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Well, it's been 6 and a half months since I went to Yeson and my voice pitch is a comfortable 250 Hz.  The pitch is of course a massive improvement and sounds soon much better than pre-surgery.  There still seems to be a significant amount of bass in my voice and it just sounds off - even at 250 Hz, still sounds masculine.  Just wondering if anyone has any advice on how to improve it a little?

Thanks in advance.

Kim.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1sCWS3vBgaH (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1sCWS3vBgaH)

About to go to bed but I will chime back in later and post a recording of my own to help explain things better.

Thank you - appreciated...

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on May 24, 2015, 05:29:50 AM
About to go to bed but I will chime back in later and post a recording of my own to help explain things better.

Listened to the recording. It seems to lack variation in pitch. Sounds almost monotone.

I agree with the above poster, it does sound monotone. Also a bit squeezed. I'm thinking that you might be pushing it too high.

You could try a few things:
-speaking slower and more pronunciated. Men tend to slur language a bit, women tend to speak a bit more exact.

-trying speaking a bit more softer and breathier

-more intonation. Intonation with women is almost like a dance, going up and down much more, for example often going up at the end of a sentence, but also within words. Really? spoken by a man would go up slightly at the end... spoken by a women it would go up in the middle and again at the end, and much more.

Fot more pointers you could look here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,189191.msg1683308.html#msg1683308


hugs

This is why voice training, preferably with voice therapist, is much more important than any surgery. What surgery will do is only to raise a pitch, and allow you to speak at higher frequency a lot easier. And that's it. If your speaking voice sounded masculine before, it will still sound masculine after, only little higher. It's not about the pitch, although surgical alteration of pitch, can be helpful. It's about learning how to speak with your natural voice, in your natural range, using the feminine resonance, and learning the feminine speak pattern (which extremly varies on where you live). Trying to speak in higher than natural pitch, will sound the least feminine, as women don't do that. Only transwomen who are just learning their voice, and female impersonators do this.
I suggest you to find a voice/speaking therapist in your area, and start working with them regularly, like 2 times per week, which comes with a LOT of homework practice. 

Sorry for being a bit late to the party but I had problems creating an ID.
Being trained to hear problems in regular voices long before surgically altered voices were possible, I am going to assume what I am hearing is the same as a regular voice. The pitch is plenty high and could be a bit lower while still sounding good. What I hear is a strangled voice. My doctor treated hollywood stars with the same issue and they were his specialty A strangled voice is when the voice is pushed beyond it's limits and that could be low or high pitch as well as attempting to get far to much volume out of it. It can cause damage if used over the long term but often can be treated by remaining in the correct range and resting the voice as much as possible. In your case it sounds like you are pitching your voice so high that it is breaking. I would suggest you pick a time when your voice is rested then starting low hum a note. Repeat again with each note being a little bit higher. Observe how well your voice projects and if it is breaking. Your new pitch will be the range that you can project well and below the point where your voice breaks. Also be careful not to try for to much volume. From other surgeries I have had, small changes in healing can take 1-2 years and you may gain volume and range as time goes on.

I think the pitch is fine but you need somebody else to tell you what your voice sounds like. I hear an almost higher than normal voice that needs to be a bit lower. I also think you may need some training to add some more range at a lower frequency but the strangled voice makes it hard to diagnose any secondary issues that might be there. If you get the voice where it is comfortable and make another recording, I would be happy to listen to it and see what I can pick up on.

Have you tried using your throat muscles to open your airway a little more, as it could help resolve the "strangled" sound we are hearing.

There is  lot of resonance which seems to be the problem. Yeson should have provided some vocal exercises in a video to help with this.

I agree that it sounds monotone as well, like a robot voice almost.

Hi, kim27 thanks for sharing your recording.  I'm not an expert but I hear some similarities in your voice to mine, so I will share with you some things that I've done and maybe you will find them useful.  I hear a lot of sound vibrating in your nose which makes it sound strained and stuffy.  I would first try to hum in a comfortable range while pinching your nose.  If you hear and feel a buzzing sensation, it means your soft palate could be too open.  Try consciously to move the sound down from your nose and into your mouth.  Another way to practice this is to pretend you have to sneeze and just before you would normally say "achooo" instead let out a controlled "Ah" vowel sound and hold it.  When that becomes comfortable do the same exercise but start a short sentence or phrase.  I don't think you are as far away from a feminine voice as you may think.  Pitch is, for many people, the biggest struggle and you obviously have no issue with that.  Now, it's about finding the right resonant space for the voice you want.  Hope this can be useful and let us know how you progress :)

I just wanted to say thanks to all of you that have taken the time to reply.  There are a few useful ideas there to try - I know it won't be an overnight thing :) 

Thanks again,

Kim.

Hi.

I try to emphasize this a lot when talking about VFS. Pitch is just one part, you basically should be able to make a female sounding voice before VFS - at any pitch that you can reach there, ideally also at a lower pitch. If that works, a pitch raising surgery like VFS (which at Yeson stands actually more for "vocal fold shortening" than for "voice feminization surgery") helps and makes it easier. But it cannot feminize all of the voice.

My educated guess about what I hear in the recording is: The pitch is too high - unless you had a female pitch range pre-op, the pitch should not be this high but rather near the G or A. Yours is apparently close to the middle C. I can imagine that you got used to that range due to the Yeson exercises which use a lot of pitches for exercising that are at the middle C or above. But this is not the goal, the goal is an average female pitch range which is more a G or A, so about 200 Hz and not 250 or more. My gues sis, also from the way the voice sounds like, that you are consciously or subconsciously forcing up the pitch. This has two effects - it sounds "squeezed" and unnatural - and you are trapped in a small range below the breaking point to the head voice, which is usually a bit above the middle C. So if you speak just a bit below the middle C, your voice has not much room to the top to move before it goes into the head voice, which means unless you use the head voice, you will sound monotonous and this is what happens in the recording.

Consequently you definitely have to lower the voice into a range that is truely natural for you. It is a it hard to find out where that point is post OP, I am stuggling with that as well, but doing the lip flutter exercise without sound and then consciously relaxing your throat, all your jaw and neck muscles and then adding a soft and not very loud, breathy vowel like "u" to it may give you an idea. Or just sigh - Do a "Hmmm" as if in agreement so something someone tells you. This may also be a hint of the natural pitch now.

The next thing then is to work on the transition into head voice. Check out what happens at the voice break. If you do the Yeson exercises and you do the lip trills and humming glissandos (going from lowest to highst possible note), you should inevitably pass over the voice break. Also when you do the stepwise pitch increase exercises - humming or singing mmmiiii at a pitch ranging from C to G, you should as well go into the head voice. Maybe start the exercises at a lower pitch then. I usually do them over a full octave from G below the middle C to the G above the middle C - That way I do train my chest voice , which is the speaking voice, as well as my head voice. Speaking should happenb in the chest voice, I think you have probably too much head voice in the speaking voice, which sounds "falsetto".

The reason it sounds falsetto and not like a female singing voice is the resonance - this is the hardest but most crucial part. Yeson try to teach this with those "ng-aaah" exercises, but I find they are insufficient. You will have to use some other exercises - ideally a voice coach or voice therapist, maybe the FYFV videos also may help you. I think it is easier to learn this pre-op  as the coaches and instructions are all designed for pre op voices, but they should also work post op.

Quote from: kim27 on May 24, 2015, 05:17:36 AM
Well, it's been 6 and a half months since I went to Yeson and my voice pitch is a comfortable 250 Hz.  The pitch is of course a massive improvement and sounds soon much better than pre-surgery.  There still seems to be a significant amount of bass in my voice and it just sounds off - even at 250 Hz, still sounds masculine.  Just wondering if anyone has any advice on how to improve it a little?

Thanks in advance.

Kim.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1sCWS3vBgaH (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1sCWS3vBgaH)

I think resonance is the problem.  As far as I know voice surgery can't change resonance and it resonance that makes the voice sound male.  Resonance is like the difference between a trumpet and a tuba.  Both instruments can play the exact same note at the exact same pitch but the tuba still sounds like a tuba.  Very bassy.  The same analogy applies to the male and female voice.  Male voice is the tuba and the female voice is the trumpet.  It's resonance that make the female voice sound female not pitch. A female with a pitch in the male range still sounds very female because the resonance is female.  That's the reason I've put off voice surgery.  Until they can change the resonance, to me it's a waste of money.

Quote from: Amy1988 on May 25, 2015, 08:41:57 PMMale voice is the tuba and the female voice is the trumpet.  It's resonance that make the female voice sound female not pitch. A female with a pitch in the male range still sounds very female because the resonance is female.  That's the reason I've put off voice surgery.  Until they can change the resonance, to me it's a waste of money.

Well, its not exactly like that because you can actually change resonance without surgery. So the tuba can turn into a trumpet ;) - And its not even costing a lot of energy, it needs training and it has to "click" though. And then, voice surgery makes sense, because in my experience so far , not only does it make the effort to use higher pitches a lot easier, it also seems to make resonance switching a lot easier too. So basically it feels more like a trumpet now and this makes it easier to actually use it like a trumpet ;)
But as I said, it has to "click" and Yeson exercises may not be enough for everyone to get there. I see what they are trying to do there, with the humming sound vibrating in the cheeks (forward, projection resonance) and the ng-ah exercises (soft palate training) and the glissandos (transitioning into head voice and then use a mixed voice instead of a pure chest voice with chest resonance). But without feedback of a voice trainer, they only make sens if you already had voice training and know what to watch out for.

Quote from: anjaq on May 26, 2015, 06:28:59 AM
Well, its not exactly like that because you can actually change resonance without surgery. So the tuba can turn into a trumpet ;) - And its not even costing a lot of energy, it needs training and it has to "click" though. And then, voice surgery makes sense, because in my experience so far , not only does it make the effort to use higher pitches a lot easier, it also seems to make resonance switching a lot easier too. So basically it feels more like a trumpet now and this makes it easier to actually use it like a trumpet ;)
But as I said, it has to "click" and Yeson exercises may not be enough for everyone to get there. I see what they are trying to do there, with the humming sound vibrating in the cheeks (forward, projection resonance) and the ng-ah exercises (soft palate training) and the glissandos (transitioning into head voice and then use a mixed voice instead of a pure chest voice with chest resonance). But without feedback of a voice trainer, they only make sens if you already had voice training and know what to watch out for.

Well since many people have done this alone imo the most important point is consistent training.

There are packs available with speech exercises etc.
But people get motivated in the beginning and disillusioned after a few weeks.
So imo it might speed it up some, but it nevertheless takes time.

Its simply that muscles have to be trained, and its important to stop before the voice becomes overstrained. So it simply takes months to get a voice which holds for longer than a few minutes.

What helped some people was to raise their voices some until they feel like a click and are in another register. This might take some time. And its not necessary to go too high like falsetto. For example reading aloud is one method.

In the link above is a software which shows results.
Results can additionally be recorded, played back and analyzed.
And a hand can be laid on the chest in the beginning to feel resonance.

A voice therapist of course can help and avoid errors. But it takes time and persistent training anyways.

hugs

Lots of great advice here..

Definitely falsetto-ing which is why it is feeling unnatural to you, people speak using their chest voice. More important than pitch is pitch dynamic.. a.k.a. bouncing from the medium point in your range to high and back and forth as you speak. This will generate a more natural sound, more emotive.

Resonance is key as well as others have stated. Resonance comes down to vocal tract length, or rather the distance between your mouth and the adams apple a la trumpet vs tuba (tuba has a longer path than a trumpet, it's not necessarily the size/girth).

Resonance exercise: Try *gently* touching your adams apple (thyroid cartilage where your vocal folds are contained) with your index finger, relax all the muscles and feel where it's at. Now as you swallow, notice how it goes up to the top. Then try yawning, you'll notice it go all the way down.

What you want is to learn how to control the muscles that make it move upward as when you swallow. See if you can hold it there and try to speak- you might be shocked by the sound that comes out! Your voice will sound super tiny because vocal tract length is now shorter :) It will take heavy practice before the muscles get stronger to hold it in a more upward position, but they will eventually start to hold it higher by default... to the point where it will feel awkward to have it anywhere else. The body is pretty neat!

Yes, as others have observed, voice sounds strained, and it's not all about pitch.  I think if you tried to open up and relax your throat a bit you might be able to start sounding more natural.

I think experiences vary a lot when it comes to getting resonance right. Some did those exercises where you go up in pitch to falsetto and then let it drop down without falling back into the full resonance again but also not in the falsetto anymore. I believe it is called mixed voice and basically the goal of resonance feminizing voice exercises. For some people it just "clicks" after doing this a few times (I did it that with the Melanie Phillips exercises which are similar to the "CanfiFla" youtube exercises) - others need more time to practice (FYFV-"finding your female voice" is the right apporach then, I believe, as it is basically repetition of doing the same thing over and over again until it sticks).

When it "clicked" for me. It was actually easy to switch back and forth for a while and since I did not switch back after a while, this kind of became harder for me. When I was trying to do a pre-VFS "old voice" recording, it still did not sound like my "male voice". I dropped in pitch really low down into the mid male range for a while, but people still considered it to be a female voice - just a very very low one. Only when I entered the lower male range (below about the C at 130 Hz), the perception really flipped. On the phone, it was harder, admittedly - people seem to put more value on pitch when they listen to a voice on the phone.

The most important part of ALL the voice exercises as well as just speaking regularly is to relax. Dont force anything, dont tighten your muscles until they hurt, dont push your larynx upwards with the hands or strangle yourself with hands or throat muscles. some exercises will tell you to do such things, but make sure you do this just in the exercise that makes you do it, not use it all the time.

Actually after voice surgery, you should be able to relax, be comfortable in that the pitch cannot be wrong, so you should let go of pitch control to a large degree. You can relax your throat muscles, your jaw. Use a lot of air flow like in the lip flutter exercises or look up the "Tietze straw method" (sp?) online - Make sure you rather waste air when making the exercises than conserve air. This is a bit misleading about the Yeson exercises which tell you to hold a note as long as possible and use a stopwatch to get the numbers. That can lead you to hold back too much. Forget that for a moment and just let a lot of air pass your vocal chords. When you have anough airflow, the chords will swing more cleanly.

This is all tons of advice and you are probably overwhelmed, which is why I agree that going to a pro voice therapist is a good way because she can then focus on each aspect seperately and in a sequence ;)

Quote from: anjaq on May 26, 2015, 06:28:59 AM
Well, its not exactly like that because you can actually change resonance without surgery. So the tuba can turn into a trumpet ;) - And its not even costing a lot of energy, it needs training and it has to "click" though. And then, voice surgery makes sense, because in my experience so far , not only does it make the effort to use higher pitches a lot easier, it also seems to make resonance switching a lot easier too. So basically it feels more like a trumpet now and this makes it easier to actually use it like a trumpet ;)

Anja, I'd really like to understand this properly before I go to Yeson. If all the surgery does is to change pitch, then that's not enough for me. I already control my voice and resonance well (my thyroid cartilage goes up as Jenny said it should when I talk). We've talked about this elsewhere. I think I still have male undertones to my voice that I can't control (although no-one really notices), and I thought we agreed that the Yeson surgery removes these? My equation would be: Voice and resonance control + Yeson surgery minus 'undertones' = female voice, whereas at the moment I have: Voice and resonance control + undertones = androgenous voice. And that's without mentioning the vegetative sounds like screaming, sneezing, coughing, and singing. All of those sound male for me at the moment. If Yeson only raises pitch, as many have said it does, how can any of those be improved if I'm already controlling my voice and resonance well? And yet many have said the surgery does affect vegetative sounds and singing. So is it just pitch raising surgery or is there more to it than that? I still don't have an answer.

Quote from: anjaq on May 26, 2015, 06:28:59 AM
Well, its not exactly like that because you can actually change resonance without surgery. So the tuba can turn into a trumpet ;) - And its not even costing a lot of energy, it needs training and it has to "click" though. And then, voice surgery makes sense, because in my experience so far , not only does it make the effort to use higher pitches a lot easier, it also seems to make resonance switching a lot easier too. So basically it feels more like a trumpet now and this makes it easier to actually use it like a trumpet ;)
But as I said, it has to "click" and Yeson exercises may not be enough for everyone to get there. I see what they are trying to do there, with the humming sound vibrating in the cheeks (forward, projection resonance) and the ng-ah exercises (soft palate training) and the glissandos (transitioning into head voice and then use a mixed voice instead of a pure chest voice with chest resonance). But without feedback of a voice trainer, they only make sens if you already had voice training and know what to watch out for.

The analogy is still the same.  If I had to choose between pitch and resonance I would choose resonance.

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 26, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
(my thyroid cartilage goes up as Jenny said it should when I talk).

Please find a voice therapist, at least for a few sessions, before any mistake like this becomes extremly hard to unlearn. You need to learn how to use the right resonance with thyroid cartilage and larynx in NEUTRAL position. Not raising it up to achieve anything... Please people, take voice development seriously and get yourself speech/voice therapist, much like you spend thousands of dollars for pro hair removal, instead of doing it at home for free. When you learn something wrong, even if it is a small mistake, it is that much harder and longer lasting to unlearn... And while speech therapies might be really expensive, an experienced singing teacher can be much more affordable option, and they can still have more than enough knowledge about voice to safely guide you and help you develop your voice.

Hi Sarah

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 26, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
Anja, I'd really like to understand this properly before I go to Yeson. If all the surgery does is to change pitch, then that's not enough for me. I already control my voice and resonance well (my thyroid cartilage goes up as Jenny said it should when I talk). We've talked about this elsewhere. I think I still have male undertones to my voice that I can't control (although no-one really notices), and I thought we agreed that the Yeson surgery removes these? My equation would be: Voice and resonance control + Yeson surgery minus 'undertones' = female voice, whereas at the moment I have: Voice and resonance control + undertones = androgenous voice. And that's without mentioning the vegetative sounds like screaming, sneezing, coughing, and singing. All of those sound male for me at the moment. If Yeson only raises pitch, as many have said it does, how can any of those be improved if I'm already controlling my voice and resonance well? And yet many have said the surgery does affect vegetative sounds and singing. So is it just pitch raising surgery or is there more to it than that? I still don't have an answer.

Its really hard to say this for sure. In my experience the main difference is that it feels like a different musical instrument now, one that is tuned to a higher pitch by a bit (not as much yet as I expected), the undertones have shifted as well, they are not as bassy anymore but maybe more "alto". The resonance has not really changed in principal, but I feel it is easier to settle into a proper resonance control now. Using the "instrument in concert", meaning using the voice loudly and melodically, like in singing or saying some things loudly will come out quite a bit higher and almost where Dr Kim predicted it to be. Again, the undertones have shifted in pitch there as well, so if I sing along with other women I hear no huge difference anymore and it is not costing effort. Burping, coughing are not so much affected by the surgery for me, Sneezing maybe a little bit, laughter definitely has changed a whole lot.

What changes in the surgery is the length and by that the mass of the active vocal fold. This does give a different sound since the pitch of the undertones and the main tones are different and the voice is less "massive". It does not change the resonance body though, that still has to be done by the individual and for that, only voice training of some sort helps.

Quote from: Amy1988 on May 26, 2015, 06:34:21 PM
The analogy is still the same.  If I had to choose between pitch and resonance I would choose resonance.

Thats true. If I can choose both, I will do so though ;)

Quote from: anjaq on May 27, 2015, 09:23:37 AM
Hi Sarah
Its really hard to say this for sure. In my experience the main difference is that it feels like a different musical instrument now, one that is tuned to a higher pitch by a bit (not as much yet as I expected), the undertones have shifted as well, they are not as bassy anymore but maybe more "alto". The resonance has not really changed in principal, but I feel it is easier to settle into a proper resonance control now. Using the "instrument in concert", meaning using the voice loudly and melodically, like in singing or saying some things loudly will come out quite a bit higher and almost where Dr Kim predicted it to be. Again, the undertones have shifted in pitch there as well, so if I sing along with other women I hear no huge difference anymore and it is not costing effort. Burping, coughing are not so much affected by the surgery for me, Sneezing maybe a little bit, laughter definitely has changed a whole lot.

What changes in the surgery is the length and by that the mass of the active vocal fold. This does give a different sound since the pitch of the undertones and the main tones are different and the voice is less "massive". It does not change the resonance body though, that still has to be done by the individual and for that, only voice training of some sort helps.

At 8 weeks post 'll I daredare not sneeze or laugh yet. I also look forward to enenjoying a glass of wine without being overly paranoid.

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 26, 2015, 07:31:24 AM

What you want is to learn how to control the muscles that make it move upward as when you swallow. See if you can hold it there and try to speak- you might be shocked by the sound that comes out! Your voice will sound super tiny because vocal tract length is now shorter :) It will take heavy practice before the muscles get stronger to hold it in a more upward position, but they will eventually start to hold it higher by default... to the point where it will feel awkward to have it anywhere else. The body is pretty neat!

I was trying that but firstly my apple is already high up (and it's pretty small to begin with). I did notice some of my resonance going away though. I need to practice this more. Thanks!

I think in my case I don't have as much of the resonance issues. My main problem is pitch. I already had a natural "head voice" but it is just deep around 130Hz. When I talk I don't feel my chest vibrating.

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 26, 2015, 07:31:24 AM
What you want is to learn how to control the muscles that make it move upward as when you swallow. See if you can hold it there and try to speak- you might be shocked by the sound that comes out! Your voice will sound super tiny because vocal tract length is now shorter :) It will take heavy practice before the muscles get stronger to hold it in a more upward position, but they will eventually start to hold it higher by default... to the point where it will feel awkward to have it anywhere else. The body is pretty neat!

Fantastic advise Jenny - thank you.  Doing that makes a big difference!!!  Once I managed to speak as you described, it sounded a lot better - obviously I will need to practice, practice, practice, but I can hear an improvement already :)  Oh, also, the comments about trying too hard with the pitch seemed accurate - just coming speaking with the larynx raised and not worrying about the pitch sounded better (was speaking about 230 Hz without any effort at all)...

Thanks again for all of the advice and comments - really is appreciated.

Kim xx

Glad it has helped you!

Also Jessie can be particularly helpful, Dr. Kim can probably recommend some exercises of his own.

Best of luck and keep us updated on your progress!

Quote from: kim27 on May 30, 2015, 04:10:52 AM
Fantastic advise Jenny - thank you.  Doing that makes a big difference!!!  Once I managed to speak as you described, it sounded a lot better - obviously I will need to practice, practice, practice, but I can hear an improvement already :)  Oh, also, the comments about trying too hard with the pitch seemed accurate - just coming speaking with the larynx raised and not worrying about the pitch sounded better (was speaking about 230 Hz without any effort at all)...

Thanks again for all of the advice and comments - really is appreciated.

Kim xx

Well its not that much practice... imo important is the consitency, daily.
Its like building up muscles. In the beginning it may not be a long time, but it takes daily exercise over weeks.

hugs

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 30, 2015, 04:17:09 AM
Glad it has helped you!

Also Jessie can be particularly helpful, Dr. Kim can probably recommend some exercises of his own.

Best of luck and keep us updated on your progress!

Good idea about contacting Jessie - thanks again Jenny. 

I wasn't going to post anything yet, as it isn't great, but here is the difference that slowing down and raising the larynx makes - to me it doesn't sound so masculine, so it is definitely a step in the right direction :)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0HVdukwhs3j (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0HVdukwhs3j)

Well, it does sound a very little bit better in resonance, but I think you still are using too much force or tension somehow and you kind of weaken your voice with that. It sounds even more tiny than before. think about female singers, they have strong and booming voices and not speak like tiny mouse. I personally think you should focus absolutely not on pitch, allow it to drop down to wherever it wants to go just for whatever you do here in the group. Dont be scared, it cannot go in a male pitch anymore. And then focus on airflow, use a LOT of air, allow resonance to happen. Maybe do the humming (/mmmmiii/)exercises from Yeson again but do them loudly - don't focus on the time, allow it to be short. Focus on the resonance that you should feel in the cheeks. You lips should be tingling when you use enough air flow when humming and you are relaxing enough. This is really a big part of the whole deal - to relax properly. Relax all the muscles except a very few that change resonance and that control pitch variation.

Another hint is to kind of feel it... a bit more feminine, breathy, soft... it shows in the voice.

Same for passing and mannerism in general... not overdoing it but letting it shine through a bit.

hugs

Can I make a sugestion Kim? You still don't have the intonation of the rainbow passage right when compared to the women with really successful results, and I also think you're trying to push it far too high. Why don't you listen to Jenny's original videos on Youtube and try to emulate the cadence and flow of her version. You need to learn how to be more 'sing songy' to put it crudely, and not worry so much about pitch.

With your second voice sample you're definitely improving, but there is still a way to go.

Sarah.

You should try to take a recording at around 170-180Hz ... Your more natural voice would give us a lot better idea on what aspects you could improve, and how. It's really hard to make a fair observation based on so high pitched recordings.

Some very good suggestions:

-more sing songy (traverse up and down in pitch, it is still sounding a bit locked to one pitch)
-try to continue allowing your voice and throat to relax much more- you should end up speaking at a lower pitch. See if you can keep the average below or at 200hz. It still sounds a bit like you are using a falsetto/head voice

What is your lowest and highest pitch during the lip buzz exercise from low to high? Go slow and take note of the pitch as you move from lowest to highest.

Maybe you can record yourself doing 2 of the Yeson exercises - lip trills and /mmm/ humming while going up and going down in pitch? We could then check your vocal range. (go als low and as high as you can, start at a comfortable pitch and then go as high as you can, start at the high pitch and go as low as you can)

To me it sounds like you are speaking in falsetto, rather than speaking as you would have before transition. Are you actually using falsetto?

No amount of resonance training will make falsetto seem natural sounding with or without the Yeson operation. You'll need to speak as you would have before you transitioned to return to the starting point where resonance control can make a difference to your timbre. That might mean accepting a much lower pitch, but not definitely - I can do falsetto right down to within 4 notes from the bottom of my voice. You might just find you can use the non-falsetto voice at a 200hz+ level comfortably.

With the pitch variation during a sentence, currently you never really drop beyond the pitch you began at - you only vary it up from that point and return to it. I imagine this is because if you go lower your voice will crack out of falsetto into chest voice and you are trying to avoid it?

So the first step is to stop using falsetto and start a lot lower in your chest voice. Then, you need to vary your pitch both up and down from your starting pitch, and by a LOT. I can tell you're in a habit of speaking in monotone and that a big part of that will be because everyone in your area speaks that way to some extent. You're going to need to vary your pitch up and down in a way that seems ridiculously exaggerated when you do it to overcome the cultural practice of staying monotone that you have grown up with. It will be making the women in your area sound relatively masculine compared to women from other areas as well if that's how they speak there. Probably a few cis women there don't pass on the phone as female.

I am 4 months post op. My voice sounds *exactly* the same as before the operation, except now I am not consciously raising my pitch to talk, and I am a bit raspier. Both before and after the op I spoke at about 176hz. I've lost the bottom 4 semitones of my range and falsetto is easier to access so I know nothing has torn or come undone, but the increase in default speaking pitch has only been about 40hz at this point and it really doesn't feel like it will change after being steady for 2 months. My tessatura have not moved - my shifts from chest to head and head to falsetto occur in the same places. I have to admit I am really disappointed by the operation. I already had resonance and prosody down pat and had a passing voice. All the operation did was leave me with the same voice, without one component of effort, which was raising the pitch. I don't find this fundamental speaking pitch level one that makes me feel good about my voice, and I can't raise it because I run out of head voice notes for pitch variation above the fundamental if I do. I'm just really disappointed with the entire thing and at least at this point post-op, if I had the time over, I would have put the money into lipo instead of voice.

Also a question about voice therapists - the one I saw was only interested in producing FULL projection resonance. I didn't find it helpful or practical to use that as it makes me sound like a booming male. Do they all do that or do some acknowledge that full resonance exposes the size of your masculinized resonating cavities and instead focus on tempering the resonance to sound as though it is coming from unmasculinized resonating cavities?

Quote from: seattlesarah on May 31, 2015, 10:23:24 PM

Also a question about voice therapists - the one I saw was only interested in producing FULL projection resonance. I didn't find it helpful or practical to use that as it makes me sound like a booming male. Do they all do that or do some acknowledge that full resonance exposes the size of your masculinized resonating cavities and instead focus on tempering the resonance to sound as though it is coming from unmasculinized resonating cavities?

You probably need a voice therapist who works mainly with people in our situation. In the UK this would be someone like Christella Antoni.

Sarah.

The one I went to was recommended by the gender clinic so idk what to think.

But it's good to hear it confirmed that she wasn't aiming for what therapists normally do with trans women.

I dont like the concept of gender clinics particularly - they claim to be competent and eventually are regarded as the only ones competent enough to deal with trans issues but if they are not good, you dont have the choice anymore to go elsewhere...

Anyways - my voice therapist does a similar thing - aiming at full resonance and projection. She said I do have many of the other parameters right, so she does not do what she usually would do with trans patients. Basically she said my voice is female anyways and her focus is more on me using it correctly, get back loudness and loose breathiness and hoarseness after the surgery. Even pre OP it was like that, and her colleague who shares the rooms with her did not guess I have a voice that once was regarded male - so I think that maybe its ok to focus on these issues and not on resonance that much anymore. Although we actually do some resonance training, mainly by trying to stay in the middle voice a lot, using a full vibration of the vocal chords, but not letting too much mass swing with it.