Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Virtually every thread on this forum seems to be a positive Yeson experience. It has been a year since my surgery. As for statistics I am 35 years old, 152 pounds, and 5'9".

My base bitch as measured at Yeson was 135hz and always considered my voice to be rather deep. I attempted to do voice training prior to surgery but could never get my resonance right. Post op my voice was supposed to be around 205hz but even still my normal talking voice was actually around 165hz and has steadily dropped down to 140hz. Luckily, my voice wasn't destroyed but I am no better off having had the surgery.

At the time of my surgery I toured Seoul with two other trans women that had VFS done as well. Having talked with both in the past week, they report the same problem. One had a perfectly feminine voice prior to surgery, the other more akin to mine.

While there is much hype on this forum in regards to Yeson, I am somewhat at a loss as to what to do to improve my voice. I feel that I may need to consult an ENT to get a recording of my vocal cords and begin consulting a speech therapist. Does anyone have other suggestions?

Sorry you are having that experience. I haven't had VFS so don't have anything I can offer as help but just wanted to give some moral support, hope you find a solution.

Really good of you to express an honest view about your Yeson experience.
We usually only hear the sunshine stories, and often really have to dig for a more balanced picture.

Have you had speech therapy after Yeson?  Or did you just follow their exercises?

Can't comment about vocal surgery but I trained myself and I have plenty of resonance. It took me about 3 years for it to be consistent enough to the point where I could use my voice all day without it straining and dying on me. It's just a matter of staying active with training, strengthening your voice box slowly and steadily. Sorry you're going through this though, hugs!

I have never had professional voice training. I followed the exercise but they have always felt to be a futile experience. I plan to email Jessie to see if she can offer any suggestions.

Quote from: Aphaea on May 24, 2015, 12:25:05 PM
I have never had professional voice training. I followed the exercise but they have always felt to be a futile experience. I plan to email Jessie to see if she can offer any suggestions.

That may be where the problem is. With such a delicate VFS,  I cannot understand why the crucial post op exercises seem to be left as a form of patient DIY.  I intend to start weekly voice therapy again for at least the next 3 months.

At the post op check up they give you a session with a voice therapist where she goes over the exercises that you are supposed to do once you are allowed to start speaking which is more than a month after the surgery. The other problems are that the session is very rushed, you cannot practice it (since you just had surgery!), and they refused to allow me to record the session on my phone. You are sent a prerecorded video of their exercises but it feels so different than what I remembered at Yeson. The video is located here: https://vimeo.com/38898827

Quote from: Aphaea on May 24, 2015, 01:01:48 PM
At the post op check up they give you a session with a voice therapist where she goes over the exercises that you are supposed to do once you are allowed to start speaking which is more than a month after the surgery. The other problems are that the session is very rushed, you cannot practice it (since you just had surgery!), and they refused to allow me to record the session on my phone. You are sent a prerecorded video of their exercises but it feels so different than what I remembered at Yeson. The video is located here: https://vimeo.com/38898827

I can't see how you can just be told to start exercises a month after surgery. You are unable to know the state of your vocal cords without seeing an ENT and normally you would require a post op examination to determine if it's safe to proceed with exercises. That's what I ended up doing.

Aphaea  I am sorry to hear that your results are not what you expected or hoped for. Does he do revision or warranty type of work to maybe get things where they need to be for you?

In any case it took a lot of courage to post your experience and thank you for doing so. I have always sort of had this type of surgery as a lower priority to do thing someday and having broad feedback is important.

I hope you can get your situation sorted where you are happy with your voice - HUGS !!

*hugs*

Some things that can be done fairly quickly are intonation and a bit more breathy or soft voice...

for more you could look here for example:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,189270.msg1684109.html#msg1684109


hugs

Hello Aphaea,

I am sorry you have that experience, but thanks for posting it. I dont like it if the forum gives the impression of being one-sided. I have a few thoughts on this and a few questions, maybe it can help.

Ok, so first a more general question - those two women you met in Korea - they also had VFS with Dr Kim, but were a year post op when you arrived there for the surgery? Did you meet them by chance, were they at the clinic for a revision, or what was the circumstances of your meeting? Have you been scared by their experiences, given you just were about to have that surgery? The one who had a feminine voice from training before the surgery - what was her expecience - did she have more trouble having it post op or was it easier for her to use it?

Next question: Have you checked your lowest possible not pre and post op. Does your voice break away when you use it now at 140 Hz? the background is this: My lowest note has increased from 85 Hz to about 120 Hz - I can speak at 140 Hz or even 130 Hz , but whenever I go low at the end of the sentences then, the voice just fails because it cannot go lower. If this is what is happening to you, you are using your voice at the very lowest end of its range.

Another question: What about your upper range, your transition to the head voice and your head voice in general? The Yeson exercises should train that transition zone - starting at a comfortable pitch and then go up to the G above th emiddle C which clearly is into the head voice zone. Was that easy for you, did you feel te voice break there, was it an issue for you? What was a comfortable pitch to start the Yeson exercises with (the mmmmiiiii one for example, or the lip trill)?

Is it easier to use higher pitches now for you? I found it is not so much that the pitch is forced up by the surgery so much as that it allows or enables to use higher pitches comfortably. Women use low pitches as well, but for a womans voice it is easier to use high pitches as well, so it has a bigger vocal range when speaking and this gives a higher average pitch. It can still be as low as 130 or 140 Hz in some sylabils, but then it shoots up to 260 or even in the head voice and then goes down to 200 again... Thats ok, as long as you dont get locked in at the very low end of it.

Ok, thats a truckload of questions so far, maybe you can answer a few of them?

My general advice without knowing the answers would be to go and see a speech therapist - ideally a gender specialist, but it can also be a regular speech therapist who just focusses on you using your voice in the range that is optimal and who knows how to train for a more vivid voice (you can , if you like, post pre and post op recordings here so we can maybe hear what issues might be present).

I think the Yeson instructions and exercises are not really enough. They are a bare minimum you get because they cannot give you regular checkups or prescribe voice therapy in Seoul ;) - Dr Kim told me I should start with my voice rehab therapy after 8 weeks and I get a prescription by my local ENT for it, she also does post op endoscopic video checkups  and I send them in to Dr Kim. Dr Kim also takes voice recordings via email and can analyze them for you and tell you what issues are possibly present.

Aphaea, I am truly sorry the surgery hasn't given you what you want and I do hope things improve with voice therapy.
I'm due to have surgery with Yeson in July, and I'm getting seriously worried as I've read about a few people now who aren't happy after the Yeson surgery. You mentioned meeting a woman who had a female voice before surgery, but you didn't say in so many words that she now has difficulty sounding female. Was that the case? Did the Yeson surgery take away her ability to sound female? If so I'm going to have to seriously rethink this surgery. I can't afford to start sounding male as a result of going to Yeson, as I'm a teacher. That would be a disaster for me.

Sarah.

The two women in Korea had the surgery at the same time I did. We met via email through Jessie and toured Seoul together. The one with the feminine voice prior to surgery I do not have much knowledge about her voice aside that she isn't happy with it. The other I still talk to through Skype and believe her problem is primarily that she needs to work heavily on her resonance. I do not have information on her pitch.

Yes my voice does break at 140hz. A large part of my problem is that some days the voice is low and others it may be in an acceptable range. I feel that the various surgeries since Yeson may have impacted it despite informing the surgeon to use a 5.5 tube each time, but neither was my voice in an overly good state before the other surgeries.

I will answer the barrage of other questions at another time :)


To answer Tesla I do not feel the surgery hurt my voice, but neither do I feel it as beneficial as I had hoped. As with all surgeries there comes a risk. The woman I met that had a feminine voice prior to surgery had a feminine voice afterwards, but rather that she was not satisfied with her results a year after surgery. I have not heard her voice since as that is only what she has said through email.

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 26, 2015, 06:17:44 PM
Aphaea, I am truly sorry the surgery hasn't given you what you want and I do hope things improve with voice therapy.
I'm due to have surgery with Yeson in July, and I'm getting seriously worried as I've read about a few people now who aren't happy after the Yeson surgery. You mentioned meeting a woman who had a female voice before surgery, but you didn't say in so many words that she now has difficulty sounding female. Was that the case? Did the Yeson surgery take away her ability to sound female? If so I'm going to have to seriously rethink this surgery. I can't afford to start sounding male as a result of going to Yeson, as I'm a teacher. That would be a disaster for me.

Sarah.

I think with any VFS there is the risk of being worse off than when you went in. If ones voice is totally acceptable as is, then I for one would not have had VFS. You can minimize the risks through choice of surgeon and aftercare, but there will always be that risk. Basically it's a question of do the possible benefits outweigh the possible downfalls. I'm not scaremongering, just speaking from personal experience and from people whom I have a first hand accounts from.

Quote from: Aphaea on May 27, 2015, 01:06:21 AM

Yes my voice does break at 140hz. A large part of my problem is that some days the voice is low and others it may be in an acceptable range. I feel that the various surgeries since Yeson may have impacted it despite informing the surgeon to use a 5.5 tube each time, but neither was my voice in an overly good state before the other surgeries.

I also believe that the VFS is at risk with any future intubation,even though they do there utmost to be careful. I would plan any VFS as a final surgery, not withstanding emergency surgery. However I was told that after 6 months, the risk is greatly reduced.

I have been intubated 3x since VFS, the first was about 9 months post op. One time did leave me very hoarse afterward for about 4 days, scared the crap out of me. Luckily came back in full.

Sorry to hear that some are having less than optimal results. Have you done the exercises and actively been trying to retrain your brain to use the higher range? It's hard, your mind will play tricks on you and want you to go back down.

How long did you do the exercises for? I stopped around 9-10 months

I'm still noticing changes and it's been two years for me. Hang in there and try to stay positive, a good attitude will take you far when it comes to the necessary adaptation to your new vocal setup. It's a bit of a rollercoaster at times.

Thanks for sharing Aphaea & all

Certainly considering VFS, and Yeson as my voice is very old and very content with what it knows, whilst I have been doing some VT (smartphone applets) but my voice breaks very quickly...

Having this info is certainly of benefit... thanks all, because mostly I've only heard great things, but off course any surgery always carries a risk, and of course we all react very differently to surgeries.

I guess its not a magic wand...

L Katy  :-*

Quote from: Aphaea on May 27, 2015, 01:06:21 AM
The two women in Korea had the surgery at the same time I did. We met via email through Jessie and toured Seoul together. The one with the feminine voice prior to surgery I do not have much knowledge about her voice aside that she isn't happy with it. The other I still talk to through Skype and believe her problem is primarily that she needs to work heavily on her resonance. I do not have information on her pitch.

Do you think they may be interested in joining this forum as well for help, information and sharing their results? There is also a Yeson Patient Facebook Group, in case they dont want to join a forum....

QuoteYes my voice does break at 140hz. A large part of my problem is that some days the voice is low and others it may be in an acceptable range.

Well if 140 Hz is really your lowest pitch and below that nothing comes out or maybe just some noises, then this is your lowest end of the pitch range. It makes not much sense then to use this as your speaking voice as it would be equivalent of you speaking below 100 Hz pre OP, if that was where your low end was at that time. Basically you would be overly relaxing your vocal muscles. This happens to me at times when I am really tired, but usually if I speak, some tension comes in and I am more heading to the 160 Hz range.
This would mean, that voice therapy can help - my speech therapist also has a voice that goes as low as 140 Hz and below that it starts to break, she basically seems to have my vocal range now. The key then is to retrain your brain to use a new comfortable pitch that is not at your new low end.

Array I just lost a massive post during editing!!

Long story short then, I am 4 months post op and am also incredibly disappointed to the point of depression, though I suspect the clonazepam and then withdrawal from the clonazepam has contributed to that (I had such bad side effects I had to write to Yeson to tell hem I couldn't keep taking it and hey put me on a course of massages and water drinking instead - I always feel like someone has their hands around my throat now that the Botox and clonazepam have worn off).

I had a perfectly passable voice before the op, and I still do now - but it's the exact same voice. I have had no noticeable useful benefit from the op. I have lost the bottom 4 pitches of my range, but I never used them anyway, and I have an easier to access falsetto - that still sounds male. These are changes I can't get any benefit from. The ceiling on my head voice remains where it was.

What I wanted from the op was a higher fundamental frequency to my speaking voice and a higher ceiling on my chest voice in order to be able to express excitement and happiness by going up high in pitch like most women can. I didn't get either. I lost the ability to use my untrained pre-transition voice, and that's really all.

I can't see my pitch rising any more because it's been staying just where it was when I started talking at 1.5 months, despite exercises and voice therapists.

Hi Sarah

I am sorry you also are disappointed.

The clonazepam is known to have some bad side effects as a possibility, which is why Dr Kim gave me an alternative medication when I mentioned to him I have a history of depression. If you like, I can look up the name of that in english and maybe you can get a prescription at your ENT?

Quote from: seattlesarah on May 31, 2015, 10:58:57 PM
I had a perfectly passable voice before the op, and I still do now - but it's the exact same voice. I have had no noticeable useful benefit from the op. I have lost the bottom 4 pitches of my range, but I never used them anyway, and I have an easier to access falsetto - that still sounds male. These are changes I can't get any benefit from. The ceiling on my head voice remains where it was.

What should happen is that if you had to use some concentration and muscle power to get your voice into the passable range pre-op, it should now come naturally after the surgery - did that happen for you? You cannot drop into a male range anymore, do you perceive that as a benefit or did that never happen to you anyways?

The transition to head voice is something that cannot be changed with surgery and honestly it seems to be similar in male and female voices anyways. In female voices the "head voice" is supplemented by a "middle" voice which is more likely the part you would use in the upper speech range. My voice therapist has the same transition points as I have (pre and post VFS), but the key is to go over that transition point and actually use the head (or "middle") voice for some expressions, intonations - not so speak full sentences in it, but the head/middle voice is part of the female speaking pattern.... I am not sure why it sounds male for you if you have a passable female voice below that point - which would indicate you are using resonance the right way in the chest voice - does this not work in the head/middle voice?

QuoteWhat I wanted from the op was a higher fundamental frequency to my speaking voice and a higher ceiling on my chest voice in order to be able to express excitement and happiness by going up high in pitch like most women can. I didn't get either. I lost the ability to use my untrained pre-transition voice, and that's really all.

To be honest - the idea of the surgery was not really to add more pitch to your already trained female voice but to make that trained voice your natural voice. I am sure if you want, you can with more ease use even higher pitches now than before, though. Can you tell us what your voice parameters were? Pre OP untrained pitch, pre Op trained pitch, post op relaxed pitch, your ideal wish-pitch?

Regarding the "expressing excitement and happiness" - as I mentioned before, this happens actually partially in the head and middle voice for other women too. The focus there should be on training the head/middle voice and the transition into head voice, which is actually part of the goal of the Yeson post op exercises, I believe. They start at the middle C which is in the middle voice range and already close to head voice and then go up to the G above that which is well into head voice. What I found however is that it is far easier than before the surgery to really use the middle voice and access it, the transition is not as rough anymore - so I am well able to use part of my head and middle voice in daily expressions like laughing or the classical "oh my god!" shouting :P ;)

Again, I am sorry you were disappointed, I think your expectation to increase the transition from chest to head voice was unrealistic, but the fundamental frequency should be higher and the higher pitches should be easier accessible now.

P.S.: http://www.singwise.com/cgi-bin/main.pl?section=articles&doc=UnderstandingVocalRangeRegistersAndType gives a good view on different registers, I believe.

Thanks for the reply Anjaq, and ReDuckscwho I can't reply to in personal messages (I don't have access).

Firstly I better clear up that I'm not living in Seattle (it is my spiritual home, god I love that city), and my real name isn't Sarah. I didn't want to use my real details here since the forum is so public.

My pre-op speaking fundamental frequency was 135hz untrained, about 175 trained and relaxed, about 205 when super concentrating, e.g. on the phone to a stranger. I hadn't been misgendered on the phone in 6 years and I was stealth from 2010-2015, I came out this year for various reasons. My old range was E2-G4 chest (strained sounding after E4), C4-B5 falsetto (I could push falsetto down into chest voice range). My falsetto always sounded male no matter what and due to vocal cord damage I couldn't access much of it. I couldn't do blended voice at all. My chest voice could sound female down to quite a low pitch, say 150hz, because I learned to control resonance and have a sing song vocal style.

4 months post op my range is G2 or A3 depending on the day, up to G4. My blended voice goes up to C5. My falsetto goes up to B6 but is only good for anything other than squealing up to about G5.

I feel that both blend (which I couldn't do before the op) and falsetto sound fake/male.

I measure my post-op not-thinking-about-it pitch at between 160hz and 176 hz depending on day. Yeson says the last sample I sent them measures at 244hz fundamental frequency - I measure it at 176 with praat. I asked them to double check they had the correct file and recheck the measurements but they say they are correct and that praat isn't as sophisticated as their program. It really does not sound like a 244hz voice.

Today I discovered something after posting. I have been struggling with croakiness since the op, and this weekend it got really bad because I was out all day in noisy shops with my mum talking constantly. My throat became tight like there were hands clasped around it.

It's been really bad since - croaky and tight. Today I tried consciously lifting my pitch - and the raspiness goes away significantly when I do! Maybe I am straining my voice by speaking too low, even though that's where my voice gravitates to?

So I'm consciously raising the pitch to the top end of my chest voice and accessing falsetto or blend (hard to control for me when jumping up into it from chest voice randomly, easy to do when going up a scale) when I need to go up from there. The resulting average pitch is 215-240hz, close to what Yeson said. To my ear it sounds fake, speaking up there, and I feel very conscious of the transitions between voice types - this doesn't have the feeling of freedom I expect cis women must have with their voices. I don't know if this is what Dr Kim meant by the brain needing to get used to the hew equipment - that it will feel fake for a while - but I thought we weren't supposed to actively try to raise the pitch and let it find its own level?

I'm going to try keeping the pitch raised for a few days to see if the croakiness reduces.

Anjaq I was given two alternative drugs to take by Jesse but both have bad side effects and I'm just not willing to put myself through it again. I offered to get another Botox shot but after listening to my file they said the massages and water would be enough.

However this turns out I'm not getting the freedom from the pitch ceiling on my head voice that I hoped for before the op. I was hoping to be able to get up to A5 without strain. If that was an unrealistic expectation, ten let me be a lesson to others about what this operation can't do for you. At the end of the day I still feel like I am dealing with male vocal equipment. :(

Quote from: seattlesarah on June 01, 2015, 11:04:10 AM

However this turns out I'm not getting the freedom from the pitch ceiling on my head voice that I hoped for before the op. I was hoping to be able to get up to A5 without strain. If that was an unrealistic expectation, ten let me be a lesson to others about what this operation can't do for you. At the end of the day I still feel like I am dealing with male vocal equipment. :(

Sarah, can you post a voice sample?

Hi "Sarah"

Much of what you describe rings a bell in me. I think we have similar starting points and similar issues with the voice now. I was at about 110-130 Hz untrained pre op and at about 140-160 Hz trained and relaxed, going up to 200 Hz was possible but was straining and cost effort and sounded fake to me. My chest voice broke into head voice at about the middle C, but I was probably mostly using a blended voice below that (resonance control) and able to sound female until almost the D3 at 140 Hz or so. My upper pitch limits are also similar to yours, including the uppermost pitch being G5 ...

Post op I have  found that using the lower ranges are straining my voice more than if I use upper ranges. I seem to be more gentle on my voice when it is used at 200 Hz than if I let it drop to 170 or 180 Hz or even below, which is however a place it sometimes wants to settle and I think this is what Dr Kim meant with retraining the voice. I found a good way to get used to the new optimum pitch seems to be singing, as singing for me naturally comes out a lot higher in pitch and without any male undertones. It gives me the feeling of working with female vocal chords now and not having to fight male subtones and pitch ranges.

I had a similar experience like you last weekend - I strained my voice a bit (campfires, some singing, lots of talking, rainy weather) and since then it feels rough, hoarse, weak and like I have something stuck in my throat. However Jessie replied to my request that it is more likely a cold infection than the Botox wearing off. So I guess all I can do now is voice rest and drinking tea and then make a voice redording to send to Yeson for analysis

Quote from: seattlesarah on June 01, 2015, 11:04:10 AM
I hadn't been misgendered on the phone in 6 years and I was stealth from 2010-2015, I came out this year for various reasons.

Oh wow - I am stealth in some aspects of my life for 15 years now, but dont really want to come out - I have a few friends who "know", though. Why did you go public with it?

QuoteI couldn't do blended voice at all. My chest voice could sound female down to quite a low pitch, say 150hz, because I learned to control resonance and have a sing song vocal style.

Are you sure this was not some "blended" voice?

QuoteI feel that both blend (which I couldn't do before the op) and falsetto sound fake/male.

Well, you gained blended voice, that is great already. What makes you think your upper range beyond the middle C is male sounding? Why would it be - if you do resonance properly. The Yeson exercises are almost all in that range - do you feel you sound male when doing them?

QuoteI measure my post-op not-thinking-about-it pitch at between 160hz and 176 hz depending on day. Yeson says the last sample I sent them measures at 244hz fundamental frequency - I measure it at 176 with praat. I asked them to double check they had the correct file and recheck the measurements but they say they are correct and that praat isn't as sophisticated as their program. It really does not sound like a 244hz voice.

I would like to hear that recording and analyze it in PRAAT. I have some tricks to use in PRAAT which give more accurate results.

Another way to check pitch is to use a piano or sound generator and see which note sounds most like your speaking voice. Its better someone else does that comparison though. My voice therapist uses this to determine my speaking pitch.

QuoteIt's been really bad since - croaky and tight. Today I tried consciously lifting my pitch - and the raspiness goes away significantly when I do! Maybe I am straining my voice by speaking too low, even though that's where my voice gravitates to?

So I'm consciously raising the pitch to the top end of my chest voice and accessing falsetto or blend (hard to control for me when jumping up into it from chest voice randomly, easy to do when going up a scale) when I need to go up from there. The resulting average pitch is 215-240hz, close to what Yeson said. To my ear it sounds fake, speaking up there, and I feel very conscious of the transitions between voice types - this doesn't have the feeling of freedom I expect cis women must have with their voices. I don't know if this is what Dr Kim meant by the brain needing to get used to the hew equipment - that it will feel fake for a while - but I thought we weren't supposed to actively try to raise the pitch and let it find its own level?

Actually I think this is partially true. I was given the instruction by Dr kim to consciously use that target pitch and not let it drop. As I understand it, I have to train my brain to use the voice at that pitch now which is my new optimum pitch, but my brain did not get it yet and is still used to the old equipment. I feel the transition to blended voice and head voice is all a lot easier now and actually I have a blended voice that ranges from G3 to D4 which is quite useable for speaking and comes quite easy - if I drop out of the blended voice, the voice gets hoarse, if I go upward I am in the head voice which is good for singing or some expressions but not for talking - doesnt make sense at 260 Hz anyways.

The interesting thing was that my voice therapist said, she has the same passagio points - she usually sings along me when we try singing different notes and she also breaks into a sort of head voice at the D4 or E4, sometimes even C4 - same with me. So this gave me the feeling that male and female voices are not as fundamentally different as some may think.

So for me it also feels weird - in some way it feels like I need to consciously shift something, in some ways it feels "right" to use the voice with the blended voice at that target pitch. I dont know how this will progress from here - most people who had the surgery did not report such details.

QuoteHowever this turns out I'm not getting the freedom from the pitch ceiling on my head voice that I hoped for before the op. I was hoping to be able to get up to A5 without strain. If that was an unrealistic expectation, ten let me be a lesson to others about what this operation can't do for you. At the end of the day I still feel like I am dealing with male vocal equipment. :(

Have you talked to women who are not good singers about how their voice feels and acts and reacts when speaking and going up in pitch? Maybe we can learn something there. I am not sure an A5 is easily used in speaking by all cis women...

Uma amiga comentou comigo sobre Dr. Thomaz, em Portland - EUA e Dr. Ornouma e Kunack, Tailândia. Alguém tem referências ou mais informações? Obrigada.

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 27, 2015, 06:09:58 AM
I have been intubated 3x since VFS, the first was about 9 months post op. One time did leave me very hoarse afterward for about 4 days, scared the crap out of me. Luckily came back in full.

A friend of mine is having SRS after VFS; Can I take it from your comment that she shouldn't be particularly worried about damaging the VFS site, or is there a serious issue there?

Sarah

Quote from: Teslagirl on June 01, 2015, 06:18:12 PM
A friend of mine is having SRS after VFS; Can I take it from your comment that she shouldn't be particularly worried about damaging the VFS site, or is there a serious issue there?

Sarah

I would ask Dr. Kim for sure about that. Personally I would think that 3-4 months spaced out would be enough time for a full full heal of the vocal cords- I bet most of the inflammation will be gone by then.

Like I said though, make sure to ask Dr Kim!

I think Dr Kim will tell you that you should wait at least 2 months after VFS before you do another surgery and also to use a smaller intubation tube for the surgery. greenrabbit here in the forum had a surgery within the first 8 weeks and described her experiences and issues with that in a thread. basically it is a bit tricky to intubate with VFS already done. you need a smaller intubator (size 5.5) and be very careful inserting and removing it. Some SRS and FFS surgeons know about this, since they have patients frequently who had that issue. I know for example Facialteam has the knowledge how to deal with a VFS orior to the FFS they do. If it is done in a bad way though, even long after the surgery, a surgeon using a bad intubation can damage the voice with it. Which is why I am about to design a medical emergency card just in case...

Hi all, I sent Anjaq and Teslagirl some voice clips by private message, which unlocked for me after a few posts. I don't want to post my voice on the public forum.

I discovered this afternoon that I have a cold, so I can't really say now whether I've had strain the past few days causing the increased croakiness, or whether it was swollen glands or something... I'm just going to have to wait a week or so to get better and see.

I think what I'm most frustrated with is that I thought it would be easy and unconscious to speak at high pitches, but it's not, I'm super conscious of what words and syllables will break into falsetto and I know when I do it sounds flute-like and has too different a timbre to my chest voice to sound feminine. I sound "heavy".  I remember before my voice broke I didn't feel any difference in how I produced pitch at different levels. That's the kind of freedom I expect cis women feel when they talk and what I hoped to gain. I still feel like I have a really clunky, heavy instrument.

I'm aware I'm complaining a lot for having a passable voice, but to me it was never about passing, it was kind of about shrugging off this heaviness about my voice, both the sound and the feeling. I'm disappointed it didn't happen.

Of course a voice trainer helps, especially avoiding errors.
But many people have done this on their own. What it comes down to imo is practise: its like learning piano... no matter what method is used, like bringing down falsetto or singing or simply raising voice a bit step by step... its necessary to train muscles. Its like shaping a statue. It takes some time and consistent training.

Just keep at it... never overstrain your voice... and drink enough water to keep your throat moistened...


hugs

Quote from: seattlesarah on June 02, 2015, 06:56:56 AM
I think what I'm most frustrated with is that I thought it would be easy and unconscious to speak at high pitches, but it's not, I'm super conscious of what words and syllables will break into falsetto and I know when I do it sounds flute-like and has too different a timbre to my chest voice to sound feminine. I sound "heavy".  I remember before my voice broke I didn't feel any difference in how I produced pitch at different levels. That's the kind of freedom I expect cis women feel when they talk and what I hoped to gain.

I have a suggestion. I might do the same if I find an opportunity to do so. Maybe it makes sense to talk to a Ciswoman about how her voice feels to her - if it has breaks of if it feels different at different pitches... do a reality check on your assumptions!

How long is it in the past that your voice broke? Are you sure your memory is right?

My voice therapist made remarks about chest and head voice for her that sounded like she has also the same difference - at lower pitches it is chest voice and then it goes into head voice (or maybe mixed voice or whatever one wants to call it). Her passagio is at the same point as it is for me, at the C4. I am not sure the break is as strong for her though as it is for me - I would need to ask.

I think one thing you can work on with therapy is to train your muscles to make the passagio softer - and to use a mixed or middle voice instead of a falsetto for the upper ranges. The Yeson lip trill exercises are a good exercises to make this happen as well as the other glissandos. My voice therapist said that in every human, there are two main muscles involved in pitch, the CT muscle and the vocalis muscle - and there is one point at which one of them has to let go and the other has to take control and if one of them just lets go too soon or the other pulls too hard when taking over, the voice breaks - so one has to train to use the muscles gentle and apparently this happens for women more natural or easy? I found that it is not that hard for me, especially post op (except now with the botox apparently wearing off) to make the transition softer when doing exercises but it does not always translate into speech. So I intend to ask her if there is some issue to that that is typical for males and if that issue is somethng women never have.

The "heavy" sound is probably more an imagination. Yes of course there is some timbre to your voice, otherwise it would be "flutelike" or thin. It gives character and power to a voice to have a timbre and I think with the Yeson surgery, the timbre shifts upwards significantly. Maybe not into a soprano range, but certainly into an alto female range. The surgery cannot make a soprano girl voice out of a bariton.

Quote from: seattlesarah on June 02, 2015, 06:56:56 AM
Hi all, I sent Anjaq and Teslagirl some voice clips by private message, which unlocked for me after a few posts. I don't want to post my voice on the public forum.

Hello Sarah from another fake Sarah!

Thank you for sending me your voice samples. You know, the first thing I want to say to you, is that croakiness or not, they all sound indisputably absolutely female and in the long run I'm sure you  will have a superb result. The first sample (Rainbow Passage) is probably a little high and I can hear you hitting the top of your range, but the second sample is undoubtedly a normal female voice, albeit probably a little higher than average. Your third sample is undoubtedly female as well. You say that it is similar to your pre-op voice but I can well imagine you might be straining to get down to that point following the Yeson surgery. I'd love to hear a pre-op sample if you have one, as I have a strong suspicion that the surgery doesn't just raise the pitch, (though some people end up with pretty much the same fundamental frequency as pre-op), it also affects the lower harmonics. I really think it is those lower harmonics which make a voice sound male, and why female voices at the same pitch sound 'purer'. I'm willing to bet you lost those subtones after surgery, because all I'm hearing is a pleasant woman's voice. I bet the croakiness goes with time, or if not, that it is amenable to voice therapy. I really do think you sound great and I'd be happy to get the same result.

Love,

Sarah.

Hi again Sarah.

I can see now that I was addressing the wrong issue, as sounding female is not an issue to you. You always sounded female anyhow.
As I understand it, you had the Yeson surgery to be able to fully relax in that female voice and you feel you haven't got it. I really do sympathise, but I have been using a controlled voice for many years, and I have to say that although controlled in theory, I feel totally relaxed and unconscious in using my voice. What I want from Yeson is to get rid of the lower harmonics and remove any chance that I might go too low. If you relax into the control like I have, I believe you will eventually lose that sense of consciously controlling your voice and you won't even know you're doing it.

Sarah

Well, it's possible I guess that I'll get used to the sensation of bridging that chest/head break smoothly without thinking (like I need to now), but the head voice still doesn't sound female to me.

I can't remember who I've told or if I said it publicly, but my macbook died suddenly just a month ago and I lost my pre-surgery voice samples. I went to the vocaroo links for them and they've expired. I really thought things stayed up on vocaroo longer than that.

I don't think ciswomen are really aware of what head and chest voices are or notice any difference in how they make the noise. My partner doesn't. I really don't think anyone who's voice never broke could understand the feeling I'm talking about of being trapped in low tones and feeling this kind of conscious heavy effort to move between chest and head voice to be able to go up in pitch while talking.

That's really interesting about the muscles and the best explanation I've seen for how/why the voice cracks between ranges, thanks for sharing that.

You heard my voice files Anjaq, don't you think that the parts where it goes into head voice sound off? It IS possible I hear it differently to others due to dysphoria.

I think mainly what I'm hearing from people is that it's fine and there are no problems. I should probably just let it go, but I do feel dejected.

Wll Tesla-Sarah, I was also hoping for some change in the harmonics but also some pitch increase and more easiness when going to head or middle voice - and I think I got all of that, albeit not yet to the degree I was hoping for (but its just 3.5 months now, so I am supposed to be patient ;) )
And yes - even if I go to the bottom of my range now, its hard to sound truely male.

I settled into my changed voice a long time ago, I mean - over a decade ago - so it felt relaxed to me to use my voice at the 140-160 Hz range - maybe that is why I dont perceive the difference so huge - my original voice must have been at 110 Hz, and that is the point the pitch increase starts counting from, right?

Seattle Sarah - Is there a chance that your voice files have been copied? Did you post the vocaroo links somewhere?

Quote from: seattlesarah on June 03, 2015, 05:29:54 AM
I don't think ciswomen are really aware of what head and chest voices are or notice any difference in how they make the noise. My partner doesn't. I really don't think anyone who's voice never broke could understand the feeling I'm talking about of being trapped in low tones and feeling this kind of conscious heavy effort to move between chest and head voice to be able to go up in pitch while talking.

Well I personally think something else plays a role, but I dont know the physics/biology. It seems to me that with the voice breaking, a new register is added below that one that women use normally. And the low pitch from the larger vocal chords resonate well in that register , so it is used mostly, for a while the voice flips between the old (child/female) register and the new one in puberty. I think that what has to be done now is to use that older register again and forget about the male register. Using higher pitches helps, having shorter vocal chords helps, training helps. I feel if I use that register, I have no issues transitioning between about G3 and up an octave. But below the F3 it starts to break up and to use lowest notes like C3, I can only get to them when I use the "male" register which also gives a different sound and which gives me the feeling of being locked in a low range. So I think there is a chance, that this is a learning process rather than physiology - that most women just never learn how to use that low register because for them it is not in their vocal range. Dr Kim insists on me using a female resonance pattern and higher pitches, so this fits into the picture that basically the goal is to just use that "middle" register and not drop into the lower register. And honestly that lower register that I guess I used before now feels and sounds all broken, so it does not make sense to use it anyways...

QuoteYou heard my voice files Anjaq, don't you think that the parts where it goes into head voice sound off? It IS possible I hear it differently to others due to dysphoria.

That may be.  But in your highest pitched sample, yes, it does sound strained, not male but like you are forcing your voice...

I'd have to listen to it again to see if I can hear parts that sound "male falsetto" like...

Quote from: jhulyglow on June 01, 2015, 03:02:55 PM
Uma amiga comentou comigo sobre Dr. Thomaz, em Portland - EUA e Dr. Ornouma e Kunack, Tailândia. Alguém tem referências ou mais informações? Obrigada.

Just thought I'd post a translation. Can anyone help jhulyglow?

"A friend commented to me about Dr. Thomas in Portland - USA and Dr. Ornouma and Kunack , Thailand. Does anyone have references or more information?

Thank you ."

There were several threads in which Dr Thomas was mentioned. Try searching the forum for "voicedoctor", which is the name of his website. From what I heave heard his technique is unique as it actually changes the whole larynx, making resonance as well as pitch no real issue and it should be the surgery that gets closest to a truely female voice. However the risk of complications is a lot higher than with the other voice surgeries and the results are mixed. Its is a highly invasive surgery. I never heard of the surgeon in Thailand, but given the large Trans population there I assume they have several voice surgeons there as well and some of them probably will have lots of experience. I saw a video once with some Thai girls who had voice surgery in Thailand and it sounded pretty good.