Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've been thinking about FFS, but I'm not sure if I need it or not. I know of a couple of friends that would greatly benefit from FFS, and I have no doubt that there life would greatly improve from it; however, I'm not sure if the cost, pain, and time is worth it for me or not -- or perhaps it is all just in my head. It's confusing.

I'm not sure how much FFS will benefit me or if there will be a remarkable difference that would be worth it or not. And also, I wonder what's going to happen years from now after the FFS -- will I need touch ups? Would I end up looking like Micheal Jackson? Or will things be fine?

To be honest, I'm not sure what to get if I did. I don't think I need my adams apple done, since I don't have a visible one. I keep having people get jealous over my nose (even my gg gf does). Maybe my brow? It doesn't stick out much, although. This is confusing, there's no one thing that completely stands out; many of my trans friends, however, have one or two things that stand out and I totally agree that fixing it would help a lot.

And I don't know why I keep thinking of FFS. I seem to be in this strange mood recently where my gender dysphoria is going nuts. I've been living full time for a year and everything seems to be going great. Getting sir'd is something that hasn't happened in months and months... I can't even remember how long it has been. So, I don't know what the problem is... it's not the external world, but something internal.

I should be getting my GRS (SRS) soon... as soon as six months, maybe. I think it would be a good thing. I don't know if it would help. Maybe, in a weird way, because that thingy down there is still there I still feel "male-ish" -- even though no one can see it, I can. Am I extending my incomplete feeling through the rest of me, seeing what others do not. Or are people "just being nice" and telling me that I look good when I don't to spare my feelings.

I think the combo of being full-time for over a year and living in the world as the woman I am, but feeling like I'm hiding something (ie, the thingy down there and my past), combined with the fact that surgery is less than a year away... Is it playing with my head?

I don't know. And I'm not against FFS -- but I'm confused if it would actually help me and if I need it, or if I'm just seeing things that aren't there. Sorta like the anorexic who claims she's fat when she's obviously skin and bone.

Are these feelings normal?




Posted on: September 05, 2007, 08:59:12 PM

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hum, maybe my chin. Is it too long? **trying to to obsess but can't help it now**

If you are passing just fine, then there's probably no need to get FFS.  Although I have a few features I'm not particularly happy about on my face, I seem to effortlessly pass and that's my main justification for opting to go without FFS.  Even in my musical, my costume requires completely hiding my hair, so I am passing on just my face alone, which was scary at first (especially considering I was wearing almost no makeup during the first dress rehearsals), but it also has given me some confidence that I needed.  So, my opinion of FFS is it will only benefit you if you are not passing perfectly.

Well, I guess I pass alright, like I haven't been sir'd either in person or no the phone in a very long time, at least over six months. I've gone out with make up and my hair tied back and stuff lots. So, I don't know if I "need" it. I don't know. I'm being weird again and beating myself up and I don't know why. I'm usually a very confident girl.

Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 01:35:58 PM
Well, I guess I pass alright, like I haven't been sir'd either in person or no the phone in a very long time, at least over six months. I've gone out with make up and my hair tied back and stuff lots. So, I don't know if I "need" it. I don't know. I'm being weird again and beating myself up and I don't know why. I'm usually a very confident girl.

Well, try putting your passability to the test and do something in which you would definitely get feedback from if you don't pass, although you wouldn't be in any real danger (like using the women's locker room at the gym or something).  That can really help to build up your confidence if you still pass.  I know those are the type of things that have built up my own confidence.

Most women who've endured the poison of testosterone need FFS. From what I've seen, it's pretty rare to have gone through a male puberty and not need it. FFS can make the difference between passing and not passing. If a girl passes well before FFS, she will pass flawlessly afterwards.
It's a good investment if being seen as nothing less than a woman matters.

Some women have been blessed by their fairy godmother estrogen, and truly don't need it. But a lot of women believe they don't need it, when they do.
Basing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

And as Gina put it, even the those who don't expressly NEED FFS, could benefit from it.

And not that it means anything, Gothique, but my mother looked over my shoulder at your avatar, and proclaimed 'Girl'. And she's pretty honest. so you may be among those who had a fairy godmother.

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 03:52:25 PMBasing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

If people could care less and leave you alone, then why would that person *require* FFS?

Quote from: Melissa on September 06, 2007, 02:14:45 PM

Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 01:35:58 PM
Well, I guess I pass alright, like I haven't been sir'd either in person or no the phone in a very long time, at least over six months. I've gone out with make up and my hair tied back and stuff lots. So, I don't know if I "need" it. I don't know. I'm being weird again and beating myself up and I don't know why. I'm usually a very confident girl.

Well, try putting your passability to the test and do something in which you would definitely get feedback from if you don't pass, although you wouldn't be in any real danger (like using the women's locker room at the gym or something).  That can really help to build up your confidence if you still pass.  I know those are the type of things that have built up my own confidence.

I've done that. I've tried not to pass, it's pretty much impossible. I think it is more of an internal thing, rather than an external thing that is going on with me.

My GID doctor didn't know I was trans when I first ran into him. I was with a friend who was going to see him and I didn't have my appointment yet. He thought I was my friend's GG girlfriend -- and this is the specialist who sees everyone in Alberta, who has been around for ages. I guess that was good, because he was so impressed that he booked me in 7 months early and expedited my letter for SRS. With other trans people I've also been mistaken for a GG/supporter.

I've been helping my trans friend who'll be coming out full time. A lot of people mistake me for her girlfriend helping her out. I've brought to a wig place where the girl works with lots of transgender people. When my friend was putting stuff on the girl talked to me and told me how much of an expert she was on how to tell if someone is a GG or not, and she kept referencing to my features as examples of "GG female" and my friend as a trans person. That was a very odd and almost uncomfortable situation, and I wasn't sure if I should tell that girl that I was also trans and saw her years go (she didn't remember me).

I think I'm going to wait until SRS before thinking about FFS... I'm thinking that the reason I keep having problems is the thingy down there that keeps reminding me that I'm not whole.

I'm normally very confident and very strong. I'm very active with my social life and I've been in girls washrooms and all that. I've made out with men who didn't know I was trans at all (not recommenced, I was being a silly girl and I could of got myself killed if it was the wrong person).

So, externally I seem to get a lot of validation. I don't know why I'm having trouble believing it. I'll say that I look horrible in pictures, but then most cameras don't take great pictures because of the head-on flash.

But you'd think that I'd some how feel awesome and validated, but I don't. So it has to be something with the internal side and maybe having the wrong part makes me feel wrong and that maybe I some how don't deserve to be seen as a GG. Maybe I feel like I'm some how "tricking" everyone.  Maybe it's a result of living a past life where I was hurt a lot and now that I'm not getting hurt I don't know how to handle it. I never used to be attractive, but now I can't keep people off me. I've never had so many friends before, but now I have so many that I actually have a booked up social calender. I grew up being hit every day being told I don't deserve everything.

And so, maybe, with all that nasty past gone and a new life that's much brighter, I don't know how to handle it. Kind of like someone who was abused by there spouse for years and years, and all of a sudden that stops. You don't know how to live any other way than you did in the abuse, and the effects of the abuse last years after. You can be confident, beautiful, and social, but deep inside the scars still hurt and you feel those old feelings from the hurt... you're stupid, your ugly, you're nothing. And no matter how you fight and how well you look in the world, those scars never go away and the hurt is forever burned into your mind.

And then again, I help and hang out with a lot of trans people who have a lot of passiblity issues. I see how much pain they go through not passing, and I've been the shoulder to cry on and the strength they needed. Maybe, that is what is bringing this up... I don't have those problems (and I wouldn't want them), but maybe in a way I don't understand why I'm so "lucky" and they are not. I some how don't feel that I don't deserve this luck more than someone else. What did I do?

--natalie

Quote from: Melissa on September 06, 2007, 04:27:00 PM

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 03:52:25 PMBasing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

If people could care less and leave you alone, then why would that person *require* FFS?

I guess if they want to look like a woman? I see a lot of women in my town who don't pass, but are treated as women because they are obviously presenting as women. I just see a difference between that and passing. I mean these women are for the most part afforded the same courtsey as natal women. I guess the point is - does a TS care about actually being seen as a GG, or is getting ma'amed by people who know she is TS enough?

PS I'm sorry for the rant. I probably sound pretty messed up and I realize that these issues aren't very common with trans people -- you pass and the world is your oyster. I just don't know why I feel like this. It's not that I doubt I'm a woman, or that I'm going the right direction. I just don't know why I feel like this and very few people can relate, if anyone at all. Well, I've ran into a few GGs who I talked to and they related with there own body images stuff, even really confident and successful women that few knew they had issues. So many trans people think I'm completely nuts when I speak, because they see me passing and wonder what is my issue. They aspire to "pass," to go around like a GG and never be questioned. But, maybe, once the worlds stops questioning you and who you are, the only one left to question you is yourself. And yourself is a much harsher inquisitor than the world.

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 05:14:15 PM

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Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 05:12:23 PM

Quote from: Melissa on September 06, 2007, 04:27:00 PM

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 03:52:25 PMBasing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

If people could care less and leave you alone, then why would that person *require* FFS?

I guess if they want to look like a woman? I see a lot of women in my town who don't pass, but are treated as women because they are obviously presenting as women. I just see a difference between that and passing. I mean these women are for the most part afforded the same courtsey as natal women. I guess the point is - does a TS care about actually being seen as a GG, or is getting ma'amed by people who know she is TS enough?

I would have to agree with Nero -- presenting as a woman has a lot more weight than looks. For me it's natural, but also presenting as a woman is much harder than looking like a woman. When you present as a woman, you're expected to act, know, and behave like a woman in your age range. I've been doing this for a year, and I'm expected to be like I was doing this my entire life. If all one had to do was worry about "looking" like a woman, being a GG would be easy and superficial. But it's not. A woman is much, much more than looks.



Posted on: September 06, 2007, 05:18:37 PM

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Also Regina, I agree with what you said about that it's not all about passing. And Nero's comments, too. I think that FFS might not be just about passing, but about feeling better about yourself.

I see this because, honestly, when I get my SRS I'm not going around showing off my neo-vagina to everyone down the street to validate myself as a woman. If someone see me now, they aren't going to see a difference with my vaginal installation.

My SRS is about me feeling more comfortable with myself, not about validating myself to the world. I have no doubt I'm a woman, albeit some self-body-image issues that have started to come up recently and I don't know how to handle it (I'm considering joining a GG group that deals with it). But, yeah, the SRS is about how I feel towards myself. So, I can see how FFS can be about how you feel rather than passing (although it can be good for passing in terms of looks, too).

I am faced (hehe) with the same dilemma.  I am told my face is perfectly fine, but it doesn't seem like it to me.  I think it is partially just my association of my facial features with my old life, and it bothers me all of the time. 

If I could get FFS, I don't even know what I would have done to be honest.  And financially, I am not sure if I could afford FFS around the same time as SRS (I want to have SRS done ASAP).  I think it would also be kind of odd to show up at school after a summer with a kind of new face.

Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 05:44:51 PMPS I'm sorry for the rant. I probably sound pretty messed up and I realize that these issues aren't very common with trans people -- you pass and the world is your oyster. I just don't know why I feel like this. It's not that I doubt I'm a woman, or that I'm going the right direction. I just don't know why I feel like this and very few people can relate, if anyone at all. Well, I've ran into a few GGs who I talked to and they related with there own body images stuff, even really confident and successful women that few knew they had issues. So many trans people think I'm completely nuts when I speak, because they see me passing and wonder what is my issue. They aspire to "pass," to go around like a GG and never be questioned. But, maybe, once the worlds stops questioning you and who you are, the only one left to question you is yourself. And yourself is a much harsher inquisitor than the world.

Oh trust me, I can VERY MUCH relate.  In fact, I have that feeling that few can relate to me as well.  From what you listed, it sounds like you've done a lot of the same things as I have (i.e. Kissing guys in stealth, passing as a GG amongst other TS, etc).  I kept on pushing the envelope and my latest expedition was auditioning for and being in a musical as a female (which included LOTS of singing and passing being nearly naked in the dressing room), which to this point, I've pulled off successfully.  I even was able to make gender related jokes with friends and have them not think about my gender.  Prior to that was wearing a bikini in public.  In fact, there appears to be no limit as to how far I can go.  Since I found that I love acting so much, I'm going to keep doing that for now. :)

I think you just need some time and perhaps to start trying to live parts of your life in stealth where people only know you as a GG.  I bet that would help.

I think this is a great discussion that you have brought up gothique11, and I can understand your dilemma, especially concerning your past that has affected your outlook on life. 

You really do look 100% like a young woman, so my feeling then is having any FFS would be to alter the way you look(not just about feminization), as in any GG getting cosmetic surgery does, for example Michelle Pfieffer, beautiful woman but changed her nose shape a couple of times to have it the way she wants it.  The list goes on and on, especially in Hollywood, and many looked perfectly fine to me before they got stuff done!  It's not just about trying to look younger, they want to alter the look of their face.  So if that's what you want to achieve, then go for it!

buttercup  :)

Everything's subjective.  I would (and did) get GRS before FFS.  The chief thing FFS (w/ Osterhaut) gave me was a smaller chin and a small curvy nose.  I look at some of my old photos now and see that I had a larger chin.  And yet, I seemed to pass perfectly fine.  So, it's all in my mind, up to me.

One side-effect of FFS chin reduction is that there's extra skin now on your face.  You're supposed to go back, after about a year, and have the skin taken up.  I haven't yet and my operation was in 2002.

I'm retired and see plenty of things I want to spend money on other than my body.  My ex rightly points out that all operations have serious risks.  A GG friend of mine recently had breast "reduction" that went bad -- The tissue under the breast died and she had to have everything removed in subsequent operations.  She's probably going to have reconstruction surgery (breast augmentation).  I tell her that she looks fine but, of course, GG's too have their own set of angsts.

My ex wanted, as a teenage girl, to have a "nose job."  The doc looked at her nose and, amazing for someone who makes money altering people, pronounced that she was perfect.  Today, my ex is very happy that she didn't alter her nose.  My only points with this is are (1) GG's, too, worry about appearance (and we're buying into that) and (2) time can change your perception.

I still get a sharp pain now and then -- the exact place the anaesthesia was placed for my FFS.  It's rare enough to not be a bother.  But it happens.

I look at the money I've spent transitioning and am jealous that GG's have been able to keep more of their savings.  So, there's the economic part.  It's your choice if certain moneys are expendable and necessary.  If I had to choose going into debt with it, I probably wouldn't have.  Avoiding debt is strangely even more important to me than feeling "normal."

Weird, I know.

Teri Anne

Quote from: regina on September 06, 2007, 06:20:57 PM

I think presenting as a woman has been easy for me. Really, a piece of cake compared to everything else (although I've put a LOT of work on my voice).  But looking like a woman is much harder. And there's no question that looking like a woman... not sort of, but really looking like a woman has a powerful affect when you see yourself in a storewindow or in a mirror or photos. It's a confirmation that makes you feel even more grounded in yourself. It connects the inside and outside and just reminds me how right it was to go on this often painful journey. Contrary to what I've heard people say, I don't think FFS is about looking pretty or even not liking your features the way some women don't. It's about removing an entire layer of pre-transition history.

ciao,
Gina M.

I agree with you Gina, it is about removing pre-transition history.  But probably in doing so, especially ones who passed extremely well before, it would beautify them, don't you think?  Having permanent cheek implants, jaw refined etc. would have that effect.  Again with Hollywood(sorry only references I can use), there are some actresses that have masculine features, for eg: heavy brows, large chin or jaw, and they are GG women(well I think so), but if you go on sites like imdb, quite a few people question these actresses gender.  So it seems like everybody needs a little help from the surgeon.   :)    :)

BTW you look very feminine Gina.  Are you of Italian descent?  I am half-Italian so just thought I'd ask as you sign off with ciao. :)

buttercup  :)

QuoteContrary to what I've heard people say, I don't think FFS is about looking pretty or even not liking your features the way some women don't. It's about removing an entire layer of pre-transition history.

ciao,
Gina M.

That's interesting. Like chipping away at the ravages of testosterone to reveal your real face as it should've been underneath.

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 07:00:22 PM

That's interesting. Like chipping away at the ravages of testosterone to reveal your real face as it should've been underneath.

That's a really good way of putting it Nero.  :)  Do you think I should wear a T-shirt with 'under construction' on it? :D


buttercup :)

Quote from: Teri Anne on September 06, 2007, 06:48:49 PM
One side-effect of FFS chin reduction is that there's extra skin now on your face.  You're supposed to go back, after about a year, and have the skin taken up.  I haven't yet and my operation was in 2002.

Not necessarily true, I think it depends on your age and the elasticity of your skin.  At least that's what I was told from the horse's mouth.  The younger you are, the less chance of there being jowls after the surgery.  For someone in their 20s-30s, I think it would be less of a concern.  For someone older, coincidentally the ones that can afford FFS to begin with, you might be looking at a possible face lift later on.

Your chin looks nice btw, Teri Anne, I don't notice the excess skin.  They did a good job.

Thanks for the info. I'm not so much on a "fat day" as I was previously.

I think I'm going to wait until after my GRS to decide if I want FFS or not. Like I said, it's not so much about passing or an external validation, just my own internal thing. GRS might help with things over all, as well has being on HRT longer.

I've been talking to a few natal women over this subject who perfectly understand, they look very attractive but find something about there body that they feel uncomfortable with and would like to change. I've met women who've had nose jobs and have felt better because of it. I don't know if FFS is for me quite yet, but it's an option that I can always consider.

One thing I think I realized is that it's pretty normal to have times when you feel a bit body conscious. Every woman I've talked to has had times when they didn't feel that great, even though they were very confident, attractive and successful women. They understand that it's not always an external thing, but a self-internal thing.

It's like when I went to my voice therapy assessment. They just assessed where I am now, and said that my voice is good and "passable." I told them that voice therapy wasn't about passing for me but me improving myself and feeling more confident with my voice. My voice is the same as it was when I was male, so of course I'm going to still associate the sound of it with my male voice. So, if I can change it up a bit, why not?

Same with my facial features, I still have similar features now that I had as a male, so of course I'm still going to have some association with my old self there. Others would not see it, unless they've known my old self for a long time. So, it's not so much of an external thing with me, but more of an internal associating thing.

It's actually a pretty normal thing from what I'm understanding GGs go through. It's not necessarily about not being confident enough or having a bad self-esteem -- you can be very confident with a great self-esteem and still feel not-so-in-sync sometimes... a "fat day" in other words.


--natalie

Quote from: gothique11 on September 08, 2007, 07:19:00 PM
Thanks for the info. I'm not so much on a "fat day" as I was previously.

I think I'm going to wait until after my GRS to decide if I want FFS or not. Like I said, it's not so much about passing or an external validation, just my own internal thing. GRS might help with things over all, as well has being on HRT longer.

I've been talking to a few natal women over this subject who perfectly understand, they look very attractive but find something about there body that they feel uncomfortable with and would like to change. I've met women who've had nose jobs and have felt better because of it. I don't know if FFS is for me quite yet, but it's an option that I can always consider.

One thing I think I realized is that it's pretty normal to have times when you feel a bit body conscious. Every woman I've talked to has had times when they didn't feel that great, even though they were very confident, attractive and successful women. They understand that it's not always an external thing, but a self-internal thing.

It's like when I went to my voice therapy assessment. They just assessed where I am now, and said that my voice is good and "passable." I told them that voice therapy wasn't about passing for me but me improving myself and feeling more confident with my voice. My voice is the same as it was when I was male, so of course I'm going to still associate the sound of it with my male voice. So, if I can change it up a bit, why not?

Same with my facial features, I still have similar features now that I had as a male, so of course I'm still going to have some association with my old self there. Others would not see it, unless they've known my old self for a long time. So, it's not so much of an external thing with me, but more of an internal associating thing.

It's actually a pretty normal thing from what I'm understanding GGs go through. It's not necessarily about not being confident enough or having a bad self-esteem -- you can be very confident with a great self-esteem and still feel not-so-in-sync sometimes... a "fat day" in other words.


--natalie

True. You know it could be that you guys are never satisfied with your appearance because you're women! LOL
Women are never satisfied. If they look great, they think they could use bigger tits or a smaller nose.
I'll admit that when I was in denial, I was jealous of the dainty, delicate framed girls the guys always wanted. Also of the girls who could fill out their jeans with full, rounded hips. I thought there was nothing more beautiful or feminine than wide, rounded hips encased in tight jeans. It was the normal mixture of envy and lust, LOL.

Quote from: regina on September 08, 2007, 10:30:47 PM

Quote from: Nero on September 08, 2007, 07:45:44 PM

True. You know it could be that you guys are never satisfied with your appearance because you're women! LOL
Women are never satisfied. If they look great, they think they could use bigger tits or a smaller nose.
I'll admit that when I was in denial, I was jealous of the dainty, delicate framed girls the guys always wanted. Also of the girls who could fill out their jeans with full, rounded hips. I thought there was nothing more beautiful or feminine than wide, rounded hips encased in tight jeans. It was the normal mixture of envy and lust, LOL.

Personally, I believe there's a lot more to FFS than that. Nor do I for a second believe it's the same as natal women wanting to look prettier. I think it's a very different need and a very different urge even if it seems as if there's overlap. Look, it's not as if anyone HAS to do it. But I don't appreciate it when people say it's done for vanity. I've never known someone who did FFS for that reason. Ever.

Gina M.

Oh I was just commenting on Gothique's statements about natal women. I know that FFS isn't about vanity, or wanting to be a knockout.
I know that's it's to remove the damage of testosterone poisoning. It's about chipping away at the ravages of testosterone to reveal the face the woman should've and would've had. I understand that. Puberty messed with my body too, causing me to need surgery.
It's not about looks or vanity, it's something a non-trans person will never comprehend.

I was just responding to the comments about the vanity of natal women. I apologize that it came off as my dismissing FFS. I know the pain, horror, and degradation of needing surgery because the wrong puberty defiled your body.

in order  to give an opinion,  clinical photos are  required, hair pulled back, full face, f 45 degree, and profile, left and right...

...based on the avatar, it looks like you could benefit from forehead work, scalp reduction,  brow lift...

..."passsing" is highly subjective especially when self  evaluated, it seems that those who beat  themselves up actually 'pass" better  than those who think  they pass  flawlessly.  And locale matters. Frisco is brutal. It seems everyopne scrutinizes TS s  here with a microscope and they know what  to look for!

Posted on: September 14, 2007, 12:18:57 PM

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....oh and even most GGs could benefit from a lip lift...

I think FFS is very important in the transitional process probably of the the most important, unless you are really lucky with your facial physical structure....

The face is the first thing people see and is a gender indicator. Men do have a different facial and skull shape, sometimes through the infusion of testoterone which in many cases needs eradicating. Nero, it's not a vain thing, it's more to do with exceptance and intergration for many transsexuals.

I am hopefully seeing a FFS surgeon soon and I hope to discuss the male bits about my face. For some weird reason I do pass and I'm surprised by it...... but my voice is really good and I think it does a lot of the work. I worry my brow looks wrong, too much like I'm frowning (see pic). Females are more wide eyed and their eye sockets are different...

On the whole I think I've been a bit lucky and avoided too much male facial development despite starting on hormones in my late 30's..

It's really up to the person. One should get FFS because they want it for themselves. If it makes you feel better, then do it. If you have questions then you have to examine your questions.

I have seen some very nice FFS and I have seen some not so nice FFS. And I've seen some FFS that I didn't even notice any difference.

And as for the "passing" thing - the most important things are self acceptance and "passing" not as a female but as a human being who functions well in society.

No, I don't think you need FFS but it is up to you.

Quote from: Nero on September 08, 2007, 11:23:26 PM
Personally, I believe there's a lot more to FFS than that. Nor do I for a second believe it's the same as natal women wanting to look prettier.

I gotta admit, the idea of being cute and pretty... is *extremely* appealing to me. Not "sexy," not some silly male fantasy of what a girl should look like, but just a girl-next-door kinda thing.

We talked before about how I feel more trans-personed than trans-sexual, in that I've always been haunted by this very specific image of who I am, who I think I WOULD and should have been. Hence my avatar over there. The person I need to be *happens to be* female, but being female isn't quite the point. Being HER, being "me" is.

So even if HRT alone makes me reasonably passable (though ugly because of the residual masculinity), I'd still be tempted to use FFS to be pretty, to be closer to that self-image of mine.

~Kate~

At least your honest about it Kate,

many do FFS on the guise of passability

when its obvious that beauty was even more important,
but admit this would somehow discredit their need for surgery.

Poeple go way beyond removing the effect of T on their squeleton (which the level I of FFS I did) and go to some other
point when they are unrecognizable by anyone from what
they looked before.

Considering that body dysphoria is part of gender dysphoria,
I'm not surprised at all that TS are proponents of
surgery.

I had 10K of surgery although I was quite passable before;
it just didn't correspond to the image I had in my head of
myself (as you say), which made me feel ugly (as gothike said).

If you want to do FFS for this reason I don't see why not (and I did so, so I've got no leg to stand on to object in any way).

Quote from: Deja on September 16, 2007, 10:34:16 AM
And as for the "passing" thing - the most important things are self acceptance and "passing" not as a female but as a human being who functions well in society.

No, I don't think you need FFS but it is up to you.

I definitely need it and I can admit it..
passing as a female is for me the main objective of a 'male to female' transition.........otherwise it's not a 'male to female' transition. self ecceptance is illrelevent if your not excepted in the outside world as a female...

I am taken as female about 80% of the time but I'd like to get to at least 95%...

Quote from: Keira on September 17, 2007, 02:25:37 AM

At least your honest about it Kate,

many do FFS on the guise of passability

when its obvious that beauty was even more important,
but admit this would somehow discredit their need for surgery.

Poeple go way beyond removing the effect of T on their squeleton (which the level I of FFS I did) and go to some other
point when they are unrecognizable by anyone from what
they looked before.

Considering that body dysphoria is part of gender dysphoria,
I'm not surprised at all that TS are proponents of
surgery.

I had 10K of surgery although I was quite passable before;
it just didn't correspond to the image I had in my head of
myself (as you say), which made me feel ugly (as gothike said).

If you want to do FFS for this reason I don't see why not (and I did so, so I've got no leg to stand on to object in any way).

I'm with this end, but I also see where people want FFS in order to pass. But, that's not an issue with every TS person, and sometimes it's about looking and feeling better (hey, gg's do it all the time!)

It's sort of like SRS -- you don't need SRS to pass as a woman, but a lot of TS get SRS to make their bodies more congruent with who they are. It's not like you walk around naked all the time to prove you have the parts in order to get validation, so who's going to know it's there other than you? So TS people do not go through SRS because they don't feel it is necessary for them (and there is nothing wrong with that).

Do I "need" FFS... I seem to get by fine without it. It's an option I consider and keep open as a possibility because it could help me a lot when it comes to feeling more congruent with who I am. It's probaby not going to happen soon, since SRS is coming first, but it's an option worth keeping open.

i think there are two reasons i wouldn't get FFS -

1, because i don't really have the money
2, because im scared of the operation.

its only that has stopped me so far, and i don't think it will stop me for ever.

of course, there are other considerations, like, what happens if the result is not what you wanted? or, what if it makes you look unnatural, like one of the hollywood
knife-mares?

but you can't live your life in fear of what might happen right??

i can't see anyway round it if, like the vast majority of ts's you look basically, like a man, if you want to look like a woman you need surgery.

The only way you can really feel better about it for me, is by looking at other women, and the imperfections they have and live with. At some point, you have to find a balance between being able to live a life trans or otherwise, and yearning for surgery, that might not correct the things you think it will.

its so important for the ts community to get out of this photo-obsessed, imagery that im sure, all of us at some point have been involved in. We have to look at ourselves and realise that we were born men, and we don't have the luck that natal women have had. Its tough, but at least if we recognise the problem maybe between us all we can find a better way through it?

The only complaints that I ever had about my head were my hairline and my nose. I always hated my nose. This goes back to when I was a teen and people would always make fun of it. Once I started transition, I knew that my body was great (yeesh... I mean 5'8", 125lbs. Amazing how a crap boy body can become a hot girl body), but that I would need to do something about these perceived flaws. I went to see Dr Brassard in August for a consult (I met Keira this summer and was amazed at the wprk that he did on her). He told me that obviously my nose needed work, but that he wouldn't touch the rest of my face. I had a rhinoplasty done less than 2 weeks ago, and so far I'm insanely happy about it. This is probably the greatest accomplishment of my transition thus far.

I'd love to get a picture up here (pre-op of my face), but I'm too stupid to figure out how. Some coaching would b greatly appreciated.

Valerie x

Quote from: fruity on September 18, 2007, 04:30:05 AM
of course, there are other considerations, like, what happens if the result is not what you wanted? or, what if it makes you look unnatural, like one of the hollywood knife-mares?

Unlikely if you stick with the best-known surgeons with great reputations. Possible, yes, but unlikely.

Quotebut you can't live your life in fear of what might happen right??

They are valid fears though. I worry about permanently losing sensation in various parts of my face, especially the scalp. And I don't want anyone messing with my nose plumbing.

Quotei can't see anyway round it if, like the vast majority of ts's you look basically, like a man, if you want to look like a woman you need surgery.

Not necessarily. The thing is, WE tend to keep seeing the male looking back at us - even when others just see a woman. Quite a few people have FFS just to change that self-image.

QuoteThe only way you can really feel better about it for me, is by looking at other women, and the imperfections they have and live with. At some point, you have to find a balance between being able to live a life trans or otherwise, and yearning for surgery, that might not correct the things you think it will.

Nicely said, and I agree. I AM tempted by it, I must admit... but I also have this Little Voice In My Head saying, "don't do it, it's not for you."

On the other hand, I don't have $33,000 lying around, so I need some sort of rationalization to sooth the yearning, lol...

~Kate~

QuoteNot necessarily. The thing is, WE tend to keep seeing the male looking back at us - even when others just see a woman.

kate, i so, so hope your right with this one.

Quote from: fruity on September 18, 2007, 11:01:18 AM

QuoteNot necessarily. The thing is, WE tend to keep seeing the male looking back at us - even when others just see a woman.

kate, i so, so hope your right with this one.

It's been my experience thus far, which is why I'm *constantly* whining about how I'll never pass, I look ugly, blah blah. To me, I just look like a feminine guy with long hair most of the time.

But people tell me to just SHUT UP ALREADY, that I'm literally insane, and to not listen to myself - "listen to normal people," as someone recently told me, lol.

And "normal people" (aka "The Public") either tell me I look great (if they know I'm TS), or just see a woman. I have no idea how, it's like there's some magical charm or Jedi Mind Trick "you don't see a male, you only see a woman..." going on.

But seriously, we're often a bad judge of whether or not we "need" facial surgery to pass.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on September 18, 2007, 11:28:55 AM

Quote from: fruity on September 18, 2007, 11:01:18 AM

QuoteNot necessarily. The thing is, WE tend to keep seeing the male looking back at us - even when others just see a woman.

kate, i so, so hope your right with this one.

It's been my experience thus far, which is why I'm *constantly* whining about how I'll never pass, I look ugly, blah blah. To me, I just look like a feminine guy with long hair most of the time.

But people tell me to just SHUT UP ALREADY, that I'm literally insane, and to not listen to myself - "listen to normal people," as someone recently told me, lol.

And "normal people" (aka "The Public") either tell me I look great (if they know I'm TS), or just see a woman. I have no idea how, it's like there's some magical charm or Jedi Mind Trick "you don't see a male, you only see a woman..." going on.

But seriously, we're often a bad judge of whether or not we "need" facial surgery to pass.

~Kate~

That's so true -- we see our selves differently than the world sees us. We have have a zillion people validate you, but we still look in the mirror from time to time and see our old selves. I don't know if that even completely goes away after FFS.

One thing that I did notice, however, is that I ran into an old picture of myself and I didn't recognize the person at first. I look completely different. But since I'm with myself all the time the changes are slower and I don't know if we notice change as much as others do.

I know you from your videos and think you look great, I think ffs is more an option for you based on physical appearance. Everyone tells me I don't need ffs and I partially agree, however there are some minor changes I want done. I think unless you are having issues passing, ffs is more for your confidence than for being accepted based on looks. If you can afford it and you want it then do it, but going for srs is a good idea first if that is what you value more. And image issues is not just assigned to the transgendered, I don't know a gg out there who has not felt inadequate in some way or another.

I think FFS is more important to those who feel it necessary to have a complete and total break with their past.  Looking in the mirror and not seeing the remnants of the old face is very comforting to some.  And it has little to do with passing.  I know that I seem to pass fairly well, and I've been told I have rather feminine features.  But I am going to have one corrective surgery soon. 

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on September 25, 2007, 10:08:02 PM
I think FFS is more important to those who feel it necessary to have a complete and total break with their past.  Looking in the mirror and not seeing the remnants of the old face is very comforting to some.  And it has little to do with passing.  I know that I seem to pass fairly well, and I've been told I have rather feminine features.  But I am going to have one corrective surgery soon. 

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

There has to be a level of discomfort though to begin with ones face to do the "works" and break with ones past.

I am getting a level off FFS (scalp advance and forehead contour), but I am avoiding "the works".  I have no issue with my jawline, and I have no issue passing (with the face itself).  I don't want FFS because I get harassed enough as it is as a female, and I am not even that attractive.  I would like to avoid the harassment.  I am pretty okay with the way I look, outside of my hair and forehead.  I am even okay with my big nose. HRT did pretty well with the fat tissue, and well the frame of my face is not too bad.  I don't want to be beautiful, just female.  If I get read as a nerdy girl...well all the better, thats who I am.

All that I am going to do is a low level of FFS so I don't have to wear a wig.  My face itself, is well...good enough, and I am not at war with my face. 

I also have no desire to make a total break with my past. 

By the way Kristi you look great. 

Also you don't need to do $30,000+ of FFS to look better.

I saw a ffs surgeon yesterday. He went through the various proceedures he thought I needed. I agreed with the brow and forehead but I didn't agree with him wanting to flattening down my cheekbones which I thought was a good feature.

I'm now worried about it..... 

Personally Goth, I think you are very pretty. FFS would make you a knockout. Me, I'm having FFS done way before SRS. I need to be pretty. I dont want to have anything to do with any masculinity left over when I wake up and look in the mirror. I want a new identity, to become the person I always felt I was inside. FFS not only gets rid of that male character but I feel it will make me look like a regular girl.

The reason I call myself a pickle is because I feel passing from the neck up is way more important than what cannot be seen below. I do care about that but I need to be able to pass first. FFS opens too many doors that would be shut if I had just done SRS and tried to shove documents down ppls throats demanding they look and admit I'm a woman because some document says so. If I don't look like a woman then I seriously cannot sell myself as one with any confidence and most people are shallow and vain and judge people by their looks. Women have their beauty and the more you have, the better life will be. Many TS are different and they don't care what people think and keep their drivers licenses on quick draw to show those that snicker or make comments that they are female because the state says they are. Then again I have been diagnosed body dysmorphia on top of everything else. I truly hate not looking like a female. I want to look like a GG, and a pretty one that. I don't care what it costs.

I don't think the state or any governement is going to back me up on the street so I better LOOK like female and not a transsexual when push comes to shove.

There is a simple rule with FFS Goth. Those that look like men before FFS usually look TS afterwards. Those that look TS before FFS will look like women, and those that look like women...will be pretty women afterwards with good surgeon.

You would be very beautiful. If you still get up and look in the mirror and see your old self, perhaps a change is in order before SRS. Its a personal matter and depends on how you feel about yourself. There are downsides to being beautiful but I'd rather deal with those then the downsides of looking like a feminized ex male.

I challenge everybody here to fine one GG that wouldnt want SOMETHING done to their face. I don't think there is such things as a 100% perfectly satisfied woman lol.

One more thing Goth. I dont know how long you have been on HRT but the muscles change last and your face had I dont know how many muscles so perhaps you should wait if you have not been on it for at least 2 years. But then again, most of FFS deals with the underlying bone structure.




Posted on: October 18, 2007, 08:13:24 AM

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Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 03:52:25 PM
Most women who've endured the poison of testosterone need FFS. From what I've seen, it's pretty rare to have gone through a male puberty and not need it. FFS can make the difference between passing and not passing. If a girl passes well before FFS, she will pass flawlessly afterwards.
It's a good investment if being seen as nothing less than a woman matters.

Some women have been blessed by their fairy godmother estrogen, and truly don't need it. But a lot of women believe they don't need it, when they do.
Basing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

And as Gina put it, even the those who don't expressly NEED FFS, could benefit from it.

I just love you  :icon_hug: I could not have said that any better.

QuotePersonally Goth, I think you are very pretty. FFS would make you a knockout.

Yes, I agree, very cute without FFS but totally awesome with some tweeks.

QuoteThere is a simple rule with FFS Goth. Those that look like men before FFS usually look TS afterwards. Those that look TS before FFS will look like women, and those that look like women...will be pretty women afterwards with good surgeon.

I understand the point you are making but I have seen a lot of Doug Ousterhout's work (I used to live within walking distance of his office) and although he can't make everyone pretty, he does a great job in making almost everyone look feminine.

Then there is Butterfly's surgeon not yet revealed who can apparently make unattractive men beautiful.

Quote from: Berliegh on October 18, 2007, 03:16:31 AM
I saw a ffs surgeon yesterday. He went through the various proceedures he thought I needed. I agreed with the brow and forehead but I didn't agree with him wanting to flattening down my cheekbones which I thought was a good feature.
I'm now worried about it..... 

Oh, Berliegh, I agree with you.  Don't you dare touch those cheek bones.  I'm so jealous of them.  They look very feminine.


I'm excited.  Less than two weeks away from getting my eyes taken care of!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Berliegh on October 18, 2007, 03:16:31 AM
I saw a ffs surgeon yesterday. He went through the various proceedures he thought I needed. I agreed with the brow and forehead but I didn't agree with him wanting to flattening down my cheekbones which I thought was a good feature.

I'm now worried about it..... 

Flattening out cheekbones?  I don't understand, this is widely considered a feminine trait.

What's next, cut off your ears?

Quote from: Suzie on October 18, 2007, 08:43:18 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on October 18, 2007, 03:16:31 AM
I saw a ffs surgeon yesterday. He went through the various proceedures he thought I needed. I agreed with the brow and forehead but I didn't agree with him wanting to flattening down my cheekbones which I thought was a good feature.

I'm now worried about it..... 

Flattening out cheekbones?  I don't understand, this is widely considered a feminine trait.

What's next, cut off your ears?

I thought my cheekbones were my best feature.....so I'm going to look for another FFS surgeon.
It's very hard to find FFS Surgeons in the U.K...

Male cheekbones are usually higher, closer to the eyes with a stronger side components (wrapping around the side of the head) than the average female. In Asians, women and men have those high cheekbones, but even there, the sides are generally more robust.

So, if you want to be an average female, a cheekbone not as close to the eyes, more gracile cheekbone would make it so.

But, in an ironic twist, this "male" trait, is seen as very attractive, and most models have it. That's why many young TS can go into modeling.

I don't agree that high cheek bones are typical male.

I have very high and defined cheek bones and when I sent pictures of myself to a FFS surgeoun the first response was: "You have beautiful cheekbones, high and well defined as it is typical in females."

I still wanted a quote for having them reduced so I persisted and received the following reply: "As for the cheek bones, we don't think they need any correction at all. They are a sign of femininity. Many of our patients pay for achieving the kind of cheekbones you got for free."

I guess I am blessed with beautiful cheek bones :)

AVERAGE (the word average is important her) female cheekbones are more prominent (more forward), but not as close to the eye, that's why the region around the eye is the first to show aging in women because there's little support for the skin underneath and when the skin loses its tone, it just sags in the depression.

But, as I said, high cheekbones is seen as attractive in women (and in men), so its sought for regardless.

Quote from: Keira on October 19, 2007, 08:38:48 AM

Male cheekbones are usually higher, closer to the eyes with a stronger side components (wrapping around the side of the head) than the average female. In Asians, women and men have those high cheekbones, but even there, the sides are generally more robust.

So, if you want to be an average female, a cheekbone not as close to the eyes, more gracile cheekbone would make it so.

But, in an ironic twist, this "male" trait, is seen as very attractive, and most models have it. That's why many young TS can go into modeling.

Good points Keira ...you know your stuff.....and I know what you are talking about. Male eyes sockets are deeper and therefor the cheekbones are more prominant. But I still don't want mine tampered with...