Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Has anybody else ever thought of this? I mean, we're trans, or varying degrees of trans. It happens to us, so why not other animals? Then again, it's not like many of them talk, and the ones who do never seem to say anything about it.

Gender roles aren't forced upon animals, or at least not to their understanding, so I wouldn't say that there would be a way for animals to know nor understand.

It does happen in fish.
With clownfish when the female dies the more alpha male changes into the female. I was curious about it too a few months ago and looked into it a little bit. Also female hyenas can enlarge their clitoris to simulate the male penis. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

Well I have thought that some species of animal would find transition harder than others - can you imagine a peacock dealing with getting its plumage being removed? But other than that it's probably a moot point - animals have very differently arranged biologies, "social" structures (where they exist at all) and thought processes. Yes, homosexual behaviour is extremely common amongst many animal species but as we've long pointed out - sexual behaviour is not gender identity.

Yes, many animal species have extremely differentiated appearances and instinctual behaviours based on their sex chromosomes, but is it a gender differentiation? I don't think so. As humans we've developed very rigid socially based gender structures based around birth assigned sex where conformity is expected (if not mandatory). For most trans people that's where the largest part of their internalised disassociation comes from. Many species have no social structure beyond their tribe/pack and I think they're probably too concerned with staying alive on a day to day basis to have concerns about gender getting in the way.

Quote from: RaptorChops on July 10, 2015, 05:35:12 PM
It does happen in fish.
With clownfish when the female dies the more alpha male changes into the female. I was curious about it too a few months ago and looked into it a little bit. Also female hyenas can enlarge their clitoris to simulate the male penis. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

That's a biological process. In the case of clown fish it's an innate genetic response to an external stimulus, in the case of female hyenas it's because their testosterone is biologically extremely high.

What about lesbian, gay or Bi animals? I've heard about some male animals mounting other male animals (horses and dogs) but dogs will mount the friendly leg if they're not properly raised.

Humans are the only animals whose brains develop after birth.

For that reason, our brain development doesn't happen in sync with our body. That's why, I would imagine, that our brain gender develops at a different time from our body sex, and therefore in a different hormonal environment.

I'm not sure this is true of animals.

Quote from: Kova V on July 10, 2015, 05:50:55 PM
What about lesbian, gay or Bi animals? I've heard about some male animals mounting other male animals (horses and dogs) but dogs will mount the friendly leg if they're not properly raised.

Yes, many species of animal are homosexual/bisexual. But sexuality is not gender identity. Please stay on topic.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 10, 2015, 05:44:15 PM
That's a biological process. In the case of clown fish it's an innate genetic response to an external stimulus...

Well to me the point is there is proof in nature that change of sex is well possible...

Yes, but sadly only if there is a genetic process or catalyst in place for that to happen. All humans start off biologically female in the womb but even though there is a change for slightly more than half of us to biologically male that appears to be a one way street (same with the clown fish I believe). If you could find a way to reverse the change for transwomen and precipitate the change for trans men I'm sure we'd all be very happy. But I'd argue that being biologically able to change sex isn't the same as being transgender. It's not as if the clown fish thinks "I really wish I was a female", it's an environmental catalyst.

A friend of mine had a dog who fit this description.  Male genitalia but peed like a female, was perpetually getting topped by other male dogs (and seemed to seek that out), was extremely prissy... he didn't just act female, he seemed exaggerate female stereotypes.

Dogs supposedly grow to have the mental capacity of a 4-year old.  How many 4-year olds know that they've been misgendered?  Enough for me to suspect that dogs can be trans.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 10, 2015, 06:55:45 PM
Yes, but sadly only if there is a genetic process or catalyst in place for that to happen. All humans start off biologically female in the womb but even though there is a change for slightly more than half of us to biologically male that appears to be a one way street (same with the clown fish I believe). If you could find a way to reverse the change for transwomen and precipitate the change for trans men I'm sure we'd all be very happy. But I'd argue that being biologically able to change sex isn't the same as being transgender. It's not as if the clown fish thinks "I really wish I was a female", it's an environmental catalyst.

Well to me what is important is the biological possibility.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,149304.msg1682002.html#msg1682002
"Those post-operative male-to-female transsexuals who amuse themselves with the peculiar statement that they still have a penis, but that it's just turned inside-out should note that not only do they not have a penis, but they don't even have skin of the penis any more ....
It also responds to hormones in an identical way as does a normal vagina..."

and I'd say there is some hope for future possibilities...

Quote from: sparrow on July 10, 2015, 07:01:19 PM
A friend of mine had a dog who fit this description.  Male genitalia but peed like a female, was perpetually getting topped by other male dogs (and seemed to seek that out), was extremely prissy... he didn't just act female, he seemed exaggerate female stereotypes.

Dogs supposedly grow to have the mental capacity of a 4-year old.  How many 4-year olds know that they've been misgendered?  Enough for me to suspect that dogs can be trans.

Yes, you're not the only one :) There are quite a few people who report similar occurences :)

hugs

Quote from: sparrow on July 10, 2015, 07:01:19 PM
he didn't just act female, he seemed exaggerate female stereotypes.

That may well be true but we should always be careful about applying human behavioural traits to animals. Certain behaviours - like fear or aggression - can be considered universal human and animal behaviours. Everything else is open to human interpretation and, as humans, we nearly always ascribe anthropomorphic traits and behaviours to animals. Leg lifting to pee in canines and is specifically about marking territory and is triggered by hormone changes. It may be the dog had a hormone imbalance. Also, dogs are pack animals - their human family is their pack, if they have only one human then that is their alpha - they acquire behaviour from their pack and their alpha. So "prissy" behaviour may be an acquired trait.

I'm not saying that dogs can't be trans but casual observations and the application of anthropomorphic traits will only confirm what we want to believe about animals rather than getting to the root of their psychology.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 10, 2015, 07:20:36 PM
I'm not saying that dogs can't be trans but casual observations and the application of anthropomorphic traits will only confirm what we want to believe about animals rather than getting to the root of their psychology.

Not being a dog person, I don't really have grounds to argue on the nature of dog behavior.  I'm open to the idea that dogs can be transgender based on that single anecdote, coupled with my understanding of canine mental capacity.  Likewise with primates, where I recall hearing of males taking on female roles... where it's hard to say yes or no about a given animal (we can't ask them), I can't take seriously the notion that ->-bleeped-<- is a unique human experience.

Quote from: Matthew on July 10, 2015, 05:34:08 PM
Gender roles aren't forced upon animals, or at least not to their understanding, so I wouldn't say that there would be a way for animals to know nor understand.

Many species actually do have social gender roles. Take lion prides for example where the male is head of the pride and the females are the hunters or wolves where the alpha male and female have different roles. Animals do have gender roles, they just aren't used as a way of stereotyping and degrading a certain gender like how humans typically use gender roles.

I believe there are transgender animals too and the first thing I thought of when I saw the question was hyenas. I remember learning about a particular type, spotted hyenas I think, where the females have the dominant, more masculine gender roles (as compared to other types of hyenas) and they even have genitals that resemble the male's. I wonder if it's possible that type of hyena evolved that way because the transgender members of the species branched off and formed their own group.

Quote from: MugwortPsychonaut on July 10, 2015, 05:25:46 PM
It happens to us, so why not other animals?

And there's the rub.

Is their a genetic basis for being trans? Maybe if their is a genetic sequence that codes for "trans-ness" that can be found in humans, maybe the same genetic sequence could be found in other animals?

Quote from: rachel89 on July 11, 2015, 01:21:41 PM
Is their a genetic basis for being trans? Maybe if their is a genetic sequence that codes for "trans-ness" that can be found in humans, maybe the same genetic sequence could be found in other animals?

Yes... there are parts of the brain different in men and women...
in autopsies transsexual people had the brain parts of the gender they identify with.

hugs

what about an epigenetic mechanism where genes coding for the masculinization of the brain are "turned off" (I think the proper term might be "methylated") very early on in development (in the case of mtf).

Quote from: rachel89 on July 11, 2015, 01:53:06 PM
what about an epigenetic mechanism where genes coding for the masculinization of the brain are "turned off" (I think the proper term might be "methylated") very early on in development (in the case of mtf).

In the case of sexual orientation an epigenetic connection is presumed.

In the case of gender identity there might be a few different causes... one for example being trigger substances during brain development...

I smell a really dumb Jill-ism here...

Trannimals

*ducks*

I was tempted as soon as I saw the thread, but refrained. Think of how terrible it would be if you were a transgender dog. You wouldn't be able to put on a dog tutu by yourself to let your owners know that you were a trannimal. The upside would be no electrolysis though.

The other upside would be a free orchi if you have a responsible owner  ;D

Quote from: Jill F on July 11, 2015, 02:03:00 PM
I smell a really dumb Jill-ism here...

Trannimals

*ducks*

oh Jill, you're quite the character, i tell you that...

if i ever need a good show title for a premise, i'll contact you.  ;D

I don't believe animals have a gender identity like humans do. Their psychological process is completely different from ours. Putting our traits into animal behavior makes us no better if not worse than those that force us to abide by what genitals we were born with

Quote from: BenKenobi on July 11, 2015, 03:15:35 PM
I don't believe animals have a gender identity like humans do. Their psychological process is completely different from ours. Putting our traits into animal behavior makes us no better if not worse than those that force us to abide by what genitals we were born with

Well.. they seem to have an identity concerning their gender.

And this:

Quote from: Contravene on July 11, 2015, 05:36:49 AM
Many species actually do have social gender roles. Take lion prides for example where the male is head of the pride and the females are the hunters or wolves where the alpha male and female have different roles. Animals do have gender roles, they just aren't used as a way of stereotyping and degrading a certain gender like how humans typically use gender roles.

I believe there are transgender animals too and the first thing I thought of when I saw the question was hyenas. I remember learning about a particular type, spotted hyenas I think, where the females have the dominant, more masculine gender roles (as compared to other types of hyenas) and they even have genitals that resemble the male's. I wonder if it's possible that type of hyena evolved that way because the transgender members of the species branched off and formed their own group.

I find that a lot of dysphoria involves what I see in the mirror: the more hormones feminized my face, the less dysphoric I felt looking at myself. So I think that self-assessment of gender plays a large role in gender dysphoria.

I bring this up because very, very few animal species can recognize their own faces in a mirror. It's not even a universal trait among great apes. This mirror test is a way of measuring self-awareness. It may be that for gender identity to develop, an animal needs a high degree of self-awareness, and very few species have brains that meet that minimum requirement.

If I were looking for gender dysphoria in another species, I would look chimpanzees and bonobos. They probably have the necessary level of self-awareness to generate a gender identity. How that gender identity would present itself in the wild, however, is not clear. That's a question for a primatologist.

I found this a little while ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8psrsdyezkU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8psrsdyezkU)

The whole thing is interesting, but starting at the 10 minute mark, they are talking about some female cows acting like bulls.

Quote from: Laura_7 on July 11, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
Well.. they seem to have an identity concerning their gender.

And this:

Gender roles and identity are two different things.

Quote from: BenKenobi on July 11, 2015, 06:25:10 PM
Gender roles and identity are two different things.

Yes.

But both seem to be present.

And I'd say that they have some kind of feeling for their gender identity.
In many races a clearly distinct behaviour can be observed, regardless of human interpretation.

hugs

Quote from: Laura_7 on July 11, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
Well.. they seem to have an identity concerning their gender.

And this:

Non-human animals have a sex that governs behaviour. There are only a few animals that have been shown to demonstrate self-awareness, as in a consciousness of self. So while non-human animals appear to adhere to gendered roles, I highly doubt that they have a concept of gender.

Trans-fish are common.

http://toxics.usgs.gov/highlights/fish_endocrine_disruption.html

Quote from: Stochastic on July 11, 2015, 09:14:37 PM
Trans-fish are common.

http://toxics.usgs.gov/highlights/fish_endocrine_disruption.html

This study is about cases of intersex within a species. There are also a number of species that change gender sex due to certain environmental pressures. However, the question this thread poses, I believe, is whether non-human animals have a conscious understanding of gender similar to that of humans.

Quote from: Echo Eve on July 11, 2015, 07:52:58 PM
Non-human animals have a sex that governs behaviour. There are only a few animals that have been shown to demonstrate self-awareness, as in a consciousness of self. So while non-human animals appear to adhere to gendered roles, I highly doubt that they have a concept of gender.

Well... there are dogs that look left and right before crossing a street.
I have observed the same with a cat.

If looking into the eyes of a cat there seems to be a lot of what is associated with male energy/agressiveness or female energy/softness there with some...

some people say many animals are like young children....I'm of the opinion they are very much aware and self aware...
maybe not all but many...


Well imo the OP did not mention consiousness... just transness...

hugs