Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I expect people to disagree with me.  Probably vehemently.  Please understand that I'm suggesting this as a self-identified genderqueer person.  Understand that when I say "own", I mean, "take something that people say to cause offense, and wear it as a badge of pride".  And if you're still offended, I'm curious to hear why.

My brother dated an agendered person, and my family (myself included) had some issues with the them/they pronouns.  Skip forward a couple of years, and now I'm identifying as nonbinary.  I never said this to my brother's partner, 'cause obvious reasons, and I'm not in the habit of telling marginalized people how to handle their affairs.  English has a perfectly good neuter pronoun: 'it'.

The term "queer" was super offensive when I grew up.  But we've owned the term, and many of us identify that way.  For some, it's a comfortable umbrella term that works while they're figuring themselves out, and others are just happy to leave it at that.

The pronoun "it" is used for all sorts of gendered stuff.  Power plug?  "it".  Even though it's a female.  Cute puppy? "it".  Baby in appropriately nongendered attire? "Is it a boy or a girl?"  IT!  Why can't we talk about people this way?  Bugs me.  We can use "it" to describe anything at all, except a person.  Why?  What a stupid exception!

I say we own it.  But I'm not going to go around saying to use that pronoun just yet.  I hate to think what'll happen if I acclimate some people to using that pronoun, and they try it out when they meet another trans person.  So I'd like to hear from the offended.  Everybody, really.  But I tend to learn more from people who disagree with me.

i'm confused here. simplify please lol. sry, adhd so i got lost lol

"It" has a long history of being used to dehumanize all sorts of people which would make it a hard sell. Also, most reclaimed words are descriptive of a particular group of people. They serve no purpose other than to describe that group. Even if you can reclaim the word as applied to non-binary people "it" will still be used to refer to all the other things it's used for now. This will generate associations many of which will be unfortunate. Imagine how hard it would have been for gays to reclaim the words "->-bleeped-<-" and "->-bleeped-<-got" if they still had the alternate meanings of an underclassman indentured for the school year to an upperclassman, and thus a servant or underling and a piece of wood meant to be burned. "It" is such a basic word that the implications are limitless and can't ever all be snuffed out without a new word to take it's place. This isn't to say it can't be done, but that a new word, or using a pronoun such as "one" might be easier.

Agree with Dee, "it" can be very pointed and dehumanising when used in relation to humans and any living entity come to that...

Yes over the years many derogatory words have been defined and used collectively... But "it" is IMHO the worst because its suggesting that the person or animal (pet for example) defies any recognition or identifiable grouping.  But OK to describe an inane object...

Also agree with the word "one" .... Hmm very royal family'ish, like "ones subjects" haa but certainly not offensive

L Katy

Quote from: Echo Alcestis on May 05, 2015, 10:38:45 PM
i'm confused here. simplify please lol. sry, adhd so i got lost lol

"I'm not a  'he'.  I'm not a 'she'.  Call me 'it'."

Discuss.

(also, thank you Dee and Katy for your thoughtful responses... I'll think on them & probably respond with another wall of words in a while)

Look forward...  :P

L (short for love  ;) )Katy  :-*

Sparrow, you definitely raise a valid question and I think the answer roots back in the fact we live in a binary society. We always feel the need for everything to fit in one pot or another. Is it in or or out. Over or under. I think you get the idea. Changing to a single word or words that doesn't fall into those boxes tends to throw us off. I agree we should be able to use it. Would I ever use the word it to define myself, probably not, but I can see how others would feel it more closely defines who they are than one of the binary options available which makes it appropriate in those cases. Hugs
Mariah

"it" has too much of a nasty history and implication that i couldn't use it for anyone as their pronouns. i don't know what i would do if someone close to me wanted me to use those pronouns for them.

i don't see why "they" pronouns aren't a better substitute for a non-gendered person as they don't carry the connotation of being dehumanized or history of use against trans people.

i know people have trouble with consistently using "they" pronouns, but they will have trouble with any pronoun set that isn't "he" or "she". i would think that calling a person "it" consistently, for someone who actually wanted to be respectful, would be even harder than using "they".

i guess also i'd like to remind you that reclaimed slurs (including "queer") are still very contentious in many communities and that a lot of people still don't like using them to refer to themselves or others. honestly i think most people who are comfortable with "queer" are the people who live in areas where it's not commonly used as an insult or weapon. while you might get cis people who don't personally care to refer to you as "it", it's asking a lot of fellow trans people who may have been hurt by people referring to them as "an it" to call you that.

Sorry Sparrow, not in love with the idea. "It" is only used to refer to non-humans.

I get what you're saying, but "it" is used to refer to objects, not people, just as "he" and "she" are used to refer to people, not objects (speaking strictly in the context of English). For myself, I like "they" and am fine with "she" or "he", but "it" would carry the implication that I'm not a person, which is just dehumanizing.

I fully support anyones decision to use pronouns that make them feel comfortable in their own skin. If it is what fits you best, then use it and tell everyone else to take a long walk off a short pier.

And shame on you all for identity policing, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone has to.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on May 06, 2015, 04:40:57 PM
I fully support anyones decision to use pronouns that make them feel comfortable in their own skin. If it is what fits you best, then use it and tell everyone else to take a long walk off a short pier.

And shame on you all for identity policing, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone has to.

While it's not my preference to be called  "it"  I have to agree with this ▲▲▲ 

I'm frequently called things by other members of the transgender community, so I don't see how the hypothetical use of an implied slur by someone outside the transgender community is any more of a big deal?

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Dread_Faery on May 06, 2015, 04:40:57 PM
And shame on you all for identity policing, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone has to.

Whoah, nobody's shaming anybody!  I asked for people's offended reactions!  And what I do as a trans person does reflect on trans people as a whole, intentional or not.  And this is all hypothetical anyway, and it sounds like everybody understands that.

So.  'it' is dehumanizing.  The real question is "why is 'it' dehumanizing?"  And it basically comes down to the binary gender system.  When referring to a particular person, we're need to know that person's gender before referring to them (without linguistic awkwardness).  Our language artificially elevates gender to being the most important thing to know about somebody.  That is something that I truly hate.  This is the real reason I'm interested in this question, I guess.

Also, I don't like they/their because of the plurality thing.  Referring to my brother and his partner was always weird, because 'they' both meant the partner and the couple.

Oops, Devlyn responded before I did -- your profile indicates "F".  I'm not suggesting that anybody use this pronoun to refer to you (except in the case where we currently use they/their, I guess... I guess I've always hated that linguistic hack).   I'm only talking about self-identified genderqueer people.

It's F but I identify as a non-binary transgender person.  I'm a crossdresser/genderfluid/bi-gender/two-spirit type of female looking it!   :laugh:

Hugs, Devlyn

Trying to get "it" to be a socially humanizing word, I guess would probably be a loosing battle for a large portion of society. "It" is the only pronoun for inanimate and non-human objects. The history of the word is at least 4 to 6,000 years old going back as far as the theoretical Proto-Indo-European language. I found something like this progression (h₁)id -> illud -> -i/-it -> hit -> it whether it be proto indo european, latin, gaelic, old english, or current english, "it" however is the oldest gender neutral pronoun.

On a small scale, I could see several people attempting to do so. I'm just not sure about a large scale considering several of the above mentioned options people are already using.

Quote from: sparrow on May 06, 2015, 08:48:18 PM
Whoah, nobody's shaming anybody!  I asked for people's offended reactions!  And what I do as a trans person does reflect on trans people as a whole, intentional or not.  And this is all hypothetical anyway, and it sounds like everybody understands that.

So.  'it' is dehumanizing.  The real question is "why is 'it' dehumanizing?"  And it basically comes down to the binary gender system.  When referring to a particular person, we're need to know that person's gender before referring to them (without linguistic awkwardness).  Our language artificially elevates gender to being the most important thing to know about somebody.  That is something that I truly hate.  This is the real reason I'm interested in this question, I guess.

Also, I don't like they/their because of the plurality thing.  Referring to my brother and his partner was always weird, because 'they' both meant the partner and the couple.

Oops, Devlyn responded before I did -- your profile indicates "F".  I'm not suggesting that anybody use this pronoun to refer to you (except in the case where we currently use they/their, I guess... I guess I've always hated that linguistic hack).   I'm only talking about self-identified genderqueer people.

Wasn't really directed at you, it's just sad to see people shaming other people's choices based on their preconceptions. You'd think the trans community would be open to respecting peoples choices, but cissexist heteronormmitvity and the binary are things people just don't want to let go of.

'It' just feels like an object to me. And no offense to those that identify with being objects, but you don't need to respect objects, so I'd feel like I don't respect myself it I'd settle with 'it'. I'm a person, and moreso than that.

I would be ok with a new invented gender-neutral pronoun (that refers to a person without needing to imply gender), if there aren't any good ones out there. I 'prefer' she over he, so I could at least put that out there, but I'm not going to be militant about any of that, because I'd have to waste so much energy on 'correcting' others.
Well, maybe that'll change some day, if I find a better way to go about things. But yeah.

It's strange identifying as 'queer', when I've only seen it used as an insult. To me it's kind of like calling someone a sissy. But.. in a way, isn't it a complement if I like those things? depends on the situation I guess..

8)

Hun if you like "it" I don't see any problem with u using it. I know someone that prefers it. But as a group I don't know if other people are going to accept it. It's often considered dehumanizing to be called and it. Because we refer to objects as it. That being said if it's what you like to use, use it.

I just thought, since I consider myself also pangendered and, in a sense, multi-faceted, it would kind of also make sense for 'they' to be appropriate. Not sure tho, will have to think..

I just looked at esperanto to see if the pronouns were gender-neutral, but they're not. though 'ili' means they, but since it doesn't sounds like 'they' to me, maybe I could start using it :P
(and 'ilia' is for 'their', simple)

Quote from: Majj Wynn on May 07, 2015, 03:47:07 PM
'It' just feels like an object to me. And no offense to those that identify with being objects, but you don't need to respect objects, so I'd feel like I don't respect myself it I'd settle with 'it'. I'm a person, and moreso than that.

I would be ok with a new invented gender-neutral pronoun (that refers to a person without needing to imply gender), if there aren't any good ones out there. I 'prefer' she over he, so I could at least put that out there, but I'm not going to be militant about any of that, because I'd have to waste so much energy on 'correcting' others.
Well, maybe that'll change some day, if I find a better way to go about things. But yeah.

It's strange identifying as 'queer', when I've only seen it used as an insult. To me it's kind of like calling someone a sissy. But.. in a way, isn't it a complement if I like those things? depends on the situation I guess..

8)

guess im sissy then but i like being cute.

Quote from: Yenneffer on May 07, 2015, 04:10:31 PM
guess im sissy then but i like being cute.

Nothing wrong with that! :D

-

Regarding the gender-neutral pronoun thing. I was thinking, someday we should have a poll, with all the proposed variations. Wouldn't it be sweet to finally see what people in the community like best? Just a nice idea :)

Quote from: Majj Wynn on May 07, 2015, 04:17:21 PM
Nothing wrong with that! :D

-

Regarding the gender-neutral pronoun thing. I was thinking, someday we should have a poll, with all the proposed variations. Wouldn't it be sweet to finally see what people in the community like best? Just a nice idea :)

hehe yea it would be

Quote from: Majj Wynn on May 07, 2015, 04:17:21 PM
Nothing wrong with that! :D

-

Regarding the gender-neutral pronoun thing. I was thinking, someday we should have a poll, with all the proposed variations. Wouldn't it be sweet to finally see what people in the community like best? Just a nice idea :)

Ouch, that would be a real test of nerves   :laugh:

L Katy

OK, I'll be even more radical. I'd say that what the language needs is a set of genderless pronouns that everyone uses all the time, regardless of whether someone is non-binary. Otherwise non-binary people are always going to be correcting people or headaching about coming up with a presentation that makes it clear to people that neither male nor female pronouns will suit.

I can dig it, Suzi.

I think "it" should really only be applied to yourself, I'd not suggest to try to intergrate it into the general non-binary identity, because for a lot of non-binary people it could even be viewed as a slur.

A couple weeks ago I might not have been sympathetic, but recently my thoughts on everything have really opened up and though I personally wouldn't want to identify as "it," I don't think being referred to by that would bother me.  There's almost something sexy, mysterious, and unfathomable in that someone would, in trying to make sense of things and grasp for a word, but have to grasp for "it." 

I think "it" can come to have an affirming meaning, and this may be one of the healthiest things to do with words of hatred: make them into words of affirmation.

The "big bang" theory was called so actually as a pejorative term by someone who didn't believe in the theory, and now the words are used without question.

"It" could be both powerful and expressing ineffability!

I am in the "label yourself as you like" camp.

It, they, he, she, hir, xie, other, duck, whatever.

I tend to call unidentified/unlabeled/unsure parties by some shortened form of their name.  First three letters usually, until otherwise instructed.

FWIW, one of the presenters at the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference specifically stated preferring to be referred to as "it."  It was a very nice person and was good at organizing the two sessions I saw it at.  Its presentation was decidedly gender-neutral: long hair (pony-tail?), black lipstick, light colored vest with a dark necktie.  The name it went by was about as neutral as you can get: "Null".

+ + +

* Writing the above was hard -- chalk-screeching-on-blackboard hard.  Every time I used the pronoun, I had to force myself, because I felt like I was denying Null's humanity.
* I wonder if it would be a little bit easier if we used the convention of always captializing "It" (or "Its") when the antecedent is a person.

+ + +

This got me to thinking about the whole "preferred pronoun" thing.

Language (well, spoken language) is a way of assigning meanings to sounds so that the person hearing something will understand what the speaker intended them to understand.  The critical thing is that the speaker and the hearer have to agree on what those sounds (words, phrases, etc.) mean.  Not just interms of abstract meaning, but in terms of their social effect.  (Language is at its root a social phenomenon and is fundamentally about regulating social behavior.)

So when someone announces that they wish to be referred to with a particular pronoun - whether "he", "she", "they", "it", or "ze", or whatever, the question is: what does that mean, esp., what does that say about how that someone wishes for us to interact with him/her/it/zer/whatever?

We generally think we know for "he" and "she."  After all, in non-trans society, if someone is called "she" (or has a female-identified name), we assume the person is female, and we have a whole repertoire of behaviors (being a computer person, I call it a "protocol") for interacting with them.  If that someone is called "he", we have a different set of behaviors.  So if someone whose appearance or history would incline us to use "she" to refer to them tells us they prefer "he," we (rightly or wrongly) assume they mean they want us to use the male protocols with them and not the female protocols we would have unthinkingly used if they hadn't said anything.

But if someone says they prefer "they," we don't have a set of protocols for interacting with a specific human of unspecified or neutral gender.  Invented gender-neutral pronouns have the same problem, but add that people have to learn new grammar rules.  This isn't to say that we can't have a generally understood way of interacting with gender neutral humans, but coming up with one and getting it widely accepted is certainly a much bigger project that just asking people to use a different pronoun.

For "it", we do kind of have protocols, but are about treating the antecedent as an object, something with no agency and which we don't listen to.  (Would it occur to us to respect the agency of a doorknob.?)

So when someone (e.g., Null) asks us to refer to him-/her-/their-/zir-/itself as "it", how exactly does It want us to interact with It, and how does it differ from what It would expect if we agreed to use "him" , "her," or "them"?

(Yes, it would have been a good thing to ask them, uh, It, at the conference.  Except that it was a mob scene and I was punch-drunk from 3 days of interacting with thousands of strangers.  And I didn't think of it until now.)

I finally figured out (perhaps) why this is more troubling to others than it is to me!  I was raised in an environment where all things were believed to possess spirit.  Animals, plants, rocks... every thing is a spiritual being.  While I haven't bought into any amount of spirituality for many years, I guess the perspective has stuck with me: people are things, and things are people.

I personally wouldn't like to be called "it", mostly due to the previously mentioned association as a pronoun used for objects and not people. I go with singular they instead. I feel that it has a better chance of acceptance by most people, as singular they is easier to wrap one's tongue around than GN pronouns such as "ze/ze/zem". It's actually gotten to the point where I refer to almost everyone by "they", unless they've stated another preference. It feels more respectful, to me, to avoid gendering a person by their appearance, given that gender expression and gender identity aren't always congruent.

In addition, singular they has been used since at least Shakespeare's time, so it has the weight of several centuries of usage behind it. Sure, it fell out of favour in the nineteenth century, but it's making a comeback. I've noticed (as a *very* general trend) that people seem more inclined to wrap their heads around singular they when you point out its grammatical history - kind of a "well, if it's been around that long, I guess it's fine to use" thing. Part of this, I think, is due to the nature of language - people have less resistance to a word when it arises spontaneously/has a history of being in use, rather than when it is constructed (just look at how popular fully constructed languages aren't).

And yes, while word meanings change over time, that seems to have happened much less with pronouns than with other parts of speech. The only pronoun example I can think of is "you", which used to be the plural second person form back in the Middle Ages ("thou" was the singular second person).

Logically it makes sense. It is nongendered , singular and everyone knows how to use it. Emotionally though... That would hurt.

Side note, referring to it with it is amusing use of English.

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I also almost like it though... I will have to do my own considering......


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'it' derives from the Old English pronoun 'hit', which is etymologically closer to 'he', both in sense and use ('hit' has a more animate connotation) than the contemporary 'it'. Perhaps this would be a good compromise, pseudowning 'it' without activating its (two senses) dehumanizing semantics.

Quote from: katrinaw on May 05, 2015, 11:43:11 PM
Yes over the years many derogatory words have been defined and used collectively... But "it" is IMHO the worst because its suggesting that the person or animal (pet for example) defies any recognition or identifiable grouping.

That's exactly how I feel about myself. I defy any identifiable grouping. Other people may identify me as male or female, because that is what everyone is used to doing. But I have characteristics of both, wholly identifying not as one or the other. Right now I just say queer or questioning because there doesn't seem to be another term for me, that makes sense to me entirely. I don't strictly belong to the 'he' collective, nor do I strictly belong to the 'she' category. If I don't feel like I fit into any existing category, if I defy fitting into any category, why not use 'it'?

If I ask you to refer to me as 'it', then you are respecting me to do so. To do otherwise would be offensive. If you feel like you're disrespecting me by doing what I request, you've got your perspective mixed up.

It's like visiting other cultures. When you visit a foreign country, you are expected to act by their customs, follow their etiquette, because to do otherwise would be offending them, even if you're following your native culture's sense of etiquette.

Also, this.

Quote from: sparrow on June 13, 2015, 04:22:50 PM
I finally figured out (perhaps) why this is more troubling to others than it is to me!  I was raised in an environment where all things were believed to possess spirit.  Animals, plants, rocks... every thing is a spiritual being.  While I haven't bought into any amount of spirituality for many years, I guess the perspective has stuck with me: people are things, and things are people.

Objects aren't just inanimate tools to use however you want. Take care of objects, they last longer. Utilize objects appropriately and responsibly, they work better. Are you going to ask a stone of it wants a drink? No, but you might ask your teddy bear to join you for tea. Also, 'it' isn't the only pronoun used for objects. It's not uncommon for people to refer to their vehicles, stuffed animals, statues, and more as 'he' or 'she'. Using 'it' doesn't have to be dehumanizing, if you recognize that person (or object really) as worthy of respect and treat them accordingly.

I like 'one' for generic unknown person. ("One feels better when one takes care of oneself".) And singular 'they' for specific person with unknown gender identity. But these are generic, not necessarily gender neutral, a gender, or androgynous (all of which are also different things). So 'it' makes perfect sense for singular specific of non-binary gender.

Having been on the end of being called 'it' as an insult I think it would take me a while to feel comfortable about having 'it' as my pronoun.  Then on the other hand I regard being called 'he' as an even bigger insult so perhaps I could get used to it.

They/theirs/them can sound a little clunky sometimes, but I have used that form of speech reasonably often without any problems.  Here in New Zealand gender diverse folk can officially choose 'X' instead of 'M' or 'F' which makes me wonder about xe/xyr/xyrs/xem as a possible option.

Quote from: sparrow on May 06, 2015, 12:10:16 AM
"I'm not a  'he'.  I'm not a 'she'.  Call me 'it'."

Discuss.

For me, not much to discuss, you ask me to call you "it" as a pronoun andI will do my dangest to get it right the way i would with any other "he", "she" "they" request.

That being said "they" "Their" "themselves" and "them" are perfectly acceptable as a gendered pronouns. Punch the grammer Nazis in the butt if they get fussy, it's a vernacular that has been used/abused as singular by many for a looooong time!

Quote from: sparrow on May 05, 2015, 10:29:52 PM
English has a perfectly good neuter pronoun: 'it'.

The term "queer" was super offensive when I grew up.  But we've owned the term, and many of us identify that way.  For some, it's a comfortable umbrella term that works while they're figuring themselves out, and others are just happy to leave it at that.

The pronoun "it" is used for all sorts of gendered stuff.  Power plug?  "it".  Even though it's a female.  Cute puppy? "it".  Baby in appropriately nongendered attire? "Is it a boy or a girl?"  IT!  Why can't we talk about people this way?  Bugs me.  We can use "it" to describe anything at all, except a person.  Why?  What a stupid exception!

I say we own it.  But I'm not going to go around saying to use that pronoun just yet.  I hate to think what'll happen if I acclimate some people to using that pronoun, and they try it out when they meet another trans person.  So I'd like to hear from the offended.  Everybody, really.  But I tend to learn more from people who disagree with me.

If it helps, I know a nb person who prefers the pronoun "it". So people do do this. I respect its pronoun preferences, but I wouldn't be comfortable with someone using "it" of me.

As you say, "it" has connotations with being a thing, or a baby/puppy/not an equal human worthy of respect.

That said, as a community we've managed to put "they" back into common use as a gender-neutral pronoun. So, it's doable certainly.

Hey neat, this thread came back.  This was one of the first things I posted here.  Since then... I've started to come around on them/they.  I've been trying to figure language out for myself.  I hate all the names.  I hate all the pronouns.  I just want to crawl into a hole and escape it all.

I've been living out for a while now, and I've come to understand vulnerability in a way that a "hetero"/cis/white guy never could (even though I was almost strictly closeted about my sexuality... I didn't even recognize that I was in the closet due to vulnerability).  At this point in time, I don't feel that I could own "it" because of how it would alter peoples' perception of me -- I now feel that it would be an open invitation to dehumanize me.  I'm already dealing with enough of that day to day.

Quote from: sparrow on December 29, 2015, 06:42:03 PM
Hey neat, this thread came back.  This was one of the first things I posted here.  Since then... I've started to come around on them/they.  I've been trying to figure language out for myself.  I hate all the names.  I hate all the pronouns.  I just want to crawl into a hole and escape it all.

I've been living out for a while now, and I've come to understand vulnerability in a way that a "hetero"/cis/white guy never could (even though I was almost strictly closeted about my sexuality... I didn't even recognize that I was in the closet due to vulnerability).  At this point in time, I don't feel that I could own "it" because of how it would alter peoples' perception of me -- I now feel that it would be an open invitation to dehumanize me.  I'm already dealing with enough of that day to day.

I agree you should be able to use it. But I'm at the point right now, and who knows if this might change, that I feel as though i can be okay with people calling me they/them/it, he/his, she/her. I just don't even want it to matter. Of course most people will probably use he/ him cause it's what they'd be used to for me and at the end of the day don't look all that feminine in appearance even if I presented as such. I agree I hate the pronouns. The name or label I'm still trying to figure out. I want to feel more comfortable in how I "identify" because I think it will give me some peace of mind, even though At the end of the day screw labels too. Why can't everyone just be themselves! At the end of the day I'm not they/them or any other pronoun, I am me. At least I hope to achieve this way of thinking someday... Easier said than done! Haha

Much love,

Ry


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RESPECT is more than a great song and part of what we deal with being out there.  I have heard the pronoun 'it' applied to me with considerable venom and it still feels too raw.  I guess that is a basic for me; how do you intend to treat each other?  I don't need to be a total empath to know when someone is dissing me or just mistaken and cool with understanding more.

And then I like to identify myself as queer but that also took some time to own and wear in public.  i trip over they and them as singular pronouns and still misgender myself on occasion.  Big woop ;D  We are works in progress and i have a steep learning curve ;D

Thank you for the thoughtful post and dialogue

One word for you: thon.  ;D

Hugs, Devlyn

It gets used on me now and again but mostly when I speak to my mother and honestly, I just don't care. Allowing the word to feel like and insult or to care what others are using to describe me is just giving power to words and to other people who don't deserve it.

I don't even care to "own" "it". I think the answer is not letting it bother you.

To me, "it" is absolutely out of the question. As others have said before, in practical use it refers to objects, and it's dehumanising.
I would not let anyone call me "it", and I would refuse to call someone "it" if they asked me to, because I refuse to dehumanise them.
All kinds of insults (queer and whatnot) are fine and can be "reclaimed" or thrown around in malice or in joke without me taking much issue because it's still between humans who are simply opposed to one another or joking or any other interaction that's part of the human experience, pleasant or no. "It" denies that common trait and experience of humanity. And to me that's got nothing to do with respecting someone's identification anymore, because that identification is harmful. Going along with it would be the opposite of respect. There are enough gender-neutral pronouns that still show respect for a nonbinary identity; it doesn't have to be that one.

Besides, I don't understand this apparent need to "reclaim" everything and be fine with everything and get used to everything. It's fine to simply reject unpleasant words. Trying to adapt to things like that seems more like an effort at being a doormat to me. Why do it voluntarily?

Quote from: Drake on January 01, 2016, 04:01:23 AM
I would not let anyone call me "it", and I would refuse to call someone "it" if they asked me to, because I refuse to dehumanise them.

But not everybody sees it that way.  I think it's really important to respect people's wishes with regard to how they are addressed.  I would compare this to refusing to acknowledge a transwoman as female, because you don't want to insult her manhood -- that is, completely failing to get the point.  People who identify in this way are still human, and they perceive 'it' to be an acceptable pronoun to use for people and therefore not dehumanizing.  They will want you to get accustomed to it as a non-dehumanizing term, and they want to be treated as human.  If they turn around and refer to you as "it," then you've got every right to take offense.

Quote from: Mado G on July 26, 2015, 03:56:46 PM
'it' derives from the Old English pronoun 'hit', which is etymologically closer to 'he', both in sense and use ('hit' has a more animate connotation) than the contemporary 'it'. Perhaps this would be a good compromise, pseudowning 'it' without activating its (two senses) dehumanizing semantics.

most third person pronouns/grammar regarding them are derived from masculinity.

the possesive 's' in hers, bob's, carla's etc... was originally a shortened form of 'his'. Etymologically, you're saying 'her his,' 'bob his,' and 'carla his' when you use it, renaming the original noun.

Man means both human and male human for that reason. Old English had 'man' mean human, 'wer' and 'wif' respectively were 'man' and 'woman.' (This is why werewolves are called werewolves, 'wer'=man, so literally 'man-wolf.') With the influx of latin, 'homo' meaning human replaced man, 'wer' was kicked out and 'wif' became wife.

That being said, while it does hahve negative connotations, I'll respect anyone who wants to use it. I wouldn't use the pronoun myself, but I also recognize that English isn't super accommodating for NB/trans/GQ people.

The only problem i would have with 'it' is that a lot of people really don't like it - maybe because it's been used as a slur against them - and so when some people are okay with 'it' and others aren't, that causes confusion. Some people might think 'it' is okay, and then offend someone else by mistake.

What I mean is, I'd be happy to let others call themselves 'it' so long as it doesn't cause third parties to use the same expression for me. It's a bit like what happens with drag queens and the T-word, and things like '->-bleeped-<-' etc - that all fits in with what they're doing, but misleads people about other gender non conforming people. It's probably pretty cowardly to ask a few individuals not to use 'it' just so there's no repercussions for us that don't like it, but it's impossible to educate everyone and misinformation spreads pretty fast. :/

"They, them, zie, hir" commonly accepted.

It is usually for inanimate objects. It is also used sometimes derogatorily.

But you can use whatever pronoun you want.  Its part of the nonbinary priveledge of self discovery.