even if you do address the person is the correct gender
are their friend, etc. Doesn't mean you will treat them
as you would a GG.

After you know them well and they are your close friend,
maybe this dictinction doesn't matter anymore. But,
initially, there will be an unconscious difference.

That's the reason some people
want to be stealth or stay stealth, because they want to be treated
exactly as females; they don't want a close fac-simile.

Quote from: regina on September 01, 2007, 07:09:48 PM
Anyway, I can see you, and others, seem to feel the very question this thread poses as very reactionary, perhaps threatening and 'old school' while I totally relate to it as the way things really are. It describes so accurately how I've been gendered in the past. We're coming at it from very different experiences and expectations.

ciao,
Gina M.

Agreed. We just don't live in a world with no gender. Instantly categorizing someone as male or female is the most primitive, instinctual, involuntary thing. We blink our eyes without being conscious of it, we breathe without being conscious of the action - same with this. Determining whether one was male or female was essential for our survival as a species. It's ingrained through the countless generations of humankind. You can't turn it off just like that.
Thousands of years from now, humans will still see gender.

QuoteAgreed. We just don't live in a world with no gender. Instantly categorizing someone as male or female is the most primitive, instinctual, involuntary thing. We blink our eyes without being conscious of it, we breathe without being conscious of the action - same with this. Determining whether one was male or female was essential for our survival as a species. It's ingrained through the countless generations of humankind. You can't turn it off just like that.
Thousands of years from now, humans will still see gender.

I don't see it that way, now I might see it that way if I believed that your sex organs determine your gender.  I however thought that most people here agreed that sex != gender, they are two separate issues.  I understand what both Jaycie and no_id are saying and I happen to agree with them.  In a community as small as this I would think there would be more support.  There is already a large group of society as a whole that would love to bring us down, we don't need help from the inside to tear down the protective walls that have been built up over the years.


Ted

Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 07:43:21 PM

People are mixing two things here.
Even if you do address the person is the correct gender
are their friend, etc. Doesn't mean you will treat them
as you would a GG.

Who says?

Quote from: Tedill on September 01, 2007, 08:27:41 PM

I don't see it that way, now I might see it that way if I believed that your sex organs determine your gender.  I however thought that most people here agreed that sex != gender, they are two separate issues.  I understand what both Jaycie and no_id are saying and I happen to agree with them.  In a community as small as this I would think there would be more support.  There is already a large group of society as a whole that would love to bring us down, we don't need help from the inside to tear down the protective walls that have been built up over the years.
Ted

Hi Ted, welcome to Susan's!  why not post an introduction at the following link:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html

so that everyone can get to know you? 

Enjoy your stay!

tink :icon_chick:

Sarah, how can you know?
Once you know someone's not a GG, how can you really say your reactions will exactly be the same. Maybe the difference is subtle or large, but there is probably is a difference; unless the difference passes a threshold, the person in front and even yourself may not see the difference.

Gendering is something that happens from 1 year on, its not fully under our conscious control and reactions to it is also not fully under our control, though for some the resulting reaction may be almost like that to a GG; but that's not the norm, though again that doesn't mean the other person will feel a slight unless they can sense (or care) about the difference.

And again, why is this an issue of "we should support people more"!!! We are talking about an innate reaction and how it influences our unconsious and conscious actions.

How is saying that we will treat a person with respect and as female, but our reactions at least at a unconscious level, will differ from those to a GG, being unsupportive?

Should we become aliens and suppress an autonomous response millions of years in the making!!

Sheeesh. There is such things as reality, even if you are supportive.

Quote from: Tink on August 31, 2007, 11:09:51 PM
Oh no Nero, what are you going to get me into now?  Okay, you want honesty? here it is:

I have had certain experiences in my life pertaining to this.  As you probably know, I have become an internet addict and have been frequenting TS sites in the last year.  Well, I used to be very close to certain people on the web.  They identified themselves as females, expressed themselves as females on their posts but didn't have a picture of themselves posted.

Eventually, these women decided to share their photos with everyone on the board, and needless to say, I was rather surprised to see that their physical characteristics did not match what they had been bragging about for months.

Indeed, like your mom said, they looked like men (and sorry I don't intend to offend anyone with this remark, I am just explaining my experience).  After looking at their photographs, I found it really difficult to relate to them as women/females.  As a matter of fact I felt very awkward just by exchanging some emails with them.  It seemed that the whole enchantment had been broken.  I couldn't see them as before anymore.  I was disappointed with myself because I thought that after SRS, I had grown past that issue, but I hadn't.

I don't know if this helps or if I am making any sense at all, but I certainly understand your mom; it is extremely difficult to relate to someone as female when that someone doesn't look like one.  Again, perhaps I have some insecurity issues I have to work on; who knows; I just didn't feel comfortable looking at their photos and acknowledging they were women like I was.
I hope I haven't offended anyone and if I have, I deeply apologize.

tink :icon_chick:

   I can't see how you could have offended anyone.  I have the same issue.  I have found, however, that if I associate with the person over time, I begin to see them as the person who they really wish to be.  I guess we have a lifetime of expectations, habit, and training to overcome, but I don't believe it is malicious.  Just the fact that we recognize that we have to put some effort into accepting someone who doesn't easily pass probably shows that we are in a learning process of our own.
  The whole trans deal is a learning process from every angle of our existence.  It was actually easier for me to accept the concept of transsexuality than it's been to live my ideal in how we should think about it.


Rebis

Quote from: Tedill on September 01, 2007, 08:27:41 PM

QuoteAgreed. We just don't live in a world with no gender. Instantly categorizing someone as male or female is the most primitive, instinctual, involuntary thing. We blink our eyes without being conscious of it, we breathe without being conscious of the action - same with this. Determining whether one was male or female was essential for our survival as a species. It's ingrained through the countless generations of humankind. You can't turn it off just like that.
Thousands of years from now, humans will still see gender.

I don't see it that way, now I might see it that way if I believed that your sex organs determine your gender.  I however thought that most people here agreed that sex != gender, they are two separate issues.  I understand what both Jaycie and no_id are saying and I happen to agree with them.  In a community as small as this I would think there would be more support.  There is already a large group of society as a whole that would love to bring us down, we don't need help from the inside to tear down the protective walls that have been built up over the years.


Ted

Genitals aren't the only part of it. Unless you live in a nudist colony, you likely don't see the genitalia of everyone you meet. You DO see their face, body type, etc.  Sex does not equal gender. I never said anything of the kind.

Why is it everytime someone here disagrees on something, we hear the 'I expected more support' complaint?
How exactly am I being unsupportive? One of my pet peeves with the trans community is that some are of the opinion that transpeople should be so different from non-trans. As if being trans blinds me from noticing gender?
And if it doesn't, I'm not being true to my community?
I'm really trying to get the gist of what some are saying in this thread. Is the general point that I should be blind?

Quote from: Alison on September 01, 2007, 01:13:41 AM
I try to follow the golden rule.  Treat everyone the way I would want to be treated.

Uh oh.  If I wanted to be treated like a pumpkin, you'd hack me up and display me on your doorstep.  If ever we meet, I'll need to be cautious around you.  ;)   :D

Quote from: Rebis on September 01, 2007, 08:44:55 PM

   I can't see how you could have offended anyone.  I have the same issue.  I have found, however, that if I associate with the person over time, I begin to see them as the person who they really wish to be.  I guess we have a lifetime of expectations, habit, and training to overcome, but I don't believe it is malicious.  Just the fact that we recognize that we have to put some effort into accepting someone who doesn't easily pass probably shows that we are in a learning process of our own.
  The whole trans deal is a learning process from every angle of our existence.  It was actually easier for me to accept the concept of transsexuality than it's been to live my ideal in how we should think about it.


Rebis

Yes Rebis I know, but it would seem that everytime someone has different views about a subject, some people around here take it as insensitiveness, arrogance, hierarchy, elitism, snobbery, and lack of support  ::) ::) ::), and frankly I'm TIRED OF IT, so this is why I usually emphasize that what I say is MY OPINION and NOT A LAW.  Thank you very much.  :P

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 02:27:52 AM
As this is a taboo subject, I going to give my 2 cents worth here and bugger the consequences. ::)

For a start, the main topic questions about the 'unpassables' which in itself I find offensive.  It's sort of like the 'unmentionables.'  As we go along we find people have difficulty in their pronouns, he/she.  O.k, so would you prefer to use 'it'?  Maybe you should ask the 'offending' person if they might prefer that title instead because it's just too hard to remember she/he, especially while looking directly at them dressed in their feminine attire :o.
Also, it doesn't matter how that person expresses their feelings, communicates  in a feminine way etc. they look too male, well that's it then, they're shot!  It's over, they must be ostracised immediately, barred from friendships with others who have a similar past/history.  Perhaps 'real' women would be more forgiving, more tolerant, more engaging.  Yes, I think so....no, I know that to be so.   :)

I had hoped for a more understanding and unprejudice lot of people here, but I see that was too much to ask.  :(

   I didn't think the topic of this thread was that we should ostracize, question, condemn, or judge anyone.  The topic was simply; if someone does not pass (no fault of their own) do any of us here have any trouble  reconciling what we see with what we know of the person?
   I took the premise to be that a person who is familiar with and accepting of transpeople might have a discrepancy between what they know and believe of transpeople and how they interpret a specific transperson's gender if they cannot consciously reconcile the appearance of the person with that individual's preferred gender.

  I hope I wrote that in a way that is understandable.

QuoteAgreed. We just don't live in a world with no gender. Instantly categorizing someone as male or female is the most primitive, instinctual, involuntary thing. We blink our eyes without being conscious of it, we breathe without being conscious of the action - same with this. Determining whether one was male or female was essential for our survival as a species. It's ingrained through the countless generations of humankind. You can't turn it off just like that.

But we can unlearn all of our assumptions about gender (and everything else) that we've been taught since childhood, and keep schlepping around with us, unwilling to let it go for new ideas, even if they're better! Oy, all this baggage is really heavy, I'm tired of it. >:( Imagine if every time we saw someone; male, female or unknown gender, black, white, yellow, brown, young, old, etc... and thought, hmmm, fellow human, and we said hi and smiled :), and treated them all exactly the same. Not treat the male one way and the female another. I know, this probably sounds like utopia, not the real world in which we all live. I want to recreate and redefine our world.

QuoteUh oh.  If I wanted to be treated like a pumpkin, you'd hack me up and display me on your doorstep.  If ever we meet, I'll need to be cautious around you.

Mmmmmm, pumpkin pie, yum  >:D

Zythyra

Quote from: Tink on September 01, 2007, 09:03:11 PM

Quote from: Rebis on September 01, 2007, 08:44:55 PM

   I can't see how you could have offended anyone.  I have the same issue.  I have found, however, that if I associate with the person over time, I begin to see them as the person who they really wish to be.  I guess we have a lifetime of expectations, habit, and training to overcome, but I don't believe it is malicious.  Just the fact that we recognize that we have to put some effort into accepting someone who doesn't easily pass probably shows that we are in a learning process of our own.
  The whole trans deal is a learning process from every angle of our existence.  It was actually easier for me to accept the concept of transsexuality than it's been to live my ideal in how we should think about it.


Rebis

Yes Rebis I know, but it would seem that everytime someone has different views about a subject, some people around here take it as insensitiveness, arrogance, elitism, snobbery, and lack of support  ::) ::) ::), and frankly I'm TIRED OF IT, so this is why I usually emphasize that what I say is MY OPINION and NOT A LAW.  Thank you very much.  :P

tink :icon_chick:

   Oh Tink,  as cute as you are, you are a million times cuter when your tongue is hanging out.   :laugh:

Posted on: September 01, 2007, 09:09:48 PM

---

Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 08:44:54 PM
Should we become aliens and suppress an autonomous response millions of years in the making!!

Sheeesh. There is such things as reality, even if you are supportive.

I take umbrage to this comment.   :P

Sorry Rebis, I didn't want to spring it on you like that, reality is such a bitch to deal with.

Since there is no way to say anything on this subject that will not be seen as [ insert personal judgement of me ] I'll just insert a pen through my skull and leave it at for now  :icon_writers_block:  :-X

Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 09:29:42 PM

Sorry Rebis, I didn't want to spring it on you like that, reality is such a bitch to deal with.

Since there is no way to say anything on this subject that will not be seen as [ insert personal judgement of me ] I'll just insert a pen through my skull and leave it at for now  :icon_writers_block:  :-X

Oh my God!   Now I feel so guilty.   :'(

Maybe we should start passing out blindfolds.

Posted on: September 01, 2007, 10:46:23 PM

---

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting... :-\

Nobody's saying that, hon.

Posted on: September 01, 2007, 10:49:16 PM

---

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 02:27:52 AM
Perhaps 'real' women would be more forgiving, more tolerant, more engaging.  Yes, I think so....no, I know that to be so.   :)

I hope to God you are not referring to my mother... Are you insinuating that 'real' (whatever in hades that means) women would never mess up pronouns? Too many non-trans people villify us, let's not come down on those who accept us, and are doing their best, okay?

Quote from: Ell on September 01, 2007, 10:06:33 PM

Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 07:43:21 PM
People are mixing two things here.
Even if you do address the person is the correct gender
are their friend, etc. Doesn't mean you will treat them
as you would a GG.

no, i'm not mixing it up. what i'm saying is that personality is much more important than gender, especially perceived gender.

i am transitioning not just because my gender doesn't match, but because my personality doesn't match. gender is only one aspect of personality.

they will be treated the same as a GG, or better, depending on their personality. therefore i think i have stayed on topic. just ask Nero.

Well, that's actually true. If a woman who doesn't pass well has a strong female aura, it's impossible for me to say 'he' or 'him'. But it wouldn't be automatic upon first meeting her.
And I can't count the times people's demeanor and expressions have changed towards me after talking with me for a while, like say, an hour. They didn't know they were doing it, but they ceased to see a female.
So that does happen, but it depends on how brightly the person's true gender shines through.
But any unpassable person will be seen as their birth gender until they show themselves not to be - through aura, personality, etc.

This thread has devolved into two sets of people who are incapable of hearing one another. It's no longer a discussion, it's a competition between two frustrated groups who are tired of each other's assumptions.

Gina M.

Quote from: regina on September 01, 2007, 11:24:42 PM
This thread has devolved into two sets of people who are incapable of hearing one another. It's no longer a discussion, it's a competition between two frustrated groups who are tired of each other's assumptions.

Gina M.

True. I also hear a lot of denial and judgment in this thread. I'm a realist. I'm also honest. Brutally, at times.
There's also the undertone of ridiculous expectations of all transpeople. That we should be completely blind to gender. At least that's my interpretation of this thread. Don't know though.
Guess I was absent on the day the 'Acceptable Viewpoints and Opinions for Transpeople' handbook was passed out.

Quote from: y2gender on September 01, 2007, 09:09:19 PM

QuoteAgreed. We just don't live in a world with no gender. Instantly categorizing someone as male or female is the most primitive, instinctual, involuntary thing. We blink our eyes without being conscious of it, we breathe without being conscious of the action - same with this. Determining whether one was male or female was essential for our survival as a species. It's ingrained through the countless generations of humankind. You can't turn it off just like that.

But we can unlearn all of our assumptions about gender (and everything else) that we've been taught since childhood, and keep schlepping around with us, unwilling to let it go for new ideas, even if they're better! Oy, all this baggage is really heavy, I'm tired of it. >:( Imagine if every time we saw someone; male, female or unknown gender, black, white, yellow, brown, young, old, etc... and thought, hmmm, fellow human, and we said hi and smiled :), and treated them all exactly the same. Not treat the male one way and the female another. I know, this probably sounds like utopia, not the real world in which we all live. I want to recreate and redefine our world.

Agreed fully.  That's how I live my life actually.  I used to have more apprehensions, but one time I was telling a friend of mine about why I didn't want to go swimming because I didn't like how I would look in a bathing suit, and she told me that one of these days she'll paint herself all red and run around naked, just to show it doesn't matter to her.  And I was like....that makes a lot of sense.  Why can't I have that same outlook towards people in my interactions.  Why should I prejudge anyone based on any way they look?  So yeah, now for the most part I just take people as people, I don't spend time worrying about passing vs. not passing, and I just do my own thing, and it feels great.

This isn't really an arguement for me.  It's just how I view things for myself.  And obviously the question the way it was asked goes against my own personal views, so I expressed that.  Just as the people who believe some transwomen are too ugly to be seen in public said theirs. :P  It's not a strawman thing.  It's a: There are other ways of thinking thing.  Just because some people lead with their outside perceptions, there are plenty of people in the world, who judge people based on how they are, and try to live with an open heart.

Sarah, I take grave offense at the "Just as the people who believe some transwomen are too ugly to be seen in public said theirs", comment.

That's a strawman + villification + assumed motivation (3 of the basest rhetoric methods) of the person arguing with you, since no such thing was ever said in any way and your putting very ugly motivations into my head. Unless you've got a vulcan mindmeld going on, I think you shouldn't attempt this.

For someone who's soooo open minded, that's pounding very hard on my head for something I never said in any way shape or form. I'd ask to retract but its obvious you don't realize the bile your spewing so what would be the point.

Keira I have no idea what you could possibly think the term "unpassable transmen or transwomen" to mean, or what other outlook it could possibly come from.  Follow the logic of the term.  The goal of all transmen and transwomen is to concievably be treated as the gender that they identify with, right?  The notion of passing or not passing is whether you can fool the populace into thinking you are that gender(which is another problematic issue of the term passing is that by it's very definition it is implying that you are trying to be something which you are not, when the whole thing behind being trans is that you, not that you aren't, yada yada).  So it becomes about outwards appearence and perception.  And it becomes if you don't look like X you can't be treated as X, because if you don't look like X, you can't possibly BE X. 

So then we take that mix.  And we toss in this idea of "unpassable".  Passable is an ability.  Able to pass.  Unpassable means you do not even have the inate ability to pass.  You do not have the inate ability to appear as your target gender.

So now we're taking that.

We take that, and we mash it right into what you said about how it's natural to treat GGs as females, and someone you know as trans based on their appearance(not passing) not as a female.

So if the goal of transitioning is to be treated as your target gender.  And how you are treated is based upon how you look.

Then saying that one treats transgender people differently based on their perceived transgenderness, is tantamount to saying, if you are  not up to snuff appearance wise, then you might as well not even leave your home.  Because appearance dictates treatment.  And if your goal is to be treated as X, then you better make sure you aren't ever seen, because you ma'am or sir are "UNPASSABLE".

It's not strawman.  It's not villification.  It's not even really about you or anyone else.  I'm saying what my personal views are, in reaction to the topic.

But obviously the thread is derogatory in it's very setup to me, so I do feel a certain level of stress in responding to it.  If you're just now taking grave offense to this thread, then welcome to the club, I've been here gravely offended since the first post.

You used the words "ugly", I didn't.
And are not talking at all about what I'm talking = strawman.



Even before the whole conscious being comes to play, there is neuropsychology that comes into play. My best female friend is a PHD in this fascinating field so I know quite a lot about it.

If the person automatically sees the person as the sex they are not, how can it be seen as discriminatory unless what you do with it is discriminatory. This automated placing will be different from person to person obviously, some will really only on the clothes and basic presentation while many others brain is more finely tuned and will be able to see fine distinctions at the unconscious level. Once this automatic gendering was done, the brain will also automatically assign a whole slew of characteristic to that person, its a fact of neuropsychology (since my best female friend is a PHD in this field I know quite a bit about it).

So, even before the conscious mind comes into play, and a single word has been uttered, this is the state of the world.

So, now your asking a person to treat that TS as female even though the autonomous reaction ID'd the TS as male. That has to be done at the conscious level, which introduces a whole new variable into the mix.

Since many reactions to different genders are done without going through the filter of the conscious mind, going through it and possibly reevaluating gendering while talking to that person will skew their reactions to them away from the usual response.

The TS, may not know that the response is not the usual one, maybe everyone's they meet are respectful and that's enough for her; for many TS living in the real world, that's all they initially hope for (including me).

But, if the TS is ID's alternatively female and male, she will sense the difference. I did in the beginning. There is a subtle to not so subtle difference in how people react; though that doesn't mean the reaction when ID'd as male is bad, its just different.

If the person is never treated exactly as a GG because nobody id's them as such and there is a long standing atavic response to gender, should people flagelate themselves for "only" being respectful and while using the correct pronouns and the like, not giving them the full GG treatment when much of this happens at an unconscious level!!!!

What is the full GG treatment?  Like how do you treat people differently based on their gender and whether they are trans or not?  Like what does that entail for you?  I don't really understand what you're saying there I think.  And what you are talking about with regards to neuropsychology seems to be more about a base animalistic thing, which I think is less applicable than you are making it.  It's like we have a base animalistic urge to eat meat, and there is fight/flight responses, and a whole littany of urges.  But I think elevating them to the level of an overriding consciousness is giving them too much credit.  Our minds are way more complex than that.  For me I try to remain mindful that perception doesn't always equal reality.  And therefore I don't let snap urges steer my consciousness.  Whether they are there or not.  One thing I'm working on now is overcoming somewhat the power of labels.  Because labels are just words.  But we give them this binding power which compartmentalize and put into heiarchies things which are just as equal as anything else.  Words are egalitarian, labels are authoritarian.  I feel like there is play in the consciousness for how you cloud the intake of your mind.  I mean even if I'm completely wrong, it's still a lot of fun, and I feel better about myself, the world around me, and my place in it.




And I think you've misinterpreted me posting in a thread that you are posting in, as being in arguement with every single thing you've said.  I've certainly got a viewpoint that is somewhat diametrically opposed to your own, but for the most part I've been more interested in discussing the topic questions and what they mean to me, moreso than wanting to debate on a one on one level people's personal whatevers. 

As far as ugly and where that comes from in this thread.  The notion of unpassable is an aesthetic one, and the connotation is most certainly "ugly".  Maybe that's blunt, but I think it draws a nice parallel to the dynamics of the high school lunch room.  And again, I believe the unpassables arguement is more Neros, and the threads.

Sarah,

You may think neuropsychology is at the animal level, but most of our actions are in fact direct input -> output response through our neural pathways. Its very far from being an animal response since even this instant response can go through complex human assessments, like morality, just not a conscious level.

Its not for nothing that habits are so hard to break and I'm not even talking of something as basic as gender identification and reactions to it, which is imbeded in both static pathways (by how the brain works) and learned ones (neural nets created through a learned response).

Quote from: Keira on September 02, 2007, 06:59:56 AM

Sarah,

You may think neuropsychology is at the animal level, but most of our actions are in fact direct input -> output response through our neural pathways.

Then why are we at exact opposite ends of this discussion?  If it's just input-output, and the stimulus is the same, shouldn't we just be parotting the same music?  Where is the responsibility in your system for treatment?  If you mistreat a woman because you think she is an unpassable transwoman, is that your fault, or are you just chalking it up to nature?  Does that also apply to race?  If you lock your car doors whenever you see a black male, is that racism or just a natural response?

This topic is analogous to pretty/ugly women.

In my office there is a slim, petite and very attractive woman. There is also an overweight, strong personality and slightly-below average looking woman.

The attractive woman gets different/better treatment/respect. In fact, all the other women say that if they were lesbian, she'd be the one they'd sleep with.

There is a similarity between passable and non passable. You can equitably modulate your own feelings, but in general, unpassable females will get the shorter end of the stick as do those people who are:

shorter : less attractive : not of the same race : have poorer language skills : have less money : dress shabbily : overweight : etc.

 In my opinion if the person is doing her best to present as female it easier to accept her as such. The thing that bothers me with many of the people on this forum is their elitism and I'm better then you attitude. Unless a ts  has been raised  from birth as a girl, and has never had tester one poisoning their body, THEY WILL NOT PASS AS FEMALE ALL THE TIME. And if you think you are you are  DELISIONAL.

I think a lot of people here are misidentifying their habits of gendering people as 'automatic' in some sort of 'it is an instinct built-in to the human brain' way. As opposed to 'automatic' as in, 'it is a habit, a firmly established habit.'

The former strikes me as quite arrogant, since it supposes that ones perceptions of somebody else's gender are more rooted in 'reality' than the self-identification that the 'unpassable' transperson is trying to express.

There's also a fair amount of evidence that it is indeed habit. It would appear that there is some instinct to sex people, and it usually fuctions pretty accurately, but this doesn't necessarily have a strong influence on how a person is gendered in eir society. One can find a goodly number of anthropologist's reports about 'primitive' societies with social conventions to accept and include transpeople. They tend to include puzzling-seeming comments from cisgendered members of those societies, saying things like, "The reason that woman is so tall and strong is that she is a male." Yet she is seen as and treated as a woman in every respect. And anybody in the group who says she's not a woman is recognised as being mean, and a bit batty. It seems to me that these reports show that human beings will notice one another's sex, but that they can also develop a habit of gendering people based on cues outside of sex, and they can see those cues as more valid than physical sex.

I have lived most of my life as a transgenderist, and somewhat obsessed with gender and how I and other people assign gender. I tend to look at all kinds of people and wonder what aspects of them make them seem male or female and how those aspects add up. One would think that this mental exercise would make me better at sexing/gendering people, but the actual result is that I am now (compared to other people, and compared to myself when I was in my early teens and ignorant of gender-theory and transgender issues) extremely lousy at gendering people. I determine people's sex and gender more slowly than other people do, I spend more time not knowing (and am comfortable not knowing, though I remember the period when it was disconcerting not to know, and I know that most people are uncomfortable not knowing) what gender somebody is. I am also very easily 'taken in' by people's strong deliberate gender-presentations. A few weeks ago I was at a fair where I saw and spoke briefly with this beautiful goth girl with a gorgeous angular face, and a flowey black-lace dress with a matching parasol. A few hours later I saw her again, from an angle which artlessly displayed her prominant adam's apple and with her makeup and hair mussed from the heat. I thought "Oh! Another TG! No wonder she was so friendly with me!" and was shortly after suprised (and a little dismayed) to discover that my friends had 'clocked' her the first time they saw her, when she was talking to me. I am sure that we saw the same things, but that I now have a habit of attributing more gender-significance to demeanor and clothing than to physical sex-characteristics.

Quote from: Keira on September 01, 2007, 08:44:54 PM
Sarah, how can you know?
Once you know someone's not a GG, how can you really say your reactions will exactly be the same. Maybe the difference is subtle or large, but there is probably is a difference; unless the difference passes a threshold, the person in front and even yourself may not see the difference.

And if the difference is small, that person will only see it if there is some level of intimacy between you.  The stronger the emotional connection, the more the difference will be obvious to them.  Lest you think this is mearly theoretical, I know it from the receiving end.

QuoteThere's also a fair amount of evidence that it is indeed habit. It would appear that there is some instinct to sex people, and it usually fuctions pretty accurately, but this doesn't necessarily have a strong influence on how a person is gendered in eir society. One can find a goodly number of anthropologist's reports about 'primitive' societies with social conventions to accept and include transpeople. They tend to include puzzling-seeming comments from cisgendered members of those societies, saying things like, "The reason that woman is so tall and strong is that she is a male." Yet she is seen as and treated as a woman in every respect. And anybody in the group who says she's not a woman is recognised as being mean, and a bit batty. It seems to me that these reports show that human beings will notice one another's sex, but that they can also develop a habit of gendering people based on cues outside of sex, and they can see those cues as more valid than physical sex.

Yes Doc! Even though we might identify someone's gender or sex as a habit, how we respond or judge is learned, and based on our cultural standards and assumptions. In Will Roscoe's book "The Zuni Man-Woman", when foreigners (whites) asked about We'wha, they were told "he is a woman", or "she is a man". Hir people fully acknowledged hir birth sex as male, and also hir societal gender as female or middle.

Zythyra

Quote from: regina on September 02, 2007, 12:07:46 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 02, 2007, 06:34:43 AM

As far as ugly and where that comes from in this thread.  The notion of unpassable is an aesthetic one, and the connotation is most certainly "ugly".  Maybe that's blunt, but I think it draws a nice parallel to the dynamics of the high school lunch room.  And again, I believe the unpassables arguement is more Neros, and the threads.

I really don't agree with this statement. I don't think passability has anything to do with pretty. There are very pretty boys who transition mtf and still aren't passable as women. There are men who aren't attractive who transition mtf and become not especially attractive there either, but they look like women. This isn't theorhetical, I've know people who fit into both of those categories. There are people who are highly androgynous (which a lot of people find very attractive) but don't look female. They look gorgeously androgynous. NOT the same thing. Some of the most passable transwomen I've seen haven't been what would normally be called attractive. Those two are not analogous.

It's not Pretty equals passable.  It's more Pretty is to ugly, as passable is to unpassable.  They are both aesthetic hierarchies imposed in a high schoolish way to create a "haves" "have nots" kind of thing.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 02, 2007, 06:02:17 PM

Quote from: regina on September 02, 2007, 12:07:46 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 02, 2007, 06:34:43 AM

As far as ugly and where that comes from in this thread.  The notion of unpassable is an aesthetic one, and the connotation is most certainly "ugly".  Maybe that's blunt, but I think it draws a nice parallel to the dynamics of the high school lunch room.  And again, I believe the unpassables arguement is more Neros, and the threads.

I really don't agree with this statement. I don't think passability has anything to do with pretty. There are very pretty boys who transition mtf and still aren't passable as women. There are men who aren't attractive who transition mtf and become not especially attractive there either, but they look like women. This isn't theorhetical, I've know people who fit into both of those categories. There are people who are highly androgynous (which a lot of people find very attractive) but don't look female. They look gorgeously androgynous. NOT the same thing. Some of the most passable transwomen I've seen haven't been what would normally be called attractive. Those two are not analogous.

It's not Pretty equals passable.  It's more Pretty is to ugly, as passable is to unpassable.  They are both aesthetic hierarchies imposed in a high schoolish way to create a "haves" "have nots" kind of thing.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree passable vs unpassable, and pretty vs ugly are analogous.

Quote from: y2gender on September 02, 2007, 05:55:15 PM
Yes Doc! Even though we might identify someone's gender or sex as a habit, how we respond or judge is learned, and based on our cultural standards and assumptions.

Well, I think it is more than habit (a learned thing) that makes us notice sex-characteristics in other humans. But I think it is a habit, and is learned, to decide that sex characteristics make a man a man or a woman a woman. So the Zunis, and other native american groups, and other 'primitive peoples' around the world have these people where everybody knows he's female but he's recognised and accepted as a man. Or vise-versa. The ability of these peoples to determine someone's sex without seeing her naked was there, but they determined a person's gender by other cues. Cultural standards about who men and women are and what they may properly do and what they are supposed to be like existed, too. What wasn't there was a specific cultural standard that says that all female people are women and all male people are men. Modern culture has that standard, and teaches it to us firmly and young, and tends to make us practice it, what with the whole annoying 'cross-dressing as a joke' thing. It is this habit, essentially a habit of declaring a male-bodied person's womanhood invalid or a female-bodied person's manhood invalid, that makes it hard for some people to relate to 'unpassable' transwomen as women. I suspect that this habit also makes us see (or rather attribute more meaning to) physical sex markers more strongly than behavioral ones. But I base that last on my own experience -- I've tried to rid myself of that particular habit and assumption, with the result being that I am touchingly naive and need to see an adam's apple that makes her look like she's got a kneecap in her neck to notice that a goth-girl with a strong feminine presentation is a male, and even after I notice it I still can't think of her as a boy.

Quote from: Doc on September 02, 2007, 06:42:10 PM

Quote from: y2gender on September 02, 2007, 05:55:15 PM
Yes Doc! Even though we might identify someone's gender or sex as a habit, how we respond or judge is learned, and based on our cultural standards and assumptions.

Well, I think it is more than habit (a learned thing) that makes us notice sex-characteristics in other humans. But I think it is a habit, and is learned, to decide that sex characteristics make a man a man or a woman a woman. So the Zunis, and other native american groups, and other 'primitive peoples' around the world have these people where everybody knows he's female but he's recognised and accepted as a man. Or vise-versa. The ability of these peoples to determine someone's sex without seeing her naked was there, but they determined a person's gender by other cues. Cultural standards about who men and women are and what they may properly do and what they are supposed to be like existed, too. What wasn't there was a specific cultural standard that says that all female people are women and all male people are men. Modern culture has that standard, and teaches it to us firmly and young, and tends to make us practice it, what with the whole annoying 'cross-dressing as a joke' thing. It is this habit, essentially a habit of declaring a male-bodied person's womanhood invalid or a female-bodied person's manhood invalid, that makes it hard for some people to relate to 'unpassable' transwomen as women. I suspect that this habit also makes us see (or rather attribute more meaning to) physical sex markers more strongly than behavioral ones. But I base that last on my own experience -- I've tried to rid myself of that particular habit and assumption, with the result being that I am touchingly naive and need to see an adam's apple that makes her look like she's got a kneecap in her neck to notice that a goth-girl with a strong feminine presentation is a male, and even after I notice it I still can't think of her as a boy.

Knowing someone identifies as a woman, and treating them accordingly is not the same thing as meeting a person and having pronoun difficulty.
Once I know someone, I'd be used to the pronouns.

Re: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female? (taboo topic)

I do.  Shall I continue Nero? ;)  Dont want to get the "forcing your opinion" motto.

Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2007, 06:55:06 PM
Knowing someone identifies as a woman, and treating them accordingly is not the same thing as meeting a person and having pronoun difficulty.
Once I know someone, I'd be used to the pronouns.

Once you get it right, you'll have good pronounciation.   :laugh:

:laugh:

Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 09:57:02 PM
Maybe we should start passing out blindfolds.

Posted on: September 01, 2007, 10:46:23 PM

---

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting... :-\

Nobody's saying that, hon.

Posted on: September 01, 2007, 10:49:16 PM

---

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 02:27:52 AM
Perhaps 'real' women would be more forgiving, more tolerant, more engaging.  Yes, I think so....no, I know that to be so.   :)

I hope to God you are not referring to my mother... Are you insinuating that 'real' (whatever in hades that means) women would never mess up pronouns? Too many non-trans people villify us, let's not come down on those who accept us, and are doing their best, okay?

I am not insinuating anything.  What I am saying is that I find this thread offensive, and I was surprised and disappointed that it was brought up.  I live in the real world, I've got a thick-skin to deal with a lot of cr*p, just didn't know I would have to deal with it on here.  I see the villifying going on.  What I was trying to say is that there are some GG's who are more accepting than some trans, and I think that has been made very clear here.  I would not disrespect anyone's mother and I'm sorry if you took it that way.

O.k.  I get the jist that upon meeting someone we try to access them 'automatically' as either male or female.  What has gone asquew is how we continue to associate with the said person.  So we just dismiss someone for not passing, that they were even 'stupid' enough to try?  I can't understand where this is coming from and where it is going??  What will this discussion achieve?  I didn't think we needed convincing, I thought it was society as a whole??   ???

buttercup   :)

Quote from: Diane on September 02, 2007, 09:23:53 AM
In my opinion if the person is doing her best to present as female it easier to accept her as such. The thing that bothers me with many of the people on this forum is their elitism and I'm better then you attitude. Unless a ts  has been raised  from birth as a girl, and has never had tester one poisoning their body, THEY WILL NOT PASS AS FEMALE ALL THE TIME. And if you think you are you are  DELISIONAL.

where i live there are a lot of trans girls who look so great they cannot be read, and lots of them look better than cisgendered girls. some of them have attitudes; some are indifferent; and some of them are really sweet.   

Quote from: Nero on September 02, 2007, 06:55:06 PM
Knowing someone identifies as a woman, and treating them accordingly is not the same thing as meeting a person and having pronoun difficulty.
Once I know someone, I'd be used to the pronouns.

Oh, I don't know the pretty goth girl I keep mentioning. Not even remotely. We exchanged about five words and I got a sultry glance. Because she was wearing a dress and acting like a woman, I thought she was a woman. I still think so, just as strongly, even after seeing obvious male physical characteristics on her. Things like that no longer diminish a woman's womanhood to me.

I could, in fact, be dead wrong about her gender. Maybe she identifies as a man and just happened to feel like cross-dressing that day. Maybe he'd be really pissed off to know that I think of him as a woman. Now that's another story. I'm really tired of people who cross-dress and cross-act and then get angry when people 'incorrectly' call them by the pronouns and titles that go with their dress and demeanor, thus reinforcing the idea that physical sex and gender always match and that cross-dressing is always a joke or a pitiable mistake or a fashion quirk. I'm sure I (and all the 'unpassables' out there) would have an easier time being recognized as ourselves if half the populace hadn't been snarled at some time when they called a butch 'sir' or a glam-rock boy 'miss.'

Quote from: Jeannette on September 02, 2007, 07:00:30 PM
Re: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female? (taboo topic)

I do.  Shall I continue Nero? ;)  Dont want to get the "forcing your opinion" motto.

Be my guest, doll. ;) Don't mind the touchy types. Everyone's opinion deserves to be heard.

Passability is a huge issue in the community, innit?  or am I the only one that thinks so.  (at least here in France it is)  Either one passes or doesn't

I  find it quite a challenge to respond to someone as woman if that person doesnt pass.  It is an involuntary reaction that comes from within.  Dunno how to help it.  Do I do it purposely?  no, it just shows.  Do I feel guilt?  I do.  Nuff said.

Quote from: buttercup on September 02, 2007, 07:12:27 PMI would not disrespect anyone's mother and I'm sorry if you took it that way.

Good to know. :) Just very defensive of her. She's a goddess. Just thought her incident illustrated the difficulties people have when someone looks one way, but is another.

Quote from: buttercup on September 02, 2007, 07:12:27 PMWhat I am saying is that I find this thread offensive, and I was surprised and disappointed that it was brought up. 

Why is it offensive? Why are you suprised that a trans issue was brought up in a trans forum?

Quote from: buttercup on September 02, 2007, 07:12:27 PMI live in the real world, I've got a thick-skin to deal with a lot of cr*p, just didn't know I would have to deal with it on here. 

Nobody's giving anyone any crap here. This is a safe place to discuss issues we face as transpeople - all trans issues, not just the warm, fuzzy ones.

Quote from: buttercup on September 02, 2007, 07:12:27 PM
O.k.  I get the jist that upon meeting someone we try to access them 'automatically' as either male or female.  What has gone asquew is how we continue to associate with the said person.  So we just dismiss someone for not passing, that they were even 'stupid' enough to try?  I can't understand where this is coming from and where it is going??  What will this discussion achieve?  I didn't think we needed convincing, I thought it was society as a whole??   ???

buttercup   :)

As for continuing to associate with an unpassable transperson? After I got to know them, it would depend on personality. If she thinks and acts female (inherently, not artifically), if her reactions to things are female, if it's crystal clear I'm talking with a female, I will see a female.
Now for an unpassable woman, her female aura would have to be stronger to override appearance than if she were passable.

Upon getting to know a passable woman - if her reactions are male, it wouldn't matter if she were indistinguishable from a GG, I would see a male.

Hey, shoot darn,

I'm in a therapy group where 75% of the ladies are non-passable, with a good 50% in the category of no-way in a lifetime will she reach that stage. Most of the ladies have male voices. Some have transitioned and still retain their masculine voice.

It is their voice--mostly--that causes trouble. People are taken aback by their name, or feminine appearance, that doesn't jibe with the voice.

Whilst listening to them explain their experiences, I view them all as women, even the ones people would classify as truckers in a wig and lipstick.. why? because of the personality.

So with first impressions, I'll see them as male. Hearing their voice: male... getting to know them... female.

I think I am fairly open-minded, and to expect people, even us transfolk, to react (initially) to non-passable females as female is very unfair. Put lipstick on George W and what do you see? female? I think not.

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 02, 2007, 08:19:56 PM
I think I have a fairly open-mind, and to expect people, even us transfolk, to react (initially) to non-passable females as female is very unfair. Put lipstick on George W and what do you see? female? I think not.

Can I put the lipstick on his eyeballs?   :)

I might feel skittish at first but after I know the person, I've got no problems seeing them as women.  The opposite is also true.  I've met ppl that pass but afterwards I dont see them as female.  Maybe their manners are notoriously male and so it overides their female presentation.

    You know, it's strange, but I'm beginning to see everybody as everything.  There is almost no difference for me anymore.  Like all the females are half male and all the males are half female unless someone really stands out.
     I'm talking about real life when I'm at work or out at the mall.

I have been thinking on this and no, I do not think there is any problem as long as she behaves like a female.

Fwiw.

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 02, 2007, 08:19:56 PM
Put lipstick on George W and what do you see? female? I think not.

LOL  ;D  Actually I had a video posted about our dearest president dressed in several sexy, feminine clothing and wearing a number of different wigs.  And he DID pass.  The video was eventually removed from youtube, so I had to remove the thread as well.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Rebis on September 02, 2007, 09:52:12 PM

    You know, it's strange, but I'm beginning to see everybody as everything.  There is almost no difference for me anymore.  Like all the females are half male and all the males are half female unless someone really stands out.
     I'm talking about real life when I'm at work or out at the mall.

You would. ;)

Quote from: Raven Kaldera.org.ch
To some it is a rude concept. To some it is a socio-political issue. To the transsexual, it can make the difference between forever being a object or living a comfortable life.  Passing increases survivability and overall happiness for the transsexual. Passing is composed of a physical side and a behavioral side. Earliest possible use of hormones is the best guarantee of physical passability. Unlearning sex roles and expressing natural, inborn gender behavior is the most important part of successful behavioral passing.

I've got nothing else to say.

Quote from: Blanche on September 03, 2007, 04:10:17 AM

Quote from: Raven Kaldera.org.ch
To some it is a rude concept. To some it is a socio-political issue. To the transsexual, it can make the difference between forever being a object or living a comfortable life.  Passing increases survivability and overall happiness for the transsexual. Passing is composed of a physical side and a behavioral side. Earliest possible use of hormones is the best guarantee of physical passability. Unlearning sex roles and expressing natural, inborn gender behavior is the most important part of successful behavioral passing.

I've got nothing else to say.

That's all fine and dandy,  if you're content with the system as it is and all of it's pointless flaws...

i do have trouble with unpassable transwomen, not transwomen i clock, but just the unpassable. i dunno, i TRY not to, but it happens, its visual stimuli and its hard to ignore why my eyes tell me.
if they want to be refered to as a woman, ill try, and thats the best i can offer, im no better than a cisgender person who mistakes pronouns. its notthing to do with gender awareness and 'should know better' to me, a man is a man, and woman, a woman, as far as pronouns go, and its sortof inwired...
R :police:

Quote from: Jaycie on September 03, 2007, 04:12:35 AM
That's all fine and dandy,  if you're content with the system as it is and all of it's pointless flaws...

I think that a transsexual would be happy with the system as it is and all of it's pointless flaws.  Now if one is not transsexual and sees oneself as a gender variant, then I surely understand your point.

The name of this thread is: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female?  I think they are referring to MTF transsexuals and not anyone else on the "gender spectrum"

yup, this is a binary gender system question, to be answered from a pov within the binary, if your not within the gender binary, or view gender differently, its not really something you can answer...
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on September 03, 2007, 04:58:11 AM
yup, this is a binary gender system question, to be answered from a pov within the binary, if your not within the gender binary, or view gender differently, its not really something you can answer...
R :police:

That's what I thought.  Thank you kindly for confirming that for me Rachael. ;)

The question was:

QuoteI'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

Nero never said to be answered by transexuals and cisgendered folks only.

I'd like to think anyone with an opinion on the matter can answer.

First off, I'd like to know what is regarded as unpassable.  Overall appearance, voice, physical characteristics, manerisms, attire? ???

someone who desires to pass as female, but is read as male, be it voice, physical, or whatever, example being the steriotyped 'man in a dress' unpassability.
id have no problems refering to a woman with a deep voice or male behavior she to an extent, but its more a visual, ie, LOOKS like a man, or woman, when claiming to be the other leads to trouble.
As a m2f person. I do have trouble, because lets face it, were no better than cis gender people, or worse, its a problem that isnt simply limited by knowlage of gender issues.
if someone doesnt pass to a cisgender person with no trans knowlage, tehy wont pass to a trans person.

admiting you have a problem with this however might lead to ->-bleeped-<-stapo visits in the dead of the night for interogation in the ->-bleeped-<-gulags if you admit to not always having PERFECT pronouns.
YOU ->-bleeped-<-S SHOULD KNOW BETTER DAMN IT!
R :police:

Quote from: Alison on September 03, 2007, 05:17:00 AM
The question was:

QuoteI'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

Nero never said to be answered by transexuals and cisgendered folks only.

I'd like to think anyone with an opinion on the matter can answer.

Possibly so but if one doesnt regard oneself as part of the binary gender system, then those opinions are going to be biased (claiming that passability is not important or part of a "pointless" society) alas the comment:

Quoteif you're content with the system as it is and all of it's pointless flaws...

Pointless flaws?  only someone that doesnt see themselves as male or famale but as "other" would make such an affirmation.

I'm making a quick reply to the question at the beginning and so have not read any of the answers.

(I'm doing this because I am in an internet cafe and so do not have time to read it all. Really I came here to print out CVs - Jobs in London - I am Here.)

But anyway.......

I have moved in with a GG, (no, a natal female, it sounds too much like I am living with a horse).
As I said, 22 years of femalehood is what she's got, but I am finding it very difficult not to think of her as a bloke. Her movements and attitudes and conversation are all quite on the masculine end O'things.

If I can think of them as male, I'm very sure an unpassable T-girl is too.


:icon_cute:

QuotePut lipstick on George W and what do you see? female? I think not.

Oy, that would certainly set the trans movement back a few years  >:D

Z

Nero's original question was specifically about transwomen (then Nero, bless his little heart, added transmen into the mix). The question wasn't about people who view themselves 'gender defiant', genderfluid or genderqueer. A lot of people are adding layers of their own issues and pain to the question, issues that have more to do with people who don't want a gender binary, don't believe in a binary, don't feel a part of the gender binary. Which are all important feelings and things to talk about, but not very much having to do with core of the thread and, as I see it, are mixing up two very different issues.

Nor did Nero's question have to do with 'how the world should be' 'how should one behave towards a transitioner you initially don't connect to as their target gender" or 'what's wrong with doing this or not?' it was was more a survey of how we view people who not seem to us much like their target genders (not a genderqueer ideal society) and how we respond to them as a result. I wish people would respect that instead of highjacking the thread. This is an important question of both transpeople and cisgendered people and I think it's unfortunate it's being watered down (yes, I know that's judgmental, but how I feel) by people who are uncomfortable with its not especially nice but important premise. Moreover, I think there are a LOT of people not being especially honest about their emotions and reactions to people and are filtering them from what they ARE to what they WANT THEM TO BE. I would like to see people be honest about this situation:

You see two people. One is very tall, large boned, broad-shouldered with a strong, powerful bony face, possibly some 5 0'clock shadow, what possibly looks like a wig or not very styled long but thin hair, a very deep loud voice, large, thick hands, and walks with big strides. The other person is much smaller, has hair that looks like you'd see in a women's magazine, has a higher, softer voice, is fine boned, walks with smaller/lighter steps, has no sign of facial hair, face has smaller/more rounded features. So people here are telling me they have zero initial reaction as to the possible gender of each person? If so, I don't buy it. It's in the category of white people who say, "oh, I don't notice a person's race when I meet them, just whether they're a good person or not." Which I also don't believe. Nor do I believe, in this situation, that ANYONE, is really just experiencing inside "oh, these are just two very different looking women!" I do believe that some people are experiencing, "I want to be respectful of the first person's experience of themselves" or "why do I have to put people into categories" but I DON'T believe you're viewing those two people the same or as two different kinds of women (which was the premise of the thread). Don't buy it at all.

No, this is not a nice, supportive thread hand-holding people and making them feel positive about their transitions, it a tough-to-ask question that might make people squirm a bit. Moreover, it has a LOT to do with how MOST cisgendered people view those of us who aren't especially 'passable'. This stuff about transpeople being so much harder on themselves is a copout. It's cisgendered people who pass laws marginalizing us, cisgendered people who might not want their children taught by us and cisgendered people who might not be able to deal with having a relationship with us because that would make them 'gay.' However snotty people get on transforums, it's nothing compared to how the cisgendered world deals with those it can't easily absorb.

ciao,
Gina M.

Thanks for translating, Gina. I've been trying to find a way to say exactly that.

Just as binary people should respect the fact that non-binary people don't share their outlook, non-binaries should afford us the same respect.
When I start a topic, I'm looking for diversity and a wide variety of opinions from members all over the spectrum.
None of my topics are gender or binary exclusive.
That said, there's a difference between sharing your thoughts and experiences and chastising those who don't share your personal philosophy of life.
This thread is divided between realists and idealists. Proselytizing on how 'the world should be' or how 'anybody who sees gender cues is a bigot' is way beyond the scope of this thread.

Quote from: regina on September 03, 2007, 10:45:20 AM
Nero's original question was specifically about transwomen (then Nero, bless his little heart, added transmen into the mix). The question wasn't about people who view themselves 'gender defiant', genderfluid or genderqueer. A lot of people are adding layers of their own issues and pain to the question, issues that have more to do with people who don't want a gender binary, don't believe in a binary, don't feel a part of the gender binary. Which are all important feelings and things to talk about, but not very much having to do with core of the thread and, as I see it, are mixing up two very different issues.

Nor did Nero's question have to do with 'how the world should be' 'how should one behave towards a transitioner you initially don't connect to as their target gender" or 'what's wrong with doing this or not?' it was was more a survey of how we view people who not seem to us much like their target genders (not a genderqueer ideal society) and how we respond to them as a result. I wish people would respect that instead of highjacking the thread. This is an important question of both transpeople and cisgendered people and I think it's unfortunate it's being watered down (yes, I know that's judgmental, but how I feel) by people who are uncomfortable with its not especially nice but important premise. Moreover, I think there are a LOT of people not being especially honest about their emotions and reactions to people and are filtering them from what they ARE to what they WANT THEM TO BE. I would like to see people be honest about this situation:

You see two people. One is very tall, large boned, broad-shouldered with a strong, powerful bony face, possibly some 5 0'clock shadow, what possibly looks like a wig or not very styled long but thin hair, a very deep loud voice, large, thick hands, and walks with big strides. The other person is much smaller, has hair that looks like you'd see in a women's magazine, has a higher, softer voice, is fine boned, walks with smaller/lighter steps, has no sign of facial hair, face has smaller/more rounded features. So people here are telling me they have zero initial reaction as to the possible gender of each person? If so, I don't buy it. It's in the category of white people who say, "oh, I don't notice a person's race when I meet them, just whether they're a good person or not." Which I also don't believe. Nor do I believe, in this situation, that ANYONE, is really just experiencing inside "oh, these are just two very different looking women!" I do believe that some people are experiencing, "I want to be respectful of the first person's experience of themselves" or "why do I have to put people into categories" but I DON'T believe you're viewing those two people the same or as two different kinds of women (which was the premise of the thread). Don't buy it at all.

No, this is not a nice, supportive thread hand-holding people and making them feel positive about their transitions, it a tough-to-ask question that might make people squirm a bit. Moreover, it has a LOT to do with how MOST cisgendered people view those of us who aren't especially 'passable'. This stuff about transpeople being so much harder on themselves is a copout. It's cisgendered people who pass laws marginalizing us, cisgendered people who might not want their children taught by us and cisgendered people who might not be able to deal with having a relationship with us because that would make them 'gay.' However snotty people get on transforums, it's nothing compared to how the cisgendered world deals with those it can't easily absorb.

ciao,
Gina M.

Posted on: September 03, 2007, 12:28:30 PM

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Quote from: Ell on September 03, 2007, 11:18:07 AM

Quote from: regina on September 03, 2007, 10:45:20 AM
This is an important question

ciao,
Gina M.

is it really that important?
if you ask me, this issue is kicking a dead horse.
in how many threads does it have to be re-hashed?
if it's so important, why hasn't it ever resolved anything
and always ends with people getting angry and someone
saying hurtful things "...full of sound and fury; signifying nothing."

I've never seen this topic discussed here before.

Quote from: regina on September 03, 2007, 10:45:20 AM
Nero's original question was specifically about transwomen (then Nero, bless his little heart, added transmen into the mix). The question wasn't about people who view themselves 'gender defiant', genderfluid or genderqueer. A lot of people are adding layers of their own issues and pain to the question, issues that have more to do with people who don't want a gender binary, don't believe in a binary, don't feel a part of the gender binary. Which are all important feelings and things to talk about, but not very much having to do with core of the thread and, as I see it, are mixing up two very different issues.

Gina,

I think these other layers have been introduced into the discussion because they're an underlying aspect of the question. How we each react to this question is at least partially based on our societal learned attitudes. Although these aren't easy conversations to have, I'm glad that we're all discussing these issues and our feelings about them. If any of us can learn something from these discussions, then they're worth having. If I'm among those who you feel have hijacked the thread, I'm sorry.

Zythyra

Quote from: y2gender on September 03, 2007, 10:13:37 AM

QuotePut lipstick on George W and what do you see? female? I think not.

Oy, that would certainly set the trans movement back a few years  >:D

Z

Does it frighten you to know that he crossdressed in college?  But of course we all know that crossdressing goes away when you get married.  Especially after Repairative Therapy.   :laugh:

QuoteDoes it frighten you to know that he crossdressed in college?  But of course we all know that crossdressing goes away when you get married.  Especially after Repairative Therapy.   

Did he really? Anyway, it wouldn't disturb me if he cross-dressed in college. If he's been through therapy to cure it though, that would worry me since those types are more likely to pass laws against the rest of us being who we are. I believe he already vetoed the hate crimes act and has threatened to veto ENDA if it passes. And who can forget J Edgar Hoover, he certainly didn't do gays or crossdressers any favors.

Zythyra

i regard myself, as female, i AM. end of. i personally dont care about the system, such is life. i just deal with it, like all the other women in the world who wouldnt trade being a woman for anything.
yeah were payed lower,
yeah we get hit on all the time.
yeah life is more dangerous for a female alone.
oh well, put up n shut up as they say up here...
its funny really, these days, it apears its 'weird' to be normal, expecially in this community. if one expresses a desire to be normal, or be like others of the same gender. your told your 'reinforcing steriotypes'
yes, i am a woman, omg im copying 51% of the population
So sue me.
R :police:

Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 10:44:13 PM

Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

No, I do not.

Cindi

QuoteMoreover, it has a LOT to do with how MOST cisgendered people view those of us who aren't especially 'passable'. This stuff about transpeople being so much harder on themselves is a copout. It's cisgendered people who pass laws marginalizing us, cisgendered people who might not want their children taught by us and cisgendered people who might not be able to deal with having a relationship with us because that would make them 'gay.' However snotty people get on transforums, it's nothing compared to how the cisgendered world deals with those it can't easily absorb.

Wow... I've been busy... and I didn't even know it.

Please realize not ALL cisgendered people are out to "get you"  Not even MOST of them are.

SOME cisgendered people are here to SUPPORT you....

Quote from: regina on September 03, 2007, 03:36:33 PM

Quote from: Alison on September 03, 2007, 03:30:51 PM

QuoteIt's cisgendered people who pass laws marginalizing us, cisgendered people who might not want their children taught by us and cisgendered people who might not be able to deal with having a relationship with us because that would make them 'gay.' However snotty people get on transforums, it's nothing compared to how the cisgendered world deals with those it can't easily absorb.

Wow... I've been busy... and I didn't even know it.

Please realize not ALL cisgendered people are out to "get you"

SOME cisgendered people are here to SUPPORT you.

Hun, why don't try reading my post instead of projecting some lame over-generalization onto what I wrote. I didn't write "all cisgendered people are out to get me" I said it is, in fact, cisgendered people, not transpeople who do the most damage in terms of violence, legal strictures and marginalization of transpeople. Last time I looked, there are virtually zero transpeople in the government or in positions of power.  And what I was responding to here is the endless whining many people have on this forum about how mean transpeople are to them and how supportive cisgendered people are.

Gina M.

Regina I did read your post, I edited my post right before you posted to include MOST ...

The thing is?  Why does it matter if these people are cisgendered or transgenderd or other?   Leave it at "people in government pass laws"  etc...

I feel awfully vilified on Susan's sometimes for being cisgendered.

And all I'm trying to do is support.

I think its unfortunate that you feel that opinions that are different from yours "water down" a thread.

I'm locking this topic until further notice....

tink :icon_chick:

Posted on: September 03, 2007, 04:06:21 PM

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This thread is being unlocked.....Please remember the site rules before posting.  Thank you.

SITE RULES (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)

Quote from: Site Rules10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.

15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

tink :icon_chick:

i do belive there is an unfair requirement made to people in this community to somehow know how someone wishest to be treated, and woe betide you if you mess up, you should know better...
and i think cis-gender people are unfairly assumed to be rude, transphobic, and ignorant.
there is more ignorance in this community, id wager.
R :police:

"Re: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female?"

Well yes I do, just as anyone else would.  Lets face it what we see can be totally different from what is actual.  Perception is in the eye of the beholder and there is really nothing that we can do about it.  There is a driver at work who insists on being called "Black Jack" and not seeing this person others would conjure up a mental picture of who this "Black Jack" might look like.  Similarly when we are told that this person is a man or a woman and the picture before us contradicts this, it creates confusion therefore it's understandable that errors will be made.  Much of the time this is unintentional, just human nature kicking in.

Which brings up another point.  I truly feel that it is up to us to prepare ourselves for full time living.  If we don't then we should also be prepared to accept that there are going to be mistakes with pronouns and the like.  Often there has to be compromise with all parties involved and if we are not prepared to do that then failure will not be far behind.

Steph

   I think I'm doing the work in handling my preconceptions and expectations better.  I only met MtF's in the past year when I was going to Boston.  So, even though I'm gender variant myself, I had to work on how I see and think about people in a very new way for me.  I believe it has been one of the greatest experiences of my life in terms of growing as a person.

  I was really worried about messing up, but I think it is because I don't want to hurt someone's feelings by even just appearing to be uncomfortable around them.  As time passes, I think of it less.  I am becoming much more comfortable with seeing people as their target sex even if they fall short of "passing".  I just hope that I never make anyone feel uncomfortable.

  It's strange, but I have a feeling that I've met FtM's off and on over the years, but just didn't know it.  I recently realized that I don't behave one way around females and another way around males, except that maybe around males I won't talk too much.

  This has nothing to do with prejudice.  It's just a learning experience due to the relatively new phenomenon of people actually trying to live their lives honestly and the rest of us being unprepared by our own life experiences.

Just because someone doesn't look like what you would like them to look in that gender, doesn't mean that they are not of that gender. I really don't like it when people pass judgement on others because "they" don't think they look right. What, I'm suppose to go out and get all this surgery, just because I don't look like what others want me to look like. Hmmm, I read about someone in history who thought the whole human race should have blond hair and blue eyes.
Sheila

Quote from: Steph on September 05, 2007, 06:57:05 AM
"Re: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female?"

Well yes I do, just as anyone else would.  Lets face it what we see can be totally different from what is actual.  Perception is in the eye of the beholder and there is really nothing that we can do about it.  There is a driver at work who insists on being called "Black Jack" and not seeing this person others would conjure up a mental picture of who this "Black Jack" might look like.  Similarly when we are told that this person is a man or a woman and the picture before us contradicts this, it creates confusion therefore it's understandable that errors will be made.  Much of the time this is unintentional, just human nature kicking in.

Which brings up another point.  I truly feel that it is up to us to prepare ourselves for full time living.  If we don't then we should also be prepared to accept that there are going to be mistakes with pronouns and the like.  Often there has to be compromise with all parties involved and if we are not prepared to do that then failure will not be far behind.

Steph

I concur totally, Steph :)

tink :icon_chick:

nobody is passing judgement, but one of the first things people do, when meeting someone, is identify if thier male or female, and the conversation goes from there. its human nature. if this doesnt match, its hard to fix, but MOST will try to.
what our eyes tell us is a powerful message, we arnt TRYING to be rude, or judge people, sometimes it just happens, and im sorry for being human if i make mistakes....
R :police:

Quote from: Steph on September 05, 2007, 06:57:05 AM
Which brings up another point.  I truly feel that it is up to us to prepare ourselves for full time living.

Steph

Would you kindly share some of the specifics of what it means to you when you say "prepare ourselves"?

ive never had a pronoun mistake from someone who didnt know me before... anyone ive met since hasnt known about my history it seems...
R :police:

I have to admit that I am one of those people who didn't used to be too accepting of people who looked like men in dresses. I knew someone who transitioned about 15 years ago and I just could not wrap my brain around why someone would want to be a woman so ugly. I made every effort to use the correct pronouns and be friendly. When she hooked with another woman a few years later I did ask her why she bothered. She pointed out that it was not about the sex and I did understand. But I remember, years ago, when Milton Berle wore a dress on early TV it was a joke and we were supposed to laugh and I still had that feeling years later. I tried not to actually laugh but I felt that way.

Fast forward to now: I recently watched TransAmerica. In fact, I watched it a couple of times. A friend of one of the main characters does look like a man in a dress and I thought she was cute! All my prejudice on this subject went out the window. So, I am thinking that anyone's views can change given sufficient provocation.

...why someone would want to be a woman so ugly.

¡Aye Carumba! that's cold... lol.. i've got to use this line in my next trangendered social!

.:~evil grin~:.

Quote from: Ellen Marie on September 05, 2007, 07:56:00 PM

Quote from: Steph on September 05, 2007, 06:57:05 AM
Which brings up another point.  I truly feel that it is up to us to prepare ourselves for full time living.

Steph

Would you kindly share some of the specifics of what it means to you when you say "prepare ourselves"?

My guess would be to do whatever you can to pass as well as possible. Which will differ from person to person. And if you can't or won't do what it takes pass, to be prepared for how society will view you.

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 12:37:15 AM

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Quote from: Sheila on September 05, 2007, 12:09:48 PM
Just because someone doesn't look like what you would like them to look in that gender, doesn't mean that they are not of that gender. I really don't like it when people pass judgement on others because "they" don't think they look right. What, I'm suppose to go out and get all this surgery, just because I don't look like what others want me to look like. Hmmm, I read about someone in history who thought the whole human race should have blond hair and blue eyes.
Sheila

That's a bit harsh. It's not about what we would WANT people to look like; last I checked, this was not a dating thread.
It's not even about looking like the average man or woman.
Men can still have feminine features and women masculine features and STILL look their gender.
It's about fitting into the male or female range looks-wise.

:icon_flower:Aloha all, lots of feelings in here.
  11:00pm, Hawaii. Nero you hit it were it`s been hurting and keeping me awake all week/ month/ year, no wait, life. Did you see Carrie? " There all going to laugh at you," I hope one day I can silance that seen in my head.

    When I have come in contact in the past I have noticed I am talking to a woman and wondered if I was like them (denial for safety) I worry heavaly all the time how I`m going to be treated when I am only trying to be a good parent and wife. For me really I cannot live on not seeing myself and not being seen as myself. When I see myself you all will to on here till then I am her in my avitar,
  I am the dalphin playing like a child in the pool
  I am one with the ocean/ water and it`s life
  I am Manu, the shark preying on Mahi mahi
  I am The water and it`s rain making the soothing music to calm life
  I am the air wanting to fly free and circulate the earth
  I am Striving to be what is free

   I think my transition is feuled by how society treats me as a man everytime, everyday, everwere. I am too tired too give it back. I just act as I feel in order to get through my work day and ignore the comments the best I can. It was great when I was young they really thought I was a pretty girl. I remember strangers asking, "why do you cut her hair?" questions. Mom, "He`s a boy"  stranger," he`s too pretty to be a boy". LOL

  I could go on too far but I am mostly into the edjucation I can get in my evenings here. You are all so wonderful,  Mahalo and Aloha ( Thank you, I love you all)  Ang.

nero raises a sensible point, what about those who _choose_ not to pass, yet demand to be treated and refered to as female only.... ?
R :police:

One of these days people are going to figure out you can't "demand" acceptance, you can only request it. Acceptance by its nature is not something you can force from others, otherwise thats not really acceptance, its Subservience through force.

The lines are getting quite blurred.

M&M

One of these days people are going to learn that acceptance is a lot easier than they make it out to be.

yeah, most people dont even know trans exists, nevermind have an opinion.
R :police:

Yes, I'll be honest, I do.  I'll admit that it should not be this way and that I'm getting better, but I have a ways to go.  I do think that seeing an "unpassable" woman brings out our own insecurities about how we look.  And it also gives us a chance to look down on someone else, which we also should not do.  But we feel better as long as we are better looking than someone else.  There is no excuse for any of the above.  It's just that we live in a screwed up world, and if we are honest with ourselves, we participate willingly in its craziness.  One day we will all just be people.  When we are totally comfortable with ourselves, we will be totally comfortable with others.  Now that's a dream to aspire to.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

nice concept, sadly i doubt it will ever come about.
human nature is a certain way, and no amount of willpower can really change it beyond a point. some things we cant help, some we cant avoid. we can but try...
R :police:

call me elitist, or worried about my own passing, but i really feel uncomfortable around an unpassable transwoman, or trans man. i just hate the social attention thats drawn to a person like that, im very much a creature of the dark...
R :police:

Quotenero raises a sensible point, what about those who _choose_ not to pass, yet demand to be treated and refered to as female only.... ?
R

I think it's acceptable not to want to devote your entire life to "passing" (i.e. acting super-feminine/masculine or going completely stealth). And there are some people who just can't pass. If they demand to be referred to as female or male, we're obligated to. Now, they have no right to get angry if we accidentally refer to them with the wrong pronoun, but we have to try.

A good trans manifesto: remember your early days! Remember when you were just starting to pass -- remember when you were fumbling with bathrooms and pronouns and names! We tend to take passing for granted when we pass well. I pass without question but I remember how hard it was at first, and keep that in mind when I'm around unpassables.

Quote from: almost,angie on September 06, 2007, 04:38:54 AM
:icon_flower:Aloha all, lots of feelings in here.
  11:00pm, Hawaii. Nero you hit it were it`s been hurting and keeping me awake all week/ month/ year, no wait, life. Did you see Carrie? " There all going to laugh at you," I hope one day I can silance that seen in my head.

    When I have come in contact in the past I have noticed I am talking to a woman and wondered if I was like them (denial for safety) I worry heavaly all the time how I`m going to be treated when I am only trying to be a good parent and wife. For me really I cannot live on not seeing myself and not being seen as myself. When I see myself you all will to on here till then I am her in my avitar,
  I am the dalphin playing like a child in the pool
  I am one with the ocean/ water and it`s life
  I am Manu, the shark preying on Mahi mahi
  I am The water and it`s rain making the soothing music to calm life
  I am the air wanting to fly free and circulate the earth
  I am Striving to be what is free

   I think my transition is feuled by how society treats me as a man everytime, everyday, everwere. I am too tired too give it back. I just act as I feel in order to get through my work day and ignore the comments the best I can. It was great when I was young they really thought I was a pretty girl. I remember strangers asking, "why do you cut her hair?" questions. Mom, "He`s a boy"  stranger," he`s too pretty to be a boy". LOL

  I could go on too far but I am mostly into the edjucation I can get in my evenings here. You are all so wonderful,  Mahalo and Aloha ( Thank you, I love you all)  Ang.

Angie, I didn't start this topic to hurt anyone, rather to discuss and explore our own reactions when we encounter someone whose looks don't line up with their gender.

Quote from: Nero on September 07, 2007, 02:20:36 PM

Quote from: almost,angie on September 06, 2007, 04:38:54 AM
:icon_flower:Aloha all, lots of feelings in here.
  11:00pm, Hawaii. Nero you hit it were it`s been hurting and keeping me awake all week/ month/ year, no wait, life. Did you see Carrie? " There all going to laugh at you," I hope one day I can silance that seen in my head.

    When I have come in contact in the past I have noticed I am talking to a woman and wondered if I was like them (denial for safety) I worry heavaly all the time how I`m going to be treated when I am only trying to be a good parent and wife. For me really I cannot live on not seeing myself and not being seen as myself. When I see myself you all will to on here till then I am her in my avitar,
  I am the dalphin playing like a child in the pool
  I am one with the ocean/ water and it`s life
  I am Manu, the shark preying on Mahi mahi
  I am The water and it`s rain making the soothing music to calm life
  I am the air wanting to fly free and circulate the earth
  I am Striving to be what is free

   I think my transition is feuled by how society treats me as a man everytime, everyday, everwere. I am too tired too give it back. I just act as I feel in order to get through my work day and ignore the comments the best I can. It was great when I was young they really thought I was a pretty girl. I remember strangers asking, "why do you cut her hair?" questions. Mom, "He`s a boy"  stranger," he`s too pretty to be a boy". LOL

  I could go on too far but I am mostly into the edjucation I can get in my evenings here. You are all so wonderful,  Mahalo and Aloha ( Thank you, I love you all)  Ang.

Angie, I didn't start this topic to hurt anyone, rather to discuss and explore our own reactions when we encounter someone whose looks don't line up with their gender.

   Oh, I`m very glad to have this topic to read. This is the reason I held out so long living off Will Power and denial for survival. Even the jokes and bigotries I have notice in the Oh So Acceptant "Punk Seen". Misunderstanding is all around us.  This topic is helping me not hurting me so thankyou. I feel more like after FFS I have attitude, speach, and basically being true and real with myself to rely on. The persentage of people who notice will drop more and more. 
   I want to say thank you all for being here. Love Angie,

Doesn't anybody?  it is tricky to consider something green when it looks like red.  Steph pointed it out quite well.

Its not just using the correct pronoun on someone unpassable who's presenting as female, is easy, its acting exactly the same as one would at an conscious and even unconscious level, as would to a GG that's hard.

And if your able to control your unconscious reactions to an million year old autonomous gendering action, well good for you, but I somehow doubt it...

Quote from: Keira on September 07, 2007, 08:40:52 PM

And if your able to control your unconscious reactions to an million year old autonomous gendering action, well good for you, but I somehow doubt it...

Just imagine, imagine, imagine and anything is possible!  ;) ;D >:D

tink :icon_chick:

Kristi wrote, "we feel better as long as we are better looking than someone else."

Young genetic females can be happier when they feel they "are better looking than someone else."

It's taboo and politically incorrect, but it's human.  It's science.

Teri Anne

P.S. - Before this post, I hadn't realized that "gender" could be a verb, as in "gender" someone.  I suppose, like with beauty, it's an automatic judgement that happens in a flash of a second.  Because I think, like some have expressed, that there is a gender continuum rather than two hard sides, I long for the day when we accept variables, diversity.  A teenage boy with delicate streaks of purple running through his hair?  Sometimes it can be cute.

That we accept the delicate boy has nothing to do with gendering him, or accepting or being his friend, or anything really, your just not going to treat him as a GG.

That's not a bad thing per say, just different. But, it does expose the insecurities of many TS thus the knee jerk reaction.

Quote from: Keira on September 07, 2007, 08:40:52 PM
Its not just using the correct pronoun on someone unpassable who's presenting as female, is easy, its acting exactly the same as one would at an conscious and even unconscious level, as would to a GG that's hard.

What does that even entail though?  When I'm meeting strangers, my interactions with them, male or female are pretty much the same.  It's Hi, my name is, Hi my name is, handshake or wave, then if there's a reason to talk, then we talk.  But I don't like have a set way of treating either gender to begin with, so I'm not sure where any difference would enter in.  Can you explain how you treat men and women differently in a casual passing them on the street kind of way, and possibly explain why?

Quote from: Andrew on September 07, 2007, 10:58:27 AM

Quotenero raises a sensible point, what about those who _choose_ not to pass, yet demand to be treated and refered to as female only.... ?
R

I think it's acceptable not to want to devote your entire life to "passing" (i.e. acting super-feminine/masculine or going completely stealth). And there are some people who just can't pass. If they demand to be referred to as female or male, we're obligated to. Now, they have no right to get angry if we accidentally refer to them with the wrong pronoun, but we have to try.

A good trans manifesto: remember your early days! Remember when you were just starting to pass -- remember when you were fumbling with bathrooms and pronouns and names! We tend to take passing for granted when we pass well. I pass without question but I remember how hard it was at first, and keep that in mind when I'm around unpassables.

passing isnt about being super masculine or feminine. where the hell are you coming from? were not obligated to anything, we can but try, its not a matter of devoting oneself, passing or atleast makeing a damn good effort shows one wants to be taken as female, dispite some minor issues.
if a bearded biker came up to me in a flowery frock, introduced themselves as sharron, and asked to be treated as female, id try, but id have a bloody hard time...
gender is biological, is that what we claim here? its ingrained, if its so ingrained, its hard to bend without serious consious effort.
whats this about fumbling with pronouns and names yourself? huh? i never did i knew i was a girl, it was very easy to use correct ones. :P plus once im post op and recovered, i dont intend to remember any of this nightmare.
R :police:

Re: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female? (taboo topic?
I do......but it's still difficult to say that as I could fall into that catagory as well.. 

rubish berleigh

i know i shouldn't but i do.  burn me at the stake now please!

Quote from: Rachael on September 08, 2007, 07:55:28 AM
rubbish berleigh

Why do you say that Rachael ?

Quote from: Katia on September 08, 2007, 08:02:29 AM
i know i shouldn't but i do.  burn me at the stake now please!

I think we all do if we're honest...

I have a problem with all of this. You mean to tell me that if a very masculine looking woman (GG) comes walking up to you, you would call her sir? Or vice-versa and very femine looking guy comes up to you, you would maam him? I can understand at some point where people who are not around trans people a lot or they think they are not around trans people making some mistakes like that. For a trans person to make these mistakes is not right. I have only known one person that falls into the catagory that the subject refers to. She wore a beard and dressed in mens clothes and did not try in anyway to be fem in anyway. I have tried to make my brain see that he was a she. I can't, but I will still refer to her as a she.
The subject was asking do we in this group think that unpassables as female, not the general public. Why was this a taboo topic?
In some circles, I could be one of the unpassables, but I go through my day by day routine and told and referred to as female. I'm not very good looking and if my wife ever decides to leave me I will be alone. That is a fact.
Sheila

A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

Quote from: Sheila on September 08, 2007, 09:33:40 PM
I have a problem with all of this. You mean to tell me that if a very masculine looking woman (GG) comes walking up to you, you would call her sir? Or vice-versa and very femine looking guy comes up to you, you would maam him? I can understand at some point where people who are not around trans people a lot or they think they are not around trans people making some mistakes like that. For a trans person to make these mistakes is not right. I have only known one person that falls into the catagory that the subject refers to. She wore a beard and dressed in mens clothes and did not try in anyway to be fem in anyway. I have tried to make my brain see that he was a she. I can't, but I will still refer to her as a she.

That's the point. I would do my best to refer to the proper pronouns, but I'd probably have to keep reminding myself that she's a woman.
That's what people are saying on this thread. I don't imagine any of us are rude enough to deliberately treat an unpassable man or woman as the wrong gender.

Please God, let this thread die.


Amen


Now I can go to bed happy  :)

Quote from: Rebis on September 08, 2007, 10:36:47 PM
Please God, let this thread die.


Amen


Now I can go to bed happy  :)

he won't hear you because he isn' there. ;)  :laugh:

I've waded through may of the posts on this thread, and, honestly, skipped a couple days worth.

I have met a woman in a sundress, with a hairy...I mean VERY hairy chest, and referred to her as ma'am, and she. 

I have met several mildly retarded, mentally challenged (choose what you like) transwomen, who were not aware that they did not 'pass', with eye makeup like Mimi, and bald pates, or bad toupes.  When a number of coworkers pointed them out as objects of ridicule, I called these retarded transwomen, women. 

I've seen poor creatures who were born female, or male, and sadly, with such birth defects, that the only way I could guess their gender was by the way their parents dressed them, and lovingly spooned food into mouths that could hardly function.

I've seen beautiful women, genetic, I suppose, I didn't ask, who had horrible scars that would forever make them less attractive than they were before they encountered whatever misfortune crossed their paths.

I've seen lines of people....just people.  Some ugly, some plain, some cute or handsome, others drop-dead gorgeous.

I've seen transpeople, who before transition, in all liklihood looked fine as the gender they were born into, but less like their desired gender, after long months of transition. 

These transpeople did not transition for you, or me, or anyone else.  They transitioned, like the rest of us to stop their personal pain, and have their minds and bodies match as well as possible.

I find the notion of a scale  'passability' personally repugnant, and chastise myself when I realize I'm being too picky when I'm looking in the mirror myself.

No.  I have no problem viewing and treating any individual as their desired gender, no matter how they look.


Bev

I can't believe the myopic reading on this thread!!!!

Even if we are maming, or whatever the other person, are you in fact treating her in exact same way as you would a GG; treating them EXACTLY the same goes far beyond pronouns and doesn't mean that other way is in any way bad, just different.

I think, this fear of not getting the full GG treatment, even if it may be difficult to tell the difference gets ridiculous in the end.

Quote from: Keira on September 09, 2007, 01:36:39 AM

I can't believe the myopic reading on this thread!!!!

Even if we are maming, or whatever the other person, are you in fact treating her in exact same way as you would a GG; treating them EXACTLY the same goes far beyond pronouns and doesn't mean that other way is in any way bad, just different.

I think, this fear of not getting the full GG treatment, even if it may be difficult to tell the difference gets ridiculous in the end.

Again, I don't know what the full GG treatment entails.  Does it involve a tiarra and cape?  I treat men and women who I don't know the same, as far as I know.  They are all people, they are all just trying to get by.  I don't feel like being a GG or a GM or trans or not trans warrants any special attention from me.  But then, I am incredibly self-absorbed, and really don't pay attention to anyone but myself and friends.

And Beverly, that post was amazing.  Rawk!

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

I disagree with some of your comments, I know a couple of T girls that would never be read in a million years even after close scrutiny. Their appearance, voice, mannerisms are perfect and no different to a Genetic female......they might be the exception to the rule but they certainly exist....

Quote from: Keira on September 09, 2007, 01:36:39 AM

I can't believe the myopic reading on this thread!!!!

are you in fact treating her in exact same way as you would a GG; treating them EXACTLY the same goes far beyond pronouns

The answer, for the myopic, is


YES





Beverly

Quote from: Katia on September 08, 2007, 10:55:36 PM

Quote from: Rebis on September 08, 2007, 10:36:47 PM
Please God, let this thread die.


Amen


Now I can go to bed happy  :)

he won't hear you because he isn' there. ;)  :laugh:

I was addressing you.  You are my Goddess now.  :angel:

Posted on: September 09, 2007, 11:05:05 AM

---

Quote from: Beverly on September 08, 2007, 11:06:10 PM

I find the notion of a scale  'passability' personally repugnant, and chastise myself when I realize I'm being too picky when I'm looking in the mirror myself.

No.  I have no problem viewing and treating any individual as their desired gender, no matter how they look.


Bev

I love you.   :icon_bunch:

Beverly,
  Thank you for putting what I was trying to say in such an eloquent way.
Sheila

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

er?
ya sure? i certainly have a pretty crappy trans radar, nor do i LOOK for transpeople, i dont care...
my apearance is female
my speach and mvoement is female
stealth exists...
i was talking to a trans activist who came to talk to our uni's lgbt about doing a trans awareness talk, and she only read me when i TOLD HER i was trans myself.
if you think you can read any transwoman, guess again, because your missing a number of girls who just are female. unless you have chormasome sensing eyeballs, your missing a lot of people who to you are natal females.
a natal female, is a woman regardless of apearance? well depends really, if they look like a guy, then the same applies.
KNOWING someone is a woman, and treating them like a woman is easy,
KNOWING Someone is a woman, yet they physically look male, weather trans or natal female, is HARD, because the visual signals impare things.
i work with a lesbian whos read as male ALL the time. and she doesnt care, but shes undersranding that her apearance leads to slips.
a trans woman who doesnt pass should EXPECT some slips, thier not on purpose most of the time, and people Do try. its not an easy thing to deal with.
you my friend, hold a very steriotyped negative view of what a transwoman is...
R :police:

your right gina. very correct.
some things we cant be forced to think, we can be but polite and tollerant.
R :police:

I'm so glad that we have some people on here that can police the rest of us. I hope you have guide lines set and you make it perfectly clear who is male and who is female. I for one don't view life in the black and white, I do like the colors of the rainbow. I guess I live in a totally different world, but I like my world a lot better. If I have a hair out of place I guess that will knock me down to trash.
Sorry to be so blunt, but that is my opinion.
Sheila

Quote from: Rebis on September 09, 2007, 11:09:08 AM
I was addressing you.  You are my Goddess now. 

demoness is a better noun >:D

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns. 

Not entirely accurate.  There are GG's like Ann Coulter and Ashley Abbott who have been harrassed by the media for "being" transsexual despite their voice, posture, and attire. (everyone knows they aren't)

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM

Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable. 

Yes, any transsexual man or woman will try their best to undo all characteristics (physical and behavioral) associated with their birth sex.  Most succeed and some don't; however, I disagree with your statement that "something will be noticeable".  This is only true if the transsexual does not pass  or fails to adopt the gender roles related to their target gender.

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement. 

I disagree with this as well.  I don't consider myself a woman who has a "very accurate trans radar" and I live in one of the areas of the world with the most transgender population.  I hardly look at anyone on the street.  In other words I am not obssessed with who is or isn't transsexual anymore.  I guess I am past that phase.

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

Hmmm...I am rather confused with this statement of yours, Fer.  I thought you said you were living your life in stealth.  Did I misunderstand you somehow?  Again, I live in San Francisco, the gay/transgender capital of the world.  I second what another member said here.  If you pass in San Francisco, you will undoubtely pass anywhere else.  Living in stealth doesn't work for anyone, but it is working for me and for many other TS women. :)



tink :icon_chick:

Even in SFO, it depends where you live.
In north beach, telegragh hill or downtown, chinatown (and many similar areas) I never saw any TS that I could recognize (I lived on telegraph hill for 3 years), but in castro, mission or tenderloin, a bit different... I also lived a while in Berkeley and Oakland (6 months) and I didn't recognize much TS there either, though there undoubtably there anyway.

Its all about context.

Many TS in castro where recognizeable not just because of physical appearance, its as if they wanted to be recognized, which is not surprising if you live in that neighborhood.

i think we can say making honest mistakes is not limited to cis-gender people.
although debating this topic in susans IRC last night, i was accused of doing this on purpose to make myself better than these women in question.
R :police:

I'll admit to slipping up on pronouns before, both to friends who I know damn well are male and female respectively. I didn't mean to, it just happened. It can be difficult sometimes to be 100% perfect with someone, especially if they don't pass completely OR you knew them prior to transition. I've had people from my past slip up pronouns (and my name) with me, and I just forgive them and move on. They aren't doing it deliberately, and I think that's where the real problem lies. It's when people are deliberately not respecting your identity that you have every right to be angry about it, whether you pass or not. But a mistake is a mistake, and as long as you recognise the mistake and make a concerted effort to correct it, I don't see the problem. It's sometimes hard initially to see someone as their preferred gender if they don't pass 100% in your eyes, but if you're a good person you'll learn to use the right pronouns and respect their identity.

Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 10:44:13 PM
Good evening guys and dolls.

I know this is a pretty sore topic, but...

Today, my mother had an incident at work.
A woman introduced herself as Ms. So-and-so, and it was very clear she was living as a woman, but her passing quotient was 0%.
Mom understands that mtfs are women and accepts transpeople. But she struggled the whole time to remember she was talking to a woman, not a man, and butchered the pronouns.
When relating this to me, she said that because the woman looked very much like a man, she had a hard time not seeing a man and using female pronouns. But it's not hard when the woman is passable, even if she knows she's trans.

I'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

This topic is not meant to be incendiary, but introspective.
Honesty much preferred.

Nero

Another difficult topic with a fairly straight-forward answer. At least until I add a "but" to it.

I seldom "gender" people on the web. I normally allow them to do that. If certain bells and whistles go off, those are for my edification and not for me to share with the person they went off in response to.

I also make some adjustments in how I deal with people from the "feel" of their posts. The way they appear to think, or do not. I attempt to be open to everyone, but there are people I am more likely to find copacetic to me than are other people.

Does "passing" have anything to do with that?

I don't think so. I have experienced in person what Tink explained back on page one of this thread. The meeting, in my case in the flesh, with people I had formed a web-ideal of in my mind. In a couple of cases I have been shocked. In a couple of others also shocked for different reasons.

I have had interactions at some length with TS people who did not blend for reasons of their own presentation of themselves, their looks, or simply in whom they called themselves in person as opposed to their web-persona, etc.

Nero, when someone does not look the part in person and I gender them the way that I and you and all of us tend to gender people in that unconscious human way we do, I then have to consciously give them the pronouns etc that I do. Just like your mom, I have made slips.

I try to respect the person and use the gender designators they request. But, there have been times that my innate sense of someone overrode my superego sense of that person.

Nichole W.

Quote from: Nichole W. on September 10, 2007, 12:41:15 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 10:44:13 PM
Good evening guys and dolls.

I know this is a pretty sore topic, but...

Today, my mother had an incident at work.
A woman introduced herself as Ms. So-and-so, and it was very clear she was living as a woman, but her passing quotient was 0%.
Mom understands that mtfs are women and accepts transpeople. But she struggled the whole time to remember she was talking to a woman, not a man, and butchered the pronouns.
When relating this to me, she said that because the woman looked very much like a man, she had a hard time not seeing a man and using female pronouns. But it's not hard when the woman is passable, even if she knows she's trans.

I'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

This topic is not meant to be incendiary, but introspective.
Honesty much preferred.

Nero

Another difficult topic with a fairly straight-forward answer. At least until I add a "but" to it.

I seldom "gender" people on the web. I normally allow them to do that. If certain bells and whistles go off, those are for my edification and not for me to share with the person they went off in response to.

I also make some adjustments in how I deal with people from the "feel" of their posts. The way they appear to think, or do not. I attempt to be open to everyone, but there are people I am more likely to find copacetic to me than are other people.

Does "passing" have anything to do with that?

I don't think so. I have experienced in person what Tink explained back on page one of this thread. The meeting, in my case in the flesh, with people I had formed a web-ideal of in my mind. In a couple of cases I have been shocked. In a couple of others also shocked for different reasons.

I have had interactions at some length with TS people who did not blend for reasons of their own presentation of themselves, their looks, or simply in whom they called themselves in person as opposed to their web-persona, etc.

Nero, when someone does not look the part in person and I gender them the way that I and you and all of us tend to gender people in that unconscious human way we do, I then have to consciously give them the pronouns etc that I do. Just like your mom, I have made slips.

I try to respect the person and use the gender designators they request. But, there have been times that my innate sense of someone overrode my superego sense of that person.

Nichole W.

Makes sense. I've had times I had to adjust how I deal with a person, not because of looks like you said, because of behaviour. There are some transmen who I at first expect are like every other man, only to discover that they actually take offense to being related to like a man. These types have the same reaction a woman would have to being related to as a man, except these men are not aware of it. They're not aware they're reacting to being talked to and related to as any other guy. They just know they don't like it. Could be a socialization thing, I don't know.

Quote from: regina on September 09, 2007, 01:54:18 PM
And someone who I perceive as completely female is going to be related to differently than someone I view as 'a male looking person in a dress.'

So do in-between people end up on a sliding scale of how they feel, gender-wise?

Or does simply being able to tell someone is TS ruin the whole thing?

Like what about someone who looks and acts like a genetic female at first blush, but within a few minutes the height, adam's apple, so-so voice, some of her mannerisms, etc. make it obvious the person is TS?

~Kate~

And for what it's worth, whenever I've tried to explain this "passing" obsession to non-TS people, they give me this weird blank stare of incomprehension. I've had the same conversation with six or more people now, one of them a few days ago, which goes something like:

"You look so feminine," they tell me.

"But I won't want to look feminine, I need to look FEMALE... you know, like a normal girl," I complain.

And they just stare at me with this "huh?" expression. Seriously, it's gone almost exactly the same way with a half-dozen people now. I can't figure it out. I try to explain passing to them, but it's like they don't hear me. They don't seem to get it, and I have to wonder if it's that they don't think that way, in those terms of "gendering" people into either/or boxes the way TSs often seem too...

~Kate~

Quote from: regina on September 10, 2007, 04:06:46 PM

Quote from: Kate on September 10, 2007, 03:35:41 PM

So do in-between people end up on a sliding scale of how they feel, gender-wise?

Or does simply being able to tell someone is TS ruin the whole thing?

Like what about someone who looks and acts like a genetic female at first blush, but within a few minutes the height, adam's apple, so-so voice, some of her mannerisms, etc. make it obvious the person is TS?

~Kate~

For me, it's very hard to quantify something that is so much done by instinct, by feeling. I've met transwomen who looked completely like genetic women, but there was something off, maybe the way they communicated, or their voice, I don't honestly know. Sometimes it's not the timbre of the voice, but the way the voice communicates or what the person says that sounds off kilter. But I do know that, afterwards, I had a hard time relating to them as a woman even if I still related to them as a fellow transitioner. Somebody, like myself, who was 'in process.'

I've met several people who, at first, really didn't look at all 'passable' or, in some way, intrinsically female, but as I spoke with them, I could totally understand why they were going in the direction they were. Completely. There was a core, like a raw material, that was present and needed to be molded. And once that happened, this person is really going to seem female to most people. It's not as simple as "well, if you do this and you don't do this then you're going not going to pass." Plus, you're dealing with someone as a whole, an entirety, their inside and outside. Rather than thinking about who totally passes as a 'genetic female' (whatever that looks like) and who doesn't, what I find I feel more often is, "I'm not totally sure I understand why this person needed to transition?" or "Yes, I totally understand why this person needed to transition. It makes complete sense. SHE needs to do it." Not very scientific, nor especially factual, but that's kind of how gendering is to me. A lot of intuition and feeling.

ciao,
Gina M.

That is so true. There are completely passable transmen with whom I must write a note in my head 'Objects strongly to being related to as a man', and some transmen who are clearly men even when unpassable.
The nature of the person can be strong enough to override looks.

Quote from: Kate on September 10, 2007, 04:08:17 PM
"You look so feminine," they tell me.
"But I won't want to look feminine, I need to look FEMALE... you know, like a normal girl," I complain.
~Kate~

Yes, Kate, yes.  Nobody gets that outside of the TS circle, or so it seems.  Even on another site where they are mostly cross dressers, they didn't get this fundamental fact.  It's just so hard when you feel you don't completely pass.  And unfortunately, it makes us more conscious of GGs all around us and more trans-aware...  In short, it messes with your mind.  I think some get more accepting and some go the other way.  They get less accepting.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Something germane to this topic that no one has mentioned yet--

When you have supporters with you who consistently call you "she" and treat you as totally a woman-- that will favorably influence the perceptions of strangers you're meeting for the first time. Friends and allies who support my womanhood in public are so important to me. No woman is an island. We are social beings and our social functioning happens in concert with those around us. Use this to your benefit.

Quote from: Hypatia on September 10, 2007, 10:20:30 PM
Something germane to this topic that no one has mentioned yet--

When you have supporters with you who consistently call you "she" and treat you as totally a woman-- that will favorably influence the perceptions of strangers you're meeting for the first time. Friends and allies who support my womanhood in public are so important to me. No woman is an island. We are social beings and our social functioning happens in concert with those around us. Use this to your benefit.

Great, now I find there is no island of Hypatia.  I'm going to have to scratch that vacation spot off of my list.   Gee whiz.   ::)

....The unpassables could be passables if they were able to access the right surgeons and technicians........

Access to the appropriate doctors is not everything imo.  Lots of dollars, euros, yens, francs are needed to obtain these doctors' services as it is mostly money out of your own pocket.  Horrid, innit?

Quote from: Berliegh on September 11, 2007, 04:51:21 AM
....The unpassables could be passables if they were able to access the right surgeons and technicians........

I'd like to create a world in which passing didn't matter... if someone wants to have SRS, FFS, etc, by all means do it for yourself, but we shouldn't have to do these things just to be able to have a safe place in society.

y2gendrrrrrrr

Quote from: Hypatia on September 10, 2007, 10:20:30 PM
Something germane to this topic that no one has mentioned yet--

When you have supporters with you who consistently call you "she" and treat you as totally a woman-- that will favorably influence the perceptions of strangers you're meeting for the first time. Friends and allies who support my womanhood in public are so important to me. No woman is an island. We are social beings and our social functioning happens in concert with those around us. Use this to your benefit.

Quote from: Berliegh on September 11, 2007, 04:51:21 AM
....The unpassables could be passables if they were able to access the right surgeons and technicians........

The first point is, imo, spot on. The thingy I found that wasn't mentioned by Hypatia is simply that being among those who gender you properly is also a major self-confidence boost in early stages.

I hate to say get rid of people, but if you are constantly around those who belittle your looks and confidence you are gonna have a rough row to hoe. But, at the same time you need some honest commentary as well. Like if your make-up looks silly, etc.

But the building of self-confidence is crucial for any of us, at least I found it so.

Thus, along with the easier to be gendered properly, it becomes easier for you to gender yourself properly as well.

It would be nice if surgery could do the entire job. That way if someone was just wealthy enough they could be gendered however they wish. *sigh*

Sorry, Berleigh. I cannot buy that one. I have known a couple of much wealthier than I women who used all the best surgeons and, quite honestly, I imagine will forever be seen by others as "men in dresses."

Like Nero, my take on them has been that there is too much of the "male life" that they didn't wish to toss on the trash heap. Or couldn't. They just do not ring female, regardless of looks.

Money and surgery cannot, imo, delete certain difficulties that the individual needs to work on herself. The opposite of that has been a few women I have met whose looks were not blended, but then after a bit, it became more than obvious that they were indeed, women.


Nichole
   

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that most of us are not perfect ALL of the time.  I read once that NATURE seemingly ordains that genetic women's voices RISE when they get excited but genetic men's voices LOWER in pitch.  Nature also, of course, lowers genetic men's voices during puberty.

It's been ten years since I transitioned (and seven since my GRS).  Though I have a very passable female voice most of the time I notice that sometimes, when I talk with a group, my learned-inclination to pitch my voice up and soften it can unfortunately go the opposite direction if I'm excited.  My best friend, if she's around, will give me a LOOK and I'll revert to my appropriately female pitch.  Over time, these mistakes occur less and less.  It takes awhile to have NURTURE conquer NATURE.

Because I'm not perfect, I tend to cut other TS's some slack if they're at least trying.

Teri Anne

yeah, dont assume, mine goes up too... i squeek and squeel and make guineapig noises :)
R :police:

This isn't directly about a transwomen so i'll refer to the person as 'he'.

I see this guy around a lot. It took me ages to descide wether he was male or female. At first i thought he was female, although really tall and broadsholdered, because there is something so female there. But physcally i can see this person is male. It's like my eyes recognise that what i'm seeing should register in my brain as male, but he makes me feel like he is female. I have no idea why. I guess the little things like posture, voice, choice of colour and texure for clothes and hair make the difference. There is a very womanly aura around this very many build individual. So i don't think passing is about convincing the other person with looks, it's about making them 'feel' like they are talking to x gender.

Quote from: Berliegh on September 09, 2007, 05:56:39 AM

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

I disagree with some of your comments, I know a couple of T girls that would never be read in a million years even after close scrutiny. Their appearance, voice, mannerisms are perfect and no different to a Genetic female......they might be the exception to the rule but they certainly exist....

Although undubtedly there are  exceptions ---so far   those excpetions exist only on the internet in my  experience- --- that p rove the rule, the conse nsus is among most  longtime TSs is that we can  read each other in a heartbeat.

Quote from: Veronica Secret on September 14, 2007, 12:49:37 PM
Although undubtedly there are  exceptions ---so far   those excpetions exist only on the internet in my  experience- --- that p rove the rule, the conse nsus is among most  longtime TSs is that we can  read each other in a heartbeat.

There's a girl in my support group whom I'd never suspect. Heck, I'd never suspect my own therapist was TS either.

Now that I KNOW they're TS, yes... I can find features here and there which reflect their heritage. But if I didn't know them, and just met them as strangers? Nope, I wouldn't know if I wasn't already looking for it. And they'd give me no reason to go looking.

~Kate~

Quote from: Veronica Secret on September 14, 2007, 12:49:37 PM

Although undubtedly there are  exceptions ---so far   those excpetions exist only on the internet in my  experience- --- that p rove the rule, the conse nsus is among most  longtime TSs is that we can  read each other in a heartbeat.

That is, indeed, the consensus among the long-timers and shorter timers I have met.

To tell the truth, that seems a shame. My guess is that it comes from self-obsession on our own looks, etc.

I know we do so, especially in the early days, but at some point I believe that if I am gonna get along with my life that my obsession with whom I view in the mirror, and with whom I am interacting, even vaguely, in public should really stop if I am to find any sort of satisfaction in my own skin.

I'll be honest. I want to hang out and interact with basically sane and somewhat adjusted people. I am not interested in tying myself in any way to someone who is constantly obsessing about whether or not she or he blends well.

I try not to notice. I would rather interact with those I have commonalities with, who are pretty solidly self-aware and who are not constantly concerned about what strangers see or think.

From experiences I have had, becoming friendly with, knowing, people who obsess about how they look, find it uncomfortable to be themselves and are constantly trying to read their own comfort in the eyes of everyone around them: they do not make good friends and generally will find some way to poison you or anyone else they feel does better or even worse than they do.

That sort of insecurity is, imo, toxic to interact with, and the person's who are in that space should probably be avoided IRL at all costs.

my $0.02

Nichole

Quote from: Veronica Secret on September 14, 2007, 12:49:37 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on September 09, 2007, 05:56:39 AM

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

I disagree with some of your comments, I know a couple of T girls that would never be read in a million years even after close scrutiny. Their appearance, voice, mannerisms are perfect and no different to a Genetic female......they might be the exception to the rule but they certainly exist....

Although undubtedly there are  exceptions ---so far   those excpetions exist only on the internet in my  experience- --- that p rove the rule, the conse nsus is among most  longtime TSs is that we can  read each other in a heartbeat.

i think thats bull...  you may just have a larger exposure and predefined ideas of transexuals. please have a look at some young trans girls sometime, and read them all, because trust me, knowing thier ts, and being able to tell are two different things. hrt can perform magic, and your self inflated ->-bleeped-<-dar ego can be wrong.
R :police:

As Rachael pointed out, once you know someone's TS, they look TS to you. And you see 'masculine' or 'imperfect' features even when everything about them is well within the female range.
Once you know, you automatically see 'clues' (well, her forehead is a little big, she doesn't exactly have an hour glass figure, etc).
If we were told a natal female had a trans past, we'd see 'male' features on her too.
Before talking with other transpeople, I honestly had no idea of the differences between a male and female skull. I'd never even taken note of the fact that men had brow ridges, or a longer space between the nose and lips.
My mother browses this site, aware that we have mtf, ftm and SOs on here. She's curious who's mtf, ftm, or SO and often pegs transwomen here that I personally didn't think passed that well as SOs or ftms.

even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

I'm not sure if you are only joking, but I think it is true to some extent.  I notice masculine things on GGs now that I would never have paid any attention to.  After a while it becomes an obsession and begins to mess with your mind.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated.  what we think aint important. its what they are.  sorry dont wanna look mad but I read stuff like dis all da time now.  we gotta stay together.  there's to much sh#t goin on alredy.  we dont wanna bring it here to.

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

For many years since becoming aware of my own gender variance, I notice a much wider range of gender and expression in other people. It's like my eyes are now open to all the possibilities and I can really see the full continuum. I love it, everyone passes as exactly who they are ;D

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated. 

Right on Chris!

Zythyra

Quote from: Kristi on September 16, 2007, 12:28:57 AM

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

I'm not sure if you are only joking, but I think it is true to some extent.  I notice masculine things on GGs now that I would never have paid any attention to.  After a while it becomes an obsession and begins to mess with your mind.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

I was not joking.  My mind has definitely been messed.  But like Zythyra said, it's become beautiful, like crossing one of those barrier things that Jonathan Livingston Seagull had to pass through.

Quote from: Kristi on September 16, 2007, 12:28:57 AM
I'm not sure if you are only joking, but I think it is true to some extent.  I notice masculine things on GGs now that I would never have paid any attention to.  After a while it becomes an obsession and begins to mess with your mind.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Ha Ha! i'm glad you said that. conversely, sometimes i'll be checking out guys' faces, & thinking, "you wouldn't have much trouble passing (as a woman) at all..."

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

*ROFL*  I have been passing gg's on my way into the ladies room, and find many of questionable gender.  Brow bossing!  ugh!...But, looking at a very pretty gg girl I work with, I notice she has huge brow ridges.    She could use a little ffs to appear MORE female, if that were possible.  NOT.  And then, there is the one with the obviously male-ish hairline.  Ick!  Maybe I should tell her if she wanted to look more female, well.....LOL....maybe she would tell me to ....ummmm.......and then there is the little *sigh....gimmie a word* I work with, unquestionably gg, but if you listen to her with your eyes closed....yup....guy voice,pitch, resonnance, patterns, vocabulary.....all male.  Maybe I should point that out to her, so she could be more female (even though she is *#$%&@#$!*).

Anyway, like gender identity (yes, I'm going to suggest more than the beloved 2 genders), like orientation, like looks, good and bad, you find diversity.  THANK GOD!  You look at a perfect bouquet of flowers, all perfect.  Yet.....maybe the saturation of the color of one or more could be deeper, so they would be more .....'naturally' beautiful.  And upon closer inspection, it's a pity that several petals appear 'different' on one or more flowers.  Maybe we should do something to make them more....perfect.

All of nature is diverse, by design (or for other points of view, by accident, though beneficial). 
If it were not for that diversity, we would be extinct.  Diversity is inescapable.  All the universe is diverse by design (or by beneficial accident, if that's your preference).  Every particle, every wave, every everything is diverse.

The tough part we, as TS or Androgyne are dealing with on a daily basis that the cisgendered don't even have to think about, are different-gendered brains. Brains that aren't projected properly to others by our birth bodies.  So, we do all we can to make them congruent, by hook, or by crook.  Some of us excell at doing this, partly by genetic inheritance.  Sooo....don't be too proud of your beauty, as though it were earned.......it was an accident, or a gift if you will.  And.....don't be too hard on yourself for your lack of beauty.  Again, not a lack of determination on your part, but genetics.  (okay, I know some have had ffs)

I have very mild brow bossing, and it used to bother me, until I looked at all my genetic female friends, and found only one that did not.  My hairline is way to high, in my mnd, and I wish I could afford microtransplants and a scalp advance.....but I can't.  On the other hand, I see gg women every day that would do anything for my pitiful head of hair.  And my voice is deeper than I would like, though I find 3A to be a naturally comfortable pitch for me.....but I still sound like a guy on the phone.  Okay, so I have more work to do on my voice, and it takes effort....time and effort.  But then, I think of the gg #%$&@$&! I work with, and I wonder if everyone calls her sir on the phone?  And she keeps it a secret?  Who knows.  Too much obsessing.  We obsess on everything.  Our hair, our face, our breasts, our clothes....my God, now I obsess on my nails!
 
It would be really neato if we could all have discovered early in our lives that we were TS, or Androgyne, and did hrt just before puberty for TS.  But then, it would be a very tough decision for parents to make for their children.  I know, personally.  This is possibly a decision my own child may have to make about one of my grandchildren.  For her, the good part is, she and her children were able to live with me and Marcy during my own transition, and know it's nothing to fear.  Marcy asked my grandson for her purse yesterday, and he said,  "which one?  Your's and Papa's look the same!".  "No, Sweetie, Papa's is smaller".
But then, we don't all have that neato opportunity.  I'm just as glad though, for my self.  No, I don't pass as well as I might like, but I do, just the same.  I would be indistinguishable from the general population of gg's had I started hrt pre-puberty.  But I have Marcy, the love of my life.  And my son and daughter, my grandchildren, and my son-in-law.  And it may sound funny, but our little family is a diverse lot.  Again, thank God!

I will not wax poetic, or religious especially, as there is such diversity of spiritual understanding and belief among us all, but I will parphrase a tiny bit of an old literary gift, and say 'Do not worry about earthly things, what you wear, how you look, or for that matter, where your meals will come from, but look to the vast unseen realm to which you are forever connected, along with those you love. That is what matters, this is your treasure.'

Goodnite,
Sleepy Bev






Posted on: September 16, 2007, 09:14:49 PM

---

Quote from: y2gender on September 16, 2007, 09:40:46 AM
my eyes are now open to all the possibilities and I can really see the full continuum. I love it, everyone passes as exactly who they are ;D

I love that statement!


Bev,
just passing through

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated.  what we think aint important. its what they are.  sorry dont wanna look mad but I read stuff like dis all da time now.  we gotta stay together.  there's to much sh#t goin on alredy.  we dont wanna bring it here to.

nice sentiment, but the world isnt so simple, like nero said, most people have cross gender associated features, its what makes us unique, but, there is a distinct, looks female, and looks male. and when hit by one, its not a matter of analysing features, or asking them how they want to be treated. If a visible male walked into my bar, and ordered a drink, in jeans and a tee or in a dress, id refer to them as male and say 'sir' if they corrected me, id apologise, and use whatever they wished to the best of my ability, but im not about to refer to every man in a dress as maam just incase... if thier OBVIOUSLY trying to present as female, i give the benefit of the doubt, but im not perfect, and dont claim to be able to have infalible gender skillz...
a world where passing didnt matter would be nice, but its never going to happen kids. get used to this, its going to be around for a long, long time after all of us are pushin up daisys....
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on September 16, 2007, 10:27:54 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated.  what we think aint important. its what they are.  sorry dont wanna look mad but I read stuff like dis all da time now.  we gotta stay together.  there's to much sh#t goin on alredy.  we dont wanna bring it here to.

nice sentiment, but the world isnt so simple, like nero said, most people have cross gender associated features, its what makes us unique, but, there is a distinct, looks female, and looks male. and when hit by one, its not a matter of analysing features, or asking them how they want to be treated. If a visible male walked into my bar, and ordered a drink, in jeans and a tee or in a dress, id refer to them as male and say 'sir' if they corrected me, id apologise, and use whatever they wished to the best of my ability, but im not about to refer to every man in a dress as maam just incase... if thier OBVIOUSLY trying to present as female, i give the benefit of the doubt, but im not perfect, and dont claim to be able to have infalible gender skillz...
a world where passing didnt matter would be nice, but its never going to happen kids. get used to this, its going to be around for a long, long time after all of us are pushin up daisys....
R :police:

Word.

Chris, this isn't about disrespecting a person by not treating them as the gender they want to be treated. The topic is whether or not it's difficult for you to think of an unpassable person as their target gender.
100 something posts in this thread, and peeps are still reading other things into it. :icon_no:
I suspect people would rather turn this into a moral argument than simply answer the topic question. :icon_bored:

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated. 

the title of this thread is: 'Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female?'

if people want me to treat them as cleopatra queen of the nile, i will.  yet, will i see them as cleopatra queen of the nile? that's what, i think, is being discussed here.

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

I read your post Rebis that you said you weren't joking, so I'm sorry, but when I read this first I actually laughed so hard, I haven't had a good laugh in a while so thanks for that.   :laugh:    :laugh:    :laugh:

buttercup :)

Nero,

I agree, its all about how we are somehow
dissing somebody if we don't treat everybody
exactly the same.

Even people that say they treat everybody
the same vary in some way their
interactions to fit the person in front of them
(maybe a lesser adaptation in their case).
This is just part of this adaptation, some
conscious, other unconscious that occur
in our everyday interactions with others.


Different is not the same as lacking respect.

If a guy sees an obvious trans and even if he respects
her does that means he will he flirt with her,
not likely in most
cases (unless he's specifically looking for that).

I routinely get guys to split themselves in half
to open my door (Often very funny).
I somehow doubt that would happen
if I was unpassable. Doesn't mean
they wouldn't be my friend or anything else, it just
changes the interaction for them, just like it
changes the interaction for me.

I'm sorry, my experience leads me to think of this as mostly baloney.

First of all, the unstated fallacy running all through this discussion is that you will get the same predetermined reactions depending on whether you're "passable" or "unpassable." That's what trips my baloney alarm. The world has a wide variety of people with a wide variety of mindsets and perceptions. It isn't all black or white. I get a range of reactions to my femaleness which cannot be all predetermined by my looks.

I'm not the most passable dame in the world, but my feminine nature is so pronounced, that's what most people pick up on. I see this constantly, interacting in public and meeting new people: more than half, I'd say, respond positively to my femaleness in a way that's natural, not forced-- something they sense intuitively. More women than men get it, but lots of men get it too--even guys I knew back when I had a beard and all.

When women meet me, their sense of shared sisterhood kicks in and they speak girl-talk to me as they're used to speaking to other women--it's basically automatic. When gentlemen meet me, their sense of chivalry kicks in. They even kiss me in greeting, which they would never do with another guy. It feels completely natural too, not feigned for the sake of politeness. You can tell the difference.

Then there are the individuals who don't get it, but they're in the minority, in my personal experience. And many other people are neutral--maybe they're the sort who say they don't care about gender one way or the other, they just think of people as individuals. So I just have to say the attitudes expressed in this thread strike me as pretty unrealistic, the assumption that it has to be all one way or all the other. I have a vantage point on this because I look good enough to pass some of the time, but most of the time I probably don't. My experience has shown that looks aren't everything that determines how we present in society. My vibes are distinctly feminine, and that counts for something in the total presentation, as others in this discussion have noted.

Chris is right. Chris, I love what you said and how you said it. You always remind me of what I like about men at their best. :) Blunt, plainspoken, maybe a little gruff, but with profound sympathy for other human beings and a good heart.

Quote from: Hypatia on September 17, 2007, 05:10:38 AM
I'm sorry, my experience leads me to think of this as mostly baloney.

First of all, the unstated fallacy running all through this discussion is that you will get the same predetermined reactions depending on whether you're "passable" or "unpassable." That's what trips my baloney alarm. The world has a wide variety of people with a wide variety of mindsets and perceptions. It isn't all black or white. I get a range of reactions to my femaleness which cannot be all predetermined by my looks.

I'm not the most passable dame in the world, but my feminine nature is so pronounced, that's what most people pick up on. I see this constantly, interacting in public and meeting new people: more than half, I'd say, respond positively to my femaleness in a way that's natural, not forced-- something they sense intuitively. More women than men get it, but lots of men get it too--even guys I knew back when I had a beard and all.

When women meet me, their sense of shared sisterhood kicks in and they speak girl-talk to me as they're used to speaking to other women--it's basically automatic. When gentlemen meet me, their sense of chivalry kicks in. They even kiss me in greeting, which they would never do with another guy. It feels completely natural too, not feigned for the sake of politeness. You can tell the difference.

Then there are the individuals who don't get it, but they're in the minority, in my personal experience. And many other people are neutral--maybe they're the sort who say they don't care about gender one way or the other, they just think of people as individuals. So I just have to say the attitudes expressed in this thread strike me as pretty unrealistic, the assumption that it has to be all one way or all the other. I have a vantage point on this because I look good enough to pass some of the time, but most of the time I probably don't. My experience has shown that looks aren't everything that determines how we present in society. My vibes are distinctly feminine, and that counts for something in the total presentation, as others in this discussion have noted.

Chris is right. Chris, I love what you said and how you said it. You always remind me of what I like about men at their best. :) Blunt, plainspoken, maybe a little gruff, but with profound sympathy for other human beings and a good heart.

The thread discussion and the above are two wholly different things. You're speaking of subconscious reactions. Even though Dr. Phil is a clown, something he always says 'You teach people how to treat you' is true.  People reacted in a subconscious way to me as male, but didn't consciously think, 'That little girl with the blond ponytail is a boy'. But if an unpassable transperson has a particularly strong male or female aura, I'll begin to think of them as the aura they project. If an unpassable transperson doesn't project a clear and distinct aura, then...

Also, this topic concerns how you think and relate to unpassable transpeople 'as a whole'. Of course there will be exceptions - mostly for the reason stated above.

Quote from: Nero on September 17, 2007, 07:52:04 AM

Quote from: Hypatia on September 17, 2007, 05:10:38 AM
I'm sorry, my experience leads me to think of this as mostly baloney.

First of all, the unstated fallacy running all through this discussion is that you will get the same predetermined reactions depending on whether you're "passable" or "unpassable." That's what trips my baloney alarm. The world has a wide variety of people with a wide variety of mindsets and perceptions. It isn't all black or white. I get a range of reactions to my femaleness which cannot be all predetermined by my looks.

I'm not the most passable dame in the world, but my feminine nature is so pronounced, that's what most people pick up on. I see this constantly, interacting in public and meeting new people: more than half, I'd say, respond positively to my femaleness in a way that's natural, not forced-- something they sense intuitively. More women than men get it, but lots of men get it too--even guys I knew back when I had a beard and all.

When women meet me, their sense of shared sisterhood kicks in and they speak girl-talk to me as they're used to speaking to other women--it's basically automatic. When gentlemen meet me, their sense of chivalry kicks in. They even kiss me in greeting, which they would never do with another guy. It feels completely natural too, not feigned for the sake of politeness. You can tell the difference.

Then there are the individuals who don't get it, but they're in the minority, in my personal experience. And many other people are neutral--maybe they're the sort who say they don't care about gender one way or the other, they just think of people as individuals. So I just have to say the attitudes expressed in this thread strike me as pretty unrealistic, the assumption that it has to be all one way or all the other. I have a vantage point on this because I look good enough to pass some of the time, but most of the time I probably don't. My experience has shown that looks aren't everything that determines how we present in society. My vibes are distinctly feminine, and that counts for something in the total presentation, as others in this discussion have noted.

Chris is right. Chris, I love what you said and how you said it. You always remind me of what I like about men at their best. :) Blunt, plainspoken, maybe a little gruff, but with profound sympathy for other human beings and a good heart.

The thread discussion and the above are two wholly different things. You're speaking of subconscious reactions. Even though Dr. Phil is a clown, something he always says 'You teach people how to treat you' is true.  People reacted in a subconscious way to me as male, but didn't consciously think, 'That little girl with the blond ponytail is a boy'. But if an unpassable transperson has a particularly strong male or female aura, I'll begin to think of them as the aura they project. If an unpassable transperson doesn't project a clear and distinct aura, then...

Also, this topic concerns how you think and relate to unpassable transpeople 'as a whole'. Of course there will be exceptions - mostly for the reason stated above.

"Aura" or "vibe" has been much discussed in various Ts forums on the net. The discussions tend to be divisive, but I think there is a lot to be said for the entire notion of "vibe." There are those who are able to "allow" their auras and those who "clog" their auras or who have an aura that is opposite of their "self-defined gender." Not evryone who states they are ftm or mtf can project that.

I suspect that there are two major reasons: 1) so much effort made with an inability to "see" oneself as their target-gender that they get "clogged-up" and are unable to project anything but confusion or their socialized gender. 2) Those who have no inclination or ability to project any gender other than that they were socialized with.

I have to agree with Nero that many seeming material defects can be well-dispersed by a "chiming" effect that can be created by the man or woman who comfortably expresses his or her gender.

Some of that expression may require relearning, but in many cases if there was always a conflict between who one was socialized to be and who one is, then the sloughing off of the socialized mask is often a very natural process and really doesn't take tremendous effort and practice. That mask will quite often fall to pieces over a rather short (year or two at most) for many people: the most conflicted and the young with incomplete socialization.

The difficulty then becomes picking up on regular material cues that all people emit about their socialized gender. That may require a good deal of effort, but, imo, is best accomplished by working with some targeted and symapthetic friends in the target gender since birth.

My experience tells me that working with other TSes is a limiting process in that regard as most TSes have a lot of relearning to do (even young ones) and that someone without the weight of making changes him- or herself is the best teacher. Or just be particularly observant, keep your ears and mind open and much can be learned in that regard as well.

Everyone appears to have a different learning curve. I hate to even breathe a breath of elitism and the following is not to be elitist, merely based on my own observations of the past decade. Not everyone who indicates they are TS appears to be when you are around them. Even the most materially unpassable people sometimes "vibe" in ways that I have been willing to disregard their appearance and regard them as their target gender.

Other really handsome or pretty men and women claim a target gender, look the part, but their interactions with others do not "clinch" the argument in any way at all. Some will argue that "vibe" is unscientific and capricious, but there definitely seems to be something there that cues us to a gender definition of others: and that does not seem to coincide with looks and surgical alterations.

I have to admit that I have and would continue to be friends with people who might look unpassable, but who definitely have the right "vibe."

Nichole

this unpassable person need not even be a flamin transexual!

woman x walks into your fictional shop to buy x kilos  of potatos, and to you, they look like a man, for some unstated reason, in your eyes, they come accross as MAN, you sir them, they get upset and ask you to say 'maam' you realise a mistake, but still doesnt change the fact you saw a man. this is what this is about, not flaming ->-bleeped-<-s or respect.
R :police:

This thread is still going O.O

Quote from: Rachael on September 16, 2007, 10:27:54 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated.  what we think aint important. its what they are.  sorry dont wanna look mad but I read stuff like dis all da time now.  we gotta stay together.  there's to much sh#t goin on alredy.  we dont wanna bring it here to.

nice sentiment, but the world isnt so simple, like nero said, most people have cross gender associated features, its what makes us unique, but, there is a distinct, looks female, and looks male. and when hit by one, its not a matter of analysing features, or asking them how they want to be treated. If a visible male walked into my bar, and ordered a drink, in jeans and a tee or in a dress, id refer to them as male and say 'sir' if they corrected me, id apologise, and use whatever they wished to the best of my ability, but im not about to refer to every man in a dress as maam just incase... if thier OBVIOUSLY trying to present as female, i give the benefit of the doubt, but im not perfect, and dont claim to be able to have infalible gender skillz...
a world where passing didnt matter would be nice, but its never going to happen kids. get used to this, its going to be around for a long, long time after all of us are pushin up daisys....
R :police:

Not only is the world so simple, but so is my mind.

Posted on: September 17, 2007, 07:48:18 PM

---

Quote from: buttercup on September 17, 2007, 01:01:18 AM

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

I read your post Rebis that you said you weren't joking, so I'm sorry, but when I read this first I actually laughed so hard, I haven't had a good laugh in a while so thanks for that.   :laugh:    :laugh:    :laugh:

buttercup :)

It's okay Buttercup, I meant it, but I know it is funny too.  :)

Quote from: Rachael on September 16, 2007, 10:27:54 PM
a world where passing didnt matter would be nice, but its never going to happen kids. get used to this, its going to be around for a long, long time after all of us are pushin up daisys....

Rachael,

I'm 51 years young, and am sometimes amazed at how much change I've seen in recent years regarding attitudes about transgender. If we believe it can happen, and even roll up our sleeves and do some work toward achieving our goals, I truly believe we will see the day where "passing" doesn't matter.

Quote from: Beverly on September 16, 2007, 09:56:20 PM

Quote from: y2gender on September 16, 2007, 09:40:46 AM
my eyes are now open to all the possibilities and I can really see the full continuum. I love it, everyone passes as exactly who they are ;D

I love that statement!

Thanks Bev!

Zythyra

the lines of man and woman wont be dissapearing any time soon, nomatter how accepted transgender is. someone being transexual may be accepted in time, to a comparative level to a natal male or female. but i doubt someone who is male bodied will be accepted as female totally any time soon, or vice versa. call me pesemistic if you want.
R :police:

Whenever I see a bearded MAN wearing a dress and heels, I just have to wonder the size of HER two colonels under that dress. Now that's some guts!

I voiced my opinion on this subject in another post. I think it's time to lock this topic as it's divisive even if it wasn't intended to be.

Quote from: Susan on September 17, 2007, 05:01:42 PM
I find it very offensive when people brag on this site about how well they pass. When you do this you discourage every TS who has not yet reached the point that you have. At some point in time every TS here has likely looked like a guy in a dress, then we also have some people won't ever pass as well as others no matter what they do, and it is a smack in the face to each and every one of them. I want it to stop.