Susan's Place Transgender Resources

She looks great and should stick in peoples minds. I hope this going to fuel the momentum.

I think we're reaching a critical mass of visibility. There will be a bad reaction followed by eventual acceptance by society. The players are always the same. A new, marginalized group becomes visible. The average person, distanced, gives them no thought. Eventually they stick their necks out. While they're still a novelty most people don't give them a thought. Some prominent people admit to being part of the group. The vast majority are intrigued and titillated. Suddenly, they begin to realize that these people are their sons and daughters, their neighbors. A face is placed on the anonymous group. Some people, going by previous familiarity with individuals in the group, become various levels of ally. Some realize they were part of the group all along. Some people, equating newness and unfamiliarity with evil, are frightened, disgusted. When those people feel threatened enough something bad happens. Before long the entire population is polarized. Over some period of time, years, decades, centuries, the new group becomes part of the background and the reactionaries begin to lose their fear, if not their disgust. A new equilibrium is reached.

Our gay brothers and sisters are deep into this last stage. We're just entering it. No telling how long it will last though. Caitlyn Jenner is a symptom, not necessarily an active agent of change. She doesn't have to do anything other than be to move the process along and neither do we. The reactionaries are trying, intentionally or no, to push us back into the closet. Going in and shutting the door can only delay the inevitable.

Nothing is ever guaranteed, but I think she will help. I think every positive publicly visible trans person helps. Not everyone can or wants to do that, but those that do should be thanked for their efforts (as opposed to attacked, taunted, and torn down, which I have seen in other forums).

I suspect the flood gates are going to open very soon.  The taboo's days are numbered and I think we are about to find out that the actual number of transgender people is much greater than previously thought.

She brings visibility. I'm thankful that there are those who really stick their personal lives out there. I've seen many positive changes over the past couple of decades for gays and lesbians. I"m really happy that they added that T on the GLBT acronym.

Cindi

Already, I feel much more comfortable when I disclose I'm transgender. I get reactions, Oh, like <former name> Jenner. There's less I need to explain.

I think it is a wonderful public image for us. I only dislike the airbrushing in it :(

(it being magazine)

Quote from: Sarah leah on June 01, 2015, 05:29:27 PM
I think it is a wonderful public image for us. I only dislike the airbrushing in it :(

(it being magazine)

All magazines have photohopping and/or airbrushing.  Otherwise celebs would look just as average as you and I.  I mean seriously, who would want to buy a magazine with a fat zit on George Clooney's forehead?

I  could use some airbrushing . I could use her body too as long as we talking about it.

When the speculation first started and Bruce (at the time) was hiding and evading everything I was so worried that the few advances made over the past couple of years would be shot down.

Since the interview and now being Caitlyn openly it will fire up the haters but likely make many people take a second look at the transgender subject.

Quote from: Jill F on June 01, 2015, 04:22:58 PM
I suspect the flood gates are going to open very soon.  The taboo's days are numbered and I think we are about to find out that the actual number of transgender people is much greater than previously thought.

I'm going with the 1 in 20 or 5% of the population estimate.  Wanna start a pool?  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Jill F on June 01, 2015, 04:22:58 PM
I suspect the flood gates are going to open very soon.  The taboo's days are numbered and I think we are about to find out that the actual number of transgender people is much greater than previously thought.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 01, 2015, 06:08:52 PM
I'm going with the 1 in 20 or 5% of the population estimate.  Wanna start a pool?  :)

I'll take a more conservative number, like 1 in 100

I'm happy for her but I'm already seeing lots of negative reaction, misgendering and bad jokes. Visibility may be good but I'm scared at the same time.

Today, I was unfortunately stuck in a shuttle with the radio on. Jenner came up, and the banter could have been more respectful. Seriously, when she actually does go through the "big unveiling" with a female name and a decidedly female presentation on the cover of a hugely popular magazine, radio personalities have no business using slash terms (I think it was "him/her" in this case). Still, it could have been much worse.

I'm always uncomfortable when someone in the public eye comes out. The publicity tends to be a mixed blessing. I hope that in the long run, it will be only a blessing. But I'm not holding my breath. I think the community needs more high-profile disclosures.

One thing she has going for her--and we do, too--is that she was an icon of masculine physicality and maleness. That, I believe, will make some people think about what's really going on in trans people's minds and hearts. On the other hand, I think that Jenner's past opens her up to more vitriol from haters than she would otherwise experience. I just hope that more enlightened people are willing to challenge them and shut them down and expose them as the ignorant bigots they really are.

We'll have to wait and see. But whatever the outcome, I'm grateful that I'm not one of these public figures. I would rather work quietly and subtly behind the scenes whenever the opportunity arises.

Quote from: Arch on June 01, 2015, 06:53:10 PM
One thing she has going for her--and we do, too--is that she was an icon of masculine physicality and maleness. That, I believe, will make some people think about what's really going on in trans people's minds and hearts. On the other hand, I think that Jenner's past opens her up to more vitriol from haters than she would otherwise experience. I just hope that more enlightened people are willing to challenge them and shut them down and expose them as the ignorant bigots they really are.

That part actually scares me the most. A bunch of manly men from that time chose Bruce as a hero for their sons (my father being one of them). With this transition, what my father deems to be core traits of masculinity, have been ripped to shreds, which means the standard my father uses to compare himself to as a man, no longer exists. It's messed his day up pretty good and not in a good way. I'm sure he's not the only one that now finds himself in this position.

Oh, shredding stereotypical models is a great thing for our society. It tends to sort out and expose the bigots.

;)

Cindi

I am with the possibly will... because the profile of Caitlyn will be high and forefront, but not sure on overall acceptance levels. A lot of folks have been, unwittingly, indoctrinated with biased or bigotry views, whilst Caitlyn Jenner will probably pull down some of that it probably won't necessarily change the world.

But fully agree with Jill and Devlyn regarding the numbers of folk that will come-out or admit who they are will be high, however I would estimate that the numbers would be more like 1 in the 100's, but of course just saying or actually feeling and meaning it? A lot of folks may just want the fame?
So, I think of true closeted folks I would say maybe 1 in 200 just to keep the idea of a pool going  :P

Cindi, given my opening paragraph... so agree this may well be the case, lets just hope

L Katy :-*

It seems to have lit some sort of fire.  What's Pat Robertson spewing on the tv?

Quote from: stephaniec on June 01, 2015, 07:34:50 PM
What's Pat Robertson spewing on the tv?

Drool?

Quote from: Emileeeee on June 01, 2015, 07:08:28 PM
That part actually scares me the most. A bunch of manly men from that time chose Bruce as a hero for their sons (my father being one of them). With this transition, what my father deems to be core traits of masculinity, have been ripped to shreds, which means the standard my father uses to compare himself to as a man, no longer exists. It's messed his day up pretty good and not in a good way. I'm sure he's not the only one that now finds himself in this position.

I find it so ironic that so many men's sense of masculinity is so fragile that can be threatened by a transwoman merely existing.   In my book, true machismo should be unfazed and perhaps even reinforced by such things.  A truly confident man would be defending her all day long.

Yes. Already here in Cincinnati there have been tons of transgender stories (albeit some not so good) being talked about that otherwise would be swept under the rug. This brings awareness, which makes it talked about, which eventually gets talked about so much that people just stop caring to make a fuss over it.

Quote from: iKate on June 01, 2015, 06:40:54 PM
I'm happy for her but I'm already seeing lots of negative reaction, misgendering and bad jokes. Visibility may be good but I'm scared at the same time.

I'm positive about the overall effect Jenner's transition will have, and also not a bit surprised by garbage like this Fox News coverage (dubbed "ultra tasteless" by Salon). It hits all of iKate's negative points above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSvlI6K8n4

Well it's all over my Facebook wall now. It's interesting to see who I'll still be friends with in a few months when I do the post there. I'm not unfriending the haters just yet. I'm kind of banking on the possibility that their view will change when they find out someone they've known all their lives is one of them.

I just popped over to a conservative web site and made some quick shots at some really dumb statements. We are not going to win over the really messed up CIS that are out there any time soon. They are comfortable in their cocoon of ignorance and will remain there for a long time. The place I went to currently as about 160 post with most of them having the ignorance level of the dark ages. Fortunately for them, they will never feel our pain. Unfortunately their children will as one post said his treatment would be to give the child proper guidance. I hope that child will someday be able to forgive it's parents.

I hope so. she may not change the world's view of transgender people, but if she changes at least one person's perspective of the trans community then that's amazing.

people aren't typically used to correctly gendering, especially with someone they have know all their lives by, what is now, the incorrect form. I really didn't see much in this that was hateful or condescending. To be honest what I see is the "reach" to paint Fox news as the "evil one" Did you all see the fantastic coverage on their show "the Five"?

  Possible. Wait one year and find out June 1, 2016 if anything changes towards us. Hopefully things will change for the better for us then despite the negative comments from Faux News and other outlets.

Joelene

Quote from: Eveline on June 01, 2015, 09:11:52 PM
I'm positive about the overall effect Jenner's transition will have, and also not a bit surprised by garbage like this Fox News coverage (dubbed "ultra tasteless" by Salon)...

Ultra tasteless was Dr. Phil's comment, "What's the point, Bruce, you're almost 80." Later today, Fox News' most influential commentators, Megyn Kelly and Bill O'Reilly both endorsed Caitlyn's announcement as courageous and congruent with American ideals.

-AshleyP

My view is this. Caitlyn is a person not an icon. Shes living her life and imo shes fabulous but its not her job to be an example. People may look at her and open their mind about the trans community...or they may become even more close minded. Just live and let live

The media infotainment industry exploit who and whatever works for them as a business.  It long ago ceased to be journalism.

I watched CNN for a few minutes tonight and they had a guy on who regretted their transition and was supposedly cautioning Caitlyn about it.  Right, so this guy wrote a book about his regrets and only to happy to sell it too.  Sheesh another shill, that helped me shut the box off for the night. 

Caitlyn has the opportunity to capitalize on her story and hopefully open some minds too.  Just hope the storyline doesn't obscure the buzz kill challenges that face the less privileged, the other 99%.

Yes! YES! YES!

Madonna once said , not quote on quote, that the reason she does what she does is that once society sees its enough its no longer shocking or look at so horribly... society then accepts. Like numbing them down.

These guys I know were laughing about her hardcore yesterday... then compare her to Chelsea Manning.... but it needs to be more expose.

Quote from: Eveline on June 01, 2015, 09:11:52 PM
I'm positive about the overall effect Jenner's transition will have, and also not a bit surprised by garbage like this Fox News coverage (dubbed "ultra tasteless" by Salon). It hits all of iKate's negative points above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQSvlI6K8n4

While that is bad, to be fair it is also coming from people like Jamie Foxx who was in the news recently for making offensive trans themed jokes about Jenner before she came out as Caitlyn.

Quote from: Joelene9 on June 01, 2015, 10:26:41 PM
  Possible. Wait one year and find out June 1, 2016 if anything changes towards us. Hopefully things will change for the better for us then despite the negative comments from Faux News and other outlets.

Joelene

I just want ENDA passed so I don't have to worry about being fired in any state for being who I am. An all inclusive one, not just one protecting sexual orientation.

Similar cultural tremors happened when celebs came out as gay. Homosexuality still isn't universally accepted but it's mostly there. I Imagine what Jenner has done will ultimately help not hinder - she looks great in that magazine shoot and she is being very open and honest about herself..

I overheard my kids teacher talking about it with a colleague. It seemed to be a mixed reaction. She was disgusted by all the gory details but she said she's glad he's happy. And yes she misgendered her extensively.

all is good, but just like with all the unveiling of heroes there will be increase in FFS surgery within our community. I hope the expectations will be cautiously conservative. The surgery Caitlin had was quite extensive and aggressive, and I'm sure quite costly.
As to the image of a trans woman, any visibility is welcome, as it transforms taboo into normalcy, yet one fact remains, the most successful trans woman out there are the ones no one hears about as they live normal uneventful, basic life's.
there will always be the two fold to the transforming, on one hand greater freedom so necessary to human experience, and those who decide on remaining within trans spectrum, and on the other, totality of immersion, living life in its fullest while believing in nothing short of destination womanhood.

Quote from: Marly on June 01, 2015, 10:21:27 PM
people aren't typically used to correctly gendering, especially with someone they have know all their lives by, what is now, the incorrect form. I really didn't see much in this that was hateful or condescending. To be honest what I see is the "reach" to paint Fox news as the "evil one" Did you all see the fantastic coverage on their show "the Five"?

It took me awhile to find it - here's the link to the comments on Fox News "The Five": http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/06/01/andrea-tantaros-more-courageous-jenner-come-out-conservative-caitlyn

I guess for Fox, this isn't too bad if you ignore the misgendering and "plastic" comments...

Eric Bolling used the wrong name, misgendered Caitlyn, and you cannot isolate Bolling's current comments from his prior extreme transphobia.

Fox News also regularly hosts Dr. Keith Ablow who says anyone transgender is "insane".

Note also that "The Five" continued to subtly shove the "it's a choice" meme out there. Again, Eric Bolling: "He wants to be a boy or girl, knock yourself out." It's part of the right wing narrative.

It was better than the usual transphobic drivel from Fox (men in dresses in the bathroom!!!!) but not that much better.

I am no expert on Caitlyn in any way and I have no idea what her agenda is other than living authentic which is what we are all aspiring and doing at some level.

Two quotes come to mind off the top of my head. I have no idea who said them however I think they apply here in the fullness of time IMHO :)

"There is no such thing as bad press"

She has chosen a certain approach for her own reasons and in the end I think she will have a positive impact eventually and if nothing else to hopefully educate those that are at least willing to learn and be open. She is familiar while being front and center and I am sure we only see a small portion of what her life is like and the stuff she is going to deal with. It took a lot of courage and personal conviction to be so open and on display. I can only admire and respect her for that.

"Better to have people think you are a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

This one is directed towards the media coverage and how they choose to cover this land mark social human event. History and social fallout hopefully will be their judge and legacy in the end even if it takes a while as the general shift and trends is to more acceptance for LGBTQ people.

I hope Caitlyn all the best and may her journey continue in a positive and forward direction to internal peace and happiness.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 01, 2015, 04:41:52 PM
Already, I feel much more comfortable when I disclose I'm transgender. I get reactions, Oh, like <former name> Jenner. There's less I need to explain.

This. I came out to my mom last night and she mentioned her. I feel like I had to do a lot less explaining or even just laying the groundwork for understanding, as the issue had already been floating around in her mind. While my coming out was still out of left field, it wasn't coming from outside the ballpark or something.

And really, that's huge. The more the general public can see that we're just normal people trying to be happy the easier our lives are going to be. Less circus freak, more person who's been dealt a rough hand in life. It humanizes us as a group.

Quote from: innainka on June 02, 2015, 09:34:19 AM
all is good, but just like with all the unveiling of heroes there will be increase in FFS surgery within our community. I hope the expectations will be cautiously conservative. The surgery Caitlin had was quite extensive and aggressive, and I'm sure quite costly.
As to the image of a trans woman, any visibility is welcome, as it transforms taboo into normalcy, yet one fact remains, the most successful trans woman out there are the ones no one hears about as they live normal uneventful, basic life's.
there will always be the two fold to the transforming, on one hand greater freedom so necessary to human experience, and those who decide on remaining within trans spectrum, and on the other, totality of immersion, living life in its fullest while believing in nothing short of destination womanhood.

I'd love to have that kind of money just to spend on clothes. It's her money though she's worked for it, but it would be nice.

Yes, and no. At least now no one can say they don't know a transwoman. Unless they live in a cave. Cave people can say whatever they want in their caves though...


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Obfuskatie on June 02, 2015, 12:06:19 PM
Yes, and no. At least now no one can say they don't know a transwoman. Unless they live in a cave. Cave people can say whatever they want in their caves though...


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yea, the conversations of the men around the poker table drinking shots and beers and the subject of athletes comes up.

one thing that's pretty cool is that she's older than me. Gives me strength .

I think/hope it will do good in the long run, but I'm a little bit nervous about some aspects of it, and I hope the focus moves away from Caitlyn Jenner to the struggles of less famous and wealthy trans people, but I get the feeling that this is going to play out very much in public. If she uses this time to highlight some of the crap trans people go through she could do a lot of good. But I don't know much about her or what kind of person she is; I've intentionally avoided the Kardashian clan as they represent everything I hate about celebrity culture.

Quote from: Squircle on June 02, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
I think/hope it will do good in the long run, but I'm a little bit nervous about some aspects of it, and I hope the focus moves away from Caitlyn Jenner to the struggles of less famous and wealthy trans people, but I get the feeling that this is going to play out very much in public. If she uses this time to highlight some of the crap trans people go through she could do a lot of good. But I don't know much about her or what kind of person she is; I've intentionally avoided the Kardashian clan as they represent everything I hate about celebrity culture.

Well, yeah, the whole Kardashian thing scares me but, despite that, this is a watershed moment and a very teachable one for most folks. Already, I would gather that there are millions of people who now realize the proper use of the pronouns. (In fact, on CNN, a guy was corrected by the moderator when he referred to Jenner as "he.")
And even before the switch to Caitlin, most journalists that I read pointed out theat Jenner was going by male pronouns. So, in fact, I think we have laready seen change.

Will we see the same kind of shift that happened on the same-sex marriage issue say, ten years from now? Only time will tell. The odd thing about this issue is that many people (like myself) who are trans don't publicly identify as such. (I identify as female) I am rethinking this, however, that, perhaps, stealth is no longer necessary or desirable.

Quote from: stephaniec on June 02, 2015, 11:53:23 AM
I'd love to have that kind of money just to spend on clothes. It's her money though she's worked for it, but it would be nice.

Yes and the surgeries she has had. Having Annie Liebovitz as your photographer doesn't hurt either. (I am not all that impressed by the face work she had done BTW)

Quote from: innainka on June 02, 2015, 09:34:19 AM
all is good, but just like with all the unveiling of heroes there will be increase in FFS surgery within our community. I hope the expectations will be cautiously conservative. The surgery Caitlin had was quite extensive and aggressive, and I'm sure quite costly.
As to the image of a trans woman, any visibility is welcome, as it transforms taboo into normalcy, yet one fact remains, the most successful trans woman out there are the ones no one hears about as they live normal uneventful, basic life's.
there will always be the two fold to the transforming, on one hand greater freedom so necessary to human experience, and those who decide on remaining within trans spectrum, and on the other, totality of immersion, living life in its fullest while believing in nothing short of destination womanhood.

Agreed.

Latest comment from a "friend" misgenders her extensively and said she's still not a woman because she is pre op and has a deep voice. And that's a nice version of what this fool said. But he still says he "supports" me. What the duck is wrong with people???

voice does not woman make, nor does the ...
But, unfortunately, that's something a lot of people will be very slow to accept. Changes in the visual and audial serve a perceptual purpose. Bit being female (or male for the FTM's) is internal..and real..no matter the perceptual status.

I'm no fan of anyone in that family, but I don't like Caitlyn Jenner's photographs being used to ridicule another woman's looks.

Quote from: iKate on June 02, 2015, 04:30:03 PM
Latest comment from a "friend" misgenders her extensively and said she's still not a woman because she is pre op and has a deep voice. And that's a nice version of what this fool said. But he still says he "supports" me. What the duck is wrong with people???

I just had to unfriend two people on Facebook for stuff like this related to Caitlyn. They were spouting off hate while occasionally inserting the phrase "I'm not judging them". Hypocrite much? It's a shame because we have a small team at work and that was two of them. I guess coming out at work won't be as uneventful as I expected.

I'm not exactly sure what the trans revolution is (more people transitioning, better medical coverage, legal protections or greater acceptance) but I don't expect that the Caitlyn Jenner story will speed it along.  The problem as I see it is that both cis and non-cis alike cant keep up with the ever changing social/gender landscape that includes transsexuals for example a month ago I only heard the term LBGT then a couple weeks ago I heard the term LBGTQ then a week ago I was reading on the forum here some one used LGBTI then I read another post use LGBTIQ and another LGBTIH and still another GSM which I had to look up when I found that there is also a GSRM and GSD at this point I was confused then I read even another post that had LBGT with what looked like half the alphabet behind it (when and acronym gets to be over 6 characters in length I sort of just ignore it and read on)... I guess my point is that I'm having a hard time keeping up and I actually have an interest in it what is some one who isn't interested in it going to think... will they take the time to even try to follow along and be supportive or will they just give up and fall back into their old habits and views.   

Yes, I think it will speed up the trans revolution. I have also seen other stories about trans people in the news recently including children.

I'm sure this will bring the bigots crawling out of woodwork and make the TV preachers a little more rabid than usual at the prospect of increasing trans* acceptance, now that Caitlyn is for real and in their living rooms and not a freak or phony tabloid story. This is good because it shows people were not weirdos or freaks  and it shows people that no matter how hard you try, you cannot just "man up' and make the trans go away as though it were like being out of shape.

I sincerely think this will be a positive for the whole community.  It was necessary for someone high-profile to take this step because we kind of need a figurehead.  Of course there have been some hurtful comments and jokes made about Caitlyn, but the information is still so fresh in peoples minds that I think the public is going through a small adjustment period. 

Also, I think her doing a show alongside the Kardashians will be another really good thing; yes, its "The Kardashians," but the thing is that their fame is far-reaching and their audience wide.  We certainly associate that family with vanity and superficiality, but the thing we have to remember is that they are indeed a family and they have trials just like everyone else.  Watching this story play out on both sides of the field in a public fashion is going to be a very positive thing for our community because the general population needs to see it.  Will it be theatrical?  Oh you better believe it.  Will there be highly scripted moments?  For sure.  At the end of the day, it is important to remember that they are now members of our community whether they wanted to be or not and we should be as warm and welcoming to them as we are to any newcomer.  It is easy to forget that they are actual human beings because of the significant level of wealth they have attained, but we do need to remind ourselves that the 'T' word is an indiscriminate wrecking ball; you don't get to pick and choose how your life is affected by coming out, you just have to roll with the punches and deal with it the best you can, which is what I believe the Kardashians have been attempting to do. 

The show is certainly a guilty pleasure of mine, but the level of genuine humanity in it has spiked dramatically since Bruce did his final interview with Diane Sawyer.  They are trying and that is plainly evident to this girl.  Hate them because they are filthy rich, but love them because they are sharing such a beautiful story with the world. 

Just one girls thoughts. 

-Ana 

I think that she has definitely made an impact on the transgender community 

I think our community should use this to gain more momentum. We need to have several trans themed television series of some kind; Will and Grace was a huge success for LGB folks. We need more trans politicians, and an openly Transgender person as a national news anchor for a major TV network would be nice too.

Quote from: Squircle on June 02, 2015, 04:48:55 PM
I'm no fan of anyone in that family, but I don't like Caitlyn Jenner's photographs being used to ridicule another woman's looks.

In all fairness, that's just a bad picture of Kris Jenner; she's actually very pretty.

Quote from: Squircle on June 02, 2015, 04:48:55 PM
I'm no fan of anyone in that family, but I don't like Caitlyn Jenner's photographs being used to ridicule another woman's looks.

Good point - Deriding image removed

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on June 02, 2015, 03:10:48 PMThe odd thing about this issue is that many people (like myself) who are trans don't publicly identify as such. (I identify as female) I am rethinking this, however, that, perhaps, stealth is no longer necessary or desirable.

I believe this is the most important thing that can happen. While stealth or no stealth has to be (and is) an individual choice, and while I would not tell anyone how to make that choice, I applaud every person who chooses to be open about having transitioned, simply because if we all live in stealth, people will remain clueless about what trans* actually is, and their primary source or knowledge will still be media.

Personally I've chosen to neither attract attention towards it, nor to deny it. If it comes up naturally, then I'm fine with that. If not, and if I see no reason to bring it up, I'm just a normal woman with a somewhat deep voice. This is partly due to simply not having the energy to cover up my past, and not least the fact that I refuse to separate from family and good friends. And as long as I mix old and new circles and family, maintaining stealth is practically impossible. But it's also a choice I made to be visible, hopefully helping to 'normalize' being trans in people's minds. Once transgender people are people you meet in your everyday life, not just read about in media, it's a lot more difficult to write it off as publicity stunts and the like. I know for a fact that many in my family have changed attitudes after I came out; for them, trans* suddenly became tangible, something which affects people, people they love.

That said, I realize that for many, who live in bad neighborhoods or work in businesses where attitudes may be hostile, stealth is a survival measure. And obviously, I don't want people to risk their lives or economy. However, then at least I, who study at a liberal university and live in a city where people generally live and let live, can help increase visibility, and hopefully it will be a tiny, tiny contribution to future changes in societal attitude. Because we will not become 'normal' (I hate that word, but it's how many people think) in people's minds, unless those of us who are privileged enough to live openly, do so.

Sadly it's a big ole NOPE from me. Why, because now when anyone, even those of us who started transitioning before this, will suddenly be compared to her, or we are going to end up with a famous name thrown in to the your just looking for attention, just like ___________ was when they went on 20/20 and all of those magazines.

Face it yall....the this is probably the closest to mainstream acceptance were ever going to get... But hey, at least we can't get tossed into an asylum anymore!!!


But in two states it is actually grounds for a family member to have the police confiscate your guns because of a mental illness.

Yes, possibly. At the very least I think it helps solidify the path we are already on. I dunno about speeding it up, though. People need time to digest cultural change, and more importantly it has yet to be seen how far she will go with it as far as becoming an activist for the trans community.

On that note, I have no expectation of her to do anything but lead a happy life. But, holy heck do I appreciate that she is going through this in the public eye. That alone is noteworthy to me.

Agreed, I think she is rather brave and I applaud her for that

I think it will definitely help in the long run. The mainstream media now has someone who was famous before their transition. In that way it is much more similar to our lives (minus caitlyn's extreme privilege) because most trans celebs we only see who they are post transition, where our families and friends see us before and hopefully after. Caitlyn being accepted as a women in the media despite being seen as male for so long I think will help families to be more open minded towards that kind of thing

Quote from: iKate on June 02, 2015, 04:30:03 PM
Latest comment from a "friend" misgenders her extensively and said she's still not a woman because she is pre op and has a deep voice. And that's a nice version of what this fool said. But he still says he "supports" me. What the duck is wrong with people???

It's called being two-faced and there are lots of people like that, unfortunately. I try to keep my distance from those....


And I am wondering that as these famous people are out more and more if it will affect many trans women's ability to be stealth in the future if they so choose.

I think it already has in someways just from her being so famous which can help us all. The fact is it allows people to see what were like before and after that transition point which is something most have never seen or known and as a result their ignorance is all they had to work from. It's bit harder to be that way when you have heard and seen this transition happen practically over night considering the amount of time between the interview and these photos. Hugs
Mariah

It pains me to read the comments when the news stations post about trans issues, positive upbeat ones or not a huge majority of the comments are awful, nasty and hateful!

I am however very very happy for Caitlyn! And omg! Who wouldn't jump at the chance to have a photo shoot down by Annie Leibovitz! Sigh me up :)

This will definitely progress one thing for sure is that the issue now matter whether we like it or not is now in the general publics minds. For now most likely of course there is going to be resistance to this due to ignorance and the big fear of change. The funky part about all this really is and as I have read many times over the average transgender really wants this to be done in peace aka in stealth for fear of ridicule, abuse, etc Yet in the long haul I can see this as being a good thing once the dust does settle. The old adage of must break a few eggs to make an omelette fits all too well unfortunately its not eggs being broken but people.

For now it will show the open minded people and the apposing I cant handle this fear so it must be wrong side. In time I hope it will settle to a state of more normalcy but for now its a minefield but it is something we need to educate the public. I do hope somewhere in this docuseries  that Caitlyn Jenner does impart the idea that many transgender will not go through this in the same way at all as far as the media attention and privilege she has that would make a huge difference in itself. Not saying her transition would be easier in ways it would be much harder but no matter what it would be different even to some degree on the personal level.

The debate can also bring out the contrarian perspective as this opinion was just published in the Wall Street Journal. The headline is, "Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution" by Dr. Paul McHugh a former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital. A sort of back-to-the-sixties perspective.

-AshleyP

EDIT: Removed links to year-old news article not in accordance with posting guidelines

Quote from: AshleyP on June 03, 2015, 03:17:45 PM
The debate can also bring out the contrarian perspective as this opinion was just published in the Wall Street Journal. The headline is, "Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution" by Dr. Paul McHugh a former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital. A sort of back-to-the-sixties perspective.

-AshleyP

OMG what a load of subjective nonsense that article reveals!  We can be grateful that man, who likely never heard of the WPATH standards, is safely retired.

Ok don't shoot me but there is one thing I do agree on is that the hormonal/surgery is not the total solution there is a mental component. I realize I am just in the start so my opinion might change but from how I see it the issue Is complex due to it is not entirely the physical nor is it entirely mental its a mix of both.  Unfortunately doctors go do school for mental or physical side of medicine not both which there in lies the problem if they don't work together. Which of course makes research into it a bit lopsided one way with out accounting for the whole picture and its many permutations of what it really is if that makes any sense.

Just an observation really in that research tends to oversimplify a bigger picture and things get misdiagnosed if you will.

Quote from: AshleyP on June 03, 2015, 03:17:45 PM
The debate can also bring out the contrarian perspective as this opinion was just published in the Wall Street Journal. The headline is, "Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution" by Dr. Paul McHugh a former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital. A sort of back-to-the-sixties perspective.

-AshleyP

EDIT: Removed links to year-old news article not in accordance with posting guidelines

Any issue will bring out pros and cons.  A woman on CNN the other night reasoned that "God's plan" did not countenance "mutilating" one's body parts. (I wonder why the moderator didn't bring up the thousands of people who modify their body (plastic surgery) merely for cosmetic purposes, a practice that is almost universally accepted. We (the LGBT community) won the marriage equality debate. I feel confident we can win this debate as swell. But it will not happen overnight.

I am hoping we get the same movement of opinion that occurred on the marriage equality issue:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F03%2F26%2Fus%2Fpolitics%2Ffivethirtyeight-0326-marriage2%2Ffivethirtyeight-0326-marriage2-blog480.png&hash=17382c2d04d5eb296c2eb56882e60b5bb76e7b4e)

Quote from: kariann330 on June 03, 2015, 07:04:34 AM
But in two states it is actually grounds for a family member to have the police confiscate your guns because of a mental illness.

Gender dysphoria is NOT considered a mental illness according to the current DSM.

I had a family member repost that Johns Hopkins thing that also happened to be on a religious website. I read the whole thing and it did have some interesting points in it, but the idea that surgery isn't the answer really made me angry and worried that people with no actual knowledge from anybody that's actually trans would take it as the law of the land. Years ago I might have been hopeful reading it. Now it worries me that there are people out there that think the way to cure me is to remove me from the equation. It took me too long to accept this for me to accept someone trying to change who I am at the core as a viable option.

My parents seemed to really understand- it helped that this story was shared by someone that they've known and taken an interest in before she announced that she is transgender. I think this is a great step, a good look into transitioning (albeit everyone's journey is different)- it's increasing the scope of the community, people -want to know- and are not necessarily afraid of it anymore.

We're moving towards a point where having a transsexual history as a woman will not matter. We're not there yet but a lot has happened in the last two years alone.

And that is how I see myself - a woman who has a transsexual history. I am also not "stealth" but neither do I flaunt that I have that trans history. I won't deny it if it comes up but in general I ignore it, like other women ignore past health issues unless that topic comes up.

The transphobic are on the loose though so keep your guard up. They are starting to notice that some of their friends and family is supporting Mrs Jenner and that is gonna piss them of.

Here is a hateful message I got from someone who I told to get the f#@k of my friends post she shared (she is trans too). Transphobia Ahead Trigger Warnings



"The whole world is laughing at him. And you too if you think that is any kind of Normal.Dna Does not Lie. No matter how many Plastic  Quack Doctors chop on a body you are still what your Born. Thanks for showing me what an Idiot You are. So I can get rid of ya !!"


This guy is such a stupid ass that he didn't even realize that we weren't friends to begin with and I have an anonymous Facebook profile so there is literally no way he could get rid of me.

It always blows my mind when I go into one of my idealist modes and think how really simple humanity could create  a human experience that was truly mind blowing , but we don't.

What I'm noticing is that most people that were on the fence over trans issues have made a choice to support us. With more visibility of the trans community there will be more visibility of the haters as well. The haters are showing their true colors publicly now because their ignorance is forcing them to try to defend the "norms". When in fact we've known all along that there is no true normal just people.

In my life the Jenner story has helped me out a bit. Its allowed me to see who is a possible ally and who I should avoid. Considering I'm not out yet to many co workers and family its also given me a chance to defend who we are and educate them. I think we are finally seeing a shift in public opinion in our favor, but I think we need more time to see a universal acceptance.

One thing that is undeniable is that anyone over the age of 30 knows who Bruce Jenner was, so now that she has come out to the world, and in such dramatic fashion...people have a frame of reference for transgender people. Whether we like it or not, Caitlyn is making a sizable impact and is part of the zeitgeist.

i, too, think she is incredibly brave. The amount of media attention and pressure is hard to comprehend. Her trans journey is very unique to her, but I relate on some core levels.

Quote from: Sophie Lou on June 05, 2015, 02:02:49 PM
One thing that is undeniable is that anyone over the age of 30 knows who Bruce Jenner was, so now that she has come out to the world, and in such dramatic fashion...people have a frame of reference for transgender people. Whether we like it or not, Caitlyn is making a sizable impact and is part of the zeitgeist.

i, too, think she is incredibly brave. The amount of media attention and pressure is hard to comprehend. Her trans journey is very unique to her, but I relate on some core levels.

I couldn't agree more Sophie. I got the opportunity to provide a few "hints" to my sister over the weekend by mentioning Caitlyn. I left with a good feeling that, when I do come out to her completely, she will be accepting, if not fully supportive.

you say you want a revolution?
https://youtu.be/gR9JMwzxybE

Quote from: kittenpower on June 08, 2015, 08:42:54 PM
you say you want a revolution?
https://youtu.be/gR9JMwzxybE

You aint gonna to make it with anyone any how.

A friend sent me a link to an article from a Jamaican newspaper about Jenner. The comments were as expected for Jamaica. Don't read if you don't have stomach for it. I won't link it but look for "Caitlyn Jenner" in the Jamaica observer. Needless to say TRIGGER WARNING.

Trust me I am so glad I do not live there.

I voted no, because a celebrity transition doesn't somehow validate trans people. Society is still going to judge each of us individually based on our looks and merits.

What I think will happen is we will see an increase in openly trans and apparently trans individuals. The stealthy gals will more or less be happy to remain stealthy and when they as trans representatives are out of sight, they are out of mind. Society will dwell on the cross-section of trans persons that *are* visible which means the rest of us.

Am I right? or wrong?

idk. its just like any other revolution. I see it getting worse from this point, a total hellstorm, than after getting many of use who don't want to get involved or those of us who rather live our lives undisturbed, into this hellstorm, than there is a possibility that things might change. so i don't really know.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

Well I was glad for it, because I knew my parents would see. They are coming along with accepting me now, so any public support like this is a good help.

The flipside of Caitlyn's tabloid appearance is it will be here today, and gone tomorrow. She is already an 'old news story' as far as the mass media are concerned.

That being said I'd like to check out her new show, if she does one :~)

Her transition in such a public way has already helped me.
I was texting with my ex asking how my kids were dealing with the sudden death of a close family friend and she said they were in denial about it. She has scheduled a session with a counselor. I then came out to her on my transgender issue and she said "I don't know what that means." I reference Caitlyn. She was a bit taken aback, but didn't react negatively. I asked if she could bring that up when they went to counseling and she was thinking the same thing.
So Caitlyn's transition has made for a shorthand when explaining to people.
The other nice thing is on Facebook, I can see that I must have good taste in friends as the majority have expressed support for Caitlyn, and for those who don't, I can use it to help educate.
I've only come out to a select few, but it has given me some confidence that I won't lose a lot of my friends. The fear in my head is almost always worse then the reality.



Ella

I was surprised. I don't recall any references whatsoever to Caitlyn Jenner among my Facebook friends. No positive comments, no negative comments. Nothing about the Duggars, either. My friends must not be hooked into current pop culture. Neither am I.

Last night, I had a personal moment where Caitlyn Jenner's coming out changed things for me.

I took my daughter and her husband to dinner for her birthday. This was the first time he had seen me since I transitioned and he thought I looked great and that I was "so much happier" than before.

My daughter has told her teenage daughter about me and I get to see her rarely but I can't go over to my daughter's house because she had not told her younger son (10 years old). She's been slowly trying to explain the entire LGBT thing but wasn't sure it was sticking with him, especially about trans people.

When Caitlyn Jenner came out, it was all over TV and the news. My grandson asked about this and she explained how Caitlyn was trans and she showed her son pictures of Caitlyn before transition, explaining that Caitlyn had been one of the most famous athletes in the world years ago.

She then told me that he looked at the before picture, looked at the after picture, and said "She's pretty!" She asked him what he thought of this. He replied "If that's what she has to do to be happy then she should!" (He gendered her correctly from the outset. Happy!)

Such a positive response almost had her tell him right then and there. But she's going to delay a bit longer, because she's spending some vacation time with my wife's family and all of them have rejected me. She said she just didn't want her son bringing it up with "those people" and her having to fight about the issue for a couple weeks while visiting.

So she's going to tell him when they get back from that vacation, which is about the time I head to Thailand for my GRS surgery, but she affirmed to me that "When you get back, he'll know, and we want you to start coming over again and just hanging out with us, having dinner, and such."

I was thrilled. And this happened because Caitlyn Jenner was a positive topic in the news.

I realize this is anecdotal and not statistical across a wide body of people, but for me this was important, and for me, Caitlyn Jenner's coming out has turned into a personal blessing.

I initially said the revelation would be positive by and large, but then I read Elinor Burkett's highly visible transphobic piece in the New York Times, which is reactionary TERF rhetoric that many commenters viewed as 'refreshing' and 'clarifying.' Fortunately, there has been a backlash against Burkett, but what is dangerous to me is the fact that the illogical, circular, essentialist, TERF reasoning of this article was so widely embraced by readers of the NYT, a paper that is not exactly FOX News. I have linked the piece here if you want to check it out. I still think the Jenner narrative is positive for us in the big picture, but the backlash is certainly with us on both the left and the right, as these conservative transphobic ideas are being embraced by 'liberals.'

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,190134.0.html

EDIT: Replace external link with link to news thread

-------- Trigger warning ------

I admit there is some valid points and some not so valid points. Ok don't demonize me but as a mtf I will never experience a period which is a womens right of passage. But there was some comments made in that article that were contradictory too such as I am a woman because fear of being attacked or the wage disparity. Both those are social contructs that would effect a mtf just as it does a cis woman. I might be the odd one but truly as a mtf I will never ever be a cis woman I get that but then again the sum of the parts I sure might be a woman. In a sense the article was saying that what makes a woman is her experience and that a trans mtf could not experience the same thing yet in actuality they sure do but with the experience of a man in the past. The problem is the current state of society we as mtf for the most part try to fit in as woman since we are mostly that however in essence I get it we will also have the experiences of being a man so in a sense the best description for us is transwomen. The bugger is society in general doesn't accept transgender so the problem is if and big if we had acceptance for us then the threat to the idea that we are threating the cis population man/womanhood would be muted. I agree there are some in the trans community that are in a way taking it too far for the sake of getting rights and yet there are some that well basically lets live together in peace.

Just opinion and do realize its touchy in that what we are trying to do is fight for what we believe in but do we have to step on other parties to do so I wish it wasn't so.

My apologies if this seems offensive not my intent in a sense transgender have their own identity just as much as cis and deserve no more or less justification.

Quote from: Jen72 on June 09, 2015, 12:44:02 PM
-------- Trigger warning ------

I admit there is some valid points and some not so valid points. Ok don't demonize me but as a mtf I will never experience a period which is a womens right of passage. But there was some comments made in that article that were contradictory too such as I am a woman because fear of being attacked or the wage disparity. Both those are social contructs that would effect a mtf just as it does a cis woman. I might be the odd one but truly as a mtf I will never ever be a cis woman I get that but then again the sum of the parts I sure might be a woman. In a sense the article was saying that what makes a woman is her experience and that a trans mtf could not experience the same thing yet in actuality they sure do but with the experience of a man in the past. The problem is the current state of society we as mtf for the most part try to fit in as woman since we are mostly that however in essence I get it we will also have the experiences of being a man so in a sense the best description for us is transwomen. The bugger is society in general doesn't accept transgender so the problem is if and big if we had acceptance for us then the threat to the idea that we are threating the cis population man/womanhood would be muted. I agree there are some in the trans community that are in a way taking it too far for the sake of getting rights and yet there are some that well basically lets live together in peace.

Just opinion and do realize its touchy in that what we are trying to do is fight for what we believe in but do we have to step on other parties to do so I wish it wasn't so.

My apologies if this seems offensive not my intent in a sense transgender have their own identity just as much as cis and deserver no more or less justification.

Not all women are able to menstruate; the article itself cautions against reducing women to their bodies. Menstruation, as a bodily function, is therefore an illogical defining attribute of womanhood according to Birkett's logic. Many ciswomen do, obviously, but it is not something that defines ciswomanhood universally.

Nor does 'experience' of socialisation. There is no universal experience of womanhood growing up. This is essentialism and romanticism. A ciswoman who was raised to be a 'boy' by her parents, who had wanted a male child, would not be classified as a 'male' by Burkett, I don't think. Therefore, she is being reduced to her body again, yet--see above. The reasoning in the article is entirely circular and illogical from a philosophical point of view, and it is non-empathetic from a broader human point of view.

And the article is about womanhood broadly; I think many of us, myself included, would say we are women, and I also say I am a 'transwoman' when talking about my identity from a specific sociocultural lens and wish to emphasise my trans-ness. Otherwise, I am simply a woman. And Jenner is simply called a 'woman' by the articles fighting back against Burkett's reactionary claims.

To be clear, none of this is meant to start a triggering discussion; I posted this article simply because it was a highly visible manifestation of one result of the Jenner media narrative, and I am glad that many others have posted news pieces taking apart the article's faulty logic. Do not be sucked in by the logical falsehoods in it. These backlashes are to be expected--but look at the positive, that others are defending Jenner and inclusive feminism and inclusive womanhood. This is a good thing.

Your right it is full of holes and I happen to come back thinking that what I was trying to say really is that transwomen are no less a woman then a cis but with different experience history so a bit different. Not triggered by it myself other then to make me think which is good thing. I am sure as things progress the mudslinging will ensue its part of war well this kind of war anyway. Untill the dust settles and reason finally wins.

Quote from: Gabrielle_22 on June 09, 2015, 12:05:44 PM
I initially said the revelation would be positive by and large, but then I read Elinor Burkett's highly visible transphobic piece in the New York Times, which is reactionary TERF rhetoric that many commenters viewed as 'refreshing' and 'clarifying.' Fortunately, there has been a backlash against Burkett, but what is dangerous to me is the fact that the illogical, circular, essentialist, TERF reasoning of this article was so widely embraced by readers of the NYT, a paper that is not exactly FOX News. I have linked the piece here if you want to check it out. I still think the Jenner narrative is positive for us in the big picture, but the backlash is certainly with us on both the left and the right, as these conservative transphobic ideas are being embraced by 'liberals.'

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,190169.0.html

EDIT: Replace external link with link to news thread

Burkett's piece and the reaction to it scares me.

In my opinion it is HATE.

She is denying that we are internally wired to be our identified gender. Spreading lies about a group of people meets the definition of hate. I hope our community vigorously points out the false points.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 09, 2015, 01:29:38 PM
Burkett's piece and the reaction to it scares me.

In my opinion it is HATE.

She is denying that we are internally wired to be our identified gender. Spreading lies about a group of people meets the definition of hate. I hope our community vigorously points out the false points.

The link seems to be wrong--it brought me to a story about a trans athlete in a cross-country race.

I agree that it is hate. Burkett is from the old school of exclusionary feminism--which is no feminism worthy of the name, to me. There have been some responses from transwomen. I wrote a response to it, as well, but do not know if it will be picked up. I just wanted our voices to be heard and her falsehoods exposed because, honestly, it's not even solely a question of her politics; even just from a purely logical perspective, her article makes no sense. It's like someone saying they support regulation in one sentence and don't want regulation in the next and then saying that is her argument because of regulation. Quite impoverished, really, but ignorance about trans* issues is so high that people are willing to buy incoherent nonsense if it's housed in seemingly 'smart' language on a seemingly legit forum, the NYT. Oh, well. This, too, shall pass.

Quote from: Gabrielle_22 on June 09, 2015, 01:40:07 PM
The link seems to be wrong--it brought me to a story about a trans athlete in a cross-country race.

Sorry. I hope it's fixed now. I modified it because we normally don't allow links to external articles except in the news area, and there only according to the posted format.