Susan's Place Transgender Resources

A person on a feminists blog (cis woman) was saying ->-bleeped-<- doesn't exist. She said it was no different from believing you were born into the wrong species or the wrong race. It made me slightly mad im not going to lie. I wish she could've been born trans to know what its like. I cant explain my identity to her. I cant show her the essence of my existence. And so, I didn't respond to her post.
I wanted to know what you all thought. I don't think anyone on the planet understands the complexity of the brain- her included.

being born trans is possible the worse fate one can have. its something worse than death in my opinion and i wouldnt wish it upon even the worst of my enemies. however, you just have to let people believe what they want because in the end, its about how you feel and its you making the decision. people just want to find something to complain about because they really have nothing better to do. now the question because does it matter what she thinks? if she doesnt think trans people exist than let her think that and move on with your life for i'm pretty sure you have other stuff you need to worry about.

I would just send her the following link and if she lacks the intelligence to understand it, I would give up on the argument because it's not possible to win the argument with logic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism)

I get worked up sometime.. I cant really talk about this stuff with my family
I checked out the link.. very informative

I was told today that it was a choice.  So... not so much.  I squashed that statement.  How could I choose something like that at 5 and retain it compulsively for 45+ years. Not so much....  I wish it was a choice as it's terribly inconvenient.
I won't lie though, since accepting it I have never been so happy.  Would I really want to "choose" it gone when my acceptance is making me happy? 
I would say that it's mental in that it is my sense of identity and who I want to be. 
If the cause of that is a physical wiring issue or persistent chemical influence or the demonic gender altering influence of fairies from outer space it really doesn't matter cause the truth is that we have it, can't cure it and need to live with it. 

She is either uninformed, or bigoted, or both.

Don't worry about it. Its not your battle to fight.

I think one of the worst things I've done recently is read the comment sections on websites like CNN or MSN when they run articles on transgender topics.  The ignorance and disdain by most of the commenters is hard to take. Gee, nice to know I am mentally ill, an affront to God, and a danger to children.

I have grown up feeling damaged, wrong, perverted, ashamed, and broken.  And that's just my childhood.

Ravenna, you are not alone when it comes to the frustration and hurt one can feel because of these small-minded, boorish people.  My heart goes out to you.

Be well and stay strong,

Terri

Quote from: SarahBoo on June 15, 2015, 09:14:26 PM
She is either uninformed, or bigoted, or both.

Don't worry about it. Its not your battle to fight.

^^ This.

People posting junk like that online can hide behind their keyboards so they feel safe and they feel free to run other people down - its feels empowering to them to post bigoted and hateful comments which makes them feel better about their own lives - which is actually a very sad thing to say. They were the bullies that we knew in high school and they haven't matured one bit since then.

History will leave them and their ignorance behind in the dust. Don't let them get to you.

Life's too short.  Choose your battles wisely and don't let the knuckledraggers drag you down.

You got a problem with me?  Too bad for you.

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on June 15, 2015, 09:19:58 PM
I think one of the worst things I've done recently is read the comment sections on websites like CNN or MSN when they run articles on transgender topics.  The ignorance and disdain by most of the commenters is hard to take. Gee, nice to know I am mentally ill, an affront to God, and a danger to children.

That's why I've made a choice not to read any comments on websites at all. Really just people hiding behind a keyboard thinking they can say whatever they want.Same also goes for opinions by people on blogs websites, they all think they are an expert on everything. Oops sorry I better stop before I get going.

Don't let them get you down Ravenna!
Hugs from Raven

Quote from: Ravenna on June 15, 2015, 08:21:06 PMShe said it was no different from believing you were born into the wrong species or the wrong race.

Here is how you should respond to this kind of fallacious argument:

1) (Species) It is possible for humans to imagine or experience what it is like to be human, as well as to live in the shoes of another human being by interacting with or reading about them; however, it is not logically possible for a human to know what it is like to be a nonhuman in any real sense, just as we cannot expect a dog to know what it is like to be a squid, or a bat to know what it is like to be a velociraptor. Being transgender, however, is an experience of being human. Therefore, it is logically absurd to compare being transgender to believing one is another species because it is not possible to literally know what it is like to be another species. (Tell your friend to read Thomas Nagel's famous essay, 'What Is It Like To Be a Bat?' to go deeper into this kind of thinking, if she wishes to.)

2) (Race) Being transgender involves brain states that are describable by neuroscience. There is a neuroscientific explanation--in a general sense--of what it is like to be male or female (with some variation), and (binary) transgeder people have brains that correspond with the expectations of the gender they identify as. Race, by contrast, has no corresponding brain states. There is no 'black brain' or 'white brain' (and 'black' and 'white' are extremely vague terms, much like race itself), except in racist pseudoscience. The comparison, therefore, is without any foundation and is logically absurd. Race, moreover, is largely a social construct, like gender traits, but because race does not operate on the brain level like gender (can), and because it is more accurate to speak of geographic populations rather than 'races' (since one group of people on one side of a mountain may have very different genes than those on the other side of the mountain, even if they are 'racially' very similar-looking), race is actually even *more* of a social construct than gender.

Both arguments are common caricatures of transgender experience, but it is worth knowing that neither is actually logically or scientifically valid. You don't need to appeal to emotions to argue against such people; they're actually just plain wrong.

This is something that is part of the feminist movement.  It's not a new one.  If you found someone posting it on a blog they are likely a repeat of past sentiment of the feminist movement.

Here is an article about the current state and history:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2 (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2)

Thankfully this feminist idea is losing popularity, as it completely ignores the science of being transgender and intersex as well.

a lot of hardcore feminists have there own gender issues and some are probably ftm in denial...so many radical feminists want get rid of gender all together even to the point of looking and dressing like men...the only gender to them is genitals and chromosomes and if you were born with the "male" one your a horrible person...not all feminists think like that but the radical ones for sure... there is a feminine essence which some people have and others don't and it doesn't always match the chromosomes or private parts traditionally associated with feminine or masculine...to me that's what mtf is to me having a feminine "soul"(mind and brain in scientific terms) and "male" biology (body, chromosomes) most rad fems are masculine people so to them gender or being born in the wrong body makes no sense cause they want to reduce gender to chromosomes and private parts...

You cannot convince some people. Don't even try.

There are people who still believe the earth is flat and there are people who deny real science like climate change and basic human biology. There are people who believe that we faked the moon landing or that the UN is going to invade the USA and other such nonsense. Why waste your time?

Quote from: Ravenna on June 15, 2015, 08:21:06 PM
A person on a feminists blog (cis woman) was saying ->-bleeped-<- doesn't exist. She said it was no different from believing you were born into the wrong species or the wrong race. It made me slightly mad im not going to lie. I wish she could've been born trans to know what its like. I cant explain my identity to her. I cant show her the essence of my existence. And so, I didn't respond to her post.
I wanted to know what you all thought. I don't think anyone on the planet understands the complexity of the brain- her included.

I think anyone can be educated if they want to be. It's not hard to explain to someone willing to hear the experience and evidence that points to the fact that being transgender is not psychological, it is physiological.

However, someone who doesn't want to be educated, can't do anything about that.

I think there is an element in feminism that needs to believe that gender doesn't matter. It's been the core of their argument against sex discrimination for decades - that you need to treat men and women equally because there really is no difference other than what we define socially.

Quote from: Annabolton on June 16, 2015, 01:22:31 AM
a lot of hardcore feminists have there own gender issues and some are probably ftm in denial...so many radical feminists want get rid of gender all together even to the point of looking and dressing like men...the only gender to them is genitals and chromosomes and if you were born with the "male" one your a horrible person...not all feminists think like that but the radical ones for sure... there is a feminine essence which some people have and others don't and it doesn't always match the chromosomes or private parts traditionally associated with feminine or masculine...to me that's what mtf is to me having a feminine "soul"(mind and brain in scientific terms) and "male" biology (body, chromosomes) most rad fems are masculine people so to them gender or being born in the wrong body makes no sense cause they want to reduce gender to chromosomes and private parts...

Up to about a years ago that description would have been a bit hard for me to believe but I ran into one on another web site and the description is dead on. This is the only web site that my medical history is known and I post as genderless or female if needed and as an expert in the subject. She was calling me a man even when I explain my ID disagreed with here statement. Her picture looked very masculine and the hate in her post was incredible. I even added that I have been around a large number of gay women and they accepted me but she would't believe me.

your a beautiful woman

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Just so we are clear, there is no debate or doubt in the field of neuroscience about the causes and existence of transgender brains.

Every study done support the finding that gender brain development in mammals happens at a different time than the rest of the body, in fact some of the gender brain development happens after birth.

All human studies of transgender people show that brain structure and area sized are different in transgender people than cis people and fall much closer to the gender they identify as.

Animal testing has been done where fetuses and newly borns were exposed to different sex hormones during the development of the body and the brain, they grow up to have behaviour and brain structures of one gender while being born in the bodies of another gender.

In fact if you really want to piss off a neuroscientist just start talking about reparative therapy.

I asked a psychologist for help in the very early 80s.  I went to one in San Francisco with a gay practice and explained my orientation as bisexual and my sense of feeling like a woman and not being a man at all.  He strongly suggested, and another PhD psychologist did too, that this was just a phase for me and that I was denying my big gay bottom-ness and that being bi was also a phase.  That set me back for a long time as I continued to struggle with dysphoria and dissociation but transitioned socially to somewhat more androgynous.

Even well educated people can get us wrong.  The term Transgender wasn't even used then and not on many radars.  We are seeing a major change in the public and health care providers understanding of us.  It's about time!  I think there is also a commensurate backlash by those who feel threatened by diversity and sharing space with us.  Get used to a more colorful world ;D

One thing I notice is that they always like to put forth the view of Paul R. McHugh, the psychiatrist from Johns Hopkins. Haven't his theories been discredited numerous times?

I like to look at it this way. I don't give a crap what other people think. I have enough supportive people that I'm flourishing, I'm generally happy. I can tell that estrogen has given me a better quality of life. So while I do try to educate people, if they are morons I just say F*** them. I'll even tell them point blank I use the ladies room, I'm wearing ladies clothes, and I'm happy. My existence doesn't affect your life. There is nothing you can say or do to change that.

Quote from: Ravenna on June 15, 2015, 08:21:06 PM
A person on a feminists blog (cis woman) was saying ->-bleeped-<- doesn't exist. She said it was no different from believing you were born into the wrong species or the wrong race. It made me slightly mad im not going to lie. I wish she could've been born trans to know what its like. I cant explain my identity to her. I cant show her the essence of my existence. And so, I didn't respond to her post.
I wanted to know what you all thought. I don't think anyone on the planet understands the complexity of the brain- her included.

Oh god the terfs.... They are the worst. They try to claim that we are using male privilege to define what a women is by us being stereotypically feminine. They try to define us with the outdated gender binary language and it doesn't work. They see gender as two mutually exclusive categories, and they can't see past that because they have never had the trans experience. They also don't have much experience with us and that helps them believe that the stereotypical trans character is what we are. That allows them to say things like trans women are fake and sexist because we actually overly feminine. When that isn't the case at all wrong are all different and we express femininity and masculinity in our own way just like cis people.

Gabrielle's already mentioned the good stuff re Thomas Nagel - it's always lovely when some decent philosophy is brought into things.  ;)

Yet their argument is absolutely absurd.... I could declare anything real as a social construct. Real as in three dimensional object or person. Let's start with buses. I don't believe buses exist - they're just made up in the minds of a few weirdoes and perpetuated by a morally decrepit 'bus accepting' society. They even, apparently, want to use special bus garages to park in and expect to be treated the same as other vehicles.

But they simply don't exist. Excuse me while I attempt to cross the road  :-* Tell my family I loved them...

For a lot of people, me included, the problem is that when we talk about "gender" as opposed to physical sex, we appear to be talking about something which is largely a social construct.

A lot of people, again me included, do not see gender definition and gender performance as anything much beyond a political tool of social control - and thus I think talking about gender often pushes the wrong buttons.

Now i'm here - so obviously I get it that this is NOT what most of us ARE talking about - but I also get why the language we use can lead to misunderstanding and hostility from certain groups. It plays on their insecurities.

I've found that when I talk about bodily dysphoria and my NEED to modify the physical sexual characteristics of my body, then most of the oposition and hostility melts away.

Now admittedly that isnt going to be much help for anyone who doesnt suffer from bodily dysphoria and has no desire to modify their sexual characteristics, and for them I do feel sorry because its rather unfair that you land a load of hostilty. I wish that wasn't so, but for the rest of us at least, just changing the emphasis from gender and gender performance to sexual characteristics often gets you a sudden penny dropping moment when they suddenly realise that you aren't doing this to attack and invalidate their beliefs about the arbitrary nature of gender - and that actually there is an existential reality to your motication.

I too am a bus-thiest Missy.  They are just an organized power hungry organization intent on putting up signs and waiting areas in urban areas. 

Seriously, it's hard to explain to people who don't have it.  All my life I wanted to check the box that said F and hated having to check M.  I can't get people to understand that much let alone that I want my body to be that of a woman. 

Antonia has a good response which is to simply note any one of the studies performed in the past 15 years on the physical differences between trans and non trans brains.  Transwomen have similar numbers of SOM neurons to cis women and transmen are similar to cis men.  The white matter distribution for trans folk is different from cis but not a match to either.  These are studies before hormones are applied.  I don't remember deeper details right now but it was easy to find when I last looked for physical causes of ->-bleeped-<-.

Im all for equality amongst the sexes and that's why I was on the blog.. but some feminists are
jaded and vindictive and well just plain ignorant.. Like the girl who's post I read..
Amber all of the things the feminists on that blog were preaching was true to what you said
That is the exact same vibe I was getting
I think there is a difference between a humanitarian feminist and an exclusively cis-feminist

Quote from: Ravenna on June 17, 2015, 01:33:22 AM
Im all for equality amongst the sexes and that's why I was on the blog.. but some feminists are
jaded and vindictive and well just plain ignorant.. Like the girl who's post I read..
Amber all of the things the feminists on that blog were preaching was true to what you said
That is the exact same vibe I was getting
I think there is a difference between a humanitarian feminist and an exclusively cis-feminist

I have dealt with these kinda feminist. They are the worst. Their logic just runs in circles. And it's all based on the idea that we are men and have male privilege. The terf I argued with recently used the common terf method of saying, "You aren't a women because you don't have the shared experiences of a woman."

At first she listed child birth and periods (both things that not all cis women experience). Then she went on to list a bunch of things that I do experience. Like fear of getting raped when I walk alone at night, like income inequality, and the beauty standards that society puts on women. All of those things not only effect us but they effect us more then cis women ( higher percentage of sexual assual and harassment, harder time finding jobs to begin with, and the obstacle of testosterone poisoning). That's not even bringing up that many cis women don't experience those the same way.

They change that we are trying to refine womanhood and using male privilege to do so (we each define what makes us a women for ourselves not other people). I'm really bothered by this because they don't recognize at all their own cis privilege. So they were being totally hypocritical because they are trying to strictly define womenhood using their cis privilege and thus enforcing cis privilege.

I am very much a feminist. most modern day feminist, the ones who  are activists and in the trenches fighting for equality, are intersectional feminist. And they are awesome, I love them. So much so that I won't date any one who isn't an intersection feminist.

Also sorry for the rant I read a terf article and I didn't want to comment because of safety reasons so I had to vent hear instead.

Quote from: Ravenna on June 17, 2015, 01:33:22 AM
I think there is a difference between a humanitarian feminist and an exclusively cis-feminist

Yea there are different schools of feminist. The second wave feminist basically just cares about white middle class cis women. Modern intersectional feminist try to focus more on women who are at different intersections and face things other then just sexism. Like racism, ableism, cis-sexism and trans phobia, and poverty.

Quote from: Rejennyrated on June 16, 2015, 03:19:10 PM
For a lot of people, me included, the problem is that when we talk about "gender" as opposed to physical sex, we appear to be talking about something which is largely a social construct.

A lot of people, again me included, do not see gender definition and gender performance as anything much beyond a political tool of social control - and thus I think talking about gender often pushes the wrong buttons.

Now i'm here - so obviously I get it that this is NOT what most of us ARE talking about - but I also get why the language we use can lead to misunderstanding and hostility from certain groups. It plays on their insecurities.

I've found that when I talk about bodily dysphoria and my NEED to modify the physical sexual characteristics of my body, then most of the oposition and hostility melts away.

Now admittedly that isnt going to be much help for anyone who doesnt suffer from bodily dysphoria and has no desire to modify their sexual characteristics, and for them I do feel sorry because its rather unfair that you land a load of hostilty. I wish that wasn't so, but for the rest of us at least, just changing the emphasis from gender and gender performance to sexual characteristics often gets you a sudden penny dropping moment when they suddenly realise that you aren't doing this to attack and invalidate their beliefs about the arbitrary nature of gender - and that actually there is an existential reality to your motication.

Give this woman a prize.
My sex and gender are interlinked. I'm very much altering my sexual characteristics to match my gender. My documents that have the word "sex"'on them do or will say female.

Thing is, we suffer a very similar standard of oppression when it comes to the posit that we're just reinforcing gender norms constructed by the patriarchy. Which to a large degree they are! Make-up, shaving my legs, living in fear of my moussed and sprayed hair getting wet. These things are inconvenient!!! As a prettified object I am loath to do things, loath to behave certain ways - yet I've done this to myself. Why? Partially it's self-serving, on the basis that I enjoy looking like that. Whether it's a construct or not, I'm happy with the way I look. Which can be the same for any woman: cis or trans or gay or straight or whatever. Sometimes feminine modes of expression come from within, rather than without.

Which could be a 'bad feminist' thing to say - however it's fair to say that inverting the above and dressing and acting masculine is still responding to the patriarchy, albeit in a different way. To intentionally 'man up' is still recognising the gender constructs and responding to them. The genuine feminist, or at least me, would ignore the whole thing entirely and get on with life; whether in a nice blouse or a crap tee shirt.

Yet that's difficult to do, or at least to accept the difference and get on with it is. As feminists we ought to ignore what men want altogether and go with what we'd like to do; to have an entirely personal expression completely away from gender. To wit: I might love a particular jacket or a necklace or a pair of big sunglasses. As long as I don't buy them with the intention of attracting a man (which I really, really don't), then that's fine. Similarly if a man wanted to wear them, I wouldn't care either. But such utopia doesn't exist.

What does is a patriarchal power structure that oppresses us in a way that's simultaneously identical and quite different. # Oxymoron # No it isn't and here's why.

Women are generally supposed, by the men, to exhibit certain feminine traits. Whilst this is unfair, to do so is entirely natural. For those who are straight, there's the issue that not doing so labels one as masculine or dominant, thus undesirable. Therefore she cuts herself off from potential relationships, life chances and whatever. It's perfectly possible for a woman to come under (sometimes literal) attack for not being femme enough. We've heard of the 'geezer birds' and 'ladettes' and stuff being pilloried in Murdoch's mucky media. It is disgusting. It's horrid and I hate it, but it happens!!!!  :(

Where do we fit in? Well we're, as the MTF's of this world, also just as vulnerable to patriarchal attack. If not more. We are, if you'll allow harsh language, perverts and deviants and sex offenders. That we aren't is irrelevant when confronted by an ignorant bloke with clenched fists. Thus it doesn't do for us to go out with a beard or wearing men's clothes and having short hair. To present as less convincing than we're capable of being, to not bother so much, is potentially injurious. When I go out, I make sure to be, at least, passable for my own safety. I prefer to be able to walk around without being beaten up for being a ->-bleeped-<- whatsit. As such an enhanced degree of femininity is sometimes necessary to accomplish this. I have to think about gender cues, currently, and how to make sure that my appearance is somehow proclaiming 'F'. It has to!!!

Therefore we all end up reinforcing what's seen as oppressive on the basis that 1) Some of us quite like being feminine 2) To not be feminine risks demoting us from 'female' to '->-bleeped-<-' in the perceptions of the man on the street. Which could lead to insult, physical harm, murder and worse (there's worse).

It's responding to their oppression, but I'd rather do that than attempt a subversion. Or another way, I'm not overly bothered if I upset a few TERFs. Upsetting a crowd of lager drinkers spilling out of a pub is a far more real concern.

And this is why we NEED feminism!!!!  :) It's vital that we work to stop this kind of thing and aim for the neutralised ideal I outlined. Then this kind of stuff would be less necessary. Currently it is, and we suffer together. Different reasons but same effect. Imagine we're all on the same sinking ship, but it's leaking in two different places.

I've fallen off the soapbox now, but hope one day to write something that'll change a few minds. We don't need infighting, as the left is prone to do, we need greater cohesion in order to actually shift this great, dead weight pressing us all into the dirt.

What is so stupid is how do they know.. seriously.. are they the creator of the universe the know all of everything.. I mean heck, people once thought the world was flat..
Don't take that stuff seriously.. there are always going to be people who don't understand or want to hurt others.
Just live.. we are free and deserve it.. I stay away from the negative stuff.. I don't even read it .I wont do it..It means nothing to me.. they will all be proven wrong and in our pink or blue dust... trans is beautiful  we are special.. I love my like she can kiss my new brazillian butt lift I am getting tomorrow and both my new girls.
Keri AKA Dodie
URRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

Transsexualism is a term anti-trans people made up to pathologize and dismiss transpeople. If you want to argue with someone using coded hate-speech, by all means go ahead. I don't think you'll get anywhere. Just remember they aren't thinking or able to use reason or empathy when their faith and belief guides their judgement. Their mind was made up a long time ago, and debate isn't ever going to change what they believe to be true. That's just how they feel. It sucks that TERFs and people from other marginalized groups perpetuate the marginalization of others, but if this world were fair, we wouldn't need doctor's and therapist's notes to legitimize ourselves.
What we do with our bodies is no one else's business, and how we identify is how we should be treated, end of story.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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If you want to make her mad, just tell her she's being uppity, but I'd advise you to not engage. No one wins an argument or flame war. And being a troll is kinda gross.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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