Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Background: I am a MtF, not transitioning yet. Would be able to start hrt in next 4 years.
Blockers: telling at work (major), telling mom (minor).

Intro

My approach is -- I am making small steps and probe how far this can go without say. Living in the Netherlands. The only place I really have to come as a man right now is work. For that purpose I have a small pile of mens clothing. Things I tried so far are:

1. Shaving my body, to which nobody reacted
2. Wearing female t-shirt sometimes; mostly because I run out of mens clothing. Poeple react to this with some stares but nothing that would make me feel discomfy.
3. Sometimes speaking in an almost female voice. Ppl do rise eyebrows but do carry on.

First bump?

Recently, I moved to another location in the building. Today I tried:

4. Wearing an openly feminine watch; it is a shiny one and yea it draws attention. Most people would give it a stare but they do carry on.

Background to this: the Netherlands is a LGBT friendly country. I've seen men wearing pink plastic watches and nobody giving a flying f... . Since wearing my actual watch at work is a next small step, I made this move.

More background: My company's position to me being a 'transgender outside working hours' is neutral. Not that they said it. There I mean that I am confident they won't fire me for being myself on my own time. To complete the picture - it is unknown to me whether company would actually be 100% cool with transition. That is actually possible.

But today there was that female colleague that passes near me frequently, and does make face like she is going to laugh while keeping eye contact. I classify that as the response of a cis woman who feels female space being already invaded by a man wearing watch that she perceives doesn't match his sex. Thus, she pushes back by response that aims to make the 'perpetrator' feel uncomfy.

Oh boy, that goes into endangering 'safe work environment'. And it could be a debate whether she is endangering it by her response, or is it me by wearing the watch. I don't think I am ready for it, because discussion could fall back to coming out at work. And I am not ready to come out yet as the outcome could be getting myself slowly but surely fired. Not ready for that yet, but will be in the future.

So, yeah, thinking about that chain of events, if for an instant, I actually felt like crap. Thinking that someone can openly ridicule me in such a subtle way. Probably that would have gone otherwise if I tried the experiment with watch in a month since people who heard me discussing usual stuff are not quick to throw such random vices at me. Unfortunately, that woman and I just met. Sigh...

Any thoughts? Here are mine-

I have two courses of action: 1) as long as it is that single person, just carry on until it is escalated by the colleague; then give them some of your thoughts through filing harassment complaints; 2) just withdraw and meditate over it.

The thing is - it is my watch, I wear it everywhere so it is annoying I have to deal with this.

P.S.
Maybe 'coming out (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,29.0.html)' is a better forum? I'd remove the topic and repost it there, but in that case I could lose a reply because the topic got removed.

I did something similar. Grew my nails long and began putting gloss nail enamel. Also began growing my hair long. No one said anything except one coworker who ended up becoming a nice ally.

Next I started HRT. My face gradually feminized, but it was so gradual, again no one noticed.

Then I pierced my ears.

Suddenly people were staring at me and asking me what it was all about. Weird that ear piercing tipped the balance.

I think in general, people don't like to comment. They figure it's none of their business and they don't want something heavy laid on them. Remember, LGBT or not, we all gender people as one of the binary genders, and if they still see you as a guy with feminine touches, they'll treat you accordingly.

My journey at work and my overall presentation was this.

I started to shave every day. Yes, this. Because I was a bearded brogrammer before that.

Then I started glossing and growing my nails.

I started wearing women's undershirts. Started taking low dose E only. Stopped after a month.

Started seeing a therapist. Started dressing underneath including panties and a bra. Wore fem tops under my clothes. Wore men's skinny jeans.

Switched to women's jeans. First day, nobody really noticed. Third day or so actually the CTO's assistant and dept coordinator noticed, and said, "so you're taking a selfie in your skinny jeans?"

Then I gradually just stopped wearing any men's clothes except a large fleece or sweater over my clothes. It was winter. PERFECT. Winter is the perfect time to cover up. I had started HRT on 12/1/14. I go to all my appointments fully dressed. I don't want to be misgendered. It happened once when I had the fleece on. Never again. I went to all my electrology fully dressed. And of course, to therapy dressed up. Still wearing pants (I haven't worn a skirt or dress to work yet but that will happen this week).

Meanwhile my hair is growing, my body is shaping with HRT including my breasts.

Eventually the veil began being removed, little by little. Summer helped push me. And today? I ditched the last of it.  (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,190677.0.html)

You are reading a lot into her intentions and motivations behind her actions. It could very well be as you think it is but you have to be sure before making an official complaint. Doing that could not only turn people against you if you are wrong at a time when you might need support from your coworkers in the near future, but also put you in an uncomfortable situation with the management of you aren't ready to come out yet.

If I were you, next time she stares at you, just say hi or good morning in a friendly way. Her reaction to that will give you a clearer idea of her attitude. Give her the benefit of the doubt, it's then up to her what she does with your goodwill.

Be nice. Be courteous. But never be offended. People are naturally curious and generally are uncomfortable with change. Give them a little leeway. Don't let them openly harass you though.

It sounds as though you are just starting your journey. You will face many such situations in the future. Be confident and happy. Disarm them with kindness.

My best to yo.

Cindi

Thanks for the thoughts and support.

Compared to situations I've had in the outside world, this was but a minor bump.

In Amsterdam, it is mostly tourists and immigrants who give me trouble. The difference is I am much more confident about everything when not having to worry about keeping the job. Would post eventually about what I call anti-clocking /shaming ppl for clocking/.

Certainty about the watch being the ground zero comes from many opportunities to test. As an experiment, I took the watch off and put it away on my desk so it is not immediatelly visible. The woman would hold back the expression on her face until she'd find the watch. Then back the eyes to me to show - found it! I did say a nice hi on the second pass; but got no words back. Altogether the impression blends to appearance that I am an 'it' for her.

Part of my job is to work with people, observe them, figure them out, then make them do what I want and make them happy about it. Conclusions I posted are educated observations. Those were just unfortunate circumstances that the woman didn't get the chance to know me first. We will even that out with time.

@suzifrommd
So perhaps we can say it is worth testing if the shiny objects draw more attention than usual.
I will get my ears pierced eventually but un/fortunately by then new ppl will get to know me.

Quote from: Squircle on June 18, 2015, 03:22:53 AMIt could very well be as you think it is but you have to be sure before making an official complaint.

Actually, I thought this covered in 'carrying on until the situation is escalated by her'. My approach to handling situations usually exercises more patience than it is required. It is likely other ppl would report it sooner than I without my knowledge. Retaliation for reporting is not an option, at least not where I work. However, retaliation is a very vaid concern @Squircle. In some other work place, I might need to just suck it up until it gets better or until I quit myself.

The tactics is in one half what @Cindi suggested. It *is* about taking punches and being nice until it gets better -- or worse. That is, 'give them all space they need to correct themselves, or to make a mistake'. That is, until intolerance is expressed verbally or physically in front of a couple+ of witnesses. Once we are rolling down the worse path, a cooldown period should be allowed as shame is a powerful game changer. Otherwise, witness statements and my report shall go to ppl with power to smite.

I'm sorry I don't mean to sound weird , but it seems like your worry an awful lot about the kind of watch you wear that could of been a watch from a friend that moved away.  I mean if all of a sudden you appeared in a dress I could understand concern.

Wear the watch (since you know that is the object of her looking at you), and next time she makes eye contact ask, "What's up? I've noticed you pay attention to my pretty watch..."

And let her tell you.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on June 18, 2015, 09:52:39 PM
Wear the watch (since you know that is the object of her looking at you), and next time she makes eye contact ask, "What's up? I've noticed you pay attention to my pretty watch..."

And let her tell you.

Alright, that is a way to go. :)

My preference however is to have the other person mention it first. Otherwise, me being specific leaves a very nice option for their denial and counterattack. And a loud one (witnesses):

- What watch? Look, I don't know what you want, you have been watching me all these days. Leave me alone! Please!

Intent is very hard to prove. I'd let the other side be specific.

Update... since day two, the woman is just ignoring me completely. :) I am happy with that.

The rest is all peaceful. There is just some surprise on faces of my man colleagues, but nothing they'd actually say out loud. I can only watch that 'dude!' stare until it is gone.

As for the female part, some women started greeting me although that was not the case before. Yay. Outside work, I generally meet good approval rate from Dutch women who notice I am not cis. Just that one female colleague got this... proud? posture and act when around me. Can't really define yet what's on her mind. Who cares.

Besides, this is the watch:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Guess+Prism+16540L1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=B-KIVc-VHIPX7QbJjrC4Aw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg

And I forgot one thing. Since six months or so I also use cosmetic products that add some shine to the facial skin. I was getting some glances for that but people got used to it in a few weeks.

Things about watch kind of fell in their place. Thanks for the read!

per your request i will be glad to move it there.
Mariah

Quote from: michellemartine on June 17, 2015, 01:16:46 PM
P.S.
Maybe 'coming out (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,29.0.html)' is a better forum? I'd remove the topic and repost it there, but in that case I could lose a reply because the topic got removed.

Alright, that girl is cool now.

But today there was another incident. I've got that colleague who is really good at insulting people and getting away with it. Today on a daily meeting he used a board behind me to write -

"It is a trap."

So that everyone else in the room sees the text near me sitting in a chair.
Then he hung his badge and drew an arrow from text to the badge.

I was like - really?!

Smart played. Smart played...
I got my first man stalker it seems.

Just keep wearing the watch with pride. Don't worry about the rude reactions_ they most likely are reacting like this because you are wearing part male attire, and now part female attire (with the feminine watch)_ and so it comes across a little unbalanced, confusing and awkward. You know that you are not weird but just trying to transition. What you are gaining is a comfort level with wearing the feminine watch; and that's really valuable. Just keep wearing it and people will get used to it, and you will get to a point where you just can wear it without worry. At some point, choose to add another feminine element: foundation, mascara, getting a manicure, lip gloss, or any other feminine element that you can think of being comfortable with adding. Then just keep going with it- If you can just start wearing grey women's business slacks and maybe a women's business suit blazer so you wont be wearing a combination of female and male that wont clash so much.   

It really gets a lot easier when you can get to the point where you can dress to the nines like a woman.
Harassment will still be there but you are just happier when you can live the way you want to live and let everyone else adjust to it rather than you making the adjustments to please everyone else.   

It kind of works this way when you try to merge the female into your world ever so slowly.

Hey pink. :)

Thanks for your comment. Yeah, I agree mixed appearance can produce more volatile reactions than a binary one. Please let me add just a bit more context --

Beside the watch, I was and am already wearing shirts that are feminine but single colored and just t shirts. My eyebrows are trimmed, and my face under a skin care regiment. I am already androgyne when I wear a simple hoodie. Sometimes by accident I would start talking to myself in feminine voice. The way I see it, a wig and removed facial hair will make me passable as far as the appearance goes. FFS isn't coming soon.

So, it is not the watch only, but it is the watch that triggered attention of a woman. Imo, this man colleague was reacting to a broader context. But my hands are tied until I come out there. Hence, "well played...". And maybe it is time I came out, at least as a TG, so things like "it is a trap" become recognized harassment if repeated.

Update.

Adding more stuff. Yesterday I started coming in heeled sandals. It was day for an internal business dinner; walked with my mgr for 1/2 mi like that. Those sandals force feminine walk in a way. Not a word gotten about it.

Soon to add a sleeveless hoodie that is but feminine.

However, it is hard to keep mouth shut. I am on a man's team, and there are remarks about the opposite sex; they are in the range of polite talk, but their nature implies I was a man too, which really itches me to have it out. Keeping it to myself still.

That's been one of the hardest things for me at work.  Talking with the guys in my department about girls and relationships and stuff in a chauvinistic kinda way, and I have to play along or bite my tongue.  I feel like I'm living a double life and when those worlds collide, it can be difficult to figure out how to act so I don't "offend" one party or the other.

I applaud you for dressing the way you do at work.  I wish I could just throw away all my boy pants and just exclusively wear girl pants, but I need to get some shoes to match.  I also want some girl shirts that I can wear without being overly obvious about it, but I haven't pursued that yet.  I've got some girl pants though and I wear them with my boy polo shirts and my girl shoes (heels), and I wear earrings and nail polish and sometimes a bit of makeup.  It's fun isn't it?  Just adding things slowly and nobody seems to say anything much along the way.  :)

There is the opposite end of the double life story. I remember start of Spring 2015. During lunch one female colleague was talking about dresses she ordered. And I held myself but a moment before I started to enumerate dresses that *I* bought. Omg, got adrenaline rush. That one was close.

So coming out and not having to hide anymore would allow me to actually be full time. Right now I am full time except on the work + commuting to/from work.

On Monday I start going to work in tight jeans. Will let them see shape of my buttocks.

More and more of my man clothing is getting decommissioned.

Time we started a countdown for you Hon!

How long before FT?

Quote from: Cindy on August 22, 2015, 06:18:53 AM
Time we started a countdown for you Hon!

How long before FT?

Thanks :) point taken. Indeed, they are/will be seeing me in female pants, shirts, heeled sandals, girly sneakers, with less and less beard, and other stuff, but big gap is the barren head. I will have to come out with that less than ignorable jump by coming in with wig over it.

Besides, I am horrified of countdowns, they'd keep reminding me how much time I have left to endure. I would like to do things asap, and start 'counters since' instead.

I plan to come out to my mom in coming months.

I didn't resist it. After I put on tight jeans, also a femme shirt had to go on with them. Then I also picked heeled sandals.

That's it for today. I plan to put on a wig as soon as I leave building where I work and go shopping. But it would be heavy rain, so might just put it on and go home. This would become a regular thing. Easier than to first go home and get dressed up, BUT will still have to show off my beard shadow this way. :(

Wish me luck. :)

Gotta share this. I said already I do have a nice bum. Here is what happened today...

Today I walked first with one group of people through the building, then with another group of people. I was not leading them or anything, usual walks between meetings.

In both groups, everyone and literally everyone would let me go first. Even women. I intentionally stopped multiple times to let others pass me, and they wouldn't! They'd stop to have conversation or something. In the end, I'd move and everyone else after me.

Wow, that's flattering. But as described above, I only missed a wig and a clean face to pass. Like I pass on the street.  Oh, the breast were missing too...

So it went well. Will keep wearing tight jeans at work. And elsewhere. Yepee!

You go girl! It's a great feeling isn't it? :)
As I only have tight jeans in my wardrobe I didn't really have much choice in what to wear when I went to my last job interview in December. The receptionist of the building looked at me and said: "Hello miss, can I help you?" I quickly mumbled the name of the company I was looking for and went to the interview, trying to be as manly as possible(ha ha...)

Quote from: Lynne on August 24, 2015, 02:14:26 PMAs I only have tight jeans in my wardrobe

That is how it is going to get here soon. More male clothing to decommission.
I wore those man pants when I had like 15 kilos more... that is like 33 pounds I lost since January. And counting.

Tomorrow adding feminine sleeveless hoodie. It is raining here. Starting to go to work without fake breast but with a wig. All I need doing is take the wig off while on work. Still shame for having beard shadow...

wow, just been reading.

Esentially your slowly Introducing yourself to work :) this has the advantage of being less of a shock :)

I admire anyone who can come out on the job successfully.  I didn't do it all the way and was all about clues and hints that most didn't notice or they simply considered me gay.  Like others here I had a woman's watch and jewelry, long nails and long hair.  No one ever said a thing to my face but I am pretty scrappy in a confrontation.  In the end what they think never really mattered at all, I still get to be me. ;)

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on August 25, 2015, 06:44:21 PM
Esentially your slowly Introducing yourself to work :) this has the advantage of being less of a shock :)

That was the plan. But see... after the office seemed to be silently accepting my ass shape exposed, I am beginning to act rather impulsively. After only two days of tight jeans it is probably not time to add another item -- like the hoodie. Reasonable would be to wait for two weeks to pass so people get accustomed to it. But today I will not only go with the hoodie but also in gray-pink sneakers. I was so annoyed I could wear them elsewhere but not to work. Today that ends.

Dysphoria is so strong, I really want to get rid of all men clothing and introduce the full set of women stuff. That drive might get in the way of doing things slowly. Desire to go FT is strong, since the work is the only place where I still have to physically present as a man.

Does your HR department know about all of this?  You might have mentioned it in an earlier post that I read, but I don't remember, sorry!  >_<  I'm really proud of you for taking these steps.  I'm also envious that your job has a dress code that allows you to wear jeans and hoodies and sneakers and whatever else it sounds like too!  I have to wear boring slacks every day with polo shirts.  But at least it's girl slacks and polos mostly now.  :)

You should definitely take it slowly.  I've been changing my attire at work over the past 3 months now, and things were going just fine until I wore one of my girl polo shirts for the first time this week on Mon/Tues.  People started staring at me and looking me up and down!  It was slightly uncomfortable, lol, but no comments.  So I'm back to a boy polo today to hopefully soothe the restless natives, hehe.

Congrats on that weight loss too, it's nice to not have to carry around a small child with you all day isn't it?

I just want to box up all my boy clothes and never see them again sometime too, but I must wait, so I'm just thinning the wardrobe down to the essentials for now to make room for more girl stuff.  :)

Indeed one is lucky to have employer that gives a lot of freedom when it comes to cis dressing at least. Crossdressing is how my appearance is perceived, so there could be some spots I don't want to poke. Now that I showed off today, I can keep it at that level in weeks to come.

Of course dysphoria pushes me to keep getting slimmer. Me in a tight shirt pulled in pants, which I didn't do at work yet, would intrigue many female colleagues if not make them envious. Femme shirts I wear at work are wide enough to conceal my shape.

All in all, this is a great progress... I am wearing 'passable' female clothing both at work and outside it.

Still could not resist it. Tighter shirt yday to show my narrow rib cage and flat belly.

That drew attention of many women and one man. I mean they watched me for an extended period of time. Otherwise, boys are sweet when they get confused and drop things out of their hands!

Toned it down today. Normal shirt. :-)

Wow you are sure skirting close to the edge!

(see what I did there?  :laugh:)

Good luck with your stealth transition.

I stayed firmly in guy mode with my levis and button down shirts with my boobs sticking out just a bit and guy haircut through my last day, totally boring and bland and predictable - just another random dude.

When I showed back up as myself as work 3 days later it was in full girl mode with heels and nails and tight skinny jeans, looking much better. People never saw any of it coming  :laugh:

Just heard word '->-bleeped-<-'. One timer will pass. Second one will be mentioned upstream.

At my company the immediate hr only needs to know if I legally change sex. I should already have management to back me up by default.

Today I am taking the jeans thing to the last notch. Skin tight jeans at work. Wish me luck.

That went okay. Definitely got many looks and one man with very weird comments on the whole me but that is it.

Congrats!  So what's left?  :)

Thanks.
Only wig and breasts not added yet. Hopefully will grow the latter.

So, conclusion, it worked. I pushed and found little to no resistance.

This is also an experience outside work, since I can't always find enough privacy to put on a wig. When I am like that, I noticed that guys will rather stand in a tram than sit near me, while women don't think twice. They just sit and we respect each other's space. I like it.

Currently I am starting to collect information and then hopefully talk with company representatives about full time.

That will be a relief for dysphoria. Full time. I am a lazy girl with below average prettiness, thus not an icon of femininity for sure. But just being myself and getting treated as the right gender will make my life longer.

The last month was both stressful and fruitful.

My dysphoria got so strong I decided to find and approach the right HR people and the management.

If I am to trust their words, my full time is coming soon. Feels like about to be finally set free.
It will be hard work educating people, I *am* the only one in the department that is almost 1k people. But the management will be with me.

On the stress side, it was not my intent to lose 5kg of weight in a single month. It had to stop.