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The GOP was kicked out of the youth and Hollywood demographics. They were kicked out of the minority vote. And with LGBT voters, they might as well be kicked from that too. I cannot accept what is happening. People want to stick to traditional principles instead. I don't freaking care. I want the GOP to be able to win society's hearts and minds again. What is your opinion? They have been kicked out of pretty much everywhere. It's not like the dems have to suffer this hard.

I don't participate in the political process, so I don't take sides. It's set up that you try to make people like you and vote for you. You earn your way in and out of popularity. That's all that's going on in my opinion.

Hugs, Devlyn

Mostly because they are failing to progress with the rest of society. Seems like they just keep pushing themselves further into the dark ages with their way of thinking. A huge mistake as our society is growing and becoming much more diverse.

And "mistake" is the right word. I was never endorsing the GOPs more dark-aged views, I was just wondering if they'll ever progress more with society.

Quote from: redhot1 on June 11, 2015, 08:40:37 PM
And "mistake" is the right word. I was never endorsing the GOPs more dark-aged views, I was just wondering if they'll ever progress more with society.

I don't know. The repubs in the past weren't this bad. I think there is a big push back from many religious groups/people due to the advances in equality where lgbt are concerned and the repubs are just glomming onto that base thinking it will get them somewhere. But its really a shrinking base as more and more people are finding that their own loved ones that happen to be lgbt aren't so bad and so are relaxing their views on it.

And it's frustrating as heck, but the evangelicals just drag the party down. 

I do think part of the problem at the Presidential level at least is the Iowa/New Hampshire springboard to get momentum for about the South Carolina stage of the primaries to vault to "Super Tuesday" prominence.  Every candidate promises to support ethanol and then tries to get the "social conservative" vote by promising to oppose gay rights, abortion, and possibly fire.  Remember, the GOP Presidential candidate pecking order in Iowa is done by the same self-righteous twits who actually celebrated Hurricane Katrina smiting the evil New Orleans...until they realized their corn couldn't ship through the disaster area.  Rotating early primaries so the momentum came from, say, Oregon and Massachusetts might mitigate that.  At the least, it would help kill ethanol which is it's own problem.  Otherwise, I think the party is following a general election model the Democrats have also used of ignoring the middle and really trying to fire up the base. 

Honestly, I don't truly expect them to actually solve their deal-breakers any more than I expect the Democrats to solve their own deal-breakers.  After all, the Democrats are probably about to go into their third consecutive Presidential election with a hopelessly unqualified novelty candidate.  Is that really a viable alternative or just banking on people refusing to vote Republican?  Without a serious challenge to their moral and intellectual shortcomings--which the Democrats can't even pretend to make--there's no incentive for the GOP to even try to grow up.       

The GOP platform of 1956:

1. Provide federal assistance to low-income communities;
2. Protect Social Security;
3. Provide asylum for refugees;
4. Extend minimum wage;
5. Improve unemployment benefit system so it covers more people;
6. Strengthen labor laws so workers can more easily join a union;
7. Assure equal pay for equal work regardless of sex.

I was fine with that and would have happily voted for Eisenhower.

( disclaimer: this is my personal opinion and does not reflect on any one else) because the Republicans are aliens invading the populace for the purpose of creating social instability within the world community , so when the invasion comes the world will embrace the alien rulers for their technology and promise to bring all a better life or as an old Twilight Zone episode broadcast portrayed the aliens as human benefactors whose only purpose was to show how to properly serve humans, unfortunately it turned out to be a cook book.

The short version is that they have a lot of anti science, bigoted loons voting Republican, especially in the primaries. If they could field more socially Neutral/Liberal candidates and git rid of the crazy members of the GOP (somehow), then they would be a lot more competitive.

Even if you exclude the tea party crowd, I can't personally trust them to have the interests of anyone but one percenter's at heart anymore and I don't ever expect to qualify. I used to be good with that, but the one percent seem to have thrown enlightened self interest and anything but mayfly economic planning out the window. Now it seems to be grab everything and don't worry about how it affects your business and the Country down the road. Henry Ford, (expletive deleted) that he was, had one thing right. He payed his workers well enough that they could buy the products they built. Contented workers make you more money in the long run. Now they don't seem to care about that.

Mostly, because they cater to evangelicals.  Ever since they've been doing that, they've been losing popularity.  They sacrificed the appeal to moderates to appeal to religious people.  This hurt them since they already appealed to a lot of Christians, anyway.

Quote from: Dee Marshall on June 12, 2015, 08:13:23 PM
Even if you exclude the tea party crowd, I can't personally trust them to have the interests of anyone but one percenter's at heart anymore and I don't ever expect to qualify. I used to be good with that, but the one percent seem to have thrown enlightened self interest and anything but mayfly economic planning out the window. Now it seems to be grab everything and don't worry about how it affects your business and the Country down the road. Henry Ford, (expletive deleted) that he was, had one thing right. He payed his workers well enough that they could buy the products they built. Contented workers make you more money in the long run. Now they don't seem to care about that.

I do have to point out the the majority of one percenters are from Hollywood. I'm libertarian myself. But I would argue that the GOP focus is more on the 50 percenters. And, well, that's where the businesses that hire people come from. This is a help to the other 50 percent who need jobs.

I disagree with the idea that the GOP was kicked out of those arenas.  It seems to me that they turned away from the minority communities and became downright hostile to LGBT interests.  I don't know if the Dems are doing things right, either, but at least they've been welcoming.

The turnaround in the GOP stemmed from the Moral Majority pushing the GOP further right socially in the late 70s. By the time Reagan won, the Christian Right was firmly cemented.  Add in Reagan's trickle down economic theory and that moved the GOP further right economically.  That's a simplified version, I know, but it explains why they moved so far right. 

Then the Tea Party came, and ooh boy!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Quote from: ChiGirl on June 13, 2015, 10:38:56 AM
I disagree with the idea that the GOP was kicked out of those arenas.  It seems to me that they turned away from the minority communities and became downright hostile to LGBT interests.  I don't know if the Dems are doing things right, either, but at least they've been welcoming.

The turnaround in the GOP stemmed from the Moral Majority pushing the GOP further right socially in the late 70s. By the time Reagan won, the Christian Right was firmly cemented.  Add in Reagan's trickle down economic theory and that moved the GOP further right economically.  That's a simplified version, I know, but it explains why they moved so far right. 

This is kind of the way I see it too ChiGirl.

The GOP is exclusive, not inclusive - if you don't fit into their very narrow ideal demographic you don't get a seat at the table - I'd even say that you are driven away from it.

Unfortunately for the GOP demographics are working against them and they have missed or ignored that change - America's population is rapidly changing as more people immigrate and as young people start voting and reject the GOP's bigotry - thus, fewer and fewer people fit into that narrow ideal demographic. Of the ones that do many of them are older citizens and those are decreasing by natural attrition.

To regain relevance the GOP needs to move away from their radical, exclusionary positions and needs to find some fresh candidates with original ideas about how to solve the very real issues that America faces - high unemployment, homelessness, the solvency of Social Security, the furtiveness of today's government where everything is done in secret - come to my mind. They need to quit focusing on side issues that are irrelevant to people facing real issues, and they need to quit promoting laws that are mean spirited/harmful to minority groups such as the LGBT population.

The GOP will become relevant again only when what they stand for is in alignment with what the population wants.

I think there's a bit of "social engineering" going on.

The way that is done, is "the engineers" (whoever/whatever they are) define the "socially acceptable" limits the public can go, creating the appearance of freedom of choice. Over the course of some years (ten to twentyish) one of the borders is moved in the direction they desire (in the current case, more to the Left), and almost concurrently the other side loses territory associated with that side...after a few years, what was known as "normal and socially acceptable" behavior is now defined as oafish and rude (LGBT rights, as an example).

And after the dust settles on these minor (or sometimes major) movements, the public (most of whom don't actually think, they feel) again is free to choose between the new social limits.

The Republicans haven't figured this out yet, and are trying to hold onto their territory which has already been lost.

The Democrats believe they are oh so wise, when they (like the Republicans, Libertarians, and the Tea Party) are just stooges of the Social Engineers.

imho

If not for social conservatism, the Republican party would probably be much more likable by the public, especially the young public. As social values and cultural norms continue shifting, they hold onto many of the same values they held at least a couple decades ago. Gotta give them credit for sticking to their guns(no pun intended), but they're fighting a losing battle socially and culturally.

Really it seems the entire mainstream political system in the U.S is skewed towards the right. Many mainstream Republicans are decently far right on the political spectrum, while many mainstream Democrats seem to be center-left. The far right seems to be much more represented than the far left in our government. At least, that's how it seems to be me. I could be wrong here, but it's what I've noticed.

That's been so for quite a while, Terra13. Starting after world war II we saw ourselves as the counterbalance to the CCCP, defending freedom and democracy alone. Black and white thinking and the fact that they really were out to get us makes it hard, even today, for many people to take a communist or even a socialist solution seriously.

I decided long ago that any political system will do if the people in charge are honest, intelligent, and have the good of the people at heart. Those kinds of people have been rather rare, traditionally, although it seems to be getting better.

Quote from: Marlee on June 13, 2015, 09:35:47 AM
I'm libertarian myself.

Yay! *one person nervously clapping from the back of the room and then getting embarrassed and looking at his phone*

This is entirely the GOP's fault. Politics is this big game of chess and they've just played it badly. I think it's often individual politicians pandering to one special interest group or another at a point in time when it serves them at the risk of alienating them against a larger populace later. Every politician needs donors for money and foot soldiers. The foot soldiers are the people who are SO EXCITED by that politician that they will bust their asses like walking around to hang door-hangers or cold-calling people to talk about their candidate. To get people excited you have to push some kind of hot-button issues. With the GOP, the easiest target has been evangelicals on issues like abortion and gay marriage. The problem is they shoot themselves in the foot when it comes time to win the general election because those issues alienate them from more and more people as times change.

Their donors and foot soldiers are actually dying off. Social conservatives are rapidly becoming a minority. If you look at young people, they are becoming more socially liberal across the board. Young Republicans are starting to sound a lot more libertarian in their philosophies and aren't buying into the anti-LGBT stuff, just as a for instance. They don't want governments to interfere in people's personal lives.

I feel like for the party to change significantly, some folks will have to step up and replace all those evangelical donors and foot soldiers, but they will have to first demand that the politicians they support drop the social conservative agendas. If the politicians can get both types of foot soldiers, they will, and nothing will change. You also need people who are willing to register Republican and vote in Republican primaries because a lot of the platforms of politicians require them to pander to certain types in order to win their primaries and then try to veer back toward central views in order to win the general election. They're doing this weird dance and it's why the system practically forces all of them to be so... full of... poo.

Quote from: Dee Marshall on June 23, 2015, 09:18:53 AM
That's been so for quite a while, Terra13. Starting after world war II we saw ourselves as the counterbalance to the CCCP, defending freedom and democracy alone. Black and white thinking and the fact that they really were out to get us makes it hard, even today, for many people to take a communist or even a socialist solution seriously.

I decided long ago that any political system will do if the people in charge are honest, intelligent, and have the good of the people at heart. Those kinds of people have been rather rare, traditionally, although it seems to be getting better.

If I'm not mistaken we were also out to get them, weren't we? To me, both sides in the Cold War seem to have been kind of silly.
But I'd agree that that's likely a big part of the reason why American politics are skewed towards the right. The far left was considered enemy #1 for a long time, and that's not something that's easy to quickly reverse.

You're probably right about any political system working if done by good people, too. Unfortunately power attracts those who desire power, and those people don't always value the greater good. It certainly seems to have been gradually getting better,  though, at least in the U.S. But there's still a long way to go.

Quote from: Terra13 on June 23, 2015, 10:21:28 AM
If I'm not mistaken we were also out to get them, weren't we? To me, both sides in the Cold War seem to have been kind of silly.
But I'd agree that that's likely a big part of the reason why American politics are skewed towards the right. The far left was considered enemy #1 for a long time, and that's not something that's easy to quickly reverse.

I agree, but I can only talk about the historical motives of the US and that not as well as I might like.

Quote from: Terra13 on June 23, 2015, 10:21:28 AM
You're probably right about any political system working if done by good people, too. Unfortunately power attracts those who desire power, and those people don't always value the greater good. It certainly seems to have been gradually getting better,  though, at least in the U.S. But there's still a long way to go.

That is entirely the problem. I've searched and searched for a political structure, not a philosophy, that reduces the chance of the wrong people being in charge. I thought for a while that we had it in the US, but the last 40 years have proved me wrong.

  Life long Republican. I too have seen the shift to the absurd in the GOP party politics. A lot of honey trying to hide a bitter dash of hate mongering. It isn't so much as the candidates, it is those backers with the money bags with their own agendas. No good candidate of any party with a simple good platform, could not make it these days without being anal-yzed by reporters or other pundits.

Joelene

I am pleased to see this political discourse has stayed away from personal attacks as passions can be inflamed.  I found the worst flamming surrounded the affordable care act debate here.

That said it is important to recognize the corrosive influence of $$$ and the attendant power that some find so irresistible.  I do want to see the GOP more relevant if only because we are all better off when real choices and debate are part of the process.  A strong multiparty system is desirable as well and we would also benefit from the growth of third parties and candidates able to be a national presence.  The "loyal" opposition is needed or we may as well get out a big rubber stamp.

The parties do make a difference and we can see the impact of appointing Supreme Court Justices with right wing agendas of their own.  Can't wait to read the Scalia/Thomas responses to gay marriage;-)

There is no doubt in my mind that many people have a single powerful issue such as civil rights or gun ownership that will trump all others and foster party loyalty.  This sort of compartmentalized thinking allows the cynical campaigns for "value voters" to gain so much traction.  Most national level candidates have a clear record and being an informed voter is critical.  I will never vote for anyone who would deny us equal rights and opportunities.

Tessa, I'm not fond of single issue voting, either, but when the single issue is whether someone has the right to fire me, refuse to sell to me, or beat me to death simply due to an accident of birth it's hard not to vote that way. Every other issue pales when put up against my right to exist.

It really hurts not to be able to vote my principles. Perhaps the Republican party will split as parties have done from time to time and our options will increase.

Yesterday I was shocked to hear that my 73-year-old father, a lifelong Republican has finally gone indy.  He even admitted that he voted for Obama and will be likely voting for Hillary Clinton.  Seems the GOP has no place whatsoever for atheists, pragmatists and scientists anymore. 

They lost me after GHWB's "Read my lips" bit.

Quote from: Dee Marshall on June 23, 2015, 03:02:16 PM
Tessa, I'm not fond of single issue voting, either, but when the single issue is whether someone has the right to fire me, refuse to sell to me, or beat me to death simply due to an accident of birth it's hard not to vote that way. Every other issue pales when put up against my right to exist.

It really hurts not to be able to vote my principles. Perhaps the Republican party will split as parties have done from time to time and our options will increase.

I completely agree and have been told i threw my vote away by voting for 3rd party candidates who didn't have a chance.  I have also held my nose and voted for the best of two when that is the only option on the ballot.  And yes, everything else does pale compared to our right to exist...on my priority list anyway :D

I don't understand this topic. The House and the Senate majorities were both taken by Republicans just a year ago.

As far as presidential alignments, these things also run in cycles. 60's GOP, 70's Democrats, 80's and 90's Republican and 90's and 00's Democrat. And if we look at the group running for the candidacy now, we see more than half who are not the "old school" GOP (And there is nothing "exclusive" there. One is black, and another is female)

Quote from: Marlee on June 23, 2015, 07:20:14 PM
I don't understand this topic. The House and the Senate majorities were both taken by Republicans just a year ago.

As far as presidential alignments, these things also run in cycles. 60's GOP, 70's Democrats, 80's and 90's Republican and 90's and 00's Democrat. And if we look at the group running for the candidacy now, we see more than half who are not the "old school" GOP (And there is nothing "exclusive" there. One is black, and another is female)

It seems the OP is off line and we can't speak for them but they do lament the GOP being "kicked out" and hoping for a recovery?   That reminds me of those who feel their christian god has been kicked out, their gun rights infringed and their rights to discriminate abridged.  All that in a country where the majority consider themselves christian, we have more guns than people and rights that are the envy of many around the world.

Interesting perceptions about who is the most maligned minority???

I have yet to see a national GOP candidate speak in favor of equal civil rights for LGBTQIA+ people and I am not holding my breath on that one ;D

Quote from: Marlee on June 23, 2015, 07:20:14 PM
I don't understand this topic. The House and the Senate majorities were both taken by Republicans just a year ago.

Yeah, because people hate the Affordable Care Act.  The Republicans won because people hate the Democrats, not because they like Republicans.  I'd be willing to bet that if you look at the stats, most of the Democrats that were voted out probably voted for the Affordable Care Act, and most of the Republicans that were voted in probably made public statements against the act.

The Democrats lost the majority because the Democrats were stupid.  The GOP didn't gain relevance.  People voted Republican because that's the only way to get the Democrats out.  Voting for a third party is practically the same thing as wasting a vote.

Quote from: Marlee on June 23, 2015, 07:20:14 PM
As far as presidential alignments, these things also run in cycles. 60's GOP, 70's Democrats, 80's and 90's Republican and 90's and 00's Democrat.

It's true, and that seems to be to some extent a trend in the House as well. I think many swing voters are almost always dissatisfied with the status quo so they keep giving the other side a chance in hope of change, but both parties ARE the status quo. Follow the money and you will see most major contributors donating to BOTH sides almost the same amount. Both sides have been bought.

A winner-takes-all voting system is by design a two-party system which is incredibly limited in its ability to even remotely represent people.

The two-party system is incredibly limiting, and it seems almost like they let third parties exist just to humor them. They're allowed to exist and sometimes even run for office, maybe even gain small offices, but aren't allowed to win the big elections.
But then again, they'd probably be bought out eventually as well if they ever became major players in government. C'est la vie.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on June 24, 2015, 03:42:37 AM
Yeah, because people hate the Affordable Care Act. 

Well no doubt some people feel that strongly and may explain the dozens of ineffectual GOP attempts to repeal it.  But tell that to the millions of people who are now insured for the first time and the rest of the civilized world that wonders why this so called super power is incapable of caring for all our citizens.  And what is the GOP plan for providing health care for all?  Yes, irrelevance prevails.

Hate explains way too much behavior already.  Let's give it a rest :angel:

Quote from: redhot1 on June 11, 2015, 08:07:38 PM
The GOP was kicked out of the youth and Hollywood demographics. They were kicked out of the minority vote. And with LGBT voters, they might as well be kicked from that too. I cannot accept what is happening. People want to stick to traditional principles instead. I don't freaking care. I want the GOP to be able to win society's hearts and minds again. What is your opinion? They have been kicked out of pretty much everywhere. It's not like the dems have to suffer this hard.

The republican party has merged with evangelical Christians ever since roe v wade. Politicians on both sides use their religious views to get voters, that's why we have never had an open atheists as president (or even run for president). unfortunately for republicans, much more of the voters are Christians or Catholic so there is the need to appease their voting base. It has been this way for a long time and it took a while for the left to exploit the bigotry that is so blatant in traditional white Christians morals ( the morals republicans have to support if they want to get re-elected ever), because they still had and have to progress a lot them self

 A interesting post. Let me throw in my two cents. The politicians you have in the Democratic and Republican parties today are corporatists. They do the corporation's bidding lobbying for the laws that they want passed. You don'g have your Roosevelt Democrats or you Eisenhower conservatives. Back then you had some kind of moral fiber among lawmakers. Now it's everybody for themselves.

If I have the power everyone in the congress and assembly would dismissed. The are an embarassment to the country and to the constituents they allegedly represent. I left the Democratic Party over a decade ago because they don't listen to me. I'm a Independent. I don 't always vote the party line. In the upcoming presidential primary I can say that I would never ever vote for Clinton, Bush, or Donald Trump.

Quote from: Terra13 on June 24, 2015, 06:43:19 AM
The two-party system is incredibly limiting, and it seems almost like they let third parties exist just to humor them.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FO5dH9m7.png&hash=43f0bea46f396a3faa16428ed82d96ba4b00ef86)

Quote from: Jill F on June 23, 2015, 03:39:14 PM
Yesterday I was shocked to hear that my 73-year-old father, a lifelong Republican has finally gone indy.  He even admitted that he voted for Obama and will be likely voting for Hillary Clinton.  Seems the GOP has no place whatsoever for atheists, pragmatists and scientists anymore. 

They lost me after GHWB's "Read my lips" bit.

That is where gop fails, the gov be should be ran by leaders with scientific facts, not beliefs which hurt the majority.  The wars this party has led us into, and the simple fact they deny global warming.  Over in west texas 100 miles away, those idiots were on the news nightly for a decade saying they were in a terrible drought because of homosexuality?  Guess they rather it rain water then men, but to each their own;)

Im atheist myself, but see religion as a good thing for some.  It does make some good people..  but the rest of these Christians use religion to scheme and prey on others (note I said prey as a bad thing!)  THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE GOP WHO THINK ALL LGBT SHOULD BE MURDERED FOR OUR CHOICES!  After that sentence, are you still with them?  Remember this quote,"all women can stop a rape if they want!"  Not exact words, but close.  Im just not up to looking up disgusting quotes and ideals today..  But can anyone prove it was any other group than the grand OLD party!

I spent almost a decade fighting for peoples rights.  For laws like on abortion or even our choice to transition, nobody else should have a say except the owner of the body!  They even chose to take out birth control out of some groups insurance, so they didnt have the freedom to choose.

What about this slave flag thats been flown decades after they lost the war.  I saw nobody but republicans defending this flag for years?  Now after these murders, they are only emoving it in self interest, not that it has hurt the black oppulation for years..  I have unfortunately met racists through the military and other jobs, and not one were democrat!

Gonna quit here, there are too many real events that have happened that the gop denied.  I dont want to ruffle feathers, but I could imagine them denying the holocaust if their greatest financial backer for the gop wasn't jewish.

It is starting to happen with the democratic party too, to buy the candidate.  We need to fix terms in all positions, weed out the old ideas..  we need to pass tough laws on lobbying.  We need to get corporations out of gov. 

We need to get hold each campaign with a dollar value paid by the gov.  If they overspend during their campaign, then maybe they shouldnt be in office? 

Wow, im done, I just realized I need my e shot today;)

Until Citizens United is overturned with a constitutional amendment, both "D"s and "R"s will be beholden to the same corporations.  Elections in this country have basically turned into a choice between drinking bleach or drain cleaner, and water is no longer an option.

If the "R"s want to go back to fiscal responsibility, paying off the debt and staying out of your business while dropping the evangelical front, then I'm all ears. (Get it?)  Until then, I'm mostly voting for people in the party that I find somewhat less odious.  At least they're giving us lip service instead of being up front about denying us rights and pandering to the wrong people.

Quote from: Jill F on June 25, 2015, 01:55:00 PM
Until Citizens United is overturned with a constitutional amendment, both "D"s and "R"s will be beholden to the same corporations.  Elections in this country have basically turned into a choice between drinking bleach or drain cleaner, and water is no longer an option.

If the "R"s want to go back to fiscal responsibility, paying off the debt and staying out of your business while dropping the evangelical front, then I'm all ears. (Get it?)  Until then, I'm mostly voting for people in the party that I find somewhat less odious.  At least they're giving us lip service instead of being up front about denying us rights and pandering to the wrong people.

Jill, they offer water!  Either the type that burns when lit by fracking, or full of mercury from coal.  Republicans dont wanna give up oil and coal for the cock bros (dont know if spelled right, but should be this way).  So many other countries are changing their form of energy, but we just have sooo many excuses why not.  Now we have clean coal and smart gas?  I just think we have weak leaders mostly gop who cant say no to bribe money:(

Quote from: Jill F on June 25, 2015, 01:55:00 PM

If the "R"s want to go back to fiscal responsibility, paying off the debt and staying out of your business while dropping the evangelical front, then I'm all ears. (Get it?)  Until then, I'm mostly voting for people in the party that I find somewhat less odious.  At least they're giving us lip service instead of being up front about denying us rights and pandering to the wrong people.

Well I don't want to let this devolve into a debate. But who is for smaller government,reducing a deficit which has tripled over the last ten years, less spending and states' rights?

Also, bribes were mentioned in another post. But what about brainwashing? A power called environmentalism (a new kind of evangelism) has stepped way up and have influenced the denial of many opportunities that would provide jobs for common people.

Quote from: Marlee on June 25, 2015, 04:55:45 PM
Well I don't want to let this devolve into a debate. But who is for smaller government,reducing a deficit which has tripled over the last ten years, less spending and states' rights?

That is a good question.   Under Rs Reagan and Bush II the deficit grew very quickly.   The Rs are only in favor of reduction of the dept if it comes from reducing the social programs that help the poor and disadvantaged, but are opposed to anyone taking funding from the military and security industries.   I guess that is their definition of smaller government.

Quote from: Marlee on June 25, 2015, 04:55:45 PM
Well I don't want to let this devolve into a debate. But who is for smaller government,reducing a deficit which has tripled over the last ten years, less spending and states' rights?

Also, bribes were mentioned in another post. But what about brainwashing? A power called environmentalism (a new kind of evangelism) has stepped way up and have influenced the denial of many opportunities that would provide jobs for common people.

Environmentalism is as important as civil rights if you ask me. If the planet gets destroyed by global warming ( like 95% of scientist say is gonna happen) then civil rights advocacy wont really mean much.

The gop's denial of global warming is another area that has caused them to stumble. It is also one of the biggest issues I have with the republican party.

Quote from: Marlee on June 25, 2015, 04:55:45 PM


A power called environmentalism (a new kind of evangelism) has stepped way up and have influenced the denial of many opportunities that would provide jobs for common people.

But meaningful jobs?  And jobs at what cost?  The difference between environmentalism and evangelicalism is a little thing called the scientific method.  We can start with a hypothesis and actually test it.    It's funny how often blind faith is required for believers while the path of scientific progress has obvious proofs for climate change and the mass extinction of our planet's species that some cannot yet see.  Must be all the pretty distractions ;D ;D

Quote from: Marlee on June 25, 2015, 04:55:45 PM

Also, bribes were mentioned in another post. But what about brainwashing? A power called environmentalism (a new kind of evangelism) has stepped way up and have influenced the denial of many opportunities that would provide jobs for common people.

Most jobs in the US are being lost due to replacement of people by technology and globalization allowing unskilled jobs to be done in other places.   But it is much easier to blame the loss of jobs on tree-huggers and illegal immigrants that to face reality.  And it also makes it a lot easier to get elected.

for the poor people in Alaska, they are very meaningful jobs. And none of the opponents used any scientific evidence before launching an opposition campaign that killed plans for a mineral mine that would have employed hundreds. The mine, ironically not reported..was to be over 40 miles from the bay which was the major focus of the opposition campaign. The same is going on in the lower 48 with the pipeline debacle. I support alternative energy pursuits. But we can't just "cold turkey" stop using oil.

Quote from: Marlee on June 25, 2015, 04:55:45 PM
Well I don't want to let this devolve into a debate. But who is for smaller government,reducing a deficit which has tripled over the last ten years, less spending and states' rights?

Also, bribes were mentioned in another post. But what about brainwashing? A power called environmentalism (a new kind of evangelism) has stepped way up and have influenced the denial of many opportunities that would provide jobs for common people.

Whats wrong with a big gov?  Big gov didnt waste the money, gop forced us into 2 wars that costed trillions.  I was there!  I love big gov and a big military..  we could afford it before the bush years..  my job was great, times were good, economy great!  Then bush, wirh his 911, that was no reason for war..   I lost friends to the GOPs decision.  I was forced vaccines for an attack that never happened, now ive been bed ridden since 2008, and yet my ~$200k/year is tacked on the va, hence the gov, which now GOP blames obama for the bill now, which I admit I add to yearly.   How does the obama era get blamed for these wars he didnt start..  I blame GOP, but thats just my opinion and BRAINWASHING talking;)  We all have our opinions, we just need to pick out the ones good for the group, not just a few privileged.. 
The GOP was a good thing, many decades ago, but they lost touch and need to fade with dignity before they end up a laughing matter.  I hear circus music everytime I hear someone has jumped onto the GOP ticket.  I figured it out, they dont plan on winning, the GOP is a cash cow.  Take those doners for all they got then retire..  For once, we dont get swindled;)  Maybe then some new blood can come in and we can rename congress to progress!  Thats my 2 cents.  I hate politics, suits are only good to bury people in, I worked for a living with my hands and proud of it!  Wow, my oxy is working :-)

Quote from: Kaydee on June 25, 2015, 07:59:49 PM
Most jobs in the US are being lost due to replacement of people by technology and globalization allowing unskilled jobs to be done in other places.   But it is much easier to blame the loss of jobs on tree-huggers and illegal immigrants that to face reality.  And it also makes it a lot easier to get elected.

You are right, rich people want their money and can get 20 kids in china to produce 2x the output of one worker here.  Sadly it has to be an effort on both sides there.  Democrats want to raise min wage to over 15/hr.  I ran an ewaste recycling company until I found the truth in recycling.  I could barly employ people at min wage, and on camera behind my back they were not worth the insurance I had to pay on them.  People get paid by their skill..  how can we force min wage when so many are out of work?  This is where gov steps in and subsidizes.  Or else people are laid off, gov still paying unemployment, and owner cannot turn a profit?  This model fits alot of cases;(  yea a head of household should not make min wage at 7.50/hr, but his life choices must have sucked.  And who is dumb enought to pay a high school kid $15/hr for the proposed wage?  My retirement plan just crashed putting me into poverty at that rate;(  people dont make higher wages and thats it, there will be a huge inflation and my income will not be enough?  Im off subject to show both sides are not perfect..
And yes the environment is important!  Water the most!  We do need to cut oil and coal cold turkey or for power at least when there are free sources, but hopefully I dont have to explain who is the top 1 percent reason they are still in full effect?  I could see more employees working on alternative energy than employed now on coal and oil gigs, if coal and oil were gone.  But then all that money would go to the masses, and the rich wouldnt have control.  Oil and gas, the 2 perfect products you can see the money flow just one way.  Its like printing money and not backing it.  Eventually with just these two products, a person could literally own everything but a fraction..  they should donate half their profit to pay the damage they cause..    Hopefully someone sees my point here.  Im too tired to finish this.  Its a scarry deal if you understand it and realize its too big to stop them now..   maybe im a nut, I hope so.  I have nothing to gain from it.  I just want my grandkids to live better than me, or you not to go through the experience the GOP did to my health..  I blame them, and I have the right to!  Spend 5 years in bed on chemo and immunosupressants so a group in the GOP can get rich, I bet youd be bitter too.. 

But it brought out my good side too, that I guess was good?  I would have never met this beautiful group;)

I'll just have to add one last point here to think about.
if they cold turkey cut off oil, we'd better hope someone has a quick replacement for silicon, the bags your HRT meds come in, and the plastic syringes many of us use for injections..cuz guess what...they're made from..oil.

ah...and so is the synthetic hair wig I wear :)

Yep, they can make plastics from corn, raw sewage, or co2 out of the air.    Plastics from oil is cheaper.  Not saying we dont need it.  Planes are the real bummer, so it will still be around. 
Ever hear of thermal depolomerization, I did it with my son as a science experiment.  We took grass and put it in a high pressure bottle, added water for oxygen removal, pressurized it to 500psi, and cooked it for 30 min at 500 deg f.  Can you imagine what the outcome was?

Why has this not been researched more and all landfills turn into chemical plants.  They could pay for themselves? 

What about just turning most landfills into incinerator/power plants.  Then recover the basics out of the ash to recycle.  Everything decays back to its basic elements like carbon for burning anyway.  Last time I was at the grandcanyon, they were having a controlled burn, with more always happening.  The stuff is being burned into the atmosphere already?  Why not get power out of it?  These ideas are avail, just kept pushed down.  Please dont bring up a carburetor that gets 100mpg, because physics and common sense says no, but simple ideas like this are viable.  I just found they use the carburetor hoax to squash and good idea..   

Did you see in the news that one of the oil companies just sent a lobbiest to the Vatican to stop his crusade on global warming?  Now you know christian science is the reason real science crawls, but this pope is on the ball:)  Im not a Christian, but I fear for his life if they sent a scumbag to "put him strait".  Oh and did you see all the GOP candidates responses to the popes issues with global warming..  AND YOU SAY YOU CANT BRIBE GOP!  These idiots are in it for the money.    I wish I was a billionaire, I would prove my point by bribing one of them to "eat a bugger" for a million bucks.  You know they would throw their mom out a window for less sadly..  could you imagine turning trash into oil, then no new carbon introduced into the atmosphere:)  But its that cashflow thing again since money flows both ways in this model..  cant have a middleclass to threaten the rich:(
The ideas I mention, they work, just never happen during our time.  We have to teach our children better values so when the GOP and their minions are gone, science and morality can step in..
We will always have our wigs;)  Good point though Marlee!

Quote from: Jill F on June 25, 2015, 01:55:00 PM
Until Citizens United is overturned with a constitutional amendment, both "D"s and "R"s will be beholden to the same corporations.

Exactly.  Now that it has been decided that money is speech, it means that whoever has the most money has the most speech.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on June 29, 2015, 09:54:57 AM
Exactly.  Now that it has been decided that money is speech, it means that whoever has the most money has the most speech.

I have my problems with the effect of Citizens United, but the frank truth is that the decision was right on the law.  The bottom line is that the U.S. Constitution *does* explicitly prohibit limits on what people can say and the reason is not about whether that dress makes your butt look fat.  The "free speech" part of the 1st Amendment is intentionally about political speech and you truly can't stop somebody from spending what he wants in this respect, whether his name is Soros, Koch...or UAW, or Chamber of Commerce, or whatever.  Say what you will about it being written in a country where only propertied males could vote, but they wrote what they wrote and we are left with what they got wrong as surely as what they got right, what they missed as well as what they saw.   

Don't misunderstand me, I'm just saying the decision was clearly constitutional, not that it will make for a better country.  The only solution I see is an Amendment and I'd be in favor of it.  I'd rather limit what politicians can accept than what private citizens can give, but it's a thorny issue that we do need to solve and I'm open to suggestions on a way forward.     

Money may talk, but I have my doubts that it counts as speech. If it does then bribes should be legal.

sorry, the Republicans can buy every media outlet conceivable  and blanket the world with their ideas of a better world and as long as their philosophy of society remained the same , I'd still vote democratic and end up going underground and joining the resistance when they bring in marshal law and reeducation camps, which is the logical conclusion to their philosophy. (Disclaimer: just my opinion and not meant to create  disharmony)

Quote from: stephaniec on June 29, 2015, 05:06:02 PM
sorry, the Republicans can buy every media outlet conceivable  and blanket the world with their ideas of a better world and as long as their philosophy of society remained the same , I'd still vote democratic and end up going underground and joining the resistance when they bring in marshal law and reeducation camps, which is the logical conclusion to their philosophy. (Disclaimer: just my opinion and not meant to create  disharmony)

Do you mean the democrats bringing in martial law?  Dear if you were ever in the military, this would never happen unless there was a reason.  Only ones I can think of is disease and invasion.  To be honest, id choose the military iver police anyday..  as for the republicans, have you seen the stupidity in the republican andidates over the 2 supreme court decisions last week.  Then trump calling immigrants rapists and drug dealers?  Theres going to be a woman in the whitehouse, its going to be pretty good as long as this euro thing with greece and russia get fixed..  republicans want war, they are just as nutty as putan..  we need to stick them all in a room and drop it in the ocean..  then all will be calm in the world;)  more people die daily from cigarettes or drunk driving than isis, so they are just a bunch of brats who want attention..  lets spend the next couple decades on ourselves, the money the bush era dummped into iraq and Afghanistan could have paved every road in this country w new bridges and dams, plus alternative energy all the way..  look at the bush legacy over there, all destroyed, but his republican buddies got rich!  Dont think im brain washed, show me pics and proof im wrong;)   the republican idea is a god of vengeance, I know you believe in god stephanie, but isnt your god of love?  Doesnt sound like you are a republican;)

I know I'm gonna catch a lot of flack for this but oh well. I think they already have gained a lot of relevance. Look at the last election and how many democratic members of congress lost their jobs.

People are waking up and realising that the left WON'T fix this country. I mean look at California....they are broke, the constitution has basically been shredded, this country's flag is treated with less respect than dirt. I mean I can honestly go on all day long. Sadly it isn't just limited to California....Chicago, New York....every state/county that has been loyal to the left of the isle is seriously messed up.

Now let's look at areas that have been loyal to the right. Florida for example is still free, yes truck nuts are illegal but oh well that's a different topic all together. But on top of the less restrictive laws have a financial surplus, Florida got to the point of eliminating the state income tax and survives on a state sales tax.

It's time to put down the liberal kook-aid and stop voting based on lies of increased rights and "fair tax plans" that have done nothing but put us deeper into the red, and start voting for the party that will fix the budget, will cut spending, kick the abusers off government assistance and finally will stop attempting to rape the constitution.

Yall say yall want change but never get it....maybe it's time to change the way yall vote and start voting Republican.

Quote from: kariann330 on July 03, 2015, 11:18:12 PM
I know I'm gonna catch a lot of flack for this but oh well. I think they already have gained a lot of relevance. Look at the last election and how many democratic members of congress lost their jobs.

People are waking up and realising that the left WON'T fix this country. I mean look at California....they are broke, the constitution has basically been shredded, this country's flag is treated with less respect than dirt. I mean I can honestly go on all day long. Sadly it isn't just limited to California....Chicago, New York....every state/county that has been loyal to the left of the isle is seriously messed up.

Now let's look at areas that have been loyal to the right. Florida for example is still free, yes truck nuts are illegal but oh well that's a different topic all together. But on top of the less restrictive laws have a financial surplus, Florida got to the point of eliminating the state income tax and survives on a state sales tax.

It's time to put down the liberal kook-aid and stop voting based on lies of increased rights and "fair tax plans" that have done nothing but put us deeper into the red, and start voting for the party that will fix the budget, will cut spending, kick the abusers off government assistance and finally will stop attempting to rape the constitution.

Yall say yall want change but never get it....maybe it's time to change the way yall vote and start voting Republican.

This is not the tasteless joke thread..  after all the presidential candidates quotes after the victory for us last week, and you would vote for them:(  or are you a trump fan who thinks all Mexicans are rapists, and backed by other republican candidates?  I'd stay away from that clown car..

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Quote from: Cynobyte on July 04, 2015, 03:04:38 AM
This is not the tasteless joke thread..  after all the presidential candidates quotes after the victory for us last week, and you would vote for them:(  or are you a trump fan who thinks all Mexicans are rapists, and backed by other republican candidates?  I'd stay away from that clown car..

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

I'm not joking one bit. What has Ohblamebush done for the country?? NOTHING!! He has DOUBLED the nation's debt, he has ignored our immigration laws on countless occasions, has attempted to impose an AWB that would make the 94 one Look like a joke.....I can't think of one single positive thing he has done.

Rand Paul....fought to have our laws enforced. He fought to end the NSA from spying on American citizens, he has fought for welfare reform that would make it harder to abuse the system. He has fought for gun rights. He has fought for a total overhaul of the budget. His tax plan, completely END the IRS so we can flood the economy with the extra money and let major companies create jobs.

Do I agree with Donald Trump, not fully. Are all immigrants criminals, no...but on the same hand he also had a good point, it's time to start kicking out the immigrants who swim, float, crawl or tunnel into this country and ban them from entering for life because they are a drain on society.

Btw I apologize in advance if that last part came off as racist because it wasn't.

In all honesty I don't care where you or your family are from. If you want to come here permanently take the right steps. Go to the embassy in your country, apply for a visa and also apply for citizenship and come here the right way.

When you factcheck your statements, we can talk.  I feel sorry for you:) but be my guest, id love to see you goto the republican convention and support them.  Me, Ill support and help people with real issues..  Best of luck;)

Quote from: Cynobyte on July 04, 2015, 04:22:53 AM
When you factcheck your statements, we can talk.  I feel sorry for you:) but be my guest, id love to see you goto the republican convention and support them.  Me, Ill support and help people with real issues..  Best of luck;)

Actually I WILL be at the RNC since its only a 45min drive at the most from where I live not counting traffic.

Btw is you want another example....Gov. Strickland D-OH. Drove the state into the red with reckless spending, same as Obama), threw a fit when we got the right to CCW and had a 15 round magazine law thrown out as unconstitutional (same as Obama when gun control got shot down after Sandy Hook), killed job creation in the state, his policies are part of what drove up unemployment in the state....in short he destroyed the state.

John Kasic R...also possible candidate....Has turned our budget around and has given us a surplus. Has strengthened job creation in the state. Has strengthened gun rights in the state, we are now a Will Issue Without CLEO Signature state for NFA weapons. He recently started limiting Common Core in the state, he has strengthened manufacturing and so on and so on.

Face it however you shake a stick at it republicans are better for this country than democrats ever will be.

You are cute;)  Please post a pic of you in a dress next to one of the rnc candidates:-) 

 :police:

If there is any more mud slinging I shall close this thread.

Cindy

Quote from: kariann330 on July 04, 2015, 05:02:35 AM

Face it however you shake a stick at it republicans are better for this country than democrats ever will be.

I've spent quite a while holding my nose and voting Republican because their deal-breakers are less odious than the Democrats' deal-breakers.  I'm not entirely sure that's true anymore. 

The U.S. is currently experiencing what has frequently been labeled "the weakest economic recovery since WW2."  This is the polite way of saying, "the weakest economic recovery since FDR bungled his way through the Great Depression."  The common thread there is the Democratic Party.  Labor force participation is abysmal, and looking at the U-3 and U-6 numbers makes it clear the only reason the reported unemployment rate is going down is due to people giving up even looking for work.  Black unemployment hasn't been this bad since the 1930s, which doesn't help race relations any more than Obama saying stupid stuff like, "The police acted stupidly" or, "If I had a son..."   Democrats love to foist racism off on Republicans, but it was Woodrow Wilson who fell in love with Birth of a Nation in between his party supporting the Confederacy and watching the Republicans do the heavy lifting for the Civil Rights Act.  Obamacare remains a bad hybrid the Democrats went dumpster-diving for and then spent years complaining about how the Republicans(!) don't have any ideas.  As Obama himself said, should we institute a housing mandate to end homelessness?  Putting it charitably, this administration hasn't done much to improve the party's generally poor reputation on foreign policy.  This is a party that openly boasts about wasteful spending--as Tip O'Neill proved.  Gun control is actually a prime example of why the Democrats have no idea what the rule of law means.  The U.S. needed a Constitutional Amendment to ban alcohol--alcohol, for crying out loud--and then a second one to make it legal again.  Even if you accept that gun control would be a positive thing (which is its own discussion), how does a reasonable human being conclude that in a legal environment which requires a Constitutional Amendment to ban alcohol, we don't need a Constitutional Amendment to ban firearms--which are explicitly protected by the U.S. Constitution.  It's a classic example of how--even if you accept the premise that the Democrats are correct on an issue--they don't respect the rule of law.  This total package is a very solid reason to never vote for the Democrat.     

This is not to say that the Republicans are much better.  Their track record on LGBT issues is a complete train wreck I don't need to explain to this forum.  Their history says the only time they think about Austrian economics is when campaigning, and they spend the rest of their time trying to produce pork.  It's possible to talk about secure borders without being a racist, yet somehow they have trouble doing so.  This obsession they have with abortion forty years after the issue is over is just bizarre.  While it's true they haven't produced the corrupt machines like Tammany Hall, they've produced a Randy Cunningham for every Huey Long and some of the most sensational examples of corruption (Teapot Dome, really Grant's entire cabinet) in American history have Republican fingerprints on them.  Personally, I just watched my Republican Congressman bail out my boss after some illegal activities, which was pretty disappointing.  As the Democrat idol Roosevelt has some gaping flaws, it's worth mentioning that the "Party of Lincoln" lionizes a guy who had the army round up the state legislature of Maryland and then spent two years (1863-65) running Indiana as a virtual dictatorship funneling money directly to the governor so the state legislature didn't need to be called into session.  If it's true--and it is--that the Democrats are reduced to running absurdly unqualified novelty candidates, I can't think of a Republican candidate who can open his mouth for more than 15 seconds without disqualifying himself from getting my vote.  As disastrous as Obama's foreign policy is, I can't pretend that Bush's "With us or against us" was worth repeating either.  Say what you want about Democrats wasting money, the last Republican President I'd trust with my wallet was Coolidge, and the last candidate was Goldwater.  While the Democrats keep trying to do the wrong thing the wrong way on gun control, the Republicans try to do the wrong thing the right way with an amendment against gay marriage.  There's an argument that actually makes them more dangerous.  Honestly, if they could tell the difference between politics and religion I'd say about 70% of their deal-breakers would disappear, but I'm not betting on that happening anytime soon.  Add it all up and voting for the Republican is pretty indefensible, too.       

Actual strengths of either party?  Not much.  Even after Clinton signed DOMA, the Democrats win the LGBT question pretty much by default and the Republicans win economic policy and 2nd Amendment pretty much by default.  The Republicans are too involved with the evangelicals to make a serious move on the LGBT issue and the Democrats don't understand that the business of America really is business.  It's a realistic position to say one is important to you and the other benefits society as a whole more, but I can't pretend both parties aren't in the pocket of special interests.  Republican rank-and-file rightly complain openly about the "donor class" buying candidates.  Democrats do seem to have a blind spot that the reason tort reform didn't find its way into the ACA was trial lawyer donations, but watch them go nuclear at the words "Wall Street" if you doubt they understand the problem American politics has with money.

Honestly, it's the ogre's choice (the polite way of saying it's a Hitler-Stalin question) and I understand why people get emotionally involved with defending their choice.  I think we do have to understand neither party really ranks as "good" in the final analysis.  I've about abandoned voting if I lay all my cards on the table.  This is why we get annoyed with one party's failures after a while and bring in the other one until we figure out they're not really any better.  Right now the Republicans have a majority of governors' offices, state legislatures, House, and Senate seats.  That does make them relevant.  They've got a good shot at the White House in 2016, especially given the Democrats refusal to field a legitimate candidate yet again.  They will lose all/most of these things due to their own incompetence and venality, wander the wilderness for a bit while the Democrats demonstrate their own incompetence and venality as they have the last few years, and then come back without having learned a %*$@ thing.  It's the American way.                                     

I think Donald Trump will be greater than Abraham Lincoln

like seriously I have never actually been excited to vote. Neither of the parties are good. I think most of us can agree on that. Unfortunately with how much power huge corporations have and with how much money is needed in order for to run for office, we might not ever have a president that isn't bought by someone who has special interest.

the best candidate I have seen is Bernie Sanders. imo. I actually am excited about him. he is the only legitimate presidential candidate right now, and he is a independent (despite the fact that he is running as democrat). He is the only person that literally gives a ->-bleeped-<- about the middle class and lower class. he is also the only presidential candidate that has stuck with his values since the get go. he is definitely gaining momentum, but still has a long ways to go before he can get ahead of Hillary.

I wouldn't even vote if it is Hilary verse someone. She is a snake. now that feminism and gay rights are important to the left, she suddenly is supportive of both despite the fact that she used to not be. I really don't trust her.

Bernie Sanders is bae.

I like a satire article I saw from the New Yorker that is just going to become more true as Bernie keeps gaining in polls, "Hillary Clinton to adopt all of Bernie Sander's political positions by noon tomorrow."

Quote from: amber roskamp on July 04, 2015, 03:28:59 PMI really don't trust her.

I don't think anyone trusts her.  Pretty much everyone I knows believes that Hillary will say anything to get elected.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 07, 2015, 05:32:50 AM
I don't think anyone trusts her.  Pretty much everyone I knows believes that Hillary will say anything to get elected.

Same here, yet she continues to "fight for women's and LGBT rights" yet takes money from countries for both her private organization and her political campaign from countries that give both groups absolutely no rights......oh and remember it still doesn't matter what was said in those emails or that 4 innocent Americans were murdered because HER department failed to react to threats against the embassy, the ambassador and suggested that military forces that could have saved those lives, be given a stand down order.

Hillary Clinton is about as good for this country as a nuclear war with Russia is.

Derailment and bashing.  In the words of that great 20th century philosopher, Porky Pig...

That's all, folks.  :police: